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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Who voted for Corbyn

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited September 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Who voted for Corbyn

Around 70,000 people who voted in the leadership election did NOT vote Labour in May’s general election. 40,000 of them voted Green. Fully 92% of these Green voters backed Mr Corbyn. We estimate that the other non-Labour voters were: Liberal Democrats: 10,000; Conservatives: 3,000; Ukip: 3,000; other parties 6,000; did not vote 8,000.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,437
    Primo
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814
    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    FPT
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    When can Charlie start his reign ? Should we petition Her Maj to retire ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,733
    edited September 2015
    FPT
    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I read Kellner's article this afternoon. A large part of the Green vote may come over to Labour.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    @HYUFD

    My impression one day before the second GOP debate is that currently Trump is sailing for the nomination and perhaps the presidency based on the strong polls he had over these past few days. The only flies in the ointment for Trump is Carson and Sanders, it speaks volumes that I read that the other campaigns and Wall Street are too terrified to attack him.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,969
    edited September 2015
    Been busy this afternoon/evening.

    Anything major happen?
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,399
    The unexplained mystery is where the 2010 David Miliband vote has gone, not much of it went to Kendall anyway.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited September 2015
    surbiton said:

    I read Kellner's article this afternoon. A large part of the Green vote may come over to Labour.

    I looked at the internals of the ICM poll, 23% of the Green vote already has, but 23% of 3% is peanuts, I would try and look if Corbyn has an impact in scotland, but as I said he's low risk low reward and I don't expect him to shift many votes in favour or against Labour.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Artist said:

    The unexplained mystery is where the 2010 David Miliband vote has gone, not much of it went to Kendall anyway.

    The Tories
  • Hungary is doing exactly what it should do... Look after Hungary and its people first .. This is entirely Merkels fault
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Been busy this afternoon/evening.

    Anything major happen?

    Just Surbiton demanding that Hungary should be thrown out of the EU for the usual reasons.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,092
    Can't stop, so I'll have to be quick.

    I note in the news today that Jeremy Corbyn is dissembling over whether he's an "In" or an "Out" for the EURef. I know that there are many sincere Outers on this board, so may I please prevail on you to urge Mr Corbyn to join you on the "Out" side. As a probable Inner, the guy makes my skin itch and, frankly, you're welcome to him...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,125
    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,437
    Speedy said:

    Been busy this afternoon/evening.

    Anything major happen?

    Just Surbiton demanding that Hungary should be thrown out of the EU for the usual reasons.
    they wont bow cravenly to guardian readers ?
  • Surbiton ... and we could simply close the tunnel
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    viewcode said:

    Can't stop, so I'll have to be quick.

    I note in the news today that Jeremy Corbyn is dissembling over whether he's an "In" or an "Out" for the EURef. I know that there are many sincere Outers on this board, so may I please prevail on you to urge Mr Corbyn to join you on the "Out" side. As a probable Inner, the guy makes my skin itch and, frankly, you're welcome to him...

    No problem, we take Corbyn and you can take Nick Clegg.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 858
    alex. said:

    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/

    This alone shows why you should never put a serial rebel as your leader.
    Diane, Sadiq, Luciana and Lisa have no excuse given their willingness to accept shadow cabinet positions or mayoral candidacy.
  • Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    None at all. Exactly the opposite in fact. As I said at the end of the last thread, the reason Hungary ended up in the mess in the first place is they actually tried to enforce the EU rules on asylum by trying to process the refugees at their first point of entry into the EU. And look at the thanks they have got for that. Of course the refugees don't want to be processed in Hungary because it is not as easy to claim asylum there as in Germany or other EU countries.
  • TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    Actually I think the biggest question I have regarding Hungary, is why there wasn't a fence there before. Surely, if you are going to have a massive free movement zone, you would want to make sure that all the external borders of that zone were strongly secured.
  • Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    I understand why the Commonwealth Realms would want to bring the association with the Crown to an end after Elizabeth dies. At the moment there is still a historical link to a different time: to WWII, the beginning of the Commonwealth and the Empire, and the Queen provides that sense of being the link and continuity for the transition to the modern world.

    Once she's gone, the justification for having a head of state that lives in an entirely different country in a different part of the world falls away almost completely.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,092
    edited September 2015
    Speedy said:

    viewcode said:

    Can't stop, so I'll have to be quick.

    I note in the news today that Jeremy Corbyn is dissembling over whether he's an "In" or an "Out" for the EURef. I know that there are many sincere Outers on this board, so may I please prevail on you to urge Mr Corbyn to join you on the "Out" side. As a probable Inner, the guy makes my skin itch and, frankly, you're welcome to him...

    No problem, we take Corbyn and you can take Nick Clegg.
    Zero sum game...:-)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,437
    edited September 2015

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    None at all. Exactly the opposite in fact. As I said at the end of the last thread, the reason Hungary ended up in the mess in the first place is they actually tried to enforce the EU rules on asylum by trying to process the refugees at their first point of entry into the EU. And look at the thanks they have got for that. Of course the refugees don't want to be processed in Hungary because it is not as easy to claim asylum there as in Germany or other EU countries.
    And Germany's approach has been disreputable.

    First to invite the world
    First to ignore its commitments to its neighbours
    First to close its borders
    First to threaten others to solve a problem it created
  • Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    None at all. Exactly the opposite in fact. As I said at the end of the last thread, the reason Hungary ended up in the mess in the first place is they actually tried to enforce the EU rules on asylum by trying to process the refugees at their first point of entry into the EU. And look at the thanks they have got for that. Of course the refugees don't want to be processed in Hungary because it is not as easy to claim asylum there as in Germany or other EU countries.
    And Germany's approach has been disreputable.

    First to invite the world
    First to ignore its commitments to its neighbours
    First to close its borders
    First to threaten others to solve a problem it created
    Agree entirely. If anyone it is Germany who should be thrown out of the EU for encouraging the breaking of EU rules.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,370
    Funny watching the Channel 4 News in which Mathew Paris and Will Self agree that the Corbyn experiment could unravel in weeks.

    The divergence between the Labour leadership and Parliamentary Party is just inherently and dangerously unstable. Note to comrades on pbCOM- I did point this a few weeks ago. Nick Palmer disagreed with me..Nick said that Cornbyn would not appoint the likes of McDonnell to a senior post.

    Most political parties have a leadership at odds with it's membership- after all most party members from any party are fruit loon cakes (and I put myself and my pb fraternity in that camp).

    But the beauty of the Tory leadership system is that it has automatic stabilisers in situ- i.e. any leader must have at least a substantial backing of his MP's. With Labour's system you throw out the whole process to the swivel eyed loonies- and god knows what they're capable of. Well we know....Corbyn and McDonnell.

    Labour did have the 35 MP bar to stop the party being taken over by ideological extremists. But thanks to Burnham's stupid gesture and the idiotic MP's who like to indulge in a spot of frivolity we now have Corbyn and McDonnell. Well done.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814
    edited September 2015
    Pauly said:

    alex. said:

    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/

    This alone shows why you should never put a serial rebel as your leader.
    Diane, Sadiq, Luciana and Lisa have no excuse given their willingness to accept shadow cabinet positions or mayoral candidacy.
    Well, they have no excuse unless they have a valid excuse. Shouldn't judge without knowing the reasons. I mean, it's hardly likely that Abbott didn't vote on principle, is it?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited September 2015

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    None at all. Exactly the opposite in fact. As I said at the end of the last thread, the reason Hungary ended up in the mess in the first place is they actually tried to enforce the EU rules on asylum by trying to process the refugees at their first point of entry into the EU. And look at the thanks they have got for that. Of course the refugees don't want to be processed in Hungary because it is not as easy to claim asylum there as in Germany or other EU countries.
    And Germany's approach has been disreputable.

    First to invite the world
    First to ignore its commitments to its neighbours
    First to close its borders
    First to threaten others to solve a problem it created
    Germans are not known for their intelligence but for following orders from clueless leaders.
    No debate, no ifs, no buts, just "following orders".
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015
    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    They could, at which point we shut the tunnel down.

    Now, how much grief do you think the French companies running the rail freight operation, 200,000+ business passengers commuting to and from their homes in Paris and London, and Eurotunnel shareholders would give to their government?

    a) A little,

    or

    b) A total shitload that would make M. Hollande wish he'd never been born?
  • TSE "under Ed Miliband’s leadership the Labour party membership became more left wing "

    Ed Miliband, f's up Labour for a generation. Stunning.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @JohnRentoul: Owen Smith, shadow cabinet minister, "didn't know" why Corbyn didn't sing the national anthem. Every hour http://t.co/exBWfFeT04
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    Hungary should be asked to leave the European Union, at least, temporarily until it complies with international laws.

    Didn't we just build a fence in Calais? Did I miss that? The super-articulate Hungarian bloke (minister?) on Today this morning should have pointed that out to Sarah which would have quelled her accusatory hectoring a bit.
    But "we" were clever to make the French think it was their responsibility. There was only a £12m contribution , I think.

    I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....
    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    None at all. Exactly the opposite in fact. As I said at the end of the last thread, the reason Hungary ended up in the mess in the first place is they actually tried to enforce the EU rules on asylum by trying to process the refugees at their first point of entry into the EU. And look at the thanks they have got for that. Of course the refugees don't want to be processed in Hungary because it is not as easy to claim asylum there as in Germany or other EU countries.
    And Germany's approach has been disreputable.

    First to invite the world
    First to ignore its commitments to its neighbours
    First to close its borders
    First to threaten others to solve a problem it created
    Agree entirely. If anyone it is Germany who should be thrown out of the EU for encouraging the breaking of EU rules.
    What rules?
    The EU doesn't have any rules.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    surbiton said:

    I read Kellner's article this afternoon. A large part of the Green vote may come over to Labour.

    The number going out the Labour Right door is four times higher than those coming through the Green door based on latest polls.

    And these Green votes are primarily concentrated in seats that Labour already hold, overwhelmingly in predictable London places like Islington, Stoke Newington, Shoreditch etc.

    Terrible positioning.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,437
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,492
    edited September 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Owen Smith, shadow cabinet minister, "didn't know" why Corbyn didn't sing the national anthem. Every hour http://t.co/exBWfFeT04

    because he's a bloody communist, that's why.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,395

    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    I understand why the Commonwealth Realms would want to bring the association with the Crown to an end after Elizabeth dies. At the moment there is still a historical link to a different time: to WWII, the beginning of the Commonwealth and the Empire, and the Queen provides that sense of being the link and continuity for the transition to the modern world.

    Once she's gone, the justification for having a head of state that lives in an entirely different country in a different part of the world falls away almost completely.
    A large chunk of my family lives in Canada. There is virtually zero chance of them getting rid of the monarchy as things stand. It's just not a political issue.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839

    because he's a bloody communist, that's why.

    The Russians never seemed to have a problem singning their National anthem
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,492
    Scott_P said:

    because he's a bloody communist, that's why.

    The Russians never seemed to have a problem singning their National anthem
    I have no doubt he'd sing the Russian Anthem...
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814
    SeanT said:

    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    I understand why the Commonwealth Realms would want to bring the association with the Crown to an end after Elizabeth dies. At the moment there is still a historical link to a different time: to WWII, the beginning of the Commonwealth and the Empire, and the Queen provides that sense of being the link and continuity for the transition to the modern world.

    Once she's gone, the justification for having a head of state that lives in an entirely different country in a different part of the world falls away almost completely.
    A large chunk of my family lives in Canada. There is virtually zero chance of them getting rid of the monarchy as things stand. It's just not a political issue.
    It is quite amusing how many republicans (wishfully?) think that support for the monarchy is vested entirely in the individuals who occupy the role. They don't really understand the concept, do they?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    chestnut said:

    surbiton said:

    I read Kellner's article this afternoon. A large part of the Green vote may come over to Labour.

    The number going out the Labour Right door is four times higher than those coming through the Green door based on latest polls.

    And these Green votes are primarily concentrated in seats that Labour already hold, overwhelmingly in predictable London places like Islington, Stoke Newington, Shoreditch etc.

    Terrible positioning.
    Nothing of the kind though.
    There has been only 1 poll, the ICM one, according to them 91% of 2015 CON voters still vote CON 3% going to LAB, 89% of 2015 LAB voters vote LAB 3% going to CON.

    Basically the first 3 parties hold their drink quite OK, even UKIP at 84% retention with 7% going CON and 9% going LAB, but the LD are at 67% with 10% going CON and 14% going LAB and the Greens at 58% with 23% going LAB and 10% going LD.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015

    Scott_P said:

    because he's a bloody communist, that's why.

    The Russians never seemed to have a problem singning their National anthem
    I have no doubt he'd sing the Russian Anthem...
    No doubt his fellow traveller on the road to Anti Britain, our old friend Ralph Milliband, would gleefully join him.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,370
    edited September 2015
    @SeanFear,

    Honestly, between thee and me, I will not divulge. But is part of you quite happy about the migrant chaos, and possibly hoping it all gets quite a bit worse. Because, (I think) you think, - this is only going to lead to BREXIT. Faced with the intoxicating choice of closing down borders, and knowing that it can be easily done, and shutting ourselves way from the chaos of Europe, voting OUT of the EU is a very easy choice.



    "I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....

    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?"
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,395
    edited September 2015
    alex. said:

    SeanT said:

    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    I understand why the Commonwealth Realms would want to bring the association with the Crown to an end after Elizabeth dies. At the moment there is still a historical link to a different time: to WWII, the beginning of the Commonwealth and the Empire, and the Queen provides that sense of being the link and continuity for the transition to the modern world.

    Once she's gone, the justification for having a head of state that lives in an entirely different country in a different part of the world falls away almost completely.
    A large chunk of my family lives in Canada. There is virtually zero chance of them getting rid of the monarchy as things stand. It's just not a political issue.
    It is quite amusing how many republicans (wishfully?) think that support for the monarchy is vested entirely in the individuals who occupy the role. They don't really understand the concept, do they?
    To be fair, I don't think Canadians are hugely enthusiastic about the monarchy, either - it's just not an issue. Apart from the Quebecois, no one can be bothered to go through the enormous political turmoil to constitutionally transform a country which is doing very nicely, as it is, thankyou.

    I don't believe any of the major Canadian parties is proposing a referendum, for instance.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814
    I don't really get this criticism of Corbyn and the anthem. We know why he didn't sing it (assuming he knows the words). It's because he's an arch republican. It may have made him look massively out of place, and republicanism may not exactly be a vote winner, but when he's just been elected on a platform of unspun authenticity he's hardly likely to act any differently. The point is he should never have been there in the first place. And that's Labour's problem.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    alex. said:

    I don't really get this criticism of Corbyn and the anthem. We know why he didn't sing it (assuming he knows the words). It's because he's an arch republican.

    Do republicans not sing anthems?
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    Scott_P said:

    alex. said:

    I don't really get this criticism of Corbyn and the anthem. We know why he didn't sing it (assuming he knows the words). It's because he's an arch republican.

    Do republicans not sing anthems?
    Maybe they just dont sing them if they are odes to Royalty rather than the country?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814
    SeanT said:

    alex. said:

    SeanT said:

    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    I understand why the Commonwealth Realms would want to bring the association with the Crown to an end after Elizabeth dies. At the moment there is still a historical link to a different time: to WWII, the beginning of the Commonwealth and the Empire, and the Queen provides that sense of being the link and continuity for the transition to the modern world.

    Once she's gone, the justification for having a head of state that lives in an entirely different country in a different part of the world falls away almost completely.
    A large chunk of my family lives in Canada. There is virtually zero chance of them getting rid of the monarchy as things stand. It's just not a political issue.
    It is quite amusing how many republicans (wishfully?) think that support for the monarchy is vested entirely in the individuals who occupy the role. They don't really understand the concept, do they?
    To be fair, I don't think Canadians are hugely enthusiastic about the monarchy, either - it's just not an issue. Apart from the Quebecois, no one can be bothered to go through the enormous political turmoil to constitutionally transform a country which is doing very nicely, as it is, thankyou.

    I don't believe any of the major Canadian parties is proposing a referendum, for instance.
    Not suggesting they are. But just as support isn't vested in individuals, so opposition won't be fomented by individuals.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,125
    tyson said:

    @SeanFear,

    Honestly, between thee and me, I will not divulge. But is part of you quite happy about the migrant chaos, and possibly hoping it all gets quite a bit worse. Because, (I think) you think, - this is only going to lead to BREXIT. Faced with the intoxicating choice of closing down borders, and knowing that it can be easily done, and shutting ourselves way from the chaos of Europe, voting OUT of the EU is a very easy choice.

    "I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....

    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?"


    I can't say I'm happy about it, but there's no doubt it does help the cause of Brexit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,467
    Speedy said:

    @HYUFD

    My impression one day before the second GOP debate is that currently Trump is sailing for the nomination and perhaps the presidency based on the strong polls he had over these past few days. The only flies in the ointment for Trump is Carson and Sanders, it speaks volumes that I read that the other campaigns and Wall Street are too terrified to attack him.

    MSNBC/Telemundo/Marist- General Election
    vs. Clinton

    Clinton 49%
    Bush 45%

    Clinton 50%
    Rubio 44%

    Clinton 52%
    Cruz 41%

    Clinton 53%
    Trump 40%

    “Among Latino voters, Clinton outpaces Trump by 47 points, Cruz by 33 points, and Rubio and Bush by 30 points. President Barack Obama carried the Latino vote in 2012 over Republican nominee Mitt Romney by 44 points.”
    vs. Biden

    Biden 50%
    Rubio 42%

    Biden 50%
    Bush 42%

    Biden 54%
    Cruz 39%

    Biden 56%
    Trump 38%
    http://maristpoll.marist.edu/914-decision-2016-clinton-leads-gop-rivals-bush-most-competitive-against-clinton/
  • Scott_P said:

    alex. said:

    I don't really get this criticism of Corbyn and the anthem. We know why he didn't sing it (assuming he knows the words). It's because he's an arch republican.

    Do republicans not sing anthems?
    When it is called God Save the Queen, I can understand why they might be reluctant to endorse that particular sentiment.

    I guess they could mime or cross their fingers!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight
  • alex. said:

    SeanT said:

    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    I understand why the Commonwealth Realms would want to bring the association with the Crown to an end after Elizabeth dies. At the moment there is still a historical link to a different time: to WWII, the beginning of the Commonwealth and the Empire, and the Queen provides that sense of being the link and continuity for the transition to the modern world.

    Once she's gone, the justification for having a head of state that lives in an entirely different country in a different part of the world falls away almost completely.
    A large chunk of my family lives in Canada. There is virtually zero chance of them getting rid of the monarchy as things stand. It's just not a political issue.
    It is quite amusing how many republicans (wishfully?) think that support for the monarchy is vested entirely in the individuals who occupy the role. They don't really understand the concept, do they?
    You misunderstand me. I support the continuation of the monarchy in Britain. I don't profess to have any localised knowledge of what the other realms feel, I just expressed a thought that I could understand why the continuation of a British monarch as head of state of a country halfway across the world does, as time passes, feel more and more like an anachronism.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Speedy said:


    Nothing of the kind though.
    There has been only 1 poll, the ICM one,

    Comres have also polled,

    11-12% of Labour's c.9.4m vote is much much higher than 23% gain from the Greens 1.2m or so

    The Green votes are also overwhelmingly located in areas that are useless to Labour as they already hold the seats. It applies in 21 of the 22 top areas for the Greens, and 16 of the seats are in London.

    The Green vote is basically useless to Labour.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,519
    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996
    Long time lurker here, was a poster many years ago for a short stint but I lost interest in politics some time ago. Dipped my toe in over the summer again....I think being in my 30's has made me more bitter and cynical, so better able to keep up with things without throwing my hands up in despair.

    One of the big problems Corbyn has is that a lot of his supporters seem to live entirely on the Labour parties greatest hits, there is very little forward thinking and instead they try to take government back to how things were in the good old days...the 1950's. State owned everything, over funded NHS, lots of manufacturing, casual racism...well some of it was good to them anyway. They want to be voted in on the strength of Attlees work all those years ago, with little reference to the execrable Blair and Brown in between.
    It's like the socialists in the UK are now the reactionaries, the NHS has to stay state owned, run and controlled in every fashion; the BBC has to stay exactly as it is even though it is falling behind US tv really badly now and people are stopping paying the licence fee in droves (in the group of people I know, I am the exception in paying); the trains have to be state owned even though they were a joke and passenger numbers were falling for decades. Surely there are some new ideas going around?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814

    Scott_P said:

    alex. said:

    I don't really get this criticism of Corbyn and the anthem. We know why he didn't sing it (assuming he knows the words). It's because he's an arch republican.

    Do republicans not sing anthems?
    When it is called God Save the Queen, I can understand why they might be reluctant to endorse that particular sentiment.

    I guess they could mime or cross their fingers!
    It's pretty easy to spot a mime, I doubt the criticism would have lessened. And if he just feels uncomfortable with it, crossing the fingers won't help. None of this is to say that it isn't a vote loser, just it is the republicanism that is the problem not the failure to sing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,467
    edited September 2015
    Dair said:

    FPT

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:


    Wills and Kate are pretty popular with the younger generation, certainly more so than most politicians, I would say it is more likely than not, after all Australia, New Zealand and Canada still have the monarchy as their Head of State even now. Of course yougov this week had No still ahead in any new indyref too

    Australia now has a conservative republican PM. Last time, Howard split the republican vote by muddying the waters and the goats fell for it !
    Charles will pretty much finish the monarchy in Australia, Canada and possibly New Zealand. It might end it in a couple of the Caribbean realms too.

    Eventually it will come down to a rump of some parts of the British Isles and the various tax havens the UK taxpayer subsidises.
    Charles may not even get to be King as the Queen could outlive him. Charles is popular enough anyway to keep it going for the handful of years he might take over the throne before Wills and Kate give it another boost again. Australia is certainly not going to vote for President Kerry Packer or Rudd or Turnbull over them
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996
    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight

    I'm not sure I care that he didn't to honest, it means he is holding to his principles at least. Just that his principles are outdated, such as singing the Red Flag.
  • hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
  • Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight

    Well it won't matter to Monbiot but that's not the point, plenty of elderly labour supporters will be shaking their head in disgust. The % of labour voters that read the Guardian will be tiny, labour has completely forgotten and/or ignored who votes for them.

  • alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    alex. said:

    I don't really get this criticism of Corbyn and the anthem. We know why he didn't sing it (assuming he knows the words). It's because he's an arch republican.

    Do republicans not sing anthems?
    When it is called God Save the Queen, I can understand why they might be reluctant to endorse that particular sentiment.

    I guess they could mime or cross their fingers!
    It's pretty easy to spot a mime, I doubt the criticism would have lessened. And if he just feels uncomfortable with it, crossing the fingers won't help. None of this is to say that it isn't a vote loser, just it is the republicanism that is the problem not the failure to sing.
    Easy to spot a mine?

  • glwglw Posts: 4,232
    HaroldO said:

    It's like the socialists in the UK are now the reactionaries, the NHS has to stay state owned, run and controlled in every fashion; the BBC has to stay exactly as it is even though it is falling behind US tv really badly now and people are stopping paying the licence fee in droves (in the group of people I know, I am the exception in paying); the trains have to be state owned even though they were a joke and passenger numbers were falling for decades. Surely there are some new ideas going around?

    Those are very good questions, unfortunately such questioning of dogma only gets about 4.5% of the vote in the "modern" Labour Party, everybody else is either rerunning ideas from 20 years ago, 40 years ago, or it seems 140 or so years ago.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @JohnRentoul: “It makes me long for Ed Miliband’s imaginary friends”: union official at TUC to @GaryGibbonBlog http://t.co/p1hVALI2cj
  • HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight

    I'm not sure I care that he didn't to honest, it means he is holding to his principles at least. Just that his principles are outdated, such as singing the Red Flag.
    I am certainly more concerned that his appearance conveyed more of lack of respect to the occasion than his decision not to sing.

    And as for his behaviour with the bags of sandwiches - well that was yet another bad decision in a week full of them. Even if he was offered them, to have accepted food intended for veterans and volunteers is just utterly wrong.

    So it is that and his scruffy appearance that showed more disrespect in my eyes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,467
    edited September 2015

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    Indeed, the most brilliant move the monarchy ever made was importing Diana's genes into the royal family. If the heirs of Charles and Camilla had been the future line it may well have been gone in a generation or two, however, Wills and Kate are A++ listers worldwide and have ensured the Royals have got some Kennedy glamour to take them forward. Given a choice between Wills, Kate and Harry, who are cool, charismatic, good looking and charming and Corbyn, who looks like a tramp, wears a vest and has a temper and is the most prominent republican in the country now there really is no contest!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 23,977
    edited September 2015
    alex. said:

    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/

    I guess we can end the myth that the DUP/UUP won't vote with a Corbynite Labour to defeat the Conservatives then.

    EDIT: although even if they all had voted with the opposition, the measure still would have passed comfortably.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996
    glw said:


    Those are very good questions, unfortunately such questioning of dogma only gets about 4.5% of the vote in the "modern" Labour Party, everybody else is either rerunning ideas from 20 years ago, 40 years ago, or it seems 140 or so years ago.

    They are casting their eyes back to a time that cannot exist again, in their own way they are turning into the UKIP of the left; wanting an idyllic time again to return. They may as well check out Famous Five books and drink ginger beer in their gardens....their well maintained gardens of course.
    Corbyn reminds me of Harold Steptoe in the two episodes where he is campaigning for the Labour party. Desperate to depose the Tories and sure he has the moral right to as well, ignoring the practicalities that people don't want to vote for it....even less so now.
  • On topic, it might turn out that Ed Miliband was the Labour leader that led to the destruction of Labour then?

    Oh joy.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,519
    Just reading the utter nonsense that a privy councillor has to say! 'You will not know or understand of any manner of things to be attempted, done or spoken against her majesty's person, honour, crown or dignity royal, but you will lett and withstand the same to the uttermost of your power, and either cause it to be revealed to her majesty herself, or to such of her privy council as shall advertise her majesty of the same.

    You will in all things to be moved, treated and debated in council, faithfully and truly declare your mind and opinion, according to your heart and conscience; and will keep secret all matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in council'!!!!!!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,492
    I'd love to know where Corbyn does his shopping.......
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,370
    I don't think the Hungarians are breaking any law. I think you made a quite pertinent point the other day- after suffering decades of Communist Totalitarianism it is hardly surprising the East Europeans are not quite behaving now as the Islington set.

    Forget nuances, forget economic debate, the migrant crisis is going to provide enough nourishment for the Brexit campaign to win, and win handsomely.
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    @SeanFear,

    Honestly, between thee and me, I will not divulge. But is part of you quite happy about the migrant chaos, and possibly hoping it all gets quite a bit worse. Because, (I think) you think, - this is only going to lead to BREXIT. Faced with the intoxicating choice of closing down borders, and knowing that it can be easily done, and shutting ourselves way from the chaos of Europe, voting OUT of the EU is a very easy choice.

    "I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....

    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    "


    I can't say I'm happy about it, but there's no doubt it does help the cause of Brexit.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015

    I'd love to know where Corbyn does his shopping.......

    'Maison Tramp' for clothes. The skip behind Lidl for food. Still on £128,000+ he can afford to eat well, and maybe buy a decent suit.

    Though quite why he hasn't done that already on the salary+expenses your average MP of 30 years standing must have raked in, is a complete mystery.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 23,977
    edited September 2015
    Although Lady Hermon voted for the measure as well as Carswell whilst the UUP did not.

    That's interesting. I always thought she was an arch-wet, and very anti-Conservative.

    Still impressed with the whipping operation: 323 Conservative MPs out of 331 (or 330 if you don't count Bercow) is darn good.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,839
    @JGForsyth: That Corbyn won’t sing the national anthem is 1 of the 1st things that most voters are going 2 know about him, can’t think that helps Labour
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,519

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
  • tyson said:

    I don't think the Hungarians are breaking any law. I think you made a quite pertinent point the other day- after suffering decades of Communist Totalitarianism it is hardly surprising the East Europeans are not quite behaving now as the Islington set.

    Forget nuances, forget economic debate, the migrant crisis is going to provide enough nourishment for the Brexit campaign to win, and win handsomely.

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    @SeanFear,

    Honestly, between thee and me, I will not divulge. But is part of you quite happy about the migrant chaos, and possibly hoping it all gets quite a bit worse. Because, (I think) you think, - this is only going to lead to BREXIT. Faced with the intoxicating choice of closing down borders, and knowing that it can be easily done, and shutting ourselves way from the chaos of Europe, voting OUT of the EU is a very easy choice.

    "I am not sure why the French play ball here. They could easily say, you can build a fence at the mouth of the tunnel and on the beaches of Dover, Hastings.....

    What law do you think the Hungarians are breaking?
    "
    I can't say I'm happy about it, but there's no doubt it does help the cause of Brexit.



    Why aren't you happy about it? The last year or so has shown exactly what some of us have been complaining about for ages.

    Would you join today? Of course not, OUT is the only sensible answer if people are prepared to put silly tribalism and obduracy to one side.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,362
    watford30 said:

    I'd love to know where Corbyn does his shopping.......

    'Maison Tramp' for clothes. The skip behind Lidl for food. Still on £128,000+ he can afford to eat well, and maybe buy a decent suit.

    Though quite why he hasn't done that already on the salary+expenses your average MP of 30 years standing must have raked in, is a complete mystery.
    He liked his previous look. Sometimes people just don't eat well or dress well, despite all the opportunity to do so, he seems naturally frugal as a person.

    What I must know is what he spends on haircuts, that's the important question.

    alex. said:

    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/

    I guess we can end the myth that the DUP/UUP won't vote with a Corbynite Labour to defeat the Conservatives then.

    I never quite got why they wouldn't - they may well despise Corbyn's positioning on Ireland, but what harm voting against the government, futilely, on other matters?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,467
    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
    Really? 70% wanted to keep a monarchy for ever according to a Sky poll just last week, with Prince William even more popular than the Queen

    http://news.sky.com/story/1549136/sky-data-most-britons-want-to-retain-monarchy
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,335
    I haven't caught up on the news in the last few hours so don't know if he did, but why didn't Corbyn find a beggar with that sandwich? Would have looked better than Ed.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,232
    edited September 2015
    HaroldO said:

    They are casting their eyes back to a time that cannot exist again, in their own way they are turning into the UKIP of the left; wanting an idyllic time again to return. They may as well check out Famous Five books and drink ginger beer in their gardens....their well maintained gardens of course.

    I previously thought that Miliband was in danger of turning Labour into something akin to the Tea Party (not serious, mad about everything), and now with the ludicrous voting system and nominations of the leadership election that has been more or less fulfilled.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,733

    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight

    Well it won't matter to Monbiot but that's not the point, plenty of elderly labour supporters will be shaking their head in disgust. The % of labour voters that read the Guardian will be tiny, labour has completely forgotten and/or ignored who votes for them.

    Plenty of patriotic immigrants, recent and not so recent, and perhaps Labour supporters hitherto, will be furious also.

    That's just one element of the bonkersness of Jezza's Lab.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,519
    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
    Really? 70% wanted to keep a monarchy for ever according to a Sky poll just last week, with Prince William even more popular than the Queen

    http://news.sky.com/story/1549136/sky-data-most-britons-want-to-retain-monarchy
    There are plenty of you tube clips for starters about royal family misdemeanors. I simply don't accept from first principles people having positions by accident of birth. hereditary peers are another thing that are a complete anachronism to me in our unwritten constitution.
  • hunchman said:

    Just reading the utter nonsense that a privy councillor has to say! 'You will not know or understand of any manner of things to be attempted, done or spoken against her majesty's person, honour, crown or dignity royal, but you will lett and withstand the same to the uttermost of your power, and either cause it to be revealed to her majesty herself, or to such of her privy council as shall advertise her majesty of the same.

    You will in all things to be moved, treated and debated in council, faithfully and truly declare your mind and opinion, according to your heart and conscience; and will keep secret all matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in council'!!!!!!

    Quite right. It's this just sort of unchanged arcane language, dating back centuries, that reminds us both of the continuity and stability of our political heritage, and our non-radical approach to gradually evolving a framework of practical constitutional governance.

    That makes me proud to be British.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996
    glw said:


    I previously thought that Miliband was in danger of turning Labour into something akin to the Tea Party (not serious, mad about everything), and now with the ludicrous voting system and nominations of the leadership election that has been more or less fulfilled.

    Good point, the Labour party seem to have embraced their own Tea Party to their bosom and let them run rampant. Can this last in the long term? Can a party be run on hate alone?
    I am a dull centrist that has never settled on one party, but I cannot see myself voting for Corbyn unless he compromises massively on several points....which would get him branded as a "Red Tory" by his own supporters and a tar and feathering for his efforts.
    Labour can no longer chase votes, they have to lecture people into voting for them...which is just what the British people love, being told they are wrong.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,604
    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight

    It will really matter if there is any footage of Corbyn singing a rebel song with gusto....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,362
    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
    Significant milestones will also magnify such coverage, it is hardly an everyday occurrence at that level even if it goes over the top.

    That doesn't alter the fact that the British public show no significant appetite, at the present time, to change our system. Railing against the 'mainstream media' doesn't change that, and like most uses of that phrase is downright insulting to the public as it presupposes huge numbers don't really believe things they indicate they are (either in polling or in the fact that there is no popular republican movement among our political classes etc), they are just fooled all the time. It treats people like infants. The 'alternative media' will definitely show a different picture of the monarchy, as is their right, and there is definitely a market for it, you may think it is absolutely the truth in its depiction of the monarchy, but it doesn't make it reflective of a widespread desire to get rid of it - if it were, anti-monarchical sentiment would be much more visible no matter how much 'the establishment' tried to prevent it, as this is a free country and people can show it as much as they like.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,467
    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
    Really? 70% wanted to keep a monarchy for ever according to a Sky poll just last week, with Prince William even more popular than the Queen

    http://news.sky.com/story/1549136/sky-data-most-britons-want-to-retain-monarchy
    There are plenty of you tube clips for starters about royal family misdemeanors. I simply don't accept from first principles people having positions by accident of birth. hereditary peers are another thing that are a complete anachronism to me in our unwritten constitution.
    Very interesting, but at the end of the day if the future of the monarchy is Wills and Kate and Harry and the future of republicanism is Jeremy Corbyn there is only one winner and it is not Jezza!!
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,814
    kle4 said:

    watford30 said:

    I'd love to know where Corbyn does his shopping.......

    'Maison Tramp' for clothes. The skip behind Lidl for food. Still on £128,000+ he can afford to eat well, and maybe buy a decent suit.

    Though quite why he hasn't done that already on the salary+expenses your average MP of 30 years standing must have raked in, is a complete mystery.
    He liked his previous look. Sometimes people just don't eat well or dress well, despite all the opportunity to do so, he seems naturally frugal as a person.

    What I must know is what he spends on haircuts, that's the important question.

    alex. said:

    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/

    I guess we can end the myth that the DUP/UUP won't vote with a Corbynite Labour to defeat the Conservatives then.

    I never quite got why they wouldn't - they may well despise Corbyn's positioning on Ireland, but what harm voting against the government, futilely, on other matters?
    I think that people still haven't fully cottoned on to the implications of the Fixed Term Parliament Act (I still remain mystified as to why they didn't make it an act to cover only one Parliament, since its primary motivation was to ensure a stable Coalition Government). Traditionally a PM could always call a confidence motion on important legislation (think Maastrict) as a last resort to bring rebels into line and put small parties on the spot. The FTPA has arguably robbed him of that power.
  • HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
    Really? 70% wanted to keep a monarchy for ever according to a Sky poll just last week, with Prince William even more popular than the Queen

    http://news.sky.com/story/1549136/sky-data-most-britons-want-to-retain-monarchy
    70% said they wanted Britain to remain a mnarchy forever. But I think the reality is most people don't care enough to want to get rid of it.


  • hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Well well well. As a fellow republican I'm delighted that Corbyn didn't sing god save the queen. One of the few things alongside his commitment to more allotments that I agree with him on! Bravo!

    Republicanism and radical socialism - two ideas which are equally unpopular with the British public. I am not sure either should be looking for solace from the other.
    You'd do well to read some of the alternative media on the royal family and not take hook line and sinker what the msm in this country say my friend! Lat Wednesday was one of the worst royal family propaganda days I can recall with the mainstream media in this country.
    Sorry but you are simply ignoring reality. And the alternative media is no more accurate than any other kind. - unless of course you believe that 9/11 was an inside job or other such outlandish conspiracy theories.
  • Looking at the Canadian polls on wiki their election result is likely to be even crazier than we thought ours was going to be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2015

    Conservatives could still be the largest party with the NDP only a handful behind - could be possibly propped up by the Liberals? In any case, looks likely there will be another election soon (though we were saying that in early May!)

    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,362

    hunchman said:

    Just reading the utter nonsense that a privy councillor has to say! 'You will not know or understand of any manner of things to be attempted, done or spoken against her majesty's person, honour, crown or dignity royal, but you will lett and withstand the same to the uttermost of your power, and either cause it to be revealed to her majesty herself, or to such of her privy council as shall advertise her majesty of the same.

    You will in all things to be moved, treated and debated in council, faithfully and truly declare your mind and opinion, according to your heart and conscience; and will keep secret all matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in council'!!!!!!

    Quite right. It's this just sort of unchanged arcane language, dating back centuries, that reminds us both of the continuity and stability of our political heritage, and our non-radical approach to gradually evolving a framework of practical constitutional governance.

    That makes me proud to be British.
    I wouldn't go quite that far, but I do like the gradual evolution of our constitutional governance and how that is reflected in our traditions (though sadly the gradual evolution does not seem anymore sufficient given the pressures the Union is under), and such, faintly silly, arcane terminology is harmless.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,232
    HaroldO said:

    Good point, the Labour party seem to have embraced their own Tea Party to their bosom and let them run rampant. Can this last in the long term? Can a party be run on hate alone?

    I would hope the answer is no, but then you look at Greece or Trump in the US and wonder whether people are stupid enough to go for it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,362

    Looking at the Canadian polls on wiki their election result is likely to be even crazier than we thought ours was going to be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2015

    Conservatives could still be the largest party with the NDP only a handful behind - could be possibly propped up by the Liberals? In any case, looks likely there will be another election soon (though we were saying that in early May!)

    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html

    Con largest party after being in power for 9 years and as many elections as they've had would surely be an impressive result
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,335
    I don't think I've ever looked forward to a PMQs as much as I'm looking forward to tomorrow's. This is the best politics I've seen in ages; thank you Labour!
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,043
    I see the English clubs in Europe are carrying on from last season results - crap.
  • alex. said:

    kle4 said:

    watford30 said:

    I'd love to know where Corbyn does his shopping.......

    'Maison Tramp' for clothes. The skip behind Lidl for food. Still on £128,000+ he can afford to eat well, and maybe buy a decent suit.

    Though quite why he hasn't done that already on the salary+expenses your average MP of 30 years standing must have raked in, is a complete mystery.
    He liked his previous look. Sometimes people just don't eat well or dress well, despite all the opportunity to do so, he seems naturally frugal as a person.

    What I must know is what he spends on haircuts, that's the important question.

    alex. said:

    FPT:

    Think this might be the list of non-voters (exc speaker, Sinn Fein, Tellers). Guessing that Reeves and Pickles are paired?

    Couple of Shadow Cabinet members and the Mayoral candidate in there.

    Abbott, Diane (Labour)
    Berger, Luciana (Labour (Co-op))
    Brake, Tom (Liberal Democrat)
    Dakin, Nic (Labour)
    Danczuk, Simon (Labour)
    Day, Martyn (Scottish National Party)
    Debbonaire, Thangam (Labour)
    Ellman, Louise (Labour (Co-op))
    Griffith, Nia (Labour)
    Hamilton, Fabian (Labour)
    Kaufman, Sir Gerald (Labour)
    Khan, Sadiq (Labour)
    Kinahan, Danny (Ulster Unionist Party)
    Lewell-Buck, Emma (Labour)
    Lewis, Ivan (Labour)
    Mc Nally, John (Scottish National Party)
    McDonnell, Alasdair (Social Democratic & Labour Party)
    Nandy, Lisa (Labour)
    O'Hara, Brendan (Scottish National Party)
    Percy, Andrew (Conservative)
    Pickles, Eric (Conservative)
    Reeves, Rachel (Labour)
    Shah, Naz (Labour)
    Wilson, Phil (Labour)
    Wilson, Sammy (Democratic Unionist Party)

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/666/

    I guess we can end the myth that the DUP/UUP won't vote with a Corbynite Labour to defeat the Conservatives then.

    I never quite got why they wouldn't - they may well despise Corbyn's positioning on Ireland, but what harm voting against the government, futilely, on other matters?
    I think that people still haven't fully cottoned on to the implications of the Fixed Term Parliament Act (I still remain mystified as to why they didn't make it an act to cover only one Parliament, since its primary motivation was to ensure a stable Coalition Government). Traditionally a PM could always call a confidence motion on important legislation (think Maastrict) as a last resort to bring rebels into line and put small parties on the spot. The FTPA has arguably robbed him of that power.
    The confidence motion was little different to a three line whip.

    But I agree, the FTPA is not designed for governments bringing this type of motion.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited September 2015

    Scott_P said:

    @iankatz1000: Tonight we're asking whether it matters that @jeremycorbyn didn't sing the national anthem with @GeorgeMonbiot + @jennirsl #newsnight

    It will really matter if there is any footage of Corbyn singing a rebel song with gusto....
    Well typing 'corbyn singing' into Google, throws up a stream of clips of him singing The Red Flag in a pub.

    He must have lost his voice at the weekend. Yes, that sounds about right as a poor excuse, for a pathetic man.
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