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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pressure mounts on Osborne’s tax credit plan

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited October 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pressure mounts on Osborne’s tax credit plan

Me for @TheTimes: Cameron must choose. His one nation mission or cuts in tax credits http://t.co/cPIc5UzO7M pic.twitter.com/mLxSYFsSPf

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Comments

  • Tax credit changes should be tweaked perhaps but they should still happen. They are a punitive cap on aspiration causing a marginal tax rate that would be viewed as unthinkable on anyone else.

    Smooth the transition so people don't lose out and the changes in tax credits coincide with the increase in living wage rates would be one solution.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    Keep pumping him the deflating balloon of a fruitless campaign against government subsidising low wages - I'm sure it'll be as successful as the stop the bedroom tax one.

    Dearie me.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857

    Tax credit changes should be tweaked perhaps but they should still happen. They are a punitive cap on aspiration causing a marginal tax rate that would be viewed as unthinkable on anyone else.

    Smooth the transition so people don't lose out and the changes in tax credits coincide with the increase in living wage rates would be one solution.

    Agreed
  • Tax credit changes should be tweaked perhaps but they should still happen. They are a punitive cap on aspiration causing a marginal tax rate that would be viewed as unthinkable on anyone else.

    Smooth the transition so people don't lose out and the changes in tax credits coincide with the increase in living wage rates would be one solution.

    A U-turn, in other words. It's going to happen, for sure.

    Osborne does not fear Labour, of course, but he does fear not being the next PM.

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    *yawn*
    If the thread headers keep banging this drum it might just make a noise, eh?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,841
    edited October 2015
    Danny565 Posts: 3,073
    July 8
    I suspect this Budget will go down as the biggest mismatch between initial hype and long-term reputation, since Brown's 2007 Budget (the initial hype being people noticing a cut in basic income tax, before everyone noticed the scrapping of the 10p band later on).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.
  • Hmmm... I don't think an article, even an article backed up by a tweet, by Tim Montgomerie really counts as 'the pressure mounts'.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 Posts: 3,073
    July 8
    I suspect this Budget will go down as the biggest mismatch between initial hype and long-term reputation, since Brown's 2007 Budget (the initial hype being people noticing a cut in basic income tax, before everyone noticed the scrapping of the 10p band later on).
    Why are you repeating your post from July?
    I'd have thought you'd have wanted it buried at sea instead as it's still complete bollocks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2015
    Carry on Osborne.

    Higher wages, lower taxes, fewer subsidies is the right way.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    edited October 2015

    Hmmm... I don't think an article, even an article backed up by a tweet, by Tim Montgomerie really counts as 'the pressure mounts'.

    But what if - gasp ! - Fraser Nelson join in - will there be a sitting of Corbra ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
  • The blanchflower of the right... now that is pressure.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    The correct headline for this threader should be "The pressure kind of fizzles"

    Because that is the case. Most people don't read the Times (though they should, especially the Travel Section). Most people don't watch Question Time (they're right to not do so). Most of all, most people don't get Child Tax Credits.

    Will the *pressure* have any effect? Meh. Perhaps. But even if it does it will be easily deflated with some minor, pointless tweaking. The frivolous attention of the social justice warriors will move on.

    NEXT.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    Of course yet another problem for the Treasury is that that damn stupid triple lock and zero inflation means that the cost of pensions in real terms is going up by the full 2.5%. If the BoE were meeting its targets this would be more like 0.5%.

    The pressure this puts on the welfare budget is largely being borne by our working poor. We have gone way too far down this road already.
  • DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    The sums would have added up better without the gratuitous cut in corporation tax.

  • Tax credit changes should be tweaked perhaps but they should still happen. They are a punitive cap on aspiration causing a marginal tax rate that would be viewed as unthinkable on anyone else.

    Smooth the transition so people don't lose out and the changes in tax credits coincide with the increase in living wage rates would be one solution.

    A U-turn, in other words. It's going to happen, for sure.

    Osborne does not fear Labour, of course, but he does fear not being the next PM.

    A u-turn would be abolishing reforms to tax credits. Tweaking reforms so that they're better implemented should always be the responsibility of a sensible government not something to be avoided for the curse of being accused of a u-turn.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
  • DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    The sums would have added up better without the gratuitous cut in corporation tax.

    How would the sums have added up for businesses if they were expected to increase pay without a cut in tax?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    It may have a lot to do with Lansley and his half baked reforms but it is certainly adding to the pressure. The NHS is going to need more money. It is inevitable.
  • Danny565 said:

    Danny565 Posts: 3,073
    July 8
    I suspect this Budget will go down as the biggest mismatch between initial hype and long-term reputation, since Brown's 2007 Budget (the initial hype being people noticing a cut in basic income tax, before everyone noticed the scrapping of the 10p band later on).


    There'll be a U-turn because GO wants to be PM. Beyond that, Labour's total unelectability makes even this issue a non-story.

  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    The sums would have added up better without the gratuitous cut in corporation tax.

    Do you not believe in the Laffer curve? And the tooth fairy? And Father Christmas? You'll be telling me you don't believe in McDonnell next but that Grinch is all too real.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    I don't think he'll change. Far better to get the nasty medicine out of the way in 2015 than much later. In 2019 -2020 (if all goes right) he can say "look we balanced the books" - just in time for the general election. This is the Tory trump card (as well as substantially increasing the minimum wage) - Osborne is not going to risk losing it.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2015
    DavidL said:

    Of course yet another problem for the Treasury is that that damn stupid triple lock and zero inflation means that the cost of pensions in real terms is going up by the full 2.5%. If the BoE were meeting its targets this would be more like 0.5%.

    The pressure this puts on the welfare budget is largely being borne by our working poor. We have gone way too far down this road already.

    Doesn't the inflation figure have a very positive income on government debt restructuring whilst suppressing public sector pensions and putting more spending money (real terms) in the hands of the majority, driving consumption, employment and tax revenue?

    That said, pensioners do seem to be getting a particularly good deal. I'd imagine that many are informally passing it on to children and grandchildren etc.
  • Tax credit changes should be tweaked perhaps but they should still happen. They are a punitive cap on aspiration causing a marginal tax rate that would be viewed as unthinkable on anyone else.

    Smooth the transition so people don't lose out and the changes in tax credits coincide with the increase in living wage rates would be one solution.

    A U-turn, in other words. It's going to happen, for sure.

    Osborne does not fear Labour, of course, but he does fear not being the next PM.

    A u-turn would be abolishing reforms to tax credits. Tweaking reforms so that they're better implemented should always be the responsibility of a sensible government not something to be avoided for the curse of being accused of a u-turn.

    A U-ey is a U-ey, but is usually presented as a tweak. I agree that this is how GO will present this U-turn.

  • SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.
    I voted UKIP at the Euro election last year.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634
    edited October 2015
    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    I agree that GO is in a difficult place but I suspect he consoles himself with the thought that it would have been a lot more difficulter had Labour shown the slightest semblance of competence. I do think however that he will find some kind of rabbit in his hat although it might be a small rabbit in a large hat. He'll still be thinking "5 years is a long time" but it's doubtful whether, if things still aren't working out, he'll then still be able to blame Labour.

    Above practically anything else he must kill the tax credit dragon for the long term good of the country. It is truly asinine.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Do you not see it as an advantage that those ministers can therefore start speaking freely earlier? Build an independent platform and a public profile before without the shackles of office and collective responsibility?

    Not sure about this but I suspect it will cut both ways rather than overly benefiting REMAINS.
  • Tax credit changes should be tweaked perhaps but they should still happen. They are a punitive cap on aspiration causing a marginal tax rate that would be viewed as unthinkable on anyone else.

    Smooth the transition so people don't lose out and the changes in tax credits coincide with the increase in living wage rates would be one solution.

    A U-turn, in other words. It's going to happen, for sure.

    Osborne does not fear Labour, of course, but he does fear not being the next PM.
    A u-turn would be abolishing reforms to tax credits. Tweaking reforms so that they're better implemented should always be the responsibility of a sensible government not something to be avoided for the curse of being accused of a u-turn.
    A U-ey is a U-ey, but is usually presented as a tweak. I agree that this is how GO will present this U-turn.
    It's very juvenile to think that any amendments to a proposal are to be castigated as u-turns and that it is spin to present them as tweaks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    chestnut said:

    DavidL said:

    Of course yet another problem for the Treasury is that that damn stupid triple lock and zero inflation means that the cost of pensions in real terms is going up by the full 2.5%. If the BoE were meeting its targets this would be more like 0.5%.

    The pressure this puts on the welfare budget is largely being borne by our working poor. We have gone way too far down this road already.

    Doesn't the inflation figure have a very positive income on government debt restructuring and suppressing public sector pensions whilst putting more spending money (real terms) in the hands of the majority, driving consumption, employment and tax revenue?

    That said, pensioners do seem to be getting a particularly good deal. I'd imagine that many are informally passing it on to children and grandchildren etc.
    Zero inflation is a nightmare for government debt. Britain doesn't default officially but we have inflated our debts away more than once. The ratio of public debt to GDP would have been falling for a couple of years now if we had had 2% increases in nominal incomes. As it is it just might fall this year but the very low inflation is making that more difficult.

    Zero inflation has accelerated the increase in real wages but people tend to notice the nominal increases much more. 5% is so much better than 2%, even if there is 3% inflation. Of course if you have a large mortgage that is true.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,841

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.
    I voted UKIP at the Euro election last year.
    Tell us about just how shy a Tory you were this year again :p
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
  • SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.

    Cameron knows Corbyn Labour is unelectable and that a divided Tory party will not change that.

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Tim Montgomerie is an attention seeking twit. He never got over his mate Davis losing the leadership.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    perdix said:

    Tim Montgomerie is an attention seeking twit. He never got over his mate Davis losing the leadership.

    This.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634
    DavidL said:

    Of course yet another problem for the Treasury is that that damn stupid triple lock and zero inflation means that the cost of pensions in real terms is going up by the full 2.5%. If the BoE were meeting its targets this would be more like 0.5%.

    The pressure this puts on the welfare budget is largely being borne by our working poor. We have gone way too far down this road already.

    This is what's wrong with democracy. Getting elected gets in the way of following the right course and/ or telling the truth
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.

    Cameron knows Corbyn Labour is unelectable and that a divided Tory party will not change that.

    Who you voting for in 2020 Boris or Jezza?
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.

    Cameron knows Corbyn Labour is unelectable and that a divided Tory party will not change that.

    I disagree, in part. In most circumstances - almost all circumstances - Corbyn is completely unelectable. But Europe is THE one single issue which could blow the Tory party into splinters, unless Cameron is careful. Dave surely knows this, which is why I doubt these reports. Most sceptics will be happy with a referendum which is fairly fought, even if they lose. They will just hope for the next vote to go their way.

    But if Cameron is seen to bend the rules?? Tsk. Mayhem ensues.

    And then Labour, even under Corbyn - or some fellow-Trot he nominates after Jez *retires* in 2018 - might just possibly win.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,162
    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.
    Cameron could fire every single member of the Cabinet and replace them with the cast of "Glee", and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the election result
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 22,135
    My prediction for the Canadian election: pretty much a dead heat between the Conservatives and Liberals.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    According to Harry Cole, Number 10 have been frantically calling wealthy Tory businessmen asking them to publically back the Remain campaign as it is currently a shambles.

    Maybe Dave believes that keeping the EU together is more important than keeping the Tories together.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634
    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Public sector "getting rid" means making redundant with a huge payoff, going on gardening leave for a month or two then getting re-employed in the public sector at a substantially enhanced salary.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    edited October 2015
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.
    Cameron could fire every single member of the Cabinet and replace them with the cast of "Glee", and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the election result
    It would still be WRONG.

    PS: as in MORALLY wrong. This is such an important decision for all of us in the UK - for our children, and grandchildren - the entire campaign must be scrupulously fair and noticeably balanced.

    Yes, this means that OUT has a slightly better chance of winning, but Dave must suck that up.

  • perdix said:

    Tim Montgomerie is an attention seeking twit. He never got over his mate Davis losing the leadership.

    Quite agree. If Osborne was keeping the welfare status quo Montgomerie would be channelling Thatcher and berating the government for cowardice. He's a weak pundit who falls back on contraryism because he can't think of anything intelligent to write. Of all the poor right-wing hacks (and there are several) I recall he resorted to the 'Ed's played a blinder' card more than most.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Public sector "getting rid" means making redundant with a huge payoff, going on gardening leave for a month or two then getting re-employed in the public sector at a substantially enhanced salary.
    That's depressingly true. I really wish we could break that cycle.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 14,751
    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,491
    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    The LLoyd shares wont help a structural deficit. You can only sell each share once, you cant use it as a basis to fund revenue expenditure.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 13,436
    edited October 2015
    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?
    The NHS as a whole is "no longer viable under current terms".
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    But, but, but, the EU is meant to unite the countries of Europe. It is looking more divided than ever.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,491
    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Lots of people who take on the public sector challenge from the private sector find they just cant do what they want to do. They get frustrated and leave. So much of what staff expect from their employer isnt present in the private sector. Trying to challenge meets a complete brick wall.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 36,517
    With Scotland leading 34-32 in the dying moments of a pulsating game at Twickenham, Joubert awarded a penalty to Australia after judging that Jon Welsh, a replacement prop, had been offside when he picked up a loose ball from a Scotland knock-on.

    Replays immediately showed that the last touch had come from Nick Phipps as the Australia replacement scrum half tried to clasp the ball and the Scotland players pointed to the big screen, clearly urging Joubert to review his decision.

    Phipps confirmed that he had tried to play the ball, rendering Joubert’s decision to be incorrect.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4589682.ece
  • Danny565 said:

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.
    I voted UKIP at the Euro election last year.
    Tell us about just how shy a Tory you were this year again :p
    I was the only PB Tory who voted Labour at the GE2015 :)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?

    What we can do with health has overtaken what we can afford.

    We need to have an honest conversation about the limits of what the NHS can provide.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.

    "Handled right" the EU can be shut down as an issue permanently and who cares if they ever have a major round of reforms. Handled wrong we'll still be members.
  • GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?
    Don't jump down my throat BJO as I'm not sure and this is not a dig, but wasn't part of the problem with Circle that they had their funding cut in what transpired to be a political move?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    Scott_P said:

    With Scotland leading 34-32 in the dying moments of a pulsating game at Twickenham, Joubert awarded a penalty to Australia after judging that Jon Welsh, a replacement prop, had been offside when he picked up a loose ball from a Scotland knock-on.

    Replays immediately showed that the last touch had come from Nick Phipps as the Australia replacement scrum half tried to clasp the ball and the Scotland players pointed to the big screen, clearly urging Joubert to review his decision.

    Phipps confirmed that he had tried to play the ball, rendering Joubert’s decision to be incorrect.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4589682.ece

    The sooner we admit it was a crap throw in and get over the hard luck crap the better.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,536
    edited October 2015
    FPT - Danny565:

    Con got 38% of people who voted.
    Con got 25% of the population.

    If Con got 32% of C2s who voted, that implies they got 20% of C2s in the population.

    I said 20% absolute maximum, probably nearer 15%.

    15% may well be correct, as I maintain high benefit claimants will be less likely to vote Con - ie Single person C2 no kids no benefits more likely to vote Con than Single person C2 with kids on huge benefits.

    But whether that is right or wrong, the highest the figure could be is 20% - exactly as per my post!

    Whereas the calculation re 71 MPs assumed 100%!
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    notme said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Lots of people who take on the public sector challenge from the private sector find they just cant do what they want to do. They get frustrated and leave. So much of what staff expect from their employer isnt present in the private sector. Trying to challenge meets a complete brick wall.
    Agree entirely - that's what's brought a premature halt to my brief employment by the NHS.

    To repeat my reply to ReggieCide below because it applies here too:
    That's depressingly true. I really wish we could break that cycle.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 36,517
    @NicolaSturgeon: Note to my fellow independence supporters. People who disagree are not anti Scottish. Does our cause no good to hurl abuse (& it's wrong)

    Will any of the zoomers here take heed?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,162
    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    If I may for a moment? It is entirely possible that at the time of the referendum Cameron will be advocating IN and other members of the Cabinet (whether former or present) will be advocating OUT. It's not the only scenario, but not improbable, yes? And I'm wondering...does Cameron have the stomach for a proper fight? I don't know that he does. I can't think of a situation where he blackened an opponent's character, engaged in dirty tricks, or any of the hundred ways a politician bends people to his will by hurting somebody pour encourager les autres. His advancement to date has employed charm, emollience, and (in the case of the Sindy ref) pleading. Thatcher, Brown, Blair, Macmillan, Wilson - heck, even Major at a push - could kick people to the floor, kick them while they were down, and blame them for hurting their toecap with their balls. It will be interesting to see whether Cameron will step up to the plate, or whether he is willing to go down in history as the man who lost the EU whilst sticking his cock in a pig
  • SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
  • GeoffM said:

    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.

    "Handled right" the EU can be shut down as an issue permanently and who cares if they ever have a major round of reforms. Handled wrong we'll still be members.
    That's handled wrong if you think we should remain. There are four possible outcomes.

    1: Leave victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.
    2: Leave victory in a fair referendum.
    3: Remain victory in a fair referendum.
    4: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.

    Some people would support 1/2, or 3/4 as they view the most important thing as being that their side wins. I don't. I am currently leaning towards supporting 3 then 2. I do not want to see a biased referendum to either side.
  • Scott_P said:

    With Scotland leading 34-32 in the dying moments of a pulsating game at Twickenham, Joubert awarded a penalty to Australia after judging that Jon Welsh, a replacement prop, had been offside when he picked up a loose ball from a Scotland knock-on.

    Replays immediately showed that the last touch had come from Nick Phipps as the Australia replacement scrum half tried to clasp the ball and the Scotland players pointed to the big screen, clearly urging Joubert to review his decision.

    Phipps confirmed that he had tried to play the ball, rendering Joubert’s decision to be incorrect.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4589682.ece

    Get over it.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?
    The NHS as a whole is "no longer viable under current terms".
    The whole of the overspend is in the Sector Lansley reforms disadvantaged ie Acute hospitals.

    Those he gave all the power to are breaking even.

    Oh and £4bn of previous NHS money tied up in the Better Care Fund has been stolen
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.

    "Handled right" the EU can be shut down as an issue permanently and who cares if they ever have a major round of reforms. Handled wrong we'll still be members.
    That's handled wrong if you think we should remain. There are four possible outcomes.

    1: Leave victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.
    2: Leave victory in a fair referendum.
    3: Remain victory in a fair referendum.
    4: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.

    Some people would support 1/2, or 3/4 as they view the most important thing as being that their side wins. I don't. I am currently leaning towards supporting 3 then 2. I do not want to see a biased referendum to either side.
    I'm a 2 every day of the week. 3 is the only other acceptable outcome.
    Option 5 is:
    5: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards remain.
    That is the result that I expect.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,536
    edited October 2015
    Fundamental problem:

    Society wants people with kids to have more money than people without kids (as kids cost money).

    But nobody has suggested employers should be told to pay people with kids more than people without kids.

    So the only possible way of meeting the objective is to pay benefits.

    It's that simple - it's then just a question of how generous you make the benefits.

    Higher pay can only really tinker at the edges - the "bonus" deemed necessary for kids is so great that higher pay will never meet it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    MikeL said:

    Fundamental problem:

    Society wants people with kids to have more money than people without kids (as kids cost money).

    But nobody has suggested employers should be told to pay people with kids more than people without kids.

    So the only possible way of meeting the objective is to pay benefits.

    It's that simple - it's then just a question of how generous you make the benefits.

    Higher pay can only really tinker at the edges - the "bonus" deemed necessary for kids is so great that higher pay will never meet it.

    Cobblers - people need to live within their means - not procreate first finance later.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?
    Don't jump down my throat BJO as I'm not sure and this is not a dig, but wasn't part of the problem with Circle that they had their funding cut in what transpired to be a political move?
    From what I have read I think there funding cut is in line with that of other Acute hospitals who are only funded for additional emergency activity at 30% of the tariff rate.They have all lost funding via Better Care Fund too.

    Not read anything about political targeting but who knows.

    All I know is its getting so bad in a lot of hospitals that they are having to take out emergency loans just to pay their staffs monthly wages
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,162

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,075
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    DavidL said:

    The budget sums are particularly hard this year. Those incompetent managers who run the health service are going to need another couple of billion to balance the books, the tax revenues are looking disappointing, north sea oil is down to next to zero, he has had to find some more for the train sets to keep the Northern Powerhouse on track and he needs to find some money to give his new infrastructure commission a head start.

    Even if he wanted to finding an extra couple of billion to smooth the edges of these tax credits is going to be tricky. This is what a structural deficit looks like. Its not pretty. No wonder he is so keen to sell the Lloyds shares.

    Every manager in the 95% of Acute hospitals that are significantly overspent must be incompetent.

    Clearly nothing to do with Lansley
    Agree with both of those assessments.
    The problem is how you get rid of them and replace them with competent managers.
    There are plenty in the private sector but you'd be able to hear the howls of lefty anguish from Pluto.
    Only a fool would blame overspending by 95% of Hospitals in the Acute sector on incompetent managers.

    Of course Circle private sector managers also concluded the market for Acute Healthcare was "unsustainable"

    But hey you must have your finger on the pulse from over there.

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.ViQUm36rQol
    I was agreeing with you.
    But not with Circle who said Acute health was "no longer viable under current terms" when they cut and ran?
    The NHS as a whole is "no longer viable under current terms".
    That was obvious a decade ago when I was last in the UK.

    Command economies are not sustainable, (just ask the Soviet Union and China), and the NHS is the ultimate command economy.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,536
    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 22,135
    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    Actually the figures are for seats not percentages. That's the way they usually publish poll data in the Netherlands.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    With Scotland leading 34-32 in the dying moments of a pulsating game at Twickenham, Joubert awarded a penalty to Australia after judging that Jon Welsh, a replacement prop, had been offside when he picked up a loose ball from a Scotland knock-on.

    Replays immediately showed that the last touch had come from Nick Phipps as the Australia replacement scrum half tried to clasp the ball and the Scotland players pointed to the big screen, clearly urging Joubert to review his decision.

    Phipps confirmed that he had tried to play the ball, rendering Joubert’s decision to be incorrect.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4589682.ece
    The sooner we admit it was a crap throw in and get over the hard luck crap the better.


    I don't want to stoke the fires of Scottish grievance, but as a patriotic protestant Unionist Englishman of pure Cornish ancestry, who is generally quite happy to see Scotland lose at rugby (even though I consider Scotland an integral and hugely important part of the British soul) today I honestly thought you were robbed.
  • SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    I'm hearing a few more rumours down the grapevine that Cameron's going to sack eurosceptic ministers in the coming months so they will have less status when they campaign to leave the EU.

    It will be utterly appalling if he does that. The EU is clearly a very heated and important issue within the Conservative Party, and the only way we can overcome it is to have a mature debate and if both sides are treated with respect. If the leadership engages in a dirty tricks campaign to kneecap people on the other side of the debate, then it will cause the eurosceptics to respond in kind (with legitimate reason) and we will descend into civil war.

    It will be despicable if Cameron puts stacking the deck in favour of the EU ahead of the unity of the Conservative Party - especially when the Opposition has such dangerous views right now.

    Completely agree. If he does that, Cameron will essentially be saying that the cause of the EU is more important than the prosperity of Great Britain (given that the alternative to a violently divided Tory party is a Corbyn-led Labour).

    I cannot believe he will be that stupid. And odious. And wrong.

    Cameron knows Corbyn Labour is unelectable and that a divided Tory party will not change that.

    Who you voting for in 2020 Boris or Jezza?

    If Corbyn still leads Labour, or he's replaced by someone equally moronic, and I can't summon the enthusiasm to vote LD - and it's a struggle right now - I'll be staying at home.

    I suspect 2020 will be a very low turnout GE.

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,536
    TGOHF said:

    MikeL said:

    Fundamental problem:

    Society wants people with kids to have more money than people without kids (as kids cost money).

    But nobody has suggested employers should be told to pay people with kids more than people without kids.

    So the only possible way of meeting the objective is to pay benefits.

    It's that simple - it's then just a question of how generous you make the benefits.

    Higher pay can only really tinker at the edges - the "bonus" deemed necessary for kids is so great that higher pay will never meet it.

    Cobblers - people need to live within their means - not procreate first finance later.
    Sure - I agree with you completely - you misunderstood my post!

    My point is that you can't stop any people "losing" through higher pay - the maths don't add up.

    Ultimately it's a philosophical choice.

    In all OTHER aspects of life, if you want to do something expensive you need a higher salary. But a system has been set up where kids are the one exception - anyone can have them, however little they earn - and the taxpayer will fund the whole thing.

    I agree with you - it shouldn't happen.

    But my point is that people need to be honest and say what is happening - and why it shouldn't happen.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    GeoffM said:

    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.

    "Handled right" the EU can be shut down as an issue permanently and who cares if they ever have a major round of reforms. Handled wrong we'll still be members.
    That's handled wrong if you think we should remain. There are four possible outcomes.

    1: Leave victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.
    2: Leave victory in a fair referendum.
    3: Remain victory in a fair referendum.
    4: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.

    Some people would support 1/2, or 3/4 as they view the most important thing as being that their side wins. I don't. I am currently leaning towards supporting 3 then 2. I do not want to see a biased referendum to either side.
    Which is why cabinet ministers should not be sacked early, and why they should be allowed to campaign on either side. As they were in 1973.
  • MikeL said:

    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.

    MikeL said:

    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.

    Why don't ypu chalk of the first Scotland try?
    Qbviously on a normal day Australia would not have made a mistake.
    Fucking spacer.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.


  • MikeL said:

    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.

    MikeL said:

    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.

    Why don't you chalk of the first Scotland try?
    Qbviously on a normal day Australia would not have made a mistake.
    Fucking spacer.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
    Fuck that then.

    I return to the Brompton Cocktail - heroin, cocaine and cognac (once prescribed for terminally ill cancer patients in Brompton Hospital, in the 1920s, until it was noted, severely, that it made the dying patients "too cheerful").

    Twats.

    I've done heroin and cocaine. Together I can confirm that they are wholly blissful. Add some fine cognac? Or maybe an aged malt whisky? Highland Park 18?

    Yep. Count me in. Or out.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
    Fuck that then.

    I return to the Brompton Cocktail - heroin, cocaine and cognac (once prescribed for terminally ill cancer patients in Brompton Hospital, in the 1920s, until it was noted, severely, that it made the dying patients "too cheerful").

    Twats.

    I've done heroin and cocaine. Together I can confirm that they are wholly blissful. Add some fine cognac? Or maybe an aged malt whisky? Highland Park 18?

    Yep. Count me in. Or out.
    I think I have tried most drugs, but not heroin... For a long time though I've thought if I was diagnosed with something terminal Id get right on it
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,075
    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
    Fuck that then.

    I return to the Brompton Cocktail - heroin, cocaine and cognac (once prescribed for terminally ill cancer patients in Brompton Hospital, in the 1920s, until it was noted, severely, that it made the dying patients "too cheerful").

    Twats.

    I've done heroin and cocaine. Together I can confirm that they are wholly blissful. Add some fine cognac? Or maybe an aged malt whisky? Highland Park 18?

    Yep. Count me in. Or out.
    What about hypoxia? You simply go to sleep. Don't have to take or swallow anything. It was considered for death penalty use but rejected as the prisoner feels no discomfort and there is nothing for the witnesses to 'see'.
  • JEO said:

    GeoffM said:

    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.

    "Handled right" the EU can be shut down as an issue permanently and who cares if they ever have a major round of reforms. Handled wrong we'll still be members.
    That's handled wrong if you think we should remain. There are four possible outcomes.

    1: Leave victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.
    2: Leave victory in a fair referendum.
    3: Remain victory in a fair referendum.
    4: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.

    Some people would support 1/2, or 3/4 as they view the most important thing as being that their side wins. I don't. I am currently leaning towards supporting 3 then 2. I do not want to see a biased referendum to either side.
    Which is why cabinet ministers should not be sacked early, and why they should be allowed to campaign on either side. As they were in 1973.
    Completely agreed. This whole drama will have been for naught if remain only wins in a way that isn't accepted as at all valid by those who want to leave.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,162
    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
    Fuck that then.

    I return to the Brompton Cocktail - heroin, cocaine and cognac (once prescribed for terminally ill cancer patients in Brompton Hospital, in the 1920s, until it was noted, severely, that it made the dying patients "too cheerful").

    Twats.

    I've done heroin and cocaine. Together I can confirm that they are wholly blissful. Add some fine cognac? Or maybe an aged malt whisky? Highland Park 18?

    Yep. Count me in. Or out.
    I must confess to some left-handed admiration for somebody who, when faced with obtaining heroin, cocaine and cognac, worries about the quality of the cognac...
  • GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    I completely agree with @SeanT that the referendum must be fair and be seen to be fair. The losers will inevitably grasp straws to explain why they lost rather than accept they lost fair and square so Dave should be completely above board and leave no straws to grasp.

    Handled right the EU can be shut down as an issue for decades or until the next major round of reforms whichever comes sooner. Handled wrong this will blow up before the GE.

    "Handled right" the EU can be shut down as an issue permanently and who cares if they ever have a major round of reforms. Handled wrong we'll still be members.
    That's handled wrong if you think we should remain. There are four possible outcomes.

    1: Leave victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.
    2: Leave victory in a fair referendum.
    3: Remain victory in a fair referendum.
    4: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards leave.

    Some people would support 1/2, or 3/4 as they view the most important thing as being that their side wins. I don't. I am currently leaning towards supporting 3 then 2. I do not want to see a biased referendum to either side.
    I'm a 2 every day of the week. 3 is the only other acceptable outcome.
    Option 5 is:
    5: Remain victory in a referendum seen to be biased towards remain.
    That is the result that I expect.
    Sorry that was a typo, that was meant to be option 4.

    I am discounting as both implausible and irrelevant the referendum being won by the side the referendum was biased against. If leave wins in a referendum biased to remain, or remain wins in a referendum biased towards leave then the issue is closed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,640
    AndyJS said:

    My prediction for the Canadian election: pretty much a dead heat between the Conservatives and Liberals.

    2/3 of latest polls suggest Trudeau has opened a clear lead, much depends on whether the NDP vote collapses in his favour, that may even give him an outside chance of a majority

    Nanos Liberal 37.3% Tory 30.5% NDP 22.1%

    Ipsos Liberal 38% Tory 31% NDP 22%

    EKOS Liberal 34.3% Tory 32.6% NDP 21%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2015

    Night
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,075
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
    Fuck that then.

    I return to the Brompton Cocktail - heroin, cocaine and cognac (once prescribed for terminally ill cancer patients in Brompton Hospital, in the 1920s, until it was noted, severely, that it made the dying patients "too cheerful").

    Twats.

    I've done heroin and cocaine. Together I can confirm that they are wholly blissful. Add some fine cognac? Or maybe an aged malt whisky? Highland Park 18?

    Yep. Count me in. Or out.
    I must confess to some left-handed admiration for somebody who, when faced with obtaining heroin, cocaine and cognac, worries about the quality of the cognac...
    or use gin.....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brompton_cocktail
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Mr Smithson is desperate for a change in policy, you can tell that - he is quoting Tim Monrgomerie. I hope he is well pensioned, because his trusty followers want to see pensioners hit instead. People on fixed incomes who are helpless to really adjust their lifestyles, unable to change jobs or earn more. Who would have thought they could be so jealous of a sodding bus pass? People coming to the end of their lives and at their most vulnerable, coming under spitteratzi type hate from pbhysterics.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,589
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    SeanT said:

    Hold your ground, Gideon.

    We need to slash welfare to the bone. We need to see starving northerners and Scots doing weird jigs in the streets of the Home Counties, in the forlorn hope they might earn a sixpence to buy rusks for their children. We need to see RESULTS.

    Maybe a new 90% rate on those earning over 400K? What do you think Sean?
    To be honest, I doubt I will turnover £400k this year. Last year was exceptional. in my business earnings are extremely volatile.

    But I can say I out-earned the prime minister of my country for five years in a row - by making up stupid stories.

    THAT is something I will tell my grandkids. Incessantly. Til they have me dispatched to Dignitas.
    Dignitas, very clinical. Not going to follow in the footsteps of Hunter S Thompson, the Hemingway brothers, Virginia Woolf?
    Do it Alan Turing stylee. Poisoned apple. Poetic and good for your teeth.

    Incidentally, the death cocktail they administer in Dignitas tastes so repulsive they have to add an anti-emetic to prevent you hurling...:-(
    Fuck that then.

    I return to the Brompton Cocktail - heroin, cocaine and cognac (once prescribed for terminally ill cancer patients in Brompton Hospital, in the 1920s, until it was noted, severely, that it made the dying patients "too cheerful").

    Twats.

    I've done heroin and cocaine. Together I can confirm that they are wholly blissful. Add some fine cognac? Or maybe an aged malt whisky? Highland Park 18?

    Yep. Count me in. Or out.
    I think I have tried most drugs, but not heroin... For a long time though I've thought if I was diagnosed with something terminal Id get right on it
    Heroin is the way to go.

    Sorry. But it really IS. Just a sublime anaesthetic. All worries are cast aside. But also all ambitions, and many mechanisms of self preservation. "Heroin is great until you die" as Keith Richards said, and he was right.

    If I was the Fuhrer of the UK I'd give everyone over 70 as much heroin as they want. It costs pence, and it would save trillions.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 905
    As far as the Rugby is concerned - where is a Russian linesman when you need one? - yes I really do know something about football!

    However it is quite reasonable for people to discuss a rough decision and the Scotland team goes out with their colours flying high. That is a contrast with some other teams. TGOHF does himself little good by his attitude on these matters which is nonetheless quite revealing.

    I also notice that the SNP are now on 54 per cent in the Comres Scottish cross break! Now my own attitude to sub samples is well known. However, TGOHF usually seems to think they are important. How inconvenient it must be to have poll after poll which confounds his hopes!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,640
    scotslass said:

    As far as the Rugby is concerned - where is a Russian linesman when you need one? - yes I really do know something about football!

    However it is quite reasonable for people to discuss a rough decision and the Scotland team goes out with their colours flying high. That is a contrast with some other teams. TGOHF does himself little good by his attitude on these matters which is nonetheless quite revealing.

    I also notice that the SNP are now on 54 per cent in the Comres Scottish cross break! Now my own attitude to sub samples is well known. However, TGOHF usually seems to think they are important. How inconvenient it must be to have poll after poll which confounds his hopes!

    Though yougov last week had No leading 52-48% on any rerun indyref in a poll which also had the SNP on over 50% in the constituency Holyrood vote, 45% on the list
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    MikeL said:

    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.

    MikeL said:

    On any normal day, Australia would have won by 20+ points.

    Aus scored five tries to Scotland's three. Of those three one was a charge down and one an interception. In terms of "normal play" it was five tries to one.

    Aus also had a try ruled out for a tiny knock-on in a ruck that was only seen by TMO and could easily have not been noticed. That would have been six tries to one on normal play.

    Why don't ypu chalk of the first Scotland try?
    Qbviously on a normal day Australia would not have made a mistake.
    Fucking spacer.
    He should. The Aussies were dreaming of the big wave instead of defending for Scotland's first try, it was the most appalling miserable neglect of basic defence in world cup history. Amazingly they presented Scotland with two other golden tries. Scotland failed to take advantage of the huge opportunity presented them.
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