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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Osborne’s tax credits dilemma might be solved by the Lords

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited October 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Osborne’s tax credits dilemma might be solved by the Lords – peers could kill the move

Huffpost’s Paul Waugh has what appears like a scoop with a report that the House of Lords, where the Tories don’t have a majority, could kill the legislative move to change the tax credits system.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,822
    It raises the separate question of when is it appropriate for the House of Lords to intervene. This isn't precisely a money bill but this statutory instrument is of that ilk. Have any such statutory instruments been voted down in the Lords in recent years?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521
    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited October 2015
    Do any of us, left or right, approve of an Opposition using the Lords to subvert the intention of the 1911 Parliament Act? Cameron should dissolve - he's 13 points ahead in the Polls... enough of Gideon's leftie posturing - the Tax Payers' Alliance has the manifesto - go for it, DC :)
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited October 2015
    Link to the Daily Wail on the third comment? Is this a record?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,822

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    edited October 2015
    Ah the Lords - they only place left in British politics where LDs can't leave in a taxi.

    I think the dead horse has had enough no ?
  • CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    edited October 2015

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy that allowed the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense to exist in the first place (either because the far right really do manage to take control OR because the population really is replaced by Muslims).

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
  • Antifrank - the Wail is Always Right About Everything. When are you going to get that into your head?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,975

    Do any of us, left or right, approve of an Opposition using the Lords to subvert the intention of the 1911 Parliament Act? Cameron should dissolve - he's 13 points ahead in the Polls... enough of Gideon's leftie posturing - the Tax Payers' Alliance has the manifesto - go for it, DC :)

    A dissolution now might be a touch pre-emptive but the thrust of the post is right: the Lords have are treading in dangerous territory to reject something which by custom (the Salisbury convention) and by the intent of the Parliament Acts, in relation to Finance matters, would be considered out of bounds.

    If they do go down this route then the measure should be brought back in full in the next Budget.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Just imagine how the Lib Dems would be howling about this if they were proposing a finance measure and the Tories stopped it in the Lords.

    Clue here as to why this miserable bunch of opportunists were crushed at the general election
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,490

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521
    edited October 2015
    antifrank said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
    Calm down dear.. my point was not about whether we should or should not take in migrants it was everything to do with the bishops who release a letter that they sent to the Prime Minister, a disgraceful move designed to cause trouble, and Dave was right to ignore them. In fact the Bishops should be ignored on just about anything political such as their vote Labour letter before the GE 2015. High time they ministered to their flocks or just fecked off altogether.... and as an afterthought, boot them out of the House of Lords too.
  • Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    Which is why Corbyn leads Labour - lefties don't want to do hard-headed calculation. Nor rightists compassion, for that matter.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,490

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy that allowed the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense to exist in the first place (either because the far right really do manage to take control OR because the population really is replaced by Muslims).

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    The breakdown of the "mainstream" European Right, and its replacement by the insurgent Right is still fascinating to watch.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy that allowed the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense to exist in the first place (either because the far right really do manage to take control OR because the population really is replaced by Muslims).

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    Agree entirely Mr Cornish but I have to say you've only yourself to blame. This left v right tosh is garnered by both sides as right v wrong, its total nonsense, party tribalism at its worst.

    Front page of the Telegraph has 6 cabinet ministers wondering if they're going to be allowed to campaign for what they believe in. Anybody who voted tory should be ashamed of themselves.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637
    edited October 2015
    @SouthamObserver FPT

    From a position of wealth it is, of course, easy to mock "the howls of anguish" of hard-working people who will see their incomes cut as a result of the tax credit cuts and will suffer significant privations as a result. But it's not a great look.

    If you had read my post...

    The "howls of anguish" were from left wingers identifying edge cases

    They were not from hard working people seeing their incomes cut
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    Bishops can say what they like, if govt listens to them they're more stupid than I thought.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637
    It may be technically possible, but is the House of Lords really going to vote down a Money measure?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    The cuts to welfare were in the Tory manifesto. For an undemocratic house to overrule this would be completely inappropriate. Especially when it is done by the Lib Dems, who have a share of the Lords far ahead of their elected representation or vote share. Given their past statements on the Lords it would actually be rank hypocrisy.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Apparently this chap is the most popular man on social media in the Middle East. Of course he claims to be moderate because he opposes ISIS.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamad_al-Arefe
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,975
    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    No reason why they should have 26 pulpits in the Lords from which to do so, though.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,490

    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    No reason why they should have 26 pulpits in the Lords from which to do so, though.
    I don't disagree.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,869
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy that allowed the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense to exist in the first place (either because the far right really do manage to take control OR because the population really is replaced by Muslims).

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    The breakdown of the "mainstream" European Right, and its replacement by the insurgent Right is still fascinating to watch.
    How are UKIP doing?
    One MP (-1), Zero councils (-1) and a number of councillors lost.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-34517022
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,822

    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    No reason why they should have 26 pulpits in the Lords from which to do so, though.
    Since your own party has helped to sabotage every attempt to reform the House of Lords, I'd prefer inconvenient voices to remain there until such time as the House of Commons can agree on a more democratic upper house.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,799
    Charles said:

    It may be technically possible, but is the House of Lords really going to vote down a Money measure?

    Maybe the Master Strategist is trying to engineer a fight...
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy that allowed the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense to exist in the first place (either because the far right really do manage to take control OR because the population really is replaced by Muslims).

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    The breakdown of the "mainstream" European Right, and its replacement by the insurgent Right is still fascinating to watch.
    How are UKIP doing?
    One MP (-1), Zero councils (-1) and a number of councillors lost.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-34517022
    Would you consider ukip mainstream or insurgent?

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    No reason why they should have 26 pulpits in the Lords from which to do so, though.
    Since your own party has helped to sabotage every attempt to reform the House of Lords, I'd prefer inconvenient voices to remain there until such time as the House of Commons can agree on a more democratic upper house.
    The Conservatives should definitely reverse course on this. The Right now has a 55% majority in the UK, according to ComRes. We could get far more legislation passed, and thwart far more left-wing legislation, by embracing reform.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,208
    AF

    "Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins."

    It might have been interesting at this point to regurgitate some of the Mail's articles from the 30's if it wasn't that we'd have to suffer someone shouting Godwin!

    The British governments behaviour towards to refugees is shaming us all and for the likes of Cameron who are worried about their legacy they should think about this. Even on hard headed political grounds having worked so hard to lose the 'nasty' tag he should worry he's heading back to the 80's at a gallop.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,974
    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    No reason why they should have 26 pulpits in the Lords from which to do so, though.
    Since your own party has helped to sabotage every attempt to reform the House of Lords, I'd prefer inconvenient voices to remain there until such time as the House of Commons can agree on a more democratic upper house.
    How does the HoL being democratic allow it to do its work in a better way?

    It's quite possible that a democratic HoL would do its job worse, and be in continuous argument with the HoC.

    Time for the HoL to be a House of Experts, something the HoC has never been, and something which fits its role much better.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637
    Roger said:

    AF

    "Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins."

    It might have been interesting at this point to regurgitate some of the Mail's articles from the 30's if it wasn't that we'd have to suffer someone shouting Godwin!

    The British governments behaviour towards to refugees is shaming us all and for the likes of Cameron who are worried about their legacy they should think about this. Even on hard headed political grounds having worked so hard to lose the 'nasty' tag he should worry he's heading back to the 80's at a gallop.

    What's shameful about us being the biggest donor of aid (except the US) to the refugee camps?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,975
    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    I don't see anything outrageous about the Bishops' stance. It's their job to preach compassion. But, it's the government's job to balance compassion with hard-headed calculation of the national interest.
    No reason why they should have 26 pulpits in the Lords from which to do so, though.
    Since your own party has helped to sabotage every attempt to reform the House of Lords, I'd prefer inconvenient voices to remain there until such time as the House of Commons can agree on a more democratic upper house.
    I'm on the record as supporting a Lords / Senate with a democratic base.

    That said, it was the Lib Dems who sabotaged their own legislation last time. The proposals put forward by Clegg were close to the worst of all worlds and the procedural motion - which wasn't even voted on in the end - to extend discussion in the Commons was entirely justified. It might have delayed the reform (by weeks at most) but it was not in the slightest critical to the Bill's future success. If anything, had it passed, it would have increased the chances of the Bill becoming Law.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Roger said:

    AF

    "Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins."

    It might have been interesting at this point to regurgitate some of the Mail's articles from the 30's if it wasn't that we'd have to suffer someone shouting Godwin!

    The British governments behaviour towards to refugees is shaming us all and for the likes of Cameron who are worried about their legacy they should think about this. Even on hard headed political grounds having worked so hard to lose the 'nasty' tag he should worry he's heading back to the 80's at a gallop.

    Shaming us all?

    Hyperbolic tosh.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,490

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy that allowed the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense to exist in the first place (either because the far right really do manage to take control OR because the population really is replaced by Muslims).

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    The breakdown of the "mainstream" European Right, and its replacement by the insurgent Right is still fascinating to watch.
    How are UKIP doing?
    One MP (-1), Zero councils (-1) and a number of councillors lost.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-34517022
    I was referring to Continental Europe. I should have made myself clearer.

    Here, the main right wing party is protected by the electoral system. If we had a continental system, then that party would need confidence and supply from the insurgents.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521
    edited October 2015
    Roger said:

    AF

    "Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins."

    It might have been interesting at this point to regurgitate some of the Mail's articles from the 30's if it wasn't that we'd have to suffer someone shouting Godwin!

    The British governments behaviour towards to refugees is shaming us all and for the likes of Cameron who are worried about their legacy they should think about this. Even on hard headed political grounds having worked so hard to lose the 'nasty' tag he should worry he's heading back to the 80's at a gallop.

    Only in the likes of your eyes Roger. the UK Govt is doing loads in their own countries and its far more cost effective..
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Roger the shame lies with the Bishops and those Politicos who shout the most and do the least
  • Twitter brings to my attention the current Finance Bill, which technically still amendable, report stage and 3rd reading on the 26th (http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/finance.html). So Osbourn can reverse this by amending that, without the lords having any response. Politically difficult, but if he really doesn't want a face-saving get out he can reject one.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Roger .. the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited October 2015
    "Six Conservative Cabinet ministers have privately demanded that David Cameron allows them to campaign for Britain to leave the European Union, in the biggest split yet over the Prime Minister’s in-out referendum.

    The Tory secretaries of state are calling on Mr Cameron to waive “collective responsibility” in the run-up to the referendum, allowing Cabinet members to publically back an “out” vote.

    One minister told The Telegraph that it would be “insane” for Mr Cameron to expect openly europsceptic ministers to campaign for Britain to remain in the EU.

    Speaking separately to The Telegraph, half-a-dozen cabinet ministers made it clear they thought it would be unacceptable for Mr Cameron to make them campaign for an In vote.

    "It would be dynamite if he tried to force cabinet ministers to toe the line,” said one cabinet member. “It would be extremely difficult" "

    http://goo.gl/HRAHGC
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,208
    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Casey, welcome to pb.com :)

    Mr. F, the Conservatives are also protected by UKIP's campaigning strategy, which has enjoyed similar success to that employed by Crassus against Parthia.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,799
    No, Roger. The British governments behaviour towards refugees IN THE REGION is a credit to us all - and for the likes of Cameron who are worried about their legacy they should take great comfort from this.

    Virtually all of the rest of the EU should hang their heads in shame.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149

    Roger said:

    AF

    "Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins."

    It might have been interesting at this point to regurgitate some of the Mail's articles from the 30's if it wasn't that we'd have to suffer someone shouting Godwin!

    The British governments behaviour towards to refugees is shaming us all and for the likes of Cameron who are worried about their legacy they should think about this. Even on hard headed political grounds having worked so hard to lose the 'nasty' tag he should worry he's heading back to the 80's at a gallop.

    Shaming us all?

    Hyperbolic tosh.
    I still can't work out if Roger is an extreme parody of a champagne socialist or the real thing.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I don't want anyone from any religion ..who thinks there is a big guy in the sky, having any control whatsoever on my life..they should wander off into a dark place and whisper among themselves..
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Roger is 100% the real thing...not too sure what the real thing is though..
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521
    Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    Why don't you offer up your second home to a migrant family..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    On the substantive issue of tax credits, does anyone have a genuine worked through example of someone who will be seriously worse off by the proposed changes in the round? It will need to include minimum wage rise, personal allowance increase and childcare subsidy increases over the past five years.

    My hunch is that those badly affected are working exactly 16 hours a week, an artificial limit which is being removed by Universal Credit.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,975
    Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    Well, clearly they need to make sure it's spent effectively too.

    But no, just because there are problems in Syria it doesn't mean we should rip up such immigration controls as still exist. Apart from anything else, denuding Syria of its future will cause (even more) long term instability for the region. It is best for all sides that they go back home as soon as the situation allows.

    If the EU, in conjunction with other powers, wants to do something useful, then putting together an effective nation (re-)building programme, plus the necessary capacity to deliver it, would be a good start.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    @rodger

    We have spent more on refugees than any other country with the exception than America. That includes more on the Syria camps than anyone. Why don't you criticise Merkel for killing more by starting a stampede that other countries then refused to follow. She now apparently wants to fast track Turkey and make it worst ? Take genuine refugees from the camps by all means but not all and sundry.

    This country does not need to be ashamed it's doing all it can sensibly. We are not responsible for the worlds ills and I reject entirely any hypocritical leftie sitting in a posh pad outside this country saying so.
  • Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    Well, clearly they need to make sure it's spent effectively too.

    But no, just because there are problems in Syria it doesn't mean we should rip up such immigration controls as still exist. Apart from anything else, denuding Syria of its future will cause (even more) long term instability for the region. It is best for all sides that they go back home as soon as the situation allows.

    If the EU, in conjunction with other powers, wants to do something useful, then putting together an effective nation (re-)building programme, plus the necessary capacity to deliver it, would be a good start.
    That assumes that the concept of a nation-state isn't itself racist.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,584
    Sandpit said:

    It will need to include minimum wage rise, personal allowance increase and childcare subsidy increases over the past five years.

    But is not part of the problem that they were given the increases in the personal allowance before the change in the tax credits? That is, they've been allowed to get used to having more money available.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 36,517
    Sandpit said:

    I still can't work out if Roger is an extreme parody of a champagne socialist or the real thing.

    What's the difference?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Moses, be fair. After the eurozone, and the migrant crisis, she had to be creative to find a way to piss the Greeks off even more.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,208
    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Roger said:

    charles
    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    What a load of sanctimonious tosh. The same could be said of most of sub-Saharan Africa, and the vast majority of developing Asia, the peoples of which would have a vastly improved standard of living if they moved to the UK. Of course it might get a little crowded, still no need to worry about that living where you do eh ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 22,412
    Indigo said:

    Roger said:

    charles
    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    What a load of sanctimonious tosh. The same could be said of most of sub-Saharan Africa, and the vast majority of developing Asia, the peoples of which would have a vastly improved standard of living if they moved to the UK. Of course it might get a little crowded, still no need to worry about that living where you do eh ?
    That's what the free market's for. If you can't afford to eat, you starve.

    It worked for 19th Century America.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Surely you were an inter-railer once, Roger?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    Charles said:

    @SouthamObserver FPT

    From a position of wealth it is, of course, easy to mock "the howls of anguish" of hard-working people who will see their incomes cut as a result of the tax credit cuts and will suffer significant privations as a result. But it's not a great look.

    If you had read my post...

    The "howls of anguish" were from left wingers identifying edge cases

    They were not from hard working people seeing their incomes cut

    Will be when the letters drop though.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,975

    Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    Well, clearly they need to make sure it's spent effectively too.

    But no, just because there are problems in Syria it doesn't mean we should rip up such immigration controls as still exist. Apart from anything else, denuding Syria of its future will cause (even more) long term instability for the region. It is best for all sides that they go back home as soon as the situation allows.

    If the EU, in conjunction with other powers, wants to do something useful, then putting together an effective nation (re-)building programme, plus the necessary capacity to deliver it, would be a good start.
    That assumes that the concept of a nation-state isn't itself racist.

    It isn't. To use 'racist' in such a way removes any meaning from the term.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    They can want what they like , they should not expect or have any right to exp[ect us to pay for them to get it though.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited October 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Roger said:

    charles
    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    What a load of sanctimonious tosh. The same could be said of most of sub-Saharan Africa, and the vast majority of developing Asia, the peoples of which would have a vastly improved standard of living if they moved to the UK. Of course it might get a little crowded, still no need to worry about that living where you do eh ?
    That's what the free market's for. If you can't afford to eat, you starve.

    It worked for 19th Century America.
    The immigrants to 19th Century America were generally people of a liberal persuasion who began thinking of themselves as American first within one generation, certainly two. Their level of productivity was also pretty close to that of the people already there. And there was vast amounts of land available to settle on.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    I don't want anyone from any religion ..who thinks there is a big guy in the sky, having any control whatsoever on my life..they should wander off into a dark place and whisper among themselves..

    Which brings us neatly back around to 21 members in the HoL. Possibly with more funds available between them than some world governments
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015
    Roger said:

    Doddy



    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Watched from a cafe, tossing them crumbs from your uneaten pâtisserie.

    One presumes that like the Bishops, you're all hot air and no action, or have you given up one of your homes to those in need?

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    TGOHF said:

    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
    Tory steps in with jackboots and cannot hide his bitter twisted hatred of the SNP. Get a life toom tabard.
  • Welfare reform was in the manifesto. If the Lords blocks it are they going to propose an alternative £12 billion in cuts as was in the manifesto?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    Sandpit said:

    On the substantive issue of tax credits, does anyone have a genuine worked through example of someone who will be seriously worse off by the proposed changes in the round? It will need to include minimum wage rise, personal allowance increase and childcare subsidy increases over the past five years.

    My hunch is that those badly affected are working exactly 16 hours a week, an artificial limit which is being removed by Universal Credit.

    Someone laid it all out on a thread yesterday.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Roger I am what is known as a moderate drinker..one glass of whisky per night and a glass of wine at lunch time..and when I am working, which is a lot of the time, then no booze at all during the day..as for parking my bum anywhere I like,..just like you.. I am actually in Italy because my wife is a carer.. unpaid..for her very old mother..when we don't have to do that anymore then we will return to the UK...where we could both easily double our incomes..How many of those poor refugees did you cram into your Riviera home..or even offer work to..
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857

    Welfare reform was in the manifesto. If the Lords blocks it are they going to propose an alternative £12 billion in cuts as was in the manifesto?

    "Working Tax Credits will not go down" said Cameron as IFS said the only area left to find the unexplained £12bn was the said WTC.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637
    Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    Of course they want work and a life.

    But we don't have the capacity to give everyone in the Middle East those, and to try would impoverish our own people.

    What we need to do is to work to achieve peace in the middle east, and to invest heavily in economic development and building civic institutions (health, education, etc).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
    Tory steps in with jackboots and cannot hide his bitter twisted hatred of the SNP. Get a life toom tabard.
    Nat jumps to the rescue of wealthy ex-pat - Connery Syndrome I believe it's called.

    Haven't you got a children's author to abuse Malc ?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    I don't want anyone from any religion ..who thinks there is a big guy in the sky, having any control whatsoever on my life..they should wander off into a dark place and whisper among themselves..

    You'll be pleased to know that belief in a Sky Father has been largely extinct in this island since the first millenium.

  • malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
    Tory steps in with jackboots and cannot hide his bitter twisted hatred of the SNP. Get a life toom tabard.
    Be gentle with Flashy, he's stinging a bit after all that free money that cost him so much yesterday.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,208
    Sandpit

    "My hunch is that those badly affected are working exactly 16 hours a week, an artificial limit which is being removed by Universal Credit."

    I have just such an example. An electrician explained it to me. He could only work 16 hours a week and his income was made up by tax credits. I understood it was only useful to the part time self employed which is why I'm less inclined to get hot under the coller about this than others. I took it that it was a rather transparent wheeze and was surprised that getting an income from the government was so easy.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Said the person who has parked his bum in the posh end of France something some can only dream of doing.

    The telling line in your post though is " I have seen several" . Wow you must be absolutely inundated down there, how are you all coping, ohhhh it must be awful for you. Would you like some of the UK funds to help out like everyone else does?

    Meanwhile at the not so posh end of France there are thousands. Why don't you get on a train and go and help there if you feel so bad? You won't even have to cross a border to do so.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,041
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    On the substantive issue of tax credits, does anyone have a genuine worked through example of someone who will be seriously worse off by the proposed changes in the round? It will need to include minimum wage rise, personal allowance increase and childcare subsidy increases over the past five years.

    My hunch is that those badly affected are working exactly 16 hours a week, an artificial limit which is being removed by Universal Credit.

    Someone laid it all out on a thread yesterday.
    Somebody posted this yesterday:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-budget-affect-tax-credits-6031675
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637

    Welfare reform was in the manifesto. If the Lords blocks it are they going to propose an alternative £12 billion in cuts as was in the manifesto?

    "Working Tax Credits will not go down" said Cameron as IFS said the only area left to find the unexplained £12bn was the said WTC.
    Have you got a link to that quote? The best I can find is this from the BBC report of the Cameron-only "debate". But it was from the middle of an discussion around child tax credits, so it's pretty clear in context that's what he is referring to

    But he pledged: "I'm not going to cut your tax credits, I'm not going to cut child benefit or means-test it. I think that would be the wrong thing to do for our country, the wrong thing to do for family finances."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32526461

    Indeed, the Independent in June wrote:

    With Mr Cameron having already vowed to protect child benefits and pensioner benefits, the £30bn budget for tax credits appears to be in the line of fire, along with areas already outlined such as housing benefit and Jobseekers’ Allowance, while disability benefits are unlikely to be hit.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/working-poor-set-to-face-cut-in-tax-credits-as-david-cameron-attacks-merry-go-round-welfare-system-10335820.html

    Don't you think that - if he had promised not to cut working tax credits - Labour and the media would have been screaming that from the rooftops?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2015
    Roger said:

    Sandpit

    "My hunch is that those badly affected are working exactly 16 hours a week, an artificial limit which is being removed by Universal Credit."

    I have just such an example. An electrician explained it to me. He could only work 16 hours a week and his income was made up by tax credits. I understood it was only useful to the part time self employed which is why I'm less inclined to get hot under the coller about this than others. I took it that it was a rather transparent wheeze and was surprised that getting an income from the government was so easy.

    Does that mean that anyone should be able to announce that they can only work 16 hours a week, possibly because they can't be bothered to get their backside off the sofa for any longer, and expect the tax payer to step in and subsidise their lifestyle ? The number of people able to work 16 hours and unable to work say 20 or 25 if offered, and not also in receipt of another benefit such as incapacity benefit, must be microscopic.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    edited October 2015

    Charles said:

    @SouthamObserver FPT

    From a position of wealth it is, of course, easy to mock "the howls of anguish" of hard-working people who will see their incomes cut as a result of the tax credit cuts and will suffer significant privations as a result. But it's not a great look.

    If you had read my post...

    The "howls of anguish" were from left wingers identifying edge cases

    They were not from hard working people seeing their incomes cut

    Will be when the letters drop though.
    Good morning all. If Cameron wishes, the government can stick to its guns. The election is in 2020, not 2016. I've yet to find (or even create from the data I've found) hard numbers for those affected.

    Yes, there are certainly edge cases, as there always are with threshold-related policies. How many of those edge cases exist in practice, it's harder to say with any authority.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015
    Roger said:

    Sandpit

    "My hunch is that those badly affected are working exactly 16 hours a week, an artificial limit which is being removed by Universal Credit."

    I have just such an example. An electrician explained it to me. He could only work 16 hours a week and his income was made up by tax credits. I understood it was only useful to the part time self employed which is why I'm less inclined to get hot under the coller about this than others. I took it that it was a rather transparent wheeze and was surprised that getting an income from the government was so easy.

    Haven't you learnt from Ed and Jeremy - you have to give these fictional characters names. It sounds more plausible. How about Dave the electrician from Finchley?

    For many real people, yes it's a scam, hence the loudest whining is from those for whom the wheeze should be coming to an end, such as cash in hand nail bar operators.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,392
    antifrank said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
    You've gone a bit malcolmg there.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857

    Welfare reform was in the manifesto. If the Lords blocks it are they going to propose an alternative £12 billion in cuts as was in the manifesto?

    TRIPLE LOCK!!!!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,392

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given the utter insanity of Frau Merkel's actions, this summer, it will obviously take the total electoral triumph of a hard right or far right party, in a core north European country like Holland, Denmark or Sweden, before this point is proved.

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if (and this is the thing that will shock future historians) it means the ultimate result is the end of the liberal democracy

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    What this all links back to, of course, is European imperial guilt (and I include the U.S. settlers in that) and the warped interpretation of Darwin's theses on evolution as applied to human racial characteristics, which culminated in the savagery of Nazi Germany. In Australia, the southern US and parts of Europe this didn't fully peter out until the 1960s/1970s. In Southern Africa, much more recently.

    I think Western policy has suffered from guilt and hysterical imbalance towards social and cultural matters ever since. And it shows no sign of ending as certain ex-colonies grow in economic power and are now making noises about reparations.

    They know they might get it.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466

    Welfare reform was in the manifesto. If the Lords blocks it are they going to propose an alternative £12 billion in cuts as was in the manifesto?

    TRIPLE LOCK!!!!
    I'd agree with that. Time for wealthy pensioners to be targets. That might calm some of the 'boomers r teh evilz' we're increasingly seeing.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    edited October 2015
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
    Tory steps in with jackboots and cannot hide his bitter twisted hatred of the SNP. Get a life toom tabard.
    Nat jumps to the rescue of wealthy ex-pat - Connery Syndrome I believe it's called.

    Haven't you got a children's author to abuse Malc ?
    What a saddo, not just a simple liar , I leave abusing people to lowlifes like you.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,822

    antifrank said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
    You've gone a bit malcolmg there.
    Do you see this as the slightest bit relevant? I'd credited you with more intelligence than that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,392
    JEO said:

    The cuts to welfare were in the Tory manifesto. For an undemocratic house to overrule this would be completely inappropriate. Especially when it is done by the Lib Dems, who have a share of the Lords far ahead of their elected representation or vote share. Given their past statements on the Lords it would actually be rank hypocrisy.

    The Lib Dems (or at least some of them) have made no two bones about the fact that they can both embarass the government with their obstructionism and, furthermore, through that same behaviour advance the case for reform amongst Conservative MPs.

    Win-win.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988

    antifrank said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
    You've gone a bit malcolmg there.
    He is extremely intelligent but not quite up with me just yet
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,267
    JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Roger said:

    charles
    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    What a load of sanctimonious tosh. The same could be said of most of sub-Saharan Africa, and the vast majority of developing Asia, the peoples of which would have a vastly improved standard of living if they moved to the UK. Of course it might get a little crowded, still no need to worry about that living where you do eh ?
    That's what the free market's for. If you can't afford to eat, you starve.

    It worked for 19th Century America.
    The immigrants to 19th Century America were generally people of a liberal persuasion who began thinking of themselves as American first within one generation, certainly two. Their level of productivity was also pretty close to that of the people already there. And there was vast amounts of land available to settle on.
    “Vast amounts of land” which until then supported the way of life of the indigenous people.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
    You've gone a bit malcolmg there.
    Do you see this as the slightest bit relevant? I'd credited you with more intelligence than that.
    Soor plum goes off to find sense of humour to repair the bypass
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,392
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Poll out today in the Netherlands, puts Gert Vilders on 37% with an 18 point lead. I find that worrying.

    I want him to win, even though he is a demagogue.

    Why?

    The EU and the liberal left has to be scared, by electoral disaster, into seeing sense. There really IS a limit to the amount of Muslim immigration any western society can accept, a limit which, if exceeded, will change that society forever, and in horribly less-liberal directions.

    Given

    Trouble is, the left won't see it - they'll just turn up their vitriol against the hard right and see the immigrants as being fellow enemies of that hard right.

    Europe is doomed. We have allowed a culture of wet-liberal-lefty nonsense take over completely and any challenge to that is met with a backlash, even if

    Maybe some future historians will examine the structural weakness of the centre right and its inability to mount any kind of challenge to the wet-liberal-lefty nonsense that allowed Europe to be led to its doom.
    I don't think the future historian will care about our "left v right" politics, and on this issue neither should we frankly. We are dealing with the potential downfall of our civilisation, at least on the European continent. Collectively we have allowed for decades now the culture that is leading to this doom to not only flourish but become ingrained. The reaction to the drowned boy off Turkey was probably the best exemplification of this - instead of thinking "why did such an irresponsible father take such action" everyone exclaimed "oh what have WE done??"

    We're pathetic and we'll be rightly wiped out.
    The breakdown of the "mainstream" European Right, and its replacement by the insurgent Right is still fascinating to watch.
    How are UKIP doing?
    One MP (-1), Zero councils (-1) and a number of councillors lost.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-34517022
    I was referring to Continental Europe. I should have made myself clearer.

    Here, the main right wing party is protected by the electoral system. If we had a continental system, then that party would need confidence and supply from the insurgents.
    Although the policy being followed by the UK Government in relation to the migrant crisis would be considered as one of the 'insurgent Right' amongst most of the political establishment of continental Europe.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    John_M said:

    Charles said:

    @SouthamObserver FPT

    From a position of wealth it is, of course, easy to mock "the howls of anguish" of hard-working people who will see their incomes cut as a result of the tax credit cuts and will suffer significant privations as a result. But it's not a great look.

    If you had read my post...

    The "howls of anguish" were from left wingers identifying edge cases

    They were not from hard working people seeing their incomes cut

    Will be when the letters drop though.
    Good morning all. If Cameron wishes, the government can stick to its guns. The election is in 2020, not 2016. I've yet to find (or even create from the data I've found) hard numbers for those affected.

    Yes, there are certainly edge cases, as there always are with threshold-related policies. How many of those edge cases exist in practice, it's harder to say with any authority.
    Funnily enough I agree. The Tories have a mandate to cut welfare by £12bn. The problem is they said falls to working tax credits were not ahead whilst positioning themselves as the new party of the workers.

    Personally I say bring on the pain of the ideology of surplus.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Roger said:

    charles

    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    Well, clearly they need to make sure it's spent effectively too.

    But no, just because there are problems in Syria it doesn't mean we should rip up such immigration controls as still exist. Apart from anything else, denuding Syria of its future will cause (even more) long term instability for the region. It is best for all sides that they go back home as soon as the situation allows.

    If the EU, in conjunction with other powers, wants to do something useful, then putting together an effective nation (re-)building programme, plus the necessary capacity to deliver it, would be a good start.
    That assumes that the concept of a nation-state isn't itself racist.

    It isn't. To use 'racist' in such a way removes any meaning from the term.
    The term lost its meaning years ago

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637

    John_M said:

    Charles said:

    @SouthamObserver FPT

    From a position of wealth it is, of course, easy to mock "the howls of anguish" of hard-working people who will see their incomes cut as a result of the tax credit cuts and will suffer significant privations as a result. But it's not a great look.

    If you had read my post...

    The "howls of anguish" were from left wingers identifying edge cases

    They were not from hard working people seeing their incomes cut

    Will be when the letters drop though.
    Good morning all. If Cameron wishes, the government can stick to its guns. The election is in 2020, not 2016. I've yet to find (or even create from the data I've found) hard numbers for those affected.

    Yes, there are certainly edge cases, as there always are with threshold-related policies. How many of those edge cases exist in practice, it's harder to say with any authority.
    Funnily enough I agree. The Tories have a mandate to cut welfare by £12bn. The problem is they said falls to working tax credits were not ahead whilst positioning themselves as the new party of the workers.

    Personally I say bring on the pain of the ideology of surplus.
    Can you provide a link to that?
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited October 2015
    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
    Tory steps in with jackboots and cannot hide his bitter twisted hatred of the SNP. Get a life toom tabard.
    Nat jumps to the rescue of wealthy ex-pat - Connery Syndrome I believe it's called.

    Haven't you got a children's author to abuse Malc ?
    What a saddo, not just a simple liar , I leave abusing people to lowlifes like you.
    I see Sturgeon is wisely distancing herself from the Wings over Scotland hatemonger.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,975

    JEO said:

    The cuts to welfare were in the Tory manifesto. For an undemocratic house to overrule this would be completely inappropriate. Especially when it is done by the Lib Dems, who have a share of the Lords far ahead of their elected representation or vote share. Given their past statements on the Lords it would actually be rank hypocrisy.

    The Lib Dems (or at least some of them) have made no two bones about the fact that they can both embarass the government with their obstructionism and, furthermore, through that same behaviour advance the case for reform amongst Conservative MPs.

    Win-win.
    Other than it leaves them jobless.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,392
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    second.. I am beginning to think a small swerve round this issue might be the right thing to do.. meanwhile the bishops continue to do the wrong thing and continue to stink of hypocrisy

    Does TSE know this Manchester bishop?


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3278492/Church-England-bishop-preaches-allowing-Syrian-refugees-Britain-won-t-six-bedroom-house.html

    That's not hypocrisy. That's in the same Daily Mail that published this:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-3239347/Refugees-welcome-Age-Stupid-Yvette-Cooper-s-pledge-migrant-family-proof-noisy-emotion-replaced-quiet-intelligence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

    Now that IS hypocrisy.

    Neither Yvette Cooper's willingness to take migrants in or the bishop's unwillingness to do so have got anything to do with whether we as a nation should take more migrants, except in the minds of dullards, arseholes and cretins.
    You've gone a bit malcolmg there.
    Do you see this as the slightest bit relevant? I'd credited you with more intelligence than that.
    Woah. Take a chill pill!

    I was only teasing you.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:

    Roger said:

    Doddy

    " the shame lies with the Bishops, Politicos and assorted do gooders who shout the most and do the least...that would seem to include you."

    I've seen several of these wretched people crossing the border from Italy into France with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a backpack with all their belongings.

    Of all the injustices in the world not many strike me as more unfair than that while these people have had to leave their homes and country with nothing and with no hope people like you can decide whether it's more benefitial to park your backside in England where you'll get free heathcare or Italy where you can continue to drink yourself stupid........

    Have you taken any in or helped out at your local refugee soup kitchen ?

    All hot air and no action Roger - have you thought of joining the SNP ?
    Tory steps in with jackboots and cannot hide his bitter twisted hatred of the SNP. Get a life toom tabard.
    Be gentle with Flashy, he's stinging a bit after all that free money that cost him so much yesterday.
    Am happy to live with the consequences of my actions - you Nats should try it some time.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Roger said:

    charles
    These refugees want work and a life not a tent in the desert. Do the government really think that giving money to much poorer nations than themselves to provide food and medicine absolves them of all other responsibilities?

    What a load of sanctimonious tosh. The same could be said of most of sub-Saharan Africa, and the vast majority of developing Asia, the peoples of which would have a vastly improved standard of living if they moved to the UK. Of course it might get a little crowded, still no need to worry about that living where you do eh ?
    That's what the free market's for. If you can't afford to eat, you starve.

    It worked for 19th Century America.
    The immigrants to 19th Century America were generally people of a liberal persuasion who began thinking of themselves as American first within one generation, certainly two. Their level of productivity was also pretty close to that of the people already there. And there was vast amounts of land available to settle on.
    “Vast amounts of land” which until then supported the way of life of the indigenous people.
    So the indigenous people do matter then?

    The left can't have this both ways. Complain we are not taking in millions of refugees into a small island with no space yet complain that hundreds of years ago settlers apparently took the vast amounts of lands available and way of life of the " indigenous people"

    The left is disappearing up its own fundament on this one.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. 63, the CinemaSins chap (does the Everything Wrong With... videos) uses 'racist' for things that are racist. And sexist. And ageist. And nationalist. And that aren't bigoted at all. [It's deliberately daft].
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