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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Blue and the Purple – the threat of a Tory civil war ov

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited October 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Blue and the Purple – the threat of a Tory civil war over the EU

David Cameron is a popular leader of the Conservative party.  He has consistently outpolled it, tugging it along in his wake.  His brisk, warm, unideological Conservativism (which is closer to the Christian Democracy found on the continent than to the Thatcherism that has prevailed in the Conservative party for the last 30 years in Britain) appeals to many.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,664
    Thanks for the article, Antifrank. This is the main reason why I am very uncomfortable with those confident predictions that the Tories have already won 2020.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    edited October 2015
    Yet another very good article from @antifrank. There is already pressure from the "live and breathers" for the PM's negotiations to be conducted in public - which is never a good idea.

    In my mind the key decision will be whether Cameron allows ministers to campaign according to their conscience - if he doesn't then the party could well end up split down the middle, with half the Cabinet forced to resign and everyone aggressively taking their side as they position for life after Dave.
  • It's general not a bad thing for an incumbent leader to fight their party's fringe, as long as they conclusively win. And if he wins the referendum for "in", that's what Cameron would have done, isn't it?

    Alternatively the referendum is for "out" then whoever was the most senior gutsy opportunist to defect to the "out" side will take over leadership of the party instead, so it will no longer matter who is and isn't still speaking to David Cameron.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,550
    Thanks Antifrank. Well I Hope the remainers will be a very small remainder of the tory party once the vote comes along. Look at Portugal where the democratic will of the people is now being denied thanks to the EU and their president in an unholy alliance stopping at nothing in a futile attempt to save the euro.
  • hunchman said:

    Thanks Antifrank. Well I Hope the remainers will be a very small remainder of the tory party once the vote comes along. Look at Portugal where the democratic will of the people is now being denied thanks to the EU and their president in an unholy alliance stopping at nothing in a futile attempt to save the euro.

    Generally speaking if you're the sitting PM and the largest party and nobody has an overall majority you get the first chance to try to form a government and see if parliament will vote for it.

    PS. Politics throws up some strange alliances sometimes but Right-wing British Eurosceptics + Anti-Austerity European Communists has to be the weirdest one for a while.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149

    hunchman said:

    Thanks Antifrank. Well I Hope the remainers will be a very small remainder of the tory party once the vote comes along. Look at Portugal where the democratic will of the people is now being denied thanks to the EU and their president in an unholy alliance stopping at nothing in a futile attempt to save the euro.

    Generally speaking if you're the sitting PM and the largest party and nobody has an overall majority you get the first chance to try to form a government and see if parliament will vote for it.

    PS. Politics throws up some strange alliances sometimes but Right-wing British Eurosceptics + Anti-Austerity European Communists has to be the weirdest one for a while.
    The concept that the incumbent gets the first opportunity to form a government was the thinking behind Cameron's very public offer to Clegg in 2010. He knew that Brown held the upper hand and would stay on to try and cobble together a coalition if it wasn't clear that the Conservatives could lead a majority.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,607
    edited October 2015
    Sandpit said:

    hunchman said:

    Thanks Antifrank. Well I Hope the remainers will be a very small remainder of the tory party once the vote comes along. Look at Portugal where the democratic will of the people is now being denied thanks to the EU and their president in an unholy alliance stopping at nothing in a futile attempt to save the euro.

    Generally speaking if you're the sitting PM and the largest party and nobody has an overall majority you get the first chance to try to form a government and see if parliament will vote for it.

    PS. Politics throws up some strange alliances sometimes but Right-wing British Eurosceptics + Anti-Austerity European Communists has to be the weirdest one for a while.
    The concept that the incumbent gets the first opportunity to form a government was the thinking behind Cameron's very public offer to Clegg in 2010. He knew that Brown held the upper hand and would stay on to try and cobble together a coalition if it wasn't clear that the Conservatives could lead a majority.
    It must be a tricky situation for the centre-left leader right now, because if he does what everyone expected him to do after he lost the election and props up a right-wing government, his party is liable to go the way of PASOK and the LibDems.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637
    @antifrank

    You are forgetting that Cameron doesn't want his legacy to be the man who split the Tory Party. Peel might have got a second chance and redeemed himself, but Cameron won't.

    If he backs Remain, wins a marginal victory, and leave 1/3 of the Tory party split that's a terrible result for him.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Quite a long article just to remind us that the EU is a struggle between dominant people and pillow biters.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    edited October 2015
    Ooh, an early wicket for England. Mishbah caught for 87. Pak 224/4
    Unfortunately too little too late though, we're never going to chase 350 on this pitch.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,637
    Heathrow surprisingly busy for a Sunday morning.

    Your clock setting needs updating for BST. It's still goddamm early
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The clocks have not gone back an hour. Summer time ended during the night. Shame on PB not being ready.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    "But this is where the traditionalist right’s loathing of David Cameron matters. They don’t like him and they sure as hell don’t trust him. They think that he is going to rig the vote against them and they’re determined not to let that happen. So far they have sniped at him over the wording of the referendum question, kept pawing at whether and to what extent the government will go into purdah during the referendum campaign and are now calling for him to suspend collective Cabinet responsibility on the subject of the EU referendum. They are approaching these subjects in the same way that the Americans approached discussions with the Iranians over the nuclear talks, with the same complete absence of any goodwill."

    This is a complete nonsense of a paragraph. I'm someone that generally likes Cameron (although am willing to criticise on occasion), and is undecided on my referendum vote. Wanting to have a fair question, an election free from undue use of taxpayer cash, or the same freedom for cabinet members to argue their honest beliefs as they had in 1975 is not a symptom of loathing of David Cameron, but a basic commitment to the democratic process.

    This article tries to pre-emptively blame the eurosceptics for any split, when actually it is dishonest tactics like eliminating purdah or pre-emptively sacking cabinet ministers that would be the cause of it. In fact, given such nefarious tactics, I think the eurosceptics have been remarkable restrained.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    In addition, I am quite appalled at the suggestion that people could vote for party loyalty reasons. As Liz Kendall said, the country should come first.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    One last point: the analogy that the Americans did not have any good will with the Iranians is rather ridiculous, given the Americans signed a deal with the Iranians.
  • The government shouldn't be ordering people to tinker with clocks. Compliance just encourages them.

    In any case I'm seeing the times in JST here. I guess it's getting the time from your browser - maybe try logging out and logging back in again? If that doesn't work, you should be able to fix it by moving to Japan.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Hooray!! PB clock altered - but surreptitiously. ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149

    The government shouldn't be ordering people to tinker with clocks. Compliance just encourages them.

    In any case I'm seeing the times in JST here. I guess it's getting the time from your browser - maybe try logging out and logging back in again? If that doesn't work, you should be able to fix it by moving to Japan.

    For me it's always shown local time when logged in or GMT when logged out. No change of clocks here so can't test, but I'd guess that the Vanilla login process notes the local time zone, so logging out and back in again should work if anyone has the wrong time this morning.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    edited October 2015
    Sunday Telegraph editorial urging Osborne to stay on course with welfare reform, suggesting that outside the metropolitan handwringing left there is strong public support, especially when the average man understands the generosity of tax credits.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/11951120/There-must-be-no-surrender-on-tax-credit-reform.html

    Back in July, Harriet Harman, Labour’s relatively sensible acting leader, admitted that the British people want welfare reform. Explaining why her party would not fight Tory plans to scrap child tax credits for more than two children, she said that she had met mothers angry that there were those who could afford larger families thanks to benefits. Ms Harman is not the only Left-winger to have addressed the toxic legacy of Gordon Brown’s tax credit revolution. Alistair Darling, chancellor under Mr Brown, said they were “subsidising lower wages”
    ...
    It turned out that trying to make the welfare system more efficient and equitable was actually one of the Conservative’s most popular policies – a point conceded by Ms Harman during her summer of sanity. The public, she admitted, “did not trust [Labour] on the economy and benefits”. They do, by contrast, trust the Tories to try to get it right. Mr Osborne must not let them down.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    I see Tony Blair apologised for the intelligence they received being wrong. What a dishonest politician this man is. Alistair Campbell intensively pressured the intelligence agencies to come up with more stuff, and Tony Blair misrepresented their position in parliament by leaving out that the 45 minute claim only applied to the battlefield. In addition, when the legal advice they received wasn't to their liking, they sacked Sir Michael Woord, the chief legal advisor, causing the deputy to resign in protest. For his replacement, they hired a man who makes a living defending the Israelis' actions in Gaza, knowing he would provide the right legal advice.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,552
    Absolutely brilliant, Mr Antifran, coming up with the term "Remainders" for half the Tory MPs. Though I think it would be better applied to the more elderly half perhaps.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521
    "The smart money must be factoring in the high likelihood that by the end of the referendum campaign some Conservatives will not be on speaking terms"


    Isn't this the case already?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    Pakistan lead past 400 now. Backing the hosts at 1/5 is better value than laying the draw at 1/7, unless you think that England can score 400 or it will rain in the next 30 hours in Dubai (it won't!).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: qualifying scheduled for 2pm, which is a shame as the P3 times would give us a nice grid.

    On-topic: Out would be better for the Conservatives than In, on a purely party political basis. Because of the timing of Cameron's departure, the leadership contest (if In wins) could become an Outers versus Inners civil war, or allow a unity candidate to exert influence [that said, the question of whether and when to have another vote would be a vexed matter].
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,314
    edited October 2015
    MTimT said:

    Thanks for the article, Antifrank. This is the main reason why I am very uncomfortable with those confident predictions that the Tories have already won 2020.

    We could easily end up with both major parties being badly split by 2020 - Labour already is.

    However, there is a crucial difference. Whoever is leading the Conservatives will be from the mainstream part of the party, and the fringe will be seen to be attacking them. Whoever is leading Labour - assuming, for the moment, that it is either Corbyn or a nominated successor like Trickett, which is the likeliest scenario - will be leading the fringe in an attack on the mainstream. Moreover, the Conservatives will be split over Europe (same old, same old) Labour will be split over whether to renationalise the Royal Mail (Back to the Future Part IV).

    At the present time, I do not think that there is any major political issue that is toxic enough to drive voters back to a Labour party in the middle of a civil war who are dominated by a group of geriatric nobodies with low IQs, a past history that they are fortunate not to be explaining to a judge and a lingering bitterness about the fact that Socialism has failed disastrously everywhere it has been tried. Tax credits might do it, but it doesn't seem likely that it will have wildly more traction than the bedroom tax even though it will affect considerably more people. The European referendum almost certainly won't, as it is a non-party problem and will split all the major parties (although I have no doubt the Conservatives will be the most publicly split).

    For the moment that leaves the Conservatives, whatever the situation, as the only game in town for a government. The snag is, divided parties produce on the whole quite bad governments (cf John Major, Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Alec Douglas-Home...)
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,409
    Mr Article,

    A good article, but Cameron could make a virtue out of necessity. A natural politician would come back from negotiations and admit that they haven't got everything they wanted, but nevertheless, on balance, he'd recommend remain as they've negotiated some very useful changes for the UK. However, he's happy for the MPs to make their own decision and campaign accordingly.

    It would be far more difficult to lay a glove on him, especially if Jezza is in Stalinist mood.

    Somehow, I can't see it. He may think he's rather good at politics but is he?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521
    ydoethur said:

    MTimT said:

    Thanks for the article, Antifrank. This is the main reason why I am very uncomfortable with those confident predictions that the Tories have already won 2020.

    We could easily end up with both major parties being badly split by 2020 - Labour already is.

    However, there is a crucial difference. Whoever is leading the Conservatives will be the mainstream part of the party, and the fringe will be seen to be attacking them. Whoever is leading Labour - assuming, for the moment, that it is either Corbyn or a nominated successor like Trickett, which is the likeliest scenario - will be leading the fringe in an attack on the mainstream. Moreover, the Conservatives will be split over Europe (same old, same old) Labour will be split over whether to renationalise the Royal Mail (Back to the Future Part IV).

    At the present time, I do not think that there is any major political issue that is toxic enough to drive voters back to a Labour party in the middle of a civil war who are dominated by a group of geriatric nobodies with low IQs, a past history that they are fortunate not to be explaining to a judge and a lingering bitterness about the fact that Socialism has failed disastrously everywhere it has been tried. Tax credits might do it, but it doesn't seem likely that it will have wildly more traction than the bedroom tax even though it will affect considerably more people. The European referendum almost certainly won't, as it is a non-party problem and will split all the major parties (although I have no doubt the Conservatives will be the most publicly split).

    For the moment that leaves the Conservatives, whatever the situation, as the only game in town for a government. The snag is, divided parties produce on the whole quite bad governments (cf John Major, Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Alec Douglas-Home...)
    Quite so. The lack of a credible opposition is the Tories greatest weakness. Get the tough stuff out of the way now so that its cuddly bunnies come the GE. Seriously tho, Labour are supposed to be holding the Govt to account. At the moment its not happening as civil war looms. The media are fulfilling the role vacated by Labour. Corbyn's e mails from Emily strategy is a load of pap.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Strongly agree with this piece on free speech:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34613855
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988

    ydoethur said:

    MTimT said:

    Thanks for the article, Antifrank. This is the main reason why I am very uncomfortable with those confident predictions that the Tories have already won 2020.

    We could easily end up with both major parties being badly split by 2020 - Labour already is.

    However, there is a crucial difference. Whoever is leading the Conservatives will be the mainstream part of the party, and the fringe will be seen to be attacking them. Whoever is leading Labour - assuming, for the moment, that it is either Corbyn or a nominated successor like Trickett, which is the likeliest scenario - will be leading the fringe in an attack on the mainstream. Moreover, the Conservatives will be split over Europe (same old, same old) Labour will be split over whether to renationalise the Royal Mail (Back to the Future Part IV).

    At the present time, I do not think that there is any major political issue that is toxic enough to drive voters back to a Labour party in the middle of a civil war who are dominated by a group of geriatric nobodies with low IQs, a past history that they are fortunate not to be explaining to a judge and a lingering bitterness about the fact that Socialism has failed disastrously everywhere it has been tried. Tax credits might do it, but it doesn't seem likely that it will have wildly more traction than the bedroom tax even though it will affect considerably more people. The European referendum almost certainly won't, as it is a non-party problem and will split all the major parties (although I have no doubt the Conservatives will be the most publicly split).

    For the moment that leaves the Conservatives, whatever the situation, as the only game in town for a government. The snag is, divided parties produce on the whole quite bad governments (cf John Major, Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Alec Douglas-Home...)
    Quite so. The lack of a credible opposition is the Tories greatest weakness. Get the tough stuff out of the way now so that its cuddly bunnies come the GE. Seriously tho, Labour are supposed to be holding the Govt to account. At the moment its not happening as civil war looms. The media are fulfilling the role vacated by Labour. Corbyn's e mails from Emily strategy is a load of pap.
    the media are crap , full of self important windbags who have no clue of reality.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,314

    Strongly agree with this piece on free speech:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34613855

    As you say Mr Dancer, a very fine article.

    It will doubtless get torrents of online abuse calling for him to be sacked/burned at the stake/forced to listen to Iain Duncan Smith's speeches for 15 hours straight...

    But if you cannot say something offensive, we do not have freedom of speech. Nobody needs permission to say something true or polite.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Doethur, my view exactly. Freedom to be agreeable isn't freedom of speech.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,349
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    MTimT said:

    Thanks for the article, Antifrank. This is the main reason why I am very uncomfortable with those confident predictions that the Tories have already won 2020.

    We could easily end up with both major parties being badly split by 2020 - Labour already is.

    However, there is a crucial difference. Whoever is leading the Conservatives will be the mainstream part of the party, and the fringe will be seen to be attacking them. Whoever is leading Labour - assuming, for the moment, that it is either Corbyn or a nominated successor like Trickett, which is the likeliest scenario - will be leading the fringe in an attack on the mainstream. Moreover, the Conservatives will be split over Europe (same old, same old) Labour will be split over whether to renationalise the Royal Mail (Back to the Future Part IV).

    At the present time, I do not think that there is any major political issue that is toxic enough to drive voters back to a Labour party in the middle of a civil war who are dominated by a group of geriatric nobodies with low IQs, a past history that they are fortunate not to be explaining to a judge and a lingering bitterness about the fact that Socialism has failed disastrously everywhere it has been tried. Tax credits might do it, but it doesn't seem likely that it will have wildly more traction than the bedroom tax even though it will affect considerably more people. The European referendum almost certainly won't, as it is a non-party problem and will split all the major parties (although I have no doubt the Conservatives will be the most publicly split).

    For the moment that leaves the Conservatives, whatever the situation, as the only game in town for a government. The snag is, divided parties produce on the whole quite bad governments (cf John Major, Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Alec Douglas-Home...)
    Quite so. The lack of a credible opposition is the Tories greatest weakness. Get the tough stuff out of the way now so that its cuddly bunnies come the GE. Seriously tho, Labour are supposed to be holding the Govt to account. At the moment its not happening as civil war looms. The media are fulfilling the role vacated by Labour. Corbyn's e mails from Emily strategy is a load of pap.
    the media are crap , full of self important windbags who have no clue of reality.
    A mild breeze wafting through PB from Ayrshire this morning ?!? ....



  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 36,517
    malcolmg said:

    the media are crap , full of self important windbags who have no clue of reality.

    Now, now, Malc, he only writes a couple of columns a week...

    http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    CD13 said:

    Mr Article,

    A good article, but Cameron could make a virtue out of necessity. A natural politician would come back from negotiations and admit that they haven't got everything they wanted, but nevertheless, on balance, he'd recommend remain as they've negotiated some very useful changes for the UK. However, he's happy for the MPs to make their own decision and campaign accordingly.

    It would be far more difficult to lay a glove on him, especially if Jezza is in Stalinist mood.

    Somehow, I can't see it. He may think he's rather good at politics but is he?

    Indeed. People are grown ups and are capable of having an amicable disagreement if it goes to a fair, honest vote and the British public decide. What will turn this thing toxic is if New Labour style deceit and arm-twisting is the order of the day.

    The thing to remember here is that it's not the split in the MPs that's important. As Labour have found, what matters far more is how the membership of the party reacts. And unless there's a big swing towards Remain, it looks like the bulk will be on the Leave side of the argument. If those people feel the Remainers within the Conservative Party are dishonest, they will take it out on them in the next leadership election.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    JackW said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    MTimT said:

    Thanks for the article, Antifrank. This is the main reason why I am very uncomfortable with those confident predictions that the Tories have already won 2020.

    We could easily end up with both major parties being badly split by 2020 - Labour already is.

    However, there is a crucial difference. Whoever is leading the Conservatives will be the mainstream part of the party, and the fringe will be seen to be attacking them. Whoever is leading Labour - assuming, for the moment, that it is either Corbyn or a nominated successor like Trickett, which is the likeliest scenario - will be leading the fringe in an attack on the mainstream. Moreover, the Conservatives will be split over Europe (same old, same old) Labour will be split over whether to renationalise the Royal Mail (Back to the Future Part IV).

    At the present time, I do not think that there is any major political issue that is toxic enough to drive voters back to a Labour party in the middle of a civil war who are dominated by a group of geriatric nobodies with low IQs, a past history that they are fortunate not to be explaining to a judge and a lingering bitterness about the fact that Socialism has failed disastrously everywhere it has been tried. Tax credits might do it, but it doesn't seem likely that it will have wildly more traction than the bedroom tax even though it will affect considerably more people. The European referendum almost certainly won't, as it is a non-party problem and will split all the major parties (although I have no doubt the Conservatives will be the most publicly split).

    For the moment that leaves the Conservatives, whatever the situation, as the only game in town for a government. The snag is, divided parties produce on the whole quite bad governments (cf John Major, Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Alec Douglas-Home...)
    Quite so. The lack of a credible opposition is the Tories greatest weakness. Get the tough stuff out of the way now so that its cuddly bunnies come the GE. Seriously tho, Labour are supposed to be holding the Govt to account. At the moment its not happening as civil war looms. The media are fulfilling the role vacated by Labour. Corbyn's e mails from Emily strategy is a load of pap.
    the media are crap , full of self important windbags who have no clue of reality.
    A mild breeze wafting through PB from Ayrshire this morning ?!? ....



    Morning Jack , sun shining in God's country, all is well in Ayrshire.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    the media are crap , full of self important windbags who have no clue of reality.

    Now, now, Malc, he only writes a couple of columns a week...

    http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond
    For Scottish Media that would be100% increase of decent articles. The Scottish media are 100 times worse than the London garbage.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JEO said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Article,

    A good article, but Cameron could make a virtue out of necessity. A natural politician would come back from negotiations and admit that they haven't got everything they wanted, but nevertheless, on balance, he'd recommend remain as they've negotiated some very useful changes for the UK. However, he's happy for the MPs to make their own decision and campaign accordingly.

    It would be far more difficult to lay a glove on him, especially if Jezza is in Stalinist mood.

    Somehow, I can't see it. He may think he's rather good at politics but is he?

    Indeed. People are grown ups and are capable of having an amicable disagreement if it goes to a fair, honest vote and the British public decide. What will turn this thing toxic is if New Labour style deceit and arm-twisting is the order of the day.

    The thing to remember here is that it's not the split in the MPs that's important. As Labour have found, what matters far more is how the membership of the party reacts. And unless there's a big swing towards Remain, it looks like the bulk will be on the Leave side of the argument. If those people feel the Remainers within the Conservative Party are dishonest, they will take it out on them in the next leadership election.
    I recall recent polls show most Con voters are "Inners", albeit fairly narrowly.

    The current migrant crisis and consequent discussion of open borders, entitlement to welfare and also of pan-European co-operation does give an unusually receptive time for a new EU treaty. It is not just us that may want some tighter rules.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    Lunch. Pakistan 447 ahead. If they declare now I might go and watch the afternoon session, or did I jinx England yesterday watching them lose seven wickets in a single morning session?
  • ydoethur said:

    Strongly agree with this piece on free speech:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34613855

    As you say Mr Dancer, a very fine article.

    It will doubtless get torrents of online abuse calling for him to be sacked/burned at the stake/forced to listen to Iain Duncan Smith's speeches for 15 hours straight...

    But if you cannot say something offensive, we do not have freedom of speech. Nobody needs permission to say something true or polite.
    It is hardly surprising that Peebietories demand the right to give, but not to take offence. Most of us demand the right to do what comes naturally to us, whether or not it involves drink, drugs and animals.

    I like to think that every post I make gives them deep offence, and that they are sufficiently adult to ignore them. But that's only what I like to think...

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Abroad, who has asked for the right to never be offended?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Let me ask the Staffordshire question again ?

    The EU ref result was 51 - 49 to REMAIN.

    Will the Tory Right or the Kippers just accept it for ever ?
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    'He stood alone, close to the path of the Chinese leader’s procession. In each hand he held up a small placard (making a nonsense of excuses that he might have been hiding a weapon or a bomb). One said: ‘End autocracy.’ The other read: ‘Democracy now.’

    The man’s name is Shao Jiang. He witnessed the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in Peking’s Tiananmen Square in 1989 so he knows in detail what modern China is really like, as most of us don’t.

    Suddenly he was barged by a police officer in a crash helmet, quickly joined by two colleagues, who pushed him backwards at the double, as he feebly protested. I have watched the film at least 50 times and can see no justification for the level of force used. But I can explain it. It looks as if the police were ordered at all costs to ensure that China’s leader did not see or hear any protests.

    (Here, at just after 4 minutes 20 seconds (no whingeing, please, about the exact time), is film of what happened to Shao Jiang:

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid601325122001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAEabvr4~,Wtd2HT-p_Vh4qBcIZDrvZlvNCU8nxccG&bctid=4570666989001 )

    Two Tibetan women, who did no more than try to wave the flag of their stolen country, were also arrested.

    All three were held overnight, on suspicion of offences which expert lawyers think are quite absurd, and which look to me as if they were devised to keep them off the streets until the Chinese leader had gone home.

    They must wait until Christmas to find out if they will be prosecuted. Worse still, their homes were raided and searched, and some personal possessions removed, just as they would have been in Peking. This, for holding up a couple of placards and a flag? Where are we, exactly?

    It looks to me as if David Cameron and President Xi did indeed discuss freedom, law and civil rights in their private meetings. And that China’s despot persuaded Mr Cameron that the Chinese way of dealing with opposition was better than ours.'

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    JEO said:

    I see Tony Blair apologised for the intelligence they received being wrong. What a dishonest politician this man is. Alistair Campbell intensively pressured the intelligence agencies to come up with more stuff, and Tony Blair misrepresented their position in parliament by leaving out that the 45 minute claim only applied to the battlefield. In addition, when the legal advice they received wasn't to their liking, they sacked Sir Michael Woord, the chief legal advisor, causing the deputy to resign in protest. For his replacement, they hired a man who makes a living defending the Israelis' actions in Gaza, knowing he would provide the right legal advice.

    The Warmonger should in the dock in the Hague.

  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    'Mr Jiang knew he was likely to be arrested for attempting to disrupt the Chinese leader’s visit. What he didn’t expect was the force used to detain him – and that he would subsequently be re-arrested for abusive behaviour against President Xi Jingping, and that his home would be searched in the middle of the night. His computers were also seized.

    “My arrest has brought back memories of my arrests in 1989 when my parents were harassed, and in 1995 when my wife became repressed by the government and they searched our home,” he said. “It feels like it is happening again, but unlike campaigners in China I have been able to speak to a lawyer who can defend my rights. That couldn’t happen in China, my lawyer would be arrested or ‘disappeared’.”

    His wife, Johanna Zhang, said the couple were more “positive” now after taking legal advice and again rejected suggestions he was planning to threaten anybody. “He was protesting peacefully,” she said. “I am so nervous when the door knocks now, my first reaction is that it is the police.” '

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/shao-jiang-protester-says-uk-now-as-bad-as-china-over-human-rights-a6706846.html
  • Mr. Abroad, who has asked for the right to never be offended?

    I didn't say that. I didn't imply that. And you know I didn't.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    Let me ask the Staffordshire question again ?

    The EU ref result was 51 - 49 to REMAIN.

    Will the Tory Right or the Kippers just accept it for ever ?

    Of course not. No referendum result is ever going to be final either way. If we are out then I expect for the inners to push for an EEA membership that looks a lot like what we have now.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Isam, not seen the video.

    Given the risk of suicide bombers, the strong reaction to someone apparently only having flags does not in itself sound unreasonable. Trumped up nonsense charges are another matter, but even more serious is the taking of personal possessions and the searching of their home (be interested to know if a warrant was attained and, if so, on what premise).

    Posted earlier on freedom of speech. There seem to be three major concerns: religious zealots who demand the right to never hear anything that disagrees with their own view, the hysterics who fetishise victimhood, and governments.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Abroad, "It is hardly surprising that Peebietories demand the right to give, but not to take offence. Most of us demand the right to do what comes naturally to us, whether or not it involves drink, drugs and animals. "

    Morris Dancer: "Mr. Abroad, who has asked for the right to never be offended?"

    Mr. Abroad: "I didn't say that. I didn't imply that. And you know I didn't."

    In that case... you appear to be equating taking offence with just cause for something being forbidden. I don't mind if people are offended. I mind if they consider the sentence "I am offended" as an actual argument for someone else to be forbidden from saying something.

    Freedom of speech matters more than placating the terminally hyper-sensitive, the religious fundamentalist or the weak-kneed government.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    Mr. Isam, not seen the video.

    Given the risk of suicide bombers, the strong reaction to someone apparently only having flags does not in itself sound unreasonable. Trumped up nonsense charges are another matter, but even more serious is the taking of personal possessions and the searching of their home (be interested to know if a warrant was attained and, if so, on what premise).

    Posted earlier on freedom of speech. There seem to be three major concerns: religious zealots who demand the right to never hear anything that disagrees with their own view, the hysterics who fetishise victimhood, and governments.

    The video is linked on the post
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    OT..Amazingly warm day here ..low 20s..
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988
    isam said:

    'He stood alone, close to the path of the Chinese leader’s procession. In each hand he held up a small placard (making a nonsense of excuses that he might have been hiding a weapon or a bomb). One said: ‘End autocracy.’ The other read: ‘Democracy now.’

    The man’s name is Shao Jiang. He witnessed the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in Peking’s Tiananmen Square in 1989 so he knows in detail what modern China is really like, as most of us don’t.

    Suddenly he was barged by a police officer in a crash helmet, quickly joined by two colleagues, who pushed him backwards at the double, as he feebly protested. I have watched the film at least 50 times and can see no justification for the level of force used. But I can explain it. It looks as if the police were ordered at all costs to ensure that China’s leader did not see or hear any protests.

    (Here, at just after 4 minutes 20 seconds (no whingeing, please, about the exact time), is film of what happened to Shao Jiang:

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid601325122001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAEabvr4~,Wtd2HT-p_Vh4qBcIZDrvZlvNCU8nxccG&bctid=4570666989001 )

    Two Tibetan women, who did no more than try to wave the flag of their stolen country, were also arrested.

    All three were held overnight, on suspicion of offences which expert lawyers think are quite absurd, and which look to me as if they were devised to keep them off the streets until the Chinese leader had gone home.

    They must wait until Christmas to find out if they will be prosecuted. Worse still, their homes were raided and searched, and some personal possessions removed, just as they would have been in Peking. This, for holding up a couple of placards and a flag? Where are we, exactly?

    It looks to me as if David Cameron and President Xi did indeed discuss freedom, law and civil rights in their private meetings. And that China’s despot persuaded Mr Cameron that the Chinese way of dealing with opposition was better than ours.'

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk

    They are well suited, the Tories do not like democracy , it is do as they say or they send in their state police goons.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,383
    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    'He stood alone, close to the path of the Chinese leader’s procession. In each hand he held up a small placard (making a nonsense of excuses that he might have been hiding a weapon or a bomb). One said: ‘End autocracy.’ The other read: ‘Democracy now.’

    The man’s name is Shao Jiang. He witnessed the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in Peking’s Tiananmen Square in 1989 so he knows in detail what modern China is really like, as most of us don’t.

    Suddenly he was barged by a police officer in a crash helmet, quickly joined by two colleagues, who pushed him backwards at the double, as he feebly protested. I have watched the film at least 50 times and can see no justification for the level of force used. But I can explain it. It looks as if the police were ordered at all costs to ensure that China’s leader did not see or hear any protests.

    (Here, at just after 4 minutes 20 seconds (no whingeing, please, about the exact time), is film of what happened to Shao Jiang:

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid601325122001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAEabvr4~,Wtd2HT-p_Vh4qBcIZDrvZlvNCU8nxccG&bctid=4570666989001 )

    Two Tibetan women, who did no more than try to wave the flag of their stolen country, were also arrested.

    All three were held overnight, on suspicion of offences which expert lawyers think are quite absurd, and which look to me as if they were devised to keep them off the streets until the Chinese leader had gone home.

    They must wait until Christmas to find out if they will be prosecuted. Worse still, their homes were raided and searched, and some personal possessions removed, just as they would have been in Peking. This, for holding up a couple of placards and a flag? Where are we, exactly?

    It looks to me as if David Cameron and President Xi did indeed discuss freedom, law and civil rights in their private meetings. And that China’s despot persuaded Mr Cameron that the Chinese way of dealing with opposition was better than ours.'

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk

    They are well suited, the Tories do not like democracy , it is do as they say or they send in their state police goons.
    Rabid frothing at the mouth Nat says Tories BAD on pb shocker
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Incidentally, it's the 600th anniversary of Agincourt today.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MD..We should all raise a glass to celebrate that great creation that has kept us safe as a nation for many years.. The English Channel..
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,521

    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    'He stood alone, close to the path of the Chinese leader’s procession. In each hand he held up a small placard (making a nonsense of excuses that he might have been hiding a weapon or a bomb). One said: ‘End autocracy.’ The other read: ‘Democracy now.’

    The man’s name is Shao Jiang. He witnessed the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in Peking’s Tiananmen Square in 1989 so he knows in detail what modern China is really like, as most of us don’t.

    Suddenly he was barged by a police officer in a crash helmet, quickly joined by two colleagues, who pushed him backwards at the double, as he feebly protested. I have watched the film at least 50 times and can see no justification for the level of force used. But I can explain it. It looks as if the police were ordered at all costs to ensure that China’s leader did not see or hear any protests.

    (Here, at just after 4 minutes 20 seconds (no whingeing, please, about the exact time), is film of what happened to Shao Jiang:

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid601325122001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAEabvr4~,Wtd2HT-p_Vh4qBcIZDrvZlvNCU8nxccG&bctid=4570666989001 )

    Two Tibetan women, who did no more than try to wave the flag of their stolen country, were also arrested.

    All three were held overnight, on suspicion of offences which expert lawyers think are quite absurd, and which look to me as if they were devised to keep them off the streets until the Chinese leader had gone home.

    They must wait until Christmas to find out if they will be prosecuted. Worse still, their homes were raided and searched, and some personal possessions removed, just as they would have been in Peking. This, for holding up a couple of placards and a flag? Where are we, exactly?

    It looks to me as if David Cameron and President Xi did indeed discuss freedom, law and civil rights in their private meetings. And that China’s despot persuaded Mr Cameron that the Chinese way of dealing with opposition was better than ours.'

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk

    They are well suited, the Tories do not like democracy , it is do as they say or they send in their state police goons.
    Rabid frothing at the mouth Nat says Tories BAD on pb shocker
    The odds of MalcG actually living in Ayrshire must be vanishingly small. Most sensible jocks left decades ago and the outflow continues.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,241
    A late entry to last night's topic - St Rollox.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    Did anyone see Michael Portillo's great continental railway journeys on
    Friday? Austria to Slovenia and Trieste

    The array of blazer, shirt & trouser combos was a triumph... He even managed to carry off UKIP gold and purple which I believe is a first
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,383

    A late entry to last night's topic - St Rollox.

    We still playing this? Châteauroux
  • Mr. Isam, not seen the video.

    Given the risk of suicide bombers, the strong reaction to someone apparently only having flags does not in itself sound unreasonable. Trumped up nonsense charges are another matter, but even more serious is the taking of personal possessions and the searching of their home (be interested to know if a warrant was attained and, if so, on what premise).

    Posted earlier on freedom of speech. There seem to be three major concerns: religious zealots who demand the right to never hear anything that disagrees with their own view, the hysterics who fetishise victimhood, and governments.

    If someone's been arrested plod can search the home without a warrant.
    Plod has history of this type of thing.
    The republicans arrested on the day of the royal wedding and driven around London on a bus for hours on end to keep them off the street until the wedding had finished for example.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    isam said:

    'Mr Jiang knew he was likely to be arrested for attempting to disrupt the Chinese leader’s visit. What he didn’t expect was the force used to detain him – and that he would subsequently be re-arrested for abusive behaviour against President Xi Jingping, and that his home would be searched in the middle of the night. His computers were also seized.

    “My arrest has brought back memories of my arrests in 1989 when my parents were harassed, and in 1995 when my wife became repressed by the government and they searched our home,” he said. “It feels like it is happening again, but unlike campaigners in China I have been able to speak to a lawyer who can defend my rights. That couldn’t happen in China, my lawyer would be arrested or ‘disappeared’.”

    His wife, Johanna Zhang, said the couple were more “positive” now after taking legal advice and again rejected suggestions he was planning to threaten anybody. “He was protesting peacefully,” she said. “I am so nervous when the door knocks now, my first reaction is that it is the police.” '

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/shao-jiang-protester-says-uk-now-as-bad-as-china-over-human-rights-a6706846.html

    Cameron and Xi did talk about Human Rights. Xi let it be known to Cameron politely that he was concerned about human rights violation in the UK particularly about police brutality and making up false accusations.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,241
    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    Cameron has always shown a remarkable indifference to the wishes and interests of the far right of the party. From his comments about the membership of UKIP to gay marriage to the way that he has been so much more willing to support certain ministers more than others he has consistently made it plain that he doesn't much care what they think and when he is asked to address their concerns he largely finds them ridiculous.

    Antifrank is right that if there is ever going to be pay back for this insouciance then it is going to be over this issue and over the last 2 or 3 years of his Premiership. On one view a man coming to the end of his term may be more vulnerable but I think that this underestimates the extent to which the Cameron/Osborne project has changed the party.

    Unlike when he took over more than 10 years ago now the party is no longer dominated by people obsessed with the EU. More moderate, centralist voices have been promoted and nurtured and the more aggressively anti EU voices have been side lined. Any politician with any kind of aspirations for office will have noted that the choice is to get with the program or to be left bitter and ignored on the back benches.

    For the right wing, however, this is the totem, the last stand, the issue. And there is no doubt that despite all the work done over the last decade that on this issue feelings run strong and deep, even deeper than the desire for office. The potential for real damage to the government is very high.

    In seeking to resolve this issue Cameron is doing one last service to the Conservative party that he has led so brilliantly and which he has restored so effectively from the dark days of Blair. Hopefully his successor, whoever that turns out to be, will not have the same problems.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    A late entry to last night's topic - St Rollox.

    More than the blazers, it is his "walk" that is eye catching !
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Congrats - what was your subject?

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Plato..Incisive and Insightful Journalism.. ...Part one of ninety...
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Agreed. Saving and re-energising it was one of Margaret Thatcher's (many) great achivements.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,974

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Totally agree, and congratulations. An OU course takes a great deal of dedication. What did you study?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,241

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Totally agree, and congratulations. An OU course takes a great deal of dedication. What did you study?
    PPE
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Pubgoer, hmm. Not sure that necessarily reinforces confidence in the way things work.

    Mr. Rentool, congrats :)
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    DavidL said:

    Cameron has always shown a remarkable indifference to the wishes and interests of the far right of the party. From his comments about the membership of UKIP to gay marriage to the way that he has been so much more willing to support certain ministers more than others he has consistently made it plain that he doesn't much care what they think and when he is asked to address their concerns he largely finds them ridiculous.

    Antifrank is right that if there is ever going to be pay back for this insouciance then it is going to be over this issue and over the last 2 or 3 years of his Premiership. On one view a man coming to the end of his term may be more vulnerable but I think that this underestimates the extent to which the Cameron/Osborne project has changed the party.

    Unlike when he took over more than 10 years ago now the party is no longer dominated by people obsessed with the EU. More moderate, centralist voices have been promoted and nurtured and the more aggressively anti EU voices have been side lined. Any politician with any kind of aspirations for office will have noted that the choice is to get with the program or to be left bitter and ignored on the back benches.

    For the right wing, however, this is the totem, the last stand, the issue. And there is no doubt that despite all the work done over the last decade that on this issue feelings run strong and deep, even deeper than the desire for office. The potential for real damage to the government is very high.

    In seeking to resolve this issue Cameron is doing one last service to the Conservative party that he has led so brilliantly and which he has restored so effectively from the dark days of Blair. Hopefully his successor, whoever that turns out to be, will not have the same problems.

    Replace Cameron with Blair , and Blair with Thatcher / Major. That is exactlt what the Blairites said. Of course, replace the Conservative with Labour.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Fantastic and congratulations by the way.

    My father got a first in history from the OU, largely after he retired. His father was killed in the war and he had to leave school at 16 to work to help the family. It gave him enormous pleasure, great company and new friends. I have plans to do a degree in something genuinely interesting when I get to retirement too.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    GeoffM said:

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Agreed. Saving and re-energising it was one of Margaret Thatcher's (many) great achivements.
    Quietly forgetting to mention that it was Harold Wilson's creation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Congratulations Sandy, and indeed the OU is a fantastic institution.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,241
    surbiton said:

    GeoffM said:

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Agreed. Saving and re-energising it was one of Margaret Thatcher's (many) great achivements.
    Quietly forgetting to mention that it was Harold Wilson's creation.
    And there was me trying to keep the politics out of it!
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Well done SR...I wish I had the time..so many great things to study out there..
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    isam said:

    Did anyone see Michael Portillo's great continental railway journeys on
    Friday? Austria to Slovenia and Trieste

    The array of blazer, shirt & trouser combos was a triumph... He even managed to carry off UKIP gold and purple which I believe is a first

    Far better than Portillo's blazer, we should listen to ex Tory Defence Secretary's views on the Trident.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Cameron has always shown a remarkable indifference to the wishes and interests of the far right of the party. From his comments about the membership of UKIP to gay marriage to the way that he has been so much more willing to support certain ministers more than others he has consistently made it plain that he doesn't much care what they think and when he is asked to address their concerns he largely finds them ridiculous.

    Antifrank is right that if there is ever going to be pay back for this insouciance then it is going to be over this issue and over the last 2 or 3 years of his Premiership. On one view a man coming to the end of his term may be more vulnerable but I think that this underestimates the extent to which the Cameron/Osborne project has changed the party.

    Unlike when he took over more than 10 years ago now the party is no longer dominated by people obsessed with the EU. More moderate, centralist voices have been promoted and nurtured and the more aggressively anti EU voices have been side lined. Any politician with any kind of aspirations for office will have noted that the choice is to get with the program or to be left bitter and ignored on the back benches.

    For the right wing, however, this is the totem, the last stand, the issue. And there is no doubt that despite all the work done over the last decade that on this issue feelings run strong and deep, even deeper than the desire for office. The potential for real damage to the government is very high.

    In seeking to resolve this issue Cameron is doing one last service to the Conservative party that he has led so brilliantly and which he has restored so effectively from the dark days of Blair. Hopefully his successor, whoever that turns out to be, will not have the same problems.

    Replace Cameron with Blair , and Blair with Thatcher / Major. That is exactlt what the Blairites said. Of course, replace the Conservative with Labour.

    Sure, nothing is forever in politics. It would be deeply boring if it were.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    surbiton said:

    GeoffM said:

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Agreed. Saving and re-energising it was one of Margaret Thatcher's (many) great achivements.
    Quietly forgetting to mention that it was Harold Wilson's creation.
    Was it? That'd make a good pub quiz question that nobody would know.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    OU Started in 1969..Wilsons era I believe ..
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,241
    Right, time to go and tuck in to a full Scottish breakfast - just like English breakfast, but with added haggis!
  • Wilson regarded it as his greatest achievement. Wilson's first govt much underrated incidentally. Long list of good stuff
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    SR..Try the Kedgeree..always very good in Scotland..
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    Did anyone see Michael Portillo's great continental railway journeys on
    Friday? Austria to Slovenia and Trieste

    The array of blazer, shirt & trouser combos was a triumph... He even managed to carry off UKIP gold and purple which I believe is a first

    He does a great job of showing how lovely Eastern Europe is - and how vast his collection of brightly colloured blazers and trousers are! He was once a nearly PM and now is a cabaret act.

    For those who missed him in Plovdiv:

    twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/657336599600992258?s=09
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    Why is Pakistan still batting? They have about 200 more runs than they need already.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    DavidL said:

    Why is Pakistan still batting? They have about 200 more runs than they need already.

    Assad Shafiq seems determined to get a hundred I think. The lead is 487 now, if they don't declare soon there's a small chance we could bat out a draw tomorrow.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,488

    Mr. Abroad, "It is hardly surprising that Peebietories demand the right to give, but not to take offence. Most of us demand the right to do what comes naturally to us, whether or not it involves drink, drugs and animals. "

    Morris Dancer: "Mr. Abroad, who has asked for the right to never be offended?"

    Mr. Abroad: "I didn't say that. I didn't imply that. And you know I didn't."

    In that case... you appear to be equating taking offence with just cause for something being forbidden. I don't mind if people are offended. I mind if they consider the sentence "I am offended" as an actual argument for someone else to be forbidden from saying something.

    Freedom of speech matters more than placating the terminally hyper-sensitive, the religious fundamentalist or the weak-kneed government.

    That was an excellent article from Roger Scruton. Mill's arguments in favour of free speech have to re-stated in every generation.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,974
    DavidL said:

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Fantastic and congratulations by the way.

    My father got a first in history from the OU, largely after he retired. His father was killed in the war and he had to leave school at 16 to work to help the family. It gave him enormous pleasure, great company and new friends. I have plans to do a degree in something genuinely interesting when I get to retirement too.
    My mother-in-law is studying fine art in Turkey. She left school at around 14 to work in the family shop and was not allowed to progress her education. In recent years she's got a degree, then a masters, and is now studying for a doctorate, A task made all the more difficult in the fact she's studying in English, which is not her native language.

    I'm the only one in my wife's family who doesn't have a degree (*), yet alone a masters! I'm the family's thicko.

    No, don't be surprised. ;)

    (*) Aside from the little 'un, that is. I think Mrs J wants him to have a degree by the time he's fifteen...
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    isam said:

    Did anyone see Michael Portillo's great continental railway journeys on
    Friday? Austria to Slovenia and Trieste

    The array of blazer, shirt & trouser combos was a triumph... He even managed to carry off UKIP gold and purple which I believe is a first

    He does a great job of showing how lovely Eastern Europe is - and how vast his collection of brightly colloured blazers and trousers are! He was once a nearly PM and now is a cabaret act.

    For those who missed him in Plovdiv:

    twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/657336599600992258?s=09
    Recently I notice he has been much feistier in arguments with guests on this week... Maybe his political juices are flowing again and he could lead the LEAVE campaign?
  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 356
    surbiton said:

    GeoffM said:

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Agreed. Saving and re-energising it was one of Margaret Thatcher's (many) great achivements.
    Quietly forgetting to mention that it was Harold Wilson's creation.
    Also of course, Lord Young, whose son Toby Young is following in his footsteps as an educational reformer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Why is Pakistan still batting? They have about 200 more runs than they need already.

    Assad Shafiq seems determined to get a hundred I think. The lead is 487 now, if they don't declare soon there's a small chance we could bat out a draw tomorrow.
    I would think another England collapse is pretty much nailed on but they are surely giving England a sniff of a chance here when they don't deserve it. If England had more than 2 batsmen worth the name this would be genuinely crazy. As it is, it is just showing how pathetic that first innings from England was.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    And they declare on the fall of Shafiq. Looks like you were right!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,149
    DavidL said:

    And they declare on the fall of Shafiq. Looks like you were right!

    Okay, I'm off to watch England lose. Not that I'm pessimistic or anything.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367

    DavidL said:

    I'm in Edinburgh this weekend - it was my OU graduation ceremony yesterday. The mix of people, all having the opportunity to gain a degree at different stages of their lives was great to see. The OU is a great institution.

    Fantastic and congratulations by the way.

    My father got a first in history from the OU, largely after he retired. His father was killed in the war and he had to leave school at 16 to work to help the family. It gave him enormous pleasure, great company and new friends. I have plans to do a degree in something genuinely interesting when I get to retirement too.
    My mother-in-law is studying fine art in Turkey. She left school at around 14 to work in the family shop and was not allowed to progress her education. In recent years she's got a degree, then a masters, and is now studying for a doctorate, A task made all the more difficult in the fact she's studying in English, which is not her native language.

    I'm the only one in my wife's family who doesn't have a degree (*), yet alone a masters! I'm the family's thicko.

    No, don't be surprised. ;)

    (*) Aside from the little 'un, that is. I think Mrs J wants him to have a degree by the time he's fifteen...
    I think you have been too busy getting an education to waste time getting a degree Josias. But having the chance to learn for the fun of it is a great gift whether in formal study or otherwise.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,367
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    And they declare on the fall of Shafiq. Looks like you were right!

    Okay, I'm off to watch England lose. Not that I'm pessimistic or anything.
    See you in a couple of hours.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Did anyone see Michael Portillo's great continental railway journeys on
    Friday? Austria to Slovenia and Trieste

    The array of blazer, shirt & trouser combos was a triumph... He even managed to carry off UKIP gold and purple which I believe is a first

    He does a great job of showing how lovely Eastern Europe is - and how vast his collection of brightly colloured blazers and trousers are! He was once a nearly PM and now is a cabaret act.

    For those who missed him in Plovdiv:

    twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/657336599600992258?s=09
    Recently I notice he has been much feistier in arguments with guests on this week... Maybe his political juices are flowing again and he could lead the LEAVE campaign?
    I think that he enjoys his media career too much. Travelling the railways of Europe discussing history or arguing with Nigel? Its an easy chice to make.

    Portillo has mellowed a great deal since his "Portillo moment" in 1997. Liz Kendall was looking and sounding good on This Week also.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,988

    malcolmg said:

    isam said:

    'He stood alone, close to the path of the Chinese leader’s procession. In each hand he held up a small placard (making a nonsense of excuses that he might have been hiding a weapon or a bomb). One said: ‘End autocracy.’ The other read: ‘Democracy now.’

    The man’s name is Shao Jiang. He witnessed the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in Peking’s Tiananmen Square in 1989 so he knows in detail what modern China is really like, as most of us don’t.

    Suddenly he was barged by a police officer in a crash helmet, quickly joined by two colleagues, who pushed him backwards at the double, as he feebly protested. I have watched the film at least 50 times and can see no justification for the level of force used. But I can explain it. It looks as if the police were ordered at all costs to ensure that China’s leader did not see or hear any protests.

    (Here, at just after 4 minutes 20 seconds (no whingeing, please, about the exact time), is film of what happened to Shao Jiang:

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid601325122001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAEabvr4~,Wtd2HT-p_Vh4qBcIZDrvZlvNCU8nxccG&bctid=4570666989001 )

    Two Tibetan women, who did no more than try to wave the flag of their stolen country, were also arrested.

    All three were held overnight, on suspicion of offences which expert lawyers think are quite absurd, and which look to me as if they were devised to keep them off the streets until the Chinese leader had gone home.

    They must wait until Christmas to find out if they will be prosecuted. Worse still, their homes were raided and searched, and some personal possessions removed, just as they would have been in Peking. This, for holding up a couple of placards and a flag? Where are we, exactly?

    It looks to me as if David Cameron and President Xi did indeed discuss freedom, law and civil rights in their private meetings. And that China’s despot persuaded Mr Cameron that the Chinese way of dealing with opposition was better than ours.'

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk

    They are well suited, the Tories do not like democracy , it is do as they say or they send in their state police goons.
    Rabid frothing at the mouth Nat says Tories BAD on pb shocker
    LOL, a return from the man who cannot remember his name howdy strangerfriend
  • JEO said:

    I see Tony Blair apologised for the intelligence they received being wrong. What a dishonest politician this man is. Alistair Campbell intensively pressured the intelligence agencies to come up with more stuff, and Tony Blair misrepresented their position in parliament by leaving out that the 45 minute claim only applied to the battlefield. In addition, when the legal advice they received wasn't to their liking, they sacked Sir Michael Woord, the chief legal advisor, causing the deputy to resign in protest. For his replacement, they hired a man who makes a living defending the Israelis' actions in Gaza, knowing he would provide the right legal advice.

    The worrying point is that Blair was deceiving himself as well as us. He knew he was right and that Saddam had WMD. That they'd not been found was evidence Saddam was obstructing the inspectors. After the war, the justification changed: Blair was not going to apologise for removing Saddam. Now it is that non-intervention in Syria has left that country in an even worse condition than Iraq.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 36,517
    A MEMBER of the SNP’s welfare team at Westminster has been accused of hypocrisy after taking a £3000 donation from a Tory hedge fund boss.

    Pensions spokesman Ian Blackford, who last week denounced “callous Tories” over welfare cuts, took the cash from millionaire Conservative donor David Craigen in March.

    The money helped bankroll Blackford’s winning general election fight against the late LibDem MP Charles Kennedy in Ross, Skye and Lochaber.

    Craigen’s was the biggest donation to Blackford’s campaign, one sixth of all his donations.
    http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13894423.SNP_welfare_spokesman_took___3000_donation_from_Tory_millionaire/
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited October 2015

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Did anyone see Michael Portillo's great continental railway journeys on
    Friday? Austria to Slovenia and Trieste

    The array of blazer, shirt & trouser combos was a triumph... He even managed to carry off UKIP gold and purple which I believe is a first

    He does a great job of showing how lovely Eastern Europe is - and how vast his collection of brightly colloured blazers and trousers are! He was once a nearly PM and now is a cabaret act.

    For those who missed him in Plovdiv:

    twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/657336599600992258?s=09
    Recently I notice he has been much feistier in arguments with guests on this week... Maybe his political juices are flowing again and he could lead the LEAVE campaign?
    I think that he enjoys his media career too much. Travelling the railways of Europe discussing history or arguing with Nigel? Its an easy chice to make.

    Portillo has mellowed a great deal since his "Portillo moment" in 1997. Liz Kendall was looking and sounding good on This Week also.
    The Great Vard marches on I see

    Had 2 bets 4folds and an Acca in the weekend football using a new system I'm working on

    Both teams to score NO / under 2.5
    Leicester
    Norwich
    Stoke
    Newcastle

    Both to score YES / over 2.5
    Liverpool

    All to play for!! Excited!!
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