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  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited October 2015
    GeoffM said:

    Oliver_PB said:


    In general, the right claim to be compassionate while refuses to do anything about it. I find it deeply cynical.

    And it also partially comes down my upbringing - my parents were hardline right-wingers. They worked all hours, badly neglected me (asserting "personal responsibility", boldly extending that principle to young children) and we lived in squalor while they endlessly gambled, drank and chainsmoked. This inevitably gives me a very, very cynical view of the right as the contradictions of their world view slowly added up, even growing up in a household that passionately hated the left. I've consequently steadily became more and more left-wing as I've become older.

    Proper hardline right wing parents would have sent you up chimneys or down the coal mines when you turned 8 and earn a wage.
    You think you're joking, but that's uncomfortably close to the truth. The stories I could tell...
    You had it easy, sunshine. We lived in a shoebox in the middle of the road until Thatcher sold it off.
    Well, we did have a house - and one with both indoor plumbing and carpets, which isn't something my Dad could say growing up!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,927
    edited October 2015
    RobD said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    I like the idea that it was a shortcut in a region full of anomalies :D
    "Watch your mouth, kid, or you'll find yourself floating home!" :)
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
  • GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    Just say it's 3.26 light years, dammit!
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    - and very anal-retentive, I suspect :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    Ah, I think he was making a Star Wars reference ;)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    Just say it's 3.26 light years, dammit!
    parsecs are so much more useful. If I know a star has a parallax of 0.1 arcseconds, I can quickly work out the distance in parsecs as 1/0.1 = 10pc (1/p [asec] = d [pc])
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RobD said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    Ah, I think he was making a Star Wars reference ;)
    I've no idea what the hell I was thinking - the word parsec just turned up in my mind and it sounded suitably astronomic or Dr Who-ish....appropriate for your comment
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    Just say it's 3.26 light years, dammit!
    That's true in an arbitrarily picked measurement system.

    However the definition is 360×60×60/2π AU
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    - and very anal-retentive, I suspect :)
    Have we met? It feels as though you know me surprisingly well.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Sorry to interrupt the astronomical festival, but this has happened:
    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ford-throws-uaw-trump-bone-shifts-work-mexico-ohio-n408521

    The gloating from Trump will now never end, he can say he hasn't even gotten the nomination much less the presidency and already has done something that no other president had.
    I'm now revising the odds that he gets the nomination to 65%, up 15 points from yesterday.

    Also if he becomes the nominee this will help him immensely in the industrial states in the GE.
    Goodnight.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    The real problem with Osborne cutting Tax credits is the assumption that people don't want to work. This is unfortunately incorrect. People work to not only put food on the table, heat their homes, raise children, but also to have a recognised place in society.

    Tax credits were introduced to support the lower paid to become members of society. Regrettably, many employers have abused the system to enforce low pay and encourage the employees to get the benefits from the state paid for by the tax payers.

    Where Osborne has erred is by attempting to change the system too fast. If the employee cannot live on the wages paid, then they will not be able to travel to their employment. The employer has to consider if raising wages, and the costs against charging higher prices is practical. In the short term it would not be. The company would have to go out of business, putting not just their own employees out of work, but, also 3 others in the supply chain at risk.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    - and very anal-retentive, I suspect :)
    Have we met? It feels as though you know me surprisingly well.
    I did spend some time visiting the Lowell Observatory, and have looked through the 24 inch refracting telescope, the original telescope (featured in Cosmos), and the 13 inch telescope with which Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto.

    A friend of my dad's was a close friend of Bernard Lovell, so as a kid I spent quite a while visiting Jodrell Bank.
  • OchEye the problem is not with the reforms but with the broken system in the first place. Tax Credits have been a cap on aspiration where working 16 hours and no more is the maximum that can be done or you risk losing your benefits. The system is a poverty trap that needs reform and the time to do it is now.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    GeoffM said:

    Oliver_PB said:


    In general, the right claim to be compassionate while refuses to do anything about it. I find it deeply cynical.

    And it also partially comes down my upbringing - my parents were hardline right-wingers. They worked all hours, badly neglected me (asserting "personal responsibility", boldly extending that principle to young children) and we lived in squalor while they endlessly gambled, drank and chainsmoked. This inevitably gives me a very, very cynical view of the right as the contradictions of their world view slowly added up, even growing up in a household that passionately hated the left. I've consequently steadily became more and more left-wing as I've become older.

    Proper hardline right wing parents would have sent you up chimneys or down the coal mines when you turned 8 and earn a wage.

    You had it easy, sunshine. We lived in a shoebox in the middle of the road until Thatcher sold it off.
    The road or the shoebox?

    Selling our family silver AND letting nasty people evict Geoff Shoebox as a bonus!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    OchEye said:

    The real problem with Osborne cutting Tax credits is the assumption that people don't want to work. This is unfortunately incorrect. People work to not only put food on the table, heat their homes, raise children, but also to have a recognised place in society.

    Tax credits were introduced to support the lower paid to become members of society. Regrettably, many employers have abused the system to enforce low pay and encourage the employees to get the benefits from the state paid for by the tax payers.

    Where Osborne has erred is by attempting to change the system too fast. If the employee cannot live on the wages paid, then they will not be able to travel to their employment. The employer has to consider if raising wages, and the costs against charging higher prices is practical. In the short term it would not be. The company would have to go out of business, putting not just their own employees out of work, but, also 3 others in the supply chain at risk.

    The cut in corporation tax is designed to counter-balance the increase in the minimum wage.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Oliver_PB said:


    In general, the right claim to be compassionate while refuses to do anything about it. I find it deeply cynical.

    And it also partially comes down my upbringing - my parents were hardline right-wingers. They worked all hours, badly neglected me (asserting "personal responsibility", boldly extending that principle to young children) and we lived in squalor while they endlessly gambled, drank and chainsmoked. This inevitably gives me a very, very cynical view of the right as the contradictions of their world view slowly added up, even growing up in a household that passionately hated the left. I've consequently steadily became more and more left-wing as I've become older.

    Proper hardline right wing parents would have sent you up chimneys or down the coal mines when you turned 8 and earn a wage.

    You had it easy, sunshine. We lived in a shoebox in the middle of the road until Thatcher sold it off.
    The road or the shoebox?

    Selling our family silver AND letting nasty people evict Geoff Shoebox as a bonus!
    Actually our family were posh because our shoebox was a Clarkes shoebox the neighbours only had. JD sport one.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Moses_ said:

    Charles said:

    GeoffM said:

    Oliver_PB said:


    In general, the right claim to be compassionate while refuses to do anything about it. I find it deeply cynical.

    And it also partially comes down my upbringing - my parents were hardline right-wingers. They worked all hours, badly neglected me (asserting "personal responsibility", boldly extending that principle to young children) and we lived in squalor while they endlessly gambled, drank and chainsmoked. This inevitably gives me a very, very cynical view of the right as the contradictions of their world view slowly added up, even growing up in a household that passionately hated the left. I've consequently steadily became more and more left-wing as I've become older.

    Proper hardline right wing parents would have sent you up chimneys or down the coal mines when you turned 8 and earn a wage.

    You had it easy, sunshine. We lived in a shoebox in the middle of the road until Thatcher sold it off.
    The road or the shoebox?

    Selling our family silver AND letting nasty people evict Geoff Shoebox as a bonus!
    Actually our family were posh because our shoebox was a Clarkes shoebox the neighbours only had. JD sport one.
    ooooh!

    Green and gold and curly writing and everything!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2015
    OchEye said:

    The real problem with Osborne cutting Tax credits is the assumption that people don't want to work. This is unfortunately incorrect. People work to not only put food on the table, heat their homes, raise children, but also to have a recognised place in society.

    Tax credits were introduced to support the lower paid to become members of society. Regrettably, many employers have abused the system to enforce low pay and encourage the employees to get the benefits from the state paid for by the tax payers.

    Where Osborne has erred is by attempting to change the system too fast. If the employee cannot live on the wages paid, then they will not be able to travel to their employment. The employer has to consider if raising wages, and the costs against charging higher prices is practical. In the short term it would not be. The company would have to go out of business, putting not just their own employees out of work, but, also 3 others in the supply chain at risk.

    You sound like a bit of a Calvanist with all this "people work to have a recognised place in society" stuff. I don't think people should necessarily be defined by the job they do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    Speedy said:

    Sorry to interrupt the astronomical festival, but this has happened:
    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ford-throws-uaw-trump-bone-shifts-work-mexico-ohio-n408521

    The gloating from Trump will now never end, he can say he hasn't even gotten the nomination much less the presidency and already has done something that no other president had.
    I'm now revising the odds that he gets the nomination to 65%, up 15 points from yesterday.

    Also if he becomes the nominee this will help him immensely in the industrial states in the GE.
    Goodnight.

    I expect the UAW will claim more of the credit and they will back Hillary
  • Had two Facebook adverts for the EU referendum come up in my all just now and the difference couldn't be plainer - and for a moderate In person more worrying.

    First was a Leave.EU one that was "Save the NHS" saying £12bn could pay for (dramatically large number) doctors and nurses. Bright picture, positive colours etc.
    Then there was a horrible Britain Stronger in Europe one with a purple background with a stupid and clearly fake Farage with his fingers in his ears. Looked like a pathetic mockery of UKIP for what purpose.

    One is appealing to a concern for the doctors and nurses and tried and tested Save the NHS (as if that line hasn't been done to death) while the other is just childish political obsessives nonsense.

    I thought the most embarrassing thing about the BSE campaign was going to be that they named themselves after Mad Cow Disease. But now they're conspiring to be so dreadful they're even making Leave.EU look positive in comparison.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2015
    Boris Johnson on David Willetts' view of the baby-boomers:

    "As David points out, they were perfectly happy to have loads of homes built for themselves – there were about 300,000 homes built every year during the Fifties and Sixties. Now they are pulling up the drawbridge, and organising themselves politically so that it is very difficult to get things moving on the scale required. Now we are building half that number – and at a time when the population is growing faster than ever, and when the demand is volcanic.
    How can these oldies be so influential? They are powerful not just because they are so numerous, but because they vote, vote, vote. Woe betide the political party that tries to erode their privileges. The Liberal Democrats used to talk about means-testing the bus pass. Look what happened to them."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11954113/Dont-bash-the-baby-boomers-they-have-left-us-fit-to-face-the-future.html
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    What happened ? I thought this was a supposedly Tory site (at least according to our left leaning friends) and yet this entire thread is full of incontinent emoting, financial illiteracy and virtuous hand-wringing!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Indigo said:

    What happened ? I thought this was a supposedly Tory site (at least according to our left leaning friends) and yet this entire thread is full of incontinent emoting, financial illiteracy and virtuous hand-wringing!

    PB Tories are too busy quaffing expensive wine in their weekend retreats in Monaco. :D
    Normal service will be returned when they return to work tomorrow ;)
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Indigo said:

    What happened ? I thought this was a supposedly Tory site (at least according to our left leaning friends) and yet this entire thread is full of incontinent emoting, financial illiteracy and virtuous hand-wringing!

    i see no contradiction here
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    What happened ? I thought this was a supposedly Tory site (at least according to our left leaning friends) and yet this entire thread is full of incontinent emoting, financial illiteracy and virtuous hand-wringing!

    i see no contradiction here
    I will grant you that under Cam its getting hard to tell the difference!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Morning all. Managed to clear the diary until lunch, so off to watch England's batting collapse. Not that I'm an optimist or anything!
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Anecdote alert.

    I'm working in Africa at the moment, and the EU happened to come up in conversation. I asked a room of people from all over Africa (plus a few Americans) what they would think in the UK if we left the EU. To a man, they all said they don't care. It makes me wonder if the "you'd lose prestige abroad" argument is all it's cracked up to be. The UK has status because it's the UK, not because it's an EU member.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,546
    JEO said:

    Anecdote alert.

    I'm working in Africa at the moment, and the EU happened to come up in conversation. I asked a room of people from all over Africa (plus a few Americans) what they would think in the UK if we left the EU. To a man, they all said they don't care. It makes me wonder if the "you'd lose prestige abroad" argument is all it's cracked up to be. The UK has status because it's the UK, not because it's an EU member.

    It's one of the odder arguments that some pro-EU people make. Perhaps an EU supporter can tell us what prestige the EU has?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Tories will concentrate on the lower and middle paid for the rest of this Parliament and at the same time move onto the socially acceptable centre ground vacated by Corbyn's labour party

    I doubt it - they are hammering the lower and middle paid. A signicant number of these are going to be £5000 to £10,000 worse off by 2020 - who the hell is going to vote Tory after that?
    How many and what independent evidence do you have for this claim
    My consituency 3,900 families will lose a total of £5 million...8,000 children will be growing up in poorer households...the knock on effects are going to be catastrophic
    How many hours left to save them?
    TWO MONTHS to save Christmas!!! :lol:
    How many hours left to save the Galactic Senate??
    Don't they measure time in parsecs?
    A parsec is a measure of distance, not time.

    It's the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond.

    I was (and remain) a frustrated wannabe-astronomer.
    - and very anal-retentive, I suspect :)
    Have we met? It feels as though you know me surprisingly well.
    I did spend some time visiting the Lowell Observatory, and have looked through the 24 inch refracting telescope, the original telescope (featured in Cosmos), and the 13 inch telescope with which Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto.

    A friend of my dad's was a close friend of Bernard Lovell, so as a kid I spent quite a while visiting Jodrell Bank.
    I was lucky enough to know Prof Arnold Wolfendale for a few years just before and during his time as Astronomer Royal and he was a great inspiration to me as a young lad. I certainly envy your use of those particular famous telescopes!
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all. Managed to clear the diary until lunch, so off to watch England's batting collapse. Not that I'm an optimist or anything!

    Got a long shopping expedition planned for between the collapse and lunch then?
    It's raining heavily in Gib today (and for most of the week, apparently). Shame we can't export it for a few hours...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2015

    JEO said:

    Anecdote alert.

    I'm working in Africa at the moment, and the EU happened to come up in conversation. I asked a room of people from all over Africa (plus a few Americans) what they would think in the UK if we left the EU. To a man, they all said they don't care. It makes me wonder if the "you'd lose prestige abroad" argument is all it's cracked up to be. The UK has status because it's the UK, not because it's an EU member.

    It's one of the odder arguments that some pro-EU people make. Perhaps an EU supporter can tell us what prestige the EU has?
    Problem is you get bullshit like this from pro-EU Two Jags
    Investment in Britain will only remain attractive to China if the nation stays in the EU, former deputy prime minister John Prescott has warned.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/15/britian-must-stay-in-eu-china-investment_n_5496488.html

    and yet the key players in China business actually don't care, ask Wang Jianlin, China's richest man.
    "I don't think it is a big problem for me whether the UK is in the EU or not. It is a problem between the UK and Europe. The UK is relatively independent in the EU at present. It does not use the euro."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31838296
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited October 2015
    Indigo said:

    JEO said:

    Anecdote alert.

    I'm working in Africa at the moment, and the EU happened to come up in conversation. I asked a room of people from all over Africa (plus a few Americans) what they would think in the UK if we left the EU. To a man, they all said they don't care. It makes me wonder if the "you'd lose prestige abroad" argument is all it's cracked up to be. The UK has status because it's the UK, not because it's an EU member.

    It's one of the odder arguments that some pro-EU people make. Perhaps an EU supporter can tell us what prestige the EU has?
    Problem is you get bullshit like this from pro-EU Two Jags
    Investment in Britain will only remain attractive to China if the nation stays in the EU, former deputy prime minister John Prescott has warned.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/15/britian-must-stay-in-eu-china-investment_n_5496488.html

    and yet the key players in China business actually don't care, ask Wang Jianlin, China's richest man.
    "I don't think it is a big problem for me whether the UK is in the EU or not. It is a problem between the UK and Europe. The UK is relatively independent in the EU at present. It does not use the euro."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31838296
    More to the point, a UK not in the EU could agree a free trade deal with China, which would make widgets cheaper while allowing us to sell expensive cars and high-value services to the Chinese
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The underlying theme of the header is only thickos vote ukip, it's patronising bordering on offensive. The reality is that as you get older and have experienced life you see things in a different way from the ideology of your teens.

    UKIP attracts realists who appreciate that not all change is for the best.

    UKIP attracts all sorts.

    For me, what makes it unattractive is not its Euroscepticism, but its social conservatism. UKIP used to be a libertarian party. Douglas Carswell is a libertarian, and were I in Clacton, I think I'd probably vote for him.

    But UKIP is the party that opposed gay marriage. And not because of any real ideological reason, but because they wanted to be the repository for those who dislike social change.

    And for that reason, while I might vote for them if I liked the local candidate (were it Douglas Carswell or Richard Tyndall), I could never support them.
    It's a real shame that social conservatism has become so associated with things like opposing gay marriage or contraception. There is a very positive side to social conservatism that focused on helping establish stable family units, community organisations and civic values.
    It's now become a bit of an insult. Even within the Conservative Party itself.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited October 2015
    Oh well. England Rooted out after 45 minutes!
    The draw on Betfair just went from 4 to 8 in a couple of minutes!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Sandpit said:

    Oh well. England Rooted out after 45 minutes!
    The draw on Betfair just went from 4 to 8 in a couple of minutes!

    Should have only taken an hour off work, rather than the whole morning? :D
  • JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The underlying theme of the header is only thickos vote ukip, it's patronising bordering on offensive. The reality is that as you get older and have experienced life you see things in a different way from the ideology of your teens.

    UKIP attracts realists who appreciate that not all change is for the best.

    UKIP attracts all sorts.

    For me, what makes it unattractive is not its Euroscepticism, but its social conservatism. UKIP used to be a libertarian party. Douglas Carswell is a libertarian, and were I in Clacton, I think I'd probably vote for him.

    But UKIP is the party that opposed gay marriage. And not because of any real ideological reason, but because they wanted to be the repository for those who dislike social change.

    And for that reason, while I might vote for them if I liked the local candidate (were it Douglas Carswell or Richard Tyndall), I could never support them.
    It's a real shame that social conservatism has become so associated with things like opposing gay marriage or contraception. There is a very positive side to social conservatism that focused on helping establish stable family units, community organisations and civic values.
    It's now become a bit of an insult. Even within the Conservative Party itself.
    It may or may not be a shame, but politics are always driven by negative emotions (fear, anger, jealousy) rather than reason.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited October 2015
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh well. England Rooted out after 45 minutes!
    The draw on Betfair just went from 4 to 8 in a couple of minutes!

    Should have only taken an hour off work, rather than the whole morning? :D
    I think you might be right. Bairstow gone now too. Eng 300 on BF now, 15 for the draw!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Speedy said:

    A last note on the polish elections, based on the opinion polls the cameronian PO was coasting towards victory until they endorsed the Merkel immigration plan, that cost them 15 points on the opinion polls:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliamentary_election,_2015#/media/File:Model_sondaży.png

    I think this result is somewhat good news for the UK. The new Polish government should be a bit friendlier.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Matt Hancock good on R4 just now. He is learning quickly - very good defence of tax credits cuts.

    I do, however, wish that Tory ministers would continue to emphasis the cap on aspiration that tax credits represent. Has the double benefit of being true and play well in the marginals (albeit mostly amongst those who are not on tax credits).
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