"Human instinct. We always wish to put off that inevitable visit to the dentist to deal with the niggly tooth. Perhaps another aspirin will do the trick, mouthwash yeah that will stop the pain..... It does, briefly but then it's back and it's worse. Extraction or root canal the only long term answer.
On reflection a Labour split is realistically now inevitable. The two sides could never now meet and agree. "
As Dylan Thomas said "Oh, isn't life a terrible thing, thank God?”
Yeah...I wait to see the United Tory party the day after the referendum. Peace will surely break out and no one will talk about leaving the EU for generations !
@PaulFlynnMP: BBC repeated Tory distortion of Corbyn's shoot to kill comment, turned it into an abusrdity & attacked their own creation. Bias multiplied
@DPJHodges: .@PaulFlynnMP Agreed. It's a disgrace the way the BBC keep filming Jeremy Corbyn and putting his comments on air for people to see.
Both are right. In the sense "shoot to kill" has a special meaning, which is shoot suspects who could otherwise be arrested, as is often alleged to have happened in Northern Ireland or, say, on the tube, Corbyn is right.
In the sense that only a politician with a tin ear would realise this was not the time, and that the public would interpret this literally as meaning no terrorists should ever be shot, even while firing their own guns into crowded bars and concerts, Hodges is right that Corbyn is a total muppet.
Sadly, I carefully re-read Corbyn's actual statement and also listened to a few clips. In fact, it was not that far away or indeed exactly what the current law states.
It is how and when he says it.
You need to have a political antenna. All his political life he didn't need to as his supporters heard what they wanted to. To others he was a far flung loony. Rather unfair but that was how he was treated.
On bombing, I am still not convinced what it will actually achieve. Is it only about Britain's face ? Surely the number of bombs and missile strikes today compared to two months ago far exceeds what Britain would do. It will be tokenistic so that Britain does not look smaller than France when France - Britain summit takes.
Clearly Britain has a self-esteem problem.
Do you think Merkel gives a shit that she does not have these toys ? Britain still hankers after being a world power 70 years after giving up the Empire and not realising that it is a small island on the edge of Europe.
From that it seems that it's not Britain who has a self-esteem problem: it's you.
Er,,,why ? I don't want to bomb anyone unless I am actually attacked. To say that Daesh is an existential threat is a lie. It simply demeans all the sacrifices our men and women suffered when hundreds of thousands died. Those were an existential fight. In fact, the cold war was an existential fight even though not single missile was fired in anger. ...
Yes I agree with you that the cold war was an existential fight. Unfortunately at the time key socialists such as the Union Leader Jack Jones were batting for the soviets.
Vicki Price served her eight-month sentence: If Al-Beeb wish to employ here I see no conflict (time spent et.al.). A bad choice in incredulous bed-companions is the major fault; added to which was her loyalty the the specious-turd.*
* Other Lib-Dhimmies may also apply. Please check the small-print.
Thats funny ..I thought we had been attacked..London..Glasgow etc and threats of more to come..plus ISIS are attacking our allies and near neighbours..but hey lets wait until blood runs in the gutters of some UK city..then we can wring our hands a tad more and wail.."why did the Government do nowt about it"..
Labour acted in haste for very logical reasons. They were stunned by the election result which they correctly ascribed to a feeble leadership. They were offered more of the same which any fool could see would have made no difference. So they made the logical decision which was to go for the only radical alternative.
It's failed. At the moment there will be plenty of pissed off Labour supporters-leaderless and directionless-watching Osborne dumping on them from a great height. I can't picture a scenario at the moment other than street protests in the summer and something turning up
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Um. Outside of Kipperdom Robert is about as far from an ardent EU fan as it is possible to get. The only point on which I have seen he he disagrees with most Outers is the question of free movement.
Do not confuse Robert with his Dad. They are very different beasts when it comes to politics from what I have seen on here.
In order to protect the children on here - :waves-@-wodger - well said!
Am just playing back the Andrew Marr show and it starts with a real leftie love-in on the paper review. All 4! Stan Greenburg the Labour pollster. Paul Waugh the politics editor of the leftie leaning Huffington Post. Stephanie Flanders ex BBC and someone with very close friendships with several Labour politicians. Andrew Marr married to Labour supporting hack.
Am just playing back the Andrew Marr show and it starts with a real leftie love in in the paper review. All 4! Stan Greenburg the Labour pollster. Paul Waugh the politics editor of the leftie leaning Huffington Post. Stephanie Flanders ex BBC and someone with very close friendships with several Labour politicians. Andrew Marr married to Labour supporting hack.
Um. Outside of Kipperdom Robert is about as far from an ardent EU fan as it is possible to get. The only point on which I have seen he he disagrees with most Outers is the question of free movement.
Do not confuse Robert with his Dad. They are very different beasts when it comes to politics from what I have seen on here.
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Correct. What will the bombing actually achieve except telling them "look we can bomb the hell out of you too !"
Will it stop Daesh bombing us ? Look across the channel for evidence.
Russian plane , Hezbollah Beirut, Paris........ Are these coincidences ?
@PaulFlynnMP: BBC repeated Tory distortion of Corbyn's shoot to kill comment, turned it into an abusrdity & attacked their own creation. Bias multiplied
@DPJHodges: .@PaulFlynnMP Agreed. It's a disgrace the way the BBC keep filming Jeremy Corbyn and putting his comments on air for people to see.
Both are right. In the sense "shoot to kill" has a special meaning, which is shoot suspects who could otherwise be arrested, as is often alleged to have happened in Northern Ireland or, say, on the tube, Corbyn is right.
In the sense that only a politician with a tin ear would realise this was not the time, and that the public would interpret this literally as meaning no terrorists should ever be shot, even while firing their own guns into crowded bars and concerts, Hodges is right that Corbyn is a total muppet.
Sadly, I carefully re-read Corbyn's actual statement and also listened to a few clips. In fact, it was not that far away or indeed exactly what the current law states.
It is how and when he says it.
You need to have a political antenna. All his political life he didn't need to as his supporters heard what they wanted to. To others he was a far flung loony. Rather unfair but that was how he was treated.
On bombing, I am still not convinced what it will actually achieve. Is it only about Britain's face ? Surely the number of bombs and missile strikes today compared to two months ago far exceeds what Britain would do. It will be tokenistic so that Britain does not look smaller than France when France - Britain summit takes.
Clearly Britain has a self-esteem problem.
Do you think Merkel gives a shit that she does not have these toys ? Britain still hankers after being a world power 70 years after giving up the Empire and not realising that it is a small island on the edge of Europe.
Britain isn't hankering over being a world power. Britain IS a world power.
We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military, which is not disproportionate as we are the fifth largest nation by GDP. You may wish us to be small and introverted but that is not the reality.
"And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time."
I think you're right. If they want to remove the Assad government no bombing makes sense.
But that isn't the problem with the Corbyn leadership. His party needs to be united behind him which they never will be. Choosing a leader at odds with his parliamentary party could never work.
Too many of us stuck our heads in the sand and hoped for the best. I remember when Major was being humiliated by his 'bastards'. This is well beyond that
@michaelsavage: Angela Eagle has just made pretty clear case for backing airstrikes. She is Corbyn's first shadow secretary of state & key figure. #pienaar
@PaulFlynnMP: BBC repeated Tory distortion of Corbyn's shoot to kill comment, turned it into an abusrdity & attacked their own creation. Bias multiplied
@DPJHodges: .@PaulFlynnMP Agreed. It's a disgrace the way the BBC keep filming Jeremy Corbyn and putting his comments on air for people to see.
right that Corbyn is a total muppet.
Sadly, I carefully re-read Corbyn's actual statement and also listened to a few clips. In fact, it was not that far away or indeed exactly what the current law states.
It is how and when he says it.
Clearly Britain has a self-esteem problem.
Do you think Merkel gives a shit that she does not have these toys ? Britain still hankers after being a world power 70 years after giving up the Empire and not realising that it is a small island on the edge of Europe.
From that it seems that it's not Britain who has a self-esteem problem: it's you.
Er,,,why ? I don't want to bomb anyone unless I am actually attacked. To say that Daesh is an existential threat is a lie. It simply demeans all the sacrifices our men and women suffered when hundreds of thousands died. Those were an existential fight. In fact, the cold war was an existential fight even though not single missile was fired in anger.
Will us bombing them first stop them ? You don't need to look too far. Hollande wanted to act like Bonaparte to increase his poll ratings. He has been at them for more than a year. What has it stopped ?
Well said Surbiton, it is stupid warmongers like JJ and others on here who have inferiority complexes, desperate to bomb innocent people or have someone else go and get killed to make them fell that Britain is still a world power. You would think after recent drubbings they would see reality, but sounds good from the armchair.
@politicshome: Angela Eagle asked if John McDonnell suited to highest office: "McDonnell is our Shadow Chancellor, he’s been doing an extremely good job."
@michaelsavage: Angela Eagle asked by @JPonpolitics if Corbyn/McDonnell suited to high office: "I work with the people the party gives me to work with."
Thats funny ..I thought we had been attacked..London..Glasgow etc and threats of more to come..plus ISIS are attacking our allies and near neighbours..but hey lets wait until blood runs in the gutters of some UK city..then we can wring our hands a tad more and wail.."why did the Government do nowt about it"..
You forgot Germany there , how far back do you go to justify the unjustifiable, the crusades.
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Correct. What will the bombing actually achieve except telling them "look we can bomb the hell out of you too !"
Will it stop Daesh bombing us ? Look across the channel for evidence.
Russian plane , Hezbollah Beirut, Paris........ Are these coincidences ?
UK involvement in this sounds unwise on the merits, but on the politics I'd expect the likely reaction (ISIS bomb Britain) to strengthen support for the original action (Britain bombs ISIS).
@PaulFlynnMP: BBC repeated Tory distortion of Corbyn's shoot to kill comment, turned it into an abusrdity & attacked their own creation. Bias multiplied
@DPJHodges: .@PaulFlynnMP Agreed. It's a disgrace the way the BBC keep filming Jeremy Corbyn and putting his comments on air for people to see.
Both are right. In the sense "shoot to kill" has a special meaning, which is shoot suspects who could otherwise be arrested, as is often alleged to have happened in Northern Ireland or, say, on the tube, Corbyn is right.
In the sense that only a politician with a tin ear would realise this was not the time, and that the public would interpret this literally as meaning no terrorists should ever be shot, even while firing their own guns into crowded bars and concerts, Hodges is right that Corbyn is a total muppet.
Sadly, I carefully re-read Corbyn's actual statement and also listened to a few clips. In fact, it was not that far away or indeed exactly what the current law states.
It is how and when he says it.
You need to have a political antenna. All his political life he didn't need to as his supporters heard what they wanted to. To others he was a far flung loony. Rather unfair but that was how he was treated.
On bombing, I am still not convinced what it will actually achieve. Is it only about Britain's face ? Surely the number of bombs and missile strikes today compared to two months ago far exceeds what Britain would do. It will be tokenistic so that Britain does not look smaller than France when France - Britain summit takes.
Clearly Britain has a self-esteem problem.
Do you think Merkel gives a shit that she does not have these toys ? Britain still hankers after being a world power 70 years after giving up the Empire and not realising that it is a small island on the edge of Europe.
Britain isn't hankering over being a world power. Britain IS a world power.
We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military, which is not disproportionate as we are the fifth largest nation by GDP. You may wish us to be small and introverted but that is not the reality.
Yes and we got beat by a few tribesmen in Afghanistan, bailed out by US and finally got out with our tail between our legs. Real world power.
Thats funny ..I thought we had been attacked..London..Glasgow etc and threats of more to come..plus ISIS are attacking our allies and near neighbours..but hey lets wait until blood runs in the gutters of some UK city..then we can wring our hands a tad more and wail.."why did the Government do nowt about it"..
You forgot Germany there , how far back do you go to justify the unjustifiable, the crusades.
Daesh are going back to the crusades to justify their unjustifiable actions, yes.
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
Before I go: Is not "Daesh" the derogiatory word for "ISIL/ISIS/IS" that Arab dictates and 'family-affairs' monarchs use? God help us that the SNP (and US-Democrats) seem at-home with such terminology.
:laughing-at-birmingham-city-fc;-0-1-to-CAFC:
PS: What ever happened to the humble comma? A nice, simple but useful means of parsing a cogent sentence...?
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
@PaulFlynnMP: BBC repeated Tory distortion of Corbyn's shoot to kill comment, turned it into an abusrdity & attacked their own creation. Bias multiplied
@DPJHodges: .@PaulFlynnMP Agreed. It's a disgrace the way the BBC keep filming Jeremy Corbyn and putting his comments on air for people to see.
Both are right. In the sense "shoot to kill" has a special meaning, which is shoot suspects who could otherwise be arrested, as is often alleged to have happened in Northern Ireland or, say, on the tube, Corbyn is right.
In the sense that only a politician with a tin ear would realise this was not the time, and that the public would interpret this literally as meaning no terrorists should ever be shot, even while firing their own guns into crowded bars and concerts, Hodges is right that Corbyn is a total muppet.
Sadly, I carefully re-read Corbyn's actual statement and also listened to a few clips. In fact, it was not that far away or indeed exactly what the current law states.
It is how and when he says it.
You need to have a political antenna. All his political life he didn't need to as his supporters heard what they wanted to. To others he was a far flung loony. Rather unfair but that was how he was treated.
On bombing, I am still not convinced what it will actually achieve. Is it only about Britain's face ? Surely the number of bombs and missile strikes today compared to two months ago far exceeds what Britain would do. It will be tokenistic so that Britain does not look smaller than France when France - Britain summit takes.
Clearly Britain has a self-esteem problem.
Do you think Merkel gives a shit that she does not have these toys ? Britain still hankers after being a world power 70 years after giving up the Empire and not realising that it is a small island on the edge of Europe.
Britain isn't hankering over being a world power. Britain IS a world power.
We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military, which is not disproportionate as we are the fifth largest nation by GDP. You may wish us to be small and introverted but that is not the reality.
Yes and we got beat by a few tribesmen in Afghanistan, bailed out by US and finally got out with our tail between our legs. Real world power.
No we didn't. Are the Taliban still in government in Afghanistan? Do Al Qaeda still have safe harbour? Is Bin Laden still alive? Has 9/11 been repeated?
The situation isn't perfect by any means but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a better one thanks to our actions in Afghanistan too. Just as we live in a better one for taking on the Nazis and will have a better one after taking on IS. Not perfect but better.
Before I go: Is not "Daesh" the derogitory word for "ISIL/ISIS/IS" that Arab dictates and 'family-affairs' monarchs use? God help us that the SNP (and US-Democrats) seem at-home with such terminology.
:laughing-at-birmingham-city-fc;-0-1-to-CAFC:
Derogatory, yes. The French use it, as do many British Muslims.
I'm disappointed in you all. I give you a thread that mentions
"With the quasi-AV voting system the Tory party currently uses to select their leader, you can see a Stop-X candidate doing very well in the forthcoming Tory leadership contest."
And no one has discussed that part of the thread.
Yes. Who is going to be the stop Osborne candidate?
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Hhmmm :
Translation - A Nick Palmer speciality.
1. "serious electoral difficulties .." - Oldham is up for grabs. 2. "having an ear for when people have doubts .." - PLP slanging match. 3. "nuances .." - Defence policy shambles. 4. "speaking for myself .." - BroxtoweTories4NickP unconvinced. 5. "entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies .." - We're absolutely f*cked. 6. "lack of personal aggression." - Send for enforcer Tom Watson. 7. "plunging into the Syrian war .." - See number 3
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
Baa Baa said the UK lets follow
Not really, more like, "You mess with my friend, you mess with me". I'm not saying I'm convinced, but there's an argument to make. The key factor being: Would more countries joining the bombing be something that would actually serve to deter ISIS (and future organizations in the same position)? Or is their aim actually to broaden this conflict and make it Us vs Former Colonial Powers And Their Offshoots, in which case this would be playing into their hands?
No we didn't. Are the Taliban still in government in Afghanistan? Do Al Qaeda still have safe harbour? Is Bin Laden still alive? Has 9/11 been repeated?
The situation isn't perfect by any means but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a better one thanks to our actions in Afghanistan too. Just as we live in a better one for taking on the Nazis and will have a better one after taking on IS. Not perfect but better.
What was our contribution to Afghanistan? The joke at the time was that we bought American cruise missiles at $1 million apiece and fired them at US-chosen targets at US-dictated times, so we'd save a lot of money if the Americans cut out the middle-man.
The political reason was to stand by the United States, of course, but militarily?
If you do something daft like ask the voters who should be the leader of XYZ Party, of course they're going to give a daft answer like Michael Heseltine.
All the reports I read say that without air strikes those fighting ISIS on the ground would be in serious trouble.
The kurds are always stressing the key role that air power plays.
Its awful for those civilians caught in the crossfire in Iraq and Syria, but I guess that would be the case whatever solution we chose to get rid of ISIS.
A bit more detail is emerging about the terrorist threat which led the Belgian authorities to effectively impose a curfrew in Brussels and shut the city down.
According to Le Soir the police are hunting for at least two terrorists and that other terror cells are poised to act. One of the men who is being hunted by the police could be a suicide bomber, the paper reports.
Wow! The Belgian Interior Minister wants Molenbeek to be searched house to house!
This has killed Schengen. When the very heart of the EU is on lock down, streets cleared and borders closed it really is all over. It will take a very brave politician or leader to go back to how it once was without being monstered for putting its citizens at risk. Given Schengen is one of the corner stones then we really are on a sea change that potentially may make our referendum irrelevant after all. Never underestimate the EU unelected's stupidity though not to make the attempt.
They are even thinking of keeping schools closed tomorrow.
I can't imagine they will go house to house, but to even say it.........
I'm disappointed in you all. I give you a thread that mentions
"With the quasi-AV voting system the Tory party currently uses to select their leader, you can see a Stop-X candidate doing very well in the forthcoming Tory leadership contest."
And no one has discussed that part of the thread.
Yes. Who is going to be the stop Osborne candidate?
Osborne will be on the shortlist, if he stands, he has been working the room for sometime and should get plenty of nominations.
Who would stand against him? May may, but I think she would lose when it goes to the membership.
I think Paterson is the new IDS to defeat the annointed one. No love lost for the Cameroons there, and the sort of fellow who goes down well with the selectorate.
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
Bayesian Game Theory be damned. Going to war when you don't know what the outcome you seek is and therefore how your are going to achieve it is just culpable stupidity. The good Dr Sox asks very sensible questions. Questions that I hope Cameron is asking of himself and his ministers and generals.
Perhaps he is, we should know on Thursday as I read that is when he will announce his "comprehensive strategy to defeat ISIS" (or whatever you want to call them). On recent form I am not convinced that either the politicians nor the MoD are have the intellectual capacity to actually think through a proposed course of action.
MG Having been at the hot end of artillery ,mortar and heavy calibre machine gun fire..mainly from our Syrian friends..I have no desire to put anyone else in that position...however..when the bad lads come kicking down ones door then one must retaliate or hide behind the effin couch clutching your new copy of the Koran..
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
MG Having been at the hot end of artillery ,mortar and heavy calibre machine gun fire..mainly from our Syrian friends..I have no desire to put anyone else in that position...however..when the bad lads come kicking down ones door then one must retaliate or hide behind the effin couch clutching your new copy of the Koran..
The Daesh that we need to be careful of are not the ones in Syria, they are the ones here. The Paris bombers like the ones here were homegrown. That is where victory needs to be won. Let the Russians and French bomb Raqqa back to the stone age if they choose.
We need to win this war in schools, universities, mosques and madrassas. Much more difficult than the flyboys getting their pointy nosed jets out.
@PaulFlynnMP: BBC repeated Tory distortion of Corbyn's shoot to kill comment, turned it into an abusrdity & attacked their own creation. Bias multiplied
@DPJHodges: .@PaulFlynnMP Agreed. It's a disgrace the way the BBC keep filming Jeremy Corbyn and putting his comments on air for people to see.
Both are right. In the sense "shoot to kill" has a special meaning, which is shoot suspects who could otherwise be arrested, as is often alleged to have happened in Northern Ireland or, say, on the tube, Corbyn is right.
In the sense that only a politician with a tin ear would realise this was not the time, and that the public would interpret this literally as meaning no terrorists should ever be shot, even while firing their own guns into crowded bars and concerts, Hodges is right that Corbyn is a total muppet.
Sadly, I carefully re-read Corbyn's actual statement and also listened to a few clips. In fact, it was not that far away or indeed exactly what the current law states.
It is how and when he says it.
You need to have a political antenna. All his political life he didn't need to as his supporters heard what they wanted to. To others he was a far flung loony. Rather unfair but that was how he was treated.
On bombing, I am still not convinced what it will actually achieve. Is it only about Britain's face ? Surely the number of bombs and missile strikes today compared to two months ago far exceeds what Britain would do. It will be tokenistic so that Britain does not look smaller than France when France - Britain summit takes.
Clearly Britain has a self-esteem problem.
Do you think Merkel gives a shit that she does not have these toys ? Britain still hankers after being a world power 70 years after giving up the Empire and not realising that it is a small island on the edge of Europe.
small and introverted but that is not the reality.
Yes and we got beat by a few tribesmen in Afghanistan, bailed out by US and finally got out with our tail between our legs. Real world power.
No we didn't. Are the Taliban still in government in Afghanistan? Do Al Qaeda still have safe harbour? Is Bin Laden still alive? Has 9/11 been repeated?
The situation isn't perfect by any means but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a better one thanks to our actions in Afghanistan too. Just as we live in a better one for taking on the Nazis and will have a better one after taking on IS. Not perfect but better.
We made a bad situation much worse, achieved nothing other than spending billions and getting people killed, all for nothing.
Mr. Observer, you don't believe the PLP will attempt to either axe Corbyn or form a break-away party that's leftwing without being demented?
FPTP means there is no chance a new party will succeed, at least for many years. MP action needs to be prompted by something concrete. That probably means meltdown across the board in next year's elections. But it will also require the non-hard left Labour Corbynistas - his useful idiots - finally realising what a catastrophe he and his mates are. Again, relentless humiliation in real elections will probably be required.
As ever, the key to this will be the unions. Unlike most £3ers they have plenty to lose if the Tories stay in power. At some stage they will realise this and the pressure they can put JC and his mates under will be significant and very hard to dismiss.
You might find it helpful to keep a watching eye on how Nick Palmer is twisting in the wind. I suspect that will be an effective indicator.
I would suggest that perhaps Nick has got the party he always wanted.
Unfortunately for him and Jezza most of the public can see right through them.
I'm disappointed in you all. I give you a thread that mentions
"With the quasi-AV voting system the Tory party currently uses to select their leader, you can see a Stop-X candidate doing very well in the forthcoming Tory leadership contest."
And no one has discussed that part of the thread.
Yes. Who is going to be the stop Osborne candidate?
Osborne will be on the shortlist, if he stands, he has been working the room for sometime and should get plenty of nominations.
He gets on the starting list but not easily the shortlist of 2. MPs do not regard him as a Leader who will guarantee them their seat after the GE.
.... We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military...
I do get cross when people measure military capability by inputs. We may be the fifth highest spender (though I think that is open to debate, particularly after Osborne's recent accounting tricks), but we do not have the fifth largest or most capable forces. Japan for example spends, on paper, a bit less than us but maintains armed forces both larger and more capable than our own.
Actually, on voting intention Alan Clark mentions in his diaries on 22nd November 1990 a Mori poll that showed John Major had drawn level with Michael Heseltine on voting intention if either were leading the Tory Party and in one case the Tories actually did slightly better under Major than Heseltine. In Major's biography on p198 he also mentions a poll in the Independent showing he was the candidate most likely to attract voters back into the Tory fold. So once Thatcher went the Tories did follow the polling and John Major did become PM!
MG Having been at the hot end of artillery ,mortar and heavy calibre machine gun fire..mainly from our Syrian friends..I have no desire to put anyone else in that position...however..when the bad lads come kicking down ones door then one must retaliate or hide behind the effin couch clutching your new copy of the Koran..
richard , it is pointless, bombing will achieve nothing and just make more hate us. It will kill mostly innocent civilians and only increase our chances of being attacked. It is a stupid idea by stupid politicians.
MG Having been at the hot end of artillery ,mortar and heavy calibre machine gun fire..mainly from our Syrian friends..I have no desire to put anyone else in that position...however..when the bad lads come kicking down ones door then one must retaliate or hide behind the effin couch clutching your new copy of the Koran..
The Daesh that we need to be careful of are not the ones in Syria, they are the ones here. The Paris bombers like the ones here were homegrown. That is where victory needs to be won. Let the Russians and French bomb Raqqa back to the stone age if they choose.
We need to win this war in schools, universities, mosques and madrassas. Much more difficult than the flyboys getting their pointy nosed jets out.
Correct. Absolutely correct. Also cut foreign funding of our mosques [ indeed any religious establishment ]. Throughout history, churches, synagogues, mosques, temples were constructed and run through local sponsorship. Why can't it be today ?
I hope you did notice I did not single out Saudi Arabia by name !
Corbyn wants a negotiated settlement with ISIS..He cant even manage that within his own party
I would love to hear how he thinks you can negotiate with them.
He doesn't. He thinks it should be possible to negotiate a settlement between Assad and the non-ISIS rebels, at which point there will be a generally-recognised Syriasn government to support, and military action to help them against ISIS would be an option. But just dropping more bombs on its own won't achieve very much even in Syria, let alone with terrorists in Europe, though I do take EiT's point about solidarity.
Labour acted in haste for very logical reasons. They were stunned by the election result which they correctly ascribed to a feeble leadership. They were offered more of the same which any fool could see would have made no difference. So they made the logical decision which was to go for the only radical alternative.
It's failed. At the moment there will be plenty of pissed off Labour supporters-leaderless and directionless-watching Osborne dumping on them from a great height. I can't picture a scenario at the moment other than street protests in the summer and something turning up
Ah the good old left.
We can't get the public to accept our views, so lets riot.
Actually, on voting intention Alan Clark mentions in his diaries on 22nd November 1990 a Mori poll that showed John Major had drawn level with Michael Heseltine on voting intention if either were leading the Tory Party and in one case the Tories actually did slightly better under Major than Heseltine, so once Thatcher went the Tories did follow the polling and John Major did become PM!
Major won by being the compromise candidate between the wet and dry elements of the party. A compromise that broke down completely under his government nevertheless.
I could see Hammond in such a role. Most of the others are too divisive.
All the reports I read say that without air strikes those fighting ISIS on the ground would be in serious trouble.
The kurds are always stressing the key role that air power plays.
Its awful for those civilians caught in the crossfire in Iraq and Syria, but I guess that would be the case whatever solution we chose to get rid of ISIS.
Oh yes ! 130 here. 1300 there. It is just a number. This would not, of course, exacerbate the arms race of mutual hatred !!!!!!!!!!!
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
Bayesian Game Theory be damned. Going to war when you don't know what the outcome you seek is and therefore how your are going to achieve it is just culpable stupidity. The good Dr Sox asks very sensible questions. Questions that I hope Cameron is asking of himself and his ministers and generals.
Perhaps he is, we should know on Thursday as I read that is when he will announce his "comprehensive strategy to defeat ISIS" (or whatever you want to call them). On recent form I am not convinced that either the politicians nor the MoD are have the intellectual capacity to actually think through a proposed course of action.
Hurst, it will be on the back of a fag packet, Cameron just wants to revisit to get over his anger at being stopped last time. The man is a policy vacuum
Lord's Prayer cinema ad ban 'bewilders' Church of England
It's not bonkers, really. This advert may be fairly anodyne, but other religous adverts might not be, and a blanket "no religion or politics" avoids the really nasty arguments.
There's a world of difference between carpet bombing and sharply targeted strikes like the one that took out Emwasi.
Also, remember the neutron bomb? It takes out people but leaves buildings unscathed – would have been just the thing when the nutjobs were busy in Palmyra. (But I don't think that technology was developed.)
The forces people that I have talked with are wary about Britain's involvement in Syria, because they know that it will be a half arsed affair, with one hand tied behind their back, and no real plan for the aftermath. Also, as my fellow Fox points out down thread, there will be no defeat of IS without defeating it in the UK. No UK government of any stripe will be brave enough to take the very tough, discriminatory measures that would be needed to make Britain unappealing to radical Islamism. So basically, we're fecked!
Corbyn wants a negotiated settlement with ISIS..He cant even manage that within his own party
I would love to hear how he thinks you can negotiate with them.
He doesn't. He thinks it should be possible to negotiate a settlement between Assad and the non-ISIS rebels, at which point there will be a generally-recognised Syriasn government to support, and military action to help them against ISIS would be an option. But just dropping more bombs on its own won't achieve very much even in Syria, let alone with terrorists in Europe, though I do take EiT's point about solidarity.
Nick, that is correct. However, he uses the wrong words. Why isn't he more explicit with his words as you have been. It has an entirely different meaning.
Corbyn is a very poor politician. Many like him because of that but his PR is awful. Maybe it is our comeuppance for having a charlatan like Bliar.
Corbyn wants a negotiated settlement with ISIS..He cant even manage that within his own party
I would love to hear how he thinks you can negotiate with them.
What like we did with the IRA , he at least is trying to think of ways to handle it , unlike the blinkered neoliberal warmongers, who have only one thought.
Actually, on voting intention Alan Clark mentions in his diaries on 22nd November 1990 a Mori poll that showed John Major had drawn level with Michael Heseltine on voting intention if either were leading the Tory Party and in one case the Tories actually did slightly better under Major than Heseltine, so once Thatcher went the Tories did follow the polling and John Major did become PM!
Major won by being the compromise candidate between the wet and dry elements of the party. A compromise that broke down completely under his government nevertheless.
I could see Hammond in such a role. Most of the others are too divisive.
Hammond is the ultimate new-Major.
I don't want to become like HYUFD, but I've been tipping Hammond for about a year.
Once Osborne is knocked out of the MPs ballot, his support would swing behind Hammond as the continuity-of-sense candidate.
Met him last year - seemed a thoroughly decent chap, works well on the doorstep. Would be good on a soapbox, too. Not that it looks like 2020 will be anything like as tricky as '92.
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Hhmmm :
Translation - A Nick Palmer speciality.
1. "serious electoral difficulties .." - Oldham is up for grabs. 2. "having an ear for when people have doubts .." - PLP slanging match. 3. "nuances .." - Defence policy shambles. 4. "speaking for myself .." - BroxtoweTories4NickP unconvinced. 5. "entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies .." - We're absolutely f*cked. 6. "lack of personal aggression." - Send for enforcer Tom Watson. 7. "plunging into the Syrian war .." - See number 3
MG What are you going to do when they come tramping over the boggy wastelands of Ayrshire..looking for new heads to saw off..invite them in for a cuppa .. These monsters respect nothing..and see hesitation as weakness and fear that must be exploited..and exploit it they surely will...
Summary: UKIP are outrageous value and it looks like a toss-up.
it initially reads as a UKIP press release, but the writer is fairly vigorous in his defence. He has got a lot of abuse by PM on the site. He says he is a labour canvasser. If he as a labour canvasser is getting UKIP majority tallying in certain wards, Labour are genuinely in trouble. Their majority was so high that they could still easily win it by a few thousand. But we have seen some truly staggering by election results from the likes of the SNP recently and lib dems in deep past.
Corbyn wants a negotiated settlement with ISIS..He cant even manage that within his own party
I would love to hear how he thinks you can negotiate with them.
He doesn't. He thinks it should be possible to negotiate a settlement between Assad and the non-ISIS rebels, at which point there will be a generally-recognised Syriasn government to support, and military action to help them against ISIS would be an option. But just dropping more bombs on its own won't achieve very much even in Syria, let alone with terrorists in Europe, though I do take EiT's point about solidarity.
He's really awful at explaining himself if that is his view. Given the confusion and hostility arises from his actual words and not just the reporting of hostile media of those words, I'm surprises someone who's communication abilities and lack of spin were praised during his campaign for the leadership (the latter idea is nonsense, of course, Corbyn spins just as other people spin, he just does so in a different style, but as a speaker he did seem clear and convincing when he spoke) has such difficulties on the issue.
Actually, on voting intention Alan Clark mentions in his diaries on 22nd November 1990 a Mori poll that showed John Major had drawn level with Michael Heseltine on voting intention if either were leading the Tory Party and in one case the Tories actually did slightly better under Major than Heseltine, so once Thatcher went the Tories did follow the polling and John Major did become PM!
Major won by being the compromise candidate between the wet and dry elements of the party. A compromise that broke down completely under his government nevertheless.
I could see Hammond in such a role. Most of the others are too divisive.
Indeed but most of the wets are now gone, the battle is now more between Cameroon 'modernisers' and anti EU 'traditionalists'
MG Having been at the hot end of artillery ,mortar and heavy calibre machine gun fire..mainly from our Syrian friends..I have no desire to put anyone else in that position...however..when the bad lads come kicking down ones door then one must retaliate or hide behind the effin couch clutching your new copy of the Koran..
The Daesh that we need to be careful of are not the ones in Syria, they are the ones here. The Paris bombers like the ones here were homegrown. That is where victory needs to be won. Let the Russians and French bomb Raqqa back to the stone age if they choose.
We need to win this war in schools, universities, mosques and madrassas. Much more difficult than the flyboys getting their pointy nosed jets out.
Fox, I agree totally , stop pussyfooting about here and for sure do not be fooled by politicians who want to take the easy option for photo opportunities.
Summary: UKIP are outrageous value and it looks like a toss-up.
It would appear that the UKIP attack leaflet is quite effective. Still not sure if the poster on Reddit is genuine though as they stated that there were 11 wards when in fact there were 9. Could be an innocent mistake, who knows.
.... We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military...
I do get cross when people measure military capability by inputs. We may be the fifth highest spender (though I think that is open to debate, particularly after Osborne's recent accounting tricks), but we do not have the fifth largest or most capable forces. Japan for example spends, on paper, a bit less than us but maintains armed forces both larger and more capable than our own.
Soon we will have four large dick carriers and nothing else. We will attack terrorist with trident missiles. Watch out Bradford, Birmingham, London !
My Yes / Destiny badge has arrived , did you miss that one Scott, something else to get you all bitter and twisted about. I can hardly wait for all that pressure on Sturgeon you promised yesterday. I can wave my badge at your pal rodent and laugh my socks off.
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Bombing Syria looks like the response of a hammer owner, to whom evey problem looks like a nail.
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
I think I generally agree with this but the Bayesian Game Theory isn't straightforward. There's an argument for the UK joining in bombing ISIS because France was attacked, and asked the UK to help respond.
Bayesian Game Theory be damned. Going to war when you don't know what the outcome you seek is and therefore how your are going to achieve it is just culpable stupidity. The good Dr Sox asks very sensible questions. Questions that I hope Cameron is asking of himself and his ministers and generals.
Perhaps he is, we should know on Thursday as I read that is when he will announce his "comprehensive strategy to defeat ISIS" (or whatever you want to call them). On recent form I am not convinced that either the politicians nor the MoD are have the intellectual capacity to actually think through a proposed course of action.
Hurst, it will be on the back of a fag packet, Cameron just wants to revisit to get over his anger at being stopped last time. The man is a policy vacuum
Morning, Mr. G., I stand second to no man in my contempt for Cameron and his nasty little sidekick Osborne (political reincarnates of Blair and Brown both), but on this morning's news that CAmeron is to announce a strategy for Syria on Thursday, I shall suspend judgement on that matter until then.
As an aside, might I suggest that in your criticism of the UK's performance in Afghanistan you split criticism of the politics and strategy from the actions of the people on the ground, or at least make it clear which you are criticising.
There's a world of difference between carpet bombing and sharply targeted strikes like the one that took out Emwasi.
Also, remember the neutron bomb? It takes out people but leaves buildings unscathed – would have been just the thing when the nutjobs were busy in Palmyra. (But I don't think that technology was developed.)
Or the ones on hospitals and weddings etc etc , estimates are that more than 90% of people killed are innocent civilians. Accurate my arse.
I would love to know what explanation they have for this. Especially as one of the men arrested in known to police. Deeply worrying as all six are British.
Six Pakistani born British men were arrested in Belgium yesterday after being spotted in three 'old ambulances' at a petrol station used by a Paris terror suspect, it was reported.
AfD in Germany and Wilders in Holland seemingly off the boil though still well up on the last elections. Surprisingly little change in France either way. Ireland still a big swing to Sinn Fein and anti-austerity, but looks like Fine Gael+? for the next government:
Actually, on voting intention Alan Clark mentions in his diaries on 22nd November 1990 a Mori poll that showed John Major had drawn level with Michael Heseltine on voting intention if either were leading the Tory Party and in one case the Tories actually did slightly better under Major than Heseltine, so once Thatcher went the Tories did follow the polling and John Major did become PM!
Major won by being the compromise candidate between the wet and dry elements of the party. A compromise that broke down completely under his government nevertheless.
I could see Hammond in such a role. Most of the others are too divisive.
Indeed but most of the wets are now gone, the battle is now more between Cameroon 'modernisers' and anti EU 'traditionalists'
The move is from an economic division to a social/EU based division, but the answer remains the same. The compromise candidate has to be acceptable to both sides. Hammond is my bet. Like Major he has risen in a similar way.
.... We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military...
I do get cross when people measure military capability by inputs. We may be the fifth highest spender (though I think that is open to debate, particularly after Osborne's recent accounting tricks), but we do not have the fifth largest or most capable forces. Japan for example spends, on paper, a bit less than us but maintains armed forces both larger and more capable than our own.
Soon we will have four large dick carriers and nothing else. We will attack terrorist with trident missiles. Watch out Bradford, Birmingham, London !
Can't say I have seen NPEXMP doing any twisting, in fact he said he voted for Corbyn because he wanted left wing policies to be promoted in a positive way !!! and that was what JC was doing.!!!! NP finally has the leader he dreamed of.
That's right. It's as simple as that. Obviously there are serious electoral difficulties, and I take the point about having an ear for when people want to hear doubts and nuances and when they want to be firmly reassured, but speaking for myself I'm entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies and his lack of personal aggression. And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time.
Correct. What will the bombing actually achieve except telling them "look we can bomb the hell out of you too !"
Will it stop Daesh bombing us ? Look across the channel for evidence.
Russian plane , Hezbollah Beirut, Paris........ Are these coincidences ?
And because of who leads Labour no-one is going to listen to those arguments. Just like no-one is going to listen to arguments against Osborne's economic policy. Just like no-one is going to take much notice of Tory splits over the EU. Labour members have disqualified Labour from being taken seriously because they have chosen a leadership regime that has at its centre people who have consistently snuggled up to apologists for terrorism and blamed the West when its citizens are murdered by terrorists.
I am afraid it is boring to repeat it, but it is the only thing that matters in British politics currently. We have a party of government and no credible opposition. At a time when if there were a credible opposition it would get a very good hearing and would be able to ask searching questions of the government that could not be ignored. As it is UK politics is becoming like Scottish politics. Labour's fault in both instances.
I feel faint ..Caroline Flint actually talking sense at last..saying she would back Cameron and military action against ISIS in Syria,,,,Does Jeremy know..or is he still down the pub with his buddies singing the red flag ditty
MG What are you going to do when they come tramping over the boggy wastelands of Ayrshire..looking for new heads to saw off..invite them in for a cuppa .. These monsters respect nothing..and see hesitation as weakness and fear that must be exploited..and exploit it they surely will...
Richard , if they are in this country then it is a different kettle of fish. As we see the majority of the perpetrators are home grown. They should be sorting it out here, anyone known to go to Syria without good reason should be barred from returning to the UK, any known halfwits booted out and no mercy on any that start trouble in the UK. Bombing Syria and creating more martyrs here is not the answer. Get tough in the UK, stop the liberal wishy washy stuff and get back to it being the UK , not some foreign melting pot where we cannot upset people who hate us. Anybody not happy with our laws , way of life , etc should be booted out pdq.
There's a world of difference between carpet bombing and sharply targeted strikes like the one that took out Emwasi.
Also, remember the neutron bomb? It takes out people but leaves buildings unscathed – would have been just the thing when the nutjobs were busy in Palmyra. (But I don't think that technology was developed.)
Or the ones on hospitals and weddings etc etc , estimates are that more than 90% of people killed are innocent civilians. Accurate my arse.
The accuracy of the intelligence is the issue there.
The 4th crusade was one of my pet topics at Uni. Got really fed up of the nineteenth-century tin-foil-hatters who made out the intended target was Byzantium all along. There is a wonderful pseudo-archaeological article (I can't remember the author, for shame) that examines intention through the design and construction of ships, which were clearly designed to land on the beaches of Egypt. One of those moments in tutorials where you were really relieved to have read the last item on the reading list.
I feel faint ..Caroline Flint actually talking sense at last..saying she would back Cameron and military action against ISIS in Syria,,,,Does Jeremy know..or is he still down the pub with his buddies singing the red flag ditty
She made it clear, more or less, earlier. Labour Party members will not like this.
Remember, there will be automatic reselections thanks to Cameron changing the number of constituencies to 600. 650 is not even the highest of all time. We have had more MPs before.
Comments
* Other Lib-Dhimmies may also apply. Please check the small-print.
"There are not many Corbyn labour supporters"
Labour acted in haste for very logical reasons. They were stunned by the election result which they correctly ascribed to a feeble leadership. They were offered more of the same which any fool could see would have made no difference. So they made the logical decision which was to go for the only radical alternative.
It's failed. At the moment there will be plenty of pissed off Labour supporters-leaderless and directionless-watching Osborne dumping on them from a great height. I can't picture a scenario at the moment other than street protests in the summer and something turning up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q-k-uN73Gk
Stan Greenburg the Labour pollster.
Paul Waugh the politics editor of the leftie leaning Huffington Post.
Stephanie Flanders ex BBC and someone with very close friendships with several Labour politicians.
Andrew Marr married to Labour supporting hack.
https://t.co/uehknU5zo9 https://t.co/EoRHJ5EuXB
Does he mean Ed, "don't piss about with votes on National Security" ?
Will it stop Daesh bombing us ? Look across the channel for evidence.
Russian plane , Hezbollah Beirut, Paris........ Are these coincidences ?
We spend the fifth highest amount globally on the military, which is not disproportionate as we are the fifth largest nation by GDP. You may wish us to be small and introverted but that is not the reality.
"And I'm not sure that the current enthusiasm on most sides for plunging into the Syrian war will stand the test of time."
I think you're right. If they want to remove the Assad government no bombing makes sense.
But that isn't the problem with the Corbyn leadership. His party needs to be united behind him which they never will be. Choosing a leader at odds with his parliamentary party could never work.
Too many of us stuck our heads in the sand and hoped for the best. I remember when Major was being humiliated by his 'bastards'. This is well beyond that
@newsundayherald: Don't forget to get up early and claim your free Yestiny badge. Get it from your newsagent while stocks last! https://t.co/jm6JeQ5lTw
The Zoomers are getting Yesperate. Fortunately, their saner neighbours saved them for Yestitution...
It's Yefinitely hilarious.
@michaelsavage: Angela Eagle asked by @JPonpolitics if Corbyn/McDonnell suited to high office: "I work with the people the party gives me to work with."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERH0i71o2H4
I have to travel: Work-and-such. Enjoy the next week (for I will be back).
There are plenty of others bombing Syria. What we going to add?
What are we trying to achieve? What does victory look like? And what is the plan for afters? This is where the last foreign entanglements in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya went wrong. How is this one different?
iatory word for "ISIL/ISIS/IS" that Arab dictates and 'family-affairs' monarchs use? God help us that the SNP (and US-Democrats) seem at-home with such terminology.:laughing-at-birmingham-city-fc;-0-1-to-CAFC:
PS: What ever happened to the humble comma? A nice, simple but useful means of parsing a cogent sentence...?
The situation isn't perfect by any means but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a better one thanks to our actions in Afghanistan too. Just as we live in a better one for taking on the Nazis and will have a better one after taking on IS. Not perfect but better.
Translation - A Nick Palmer speciality.
1. "serious electoral difficulties .." - Oldham is up for grabs.
2. "having an ear for when people have doubts .." - PLP slanging match.
3. "nuances .." - Defence policy shambles.
4. "speaking for myself .." - BroxtoweTories4NickP unconvinced.
5. "entirely happy with Corbyn's stated policies .." - We're absolutely f*cked.
6. "lack of personal aggression." - Send for enforcer Tom Watson.
7. "plunging into the Syrian war .." - See number 3
The political reason was to stand by the United States, of course, but militarily?
Ohh.
The kurds are always stressing the key role that air power plays.
Its awful for those civilians caught in the crossfire in Iraq and Syria, but I guess that would be the case whatever solution we chose to get rid of ISIS.
They are even thinking of keeping schools closed tomorrow.
I can't imagine they will go house to house, but to even say it.........
Who would stand against him? May may, but I think she would lose when it goes to the membership.
I think Paterson is the new IDS to defeat the annointed one. No love lost for the Cameroons there, and the sort of fellow who goes down well with the selectorate.
Perhaps he is, we should know on Thursday as I read that is when he will announce his "comprehensive strategy to defeat ISIS" (or whatever you want to call them). On recent form I am not convinced that either the politicians nor the MoD are have the intellectual capacity to actually think through a proposed course of action.
Some would complain whatever action or lack of action we took. It by default has to be wrong.
The people taking on ISIS house to house, street to street are the kurds,
I bet the Kurds want us to start bombing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/3tq7wi/observations_from_campaigning_in_oldham/
Summary: UKIP are outrageous value and it looks like a toss-up.
We need to win this war in schools, universities, mosques and madrassas. Much more difficult than the flyboys getting their pointy nosed jets out.
Unfortunately for him and Jezza most of the public can see right through them.
I hope you did notice I did not single out Saudi Arabia by name !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/12009813/Paris-attacks-made-me-doubt-presence-of-God-admits-Archbishop-of-Canterbury.html
We can't get the public to accept our views, so lets riot.
I could see Hammond in such a role. Most of the others are too divisive.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34891928
Lord's Prayer cinema ad ban 'bewilders' Church of England
There's a world of difference between carpet bombing and sharply targeted strikes like the one that took out Emwasi.
Also, remember the neutron bomb? It takes out people but leaves buildings unscathed – would have been just the thing when the nutjobs were busy in Palmyra. (But I don't think that technology was developed.)
Also, as my fellow Fox points out down thread, there will be no defeat of IS without defeating it in the UK. No UK government of any stripe will be brave enough to take the very tough, discriminatory measures that would be needed to make Britain unappealing to radical Islamism.
So basically, we're fecked!
Corbyn is a very poor politician. Many like him because of that but his PR is awful. Maybe it is our comeuppance for having a charlatan like Bliar.
I don't want to become like HYUFD, but I've been tipping Hammond for about a year.
Once Osborne is knocked out of the MPs ballot, his support would swing behind Hammond as the continuity-of-sense candidate.
Met him last year - seemed a thoroughly decent chap, works well on the doorstep. Would be good on a soapbox, too. Not that it looks like 2020 will be anything like as tricky as '92.
The risk of angering some people who already want to murder us ought not be a factor when considering action.
As an aside, might I suggest that in your criticism of the UK's performance in Afghanistan you split criticism of the politics and strategy from the actions of the people on the ground, or at least make it clear which you are criticising.
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-fourth-crusade.html
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Dutch_general_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Irish_general_election
I am afraid it is boring to repeat it, but it is the only thing that matters in British politics currently. We have a party of government and no credible opposition. At a time when if there were a credible opposition it would get a very good hearing and would be able to ask searching questions of the government that could not be ignored. As it is UK politics is becoming like Scottish politics. Labour's fault in both instances.
The 4th crusade was one of my pet topics at Uni. Got really fed up of the nineteenth-century tin-foil-hatters who made out the intended target was Byzantium all along. There is a wonderful pseudo-archaeological article (I can't remember the author, for shame) that examines intention through the design and construction of ships, which were clearly designed to land on the beaches of Egypt. One of those moments in tutorials where you were really relieved to have read the last item on the reading list.
Remember, there will be automatic reselections thanks to Cameron changing the number of constituencies to 600. 650 is not even the highest of all time. We have had more MPs before.