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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The diminishing options of the average Labour MP

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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Moses_ said:

    Famous Belgians won't be Hercule Poirot for much longer at this rate.

    Omnium said:

    0_o Belgium?!

    As Britain's Davis Cup team delay their trip to Belgium, the Foreign Office has updated its guidance for travelling to the country.

    It is now advising visitors not to go to places in the country with large numbers of people. Here are the full details
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/12010302/Brussels-Belgium-terror-alert-on-Sunday-as-Paris-manhunt-goes-on-live.html#update-20151122-1536
    World's gone mad!

    It was interesting yesterday that they wanted to do house to house surveys. I'd not mind that at all if they came knocking. National ID cards seem a good idea now in retrospect too.

    I seem to recollect that TInTIn was good at sorting this sort of stuff out. How times change.

    Tin Tin was quite useless on his own. To succeed he needed Captain Haddock, the Thompson Twins and, of course, Snowy. Some Belgian geek in plus fours was never good enough, he needed Brits around him to survive.
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    Australia
    The Financial Review quotes the IMF (Sept 15)
    ''The Abbott government's budget repair is at risk of floundering because of over-inflated revenue and spending expectations, says a damning assessment by the International Monetary Fund that calls for a broader GST, ending the capital gains tax discount and curbs to high-end superannuation concessions.
    Delivering a warning that the Reserve Bank of Australia might need to deliver more interest rate cuts, a team of the Washington-based fund's officials visiting the country said Australians faced significantly weaker income growth than they have been used to over the past two decades.
    James Daniel, the IMF's mission chief to Australia, said economic growth was likely to remain at about a new normal of just 2.5 per cent over the longer term, falling well short of the forecasts outlined in the May budget for growth of about 3.5 per cent.''

    The IMF have been known to be wrong of course...
    I happily admit I know nothing of these matters, but there it is as an official and presumably expertly informed opinion. I leave it to others to digest.
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    HYUFD there is an alternative anyway. A former Home Secretary (like Howard) who could be a unity candidate still serves as an MP ... Alan Johnson
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Charismatic?
    Neither was Howard, they need an experienced unity candidate first
    Experienced?

    Howard had served as a Secretary of State of one of the great offices of state. Which great office of state has Benn been Secretary for in government?
    Hilary Benn Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural affairs and International Development, he is also Shadow Foreign Secretary as Howard was Shadow Chancellor, there is no alternative!
    Neither DEFRA nor International Development are great offices of state comparable to Home Secretary. The comparison is very weak.
    Your comparison is utterly irrelevant, Benn, like Howard, is the only Shadow Cabinet Minister who was also a Cabinet Minister and is in one of the 3 main Shadow Ministerial roles ie Shadow Home Sec, Shadow Foreign Sec or Shadow Chancellor and who also has some appeal to the 'soft left' as Howard had appeal to the 'soft right', whether he was Home Secretary or Agriculture Secretary is irrelevant, he is the only potential unity candidate on offer!
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    Mr. Llama, never seen Tintin, but Captain Haddock sounds like a likelier hero.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,932
    edited November 2015
    surbiton said:

    Re Benn - as I indicated before, if the main markets move too fast, then backing Benn (current at 15-17) would be value if the wheels of a coup are in force against Corbyn. that hasn't happened yet obviously!
    Benn does not have too many enemies !

    He is boring and insincere though , which may be a bonus in Labour.
    PS: does anyone know what he stands for other than himself
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?


    Been mulling this over. Assume that Benn would not have been electable to the party in September, as too left-wing. If he now gets anointed by Labour MPs as some sort of saviour from the horrors of Corbyn - might not Corbyn think that was a pretty good outcome? A left-leaning Leader installed - with the party machinery now stacked in favour of the Left - that would be a decent legacy from his own personal political perspective, wouldn't it? A whole lot better outcome than any of Burnham/Cooper/Kendall...
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    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    It will certainly be a watershed moment. If he fails to carry the PLP on such a vote then he could carry no other and as you say the Stalking horse would most likely appear. If The PLP fails to have the cojones to resist the three line whip theN Corby could as good as do what he likes and would not be removed.

    The ironic thing is that either way he will have a de facto civil war behind the scenes and spend more time looking at people behind him than in front. Not good for Labour either way really. All their own fault as well.
    I wonder what odds you'd get on the Syria vote being (say) two days before the Oldham by-election?
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    Cheers Mr Meeks – although I’m hard pushed to decide which group the Zombies represent.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Have you seen iZombie? Most entertainingly light and funny

    David Anders is brilliant as ever. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3501584/?ref_=nv_sr_1

    Cheers Mr Meeks – although I’m hard pushed to decide which group the Zombies represent.

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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited November 2015

    Australia
    The Financial Review quotes the IMF (Sept 15)
    ''The Abbott government's budget repair is at risk of floundering because of over-inflated revenue and spending expectations, says a damning assessment by the International Monetary Fund that calls for a broader GST, ending the capital gains tax discount and curbs to high-end superannuation concessions.
    Delivering a warning that the Reserve Bank of Australia might need to deliver more interest rate cuts, a team of the Washington-based fund's officials visiting the country said Australians faced significantly weaker income growth than they have been used to over the past two decades.
    James Daniel, the IMF's mission chief to Australia, said economic growth was likely to remain at about a new normal of just 2.5 per cent over the longer term, falling well short of the forecasts outlined in the May budget for growth of about 3.5 per cent.''

    The IMF have been known to be wrong of course...
    I happily admit I know nothing of these matters, but there it is as an official and presumably expertly informed opinion. I leave it to others to digest.

    My experience is that experts are every bit as bad at economic forecasts as non-experts.

    I do not think that either the IMF or the OECD has a particularly stellar forecasting record. And there are many who strongly criticize their economic prescriptions for countries - from all sides. Certainly nothing they declare should be taken as Gospel.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    I thought @surbiton was a Corbynista - is that wrong?

    surbiton said:

    Re Benn - as I indicated before, if the main markets move too fast, then backing Benn (current at 15-17) would be value if the wheels of a coup are in force against Corbyn. that hasn't happened yet obviously!

    Benn does not have too many enemies !
    Legions of Corbynistas are making Benn voodoo dollies as we speak....
    Maybe he sees Benn as Labour's lifeboat? Should we ask him?

    2017 might be the Year of the Hil(l)ary's
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Cheers Mr Meeks – although I’m hard pushed to decide which group the Zombies represent.

    I'd have thought they sided with the baby-eaters myself...

    That said, the LibDems are currently a zombie party.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2015
    Best light-hearted Zombie film I've seen in ages - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1588173/

    Have you seen iZombie? Most entertainingly light and funny

    David Anders is brilliant as ever. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3501584/?ref_=nv_sr_1

    Cheers Mr Meeks – although I’m hard pushed to decide which group the Zombies represent.

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    Miss Plato, there's also a book called I, Zombie (perhaps more than one).
    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/review-i-zombie-by-jo-michaels.html
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    I think Corbyn still gets at least two years
    in prison?
    Unless HRH does him for treason!
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    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I do have a postscript to this. The membership are not in general card-carrying trots. They're simply looking for inspiration. Jeremy Corbyn was their best option for inspiration in the summer. They are quite capable of being won over by a more centrist prospectus that convincingly shows not just electability but also that the world can be changed for the better.

    Rather than worrying about whether the leader needs 35 nominations or not, the more pertinent question is: What is the electorate for the next leadership contest ? Is it just the membership or membership + £3 Tories ?

    That will decide who will win.
    Surely the process for electing a leader has not altered in the last few months, and is unlikely to shift towards anything that would advantage the centre with Corbyn in charge. In fact, as it says above, quite the opposite.

    Centrist MPs are in more danger politically than Corbyn, at least at the moment.
    Not quite. Are the £3 Tories now a constitutional part of the election procedure or was it just a decision of the NEC only for the election just concluded ?

    I do not think a membership only election would necessarily return the same final result. Even last time, 49% voted for Corbyn. This could easily be 45% or lower next time. I don't think Corbyn would get too many votes in Round 2,3 ...
    The £3 Tories are irrelevant. ISTR (although might be wrong) that the majority of non-Labour people taking advantage of the £3 deal were Greens and SWP types. I think there were some figures floating around during the campaign.

    And you miss the point: Corbyn is rapidly capturing the capability to change the rules. Given this, he is more likely to change them towards rules that advantage his type of thinking than away from it. Besides, as he advantaged from it, you cannot blame him for keeping it.

    Expect the next leadership election, if it is more than six months away, to have rules that further advantage the left.
    An astute observation. There is a word BTW we don't hear applied to too many socialists ... 'astute'.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD there is an alternative anyway. A former Home Secretary (like Howard) who could be a unity candidate still serves as an MP ... Alan Johnson

    Johnson is too moderate for Labour and its membership in its present form, he is also not in the Shadow Cabinet
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?


    Been mulling this over. Assume that Benn would not have been electable to the party in September, as too left-wing. If he now gets anointed by Labour MPs as some sort of saviour from the horrors of Corbyn - might not Corbyn think that was a pretty good outcome? A left-leaning Leader installed - with the party machinery now stacked in favour of the Left - that would be a decent legacy from his own personal political perspective, wouldn't it? A whole lot better outcome than any of Burnham/Cooper/Kendall...
    Agreed, much as Michael Howard for IDS supporters was a lot better than Clarke or Portillo
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    TudorRose said:

    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    It will certainly be a watershed moment. If he fails to carry the PLP on such a vote then he could carry no other and as you say the Stalking horse would most likely appear. If The PLP fails to have the cojones to resist the three line whip theN Corby could as good as do what he likes and would not be removed.

    The ironic thing is that either way he will have a de facto civil war behind the scenes and spend more time looking at people behind him than in front. Not good for Labour either way really. All their own fault as well.
    I wonder what odds you'd get on the Syria vote being (say) two days before the Oldham by-election?
    Ha yes ...That would be interesting but may play into UKIPs hands as Tories haven't a hope here. I think the Tories may well wish to keep corbyn there for just a little while longer yet and let nature take its course.

    A labour leader is for life you know...... not just until Christmas. :lol:
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    Miss Plato, trailer looks good.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    HYUFD there is an alternative anyway. A former Home Secretary (like Howard) who could be a unity candidate still serves as an MP ... Alan Johnson

    Posties turned it down at least twice. Even bailed from the SCOTE. Position. (Though I think he should get some credit for that but won't.)

    Frying pan/ fire candidate.
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    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good piece, Mr. Meeks. It did get me wondering: if Corbyn can ignore the PLP to shift power to the membership, can't the PLP ignore Corbyn and shift power to a Shadow Leader?

    Suppose Cooper, for argument's sake, gets spoken of by 100 plus Labour MPs as a good leader. And they take their voting cues in Parliament from her. Labour, de facto, becomes a diarchy rather than a monarchy.

    Well, it would certainly be one way (and an interesting one at that) to run a government.

    I am not sure that Corbyn and his followers are very much interested in any dichotomy between him/them and the PLP.
    The PLP know they would be wasting their breath talking to the wider membership.
    As people probably know, I am not into betting - but what are the odds of a significant breakaway of MPs and the activists that do support them? My own speculation is that Corbyn is going nowhere and that the damage is already done - he and SimpleMac are well on their way to taking over Labour.
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    Mr. Flightpath, worked alright for the Spartans and Romans.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T curse new thread etc. Might save you money for more betting though.......

    Just driven southbound down the M5 and stopped at services just north of Junction 12. Had Sunday lunch which was superb. The place is not set like a normal service station and has been buried into a hill. Clean tidy and fairly new I think as I do t remember noticing it before as we always stopped at MIchael woods further south.

    We all winge about services on motorways but I can Highly recommend if you are passing on M5 ( southbound only) . They appear to have others around the country as well and if they all like this then you will not be disappointed.

    Edit - prices are also very competitive and not like normal service stations that charge the earth.

    http://www.gloucesterservices.com.

    I stopped by here on my way to North Devon, the food was very pleasent to eat by the pond/lake? outside. It made a very pleasent start to our holiday.
    Yes I know it. The equivalent North on the M6 is in Cumbria. Tebay. You get a farm shop as well.
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    Mr. Flightpath, worked alright for the Spartans and Romans.

    For how long - I seem to recall that the Romans had emperors. Spartan might well describe all our existence after 5 years of Corbynism.
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    Mr. Flightpath, I think the figure I read was that Sparta's Lycurgan constitution lasted for 800 years.

    Rome had a diarchical approach during the Republic (two consuls), which lasted about 500 years.
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    TudorRose said:

    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    It will certainly be a watershed moment. If he fails to carry the PLP on such a vote then he could carry no other and as you say the Stalking horse would most likely appear. If The PLP fails to have the cojones to resist the three line whip theN Corby could as good as do what he likes and would not be removed.

    The ironic thing is that either way he will have a de facto civil war behind the scenes and spend more time looking at people behind him than in front. Not good for Labour either way really. All their own fault as well.
    I wonder what odds you'd get on the Syria vote being (say) two days before the Oldham by-election?
    I spy a free vote coming along. Albert from Altrincham has already suggested it apparently.

    Meantime what is the SNP position today?
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    It will certainly be a watershed moment. If he fails to carry the PLP on such a vote then he could carry no other and as you say the Stalking horse would most likely appear. If The PLP fails to have the cojones to resist the three line whip theN Corby could as good as do what he likes and would not be removed.

    The ironic thing is that either way he will have a de facto civil war behind the scenes and spend more time looking at people behind him than in front. Not good for Labour either way really. All their own fault as well.
    I wonder what odds you'd get on the Syria vote being (say) two days before the Oldham by-election?
    Ha yes ...That would be interesting but may play into UKIPs hands as Tories haven't a hope here. I think the Tories may well wish to keep corbyn there for just a little while longer yet and let nature take its course.

    A labour leader is for life you know...... not just until Christmas. :lol:
    A UKIP victory in UW&R is a far worse outcome for the tories, than a labour hold.
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    If Margaret Thatcher was in power now, ISIS would already be just a big pile of ashes!
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    MTimT said:

    Australia
    The Financial Review quotes the IMF (Sept 15)
    ''The Abbott government's budget repair is at risk of floundering because of over-inflated revenue and spending expectations, says a damning assessment by the International Monetary Fund that calls for a broader GST, ending the capital gains tax discount and curbs to high-end superannuation concessions.
    Delivering a warning that the Reserve Bank of Australia might need to deliver more interest rate cuts, a team of the Washington-based fund's officials visiting the country said Australians faced significantly weaker income growth than they have been used to over the past two decades.
    James Daniel, the IMF's mission chief to Australia, said economic growth was likely to remain at about a new normal of just 2.5 per cent over the longer term, falling well short of the forecasts outlined in the May budget for growth of about 3.5 per cent.''

    The IMF have been known to be wrong of course...
    I happily admit I know nothing of these matters, but there it is as an official and presumably expertly informed opinion. I leave it to others to digest.

    My experience is that experts are every bit as bad at economic forecasts as non-experts.

    I do not think that either the IMF or the OECD has a particularly stellar forecasting record. And there are many who strongly criticize their economic prescriptions for countries - from all sides. Certainly nothing they declare should be taken as Gospel.
    IMF often seem keen on upping/broadening VAT/GST - is there any particular reason for that? It must be anti-consumption....

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    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?


    Been mulling this over. Assume that Benn would not have been electable to the party in September, as too left-wing. If he now gets anointed by Labour MPs as some sort of saviour from the horrors of Corbyn - might not Corbyn think that was a pretty good outcome? A left-leaning Leader installed - with the party machinery now stacked in favour of the Left - that would be a decent legacy from his own personal political perspective, wouldn't it? A whole lot better outcome than any of Burnham/Cooper/Kendall...
    Its a good bit of mulling - but does it really hold water?
    Just how left is Benn? Are we to believe that Corbyn or McDonnald would keep any influence if Benn or AN Other became leader? Just where is the benefit to either of them in coming out on the sticky end of that downside.
    To what extent do any of these Corbynistas care about the 2020 election. They have their teeth into the Labour Party - for goodness sake this is manna from heaven for them, all their Christmases come at once, a heaven sent once in a lifetime orgasmic wet dream of an opportunistic fantasy come true.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418

    If Margaret Thatcher was in power now, ISIS would already be just a big pile of ashes!

    I think Margaret Thatcher would have struggled with the international situation as we now find it. Whilst she is known as the last PM who 'stood up' to the Americans, she was a passionate and sincere atlanticist. At some point, she would have been in for a severe disillusionment about that country's 'contribution' to world stability and security. Her hardening stance against Britain's EU membership toward the end of her life would (for example) have put her on a direct collision course with the US.
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    Mr. Flightpath, I think the figure I read was that Sparta's Lycurgan constitution lasted for 800 years.

    Rome had a diarchical approach during the Republic (two consuls), which lasted about 500 years.

    I suppose its how you divvy up the responsibilities.
    As Mrs Thatcher said, 'Every PM needs a Willie.' ! :-)
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Mortimer said:

    MTimT said:

    Australia
    The Financial Review quotes the IMF (Sept 15)
    ''The Abbott government's budget repair is at risk of floundering because of over-inflated revenue and spending expectations, says a damning assessment by the International Monetary Fund that calls for a broader GST, ending the capital gains tax discount and curbs to high-end superannuation concessions.
    Delivering a warning that the Reserve Bank of Australia might need to deliver more interest rate cuts, a team of the Washington-based fund's officials visiting the country said Australians faced significantly weaker income growth than they have been used to over the past two decades.
    James Daniel, the IMF's mission chief to Australia, said economic growth was likely to remain at about a new normal of just 2.5 per cent over the longer term, falling well short of the forecasts outlined in the May budget for growth of about 3.5 per cent.''

    The IMF have been known to be wrong of course...
    I happily admit I know nothing of these matters, but there it is as an official and presumably expertly informed opinion. I leave it to others to digest.

    My experience is that experts are every bit as bad at economic forecasts as non-experts.

    I do not think that either the IMF or the OECD has a particularly stellar forecasting record. And there are many who strongly criticize their economic prescriptions for countries - from all sides. Certainly nothing they declare should be taken as Gospel.
    IMF often seem keen on upping/broadening VAT/GST - is there any particular reason for that? It must be anti-consumption....

    I am not a tax expert, but my guess is that VAT is supposedly a non-market-distorting tax.

    It is also, of course, a very regressive tax as the poor spend a greater percentage of their income on consumption.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    surbiton said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Harriet
    Hardly - she bears responsibility for Corbyn getting momentum in the first place!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Charismatic?
    Neither was Howard, they need an experienced unity candidate first
    Experienced?

    Howard had served as a Secretary of State of one of the great offices of state. Which great office of state has Benn been Secretary for in government?
    Hilary Benn Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural affairs and International Development, he is also Shadow Foreign Secretary as Howard was Shadow Chancellor, there is no alternative!
    Neither DEFRA nor International Development are great offices of state comparable to Home Secretary. The comparison is very weak.
    Your comparison is utterly irrelevant, Benn, like Howard, is the only Shadow Cabinet Minister who was also a Cabinet Minister and is in one of the 3 main Shadow Ministerial roles ie Shadow Home Sec, Shadow Foreign Sec or Shadow Chancellor and who also has some appeal to the 'soft left' as Howard had appeal to the 'soft right', whether he was Home Secretary or Agriculture Secretary is irrelevant, he is the only potential unity candidate on offer!
    Andrew Burnham was SoS for Health and senior to Benn in Brown's government. He wouldn't be the unity candidate of course for several other reasons, but Benn's not the only ex cabinet minister at the top of the tree.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Shadsy now offering 2/7 labour in OW&R.

    5/2 UKIP.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    Afternoon all :)

    On-topic, Alastair makes the not unreasonable argument that our old friend TINA is in the room. One of the biggest failings of the Miliband leadership was the failure to create a coherent alternative philosophical and policy-driven prospectus to the Coalition (and now the majority Conservatives).

    In opposition, a party has two choices - repudiate the concensus in the hope of creating a new one or signing up to the concensus and argue it could be managed better. I would argue Thatcher did the former and Blair the latter. Both approaches can work under the right circumstances but there has to be coherence - Miliband/Balls utterly failed to convince they could run the public finances better than Osborne/Alexander.

    Corbyn's dilemma is whatever he says "sounds" or is interpreted by his media opponents as being wrong. His comments on "shoot-to-kill", in another time and place, would have been reasonable but in the current climate sound weak to the point of foolishness.

    The current "mood" is vengeful and fearful at the same time. It's ideal for an activist Government like the current administration which enjoys looking like it's "doing something" (a trait of the Blair years) because it reassures and convinces that a) it is and b) it understands that people think it should. A more cynical analysis might be the "something" isn't really all that much at all but is for domestic consumption.

    Given three of the permanent members of the UN Security Council are militarily involved in Syria, it looks silly that we aren't (and I think the Chinese should be too). Once again, the armchair generals are urging "boots on the ground" (the answer to any and every question it seems) and so back we go to interventionist neo-con foreign policy (which worked so well last time of course).

    Once we militarily defeat IS and have liberated Raqqa, Mosul and the rest, what then ? The post-Afghanistan Al-Qaeda diaspora brought terror to Europe and elsewhere in time - do we have the confidence to assert that even if smashed militarily, IS won't continue to be a significant terror threat for years to come ?
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    geoffw said:

    Is it possible for the parliamentary party to "go over the head" of the membership to appeal directly to (erstwhile) Labour voters? The problem is that the Corbynite tendency in the party membership has driven a wedge between MPs and voters.

    The only way that works is if they all resign as MPs and go get a new mandate from their voters, not from their local party. Even getting nominated as the Labour candidate would be fun...
    They would not even have to resign their seats. If 150 gave up the Labour whip and continued to sit as the Parliamentary Labour Party they could elect one of their number to become the Leader of the Opposition. Interesting to see what the unions would then do.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited November 2015
    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    Regarding Australia:

    It's now a quarter century since Australia last had a recession...

    The IMF is right to be relatively concerned about the economic outlook, although I think fixating on level of sales tax is incorrect.

    Essentially, Australia is a commodity exporter. It exports iron ore, coal, and other raw materials - mostly to China. (See: http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/aus/). Interestingly, as far as economic complexity (i.e., how much intellectual property there is in its exports), Australia ranks 71st in the world. For comparison, Spain is 25th.

    We have just come to the end of a 15 year commodity "super-cycle" driven by China's modernisation. Australia was one of the main benificiaries of this. As China moves from an investment led economy to a consumption led one, it will import significantly smaller quantities of raw materials, and therefore we can expect commodities to go through one of the periodic downcycles (like 1980 to 2000).

    Australia is going into a commodity downcycle with extended consumer balance sheets. Fortunately, government debt is very low, so the government can afford to run budget deficits during the commodity downcycle. Nevertheless, it is likely that there will be a reasonable sized recession in Australia's near future.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    Andrew Burnham was SoS for Health and senior to Benn in Brown's government. He wouldn't be the unity candidate of course for several other reasons, but Benn's not the only ex cabinet minister at the top of the tree.
    On reflection I think Angela Eagle, Corbyn's nominal deputy, was also in Brown's last cabinet - SoS for transport, if memory serves. But God help Labour if things get so bad that even Eagle is considered an improvement.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato.. the trailer looks fun My current Director.. an ambitious young lady.. would not have accepted any one of the set ups..framing..lighting..staging..Time for me to finally quit TV methinks..
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    @Plato

    surbiton is very definitely not a Corbynista
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    Post Corbyn: the excuses!

    Corbyn - I wasn't there really
    Burnham - I'm with the flavour of the month
    Ummuna - I respect Jeremy and everyone who stood on him
    Eagle - (Slightly out of sync) We're disappointed in the Party's decision.
    Eagle2 - are you sure this'll make us attractive?
    Abbot - At last!
    Kendall - I didn't sleep with Diane
    Benn - oh yes, that's what i thought. What was that again?
    Ed - FFS
    DMill - I'm staying on the fringes
    PostmanPat - Beg me, please beg me
    Prescott - I'll do ya! (from m' jag!)
    Blair - this represents a great opportunity for those in the middle ground to come together and make me some money.
    Brown - I was so right. So fucking right. All the time I was right. Right, right, right! PS. Are there any showers in the hotels nearby - I could sneak one!
    Mrs Brown - If he's going out now do you reckon I have 15 minutes to escape?
    Mrs Blair - I am Cheri !



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    Plato.. the trailer looks fun My current Director.. an ambitious young lady.. would not have accepted any one of the set ups..framing..lighting..staging..Time for me to finally quit TV methinks..

    Evening Mr Dodd - Weren't you behind Whicker's World ? - One of the longest running TV shows with a dozen awards under its belt?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418
    The priority must be security in the ME. This should be based on a balance of strong nationalisms - democratic if possible, stable and relatively free as a minimum (unless already established - I'm not suggesting deposing the Gulf monarchs).
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418

    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    In terms of personalities, I completely agree. But there are more powerful interests in America than the President.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited November 2015
    SSC Yes..I was lucky to work with Alan for well over 20 years.. and we remained good friends until he passed away.. we shared many brilliant moments..great times for me..
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    Brussels to remain closed tomorrow:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34896125
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    Moses_ said:

    HYUFD there is an alternative anyway. A former Home Secretary (like Howard) who could be a unity candidate still serves as an MP ... Alan Johnson

    Posties turned it down at least twice. Even bailed from the SCOTE. Position. (Though I think he should get some credit for that but won't.)

    Frying pan/ fire candidate.
    Never believe anything until it's been officially denied. The fact that he's turned it down is precisely because he's long been touted as a serious contender. The fact that he's turned it down also is because he's not such an ambitious egotist which is a good thing with a young cardinals/old Pope unity candidate which is what he'd be. The postie is balanced enough for the party to unite behind without being firmly in any particular camp that would anger opponents.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I wonder if the school kids in Brussels are making the phone calls about ISIS..
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Brussels to remain closed tomorrow:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34896125

    How long can they go on like this?
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779

    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    In terms of personalities, I completely agree. But there are more powerful interests in America than the President.
    I don't think that's true. US presidents haven't much exerted their influence, but that influence is considerable. It's also unchallenged in that he (or maybe she) has a mandate.

    I hope that this influence will take a massive nosedive should Trump ever come to power.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854

    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    That's absurd. Our reservations about intervention in the ME have been indelibly shaped by the Iraq/Afghanistan experiences, probably more so for the US than for the UK. Had there never been an Iraq War, I suspect we would be more prepared to intervene against IS.

    The much-denigrated appeasers of the 1930s were people whose formative experience had been the horror of the Western Front. To ask, in the light of the Iraq experience, the point of sending British troops to Syria isn't wholly unreasonable. Unopposed airpower and the use of missiles removes the human equation from our side.

    Sending troops and watching some of them come back in coffins has had a deleterious effect on morale in many countries but this happens in the absence of a clear, unambiguous political objective. Margaret Thatcher would have been savvy enough to have asked the key questions about post-Saddam Iraq and indeed post-IS Syria.
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    SSC Yes..I was lucky to work with Alan for well over 20 years.. and we remained good friends until he passed away.. we shared many brilliant moments..great times for me..

    Back in the early 70s, W’s W was one of the very few programmes the family would sit and watch together. Should you decide to hang up your spurs, you will always have that to look back on and take pride on your contribution to some ground breaking and entertaining TV.
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    I know quite a few PBers have been playing Fallout 4, so I post this without any further comment.

    PornHub had a 10% drop in traffic from gamers on Fallout 4 release day

    http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a773996/pornhub-had-a-10-drop-in-traffic-from-gamers-on-fallout-4-release-day/
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    David Lammy is apparently keen to build on the support he's had in previous campaigns.

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    Mr. Eagles, ha, I did know that already.

    Some say that's a better metric for success than almost anything else.

    Mr. JS, no idea. But it seems a very significant action to take.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2015
    An interesting, if slightly clueless, field report from a Labour activist in Oldham:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/3tq9fb/observations_from_campaigning_in_oldham/
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    On topic I understand what and why Mr Meeks has written, but something tells me this can't go on for much longer.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Stodge You may not have noticed..but when you send troops into a war zone.. it is guaranteed that some of them will come home in coffins.. It is what makes the PMs job a real ball breaker..
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Have a look at the C2D2 class bit too - I saw some hideous figs posted on Twitter earlier.

    Skimming the ComRes poll, one thing struck me in particular - the marked demographic skew in Corbyn's ratings. At its simplest, those old enough to remember a left-wing Labour government really don't like him:

    'I Trust Jeremy Corbyn to keep me & my family safe: (net agree)
    18-24: -15
    25-34: -19
    35-44: -29
    45-54: -41
    55-64: -58
    65+ : -70

    Net Favourable view of Jeremy Corbyn:
    18-24: 0
    25-34: -5
    35-44: -15
    45-54: -28
    55-64: -45
    65+ : -62

    Yes - C2 are out of whack vs C1 and DE:

    Net Favourable:
    AB: -39
    C1: -21
    C2: -30
    DE: -25
    Aren't they what an old-timer like me would consider skilled working class: exactly the sort of person who is aspirational and will be hammered by Corbyn.

    The C1 grouping includes a lot of junior/mid level public sector workers and union members, so I'm not surprised there's a leftwards tilt.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    SSC Thank you for the compliment..I joined Alan in 1973..In Australia.. Whickers Walkabout..we went back a couple of times after that..
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited November 2015

    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    I doubt that very much. That simply is not how it works. Maggie would have made her view known in private but she would never have gone public criticising the White House. You are being naive to think otherwise.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    It will certainly be a watershed moment. If he fails to carry the PLP on such a vote then he could carry no other and as you say the Stalking horse would most likely appear. If The PLP fails to have the cojones to resist the three line whip theN Corby could as good as do what he likes and would not be removed.

    The ironic thing is that either way he will have a de facto civil war behind the scenes and spend more time looking at people behind him than in front. Not good for Labour either way really. All their own fault as well.
    I wonder what odds you'd get on the Syria vote being (say) two days before the Oldham by-election?
    Ha yes ...That would be interesting but may play into UKIPs hands as Tories haven't a hope here. I think the Tories may well wish to keep corbyn there for just a little while longer yet and let nature take its course.

    A labour leader is for life you know...... not just until Christmas. :lol:
    Northern Tories do seem pretty resistant to tactical voting. The LDs are putting in quite an effort, so may make an impact on the Labour share. I think UKIP will struggle to take the seat though, better at talking than campaigning. I am on at 8/1 though as seemed good value.

    I think that better not to have the Syria debate on 1 Dec. The Junior Doctors dispute will dominate the news on 1 and 2nd Dec.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Charismatic?
    Neither was Howard, they need an experienced unity candidate first
    Experienced?

    Howard had served as a Secretary of State of one of the great offices of state. Which great office of state has Benn been Secretary for in government?
    He was definitely Home Secretary (his flat was opposite mine and the police presence meant my insurance went way down). I thought he was briefly Foreign Secretary as well - but it may have been shadow?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2015
    Positive news for the LDs in Oldham. An activist reports as follows:

    "I was up there for 3 days, managed to get a Labour voter who voted all his life to consider to lend his vote to the Lib Dems. Seem happy to do so. Hopefully we can get the same with many others."

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/3tq9fb/observations_from_campaigning_in_oldham/
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    Mr. Foxinsox, agreed, but there's a danger to Labour that UKIP will make more headway, soaking up WWC voters who are not necessarily impressed by the People's Front of Islington.
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    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    Moses_ said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    TudorRose said:

    HYUFD said:

    The 'right' of the Labour Party represents 4.5% of the membership. They are not going to regain control. However, a charismatic figure of the 'soft left' could garner enough support from across the party to beat JC in a head to head contest. Any suggestions on who that might be?

    Hilary Benn obviously, though I expect him to be anointed unopposed only once virtually all Labour MPs are on board
    Might not be too far away if Cameron can get enough on board in the Syria vote.
    We shall see
    If Corbyn sticks to his present line and applies a whip then I can see the Syria vote becoming a rallying point for prospective stalking horses.
    It will certainly be a watershed moment. If he fails to carry the PLP on such a vote then he could carry no other and as you say the Stalking horse would most likely appear. If The PLP fails to have the cojones to resist the three line whip theN Corby could as good as do what he likes and would not be removed.

    The ironic thing is that either way he will have a de facto civil war behind the scenes and spend more time looking at people behind him than in front. Not good for Labour either way really. All their own fault as well.
    I wonder what odds you'd get on the Syria vote being (say) two days before the Oldham by-election?
    Ha yes ...That would be interesting but may play into UKIPs hands as Tories haven't a hope here. I think the Tories may well wish to keep corbyn there for just a little while longer yet and let nature take its course.

    A labour leader is for life you know...... not just until Christmas. :lol:
    Northern Tories do seem pretty resistant to tactical voting. The LDs are putting in quite an effort, so may make an impact on the Labour share. I think UKIP will struggle to take the seat though, better at talking than campaigning. I am on at 8/1 though as seemed good value.

    I think that better not to have the Syria debate on 1 Dec. The Junior Doctors dispute will dominate the news on 1 and 2nd Dec.

    I'm watching out for the knowledgeable Labour comments on this seat. It sounds very shaky. That might, however, be wishful thinking in the case of some Labour rightwingers.

    Anyway, UKIP look value at any price above 2/1 for definite on all the smoke signals we're getting.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,525
    Superb use of a photo.

    Here's ... Jerry.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    I know quite a few PBers have been playing Fallout 4, so I post this without any further comment.

    PornHub had a 10% drop in traffic from gamers on Fallout 4 release day

    http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a773996/pornhub-had-a-10-drop-in-traffic-from-gamers-on-fallout-4-release-day/

    Coincidence. Complete coincidence.

    Enjoying Fallout4 now having got over initial audio problems.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MS Maggie would not have had to go Public. her private comments would have reached the points she wanted to to reach and got her the results she wanted.Obama would have been putty in her hands..A family member of my wife was adviser to six Presidents..that is the way it works...so not quite so naive
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Omnium said:

    Mr. Omnium, sounds like you want to re-establish exit controls, as I think they were called, which were abolished early on by New Labour. [I think they just took a note of who and how many people were leaving the country].

    We mostly have that anyway don't we? If you book a flight to sunny climes you'll be noted as such.

    There are benefits as well as downsides to the government knowing where you are - tea at the Embassy for example.
    When my Dad was younger he was briefly arrested in Algeria (trying to stow-away on the President's yacht).

    The Ambassador popped over to see him - to tell him that he'd spoke to his father (my Grandfather) who had instructed that my father be left in prison for a week to teach him not to be an idiot.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Stodge You may not have noticed..but when you send troops into a war zone.. it is guaranteed that some of them will come home in coffins.. It is what makes the PMs job a real ball breaker..

    On this occasion it must be the fear of one that is caught and the televised treatment that will no doubt follow. It's certainly something that will focus a lot of minds about boots on the ground and even with air war where a pilot is just as much at risk in the event of any bale out situation. Not an easy decision in a standard conflict but certainly complicated in this situation whoever sits in No 10.
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    Resident Evil or President Evil?

    :lol:
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'The much-denigrated appeasers of the 1930s were people whose formative experience had been the horror of the Western Front'

    Yes but they were still wrong, weren't they?
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    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    I doubt that very much. That simply is not how it works. Maggie would have made her view known in private but she would never have gone public criticising the White House. You are being naive to think otherwise.
    Grenada?
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    Charles said:

    Have a look at the C2D2 class bit too - I saw some hideous figs posted on Twitter earlier.

    Skimming the ComRes poll, one thing struck me in particular - the marked demographic skew in Corbyn's ratings. At its simplest, those old enough to remember a left-wing Labour government really don't like him:

    'I Trust Jeremy Corbyn to keep me & my family safe: (net agree)
    18-24: -15
    25-34: -19
    35-44: -29
    45-54: -41
    55-64: -58
    65+ : -70

    Net Favourable view of Jeremy Corbyn:
    18-24: 0
    25-34: -5
    35-44: -15
    45-54: -28
    55-64: -45
    65+ : -62

    Yes - C2 are out of whack vs C1 and DE:

    Net Favourable:
    AB: -39
    C1: -21
    C2: -30
    DE: -25
    Aren't they what an old-timer like me would consider skilled working class: exactly the sort of person who is aspirational and will be hammered by Corbyn.

    The C1 grouping includes a lot of junior/mid level public sector workers and union members, so I'm not surprised there's a leftwards tilt.
    Socialism is supported by those who can either afford it or can't afford not to have it.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    I doubt that very much. That simply is not how it works. Maggie would have made her view known in private but she would never have gone public criticising the White House. You are being naive to think otherwise.
    Grenada?
    You mean the time HM was Queen of a single-party Marxist-Leninist socialist state? Good times.
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    Moses_ said:

    Stodge You may not have noticed..but when you send troops into a war zone.. it is guaranteed that some of them will come home in coffins.. It is what makes the PMs job a real ball breaker..

    On this occasion it must be the fear of one that is caught and the televised treatment that will no doubt follow. It's certainly something that will focus a lot of minds about boots on the ground and even with air war where a pilot is just as much at risk in the event of any bale out situation. Not an easy decision in a standard conflict but certainly complicated in this situation whoever sits in No 10.
    There are many other boots on the ground who are able to fight for their own country. Certainly the prospect of a dead or captured soldier is real, but the notion of our troops on the ground is best related to special forces and then mainly as advisers.
    Our armed forces need to be slanted more to special and elite forces.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418
    Omnium said:

    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    In terms of personalities, I completely agree. But there are more powerful interests in America than the President.
    I don't think that's true. US presidents haven't much exerted their influence, but that influence is considerable. It's also unchallenged in that he (or maybe she) has a mandate.

    I hope that this influence will take a massive nosedive should Trump ever come to power.
    There's really nothing I can say to this. There's such a gulf in opinion that we won't meet it in one comment thread.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Moses I quite agree..I fondly imagine our pilots may be supplied with an option of last resort..go on global TV or pull the pin..
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418

    Moses_ said:

    Famous Belgians won't be Hercule Poirot for much longer at this rate.

    Omnium said:

    0_o Belgium?!

    As Britain's Davis Cup team delay their trip to Belgium, the Foreign Office has updated its guidance for travelling to the country.

    It is now advising visitors not to go to places in the country with large numbers of people. Here are the full details
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/12010302/Brussels-Belgium-terror-alert-on-Sunday-as-Paris-manhunt-goes-on-live.html#update-20151122-1536
    World's gone mad!

    It was interesting yesterday that they wanted to do house to house surveys. I'd not mind that at all if they came knocking. National ID cards seem a good idea now in retrospect too.

    I seem to recollect that TInTIn was good at sorting this sort of stuff out. How times change.
    Tin Tin was quite useless on his own. To succeed he needed Captain Haddock, the Thompson Twins and, of course, Snowy. Some Belgian geek in plus fours was never good enough, he needed Brits around him to survive.

    None of those characters were British were they? Thompson and Thomson were called Dupond and Dupont (or similar) in the original books to my knowledge.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060

    If Margaret Thatcher was in power now, ISIS would already be just a big pile of ashes!

    I think Margaret Thatcher would have struggled with the international situation as we now find it. Whilst she is known as the last PM who 'stood up' to the Americans, she was a passionate and sincere atlanticist. At some point, she would have been in for a severe disillusionment about that country's 'contribution' to world stability and security. Her hardening stance against Britain's EU membership toward the end of her life would (for example) have put her on a direct collision course with the US.
    This rings true for me.

    Would anyone who's read it recommend her book 'Statecraft'?
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    Charles said:

    Omnium said:

    Mr. Omnium, sounds like you want to re-establish exit controls, as I think they were called, which were abolished early on by New Labour. [I think they just took a note of who and how many people were leaving the country].

    We mostly have that anyway don't we? If you book a flight to sunny climes you'll be noted as such.

    There are benefits as well as downsides to the government knowing where you are - tea at the Embassy for example.
    When my Dad was younger he was briefly arrested in Algeria (trying to stow-away on the President's yacht).

    The Ambassador popped over to see him - to tell him that he'd spoke to his father (my Grandfather) who had instructed that my father be left in prison for a week to teach him not to be an idiot.
    Nothing beats a bit of British diplomatic assistance.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Omnium...Tough Love..
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    ITV News

    Church of England "bewildered" by refusal of cinemas to show Church of England advert featuring the Lord's Prayer. It is considered that it may cause offence to other religions and atheists.

    CofE now considering legal action.

    This will be interesting especially if it gets a legal hearing. Lots of cans of worms in this one.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779

    If Margaret Thatcher was in power now, ISIS would already be just a big pile of ashes!

    I think Margaret Thatcher would have struggled with the international situation as we now find it. Whilst she is known as the last PM who 'stood up' to the Americans, she was a passionate and sincere atlanticist. At some point, she would have been in for a severe disillusionment about that country's 'contribution' to world stability and security. Her hardening stance against Britain's EU membership toward the end of her life would (for example) have put her on a direct collision course with the US.
    This rings true for me.

    Would anyone who's read it recommend her book 'Statecraft'?
    You won't go wrong in reading it, but it won't enlighten you.
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    I think Maggie would have sorted out the limp lettuce leaf Obama in a very short time..She would have publicly asked questions that his own Congress seem afraid to ask..she would have shamed him..

    I doubt that very much. That simply is not how it works. Maggie would have made her view known in private but she would never have gone public criticising the White House. You are being naive to think otherwise.
    Yes I agree. There is a load of downright fanciful thinking going on with the pro Mrs T brigade. Much as I adore her, she like every other politician on Gods Earth (and blog editor and commentator) was not perfect and indeed was lets face it PM when the Falklands was invaded. No doubt Mrs T learned a lesson about the Foreign Office, but it was too late by then.
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    @DavidWooding: Labour set for bloody nose at Oldham ballot box https://t.co/wxJHDoK7VX via @SunNation
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    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Church of England "bewildered" by refusal of cinemas to show Church of England advert featuring the Lord's Prayer. It is considered that it may cause offence to other religions and atheists.

    CofE now considering legal action.

    This will be interesting especially if it gets a legal hearing. Lots of cans of worms in this one.

    I don't really see how legal action would work... but nevertheless an idiotic policy, that bans the harmless and allows the offensive (but at least we could say the latter was consistent with cinemas' defence of films).
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Moses The CoE has absolutely no right to impose its will on a private enterprise...if it wishes to spread its ridiculous propaganda then perhaps it should start with one of its empty churches
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    Famous Belgians won't be Hercule Poirot for much longer at this rate.

    Omnium said:

    0_o Belgium?!

    As Britain's Davis Cup team delay their trip to Belgium, the Foreign Office has updated its guidance for travelling to the country.

    It is now advising visitors not to go to places in the country with large numbers of people. Here are the full details
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/12010302/Brussels-Belgium-terror-alert-on-Sunday-as-Paris-manhunt-goes-on-live.html#update-20151122-1536
    World's gone mad!

    It was interesting yesterday that they wanted to do house to house surveys. I'd not mind that at all if they came knocking. National ID cards seem a good idea now in retrospect too.

    I seem to recollect that TInTIn was good at sorting this sort of stuff out. How times change.
    Tin Tin was quite useless on his own. To succeed he needed Captain Haddock, the Thompson Twins and, of course, Snowy. Some Belgian geek in plus fours was never good enough, he needed Brits around him to survive.
    None of those characters were British were they? Thompson and Thomson were called Dupond and Dupont (or similar) in the original books to my knowledge.

    Correct....

    The series is set during a largely realistic[3] 20th century. Its hero is Tintin, a young Belgian reporter and adventurer. He is aided by his faithful fox terrier dog Snowy (Milou in the original French edition). Later, popular additions to the cast included the brash and cynical Captain Haddock, the highly intelligent but hearing-impaired Professor Calculus (French: Professeur Tournesol), and other supporting characters such as the incompetent detectives Thomson and Thompson (French: Dupont et Dupond) and the opera diva Bianca Castafiore.

    Would make a good pub quiz question that.

    http://en.tintin.com/
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Tintin
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    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Church of England "bewildered" by refusal of cinemas to show Church of England advert featuring the Lord's Prayer. It is considered that it may cause offence to other religions and atheists.

    CofE now considering legal action.

    This will be interesting especially if it gets a legal hearing. Lots of cans of worms in this one.

    I don't really see how legal action would work... but nevertheless an idiotic policy, that bans the harmless and allows the offensive (but at least we could say the latter was consistent with cinemas' defence of films).
    DCM are clear that they don't allow political or religious advertising at all. If they are forced to change that policy, it opens a whole can of worms.
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    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    Famous Belgians won't be Hercule Poirot for much longer at this rate.

    Omnium said:

    0_o Belgium?!

    As Britain's Davis Cup team delay their trip to Belgium, the Foreign Office has updated its guidance for travelling to the country.

    It is now advising visitors not to go to places in the country with large numbers of people. Here are the full details
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/12010302/Brussels-Belgium-terror-alert-on-Sunday-as-Paris-manhunt-goes-on-live.html#update-20151122-1536
    World's gone mad!

    It was interesting yesterday that they wanted to do house to house surveys. I'd not mind that at all if they came knocking. National ID cards seem a good idea now in retrospect too.

    I seem to recollect that TInTIn was good at sorting this sort of stuff out. How times change.
    Tin Tin was quite useless on his own. To succeed he needed Captain Haddock, the Thompson Twins and, of course, Snowy. Some Belgian geek in plus fours was never good enough, he needed Brits around him to survive.
    None of those characters were British were they? Thompson and Thomson were called Dupond and Dupont (or similar) in the original books to my knowledge.
    Correct....

    The series is set during a largely realistic[3] 20th century. Its hero is Tintin, a young Belgian reporter and adventurer. He is aided by his faithful fox terrier dog Snowy (Milou in the original French edition). Later, popular additions to the cast included the brash and cynical Captain Haddock, the highly intelligent but hearing-impaired Professor Calculus (French: Professeur Tournesol), and other supporting characters such as the incompetent detectives Thomson and Thompson (French: Dupont et Dupond) and the opera diva Bianca Castafiore.

    Would make a good pub quiz question that.

    http://en.tintin.com/
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Tintin


    I've been asked it before!

    Haddock is also French in the original, but he is clearly influenced by the British: an old seafarer, addicted to Scotch whisky.
This discussion has been closed.