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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Alex Salmond tells the Commons about this morning’s PB Osbo

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  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,744
    PClipp said:

    kle4 said:

    Also, is it just me or is Osborne aging in reverse? I know he lost some weight a few years back, but honestly he looks younger even considering that. I think he may be an alien.

    I don´t know, Mr Kle, but the photo that OGH used in the previous thread strangely put me in mind of Kenneth Williams. Do you think they could be related?
    Nothing should be ruled out.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Chris_A said:

    C4 News. Women on tv complaining about having to pay her own incontinence pads.

    I'm seriously pissed off by the misinformation spread on this issue. It's complete nonsense for them all to bleat about the government treating tampons at luxury. They are only taxed at 5% (the best the government can do) whereas medicines, for example, are taxed at 20%. And the sour faced harpies even deride Osborn's largesse towards the charities who will benefit; he needn't have done anything.
    If they want to blame someone, they should be blaming the EU.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    surbiton said:

    Hopi Sen twitter feeds reads like somebody about to witness the most almighty of pile ups...

    what's he doing,
    he's pulled out a little red book,
    no don't say, no don't say Let's quote from Mao,
    oh god he has,
    sadness in their eyes....
    [RADIO SILENCE]

    I remember the day when the likes of Hopi were in the "centre" of the Labour Party, now he must feel like the weird outsider in his own party.

    Who is this Hopi Sen that PB Tories are so excited about ?
    A sensible labour supporter - they are getting rarer than hen's teeth.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,995
    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779

    taffys said:

    ''I am bemused that he thinks he has this amount to play with when the month on month figures for the deficit have not been great.''

    He doesn't. And when the finances are all at sea in a year's time, the public will realise George Osborne will never close the deficit, if he had fifty years to do it.

    More importantly, so will the markets.

    £20 at evens says there will be a budget surplus by 2020. What do you think?
    Odds on that Osborne delivers if nothing 'weird' happens, but that bet is in trouble if something 'weird' does. I'm entirely happy to accept GO's planned trajectory, but I'd bet against merely because of the variabilities of the world.

    The terms are everything though. A monthly budget surplus happens often. For an annual budget surplus (again terms) I'd certainly bet against. Anyway I'd take your offered bet.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    Or not make 30% of their casualties civilians.
    It's okay. They're not civilians, they're all Islamists. I mean, they must have been because the Russians hit them ... right ?
    I liked Luckyguy demanding I show proof of that figure clearly expecting a NATO briefing or a western news paper report, he must have had a mental seizure when I used Al Jazeera
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    MikeK said:
    That's rich considering the Russians have spent most of their time so far bombing the groups that are opposing IS.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Anyway I'd take your offered bet. ''

    Me too.
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    Chris_A said:

    The Mao comment is just, as usual, Westminster bubble and media froth, the real story is, if you look at the clip, the faces and demeanour of those behind him. None of them are paying attention.

    I don't think I've seen one side of the House look so disinterested and unwilling to support their own speaker as in McDonnell's speech today and Corbyns yesterday.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    How long before the latest Labour faction gains the nickname Maomentum?

    Absolutely brilliant!
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    stodge said:

    Behind this is the desperate need to be popular - anything challenging that popularity is dropped so pensioners are protected and molly-coddled because they vote Conservative. Tax credits are dropped because they are unpopular with Conservative voters not because they are bad policy. As others have argued, with the Opposition in disarray, this is the time to do the unpopular things that need to be done. Osborne (who has his own election in mind) backs away from that and clearing down the deficit in favour of the popular road to nowhere.

    What unalloyed poppycock.

    The changes to tax credits were dropped because, err, the government didn't have the votes to continue with them. You have noticed that the government's majority is only 12, and the Lords is stuffed with Labour and LibDem peers, I suppose?

    As it is, Osborne has made a minor tactical retreat and plans to cover much of the shortfall with a small tax increase on business. (I say 'small' because it's a 0.5% payroll tax on large employers only, compared with the existing 13.8% payroll tax on all employers). The rest of the shortfall is covered by slightly improved projections. No doubt there will be other adjustments in future budgets and autumn statements.

    Meanwhile, the UK continues to be one of the very few economic bright spots in the world.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    Or not make 30% of their casualties civilians.
    Once again, can you provide some evidence for this claim? You keep on making it; I'll keep on asking - it has the potential to get boring.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/hundreds-killed-russian-air-strikes-syria-151029130146883.html

    As I posted last time you asked and then you completely ignored it.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    matt said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:

    Still can't believe the Shadow Chancellor stood up in the Commons today and quoted from a book written by the biggest mass murderer in history.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

    Yes, the same people we have sold our nuclear industry to at double the current wholesale electricity prices.
    No its clearly not the same people as Charman Mao. You are rivalling McNutter for being gormless.
    Inward investment is a boon for Britain.
    Looking into the future we do not know if the strike price is a good bad or average deal. What we do know is that Labour ignored nuclear power until it was to late.
    Nuclear power is a load of expensive dangerous rubbish that is popular only with people who want to appear macho.
    If you have a middle life crisis go and buy a Ferrari not a nuclear reactor.

    But I suppose you will be quite happy if the Tories build a nuclear reactor in your neighborhood, after all it's macho and it's Tory.
    Why not?
    Go write a letter then to the PM demanding that they build a nuclear reactor in your garden, go on, if you love nuclear power you have to make sacrifices right?
    Greenwich had a reactor for a long time. Derby declared itself a nuclear-free city. Then it realised how important Rolls-Royce is to its prosperity....
    The Chancellor announced today more funding for research into the next generation of small-scale nuclear power. Similar in scale to a naval reactor.

    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Power-Reactors/Small-Nuclear-Power-Reactors/
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited November 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    How Labour's non-Corbynite MPs stand back and watch this happen and do nothing is just plain cowardice.

    First they came for the Blairites, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Blairite.
    Then they came for the Progress members, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not in Progress.
    Then they came for the moderates, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a moderate.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Sandpit said:

    matt said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:

    Still can't believe the Shadow Chancellor stood up in the Commons today and quoted from a book written by the biggest mass murderer in history.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

    Yes, the same people we have sold our nuclear industry to at double the current wholesale electricity prices.
    No its clearly not the same people as Charman Mao. You are rivalling McNutter for being gormless.
    Inward investment is a boon for Britain.
    Looking into the future we do not know if the strike price is a good bad or average deal. What we do know is that Labour ignored nuclear power until it was to late.
    Nuclear power is a load of expensive dangerous rubbish that is popular only with people who want to appear macho.
    If you have a middle life crisis go and buy a Ferrari not a nuclear reactor.

    But I suppose you will be quite happy if the Tories build a nuclear reactor in your neighborhood, after all it's macho and it's Tory.
    Why not?
    Go write a letter then to the PM demanding that they build a nuclear reactor in your garden, go on, if you love nuclear power you have to make sacrifices right?
    Greenwich had a reactor for a long time. Derby declared itself a nuclear-free city. Then it realised how important Rolls-Royce is to its prosperity....
    The Chancellor announced today more funding for research into the next generation of small-scale nuclear power. Similar in scale to a naval reactor.

    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Power-Reactors/Small-Nuclear-Power-Reactors/
    Small enough for flightpath01's garden!!
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    I'd imagine they did check. I'm sure there will be some disappointed jihadis who won't be getting an early visit from Santa with some shiny new toys this year. Sorry if I don't get too upset.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Chris_A said:

    The Mao comment is just, as usual, Westminster bubble and media froth, the real story is, if you look at the clip, the faces and demeanour of those behind him. None of them are paying attention.

    I don't think I've seen one side of the House look so disinterested and unwilling to support their own speaker as in McDonnell's speech today and Corbyns yesterday.
    Wait until tomorrow - Syria debate! Orders more popcorn.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    I don't think so. Dave is loyal to a fault and does not sack ministers even when they are a liability.

    ACAS talks start at 10 AM tommorow. The BMA are not suspending the strike until they find out if Hunt is serious, in particular he needs to withdraw the threat of unilateral imposition.

    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    My understanding is that, like humans replace every cell in their body during our life, there is no original part of any B52 bomber...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015
    Chris_A said:

    C4 News. Women on tv complaining about having to pay her own incontinence pads.

    I'm seriously pissed off by the misinformation spread on this issue. It's complete nonsense for them all to bleat about the government treating tampons at luxury. They are only taxed at 5% (the best the government can do) whereas medicines, for example, are taxed at 20%. And the sour faced harpies even deride Osborn's largesse towards the charities who will benefit; he needn't have done anything.
    It wouldn't matter what Osborne did, he would still be the devil to some. R5 went to the Socialist Republic of Liverpool for some unbiased public feedback on his statement and of course it didn't matter he had stopped the tax credit cut, the scousers on tax credits weren't happy, that he had stops cuts to the plod, the scouser plodster wasn't happy, etc etc etc. It wouldn't matter what he had done, it would have gone down about as well as a Sun roadshow, with special guests Boris Johnson and the 1st team of Manchester United.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink

    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2015
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015

    ACAS talks start at 10 AM tommorow. The BMA are not suspending the strike until they find out if Hunt is serious, in particular he needs to withdraw the threat of unilateral imposition.

    He's not going to do that, is he? The BMA aren't serious if they really are still imposing preconditions like that.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:

    Still can't believe the Shadow Chancellor stood up in the Commons today and quoted from a book written by the biggest mass murderer in history.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

    Yes, the same people we have sold our nuclear industry to at double the current wholesale electricity prices.
    No its clearly not the same people as Charman Mao. You are rivalling McNutter for being gormless.
    Inward investment is a boon for Britain.
    Looking into the future we do not know if the strike price is a good bad or average deal. What we do know is that Labour ignored nuclear power until it was to late.
    Nuclear power is a load of expensive dangerous rubbish that is popular only with people who want to appear macho.
    If you have a middle life crisis go and buy a Ferrari not a nuclear reactor.

    But I suppose you will be quite happy if the Tories build a nuclear reactor in your neighborhood, after all it's macho and it's Tory.
    Why not?
    Go write a letter then to the PM demanding that they build a nuclear reactor in your garden, go on, if you love nuclear power you have to make sacrifices right?
    I once stayed in Provence, they were so proud of the local nuclear plant that they sold post cards of it..... I kid you not.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,744
    Chris_A said:

    The Mao comment is just, as usual, Westminster bubble and media froth,

    Froth can sometimes become a symbol of something real, and used to enhance the effect of something real. I assumed hilarity over the Edstone was froth, and yet it had real substance as a reflection of Labour woes. Yes, the real story may be what you say, but the bubble talk and the froth is not necessarily meaningless, even if it was just a poorly executed joke.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    Everone but Corbyn will be purged, as absolute loyalty cannot be assured.
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    stodge said:

    Behind this is the desperate need to be popular - anything challenging that popularity is dropped so pensioners are protected and molly-coddled because they vote Conservative. Tax credits are dropped because they are unpopular with Conservative voters not because they are bad policy. As others have argued, with the Opposition in disarray, this is the time to do the unpopular things that need to be done. Osborne (who has his own election in mind) backs away from that and clearing down the deficit in favour of the popular road to nowhere.

    What unalloyed poppycock.

    The changes to tax credits were dropped because, err, the government didn't have the votes to continue with them. You have noticed that the government's majority is only 12, and the Lords is stuffed with Labour and LibDem peers, I suppose?

    As it is, Osborne has made a minor tactical retreat and plans to cover much of the shortfall with a small tax increase on business. (I say 'small' because it's a 0.5% payroll tax on large employers only, compared with the existing 13.8% payroll tax on all employers). The rest of the shortfall is covered by slightly improved projections. No doubt there will be other adjustments in future budgets and autumn statements.

    Meanwhile, the UK continues to be one of the very few economic bright spots in the world.
    That's not actually true. Osborne could have put the tax credit cuts through in a non-Lords vetoable Finance Bill or rammed it through again next year using the Parliament Act.

    Personally, I felt a tapering was in order but not a wholesale abandonment of the policy.

    I am very cross about the Brownian stealth tax rise on business to pay for it.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    edited November 2015

    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:

    Still can't believe the Shadow Chancellor stood up in the Commons today and quoted from a book written by the biggest mass murderer in history.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

    Yes, the same people we have sold our nuclear industry to at double the current wholesale electricity prices.
    No its clearly not the same people as Charman Mao. You are rivalling McNutter for being gormless.
    Inward investment is a boon for Britain.
    Looking into the future we do not know if the strike price is a good bad or average deal. What we do know is that Labour ignored nuclear power until it was to late.
    You think giving control of our nuclear industry to one of the most authoritarian governments in the world is simply inward investment. The Conservatives spent much time telling us how energy and other infrastructure was best off in the private sector. Now they are happy for it to be in state hands - just so long as it's not British. What a joke their ideology has become.
    No we are not. The Chinese are investing 30% of the Hinkley cost. The company building it is EDF.
    We do not have a nuclear industry since the Labour Party refused to invest in it.
    When you say the Chinese are "investing" 30% of the cost you mean lending us that money and being paid very high interest rates over 30 years in the form of inflated energy prices.

    It is off balance sheet national debt. It is paid for by future generations. But it doesn't count as part of the deficit or national debt. It is a bit like the PFI stunt. Financally illiterate and dishonest.
    EDIT - and hypocritical.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Labour classic top 40 hit parade!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdn_r1sWlsg

    :lol::lol::lol:
    :lol::lol::lol:
    :lol::lol::lol:
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited November 2015

    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
    I do not understand what the problem with the NHS and social care people is. It is easily fixed (for the nhs).
    1. Anyone designated as being capable of release has a 3 working day notice period given to the local authority (LA) where they previously lived.
    2. After that date if still in an NHS bed then the local authority is charged a room rate of I suggest £1,000 a day (non-alz).

    Since the LA can re-home them for outside London under £1,000 a week, then watch the LAs jump to address the problem..... Simples.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,995
    Dair said:

    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.

    Russia isn't the only potential threat out there, as we're seeing at the moment.

    There are also significant problems in not doing something and then trying to skip a generation when we do need it. Both the Chinese and Russians are trying to do this with planes, and both (certainly in the case of Russia, and rumoured in the case of China) are running into problems. Not just in respect to engines, which has always been a problem for those countries, but also avionics.

    If we don't create / help to create the Lightning II's / Type 45s, not only will we not have them in a few years, building the next generation in twenty or thirty years would be much more difficult.

    And as much as Corbyn would like to think otherwise, I cannot see the world being stable enough in the rest of my lifetime *not* to need a military.
  • Options
    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    edited November 2015

    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    I don't think so. Dave is loyal to a fault and does not sack ministers even when they are a liability.

    ACAS talks start at 10 AM tommorow. The BMA are not suspending the strike until they find out if Hunt is serious, in particular he needs to withdraw the threat of unilateral imposition.

    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
    Yes was very impressed with the Wollaston piece this morning. But when has the DoH every based decisions on evidence - there was none for Lansley's crazy reforms. And Hunt's misuse of the hospital mortality statistics was entirely non-evidence based; he'd have been on far firmed ground if he'd waited for today's research on perinatal mortality. That problem, however, won't be cured by having more doctors unless you have all the other ancillary staff as well.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Just checking but some of the other Mao quotes are

    "War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."
    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
    "Classes struggle, some classes triumph, others are eliminated. Such is history; such is the history of civilization for thousands of years." (First mention of a Darwin theory??)

    Not sure how they all fit in with Corby's policies though?

    Labour They really are an utter shambles.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pong said:

    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.

    Kippers ought to be a 2/1 IMO.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    How long before the latest Labour faction gains the nickname Maomentum?

    Ask, and ye shall receive...

    @Maomentum_: We are on the long march to victory
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418
    edited November 2015
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    Or not make 30% of their casualties civilians.
    Once again, can you provide some evidence for this claim? You keep on making it; I'll keep on asking - it has the potential to get boring.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/hundreds-killed-russian-air-strikes-syria-151029130146883.html

    As I posted last time you asked and then you completely ignored it.
    Unlike a lot of the more closed-minded folk on PB, I don't rubbish statements based on source. So I won't dwell on the fact that this is from a Qatari (one of the main anti-Assad actors and sponsors of the insurgency) propaganda outlet . Let's leave that to one side.

    I respect you enough to actually read the story and assess the evidence, and my main issue is that the figures they quote come from 'The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights'. This so called monitoring group happens to be one anti-Assad propagandist living in a council flat in Coventry. He himself provides no sources for any of his extraordinary claims, such as this piece: http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/11/the-russian-air-force-kill-403-civilians-including-166-women-and-children-and-about-7000-civilians-killed-in-13-months-of-airstrikes-carried-out-by-the-regime-air-forces/ - but for some reason his figures are quoted verbatim by the MSM.

    Any source that isn't the punchline to a bad joke?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    edited November 2015

    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
    I do not understand what the problem with the NHS and social care people is. It is easily fixed (for the nhs).
    1. Anyone designated as being capable of release has a 3 working day notice period given to the local authority (LA) where they previously lived.
    2. After that date if still in an NHS bed then the local authority is charged a room rate of I suggest £1,000 a day (non-alz).

    Since the LA can re-home them for outside London under £1,000 a week, then watch the LAs jump to address the problem..... Simples.
    Nothing is ever as simple as that, is it. IIRC (and it's a while since I was involved) the place to which the (ex-) patient is removed must be acceptable to them/their immediate relatives. Relatives can get very bloody-minded in some circumstances. Further,some LA's have lots of beds in their area's; some don't. If anyone wants to re-home me I want to be somewhere where, if I can, I can get myself down/be taken down to the pub I'm used to. Same applies to my wife. She'll want to be somewhere where relatives can visit., Bedford, for example, isn't somewhere I'd wish to be sent.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Ave_it's returned, so it must have been a good day for Labour.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,995

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    My understanding is that, like humans replace every cell in their body during our life, there is no original part of any B52 bomber...
    I'd think that's almost certainly wrong. It'd be almost certainly true for the avionics, and the wings and fuselage were reskinned (I think!). But I doubt much of the structure (e.g. wing spars) have been.

    But I might well be very wrong on that. In which case, it shows the investment these planes need to keep them operating over such a long life.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited November 2015
    Somewhere down thread someone made reference to Mcdonnell and who he reminded him of. I watched the idiot doing the Mao "joke" and suddenly realised who he reminded me of. It was that wee scottish comedian /impersonator STANLEY BAXTER !!!.
  • Options

    Omnium said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    It won't from the Western powers. Russia perhaps was deliberately probing Turkey's willingness to shoot aircraft down, or perhaps the planes stumbled a bit. U2 spyplanes used to get hopelessly lost on training exercises and find themselves over the Soviet Union.

    This was a completely meaningless incident. The next incident's implied peril has gone up though.
    Or Russian 'fishing trawlers'.

    As I've said yesterday and today, there needs to be de-escalation. It's easy enough to find a set of words that would satisfy their domestic audiences without admitting guilt in any form. (I think "regrettable incident" used to be commonly used)

    But it seems Putin, as I expected, may not be wanting to leave it at that.
    Perhaps the Turks should stay out of Syria now and abide by international law? Sounds like Erdogan is starting to back down now, perhaps he should have spoken to Saakashvilli and Poroshenko before listening to those neocons whispering bad advice into his ears.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.
    There comes a point when tech and c&c advances give you a step level advantage over the opposition regardless of force ratios. I was highly sceptical of the force levels the US deployed for the invasion of Iraq but the upgrades since the Gulf War gave them a decisive advantage despite the unfavorable force ratios.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited November 2015
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.
    according to you every major military power has dogshit equipment and is effectively useless.

    hadnt realsied the world was so safe
  • Options
    Re: Ave_it Posts: 687 Labour classic top 40 hit parade!

    O'Jays Backstabbers more appropriate. A better groove.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZciH3hx-A
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.

    Kippers ought to be a 2/1 IMO.
    Hmm. Not so sure.

    A lot depends on wheteher the tories vote kipper - I suspect the tories might not do too badly in the end, though.

    How low do you see the tory vote going?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,995

    Unlike a lot of the more closed-minded folk on PB, I don't rubbish statements based on source. So I won't dwell on the fact that this is from a Qatari (one of the main anti-Assad actors and sponsors of the insurgency) propaganda outlet . Let's leave that to one side.

    I respect you enough to actually read the story and assess the evidence, and my main issue is that the figures they quote come from 'The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights'. This so called monitoring group happens to be one anti-Assad propagandist living in a council flat in Coventry. He himself provides no sources for any of his extraordinary claims, such as this piece: http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/11/the-russian-air-force-kill-403-civilians-including-166-women-and-children-and-about-7000-civilians-killed-in-13-months-of-airstrikes-carried-out-by-the-regime-air-forces/ - but for some reason his figures are quoted verbatim by the MSM.

    Any source that isn't the punchline to a bad joke?

    "I don't rubbish statements based on source."

    ... followed by rubbishing a statement based on source.

    Although you seem to accept the blog of a woman in Australia, or a website belonging to a friend of Assad without comment.

    And why are his claims extraordinary? The civil war's killed tens of thousands and displaced millions.
  • Options

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.
    according to you every major military power has dogshit equipment and is effectively useless.

    hadnt realsied the world was so safe
    Dair thinks Pikes were best.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    Or not make 30% of their casualties civilians.
    Once again, can you provide some evidence for this claim? You keep on making it; I'll keep on asking - it has the potential to get boring.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/hundreds-killed-russian-air-strikes-syria-151029130146883.html

    As I posted last time you asked and then you completely ignored it.
    Al Jazeera is funded by Qatar, which also funds Al Qaeda affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra.

    As the Russians are operating alongside the Iraqi and Syrian governments they have superior intelligence on targets so logically they would likely be inflicting less civilian casualties due to mistakes in targeting. Not quite sure why this is an issue that so excites you, something tells me it is not a concern with civilian deaths.
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    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
  • Options

    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
    I do not understand what the problem with the NHS and social care people is. It is easily fixed (for the nhs).
    1. Anyone designated as being capable of release has a 3 working day notice period given to the local authority (LA) where they previously lived.
    2. After that date if still in an NHS bed then the local authority is charged a room rate of I suggest £1,000 a day (non-alz).

    Since the LA can re-home them for outside London under £1,000 a week, then watch the LAs jump to address the problem..... Simples.
    Nothing is ever as simple as that, is it. IIRC (and it's a while since I was involved) the place to which the (ex-) patient is removed must be acceptable to them/their immediate relatives. Relatives can get very bloody-minded in some circumstances. Further,some LA's have lots of beds in their area's; some don't. If anyone wants to re-home me I want to be somewhere where, if I can, I can get myself down/be taken down to the pub I'm used to. Same applies to my wife. She'll want to be somewhere where relatives can visit., Bedford, for example, isn't somewhere I'd wish to be sent.
    Q: Can a relative choose a hospital?
    A: No.

    So if the doctor says "ready to be released to a "normal care home (not alz)" then off they go. If the relatives want something else then they have to arrange it in the timeframe or events take their course.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
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    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    In fairness to Russian pilots, their entire air force is very old and effectively obsolete.

    Age is not necessarily a problem. After all, the B52H's are well over fifty years old and are the backbone of the US's fleet.

    It's a question of fatigue life, maintenance and avionics updates. The Russians are doing some of this (they're in the process of upgrading their superb Blackjack-M's), but not enough.

    And with all kit, a pound spent on training can be worth ten pounds on kit. Russia's increased tempo (e.g. in long-range aviation) will hopefully have been matched by increased training.

    But they are losing lots of kit.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2015/07/12/russian-fleets-crashing-ukraine-nato-fighter-bomber/29962399/
    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.
    according to you every major military power has dogshit equipment and is effectively useless.

    hadnt realsied the world was so safe
    Dair thinks Pikes were best.
    Don't tell him, though!
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    stodge said:

    Behind this is the desperate need to be popular - anything challenging that popularity is dropped so pensioners are protected and molly-coddled because they vote Conservative. Tax credits are dropped because they are unpopular with Conservative voters not because they are bad policy. As others have argued, with the Opposition in disarray, this is the time to do the unpopular things that need to be done. Osborne (who has his own election in mind) backs away from that and clearing down the deficit in favour of the popular road to nowhere.

    What unalloyed poppycock.

    The changes to tax credits were dropped because, err, the government didn't have the votes to continue with them. You have noticed that the government's majority is only 12, and the Lords is stuffed with Labour and LibDem peers, I suppose?

    As it is, Osborne has made a minor tactical retreat and plans to cover much of the shortfall with a small tax increase on business. (I say 'small' because it's a 0.5% payroll tax on large employers only, compared with the existing 13.8% payroll tax on all employers). The rest of the shortfall is covered by slightly improved projections. No doubt there will be other adjustments in future budgets and autumn statements.

    Meanwhile, the UK continues to be one of the very few economic bright spots in the world.
    That's not actually true. Osborne could have put the tax credit cuts through in a non-Lords vetoable Finance Bill or rammed it through again next year using the Parliament Act.

    Personally, I felt a tapering was in order but not a wholesale abandonment of the policy.

    I am very cross about the Brownian stealth tax rise on business to pay for it.
    The BBC ran a graphic on the cost of repealing the tax credit change.

    In 2016/2017 it was £3.6bn
    In 2019/2020 it was £900m

    A lot of grief for a rapidly diminishing deficit return.

    Somewhere down the line, when the less generous Universal Credit system is in fuller flow, I expect the legacy tax credit system will be nibbled at.

    We still have over a quarter of a million people getting £20,000 a year, tax free, in tax credits and child benefit because they have 4 or more kids. That can't last.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Alistair said:

    Dair said:


    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.

    There comes a point when tech and c&c advances give you a step level advantage over the opposition regardless of force ratios. I was highly sceptical of the force levels the US deployed for the invasion of Iraq but the upgrades since the Gulf War gave them a decisive advantage despite the unfavorable force ratios.
    Yes but that's considering effectiveness in an offensive role. My point would be that the United Kingdom should primarily operate a defensive military and any offensive requirement will only ever be against tin pot dictatorships and insurgents with equipment which cannot compete.

    In any conceivable combat role, our level of military kit is already well beyond what is needed and would continue to be for some decades even without Type 45s, Type 26s and Lightning 2s.

    However, I do see the merit in Jessop's argument for continued expenditure as having some validity.
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    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Stella had success persuading the coalition to tackle the wonga scandals.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    chestnut said:

    stodge said:

    Behind this is the desperate need to be popular - anything challenging that popularity is dropped so pensioners are protected and molly-coddled because they vote Conservative. Tax credits are dropped because they are unpopular with Conservative voters not because they are bad policy. As others have argued, with the Opposition in disarray, this is the time to do the unpopular things that need to be done. Osborne (who has his own election in mind) backs away from that and clearing down the deficit in favour of the popular road to nowhere.

    What unalloyed poppycock.

    The changes to tax credits were dropped because, err, the government didn't have the votes to continue with them. You have noticed that the government's majority is only 12, and the Lords is stuffed with Labour and LibDem peers, I suppose?

    As it is, Osborne has made a minor tactical retreat and plans to cover much of the shortfall with a small tax increase on business. (I say 'small' because it's a 0.5% payroll tax on large employers only, compared with the existing 13.8% payroll tax on all employers). The rest of the shortfall is covered by slightly improved projections. No doubt there will be other adjustments in future budgets and autumn statements.

    Meanwhile, the UK continues to be one of the very few economic bright spots in the world.
    That's not actually true. Osborne could have put the tax credit cuts through in a non-Lords vetoable Finance Bill or rammed it through again next year using the Parliament Act.

    Personally, I felt a tapering was in order but not a wholesale abandonment of the policy.

    I am very cross about the Brownian stealth tax rise on business to pay for it.
    The BBC ran a graphic on the cost of repealing the tax credit change.

    In 2016/2017 it was £3.6bn
    In 2019/2020 it was £900m

    A lot of grief for a rapidly diminishing deficit return.

    Somewhere down the line, when the less generous Universal Credit system is in fuller flow, I expect the legacy tax credit system will be nibbled at.

    We still have over a quarter of a million people getting £20,000 a year, tax free, in tax credits and child benefit because they have 4 or more kids. That can't last.
    Well, no. The kids will grow up! ;)
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Dair said:

    Alistair said:

    Dair said:


    It does appear that the Russian Federation has barely invested in its military hardware for the entire period of its current existence. This leads me to wonder just how effective their military actually is these days and whether the need for such expensive and advanced hardware as Type 45s and Lightning 2s is actually justified.

    There comes a point when tech and c&c advances give you a step level advantage over the opposition regardless of force ratios. I was highly sceptical of the force levels the US deployed for the invasion of Iraq but the upgrades since the Gulf War gave them a decisive advantage despite the unfavorable force ratios.
    Yes but that's considering effectiveness in an offensive role. My point would be that the United Kingdom should primarily operate a defensive military and any offensive requirement will only ever be against tin pot dictatorships and insurgents with equipment which cannot compete.

    In any conceivable combat role, our level of military kit is already well beyond what is needed and would continue to be for some decades even without Type 45s, Type 26s and Lightning 2s.

    However, I do see the merit in Jessop's argument for continued expenditure as having some validity.
    more U turns than George Osborne in that post.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    LondonBob said:

    As the Russians are operating alongside the Iraqi and Syrian governments they have superior intelligence on targets so logically they would likely be inflicting less civilian casualties due to mistakes in targeting.

    Because if there is one thing the Russians are known for it is taking care not to kill civilians in a war zone.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pong said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.

    Kippers ought to be a 2/1 IMO.
    Hmm. Not so sure.

    A lot depends on wheteher the tories vote kipper - I suspect the tories might not do too badly in the end, though.

    How low do you see the tory vote going?
    In this type of constituency it will divide between UKIP and abstentions I think. In a more middle-class seat you'd get some Tories voting Labour to stop UKIP, as happened in Newark for example.
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    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Stella had success persuading the coalition to tackle the wonga scandals.
    What was so bad about Wonga and none of the umpteen other payday loan companies that also charge horrific interest rates?
    I tweeted her at the time asking what made Wonga so bad, but never got a reply.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    OGH clearly the master of political calculation
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    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Stella had success persuading the coalition to tackle the wonga scandals.
    What was so bad about Wonga and none of the umpteen other payday loan companies that also charge horrific interest rates?
    I tweeted her at the time asking what made Wonga so bad, but never got a reply.
    You have no heart.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Is that it? It seems quite nasty and almost personal to me.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,995
    LondonBob said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Speedy said:

    Back to the real world for a bit, the Russians have bombed a Turkish aid convoy in northern Syria:

    Frederike GeerdinkVerified account ‏@fgeerdink 48m48 minutes ago
    reportedly 7 died in #russian bombing of #turkish #aid convoy in #azaz. i don't know what to make of this mess, to be honest.

    Conflict News ‏@Conflicts 55m55 minutes ago
    MORE: Unconfirmed reports of 7 people killed in the attack on an alleged aid convoy in #Azaz - @News_Executive

    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink
    Embedded image permalink

    'Aid' to whom one wonders.
    Let's see if the Russian 'aid' convoys get hit:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian
    Thanks for making my point. 'Aid' can cover a multitude of sins.
    Yes, and you assume the worst. Thanks for proving my point. :)

    Perhaps the Russians should try to check before bombing things, eh? Or have pilots that actually know where international borders are.
    Or not make 30% of their casualties civilians.
    Once again, can you provide some evidence for this claim? You keep on making it; I'll keep on asking - it has the potential to get boring.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/hundreds-killed-russian-air-strikes-syria-151029130146883.html

    As I posted last time you asked and then you completely ignored it.
    Al Jazeera is funded by Qatar, which also funds Al Qaeda affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra.

    As the Russians are operating alongside the Iraqi and Syrian governments they have superior intelligence on targets so logically they would likely be inflicting less civilian casualties due to mistakes in targeting. Not quite sure why this is an issue that so excites you, something tells me it is not a concern with civilian deaths.
    The problem with that is it assumes that they can trust what the Iraqi and Syrian governments tell them about the targets. These regimes may select targets on terms other than good military objectives.

    But the Russians don't care about that. In fact, there is little evidence they care about civilian casualties full stop.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    Interesting developments on the Autumn Statement announcements this evening regarding the figures provided to the Treasury by the Office of Budget Responsibility. It turns out that the revised figures showing better than expected forecast finances may have been known BEFORE the Bill cutting tax credits was defeated in the House of Lords. If that is the case then it reveals that the government would have gone ahead with £4 billion worth of cuts even though they knew that the cuts weren't necessary and more importantly they would be held open to criticism of misleading Parliament

    We are still borrowing more money than any other country in the EU including Greece. The idea that imposing cuts in such a scenario is "misleading Parliament" is frankly bonkers.
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    chestnut said:

    stodge said:

    Behind this is the desperate need to be popular - anything challenging that popularity is dropped so pensioners are protected and molly-coddled because they vote Conservative. Tax credits are dropped because they are unpopular with Conservative voters not because they are bad policy. As others have argued, with the Opposition in disarray, this is the time to do the unpopular things that need to be done. Osborne (who has his own election in mind) backs away from that and clearing down the deficit in favour of the popular road to nowhere.

    What unalloyed poppycock.

    The changes to tax credits were dropped because, err, the government didn't have the votes to continue with them. You have noticed that the government's majority is only 12, and the Lords is stuffed with Labour and LibDem peers, I suppose?

    As it is, Osborne has made a minor tactical retreat and plans to cover much of the shortfall with a small tax increase on business. (I say 'small' because it's a 0.5% payroll tax on large employers only, compared with the existing 13.8% payroll tax on all employers). The rest of the shortfall is covered by slightly improved projections. No doubt there will be other adjustments in future budgets and autumn statements.

    Meanwhile, the UK continues to be one of the very few economic bright spots in the world.
    That's not actually true. Osborne could have put the tax credit cuts through in a non-Lords vetoable Finance Bill or rammed it through again next year using the Parliament Act.

    Personally, I felt a tapering was in order but not a wholesale abandonment of the policy.

    I am very cross about the Brownian stealth tax rise on business to pay for it.
    The BBC ran a graphic on the cost of repealing the tax credit change.

    In 2016/2017 it was £3.6bn
    In 2019/2020 it was £900m

    A lot of grief for a rapidly diminishing deficit return.

    Somewhere down the line, when the less generous Universal Credit system is in fuller flow, I expect the legacy tax credit system will be nibbled at.

    We still have over a quarter of a million people getting £20,000 a year, tax free, in tax credits and child benefit because they have 4 or more kids. That can't last.
    George Osborne thinks today might have got his leadership ambitions back on track. To me, he's compounded his original error.

    I almost certainly won't be voting for him now.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015
    http://order-order.com/2015/11/25/mcdonnell-forced-to-condemn-millions-of-deaths-under-mao/

    He doesn't sound very convincing on his anti-Mao stance. Condemn "all that"...
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015
    Just noticed - NI primary threshold and lower earnings limit frozen.

    More revenue to the exchequer in NI.

    Tax credits and child benefit frozen.

    Inflation will be back in positive territory by January
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Is that it? It seems quite nasty and almost personal to me.
    CR, I said it as a joke
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    Everyone saying Tax Credits will be "dealt with" through Universal Credit later.

    But an important change to Tax Credits IS going ahead.

    From April 2017, Tax Credits WILL be limited to 2 children for all new claimants / new children born after that date.

    Has everyone actually digested this?
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    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Stella had success persuading the coalition to tackle the wonga scandals.
    What was so bad about Wonga and none of the umpteen other payday loan companies that also charge horrific interest rates?
    I tweeted her at the time asking what made Wonga so bad, but never got a reply.
    You have no heart.
    Serious question though.
    I do shift work, so am at home during the day quite often.
    Daytime TV is awash with ads for assorted short term loans all charging eye watering APR's of varying degrees.
    What was so bad about Wonga specifically that caused the very effective campaign that Stella waged?
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Nor do I. She's clearly no Corbynite but she doesn't appear to be on the right of the party and she is an effective spokesperson in the Labour cause.

    Can anyone with inside Labour knowledge elucidate? Is this all a misunderstanding or is she really under threat?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,418

    Unlike a lot of the more closed-minded folk on PB, I don't rubbish statements based on source. So I won't dwell on the fact that this is from a Qatari (one of the main anti-Assad actors and sponsors of the insurgency) propaganda outlet . Let's leave that to one side.

    I respect you enough to actually read the story and assess the evidence, and my main issue is that the figures they quote come from 'The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights'. This so called monitoring group happens to be one anti-Assad propagandist living in a council flat in Coventry. He himself provides no sources for any of his extraordinary claims, such as this piece: http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/11/the-russian-air-force-kill-403-civilians-including-166-women-and-children-and-about-7000-civilians-killed-in-13-months-of-airstrikes-carried-out-by-the-regime-air-forces/ - but for some reason his figures are quoted verbatim by the MSM.

    Any source that isn't the punchline to a bad joke?

    "I don't rubbish statements based on source."

    ... followed by rubbishing a statement based on source.

    Although you seem to accept the blog of a woman in Australia, or a website belonging to a friend of Assad without comment.

    And why are his claims extraordinary? The civil war's killed tens of thousands and displaced millions.
    I refuse to believe you're not bright enough to understand plain English. But I'll bite nonetheless.

    It has nothing to do with source - I've been slated for linking to RT, linking to citizen journalism sites, etc., and told to find a 'proper' source (as it happens, some of the same people have been quite happy to use sites like Bellingcat.org, but the test for a 'good' source seems to be what their line is). But I don't agree with this - it's like saying a Yougov poll showing a Tory lead is invalid because it was commissioned by The Times. That's what you do.

    So therefore I merely noted the source, but went ahead and read the content. If I read a closely argued, evidence supported article, I don't care where it comes from. In this case, the article itself happened to depend on evidence that is:
    -totally and self-confessedly partial and one sided
    -not on the ground
    -not a professional outfit
    -not cross-checked
    That's baloney.



  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    There appear to be genuine calls on Twitter for the return of Ed Miliband...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DMcCaffreySKY: McDonnell PULLS OUT. Organisers tell me "doesn't look like" @JohnMcDonnellMP will now turn up at Walthamstow. Clearly he is busy elsewhere.
  • Options

    MikeK said:
    That's rich considering the Russians have spent most of their time so far bombing the groups that are opposing IS.
    The only groups opposing IS are the Syrian Arab Army, the National Defence Force, Hezbollah, the Kurds and Iranian backed Shia militias. I am not aware that the Russians have ever intentionally bombed them?

    Your concern for groups like Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham is an usual one but I would suggest you never test whether the feeling is mutual.

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/09/httpwwwtelegraphcouknewsworldnewseuroperussia11900853putin-request-for-use-of-russian-troops-in-syria-approved-li.html

    Sure Russia's air campaign has been dictated by military strategy but plenty of IS targets have been hit in East Aleppo (significant gains for the SAA), Raqqa, Deir Ezzor, Palmyra (the SAA have it surrounded on three sides now) and in protecting the Christian city of Sadad, so I don't see what the criticism is?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Scrapping the tax credits cuts is a poor idea. They should have gone ahead with them and just phased them in. I see that the left has now started to bleat about the housing benefits cap, which many have called a landlord's subsidy. What is it with the left and wanting to subsidise all of these private companies and individuals with taxpayer cash? Tax credits are nothing more than a corporate subsidy and housing benefits are nothing more that a subsidy for private buy-to-let landlords. Both need to be abolished or cut down to size sooner rather than later.
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    MrsBMrsB Posts: 574

    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
    I do not understand what the problem with the NHS and social care people is. It is easily fixed (for the nhs).
    1. Anyone designated as being capable of release has a 3 working day notice period given to the local authority (LA) where they previously lived.
    2. After that date if still in an NHS bed then the local authority is charged a room rate of I suggest £1,000 a day (non-alz).

    Since the LA can re-home them for outside London under £1,000 a week, then watch the LAs jump to address the problem..... Simples.
    Far too simplistic an analysis of why people end up bed-blocking. What if the person needs to go into a home but won't? What if they need to go into a home but there are no spaces in any suitable ones nearby? What if they need domiciliary care and no agency can be found to deliver the package they need because they can't recruit any staff?

    These things can be tackled, but it isn't easy. THe Better Care Fund is partially aimed at delayed discharge (and partly at reducing admissions in the first place) but it is taking a while to get going. Because social care stuff has been disjointed before and will continue to be expensive.

    =====================
    As for GO today, I seem to be alone in thinking that McMao (as we will have to call him) wasn't THAT bad given that all his attack lines had been removed from under him by GO, leaving him with almost literally nothing to say.

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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    MikeL said:

    Everyone saying Tax Credits will be "dealt with" through Universal Credit later.

    But an important change to Tax Credits IS going ahead.

    From April 2017, Tax Credits WILL be limited to 2 children for all new claimants / new children born after that date.

    Has everyone actually digested this?

    Indeed.

    It is also a policy that may have significant consequences in a great many policy areas.

    Once people get the message that the taxpayer isn't paying for reproduction, there could be significant cultural knock-ons and reduced demand on many services such as housing, healthcare, education and on certain specific demographics where large families are seen far more commonly.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.

    Kippers ought to be a 2/1 IMO.
    Hmm. Not so sure.

    A lot depends on wheteher the tories vote kipper - I suspect the tories might not do too badly in the end, though.

    How low do you see the tory vote going?
    In this type of constituency it will divide between UKIP and abstentions I think. In a more middle-class seat you'd get some Tories voting Labour to stop UKIP, as happened in Newark for example.
    Northern Tories are pretty resistant to tactical voting. Some will, but not enough. UKIP (and LD) are better targetting the Lab vote directly.
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    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.

    Kippers ought to be a 2/1 IMO.
    Hmm. Not so sure.

    A lot depends on wheteher the tories vote kipper - I suspect the tories might not do too badly in the end, though.

    How low do you see the tory vote going?
    In this type of constituency it will divide between UKIP and abstentions I think. In a more middle-class seat you'd get some Tories voting Labour to stop UKIP, as happened in Newark for example.
    There'd be very few of such Tories IMHO.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I'm also glad that the tax credit cheaters who work only 16 hours per week are not going to be eligible for the new free childcare.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited November 2015


    Serious question though.
    I do shift work, so am at home during the day quite often.
    Daytime TV is awash with ads for assorted short term loans all charging eye watering APR's of varying degrees.
    What was so bad about Wonga specifically that caused the very effective campaign that Stella waged?

    The problem was never with Wonga or pay day lending in general, it was entirely a problem with the Media and the legislation requiring an indicative APR to be stated on all Consumer Credit Act lending.

    Short term lending to those who otherwise have no access to credit, is, in effect a very useful product for a lot of people. In general they borrow £100 and pay back £125 the next month. This is quite comparable with the long established pawnbroking industry, with the benefit of not requiring collateral to be provided.

    The problem with the industry was generally at the margin, where less scrupulous business practises saw loans which weren't repaid on time balloon quickly and where hidden costs were applied (such as a £10 "immediate transfer fee" or "same day payment fee" which is costless) were added on. As far as I'm aware Wonga were not involved in this sort of practise.

    The whole hypocritical face was blatant Virtue Signalling by a metropolitan elite who have likely never had an issue with money and had no understanding of how much better it was for individuals to have access to a pay day loan than to be excluded for any access to credit.

    Certainly for the likes of Stella Creasy, given her family background, it is very unlikely she has ever had a financial issue in her life.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    MaxPB said:

    Scrapping the tax credits cuts is a poor idea. They should have gone ahead with them and just phased them in.

    They are.

    The transition from the tax credit system to universal credit is, to all intents and purposes, the same thing.

    2.3m current tax credit recipients are also effectively on notice that they can't expect any further benefits for more children from April 2017, so by my reckoning they need to get cracking and get all impregnation completed by June 2016. :smiley:
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    Potential by election watch

    Labour MP to face trial accused of attacking woman at independence referendum polling station

    http://bbc.in/1QIyjrw
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    chestnut said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scrapping the tax credits cuts is a poor idea. They should have gone ahead with them and just phased them in.

    They are.

    The transition from the tax credit system to universal credit is, to all intents and purposes, the same thing.

    2.3m current tax credit recipients are also effectively on notice that they can't expect any further benefits for more children from April 2017, so by my reckoning they need to get cracking and get all impregnation completed by June 2016. :smiley:
    Working tax credits are not going to change though, that is the real corporate subsidy for low wages and subsidy for people's lifestyle choice of working part time.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Stella had success persuading the coalition to tackle the wonga scandals.
    What was so bad about Wonga and none of the umpteen other payday loan companies that also charge horrific interest rates?
    I tweeted her at the time asking what made Wonga so bad, but never got a reply.
    I recall reading that Wonga had given money to The Tories.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/loans/9613729/Loan-firms-wonga-buys-the-ears-of-ministers.html

    Could that be their real crime?

    But they have been lending since 2006, odd how Labour didn't stop them in the first place.
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    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: McDonnell PULLS OUT. Organisers tell me "doesn't look like" @JohnMcDonnellMP will now turn up at Walthamstow. Clearly he is busy elsewhere.

    He is currently next door asking for this ball, I mean his little red book back.
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    Scott_P said:

    There appear to be genuine calls on Twitter for the return of Ed Miliband...

    Sure they aren't getting confused between Ed and David?
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    #istandwithcorbyn trending on Twitter. Cos we all know how effective and representative hash tags are.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    #istandwithcorbyn trending on Twitter. Cos we all know how effective and representative hash tags are.

    @rustinpeace00: #WeStandWithCorbyn, because #MilibandMustWin, #ToriesOutNow, #EndAusterityNow, #IDSMustGo, #StopKony and #CameronMustGo didn't go so well.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287

    #istandwithcorbyn trending on Twitter. Cos we all know how effective and representative hash tags are.

    Didn't see that many MPs standing with him during that defence debate, benches looked rather empty.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pong said:

    Over on Betfair, someone is keen to back the kippers in OW&R tonight.

    You can get on labour between 4/11 & 2/5 if you're quick.

    Kippers ought to be a 2/1 IMO.
    Hmm. Not so sure.

    A lot depends on wheteher the tories vote kipper - I suspect the tories might not do too badly in the end, though.

    How low do you see the tory vote going?
    In this type of constituency it will divide between UKIP and abstentions I think. In a more middle-class seat you'd get some Tories voting Labour to stop UKIP, as happened in Newark for example.
    I'm not convinced 2015 tory voters in a constituency like this will now vote ukip though. If they didn't flip kipper in May, why would they now?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MrsB said:

    Chris_A said:

    So everyone is talking about Chairman Mao and PBdotcom. Pretty disastrous autumn statement then.

    In other news Hunt seems to have agreed to arbitration in the Junior doctors dispute.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12016635/Junior-doctors-strike-Government-agrees-to-talks-at-Acas.html
    Probably been leant on. Sure his price must have come in on the "Next cabinet departure" market.
    Sarah Wollaston has meanwhile written this:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12015006/The-seven-day-NHS-is-a-dangerous-obsession-until-we-fix-social-care.html
    I do not understand what the problem with the NHS and social care people is. It is easily fixed (for the nhs).
    1. Anyone designated as being capable of release has a 3 working day notice period given to the local authority (LA) where they previously lived.
    2. After that date if still in an NHS bed then the local authority is charged a room rate of I suggest £1,000 a day (non-alz).

    Since the LA can re-home them for outside London under £1,000 a week, then watch the LAs jump to address the problem..... Simples.
    Far too simplistic an analysis of why people end up bed-blocking. What if the person needs to go into a home but won't? What if they need to go into a home but there are no spaces in any suitable ones nearby? What if they need domiciliary care and no agency can be found to deliver the package they need because they can't recruit any staff?

    These things can be tackled, but it isn't easy. THe Better Care Fund is partially aimed at delayed discharge (and partly at reducing admissions in the first place) but it is taking a while to get going. Because social care stuff has been disjointed before and will continue to be expensive.

    =====================
    As for GO today, I seem to be alone in thinking that McMao (as we will have to call him) wasn't THAT bad given that all his attack lines had been removed from under him by GO, leaving him with almost literally nothing to say.

    Very often the problem is that modifications are needed at the patients own home. Most people want to go to their own home and with suitable adjustments and support can do so. This takes time to sort out, and some families and local authorities are much better at arranging it.

    The patients interests should be paramount. Shunting frail elderly people into homes away from their friends and family for the convenience of the NHS is not the way it should be done. One day this is likely to be you or me.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015
    dr_spyn said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @DMcCaffreySKY: Even though Labour meeting is in her constituency @StellaCreasy tells me she has NOT been invited. Opponents have. https://t.co/6XAmboe8mH

    Is it not a required courtesy to the sitting incumbent MP, to be notified whenever a fellow MP from the same party visits their constituency?
    Not if they are a Tory Scum.

    Ah, so Stella Creasy has the Corbynite black thumb mark against her, soon to be #purged
    What is the problem the Left have with her? I don't understand.
    Insufficiently on message?
    Stella had success persuading the coalition to tackle the wonga scandals.
    What was so bad about Wonga and none of the umpteen other payday loan companies that also charge horrific interest rates?
    I tweeted her at the time asking what made Wonga so bad, but never got a reply.
    I recall reading that Wonga had given money to The Tories.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/loans/9613729/Loan-firms-wonga-buys-the-ears-of-ministers.html

    Could that be their real crime?

    But they have been lending since 2006, odd how Labour didn't stop them in the first place.
    Funny that, bit like News International vs the Mirror.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,995

    I refuse to believe you're not bright enough to understand plain English. But I'll bite nonetheless.

    It has nothing to do with source - I've been slated for linking to RT, linking to citizen journalism sites, etc., and told to find a 'proper' source (as it happens, some of the same people have been quite happy to use sites like Bellingcat.org, but the test for a 'good' source seems to be what their line is). But I don't agree with this - it's like saying a Yougov poll showing a Tory lead is invalid because it was commissioned by The Times. That's what you do.

    So therefore I merely noted the source, but went ahead and read the content. If I read a closely argued, evidence supported article, I don't care where it comes from. In this case, the article itself happened to depend on evidence that is:
    -totally and self-confessedly partial and one sided
    -not on the ground
    -not a professional outfit
    -not cross-checked
    That's baloney.

    I's like to believe that you're such an idiot. But you've sadly provided plenty of evidence otherwise in the past.

    You've linked to stories that exhibit exactly the characteristics you mention above, yet oddly because they match your opinions you put them on here.

    What is a 'professional outfit' on the Internet? 'Partial and one-sided' is also very much in the eye of the observer, and the test can easily be fooled by a good writer. 'Cross checking' is also difficult on the Internet, where many stories on different sites can all link back to the same single source.

    And the source does matter: what do you call a 'proper' source? For instance, a source that is from a small media organisation owned by a friend of Assad's should be treated with a certain amount of criticism if it backs that regime. Yet you failed to mention that.

    You just try to use arbitrary distinctions to rubbish sources you dislike, and forget those distinctions when the sources contain information you like.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    FT headline writer take a bow.

    Mao and my shadow: McDonnell's Great Leap Backwards.
This discussion has been closed.