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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So what happened to the long-term plan, George?

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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Wanderer said:

    stodge said:

    I'll rely on WSC who once said "if Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons". To defeat IS, we have to "make favourable references to" the likes of Russia, Iran and even Assad.

    I understand the point you are making but I think we should be clear where this analogy breaks down. We needed Stalin's help because we were not strong enough to defeat Hitler on our own. The West doesn't *need* help to destroy IS. Western forces could do it unaided in short order. The point is that we don't choose to do that. If we ally with Assad or Iran it's not because we couldn't defeat the enemy without them, it's because allying with them is our preferred way of doing so.
    WSC was making a short-term point ansd the analogy does indeed break down. The big issue, surely, with ISIS is surely that they regard the West (and Russia) as “crusaders” out to destroy them for religious reasons. Same applies to Shia (heathen) Iran. We MUST be allied with, and have clearly on board other Sunni countries, otherwise they can and will continue to portray themselves as maintining the purity of the faith and thereby "doing Allah’s work”.
    What is really sad is that their ideological position is that death isn’t a problem.
    I suspect that those who fought in the Pacific theratre in WWII would have something to say about how you deal with people who would rather die than surrender. As I understand it many Japanese PoW’s didn’t wish to go home, until, IIRC, the Emperor said it was OK to do so. By being PoW’s thjey’d been “dishonoured”.
    The level of violence in Iraq was drastically curtailed when the Sunni militia were brought into the fold - admittedly by the short term throwing around of money - but also by the long term promise of being brought into governmental power structures. al-Maliki's Shia-first governance style then completely banjoed that.
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    Mr Herdson -
    I am sure that if the tax credits had gone through with the usual short term squeals then Osborne would have pocketed the 23 billion and been happy to produce it later down the line.
    As it is he has to take a hit now and let the universal credit soak it up nearer the election.
    But in other respects the extra money for the NHS is a front loading of the 8 billion already promised. Its this 8 billion which is spending the 'windfall'.
    Given the terrorist outrages and the needs for security then the additional spending on special forces seems absolutely essential and not something to complain about. 'Events' are what happen.
    So in short I think your headline is a bit unfair. Certainly if you look at the local authority cuts you will not find many people saying that Osborne is conceding very much.

    I feel confident in predicting that Universal Credit will not soak up anything nearer the election. It has been repeatedly miles behind schedule and I can't see how its IT and other systems will be remotely ready in 3 or so years time to cope with all people on tax credits. According to wikipedia as of this September only 175,000 people are on it.
    I suspect your confidence is misplaced.
    By march all benefit offices will be operating it for straightforward new claims. The full monty trial seems to be working in London.
    And perhaps more importantly the evidence suggest that claimants are finding work more quickly.

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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    edited November 2015
    I better not, it might be deemed a hate crime :-)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892

    taffys said:

    ''Losing Syria would hurt them, but not fatally.''

    ISIS is selling an islamist paradise. A place where adherents are free to exploit, enslave and butcher non-believers. Potentially, millions of them.

    Without this alternative 'lifestyle' being practised somewhere, the appeal will be very much less powerful, to my mind.

    I agree with that, but it will not destroy them, or prevent them from being a threat to us. ISIS are not stupid. Barbarous yes, but not stupid. They will be trying to work out how to 'beat' us as we're trying to work out how to beat them.

    Punch and counter-punch.

    I think can only fully win if we directly confront the ideology, and that requires other Sunni and Shia nations and religious figures around the world to do so as well. That also needs to include al Nusra and al Qaeda in general.

    Now, can anyone tell me how to do that ... ?
    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Vile ideologies exist the world over. There are still Communists, Fascists, racists etc and there will still be Islamists. The difference is that there is no USSR, no Nazi Germany, no CSA and in the future there will be no ISIS either.
    Sorry, I've just realised that I got that wrong: I meant that al Nusra and al Qaeda need to be destroyed as well as ISIS.

    As for your point:I generally agree. But ISIS is (to my mind at least) slightly different.
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    Mr Rod Crosby
    Yes
    Plus
    Home of the first fatal railway accident. (Rainhill?) Was it actually an MP? Huskison (?) rushing to speak to the Duke of Wellington?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like a smorgasbord of brown nosing, shagging, illegal drugs, bullying, sexual harrasment & blackmail.
    And in normal circumstances it would be leading the news.....however, thanks to Seamus Milne's brilliant media operation.....
    Sky is now paying attention, rightly so.

    I loath bullies and this needs a light shone on it.

    If senior tories covered it up they deserved all that's coming.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    MPs should be able to follow their "own judgement" on possible air strikes over Syria, the shadow chancellor has said.

    But we will put huge pressure on them to vote the "right" way.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Mr Rod Crosby
    Yes
    Plus
    Home of the first fatal railway accident. (Rainhill?) Was it actually an MP? Huskison (?) rushing to speak to the Duke of Wellington?

    I mentioned that: world's first notable railway fatality. He was MP for Liverpool.
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    Mr Herdson -
    I am sure that if the tax credits had gone through with the usual short term squeals then Osborne would have pocketed the 23 billion and been happy to produce it later down the line.
    As it is he has to take a hit now and let the universal credit soak it up nearer the election.
    But in other respects the extra money for the NHS is a front loading of the 8 billion already promised. Its this 8 billion which is spending the 'windfall'.
    Given the terrorist outrages and the needs for security then the additional spending on special forces seems absolutely essential and not something to complain about. 'Events' are what happen.
    So in short I think your headline is a bit unfair. Certainly if you look at the local authority cuts you will not find many people saying that Osborne is conceding very much.

    I feel confident in predicting that Universal Credit will not soak up anything nearer the election. It has been repeatedly miles behind schedule and I can't see how its IT and other systems will be remotely ready in 3 or so years time to cope with all people on tax credits. According to wikipedia as of this September only 175,000 people are on it.
    I suspect your confidence is misplaced.
    By march all benefit offices will be operating it for straightforward new claims. The full monty trial seems to be working in London.
    And perhaps more importantly the evidence suggest that claimants are finding work more quickly.

    It's the "straightforward new claims" bit that worries me.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Apparently Oldham JCP is running one of the largest UC beta tests

    Mr Herdson -
    I am sure that if the tax credits had gone through with the usual short term squeals then Osborne would have pocketed the 23 billion and been happy to produce it later down the line.
    As it is he has to take a hit now and let the universal credit soak it up nearer the election.
    But in other respects the extra money for the NHS is a front loading of the 8 billion already promised. Its this 8 billion which is spending the 'windfall'.
    Given the terrorist outrages and the needs for security then the additional spending on special forces seems absolutely essential and not something to complain about. 'Events' are what happen.
    So in short I think your headline is a bit unfair. Certainly if you look at the local authority cuts you will not find many people saying that Osborne is conceding very much.

    I feel confident in predicting that Universal Credit will not soak up anything nearer the election. It has been repeatedly miles behind schedule and I can't see how its IT and other systems will be remotely ready in 3 or so years time to cope with all people on tax credits. According to wikipedia as of this September only 175,000 people are on it.
    I suspect your confidence is misplaced.
    By march all benefit offices will be operating it for straightforward new claims. The full monty trial seems to be working in London.
    And perhaps more importantly the evidence suggest that claimants are finding work more quickly.

    It's the "straightforward new claims" bit that worries me.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    The Grauniad:

    About 330 Isis members killed in RAF airstrikes in past year – MoD

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/17/isis-raf-air-strikes-michael-fallon

    It is not a body-count that matters: It is our capabilty to thwart their actions. Until then we are taming the beast....
    We are are playing at war games , taming no-one, and making more enemies as we go poking our beaks into other countries matters.
    I'll take the first two, but we're not making any more enemies if we were to act in Syria. We're already participating in bombing IS, and in any case given they call the West crusaders, it's pretty clear they'd find some reason to attack us if we left them alone. There are reasons for inaction, or doubting the effectiveness of action proposed, but 'making more enemies' is not one of them in my view - the tendency remains no matter what, it just gets beat down for a time, whether by us or someone else.
    We will be on the losing side till we see sense and join the Russians and help Assad and his real troops, rather than Cameron's fantasy army, to defeat ISIS big time.
    Russians will be helping the Kurds now as well after Turkeys massive blunder so double bonus.
    Why do we need to directly or openly assist Assad if Russia already are? We can directly and openly attack ISIS which indirectly assists Assad while turning a blind eye to Russia assisting him directly. Assuming there is no alternative to him winning I don't see how we lose by doing that.
    Problem is we are only playing at it and we are supporting some of the nutters on the ground, our policies are incoherent.
    Assad is a nutter on the ground as well.
    Best of a bad lot
    No, he is not. Not only did his 'leadership' lead to the civil war, but he used chemical weapons on his own populations, and according to some figures is killing far more civilians than ISIS.

    If we decide to support him because of the concept of "the enemy of our enemy is our friend," we must at least be aware how often that concept leads to unforeseen long-term evil results.
    You are constantly trying to cautiously morally equate the Assad government with ISIS' sick death cult. Thank goodness no-one here is remotely interested.
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    RodCrosby said:

    Mr Rod Crosby
    Yes
    Plus
    Home of the first fatal railway accident. (Rainhill?) Was it actually an MP? Huskison (?) rushing to speak to the Duke of Wellington?

    I mentioned that: world's first notable railway fatality. He was MP for Liverpool.
    Looked twice and missed it!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892
    RodCrosby said:

    O/T I visited Liverpool for the first time yesterday. Railway-wise, did Acton Bridge on the West Coast Main Line to Liverpool Lime Street, plus the "tube" from James Street to Lime Street. Had time to visit Albert Dock on the Mairsey as well :)

    Glad you made it to the home of railways!

    1829: the world's first railway tunnel running under streets (Crown Street tunnel)
    1830: the world's first railway tunnel bored under a city (Wapping tunnel). If reused it will be the oldest used underground rail tunnel in the world and oldest part of any underground metro system, predating the London Underground by 33 years.
    1830: world's first intercity railway (with Manchester)
    1830: world's oldest railway station still in use (Broad Green)
    1830: world's first notable railway fatality
    1830: world's first major railway cutting, still one of the deepest in the world (You passed through this)
    1836: the world's second railway tunnel bored under a city (Lime Street tunnel), and the oldest in the world still in use.
    1848: Southport-Liverpool Railway, now integrated into MerseyRail, making it the oldest section of any urban railway in use in the world.
    1849: largest train-shed in the world at the time (Lime Street station), and the first made from segmented iron arches.
    1886: World's then longest underwater tunnel and First tunnel under a tidal estuary in the world
    1886: Mersey railway. First deep level underground stations in the world, and the first accessed by lifts (including James Street which you visited). This was the world's second purpose designed underground system after London, and, since it didn't employ the "cut-and-cover" method, but was bored out of solid rock, could be viewed as the first true underground.
    1893: First electric overhead railway in the world, first electric multiple units in the world, first automatic signalling and first electric colour light signalling.
    1896: First EMUs in the world to run in an underground station
    1901: First escalator in a (UK or world?) station
    1903: First railway in the world to convert from steam to electric (Mersey railway)
    Home of railways, Mr Crosby? Piffle!

    The first railway tunnel was in Derbyshire, and the only reason Liverpool has those records is because people had incentives to get away from the place as fast as possible. ;)

    (It's actually quite interesting to see *why* the Liverpool and Manchester railway was the first only steam-hauled passenger railway)
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    MP_SE said:
    How does she know they have lived there a decade if they can't speak english?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,580
    I have responded to JC's email. I have told him that we should bomb IS.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Labour close to losing Oldham according to internal polling:
    Labour Party internal polling suggests that it is within 1,000 votes of losing the Oldham by-election to Ukip.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/john-bickley-ukip-candidate-for-oldham-by-election-poses-a-real-threat-to-labours-heartland-a6752266.html
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,580

    MP_SE said:
    How does she know they have lived there a decade if they can't speak english?
    By asking other members of their families I guess.

    Or else she can speak Urdu.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,580
    MP_SE said:

    Labour close to losing Oldham according to internal polling:

    Labour Party internal polling suggests that it is within 1,000 votes of losing the Oldham by-election to Ukip.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/john-bickley-ukip-candidate-for-oldham-by-election-poses-a-real-threat-to-labours-heartland-a6752266.html

    Our candidate is clearly too right wing.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

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    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    Pretty naive comment. When a system is running at about 99% capacity do you not think it needs management? Simply ensuring beds are available needs management.

    When it is spending 130 billion do you not think in needs management.
    How do you think NHS admin costs compare to other countries?
    http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/topics/nhs-reform/mythbusters/nhs-managers

    '' the NHS has a managerial workforce that is one-third the size of that across the economy as a whole''
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902

    I have responded to JC's email. I have told him that we should bomb IS.

    Snap :)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
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    RodCrosby said:

    O/T I visited Liverpool for the first time yesterday. Railway-wise, did Acton Bridge on the West Coast Main Line to Liverpool Lime Street, plus the "tube" from James Street to Lime Street. Had time to visit Albert Dock on the Mairsey as well :)

    Glad you made it to the home of railways!

    1829: the world's first railway tunnel running under streets (Crown Street tunnel)
    1830: the world's first railway tunnel bored under a city (Wapping tunnel). If reused it will be the oldest used underground rail tunnel in the world and oldest part of any underground metro system, predating the London Underground by 33 years.
    1830: world's first intercity railway (with Manchester)
    1830: world's oldest railway station still in use (Broad Green)
    1830: world's first notable railway fatality
    1830: world's first major railway cutting, still one of the deepest in the world (You passed through this)
    1836: the world's second railway tunnel bored under a city (Lime Street tunnel), and the oldest in the world still in use.
    1848: Southport-Liverpool Railway, now integrated into MerseyRail, making it the oldest section of any urban railway in use in the world.
    1849: largest train-shed in the world at the time (Lime Street station), and the first made from segmented iron arches.
    1886: World's then longest underwater tunnel and First tunnel under a tidal estuary in the world
    1886: Mersey railway. First deep level underground stations in the world, and the first accessed by lifts (including James Street which you visited). This was the world's second purpose designed underground system after London, and, since it didn't employ the "cut-and-cover" method, but was bored out of solid rock, could be viewed as the first true underground.
    1893: First electric overhead railway in the world, first electric multiple units in the world, first automatic signalling and first electric colour light signalling.
    1896: First EMUs in the world to run in an underground station
    1901: First escalator in a (UK or world?) station
    1903: First railway in the world to convert from steam to electric (Mersey railway)
    An impressive list, Rod!

    Actually I walked from Lime Street to the waterfront, and only on the way back did it occur to me to venture into James Street station to quickly get to Lime Street for my train back to Birmingham!
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306
    Excellent thread by the way.
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    Murmurs that Shapps is off.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Shapps has resigned, as expected
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    Wanderer said:

    Shapps has resigned, as expected

    What about Michael Green though ?
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Dan Hodges
    Ken Livingstone just told me on @LBC that matters of war and peace should be referred to the Labour NEC.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Scott_P said:

    McMao: decision on Syria should be a free vote. It's above party politics, a fact he's just realised:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34950778

    It can't be a free vote.

    Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, the Government in waiting, doesn't have a view on whether we should go to war?
    But we are not going to war! When are we expecting a formal declaration of war?
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    MP_SE said:
    How does she know they have lived there a decade if they can't speak english?
    Parties have electoral data going back years, it's a massive disadvantage to ukip in terms of tergetting voters.

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    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Then not only would you be wrong but you would be sounding ever so slightly stupid. How do you think that a very highly serviced building such as a hospital stays in operation? Stays clean? Stays warm or cool or delivers medical gasses or keeps its bed lifts working?
    How do you think a hospital ward or clinic knows when and which patient is to be admitted or indeed discharged? How do you think it knows what drugs to order and where from and where to? The list is endless.
    ''If anything, our analysis seems to suggest that the NHS, particularly given the complexity of health care, is under- rather than over-managed.''
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Pulpstar said:

    Wanderer said:

    Shapps has resigned, as expected

    What about Michael Green though ?
    I like this
    https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/670594280046657536
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

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    Wanderer said:

    Shapps has resigned, as expected

    It did seem strange that Shapps had been demoted back in the spring.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    That does sound very reasonable Dr Sox, did Leicester NHS manage to avoid all that daft PFI stuff too ?
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    Dan Hodges
    Ken Livingstone just told me on @LBC that matters of war and peace should be referred to the Labour NEC.

    Look, waging war is a difficult choice- but surely someone has the balls to make it?
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,580
    So the predictions of front bench resignations have proved to be correct.

    Woops - wrong party!
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Then not only would you be wrong but you would be sounding ever so slightly stupid. How do you think that a very highly serviced building such as a hospital stays in operation? Stays clean? Stays warm or cool or delivers medical gasses or keeps its bed lifts working?
    How do you think a hospital ward or clinic knows when and which patient is to be admitted or indeed discharged? How do you think it knows what drugs to order and where from and where to? The list is endless.
    ''If anything, our analysis seems to suggest that the NHS, particularly given the complexity of health care, is under- rather than over-managed.''
    My other half is an NHS manager, so perhaps I'm biased, but my impression is that the NHS is far from over-managed and even quite lean compared with some of the private sector companies I've worked for. However, this doesn't mean it is always *well* managed.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    Internal market place.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    That does sound very reasonable Dr Sox, did Leicester NHS manage to avoid all that daft PFI stuff too ?
    We had one 10 years ago that fell at the final hurdle. It would have been a financial disaster. It has left us with a lot of planning blight. Leicester has 3 hospitals that need to be reduced to 2 sites for both clinical and financial reasons. The cuts to NHS capital in the Autumn statement may make this harder to achieve, and leave us in legacy buildings for another decade or two.
  • Options
    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    McMao: decision on Syria should be a free vote. It's above party politics, a fact he's just realised:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34950778

    It can't be a free vote.

    Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, the Government in waiting, doesn't have a view on whether we should go to war?
    But we are not going to war! When are we expecting a formal declaration of war?
    No-one does them any more. We didn't declare war on Argentina during the Falklands conflict
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's fair to say that IME police HQ managers are very busy - marking each others homework. I'm sure they thought they were under resourced too. Most of the activity was worthy and unnecessary. It had little to do with fighting crime, and a great deal to do with targets and box ticking/arse covering.
    Wanderer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Then not only would you be wrong but you would be sounding ever so slightly stupid. How do you think that a very highly serviced building such as a hospital stays in operation? Stays clean? Stays warm or cool or delivers medical gasses or keeps its bed lifts working?
    How do you think a hospital ward or clinic knows when and which patient is to be admitted or indeed discharged? How do you think it knows what drugs to order and where from and where to? The list is endless.
    ''If anything, our analysis seems to suggest that the NHS, particularly given the complexity of health care, is under- rather than over-managed.''
    My other half is an NHS manager, so perhaps I'm biased, but my impression is that the NHS is far from over-managed and even quite lean compared with some of the private sector companies I've worked for. However, this doesn't mean it is always *well* managed.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
  • Options

    Dan Hodges
    Ken Livingstone just told me on @LBC that matters of war and peace should be referred to the Labour NEC.

    Look, waging war is a difficult choice- but surely someone has the balls to make it?
    Bizarre. The job of an MP is meaningless according to Livingstone then. Well its an interesting insight into how the communist despot wing of the Labour Party thinks and how they would govern.
    People keep talking about possible coups.... But the blatant truth is that the coup has already happened. The labour party has been taken over.
    Anyone heard from Neil Kinnock lately?
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited November 2015
    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892

    No, he is not. Not only did his 'leadership' lead to the civil war, but he used chemical weapons on his own populations, and according to some figures is killing far more civilians than ISIS.

    If we decide to support him because of the concept of "the enemy of our enemy is our friend," we must at least be aware how often that concept leads to unforeseen long-term evil results.

    You are constantly trying to cautiously morally equate the Assad government with ISIS' sick death cult. Thank goodness no-one here is remotely interested.
    You pretend to know what people are 'interested' about on here in the same way you pretend to know the 'will' of the Syrian people.

    I.e. you do not.

    Your defence of Assad is repugnant. Assad has killed more of his own people than ISIS in Syria, caused the civil war, and used chemical weapons on his own people. He has only survived by being a puppet of Iran and Russia.

    No wonder you worship him, however many people he kills.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Are you in deficit out of interest, your trust sounds quite lean and well run to my mind.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Nice. I have witnessed some very very management heavy departments in the NHS.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    Mark Clarke sounds utterly vile. I think Shapps was guilty of misjudging Clark(e?). Responsibility goes up the chain as they say though.
  • Options

    Dan Hodges
    Ken Livingstone just told me on @LBC that matters of war and peace should be referred to the Labour NEC.

    Look, waging war is a difficult choice- but surely someone has the balls to make it?
    Bizarre. The job of an MP is meaningless according to Livingstone then. Well its an interesting insight into how the communist despot wing of the Labour Party thinks and how they would govern.
    People keep talking about possible coups.... But the blatant truth is that the coup has already happened. The labour party has been taken over.
    Anyone heard from Neil Kinnock lately?
    So Corbyn's putting to the people, the people delegate it to Corbyn, who asks the shadow cabinet, a member of which suggests they ask the NEC!
  • Options

    No, he is not. Not only did his 'leadership' lead to the civil war, but he used chemical weapons on his own populations, and according to some figures is killing far more civilians than ISIS.

    If we decide to support him because of the concept of "the enemy of our enemy is our friend," we must at least be aware how often that concept leads to unforeseen long-term evil results.

    You are constantly trying to cautiously morally equate the Assad government with ISIS' sick death cult. Thank goodness no-one here is remotely interested.
    You pretend to know what people are 'interested' about on here in the same way you pretend to know the 'will' of the Syrian people.

    I.e. you do not.

    Your defence of Assad is repugnant. Assad has killed more of his own people than ISIS in Syria, caused the civil war, and used chemical weapons on his own people. He has only survived by being a puppet of Iran and Russia.

    No wonder you worship him, however many people he kills.
    Hear hear
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Are you in deficit out of interest, your trust sounds quite lean and well run to my mind.
    We are projecting a £40 million deficit this year. In percentage terms that is quite good compared to similar Trusts. We have an excellent CEO and SMT, who communicate well and have pretty sensible ideas (mostly!)
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Passy the Parcel was a favourite of mine.

    Dan Hodges
    Ken Livingstone just told me on @LBC that matters of war and peace should be referred to the Labour NEC.

    Look, waging war is a difficult choice- but surely someone has the balls to make it?
    Bizarre. The job of an MP is meaningless according to Livingstone then. Well its an interesting insight into how the communist despot wing of the Labour Party thinks and how they would govern.
    People keep talking about possible coups.... But the blatant truth is that the coup has already happened. The labour party has been taken over.
    Anyone heard from Neil Kinnock lately?
    So Corbyn's putting to the people, the people delegate it to Corbyn, who asks the shadow cabinet, a member of which suggests they ask the NEC!
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892
    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    I made this point a while back.

    I also said that (whatever Nick Palmer says otherwise) the same sort of thing will be rife in other parties. For instance either the Rennard scandal or the Falkirk scandal could have led to more serious personal consequences.

    The important thing is for allegations to be investigated thoroughly and fairly to both parties, and then any appropriate actions taken. Such actions can be warnings, a little 'education', suspension, or reporting to the police. Any allegations and the consequent actions should be recorded.

    Sadly, it seems that neither Labour, the Lib Dems or the Conservatives do this, at least for 'important' people.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    I have responded to JC's email. I have told him that we should bomb IS.

    These responses will help with the subsequent purge....
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892
    Shapps going is quite a big story. The question is whether it will soon be drowned out by Labour's problems, or whether it will drown them out.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Shapps always came across as a pretty obnoxious human being - in no way to be trusted. It reflects badly on Cameron that he ever appointed such slime.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Are you in deficit out of interest, your trust sounds quite lean and well run to my mind.
    We are projecting a £40 million deficit this year. In percentage terms that is quite good compared to similar Trusts. We have an excellent CEO and SMT, who communicate well and have pretty sensible ideas (mostly!)
    And there we have it, a £40m deficit and the CEO is excellent.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Are you in deficit out of interest, your trust sounds quite lean and well run to my mind.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-01-03/frances-health-care-system-is-going-broke
    http://www.thelocal.fr/20150617/can-france-creaking-health-service-remain-number-one
    http://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/01/france-to-cut-welfare-in-63b-savings-plan.html
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    OT this is rather fun

    Yahoo's prematurely published Rihanna record review is a masterpiece of post-modern non-journalism. https://t.co/eZl6TACjyi
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,919
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    The internal market that drives a lot of that. Back to Dave and the complaints about library closures in Witney.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Anorak said:

    Japan to continue whaling in defiance of ICJ ruling. Wankers.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34952538

    I'd use a stronger term. And stop buying Japanese goods.
  • Options

    Passy the Parcel was a favourite of mine.

    Dan Hodges
    Ken Livingstone just told me on @LBC that matters of war and peace should be referred to the Labour NEC.

    Look, waging war is a difficult choice- but surely someone has the balls to make it?
    Bizarre. The job of an MP is meaningless according to Livingstone then. Well its an interesting insight into how the communist despot wing of the Labour Party thinks and how they would govern.
    People keep talking about possible coups.... But the blatant truth is that the coup has already happened. The labour party has been taken over.
    Anyone heard from Neil Kinnock lately?
    So Corbyn's putting to the people, the people delegate it to Corbyn, who asks the shadow cabinet, a member of which suggests they ask the NEC!
    Corbyn should take a lesson from Truman:

    http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intel/2012/10/16/16-truman.w529.h352.jpg
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    Mark Clarke sounds utterly vile. I think Shapps was guilty of misjudging Clark(e?). Responsibility goes up the chain as they say though.
    There are more people involved that just Clarke and Shapps. Someone was leaking the names of those who complained about Clarke back to him. A token resignation is not enough. Corporate investigators need to be brought in to get to the bottom of this as emails and letters "cannot be located".
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Alistair said:

    So Cameron says he has 'full confidence' in Schapps.

    Is that a "full backing of the board vote of confidence" or does he actually stand by his man?

    Full confidence to be a liability to the Party most likely. Cameron had such full confidence in him after the Party got a majority in May that he was moved from Co-Chairman to a lowly Minister of State at DID.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Need a new job, Grant?

    I know a great scheme that can make you "a ton of cash by Christmas!"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    I made this point a while back.

    I also said that (whatever Nick Palmer says otherwise) the same sort of thing will be rife in other parties. For instance either the Rennard scandal or the Falkirk scandal could have led to more serious personal consequences.

    The important thing is for allegations to be investigated thoroughly and fairly to both parties, and then any appropriate actions taken. Such actions can be warnings, a little 'education', suspension, or reporting to the police. Any allegations and the consequent actions should be recorded.

    Sadly, it seems that neither Labour, the Lib Dems or the Conservatives do this, at least for 'important' people.
    I think that you are correct. Organisations like the media or politics where ambition meets a cultivation of patronage are wide open to bullying, sexual harrassment and abuse of position. They need particularly careful management of people and strong ethical observance. Sadly they often have neither.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892

    Anorak said:

    Japan to continue whaling in defiance of ICJ ruling. Wankers.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34952538

    I'd use a stronger term. And stop buying Japanese goods.
    I once had a dinner with a Japanese client and a couple of my bosses. Suddenly he asked me what I felt of whaling. I blurted out that I was against it.

    He just raised his eyebrows and changed the subject. It was never mentioned again. I have no idea why he asked it, or if it did the company any good or harm.

    Although knowing the guy a little, a solid yes or no answer would have impressed him more than some sort of waffling inconclusive answer. After all, it's a topic where it's hard to find a middle ground.
  • Options

    Anorak said:

    Japan to continue whaling in defiance of ICJ ruling. Wankers.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34952538

    I'd use a stronger term. And stop buying Japanese goods.
    So every company in Japan is complicit?
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Pong said:

    Need a new job, Grant?

    I know a great scheme that can make you "a ton of cash by Christmas!"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp

    Clearly he is not cut out to be an MP. Perhaps a career in selling used cars would be more appropriate for him.
  • Options

    After all, it's a topic where it's hard to find a middle ground.

    I take a compromise position on this and only eat whale if it's free-range.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    Mark Clarke sounds utterly vile. I think Shapps was guilty of misjudging Clark(e?). Responsibility goes up the chain as they say though.
    Two of a kind I would think.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2015
    MP_SE said:

    Pong said:

    Need a new job, Grant?

    I know a great scheme that can make you "a ton of cash by Christmas!"

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had-second-job-as-millioniare-web-marketer-while-mp

    Clearly he is not cut out to be an MP. Perhaps a career in selling used cars would be more appropriate for him.
    Yeah, sounds about right. Anything that involves marketing to the desperate and the gullible.

    Hearing aid salesman perhaps?

    I will at least give him credit for resigning from his unpaid temp job at DFID. It was probably a let down when he discovered he didn't get to have his very own private plane.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,892

    After all, it's a topic where it's hard to find a middle ground.

    I take a compromise position on this and only eat whale if it's free-range.
    When I was a teenager I helped build a fish farm (in a factory in Derbyshire!). It was quite an enjoyable few summer weeks. If I'd built a Cetacean Farm would I have had a whale of a time?

    Edit: I don't think that joke was very finny. I attempted to scale the heights of humour, but got swamped. It was so bad I think I might blubber ...
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,919
    justin124 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    Mark Clarke sounds utterly vile. I think Shapps was guilty of misjudging Clark(e?). Responsibility goes up the chain as they say though.
    Two of a kind I would think.
    Three, surely. You’re forgetting “Green”
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    The internal market that drives a lot of that. Back to Dave and the complaints about library closures in Witney.
    NHS management numbers in 2014 were the lowest since 2004.
    In 2014 there were 1.388 million staff employed by the NHS. This is lower than when the coalition took over. NHS numbers rose significantly under Labour. I think however doctors and nurses have gone up.
    http://www.nhsemployers.org/news/2015/07/the-nhs-workforce-in-numbers
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    edited November 2015
    Anorak said:

    Japan to continue whaling in defiance of ICJ ruling. Wankers.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34952538

    The amazing thing about it is that they altered their "research" plan rather than just leaving the IWC. They've been completely shafted: They joined what was supposed to be a conservation / fisheries (mammalaries?) management program designed to prevent species from becoming extinct and make sure there were enough to catch, and a bunch foreign governments, all of which engage in all kinds of animal cruelty but of animals other than whales, decided that they didn't want any whaling to happen at all and refused to agree to restore a reasonable quota in species whose numbers had recovered.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Are you in deficit out of interest, your trust sounds quite lean and well run to my mind.
    We are projecting a £40 million deficit this year. In percentage terms that is quite good compared to similar Trusts. We have an excellent CEO and SMT, who communicate well and have pretty sensible ideas (mostly!)
    And there we have it, a £40m deficit and the CEO is excellent.
    Grow up
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,919
    On whaling a recent trip to Iceland left us somewhat puzzled. After the whale watching trip we bought we wwere given a short talk where the company asked us NOT to eat whale or patronise restuarants where whale meat was on the menu.
    However, that seemed to rule out many if not most of the restuarants!

    Apparently whale is traditionally eaten there, but only as a result of whales becoming beached.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Mr Herdson -
    I am sure that if the tax credits had gone through with the usual short term squeals then Osborne would have pocketed the 23 billion and been happy to produce it later down the line.
    As it is he has to take a hit now and let the universal credit soak it up nearer the election.
    But in other respects the extra money for the NHS is a front loading of the 8 billion already promised. Its this 8 billion which is spending the 'windfall'.
    Given the terrorist outrages and the needs for security then the additional spending on special forces seems absolutely essential and not something to complain about. 'Events' are what happen.
    So in short I think your headline is a bit unfair. Certainly if you look at the local authority cuts you will not find many people saying that Osborne is conceding very much.

    I feel confident in predicting that Universal Credit will not soak up anything nearer the election. It has been repeatedly miles behind schedule and I can't see how its IT and other systems will be remotely ready in 3 or so years time to cope with all people on tax credits. According to wikipedia as of this September only 175,000 people are on it.
    I suspect your confidence is misplaced.
    By march all benefit offices will be operating it for straightforward new claims. The full monty trial seems to be working in London.
    And perhaps more importantly the evidence suggest that claimants are finding work more quickly.

    It's the "straightforward new claims" bit that worries me.
    It's the same implementation model they ran in the late 1980s and early 1990s for legacy systems that are still running 25 years later.

    Trying to 'big bang' these systems is usually a disaster. Incremental implementation usually works better.

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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,919

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    The internal market that drives a lot of that. Back to Dave and the complaints about library closures in Witney.
    NHS management numbers in 2014 were the lowest since 2004.
    In 2014 there were 1.388 million staff employed by the NHS. This is lower than when the coalition took over. NHS numbers rose significantly under Labour. I think however doctors and nurses have gone up.
    http://www.nhsemployers.org/news/2015/07/the-nhs-workforce-in-numbers
    Some of the reduction, I suggest, is due to public health activities being hived off to local authoritues.
    I suspect there was also some redefining of job descriptions so that a senior clinical person, previously described as a “manager” is now described by their profession.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Jonathan said:

    The cosmic clusterfuck going on in Labour is definitely obscuring early signs of decay in the Tory party.

    I think you are being kind to call it a cosmic clusterfuck, it is much worse than that :-)
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    Shapps going is quite a big story. The question is whether it will soon be drowned out by Labour's problems, or whether it will drown them out.

    At least he's done the honourable thing: taken responsibility, and fallen on his sword.

    I was yet to clock any bow-wave of demands for him to resign (although perhaps they were about to come) so it's decent of him to do it.

    Of course, none of that excuses the fact he brought Mark Clarke back inside the tent in the first place, but, to quote Richard Attenborough in Jurassic Park: "I don't blame people for their mistakes, but I do expect them to pay for them."
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    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    Although I'm usually not one to complain about a Tory in-house scandal, I'm a bit uncomfortable that this Tory activist is being solely blamed for this poor young man's suicide, on the basis of the chap's suicide note.

    Someone in that state of mind would not be rationalising things well.

    Mark Clarke sounds utterly vile. I think Shapps was guilty of misjudging Clark(e?). Responsibility goes up the chain as they say though.
    I for once have a slight shred of sympathy with 565s comment. However the dickhead Clarke should have some sense of responsibility as well and if (if, because I do not know the full facts) he has been picking on someone because it was easy and was vulnerable then he deserves some punishment himself.
    Frankly I regard the tory party as being about something more important than an opportunity for an outlet for bullies. We hear other stories from other parties but the tories should be better. The sad fact is that lots of organisations attract that sort of knob end and we should be ready to give them short shrift.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'd love to know what NHS managers actually do. I mean it's not like you need to chase any customers, besides HR, IT, accounting and perhaps some budgets what is there to do ?

    With the internal market and bidding process they do indeed need to chase customers, contracts, submit business development bids. Then there is managing waiting lists, producing reports on waiting lists, CQC inspections, answering complaints, risk assessments, scheduling of staff, appraisals and sickness reviews, coding of procedures etc etc to name just a few.

    A lot of it is administrative rather than managerial, but they do blend into each other. Most of the non-clinical NHS staff are secretaries, receptionists, estates, medical records clerks etc.

    Looks to me like the NHS has had a tremendous amount of mission creep beyond actually treating sick people.
    Arguably the internal market is unnessecary, but the rest all has to do with treating sick people!

    My dept has a budget of £22 million, 250 staff and 120 patient admissions per week. We have 2 managers: one band 8a (£45 000 pa) and a deputy on band 6 (£30 000 pa). Seems quite reasonable to me, perhaps even rather undermanaged.

    No 8d general manager and 8a deputy general manager?
    Neither of those.
    Are you in deficit out of interest, your trust sounds quite lean and well run to my mind.
    We are projecting a £40 million deficit this year. In percentage terms that is quite good compared to similar Trusts. We have an excellent CEO and SMT, who communicate well and have pretty sensible ideas (mostly!)
    And there we have it, a £40m deficit and the CEO is excellent.
    Grow up
    Really? I find what you posted astonishing.
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    "The photographs displayed those smug Tory front-bench grins which make even me want to vote Labour."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/12021539/Those-smug-Tory-front-bench-grins-made-even-me-want-to-vote-Labour.html

    I agree with Charles. The behaviour of Conservative politicians is the most unattractive thing about the whole party.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited November 2015

    I have responded to JC's email. I have told him that we should bomb IS.

    These responses will help with the subsequent purge....
    A shame we won't be hearing from 'Sandy from Southend' in the commons.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    On whaling a recent trip to Iceland left us somewhat puzzled. After the whale watching trip we bought we wwere given a short talk where the company asked us NOT to eat whale or patronise restuarants where whale meat was on the menu.
    However, that seemed to rule out many if not most of the restuarants!

    Apparently whale is traditionally eaten there, but only as a result of whales becoming beached.

    I was told last year that only 2% of Icelanders eat whale. It is mostly consumed by curious tourists. (Not myself or the Good Lady Wifi I hasten to add....)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Anorak said:

    Japan to continue whaling in defiance of ICJ ruling. Wankers.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34952538

    The amazing thing about it is that they altered their "research" plan rather than just leaving the IWC. They've been completely shafted: They joined what was supposed to be a conservation / fisheries (mammalaries?) management program designed to prevent species from becoming extinct and make sure there were enough to catch, and a bunch foreign governments, all of which engage in all kinds of animal cruelty but of animals other than whales, decided that they didn't want any whaling to happen at all and refused to agree to restore a reasonable quota in species whose numbers had recovered.
    I have heard it said by Japanese that they consider Minke whales "the rats of the seas". I have a strange desire to use explosive-tipped harpoons on people who express such views.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306

    No, he is not. Not only did his 'leadership' lead to the civil war, but he used chemical weapons on his own populations, and according to some figures is killing far more civilians than ISIS.

    If we decide to support him because of the concept of "the enemy of our enemy is our friend," we must at least be aware how often that concept leads to unforeseen long-term evil results.

    You are constantly trying to cautiously morally equate the Assad government with ISIS' sick death cult. Thank goodness no-one here is remotely interested.
    You pretend to know what people are 'interested' about on here in the same way you pretend to know the 'will' of the Syrian people.

    I.e. you do not.

    Your defence of Assad is repugnant. Assad has killed more of his own people than ISIS in Syria, caused the civil war, and used chemical weapons on his own people. He has only survived by being a puppet of Iran and Russia.

    No wonder you worship him, however many people he kills.
    You forgot to add barrel bombs in your list of meaningless sound-bites. - tut tut, you mustn't forget the barrel bombs.
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    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    McMao: decision on Syria should be a free vote. It's above party politics, a fact he's just realised:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34950778

    It can't be a free vote.

    Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, the Government in waiting, doesn't have a view on whether we should go to war?
    But we are not going to war! When are we expecting a formal declaration of war?
    ISI have formally declared war so said the Guardian in 2014
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/29/isis-iraq-caliphate-delcaration-war
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    Good afternoon, everyone.

    A few surprises in qualifying. I'll set about writing the pre-race piece then see whether the markets are awake enough for anything to tempt.
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    "The photographs displayed those smug Tory front-bench grins which make even me want to vote Labour."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/12021539/Those-smug-Tory-front-bench-grins-made-even-me-want-to-vote-Labour.html

    I agree with Charles. The behaviour of Conservative politicians is the most unattractive thing about the whole party.

    Come off it. And they are not smug grins, they are guffaws at outright laughter - because the shadow chancellor is quoting Chairman Mao.
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    Anorak said:

    Japan to continue whaling in defiance of ICJ ruling. Wankers.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34952538

    The amazing thing about it is that they altered their "research" plan rather than just leaving the IWC. They've been completely shafted: They joined what was supposed to be a conservation / fisheries (mammalaries?) management program designed to prevent species from becoming extinct and make sure there were enough to catch, and a bunch foreign governments, all of which engage in all kinds of animal cruelty but of animals other than whales, decided that they didn't want any whaling to happen at all and refused to agree to restore a reasonable quota in species whose numbers had recovered.
    I have heard it said by Japanese that they consider Minke whales "the rats of the seas". I have a strange desire to use explosive-tipped harpoons on people who express such views.
    They're quite tasty, though
This discussion has been closed.