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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tory bullying scandal claims the scalp of ex-party chai

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,762

    Miss Plato, aye, that often seems the way. More women actually try to commit suicide, but they tend to do it in ways that mean they can be caught or stopped. Men are more likely to actually either go through with it rather than backing away, or to do it in a way that's harder to prevent.</blockqurather

    Men tend to hang or shoot themselves, women take overdoses.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited November 2015
    SF..It is going to have to be something spectacular to top the Little Red Book..from the mass killer Mao...plus support for the IRA bombers..Livingstone's sympathy for the 7/7 bombers...poor things...and Chairman Corbyns communist sympathies
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,743
    edited November 2015

    That reminds me of @SeanT and his patois posts that were exceptionally funny, haven't seen one of them in years<</p>

    See www.whoohoo.co.uk. I suggest it is used when communicating with all Nat posters on PB.
    Good job you didn't write 'all Nit posters' or else I'd have you down as just another petty Little Englander.
    Actually I meant to write "Nit" but I was apparently saved by the spellchecker. But at least you know who you are ;-)
    Strange, 'Nit' did appear briefly on here.
    Must be a super-dooper spell checker that retrospectively edits your posts.

    In any case, good that you peu d'Anglais know who you are also.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    This has 10k shares so far. Mail readers aren't crying any tears here.
    Dramatic footage has emerged online showing a suspected ISIS fighter crying after he was taken prisoner by Kurdish forces in Iraq.

    The prisoner does not appear to have any noticeable injuries as he seats in the back of the armoured truck.

    Much to the amusement of the Kurdish forces, the prisoner cries and moans loudly as he waits to be taken away.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337295/Not-tough-ISIS-fighter-cries-like-baby-captured-Kurdish-forces.html#ixzz3soUndaHk
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    This will take the media pressure of Corbyn for a day or so. Then we are back to square one. Which is a problem for PB Tories 4 Corbyn.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,762

    I hope this does not upset anyone, but I feel it needs saying:

    Whilst I regret his death and sympathise with his family and friends, can I just say that the way the poor man chose to end his life was utterly selfish.

    I've known drivers and others who have been deeply affected by suicides on the tracks and their aftermath. It can stay with them forever. It is not just drivers: someone described picking up body parts and tissue from the undercarriage of a train; another finding belongings of a suicide some days afterwards. Even that, he said, had been upsetting.

    http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/saving-lives-railway/suicide-and-railways

    In some cases, such as Ufton Nervert or Glendale, on-track suicides can kill others.

    I doubt if he was thinking rationally at that point. I would be deterred by the thought of botching the job, and being left terribly crippled. But, yes, I hope I'd have enough sense to cause as little distress as possible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2015
    Trump 'Hillary should be in jail, we're going to make America great again I love you!' close (Along with a castigation of spineless Republicans in Washington and a promise to rebuild the military and ensure Mexico and China treat the US with respect)
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Sean_F said:

    I think the damage is limited because he has gone. It would have been far more damaging to Schapps to have tried to tough it out. CCHQ told him he had to go and he went.

    Move on.

    It depends what else emerges.
    There is almost certainly more to emerge and more resignations to come. The police are now involved so this story is not going to disappear.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    By threatening deselection of MPs who do not toe the Party line is bullying in the extreme...Corbyn is threatening to take their jobs.. how bad is that on the bullying scale

    how many Labour mp's driven to suicide?

    Personally I think all parties have bullying in, why is it tolerated / hidden?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955

    This has 10k shares so far. Mail readers aren't crying any tears here.

    Dramatic footage has emerged online showing a suspected ISIS fighter crying after he was taken prisoner by Kurdish forces in Iraq.

    The prisoner does not appear to have any noticeable injuries as he seats in the back of the armoured truck.

    Much to the amusement of the Kurdish forces, the prisoner cries and moans loudly as he waits to be taken away.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337295/Not-tough-ISIS-fighter-cries-like-baby-captured-Kurdish-forces.html#ixzz3soUndaHk
    I have heard stories of how some of the IRAs so-called hard men would piss and shit themselves when taken into custody.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2015
    Some of Blair's biggest mistakes were made when the Tories were feuding over whether or not to get rid of IDS and weren't able to provide meaningful opposition.

    As long as Corbyn and his mates lead Labour and NickP and his fellow members remain perfectly happy - delighted, in fact - to have apologists for terrorism and murder in charge of their party there is literally nothing the Tories can say or do that will lead to them losing power. It is increasingly clear that this is not going to be good for either the country or the Tories. Without a competent opposition it is much harder to get good government.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Floater..fortunately none..at the moment...but the discussion was about bullying..not suicide..
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The SWP being particularly vile

    http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-depravity-of-swp.html
    Depravity is a strong word, but what else can describe the the latest batch of revelations regarding the SWP/Delta alleged rape case? Going through the document one is confronted with the complete indifference, the arrogance, and the bullying the alleged victim, 'Comrade W', and her supporters faced. There are many unpleasantries, but for me the below set of incidences struck me as especially appalling:
    Floater said:

    By threatening deselection of MPs who do not toe the Party line is bullying in the extreme...Corbyn is threatening to take their jobs.. how bad is that on the bullying scale

    how many Labour mp's driven to suicide?

    Personally I think all parties have bullying in, why is it tolerated / hidden?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    I don't think this has been posted yet: Shapp's resignation letter.

    http://order-order.com/2015/11/28/read-shapps-resignation-letter-in-full/
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited November 2015
    Floater said:

    By threatening deselection of MPs who do not toe the Party line is bullying in the extreme...Corbyn is threatening to take their jobs.. how bad is that on the bullying scale

    how many Labour mp's driven to suicide?

    Personally I think all parties have bullying in, why is it tolerated / hidden?
    A number of the Labour MPs have mental illness. All this stress and abuse could tip one over the edge. One in particular is pushing himself forward far too much.
  • This has 10k shares so far. Mail readers aren't crying any tears here.

    Dramatic footage has emerged online showing a suspected ISIS fighter crying after he was taken prisoner by Kurdish forces in Iraq.

    The prisoner does not appear to have any noticeable injuries as he seats in the back of the armoured truck.

    Much to the amusement of the Kurdish forces, the prisoner cries and moans loudly as he waits to be taken away.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337295/Not-tough-ISIS-fighter-cries-like-baby-captured-Kurdish-forces.html#ixzz3soUndaHk
    I have heard stories of how some of the IRAs so-called hard men would piss and shit themselves when taken into custody.

    Before the Hunger Strikes they even smeared shit on their prison cell walls.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2015
    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

    He never shuts up, does he.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

    Now, about the longevity of that story of bullying in the Tory Party....? Labour seem determined to make their own internicine warfare the only story in domestic politics.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    ScottP..that has got to be a spoof...if not then Shapps resignation is off the front pages..
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Danczuk and Kendall? They aren't the problem. If only McMao and Ken would learn to STFU for a day or two.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

    Well they are.
    Why should western troops go into a military adventure in the middle east to only provide propaganda value for islamists fighting them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Nasty behaviour by Labour's right? You are aware of the nastiness by the Corbynites and some Labour supporters on here? Remember BWP? I mean, Ken Livingstone alone has more nastiness in one fingernail than most of the people you mention.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Give me a break - when did Liz last say something? And Simon has been schutm for days.

    Why not name Hilary Benn or Caroline Flint or whomever. What a ridiculous line of argument.

    Perhaps if Ken, Len, McIRA and Jezza shut up - you'd have a point.
    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Floater said:

    By threatening deselection of MPs who do not toe the Party line is bullying in the extreme...Corbyn is threatening to take their jobs.. how bad is that on the bullying scale

    how many Labour mp's driven to suicide?

    Personally I think all parties have bullying in, why is it tolerated / hidden?
    A number of the Labour MPs have mental illness. All this stress and abuse could tip one over the edge. One in particular is pushing himself forward far too much.
    "Stay classy", as they say.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    I would like to comment re the issue of the "selfishness" of those who commit suicide by jumping in front of a train, discussed downthread.

    I understand why Mr J made the comments he did but I think he underestimates the nature of some mental illnesses which cause people to behave in such a way. They are not acting rationally, are often in great distress and, in some cases, may even be quite incapable of doing even the simplest action. To describe someone as selfish when they are in the grip of a mental illness and incapable of acting rationally is not, I think, a sensible or fair assessment.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    He's got carte blanche - his BFF gave him a job, he's got no voters to answer to and knows he can say what he likes after the Kevan business - go way OTT and mouth a non-apology
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

    He never shuts up, does he.
  • Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    SO this is the "nicer,kinder" politics?

    No wonder people think some party activists are unpleasant or paranoid ..

    Makes some UKIPPers seem sane:-)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2015
    Think this scandal is dangerous for the Tories, as it is both the left e.g Newsnight and the right Staines, going for this story in a big way and they have been building it up over a number of weeks. They have got Mr Green (who was damaged anyway), but it is clear they want to make it go wider than this. Seems a pretty nasty story all round.

    In comparison, Ken saying nasty stuff, well thats Ken being Ken, its factored in. Here today, forgotten tomorrow (unfortunately).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG


    Well maybe he and Corbyn should go instead. No-one - well, no-one in the Middle East, anyway, especially given Corbyn's links and Ken's emotionally intelligent and nuanced understanding of what drove those 4 young men to "give their lives" in 2005 - could possibly think them "discredited". After all Corbyn's always saying that dialogue is needed, that wars are only ever ended through talking and he has said that he would be prepared to talk to "anyone".

    So they should definitely go. Far better it be them than the "discredited" army.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    But we should look to countries like China. I think China would jump at the opportunity to be involved because it would bring them on to the global stage. They have got millions of troops.
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2015

    But we should look to countries like China. I think China would jump at the opportunity to be involved because it would bring them on to the global stage. They have got millions of troops.
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG



    China have zero interest outside of their own little bubble of getting involved directly in anything when it comes to conflicts. They do however have their own Islamist problem and it is growing. That is the only thing that might encourage them.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Give me a break - when did Liz last say something? And Simon has been schutm for days.

    Why not name Hilary Benn or Caroline Flint or whomever. What a ridiculous line of argument.

    Perhaps if Ken, Len, McIRA and Jezza shut up - you'd have a point.

    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Who do you think are those unnamed "senior" Labour MP's who are constantly bitching then from even before the leadership election even happened?

    If they would only shut up they wouldn't have framed everything as a sore losers battle, everytime they open their mouths against the party I get more angry with them, and I end up supporting Corbyn more and more simply because those nasties oppose him.

    As you know I started as an Yvette Cooper supporter and look where those nasties drove me.

    It's time to expel them, they even revised my opinion that the SDP splitting was a good thing for Labour, imagine having David Owen constantly bitching about the Labour leadership from within the party.
    To paraphrase an expression " It's better to have those outside of the tent pissing in, rather that in the tent pissing in."
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited November 2015
    I was wondering what Ken after the McMao debacle was thinking of when advocating China getting involved...

    It's beyond bizarre.

    This was another wrong week to give up sniffing glue and LSD

    But we should look to countries like China. I think China would jump at the opportunity to be involved because it would bring them on to the global stage. They have got millions of troops.
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

    China have zero interest outside of their own little bubble of getting involved directly in anything when it comes to conflicts. They do however have their own Islamist problem and it is growing. That is the only thing that might encourage them.

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Think this scandal is dangerous for the Tories, as it is both the left e.g Newsnight and the right Staines, going for this story in a big way and they have been building it up over a number of weeks. They have got Mr Green (who was damaged anyway), but it is clear they want to make it go wider than this. Seems a pretty nasty story all round.

    In comparison, Ken saying nasty stuff, well thats Ken being Ken, its factored in. Here today, forgotten tomorrow (unfortunately).

    Some people have been obsessing over this story for weeks and they still aren't landing real hits. It is clearly a very distressing situation and one where things should have been handled better. However I am really not sure why police activity seems to be required - as I cannot see grounds for any criminal charges in all that I have read.

    There is a clear need to revise internal grievance and support procedures within the Conservative Party - but the same could be said of nearly any organisation of that size working in a high pressure environment.

    Yes, things went wrong - but it is not a scandal or dangerous.

    It is a very sad story of a young man who took his life.
  • Speedy said:

    Give me a break - when did Liz last say something? And Simon has been schutm for days.

    Why not name Hilary Benn or Caroline Flint or whomever. What a ridiculous line of argument.

    Perhaps if Ken, Len, McIRA and Jezza shut up - you'd have a point.

    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Who do you think are those unnamed "senior" Labour MP's who are constantly bitching then from even before the leadership election even happened?

    If they would only shut up they wouldn't have framed everything as a sore losers battle, everytime they open their mouths against the party I get more angry with them, and I end up supporting Corbyn more and more simply because those nasties oppose him.

    As you know I started as an Yvette Cooper supporter and look where those nasties drove me.

    It's time to expel them, they even revised my opinion that the SDP splitting was a good thing for Labour, imagine having David Owen constantly bitching about the Labour leadership from within the party.
    To paraphrase an expression " It's better to have those outside of the tent pissing in, rather that in the tent pissing in."
    Really?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,762
    Speedy said:

    Give me a break - when did Liz last say something? And Simon has been schutm for days.

    Why not name Hilary Benn or Caroline Flint or whomever. What a ridiculous line of argument.

    Perhaps if Ken, Len, McIRA and Jezza shut up - you'd have a point.

    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Who do you think are those unnamed "senior" Labour MP's who are constantly bitching then from even before the leadership election even happened?

    If they would only shut up they wouldn't have framed everything as a sore losers battle, everytime they open their mouths against the party I get more angry with them, and I end up supporting Corbyn more and more simply because those nasties oppose him.

    As you know I started as an Yvette Cooper supporter and look where those nasties drove me.

    It's time to expel them, they even revised my opinion that the SDP splitting was a good thing for Labour, imagine having David Owen constantly bitching about the Labour leadership from within the party.
    To paraphrase an expression " It's better to have those outside of the tent pissing in, rather that in the tent pissing in."
    Problem is 70% of the voters loathe Livingstone/Corbyn/McDonnell et al
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited November 2015
    Didn't Clarke allegedly attempt to blackmail someone? Halfon came clean over his affair with somebody IIRC to stop it.

    This is about Clarke now. I hope he gets all that's coming to him. He sounds a vile creature.

    Think this scandal is dangerous for the Tories, as it is both the left e.g Newsnight and the right Staines, going for this story in a big way and they have been building it up over a number of weeks. They have got Mr Green (who was damaged anyway), but it is clear they want to make it go wider than this. Seems a pretty nasty story all round.

    In comparison, Ken saying nasty stuff, well thats Ken being Ken, its factored in. Here today, forgotten tomorrow (unfortunately).

    Some people have been obsessing over this story for weeks and they still aren't landing real hits. It is clearly a very distressing situation and one where things should have been handled better. However I am really not sure why police activity seems to be required - as I cannot see grounds for any criminal charges in all that I have read.

    There is a clear need to revise internal grievance and support procedures within the Conservative Party - but the same could be said of nearly any organisation of that size working in a high pressure environment.

    Yes, things went wrong - but it is not a scandal or dangerous.

    It is a very sad story of a young man who took his life.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Corbyn and his crowd are the ones destroying Labour
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2015
    On a different note, how many round are we giving Tyson Fury this evening, before he is sat on his arse wondering what happened to him?
  • Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.


    It must be rather galling, but those 'bitching' about Jeremy Corbyn goes much further than just Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall, just look at the number of comments attributed to 'senior MPs' or 'shadow ministers' - In fact I've not heard Kendall speak since last September.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    Speedy said:

    It's time to expel them, they even revised my opinion that the SDP splitting was a good thing for Labour, imagine having David Owen constantly bitching about the Labour leadership from within the party.

    To paraphrase an expression " It's better to have those outside of the tent pissing in, rather that in the tent pissing in."

    Hope you've got your waterproofs on, cuz there's gonna be a tsunami of piss in that tent of yours....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Cyclefree said:

    I would like to comment re the issue of the "selfishness" of those who commit suicide by jumping in front of a train, discussed downthread.

    I understand why Mr J made the comments he did but I think he underestimates the nature of some mental illnesses which cause people to behave in such a way. They are not acting rationally, are often in great distress and, in some cases, may even be quite incapable of doing even the simplest action. To describe someone as selfish when they are in the grip of a mental illness and incapable of acting rationally is not, I think, a sensible or fair assessment.

    Fair enough. I'm not sure I underestimate the nature of such mental illnesses as you claim; we've been blooming helpless whilst trying to help someone out of one, sadly ultimately unsuccessfully. But I doubt most people who commit suicide do so out of the blue: they will probably have been thinking about it, and the means, for some time, even if it has not particularly been visible to friends and family. (*)

    However people who have dealt with the aftermath might hold a very different view from you. In fact, they might use much harsher language than I did.

    There's also another, possibly erroneous view: if such talk dissuades someone from jumping in front of a train then it's worthwhile.

    (*) There was a discussion about this (I think on R4) a few months back, in interviews with survivors of attempted suicides and family and friends of successful ones.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Sean_F said:

    Speedy said:

    Give me a break - when did Liz last say something? And Simon has been schutm for days.

    Why not name Hilary Benn or Caroline Flint or whomever. What a ridiculous line of argument.

    Perhaps if Ken, Len, McIRA and Jezza shut up - you'd have a point.

    Speedy said:

    This scandal is huge, if only Simon Danzcuk and Liz Kendall stopped bitching about Corbyn 24/7 people would actually notice it.
    Unfortunately the war between most of the PLP and the Labour party will go on until those MP's get expelled by either the members or the voters.

    And to think when this story started in the summer I considered voting for Yvette Copper for leader, and now I'm so angered by the behaviour of the Labour right I want them all expelled.
    Their nasty behaviour caused me to switch to Corbyn, and everyday they are out conspiring to destroy the party simply because their favourite didn't get elected, it makes me even more cross.

    Who do you think are those unnamed "senior" Labour MP's who are constantly bitching then from even before the leadership election even happened?

    If they would only shut up they wouldn't have framed everything as a sore losers battle, everytime they open their mouths against the party I get more angry with them, and I end up supporting Corbyn more and more simply because those nasties oppose him.

    As you know I started as an Yvette Cooper supporter and look where those nasties drove me.

    It's time to expel them, they even revised my opinion that the SDP splitting was a good thing for Labour, imagine having David Owen constantly bitching about the Labour leadership from within the party.
    To paraphrase an expression " It's better to have those outside of the tent pissing in, rather that in the tent pissing in."
    Problem is 70% of the voters loathe Livingstone/Corbyn/McDonnell et al
    Exactly. The people Labour need to "expel" are the electorate.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I recall you posting about the situation at the time, and how hard you'd tried to help your friend to no avail.

    I feel quite strongly that until you've been there either as a potential jumper, or trying to bring one back from the brink - it really is another world.

    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
    What a fool you are, you know nothing about what I've had to deal with.

  • Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
    What a fool you are, you know nothing about what I've had to deal with.

    I've dealt with it too, a long time ago but it will never leave me.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    I was wondering what Ken after the McMao debacle was thinking of when advocating China getting involved...

    It's beyond bizarre.

    This was another wrong week to give up sniffing glue and LSD

    But we should look to countries like China. I think China would jump at the opportunity to be involved because it would bring them on to the global stage. They have got millions of troops.
    Scott_P said:

    @itvnews: Ken Livingstone: UK troops 'too discredited' to go to Syria https://t.co/LtgyOeeZQV https://t.co/CcNhUYd8wG

    China have zero interest outside of their own little bubble of getting involved directly in anything when it comes to conflicts. They do however have their own Islamist problem and it is growing. That is the only thing that might encourage them.


    That's Livingstone trolling the public. Well, I guess he's been doing that for years.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
    What a fool you are, you know nothing about what I've had to deal with.

    You've driven a train that's hit a suicide? You've picked up the pieces afterwards?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Re suicide. I moved to a new house not far from my old one. Very good friends with my then neighbour. I went out in the evening with another friend and was walking back home from the pub. As it happened I walked past my old house and my friends next door.

    The next morning I received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening. It was really tragic as he had a lovely wife 4 beautiful young children and I still to this day have no idea why? I do though quite often reflect when the subject arises as now and have never got out of my mind that I must have missed something really obvious when I walked by and perhaps , maybe could have prevented it,
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
    What a fool you are, you know nothing about what I've had to deal with.

    You've driven a train that's hit a suicide? You've picked up the pieces afterwards?
    I've come to the conclusion you are a very unpleasant man.

  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Think this scandal is dangerous for the Tories, as it is both the left e.g Newsnight and the right Staines, going for this story in a big way and they have been building it up over a number of weeks. They have got Mr Green (who was damaged anyway), but it is clear they want to make it go wider than this. Seems a pretty nasty story all round.

    In comparison, Ken saying nasty stuff, well thats Ken being Ken, its factored in. Here today, forgotten tomorrow (unfortunately).

    Some people have been obsessing over this story for weeks and they still aren't landing real hits. It is clearly a very distressing situation and one where things should have been handled better. However I am really not sure why police activity seems to be required - as I cannot see grounds for any criminal charges in all that I have read.

    There is a clear need to revise internal grievance and support procedures within the Conservative Party - but the same could be said of nearly any organisation of that size working in a high pressure environment.

    Yes, things went wrong - but it is not a scandal or dangerous.

    It is a very sad story of a young man who took his life.
    There are allegations of blackmail, sexual assault and drug taking occuring.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Dair said:

    GeoffM said:

    Dair said:

    GeoffM said:


    I don't want or care about "better" regulation within the EU. I want Out.

    If the rest of the EU want to make regulations about bendy candles themselves ... go for it, lads.

    It is absolutely certain that everything currently regulated and classified by the EU would still need to be regulated and classified by the UK. Of course, the UK would then be paying the entire cost of this standard framework instead of sharing it with 27 other member states.

    Typical Kipper ignorance.
    It must be impossible for any country to survive outside of the EU.

    Can anyone give me any examples of a county which exists outside of the EU?
    I feel sorry for them with their grim life of semi-darkness illuminated only by bent candles.
    They probably eat their own children to survive.

    Curse the Outsiders ... with their powerful unregulated working vacuum cleaners and who are still allowed to dip bread in unlabeled olive oil dishes in tapas bars!
    Where did I say it was impossible.

    Just because your typical bigoted Outer crap has been caught out for the transparent nonsense it is, you try (weakly) to change the subject.

    It is more expensive, that is all. It doesn't go away, it doesn't stop, all that happens is the entire cost is borne by the UK instead of being shared.
    The entire cost of what?
    Presumably the entire cost of the regulation... which isn't needed, so will cost nothing.
    Many thanks Mr Lilburne - that was my thought too ... and therefore why it was impossible to follow what Dair was wittering on about.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Some pretty odd posts about suicide on here, as if a person prepared to end their own life is clear thinking and rational.

    At a time parents are grieving and their son's death is part of a national news story I'm surprised people are discussing the most appropriate way to kill yourself.

    You evidently have not had to deal with the aftermath.
    What a fool you are, you know nothing about what I've had to deal with.

    You've driven a train that's hit a suicide? You've picked up the pieces afterwards?
    I've come to the conclusion you are a very unpleasant man.

    I'm sorry you've come to that conclusion. I'm not sure what I've done to provoke that in you, but never mind.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I wouldn't. I have several friends who've considered it seriously and outside our little band, no one would guess for an instant. It's pride and stoicism and despair all rolled into one.

    That's what makes it so sad.
    Moses_ said:

    Re suicide. I moved to a new house not far from my old one. Very good friends with my then neighbour. I went out in the evening with another friend and was walking back home from the pub. As it happened I walked past my old house and my friends next door.

    The next morning I received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening. It was really tragic as he had a lovely wife 4 beautiful young children and I still to this day have no idea why? I do though quite often reflect when the subject arises as now and have never got out of my mind that I must have missed something really obvious when I walked by and perhaps , maybe could have prevented it,

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    I hope this does not upset anyone, but I feel it needs saying:

    Whilst I regret his death and sympathise with his family and friends, can I just say that the way the poor man chose to end his life was utterly selfish.

    I've known drivers and others who have been deeply affected by suicides on the tracks and their aftermath. It can stay with them forever. It is not just drivers: someone described picking up body parts and tissue from the undercarriage of a train; another finding belongings of a suicide some days afterwards. Even that, he said, had been upsetting.

    http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/saving-lives-railway/suicide-and-railways

    In some cases, such as Ufton Nervert or Glendale, on-track suicides can kill others.

    There is a counter-argument to this. I find myself in a delicate situation here, as I have had someone attempt suicide in my presence and I was the one who sought help for them (and I'm buggered if I'm giving you more details than that). Whilst I understand (and agree with) the argument that suicide is a selfish act and that there are some *very* silly people out there, I also believe that such selfishness does not preclude pity nor empathy.

    Life is hard and can be a succession of hard choices with no right answer. On this board there are very rich and successful people, but illness and bad luck can strike anybody and even the most fortunate will bury parents and grandparents. It's easy to create a situation that's difficult to get out of,and some people will suicide for reasons that seem ludicrous to us but obvious to them.

    There are some things we can't really handle: chronic pain and legal human malevolence, for example. But human distress at the vicissitudes of life we *can* handle, lying within the scope of a good social services team. The cure to any putative culture of bullying within the Conservative party is to ensure it's staffed by grown adults who can handle life like grown ups and can call out stupidity when they see it. It's more difficult than you think, but there must be plenty of coppers, soldiers, doctors and others who've seen life at the shitty end and vote blue. Giving them operational authority and oversight might be the way ahead
  • John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    My Mum committed suicide, I found her.

    I always wonder if there was anything I could have done, should have noticed, that was 35 years ago and it never goes away.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I intend to legacy my money to The Samaritans who are superb. No censure, no You're Wrong or trying to medicalise it away.

    If any PBer needs a listening ear that has no agenda whatsoever - call them. Great for those dealing with the fall out too.
    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    My Mum committed suicide, I found her.

    I always wonder if there was anything I could have done, should have noticed, that was 35 years ago and it never goes away.
    My ex wife found her father.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    viewcode said:

    I hope this does not upset anyone, but I feel it needs saying:

    Whilst I regret his death and sympathise with his family and friends, can I just say that the way the poor man chose to end his life was utterly selfish.

    I've known drivers and others who have been deeply affected by suicides on the tracks and their aftermath. It can stay with them forever. It is not just drivers: someone described picking up body parts and tissue from the undercarriage of a train; another finding belongings of a suicide some days afterwards. Even that, he said, had been upsetting.

    http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/saving-lives-railway/suicide-and-railways

    In some cases, such as Ufton Nervert or Glendale, on-track suicides can kill others.

    There is a counter-argument to this. I find myself in a delicate situation here, as I have had someone attempt suicide in my presence and I was the one who sought help for them (and I'm buggered if I'm giving you more details than that). Whilst I understand (and agree with) the argument that suicide is a selfish act and that there are some *very* silly people out there, I also believe that such selfishness does not preclude pity nor empathy.

    Life is hard and can be a succession of hard choices with no right answer. On this board there are very rich and successful people, but illness and bad luck can strike anybody and even the most fortunate will bury parents and grandparents. It's easy to create a situation that's difficult to get out of,and some people will suicide for reasons that seem ludicrous to us but obvious to them.

    There are some things we can't really handle: chronic pain and legal human malevolence, for example. But human distress at the vicissitudes of life we *can* handle, lying within the scope of a good social services team. The cure to any putative culture of bullying within the Conservative party is to ensure it's staffed by grown adults who can handle life like grown ups and can call out stupidity when they see it. It's more difficult than you think, but there must be plenty of coppers, soldiers, doctors and others who've seen life at the shitty end and vote blue. Giving them operational authority and oversight might be the way ahead
    Agree with that, particularly "I also believe that such selfishness does not preclude pity nor empathy. "
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    I intend to legacy my money to The Samaritans who are superb. No censure, no You're Wrong or trying to medicalise it away.

    If any PBer needs a listening ear that has no agenda whatsoever - call them. Great for those dealing with the fall out too.

    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    When I read of the £millions spent on Batman and Yentob then look at those selfless people at the Samaritans I despair.

  • I intend to legacy my money to The Samaritans who are superb. No censure, no You're Wrong or trying to medicalise it away.

    If any PBer needs a listening ear that has no agenda whatsoever - call them. Great for those dealing with the fall out too.

    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    When I read of the £millions spent on Batman and Yentob then look at those selfless people at the Samaritans I despair.

    I agree totally.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I don't think anyone who chooses suicide is selfish - often they think they're the problem and are eliminating themselves from being a burden, difficult or whatever. In an odd way, it's very noble.

    Without knowing how my Uncle Brian was affected by a train jumper, I'd never considered the impact of such a 100% certain way out.

    viewcode said:

    I hope this does not upset anyone, but I feel it needs saying:

    Whilst I regret his death and sympathise with his family and friends, can I just say that the way the poor man chose to end his life was utterly selfish.

    I've known drivers and others who have been deeply affected by suicides on the tracks and their aftermath. It can stay with them forever. It is not just drivers: someone described picking up body parts and tissue from the undercarriage of a train; another finding belongings of a suicide some days afterwards. Even that, he said, had been upsetting.

    http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/saving-lives-railway/suicide-and-railways

    In some cases, such as Ufton Nervert or Glendale, on-track suicides can kill others.

    There is a counter-argument to this. I find myself in a delicate situation here, as I have had someone attempt suicide in my presence and I was the one who sought help for them (and I'm buggered if I'm giving you more details than that). Whilst I understand (and agree with) the argument that suicide is a selfish act and that there are some *very* silly people out there, I also believe that such selfishness does not preclude pity nor empathy.

    Life is hard and can be a succession of hard choices with no right answer. On this board there are very rich and successful people, but illness and bad luck can strike anybody and even the most fortunate will bury parents and grandparents. It's easy to create a situation that's difficult to get out of,and some people will suicide for reasons that seem ludicrous to us but obvious to them.

    There are some things we can't really handle: chronic pain and legal human malevolence, for example. But human distress at the vicissitudes of life we *can* handle, lying within the scope of a good social services team. The cure to any putative culture of bullying within the Conservative party is to ensure it's staffed by grown adults who can handle life like grown ups and can call out stupidity when they see it. It's more difficult than you think, but there must be plenty of coppers, soldiers, doctors and others who've seen life at the shitty end and vote blue. Giving them operational authority and oversight might be the way ahead
    Agree with that, particularly "I also believe that such selfishness does not preclude pity nor empathy. "
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    I wouldn't. I have several friends who've considered it seriously and outside our little band, no one would guess for an instant. It's pride and stoicism and despair all rolled into one.

    That's what makes it so sad.

    Moses_ said:

    Re suicide. I moved to a new house not far from my old one. Very good friends with my then neighbour. I went out in the evening with another friend and was walking back home from the pub. As it happened I walked past my old house and my friends next door.

    The next morning I received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening. It was really tragic as he had a lovely wife 4 beautiful young children and I still to this day have no idea why? I do though quite often reflect when the subject arises as now and have never got out of my mind that I must have missed something really obvious when I walked by and perhaps , maybe could have prevented it,

    I wouldn't. I have several friends who've considered it seriously and outside our little band, no one would guess for an instant. It's pride and stoicism and despair all rolled into one.

    That's what makes it so sad.

    Moses_ said:

    Re suicide. I moved to a new house not far from my old one. Very good friends with my then neighbour. I went out in the evening with another friend and was walking back home from the pub. As it happened I walked past my old house and my friends next door.

    The next morning I received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening. It was really tragic as he had a lovely wife 4 beautiful young children and I still to this day have no idea why? I do though quite often reflect when the subject arises as now and have never got out of my mind that I must have missed something really obvious when I walked by and perhaps , maybe could have prevented it,

    Thanks but all the same you think. .....it really was and is a tragic utter waste of a good person and life that will have implications long after for his family.

    The one thing that has struck me here tonight is there is perhaps a dozen people posting at the moment and all of us in one form or another have either directly or indirectly experienced a suicide. That really is quite stunning and i wonder quite how prevalent this is in society as a whole and what we could do about it if anything?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    Weirdly, there is. Whether it's odors being added to natural gas, or paracetamol being limited to 16 tablets per packet, suicide methods are constantly being made more difficult. Groups like the Samaritans are widely advertised. Compared to (say) the 1960's, it's more difficult now.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :+1:

    I intend to legacy my money to The Samaritans who are superb. No censure, no You're Wrong or trying to medicalise it away.

    If any PBer needs a listening ear that has no agenda whatsoever - call them. Great for those dealing with the fall out too.

    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    When I read of the £millions spent on Batman and Yentob then look at those selfless people at the Samaritans I despair.

  • Our Tory friends seem in denial about this story.

    If half of what the Guardian has reported today is true then there is grief a plenty to come for the Prime Minister. Not only is a young man dead but the behaviour reported on speaks to a party rotten to the core as Simon Heffer suggests.

    In contrast the problems of the SNP are miniscule, the Labour Party are political problems which the public understand and will be resolved one way or another long before the next election. The Liberals and Reynard is an equivalent story but reflects on an individual. This Tory story speaks of an unpleasant culture at the heart of the party and one which was tolerated if not condoned by those at the top.

    It is a big story.
  • John Major officially became PM 25 years ago today.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    I would like to comment re the issue of the "selfishness" of those who commit suicide by jumping in front of a train, discussed downthread.

    I understand why Mr J made the comments he did but I think he underestimates the nature of some mental illnesses which cause people to behave in such a way. They are not acting rationally, are often in great distress and, in some cases, may even be quite incapable of doing even the simplest action. To describe someone as selfish when they are in the grip of a mental illness and incapable of acting rationally is not, I think, a sensible or fair assessment.

    Fair enough. I'm not sure I underestimate the nature of such mental illnesses as you claim; we've been blooming helpless whilst trying to help someone out of one, sadly ultimately unsuccessfully. But I doubt most people who commit suicide do so out of the blue: they will probably have been thinking about it, and the means, for some time, even if it has not particularly been visible to friends and family. (*)

    However people who have dealt with the aftermath might hold a very different view from you. In fact, they might use much harsher language than I did.

    There's also another, possibly erroneous view: if such talk dissuades someone from jumping in front of a train then it's worthwhile.

    (*) There was a discussion about this (I think on R4) a few months back, in interviews with survivors of attempted suicides and family and friends of successful ones.
    I know a young man suffering from very severe mental illness at one point who would self-harm to such a degree that he would step out in front of moving traffic because he thought that by harming himself it would help relieve his distress, caused by feelings so bizarre and irrational that you and I would struggle to make sense of them. It did not make sense because an illness of this type is not a rational response which can be alleviated by a talk. He did not intend suicide but that is what would have happened had a driver - a Good Samaritan - not stopped and called the authorities who were able to ensure he was taken to safety.

    It cannot in any sense be anything other than an appalling experience to be a train driver who is used by a suicidee. And I have great sympathy for them. But they have their lives. People in the depths of despair, in the grip of tormenting demons are in pain. The concept of selfishness, of thinking of others, even of thinking of what is best for themselves simply has no meaning for them at that moment.

    That's all I wanted to say.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Three close friends of mine committed suicide..two of them within minutes of being in a crowd of us in a pub and on a film shoot..At first I was shocked ..then angry..with them..and then with myself..for not spotting the signs..and a failure on my part for not being there for them...very sad.. Personally I am too much of a coward to even begin to contemplate that sort of ending..
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I don't think anyone who chooses suicide is selfish - often they think they're the problem and are eliminating themselves from being a burden, difficult or whatever. In an odd way, it's very noble.

    Without knowing how my Uncle Brian was affected by a train jumper, I'd never considered the impact of such a 100% certain way out.

    Fair enough.

    Oddly, it isn't a 100% certain way out:

    I won't link to them as they can be a bit grizzly, but there are lots of stories of people surviving such attempts, sadly often with life-changing injuries.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I don't know if I'm a statistical oddity because I have friends who've shared how they felt - but if my experience is anything to go by - a lot of people go through black periods and are too scared to say so.

    It's a huge step to talk about and laugh about it.
    Moses_ said:

    I wouldn't. I have several friends who've considered it seriously and outside our little band, no one would guess for an instant. It's pride and stoicism and despair all rolled into one.

    That's what makes it so sad.

    Moses_ said:

    Re suicide. I moved to a new house not far from my old one. Very good friends with my then neighbour. I went out in the evening with another friend and was walking back home from the pub. As it happened I walked past my old house and my friends next door.

    The next morning I received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening. It was really tragic as he had a lovely wife 4 beautiful young children and I still to this day have no idea why? I do though quite often reflect when the subject arises as now and have never got out of my mind that I must have missed something really obvious when I walked by and perhaps , maybe could have prevented it,

    I wouldn't. I have several friends who've considered it seriously and outside our little band, no one would guess for an instant. It's pride and stoicism and despair all rolled into one.

    That's what makes it so sad.

    Moses_ said:

    Re suicide. I moved to a new house not far from my old one. Very good friends with my then neighbour. I went out in the evening with another friend and was walking back home from the pub. As it happened I walked past my old house and my friends next door.

    The next morning I received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening. It was really tragic as he had a lovely wife 4 beautiful young children and I still to this day have no idea why? I do though quite often reflect when the subject arises as now and have never got out of my mind that I must have missed something really obvious when I walked by and perhaps , maybe could have prevented it,

    Thanks but all the same you think. .....it really was and is a tragic utter waste of a good person and life that will have implications long after for his family.

    The one thing that has struck me here tonight is there is perhaps a dozen people posting at the moment and all of us in one form or another have either directly or indirectly experienced a suicide. That really is quite stunning and i wonder quite how prevalent this is in society as a whole and what we could do about it if anything?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    scotslass said:

    Our Tory friends seem in denial about this story.

    If half of what the Guardian has reported today is true then there is grief a plenty to come for the Prime Minister. Not only is a young man dead but the behaviour reported on speaks to a party rotten to the core as Simon Heffer suggests.

    In contrast the problems of the SNP are miniscule, the Labour Party are political problems which the public understand and will be resolved one way or another long before the next election. The Liberals and Reynard is an equivalent story but reflects on an individual. This Tory story speaks of an unpleasant culture at the heart of the party and one which was tolerated if not condoned by those at the top.

    It is a big story.

    If it was a big story, it would have made an impact long before this.

    There is nothing new emerging at the moment.

    It is just wishful thinking on the part of those who oppose the Conservative Party.

    I am not condoning the actions of Clarke or diminishing the suffering of the young man who died (and the on-going suffering of his family)

    But this really is not a big story in the way you are seeking to paint it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Serious betting question - Is there any chance on God's green earth Wayne Rooney will win SPOTY.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Anyone who's seriously intending to kill themselves isn't deterred by shopping for paracetamol over a few days or visiting a few more chemists.

    It stops some spontaneous ones - but I can't take it very seriously. Beachy Head is infested with vicars trying to stop jumpers too.
    viewcode said:

    John_M said:

    Good evening all. My Father committed suicide when I was 13. I can look back and see how that one act has ramified through our family for over forty years.

    I feel sorry for people who are driven to such desperate measures, I wish there were some practical steps we could collectively take to reduce the numbers.

    Weirdly, there is. Whether it's odors being added to natural gas, or paracetamol being limited to 16 tablets per packet, suicide methods are constantly being made more difficult. Groups like the Samaritans are widely advertised. Compared to (say) the 1960's, it's more difficult now.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    I'm getting really depressed about all this talk about suicide.

    Can we make fun of the Labour party a bit more?

    Thanks.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Someone across the road from a friend threw themselves off a multi storey carpark. Life changing and no death. It wasn't tall enough.

    Calculating the likelihood of one's demise is harder than it looks.

    I don't think anyone who chooses suicide is selfish - often they think they're the problem and are eliminating themselves from being a burden, difficult or whatever. In an odd way, it's very noble.

    Without knowing how my Uncle Brian was affected by a train jumper, I'd never considered the impact of such a 100% certain way out.

    Fair enough.

    Oddly, it isn't a 100% certain way out:

    I won't link to them as they can be a bit grizzly, but there are lots of stories of people surviving such attempts, sadly often with life-changing injuries.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    scotslass said:

    Our Tory friends seem in denial about this story.

    If half of what the Guardian has reported today is true then there is grief a plenty to come for the Prime Minister. Not only is a young man dead but the behaviour reported on speaks to a party rotten to the core as Simon Heffer suggests.

    In contrast the problems of the SNP are miniscule, the Labour Party are political problems which the public understand and will be resolved one way or another long before the next election. The Liberals and Reynard is an equivalent story but reflects on an individual. This Tory story speaks of an unpleasant culture at the heart of the party and one which was tolerated if not condoned by those at the top.

    It is a big story.

    If it was a big story, it would have made an impact long before this.

    There is nothing new emerging at the moment.

    It is just wishful thinking on the part of those who oppose the Conservative Party.

    I am not condoning the actions of Clarke or diminishing the suffering of the young man who died (and the on-going suffering of his family)

    But this really is not a big story in the way you are seeking to paint it.
    I agree it won't hurt the Tories in the slightest, it will simply reinforce the public's view of politics in general. False names, bullying, suicides, denials and counter claims, just one big yawn for the electorate. Internally it will weaken Cameron to some extent as his judgement will come under scrutiny again, but among the electorate nothing will change.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    John_M said:

    My Father committed suicide when I was 13...

    My Mum committed suicide, I found her.

    My ex wife found her father...

    Moses_ said:

    ...received a call from another friend and x neighbour to say that he had committed suicide in the car in the garage the previous evening...

    I am genuinely sorry to hear this: my sympathies to you and to any other similar posters upthread that I may have missed.


  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    scotslass said:

    Our Tory friends seem in denial about this story.

    If half of what the Guardian has reported today is true then there is grief a plenty to come for the Prime Minister. Not only is a young man dead but the behaviour reported on speaks to a party rotten to the core as Simon Heffer suggests.

    In contrast the problems of the SNP are miniscule, the Labour Party are political problems which the public understand and will be resolved one way or another long before the next election. The Liberals and Reynard is an equivalent story but reflects on an individual. This Tory story speaks of an unpleasant culture at the heart of the party and one which was tolerated if not condoned by those at the top.

    It is a big story.

    If it was a big story, it would have made an impact long before this.

    There is nothing new emerging at the moment.

    It is just wishful thinking on the part of those who oppose the Conservative Party.

    I am not condoning the actions of Clarke or diminishing the suffering of the young man who died (and the on-going suffering of his family)

    But this really is not a big story in the way you are seeking to paint it.
    Maybe ......maybe not. You have to agree though, that was seriously tip top trolling by Scotslass.

    Listen up all .... Read and learn......this is how the professionals do it.

    Respect
    :lol::wink:
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Some years ago I filmed a documentary about the high levels of suicides from the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco..one of the jumpers survived..he was a young man.. a tourist who walked out to the middle section of the bridge to take some pics...then suddenly decided to jump..and he did..left his wallet etc on the sidewalk and climbed over the railings..jumped..he had horrendous injuries but lived..He was due to start his college course at the SF Uni the following week.. he had no idea why he did it..
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    Anyone who's seriously intending to kill themselves isn't deterred by shopping for paracetamol over a few days or visiting a few more chemists.

    True. But every little helps.


  • I'm getting really depressed about all this talk about suicide.

    Can we make fun of the Labour party a bit more?

    Thanks.

    I agree, though I have to admit I may be calling the Samiritans myself after Chelsea get hammered at Spurs tomorrow
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    N4 E..Get in line.. Man U supporters first
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Toms said:
    Why is French demand at 60+ GW when we're at 35 GW - I find that a bit surprising.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    edited November 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    Serious betting question - Is there any chance on God's green earth Wayne Rooney will win SPOTY.

    No but you can make an easy 10% by backing the GB Davis Cup team for Team of the Year.

    In fact Oddschecker say on Betfair you can get 1.22 but I can't find it, think it might be on Sportsbook
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Bridge jumpers always make me think of Tony Scott. He knew how he wanted out before illness got him and did it.

    Some years ago I filmed a documentary about the high levels of suicides from the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco..one of the jumpers survived..he was a young man.. a tourist who walked out to the middle section of the bridge to take some pics...then suddenly decided to jump..and he did..left his wallet etc on the sidewalk and climbed over the railings..jumped..he had horrendous injuries but lived..He was due to start his college course at the SF Uni the following week.. he had no idea why he did it..

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Pulpstar said:

    Toms said:
    Why is French demand at 60+ GW when we're at 35 GW - I find that a bit surprising.
    Dunno.

    Further to the discussion I find it really upsetting to see an animal or human in a helpless state.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato..There has got to be a moment of doubt on the way down.

    .
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Heart rending. I'm totally pro voluntary euthanasia. I promised my mum I'd help her and bugger the consequences. As it was, her hospice doctors did it instead.
    Toms said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Toms said:
    Why is French demand at 60+ GW when we're at 35 GW - I find that a bit surprising.
    Dunno.

    Further to the discussion I find it really upsetting to see an animal or human in a helpless state.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    MikeK said:

    Just me letting in a little light on the subject:
    twitter.com/DICS131294/status/670641254804398080

    So you believe there should be no standards for goods and services provided to the population?

    Idiot. Only a Kipper could find this sort of thing remotely strange.
    Candles are cheap. If you buy a crap one, you'll buy a different brand next time.
    [snip]

    The EU sets the standards for goods across the EU. This is agreed and sensible as it is cheaper than each country doing the whole thing themselves (except for those country that moronically maintain a relatively substantial Standard Institute themselves - such as, oh, the UK).
    The BSI makes about £30 million a year off revenue of close to £300m. Well more than 50% of the revenues come from international markets* meaning that it is a significant export earner, and a part of the brand equity of the UK.

    Why, exactly, is it moronic to maintain this?


    * 54% of revenues come from EMEA - they don't give a breakdown for the UK specifically although Germany, Spain and the Middle East are cited as important markets
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato I got an NHS Doctor to kill my father..in the gentlest way..
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Did you hear the one about Labour electing a terrorist-loving, Mao-supporting, England-hating leader?

    No joke.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's absurd that the RSPCA would attempt to prosecute me for keeping a suffering animal alive, yet the law would prosecute me for trying to help my parent to end it all.

    Plato I got an NHS Doctor to kill my father..in the gentlest way..

This discussion has been closed.