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SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited December 2015 in General
«13456789

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  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,487
    "1 decimal point"

    not 2 ?
  • "1 decimal point"

    not 2 ?

    I'll change thar
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Third.

    Like Labour in Scotland.
  • Been out all morning. How many Labour car crashes have I missed?
  • There's a Loony on the ballot too IIRC. So need to total to under 100%
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    edited December 2015

    There's a Loony on the ballot too IIRC. So need to total to under 100%

    I left 0.5% for other assorted loons. I do however think the Lib Dems should be odds on for beating the MRLP. I felt generous, and put them in at 1.94%.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Looking at the guesstimates so far - it's all pretty close bar one doughty soul hoping for a LD surge1
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Pulpstar said:

    There's a Loony on the ballot too IIRC. So need to total to under 100%

    I left 0.5% for other assorted loons. I do however think the Lib Dems should be odds on for beating the MRLP. I felt generous, and put them in at 1.94%.
    Not much meaningful difference between voting Loony or Liberal these days.
  • chestnut said:
    Corbynism sweeping the nation...
  • FPT:
    Dair said:



    Most of the chemicals that go to make up our bodies and which we rely upon to survive are poisonous in large enough concentrations. It is a matter of scale and circumstances. The idea that fluoride in the sorts of concentrations you find it in dental products is a poison is just garbage

    There is a subtlety between what will make you drop dead on the spot, and what will be injurious to health if practised on a long term basis, that you are clearly missing. I'm not saying that fluoride in toothpaste will make people keel over, I am saying that although 'safe' in small doses, building up a large load of a toxic chemical that your body has to excrete or store is not a good idea.
    Toothpaste has around 1500 ppm of flouride. Which means it has a lower concentration than wine, tea and raisins. Of course these things also contain acids are should not be left in contact with your teeth for extended periods, whereas toothpaste is free from such negatives.

    The sheer muppetry of your posts on this are genuinely beyond belief.
    Not sure where you are getting your info from - wine at more than 1500 ppm of fluoride?
  • Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    There's a Loony on the ballot too IIRC. So need to total to under 100%

    I left 0.5% for other assorted loons. I do however think the Lib Dems should be odds on for beating the MRLP. I felt generous, and put them in at 1.94%.
    Not much meaningful difference between voting Loony or Liberal these days.
    Indeed - both have turned out to be closet Tories!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,984
    Is the writing on the wall for Labour - goes off to play Oldham born Walton's Balshazzar's Feast.

    And in that same hour, as they feasted
    Came forth fingers of a man's hand
    And the King saw
    The part of the hand that wrote.

    And this was the writing that was written:
    'Mene, Mene, Tekel Upharsin'
    'Thou Art Weighed In The Balance
    and Found Wanting.'
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2015

    chestnut said:
    Corbynism sweeping the nation...
    "Then there are the don't knows. They hate Corbyn"

    That sounds like they do know. :smile:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    I spy an entry that won't be happy if they win the book *cough* @AlistairMeeks
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 28,931
    edited December 2015
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:
    Corbynism sweeping the nation...
    "Then there are the don't knows. They hate Corbyn"

    That sounds like they do know. :smile:
    What the "don't knows" mean is actually they hate the current Labour party, they hate Corbyn, but they also will never ever ever vote anybody else, because their family is Labour through and through.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    @MikeK Might be near with his Lib Dem entry :D
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited December 2015

    FPT:

    Dair said:



    Most of the chemicals that go to make up our bodies and which we rely upon to survive are poisonous in large enough concentrations. It is a matter of scale and circumstances. The idea that fluoride in the sorts of concentrations you find it in dental products is a poison is just garbage

    There is a subtlety between what will make you drop dead on the spot, and what will be injurious to health if practised on a long term basis, that you are clearly missing. I'm not saying that fluoride in toothpaste will make people keel over, I am saying that although 'safe' in small doses, building up a large load of a toxic chemical that your body has to excrete or store is not a good idea.
    Toothpaste has around 1500 ppm of flouride. Which means it has a lower concentration than wine, tea and raisins. Of course these things also contain acids are should not be left in contact with your teeth for extended periods, whereas toothpaste is free from such negatives.

    The sheer muppetry of your posts on this are genuinely beyond belief.
    Not sure where you are getting your info from - wine at more than 1500 ppm of fluoride?
    Meh, my error, I misread a wiki table as g not mg. And while that puts me out by a factor of 1000, it still means a couple of bottles of will provide comparable amounts of flouride as a squeeze of toothpaste.
  • I've only been out-Kippered by MikeK so far :)
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Damning
    Unfortunately for Labour, both these white working-class groups have reasons to despise Jeremy Corbyn, which is what they are expressing on doorstep after doorstep. Blue-collar households think he’s soft on immigration and welfare and a republican pacifist. Disaffected voters either don’t know who he is, in which case he’s “just another politician”, or hear him speaking about socialism and solidarity and wonder what he’s blathering on about. Both groups will know full well what his and John McDonnell’s views on the IRA are. Both groups aren’t shy in hanging St George’s flags from their windows, as Emily Thornberry might note. All of which is good reason for Corbyn cancelling seat visits and concentrating on a good local candidate in Jim McMahon.
    chestnut said:
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077

    I've only been out-Kippered by MikeK so far :)

    The perception is it will be close. I think your prediction this will squeeze the Tory, Green and Lib Dem vote is correct.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 28,931
    edited December 2015
    I thought the thing about Labour struggling because people think they stand up / only interested in "White Dee" types.

    I wondered if by that they meant the public sector worker sacked for stealing? the resultant benefit scrounging lay about? or the z-list reality tv celeb doing the PA circuit? Or all 3?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I didn't want to say...

    I've only been out-Kippered by MikeK so far :)

  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 948
    edited December 2015
    Slight danger in using this as a predictive tool - I've gone for Labour at around 48%
    Not because it's my best guess, but because I think it's possible, and there won't be many predictions in that area. Far more chance of being closest with an off-centre prediction, than jumping in the middle of the pack and hoping that I guessed right on those 2 decimal places.

    Of course, there may be a couple of people bullish on UKIP's chances on the other side to balance me out, but using this as a competition AND a prediction tool can be contradictory.
  • Sadiq odds-against now (2.02). Zac 2.28. 93.4% ! Galloway isn't that likely (though with Corbyn's endorsement, who knows ;-) )
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,984
    edited December 2015
    Am now amused to discover that William Walton's birthplace lies in Oldham West....Thou are weighed in the balance and found wanting etc.

    http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/77989/music-maestro-walton
  • Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,244
    @jonwalker121: Birmingham MP Jack Dromey says Ken Livingstone must be sacked for 'legitimising' terrorism https://t.co/etaqTwDzEd https://t.co/P5Z6UHbJn0
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 28,931
    edited December 2015

    I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
  • Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.

    Well that's mostly a 65% and 90% prediction skewing things.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.

    You've upped your UKIP prediction from 5 to 33!!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    I've gone with Labour by a handful - two recounts at least....
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Saying let's talk about it, then immediately emailing everyone what you've already decided...

    I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
  • [Sunil whistles innocently...]
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.
  • Saying let's talk about it, then immediately emailing everyone what you've already decided...

    I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    And of course the "public consultation" that was as dodgy as could be. As they say, it isn't who votes, it is who counts the votes...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077

    Sadiq odds-against now (2.02). Zac 2.28. 93.4% ! Galloway isn't that likely (though with Corbyn's endorsement, who knows ;-) )

    Thanks, taken what was left of both of those.
  • It seems that I am being a bit of a Labour optimist with my 55.55%!
  • Dair said:

    FPT:

    Dair said:



    Most of the chemicals that go to make up our bodies and which we rely upon to survive are poisonous in large enough concentrations. It is a matter of scale and circumstances. The idea that fluoride in the sorts of concentrations you find it in dental products is a poison is just garbage

    There is a subtlety between what will make you drop dead on the spot, and what will be injurious to health if practised on a long term basis, that you are clearly missing. I'm not saying that fluoride in toothpaste will make people keel over, I am saying that although 'safe' in small doses, building up a large load of a toxic chemical that your body has to excrete or store is not a good idea.
    Toothpaste has around 1500 ppm of flouride. Which means it has a lower concentration than wine, tea and raisins. Of course these things also contain acids are should not be left in contact with your teeth for extended periods, whereas toothpaste is free from such negatives.

    The sheer muppetry of your posts on this are genuinely beyond belief.
    Not sure where you are getting your info from - wine at more than 1500 ppm of fluoride?
    Meh, my error, I misread a wiki table as g not mg. And while that puts me out by a factor of 1000, it still means a couple of bottles of will provide comparable amounts of flouride as a squeeze of toothpaste.
    The biggest concentration I've read about in wine is 6 parts per million. Meaning you went on a huge rant about me being a muppet, and it was you who turned out to look like a complete chump. Don't apologise though please, it's already forgotten.

    As it happens, you do (purely by accident) raise a good point - not only do many of us live in areas where this poison (yes in small doses blah blah) is added to drinking water, we also get another secondary helping through food (especially that imported from the US) where there is a lot of fluoride in the water table, adding to our consumption. So therefore its more wise (not less) to limit consumption where possible.
  • It seems that I am being a bit of a Labour optimist with my 55.55%!

    Given that Labour increased their vote share in every by-election in the neighbourhood in the last Parliament, you should be well-placed. Perhaps.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077

    Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.

    Its a by election.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,575

    I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    It a western version of N Korea.. KIm Jong Jezbollah..
  • isam said:

    Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.

    You've upped your UKIP prediction from 5 to 33!!
    It's a by-election. The Tories aren't in the race anymore. The party seen as the challenger will gain a load of protest votes. So, the facts have changed and I've changed my opinion.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    If anyone has been left with a massive green on Tesa Jowell could they do me a favour and lay her at 180s :) ?
  • Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.

    Well that's mostly a 65% and 90% prediction skewing things.
    Quite.
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    It's a fine summary. Not sure that Twitter's the ideal medium to put it out on unless he was trying to build anticipation for his conclusion.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    * waves to all the lurking voters *

    I wonder if any will wave back?
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    It a western version of N Korea.. KIm Jong Jezbollah..
    I like that. Kim Jong Jez and McMao have a rather good ring to it, and sums them up rather well.
  • Pulpstar said:

    I spy an entry that won't be happy if they win the book *cough* @AlistairMeeks

    Consistency is the sign of a small mind.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I loved @Patrick's
    Pulpstar said:

    Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.

    Its a by election.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280

    Dair said:

    FPT:

    Dair said:



    Most of the chemicals that go to make up our bodies and which we rely upon to survive are poisonous in large enough concentrations. It is a matter of scale and circumstances. The idea that fluoride in the sorts of concentrations you find it in dental products is a poison is just garbage

    There is a subtlety between what will make you drop dead on the spot, and what will be injurious to health if practised on a long term basis, that you are clearly missing. I'm not saying that fluoride in toothpaste will make people keel over, I am saying that although 'safe' in small doses, building up a large load of a toxic chemical that your body has to excrete or store is not a good idea.
    Toothpaste has around 1500 ppm of flouride. Which means it has a lower concentration than wine, tea and raisins. Of course these things also contain acids are should not be left in contact with your teeth for extended periods, whereas toothpaste is free from such negatives.

    The sheer muppetry of your posts on this are genuinely beyond belief.
    Not sure where you are getting your info from - wine at more than 1500 ppm of fluoride?
    Meh, my error, I misread a wiki table as g not mg. And while that puts me out by a factor of 1000, it still means a couple of bottles of will provide comparable amounts of flouride as a squeeze of toothpaste.
    The biggest concentration I've read about in wine is 6 parts per million. Meaning you went on a huge rant about me being a muppet, and it was you who turned out to look like a complete chump. Don't apologise though please, it's already forgotten.

    As it happens, you do (purely by accident) raise a good point - not only do many of us live in areas where this poison (yes in small doses blah blah) is added to drinking water, we also get another secondary helping through food (especially that imported from the US) where there is a lot of fluoride in the water table, adding to our consumption. So therefore its more wise (not less) to limit consumption where possible.
    Given the obvious quality (or lack thereof) of your research (witness your IHH embarrassment last night), why should anyone take anything you say about medicine seriously?

    Do you have any medical qualifications, or did you just get it from Alex Jones or a.n.other conspiracy website?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    edited December 2015
    Where is Mark Senior with a 15% Lib Dem prediction :D ?
  • Not able to log on here but my predictions will be:

    UKIP - 42.5
    Lab - 40.2
    Con - 12.3
    Grn - 3.1
    LD - 1.5
    MRL - 0.4
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108

    It seems that I am being a bit of a Labour optimist with my 55.55%!

    You don't HAVE to kiss-ass to Jeremy on here you know....
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    It's a fine summary. Not sure that Twitter's the ideal medium to put it out on unless he was trying to build anticipation for his conclusion.
    He is only saying what I said from the minute Corbyn was elected.
  • FPT:



    "I did some research"

    I would be careful given your track record of 'research'.

    In all seriousness, be very careful about believing what you read on websites (and to a lesser extent the media) about medical issues. Too much of it is quackery, clickbait or money-fodder. Some of it can be actively injurious to your health.

    Actually, the opposite is true of the diet protocol I 'follow' (I'm not slavish). I follow a 'Weston A Price' diet. Price was a dentist who noted declining dental (and general) health in the US population in the early 20th century. He embarked on a mission to go around the world learning about the healthiest and longest lived societies - largely those untouched by industrialisation etc. From Eskimos, to African tribes, to Swiss villages. Such a thing can't be done these days - these peoples are gone.

    He found each society, though some were nearly vegeterian, some almost entirely carniverous etc., had in common certain 'sacred foods' that kept them healthy, free from disease and long lived.

    Look at today's society - we're being kept alive a bit longer by medical advances and greatly reduced deprivation, but healthier? Allergies and intolerances are out of control, cancer, heart and other diseases likewise. Who says our diet is healthier? 20 years ago fat was the enemy. It's now sugar. These are trends, not nutritional truths. The past is really the only place we can look to find out what's healthy - what worked generation to generation when there were no doctors. The unfashionable concept of wisdom. The 'risk' lies in following today's food fads.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    @Tapestry was our most entertaining conspiracy blogger - here's him on fluoride http://tapnewswire.com/2015/01/fluorides-part-in-the-increase-in-cancer/

    I enjoyed this one http://tapnewswire.com/2015/11/do-nuclear-bombs-actually-exist/

    Dair said:

    FPT:

    Dair said:



    Most of the chemicals that go to make up our bodies and which we rely upon to survive are poisonous in large enough concentrations. It is a matter of scale and circumstances. The idea that fluoride in the sorts of concentrations you find it in dental products is a poison is just garbage

    There is a subtlety between what will make you drop dead on the spot, and what will be injurious to health if practised on a long term basis, that you are clearly missing. I'm not saying that fluoride in toothpaste will make people keel over, I am saying that although 'safe' in small doses, building up a large load of a toxic chemical that your body has to excrete or store is not a good idea.
    Toothpaste has around 1500 ppm of flouride. Which means it has a lower concentration than wine, tea and raisins. Of course these things also contain acids are should not be left in contact with your teeth for extended periods, whereas toothpaste is free from such negatives.

    The sheer muppetry of your posts on this are genuinely beyond belief.
    Not sure where you are getting your info from - wine at more than 1500 ppm of fluoride?
    Meh, my error, I misread a wiki table as g not mg. And while that puts me out by a factor of 1000, it still means a couple of bottles of will provide comparable amounts of flouride as a squeeze of toothpaste.
    The biggest concentration I've read about in wine is 6 parts per million. Meaning you went on a huge rant about me being a muppet, and it was you who turned out to look like a complete chump. Don't apologise though please, it's already forgotten.

    As it happens, you do (purely by accident) raise a good point - not only do many of us live in areas where this poison (yes in small doses blah blah) is added to drinking water, we also get another secondary helping through food (especially that imported from the US) where there is a lot of fluoride in the water table, adding to our consumption. So therefore its more wise (not less) to limit consumption where possible.
    Given the obvious quality (or lack thereof) of your research (witness your IHH embarrassment last night), why should anyone take anything you say about medicine seriously?

    Do you have any medical qualifications, or did you just get it from Alex Jones or a.n.other conspiracy website?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,640

    I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.
    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077

    Not able to log on here but my predictions will be:

    UKIP - 42.5
    Lab - 40.2
    Con - 12.3
    Grn - 3.1
    LD - 1.5
    MRL - 0.4

    If you work backwards, Lib Dem and Green and MRLP will sum through to 5% or thereabouts. Aside from Tories 1 in 20 casting very minor party votes makes sense.

    Going through to Con, well there will be a squeeze.

    A 14% drop in Labour looks eminently sensible, 40% is still a fair few votes. And the rest going to UKIP wraps up the maths nicely.
  • It seems that I am being a bit of a Labour optimist with my 55.55%!

    You don't HAVE to kiss-ass to Jeremy on here you know....
    I need to make up to him for telling him I support the bombing!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    @MikeSmithson You must be hopeful that turnout is squeezed to such a degree that those 500 or so stoic Lib Dems can save yr deposit :D

  • He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
  • These comptitions always interesting. Aim for the centre of the pack or a bit of room on the outsides?

    Still fuming I came within 0.06% of predicting Corbyn's vote but didn't win because those weren't the rules! I waz robbed....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077

    It seems that I am being a bit of a Labour optimist with my 55.55%!

    You don't HAVE to kiss-ass to Jeremy on here you know....
    I need to make up to him for telling him I support the bombing!
    "Now I've got a letter here from Sandy here.... "
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Arguably they did if they were union members or paid £3.


    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.


  • Given the obvious quality (or lack thereof) of your research (witness your IHH embarrassment last night), why should anyone take anything you say about medicine seriously?

    Do you have any medical qualifications, or did you just get it from Alex Jones or a.n.other conspiracy website?

    Was I embarrassed last night? Unlike you I don't trawl the threads of a morning on tenterhooks to see what you may have said the previous evening. By all means complete my utter degradation by repeating whatever incisive shard of wisdom from you I may have missed if that will please you.

    As I've repeated (how many times are we up to now?) I expect intelligent readers to read my post, and decide whether they agree with the points made therein. If they think my post is utterly ridiculous they may choose to ignore. If they're not sure and want more information or supporting evidence, if I'm around I'll oblige. I wouldn't have thought this was a hard concept to assimilate, but we seem to be having great difficulty.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    Pulpstar said:

    Not able to log on here but my predictions will be:

    UKIP - 42.5
    Lab - 40.2
    Con - 12.3
    Grn - 3.1
    LD - 1.5
    MRL - 0.4

    If you work backwards, Lib Dem and Green and MRLP will sum through to 5% or thereabouts. Aside from Tories 1 in 20 casting very minor party votes makes sense.

    Going through to Con, well there will be a squeeze.

    A 14% drop in Labour looks eminently sensible, 40% is still a fair few votes. And the rest going to UKIP wraps up the maths nicely.
    I'm nearly with you - just think the South Asian voting block will magically tip it Labour's way.

  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    The theme song for this page should be "The Political Gambler" by Kenny Rogers

    "You've got to know when to Oldham, know when to fold 'em..."
  • Pulpstar said:

    @MikeK Might be near with his Lib Dem entry :D

    Our favourite LibDem by-election bar chart! :lol: :lol: :lol:

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Those who think UKIP will win on average think that UKIP will get 48%. This seems optimistic on their part, maybe the same people who predicted 100 UKIP MPs.''

    UKIP could get this by dint of a very very low labour turnout, I guess. IF the Guardian's characterisation of the seat is correct, labour will find it very hard to motivate those WWC voters who aren't put off by Corbyn.
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.
    There is a strategic inevitability about it. Unless the MPs found a way to remove Corbyn and replace with a moderate, his position internally gets stronger and his associates firm up their chances as his replacement. With the big union paymasters aligned with the hard left political views (except Trident), Labour have no hope of a Kinnock style recovery this side of 2020. Kinnock had large moderate union leaders, Labour2015 does not.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 22,608

    I've only been out-Kippered by MikeK so far :)

    Remind me of MikeK's UKIP forecast for the GE?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    UKIP 43.8
    Lab 42.2
    Con 8.6
    Minor 5.4
  • rcs1000 said:

    I've only been out-Kippered by MikeK so far :)

    Remind me of MikeK's UKIP forecast for the GE?
    I'll remind you of mine: 1.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108


    The biggest concentration I've read about in wine is 6 parts per million. Meaning you went on a huge rant about me being a muppet, and it was you who turned out to look like a complete chump. Don't apologise though please, it's already forgotten.

    Are you still claiming a tooth is a bone?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,640


    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    They were elected by their constituents. Those are the voters they have to represent.

    Their duty is to their electorate not Corbyn.

    Corbyn showed previous Labour leaders ZERO loyalty. He has no right to demand anything less than he was prepared to offer others in his position.

    He is a leader in name only. His Shadow Cabinet is against him. His MPs are against him.

    Let him run round the country leading his 'members' - and let the real politicians get on with trying to rebuild a Labour Party.

    We need a proper opposition party - Corbyn is not capable of delivering that.
  • Pulpstar said:

    @MikeSmithson You must be hopeful that turnout is squeezed to such a degree that those 500 or so stoic Lib Dems can save yr deposit :D

    Lib Dems are trying very hard to increase their votes % in the by election. If it fails that will be a knock back in the "LD fightback" campaign.
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.
    Disingenuous though to pretend it is a free vote when it isn't. Being honest and using your powers is one thing, being deceitful something else.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Harris_(British_politician)

    Name
    Tom Harris
    User

    Winner
    Labour
    Conservative %
    12.07
    Green %
    2.47
    Labour %
    43.56
    Liberal Democrat %
    5.27
    UKIP %
    36.06


    ?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,984
    I didn't scan the other predictions before I posted mine.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,635
    edited December 2015
    Pulpstar said:
    Different Tom Harris I expect: @tnjharris

  • He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    Had Corbyn shown the slightest bit of loyalty to previous leaders we might be in a different position now. What goes around comes around.

  • He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    Missing the point. Where you draw your leader from the parliamentary party then if he is so far out of agreement with them, then it is quite untenable. Corbyn Momentum Stopthewar know this and are intent on replacing the MPs to be in their own image.
    Labour is being transmogrified and those that do not like it will be wasting their breath trying to influence the members. They need to get out now. They need to blatantly start a parliamentary party that owes no loyalty to Corbyn and then all resign Corbyn's Labour.
    Do something or do nothing, the labour party they joined is finished.

  • He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    They were elected by their constituents. Those are the voters they have to represent.
    Their duty is to their electorate not Corbyn.
    Corbyn showed previous Labour leaders ZERO loyalty. He has no right to demand anything less than he was prepared to offer others in his position.
    He is a leader in name only. His Shadow Cabinet is against him. His MPs are against him.
    Let him run round the country leading his 'members' - and let the real politicians get on with trying to rebuild a Labour Party.
    We need a proper opposition party - Corbyn is not capable of delivering that.
    Fine words, but the money is with the hard left and the votes for the Leader and votes for the re-selection of many of their MPs are in the hands of the hard left. The destination for Labour is either:-
    1. It splits
    2. Mass deselections of the moderate MPs
    3. A combination of the above
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    FPT:



    "I did some research"

    I would be careful given your track record of 'research'.

    In all seriousness, be very careful about believing what you read on websites (and to a lesser extent the media) about medical issues. Too much of it is quackery, clickbait or money-fodder. Some of it can be actively injurious to your health.

    Actually, the opposite is true of the diet protocol I 'follow' (I'm not slavish). I follow a 'Weston A Price' diet. Price was a dentist who noted declining dental (and general) health in the US population in the early 20th century. He embarked on a mission to go around the world learning about the healthiest and longest lived societies - largely those untouched by industrialisation etc. From Eskimos, to African tribes, to Swiss villages. Such a thing can't be done these days - these peoples are gone.

    He found each society, though some were nearly vegeterian, some almost entirely carniverous etc., had in common certain 'sacred foods' that kept them healthy, free from disease and long lived.

    Look at today's society - we're being kept alive a bit longer by medical advances and greatly reduced deprivation, but healthier? Allergies and intolerances are out of control, cancer, heart and other diseases likewise. Who says our diet is healthier? 20 years ago fat was the enemy. It's now sugar. These are trends, not nutritional truths. The past is really the only place we can look to find out what's healthy - what worked generation to generation when there were no doctors. The unfashionable concept of wisdom. The 'risk' lies in following today's food fads.
    Again more pure unadulterated nonsense.

    Put simply, correlation is not causation. Pre industrialised diets contain virtually no refined sugar. The actual foods eaten are entirely irrelevant, what matters is no sugar. That's the core here and dressed up in all the insane psuedo-science doesn't change the basic concept.

    Now, clearly you went with the reduction in sugar and for people willing to do that, good luck to them. Personally I think sugar is a damn fine addition to diets and science has developed ways we can deal with relatively higher (but not completely stupidly high) levels of refined sugar through regular brushing and flouridation.

    But your nonsense about rinsing and the "evil" of flouride isn't a factor. The lack of sugar is.
  • I wouldn't characterise it in these terms but Hopi Sen has highlighted an important aspect of what's going on in Labour with the Syria vote:

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 44m44 minutes ago
    Since nobody seems to have written it, couple of tweets on why what Corbyn team are trying to do on Syria vote is nasty dirty politics..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 41m41 minutes ago
    A free vote is an agreement to disagree. No punishments follow, no disloyalty, a promise from leadership that they accept MPs own choices..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 38m38 minutes ago
    To have a free vote, MPs have to have faith that to disagree on this issue is not seen as breach of trust or betrayal of loyalty.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 36m36 minutes ago
    But what Corbyn is doing is something entirely different. He is offering a poisoned free vote. MPs are technically unwhipped but know..

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 35m35 minutes ago
    That from the leader there is no "agreement to disagree". He will not whip his agenda through Rosie W, but through Milne, the NEC & momentum

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 32m32 minutes ago
    So Corbyn isn't offering MPs a truce, or accepting different views. He's saying he won't punish dissent by whips, but by other means.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 30m30 minutes ago
    Corbyn's not offering MPs a free vote. He's inviting them to rebel in the knowledge he'll use a different sort of whip if they do.

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen · 5m5 minutes ago
    Another way to explain it:
    Under Corbyn, Rosie Winterton is "dignified" chief whip, but real whips are Milne, Lansman, Willsman, Fisher etc

    We keep hearing that Team Corbyn doesn't do nasty politics, its all about kinder gentler politics. The evidence so far is quite the opposite. Stuffing placemen, putting in place the chance to knee-cap dissenting voices by hard left grass roots operation, etc etc etc. This "free vote" is just another example.
    Just think what would be in store for the rest of us if that shower of c*nts ever took full control of Government in this country.

  • He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    They were elected by their constituents. Those are the voters they have to represent.

    Their duty is to their electorate not Corbyn.

    Corbyn showed previous Labour leaders ZERO loyalty. He has no right to demand anything less than he was prepared to offer others in his position.

    He is a leader in name only. His Shadow Cabinet is against him. His MPs are against him.

    Let him run round the country leading his 'members' - and let the real politicians get on with trying to rebuild a Labour Party.

    We need a proper opposition party - Corbyn is not capable of delivering that.
    Democracy is inconvenient. Labour MPs seem unable to accept that Jeremy Corbyn won fair and square and so cannot reach an accommodation with themselves about what that means.

    It's fine to be appalled by Jeremy Corbyn. I'm not a fan of him myself. But whose party is it? If MPs are out of step with the membership, why should the membership be ignored?

    The MPs have rethinking to do if they want members to rethink. If they don't like where the Labour party is going, the exit is clearly marked. If they don't want to leave, they need to fight their corner showing respect to the views that clearly won in September. Never mind Jeremy Corbyn, there are hundreds of thousands of party members to respect. That does not mean carrying on as before and treating the leader as an inconvenience to be ignored.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Me neither, that's the fun of it.
    dr_spyn said:

    I didn't scan the other predictions before I posted mine.


  • He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    Missing the point. Where you draw your leader from the parliamentary party then if he is so far out of agreement with them, then it is quite untenable. Corbyn Momentum Stopthewar know this and are intent on replacing the MPs to be in their own image.
    Labour is being transmogrified and those that do not like it will be wasting their breath trying to influence the members. They need to get out now. They need to blatantly start a parliamentary party that owes no loyalty to Corbyn and then all resign Corbyn's Labour.
    Do something or do nothing, the labour party they joined is finished.
    Spot on. But just as they could not act against Brown or EdMiliband, they lack the cojones to act decisively in numbers. A few may attempt a coup, but just look at the political appeasers in the shadow cabinet.
  • CD13 said:

    Mr 1983,

    Sola dosis facit venenum, as Paracelsus said - 'the dose makes the poison'.

    And you need to discriminate between acute and chronic doses. Cyanide taken continuously in very low doses isn't fatal, but a small amount taken all at once is.

    We're all made of chemicals. I'd rather have my e-numbers (all tested) rather than that dangerous" organic" stuff which could be deadly.

    Yes, the dose does make the poison, but that isn't to say that sustained small doses of something fatal in a larger dose is a good thing. On cyanide, the jury seems to be out, as studies haven't been made.
    http://www3.epa.gov/airtoxics/hlthef/cyanide.html

    You've made this point on artificial vs. natural foods before, and all I can say is it's bunk.
  • Me neither, that's the fun of it.

    dr_spyn said:

    I didn't scan the other predictions before I posted mine.

    I did not know how to and then smiled at the top 2 being close to the average....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,077
    edited December 2015


    He's using the powers at his disposal. His enemies have shown that they won't hesitate to do the same. He wouldn't have to do it if his MPs were willing to defer more to his personal mandate.

    He only has a mandate from a small selectorate. The MPs have a mandate from a real thing - the electorate.

    They should have the balls to act accordingly
    Labour do not contract out the selection of their leaders to Labour constituency voters. He got a landslide from the party members and supporters. More senior party members who dislike that outcome need to accept that and either seek to change members' minds or shut up. At the moment they're doing neither.
    Missing the point. Where you draw your leader from the parliamentary party then if he is so far out of agreement with them, then it is quite untenable. Corbyn Momentum Stopthewar know this and are intent on replacing the MPs to be in their own image.
    Labour is being transmogrified and those that do not like it will be wasting their breath trying to influence the members. They need to get out now. They need to blatantly start a parliamentary party that owes no loyalty to Corbyn and then all resign Corbyn's Labour.
    Do something or do nothing, the labour party they joined is finished.
    I remember when the Conservative - Lib Dem coalition was being put together, alot of the Lib Dem policies were taken on board. In those first few heady days alot were wondering if the Lib Dems had got too much out of the deal compared to the Tories.

    Corbyn will have to give in to his shadow cabinet on other issues, not just this but slowly, inevitably the 'moderates' will be heading to the jaws of death that are the Labour membership (As the Lib Dems did with the electorate).

    The Corbyn project is a long game and goes beyond just Jeremy himself.
  • isam said:

    The theme song for this page should be "The Political Gambler" by Kenny Rogers

    "You've got to know when to Oldham, know when to fold 'em..."

    Bravo!
  • Pulpstar said:

    Not able to log on here but my predictions will be:

    UKIP - 42.5
    Lab - 40.2
    Con - 12.3
    Grn - 3.1
    LD - 1.5
    MRL - 0.4

    If you work backwards, Lib Dem and Green and MRLP will sum through to 5% or thereabouts. Aside from Tories 1 in 20 casting very minor party votes makes sense.

    Going through to Con, well there will be a squeeze.

    A 14% drop in Labour looks eminently sensible, 40% is still a fair few votes. And the rest going to UKIP wraps up the maths nicely.
    I'm nearly with you - just think the South Asian voting block will magically tip it Labour's way.

    Yes. I think that and the quality of the candidate, combined with UKIP's poor ground game..and low turnout will be enough to see Labour home.

    This is a battle of who can be arsed. Not a Labour v. UKIP duel to the death.
This discussion has been closed.