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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The internal squabbles in Mr. Corbyn’s Labour – part 105

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The internal squabbles in Mr. Corbyn’s Labour – part 105

The tweet that LAB whip Graham Morris has now deleted. pic.twitter.com/BQ4b09Bn68

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Comments

  • I take it Scrooge McCorbyn never sent a Christmas message in the end?
  • It seems that free votes are more expensive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Third! Like a good Scottish Tory.
  • Tim gets a mention in a PB header!!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Tim gets a mention in a PB header!!

    Twice in a week!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    100% support in Wirral? We're they given a ballot with one option?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    The Left have always spent at least as much time arguing with and fighting each other as with their opponents. Nothing new in this.

    The reason we are seeing it now in Labour is because the changes to how the leader is elected have shown up the huge chasm between:-

    1. The membership and MPs;
    2. MPs and the leader, voted for by the members but not the leaders; and
    3. All of them and voters.

    God knows who is going to come out on top or indeed whether there will be anything to be on top of.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    I didn't get a chance to comment on the previous thread - but I thought it was interesting that a slight majority of people think that it is unlikely that the EU referendum will be in 2016. I know most people don't follow this religiously, but it's interesting that the public's view is different to that of the political commentariat.

    On topic, I think we're going to find out what the moderate Labour MPs are made of. If they allow Corbyn to get away with sacking his Shadow Foreign Sec then they are a done for.
  • Corbyn has a opportunity to show real leadership by purging mutinous elements. Benn, in particular, should suffer exemplary humiliation.
  • Evening all.

    When ‘Momentum Wirral’ are in a position to call the shots, then Labour really are in trouble.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    tlg86 said:

    I didn't get a chance to comment on the previous thread - but I thought it was interesting that a slight majority of people think that it is unlikely that the EU referendum will be in 2016. I know most people don't follow this religiously, but it's interesting that the public's view is different to that of the political commentariat.

    On topic, I think we're going to find out what the moderate Labour MPs are made of. If they allow Corbyn to get away with sacking his Shadow Foreign Sec then they are a done for.

    Non-Corbynite MPs are in the acutest of dilemmas. If they allow Corbyn to sack or demote Benn because of his perceived disloyalty over the Syria vote, they distance themselves even more from the membership because a vote on military action in the Middle East is about the most unpopular policy possible on which to rebel in today's Labour party.

    They will be seen as rebelling on an issue on which they are in a minority amongst MPs let alone among the wider party and on an issue about which plenty of people in the country have reservations, some of them legitimate (i.e. not the STW bollocks).

    If they were to rebel they need to lay the groundwork to make this an issue about something else. They need to fight the battle on their own ground. They haven't even begun to do this. So it will either fizzle out - or it will look as if moderate MPs are just Blairite warmongers - or it will make it difficult for others (either in the wider party or in the unions) to join them.

    Benn made some good points about IS and about fighting fascists rather than befriending them. But how many Labour MPs - moderate or otherwise - have challenged their party's unfathomable indulgence of Islamists over the years, even before Corbyn came along? If they had it might be easier to make this an issue of principle - about Corbyn's associations and views, of which his refusal to do anything serious about IS is just the latest example. But they haven't and so it will be all too easy to paint them as Blairites. And being scared of that, of losing their jobs, of being isolated, of being called Tories etc, it will be all too easy to find lots of reasons for doing nothing.

  • Corbynism sweeping the Labour Party....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2015
    I see Tim hasn't changed still banging on about Public School educated idiots...only thing that has changed is the colour of the team they play for.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    True Leninism. Alway concentrate on the enemy within. It is far more significant than the enemy without.

    This demented old fool is going to kill Labour. They don't really deserve any better for being so stupid but I am an old softy and feel sorry for mental incompetents.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    We are both stupid and backward...
    Be optimistic - some people are only one of those, not both.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2015
    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Undemocratic is a bit of a stretch.

    and 95%? Here are the countries that use FPTP, far more than 5% of number of countries, and population by far:

    Antigua and Barbuda
    Azerbaijan
    Bahamas
    Barbados
    Bangladesh
    Belize
    Bermuda
    Botswana
    Canada
    Cayman Islands
    Cote d'Ivoire
    Cook Islands
    Dominica
    Eritrea
    Ethiopia
    Gabon
    Grenada
    Ghana
    Gambia
    India
    Jamaica
    Kenya
    Kuwait
    Lebanon
    Lao People's Democratic Republic
    Saint Lucia
    Liberia
    Marshall Islands
    Burma (Myanmar)
    Maldives
    Malawi
    Malaysia
    Micronesia
    Nigeria
    Niue
    Oman
    Palau
    Saint Kitts and Nevis
    Saint Lucia
    Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
    Samoa
    Seychelles
    Singapore
    Sierra Leone
    Solomon Islands
    Swaziland
    Tanzania
    Tonga
    Trinidad and Tobago
    Tuvalu
    Uganda
    United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
    United States of America
    Virgin Islands
    Yemen
    Zambia

    (thanks wiki)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    People focusing on the nutters in Team Corbyn's ranks almost makes me sorry for the non nutters. Not enough to think the politics of Team Corbyn are favourable for the country, but it must be frustrating for them - even as many nutters as there are, it probably isn't 100%.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited December 2015
    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    If you had unified behind a single, better alternative you might have got it changed.

    But you are stupid and backward, as you said.
  • murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    What rubbish. What traps them is that the moderate MPs - other than being against Corbyn or not in favour of him - have nothing to say (what does being a moderate Labour MP these days actually mean?) and don't have courage, even if they do have something to say.

    If they had either they'd be fighting for their party. We had 3 "moderate" MPs challenge Corbyn for the leadership this summer and, really, can anyone remember a single memorable thing any of them said or any policy they proposed (beyond the inevitable child care and being polite on the internet - which is less a political manifesto than the role description of a junior HR employee)?

    That's the problem: 2 senior and experienced ex-Cabinet Ministers and one great hope and they said nothing of any interest. No wonder a bearded Leftie serving up 1950's Marxism mixed in with a bit of fashionable 3rd world anti-Americanism and anti-colonialism and quasi-pacifism was able to wow them in the aisles.

  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2015

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Galactic Senate is elected by FPTP! (in my mind at least)
  • Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Not really. A further 3% or more swing from Labour to the Liberal/SDP Alliance in 1983 would have seen how many more seats change hands?

    FPTP was supposed to make Labour in Scotland strong but the beauty of FPTP is that there is a devastatingly brutal and bloody tipping point at some stage. If Corbyn's Labour scored in the teens with an SDP party in the high 20s then Corbyn's Labour would be all but wiped out.
  • murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pedant alert: it's Grahame Morris not Graham.
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
  • RobD said:

    Undemocratic is a bit of a stretch.

    and 95%? Here are the countries that use FPTP, far more than 5% of number of countries, and population by far:

    Antigua and Barbuda
    Azerbaijan
    Bahamas
    Barbados
    Bangladesh
    Belize
    Bermuda
    Botswana
    Canada
    Cayman Islands
    Cote d'Ivoire
    Cook Islands
    Dominica
    Eritrea
    Ethiopia
    Gabon
    Grenada
    Ghana
    Gambia
    India
    Jamaica
    Kenya
    Kuwait
    Lebanon
    Lao People's Democratic Republic
    Saint Lucia
    Liberia
    Marshall Islands
    Burma (Myanmar)
    Maldives
    Malawi
    Malaysia
    Micronesia
    Nigeria
    Niue
    Oman
    Palau
    Saint Kitts and Nevis
    Saint Lucia
    Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
    Samoa
    Seychelles
    Singapore
    Sierra Leone
    Solomon Islands
    Swaziland
    Tanzania
    Tonga
    Trinidad and Tobago
    Tuvalu
    Uganda
    United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
    United States of America
    Virgin Islands
    Yemen
    Zambia

    (thanks wiki)

    Not only considerably more than 5% of countries but look at the size of many of those countries, including the USA and India! Billions of people vote using FPTP I challenge anyone to find a single voting system used by more people.

    But obviously every Tom, Dick and Harry micronation in Europe is all that matters rather than billions of people elsewhere.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited December 2015
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
    A previous Prime Minister was murdered by Tamil Tigers?
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    Idiotic nonsense. It is in essence the MOST democratic system. Most popular winner wins, pure and simple. Not prizes for everyone garbage of PR.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2015
    Oooh a discussion about electoral voting systems.

    On topic, Corbynmania is like an STD. It might have been fun getting it, but it will be bloody painful to get rid of, and if you don't get rid of it...
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
    A previous Prime Minister was murdered by Tamil Tigers?
    I don't condone that but there is no smoke without fire. The atrocities of the IPKF were horrific among the Tamil people...
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
    A previous Prime Minister was murdered by Tamil Tigers?
    I don't condone that but there is no smoke without fire. The atrocities of the IPKF were horrific among the Tamil people...
    No smoke without fire is up there with guilty unless proven innocent.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    I've been against FPTP all my adult life but, to bring honest, there's an advantage to it when one of your main parties has fallen into the hands of extremists.

    FPTP really forces successful parties to be broad churches and coalitions are formed within parties not between them. That can be opaque but if parties work with the grain of the system not against it (as Labour is now looking to do, by breaking up its internal coalition) it can work.
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
    A previous Prime Minister was murdered by Tamil Tigers?
    I don't condone that but there is no smoke without fire. The atrocities of the IPKF were horrific among the Tamil people...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Peace_Keeping_Force

    The force was initially not expected to be involved in any significant combat by the Indian High Command.[2] However, within a few months, the IPKF became embroiled in battle with the LTTE to enforce peace. The differences started with LTTE trying to dominate the Interim Administrative Council, and also refusing to disarm, which was a pre-condition to enforce peace in the island. Soon, these differences led to the LTTE attacking the IPKF, at which point the IPKF decided to disarm the LTTE militants, by force if required. In the two years it was in northern Sri Lanka, the IPKF launched a number of combat operations aimed at destroying the LTTE-led insurgency. Given LTTE's tactics in guerrilla warfare and using women and child soldiers to fight battles, it soon escalated into repeated skirmishes between the IPKF and LTTE.

    BTW are you still posting from your mum's basement in Madras?

    (hat-tip GeoffM)
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited December 2015

    Corbyn has a opportunity to show real leadership by purging mutinous elements. Benn, in particular, should suffer exemplary humiliation.

    Yes, he should get rid of all those people who have defied the leadership. But why stop at Benn? There's one very senior figure in the Labour party who has repeatedly defied the leadership, voting against it around 500 times according to one estimate, including voting in support of the aims of murderers when he felt it suited him.

    Do you think Corbyn should purge that deeply unsavoury and rebellious character? Or would it prove a little difficult for him to sack himself?

    Although if his use of numbers in any way approximates to those of Wirral Momentum, he probably thinks it was the Labour leadership voted 500 times against him!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    I'm slightly wary about saying "less democratic", because there are lots of other countries, which are definitely functioning liberal democracies, that have other systems.

    Perhaps it would be better to say that we have a system which has served us well over a very long period of time, and which broadly reflects the will of the people. And, even though it certainly has flaws, the vast majority of Brits prefer it to all the other systems.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    Most of us do vote for parties though. That's to say, we vote for an individual candidate but the only characteristic they have that matters is party affiliation.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Not really. A further 3% or more swing from Labour to the Liberal/SDP Alliance in 1983 would have seen how many more seats change hands?

    FPTP was supposed to make Labour in Scotland strong but the beauty of FPTP is that there is a devastatingly brutal and bloody tipping point at some stage. If Corbyn's Labour scored in the teens with an SDP party in the high 20s then Corbyn's Labour would be all but wiped out.
    Probably something like 180 Labour to 55 Lib/SDP.

    To my mind the tipping point is a glitch, not a benefit of the system. Parties with significant support suddenly find themselves bereft of representation. I don't think it's good that the half of Scots who voted for Unionist parties got 5% of MP's.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited December 2015

    @richarddlewis it's the voice of the people. But now the poll has been taken over by people brain washed by the right wing media

    — Momentum Wirral (@MomentumWirral) December 28, 2015

    @gingerliberal @MomentumWirral @richarddlewis is that the same excuse as to what happened in the election?

    — Gareth Milner (@mrgarethm) December 29, 2015

    EDIT - Phew, I've checked and this does actually appear to be a spoof account! Not quite all hope is lost!
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    ydoethur said:

    @richarddlewis it's the voice of the people. But now the poll has been taken over by people brain washed by the right wing media

    — Momentum Wirral (@MomentumWirral) December 28, 2015

    @gingerliberal @MomentumWirral @richarddlewis is that the same excuse as to what happened in the election?

    — Gareth Milner (@mrgarethm) December 29, 2015

    lol, false consciousness
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Not really. A further 3% or more swing from Labour to the Liberal/SDP Alliance in 1983 would have seen how many more seats change hands?

    FPTP was supposed to make Labour in Scotland strong but the beauty of FPTP is that there is a devastatingly brutal and bloody tipping point at some stage. If Corbyn's Labour scored in the teens with an SDP party in the high 20s then Corbyn's Labour would be all but wiped out.
    Probably something like 180 Labour to 55 Lib/SDP.

    To my mind the tipping point is a glitch, not a benefit of the system. Parties with significant support suddenly find themselves bereft of representation. I don't think it's good that the half of Scots who voted for Unionist parties got 5% of MP's.
    Nor that UKIP garnered 4x the vote of the SNP but has 2% of the representation.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
    A previous Prime Minister was murdered by Tamil Tigers?
    I don't condone that but there is no smoke without fire. The atrocities of the IPKF were horrific among the Tamil people...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Peace_Keeping_Force

    The force was initially not expected to be involved in any significant combat by the Indian High Command.[2] However, within a few months, the IPKF became embroiled in battle with the LTTE to enforce peace. The differences started with LTTE trying to dominate the Interim Administrative Council, and also refusing to disarm, which was a pre-condition to enforce peace in the island. Soon, these differences led to the LTTE attacking the IPKF, at which point the IPKF decided to disarm the LTTE militants, by force if required. In the two years it was in northern Sri Lanka, the IPKF launched a number of combat operations aimed at destroying the LTTE-led insurgency. Given LTTE's tactics in guerrilla warfare and using women and child soldiers to fight battles, it soon escalated into repeated skirmishes between the IPKF and LTTE.

    BTW are you still posting from your mum's basement in Madras?

    (hat-tip GeoffM)
    You need to get out more and meet some Tamil people who'll educate you on what happened vis-a-vis the IPKF.

    PS - aren't you the one who lives with your Mum? The rest of us have grown up, married, started a family etc...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No, it's not. It is a representative system that reflects the views of a plurality of a defined geographic area. These representatives then meet and, in aggregate, select a government.

    That is perfectly democratic - just because you don't like the outcome it doesn't make it inherently undemocratic.
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    I think that it stretches things to call FPTP 'Completely' Democratic. It is partially democratic as was a previous system that excluded women.
    There is no need to break the constituency link when improving the system, for example STV in multi member constituencies keeps the link and negates the 'vote for a party rather than an individual representative' argument.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    BTW are you still posting from your mum's basement in Madras?

    (hat-tip GeoffM)

    Surely you mean Chennai? ;)
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Evidence for the "95% of the world", please!
    Ok an exaggeration. But the trend is away from the archaic FPTP system...
    India's % of the world's voting-age population is....?
    No offense but India and archaic go hand in hand. After all, India has a Prime Minister who has lots of blood on his hands...
    A previous Prime Minister was murdered by Tamil Tigers?
    I don't condone that but there is no smoke without fire. The atrocities of the IPKF were horrific among the Tamil people...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Peace_Keeping_Force

    The force was initially not expected to be involved in any significant combat by the Indian High Command.[2] However, within a few months, the IPKF became embroiled in battle with the LTTE to enforce peace. The differences started with LTTE trying to dominate the Interim Administrative Council, and also refusing to disarm, which was a pre-condition to enforce peace in the island. Soon, these differences led to the LTTE attacking the IPKF, at which point the IPKF decided to disarm the LTTE militants, by force if required. In the two years it was in northern Sri Lanka, the IPKF launched a number of combat operations aimed at destroying the LTTE-led insurgency. Given LTTE's tactics in guerrilla warfare and using women and child soldiers to fight battles, it soon escalated into repeated skirmishes between the IPKF and LTTE.

    BTW are you still posting from your mum's basement in Madras?

    (hat-tip GeoffM)
    You need to get out more and meet some Tamil people who'll educate you on what happened vis-a-vis the IPKF.

    Our neighbours are Tamils, thank you very much. And very nice people, unlike YOU.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2015

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Belatedly, Paris. There's very often a mismatch between price and sophistication: a class thing perhaps.... I'd have a look at that Mr and. Mrs Smith website. Paris more than London or Berlin is a city that is really different depending on where you stay. I like the 18th but that's where I used to live and if you stay outside the obvious tourist bits it's genuinely lovely.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    After 11 years, our old LG 27" TV (purchased to watch Battlestar Gallactica!) has waved bye-bye and gone to the great recycler in the sky. It has served us well, but it was starting to show its age: parts of the picture were fading for the last year before it finally went mute.

    So we're after a new TV. We could fit a 48" into the space, but Mrs J has put her foot down with a firm hand and limited me to a maximum 32". Apparently our wedding pictures are more important: a rather odd set of priorities to my mind! :)

    Does anyone have any advice what to look for wrt features? We're thinking of up to £400. I suppose WiFi, Freeview HD, 1080p, at least two HDMI inputs and Smart.

    Is there anything else I should look for? Amazon Prime compatibility perhaps?

  • Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    No it is not. Legally you are voting for an individual. If you are too stupid to realise that then that is your lookout.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Not really. A further 3% or more swing from Labour to the Liberal/SDP Alliance in 1983 would have seen how many more seats change hands?

    FPTP was supposed to make Labour in Scotland strong but the beauty of FPTP is that there is a devastatingly brutal and bloody tipping point at some stage. If Corbyn's Labour scored in the teens with an SDP party in the high 20s then Corbyn's Labour would be all but wiped out.
    Probably something like 180 Labour to 55 Lib/SDP.

    To my mind the tipping point is a glitch, not a benefit of the system. Parties with significant support suddenly find themselves bereft of representation. I don't think it's good that the half of Scots who voted for Unionist parties got 5% of MP's.
    I do. Half the votes did not go to a unified bloc of Unionist parties. They went to completely different parties like Labour and the Tories who have nothing in common except coincidentally being unionists. These parties lost, if from the ashes of this election a broad church unionist party arose that won half the vote then it'd deserve a large slab of seats. If no such broad church can be made then it's not.
  • Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu
  • Off-topic:

    After 11 years, our old LG 27" TV (purchased to watch Battlestar Gallactica!) has waved bye-bye and gone to the great recycler in the sky. It has served us well, but it was starting to show its age: parts of the picture were fading for the last year before it finally went mute.

    So we're after a new TV. We could fit a 48" into the space, but Mrs J has put her foot down with a firm hand and limited me to a maximum 32". Apparently our wedding pictures are more important: a rather odd set of priorities to my mind! :)

    Does anyone have any advice what to look for wrt features? We're thinking of up to £400. I suppose WiFi, Freeview HD, 1080p, at least two HDMI inputs and Smart.

    Is there anything else I should look for? Amazon Prime compatibility perhaps?

    For 32", all the brand spanking UHD TV etc are pointless. You should therefore be able to pick up a really good 1080p TV for a lot less than £400 these days.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2015

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    No it is not. Legally you are voting for an individual. If you are too stupid to realise that then that is your lookout.
    I'm talking reality, not theory!

    Joe Bloggs down the road voted Labour not for Mr. A.N.Other - he may have ticked the box for A.N.Other but it's the party he's voted for! It's the party he relates with not the individual!
  • TomTom Posts: 273
    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    What rubbish. What traps them is that the moderate MPs - other than being against Corbyn or not in favour of him - have nothing to say (what does being a moderate Labour MP these days actually mean?) and don't have courage, even if they do have something to say.

    If they had either they'd be fighting for their party. We had 3 "moderate" MPs challenge Corbyn for the leadership this summer and, really, can anyone remember a single memorable thing any of them said or any policy they proposed (beyond the inevitable child care and being polite on the internet - which is less a political manifesto than the role description of a junior HR employee)?

    That's the problem: 2 senior and experienced ex-Cabinet Ministers and one great hope and they said nothing of any interest. No wonder a bearded Leftie serving up 1950's Marxism mixed in with a bit of fashionable 3rd world anti-Americanism and anti-colonialism and quasi-pacifism was able to wow them in the aisles.

    No different from the Conservatives or for that matter the Lib Dems. 'I will try to manage a mixed market economy with public spending of roughly 40% of GDP, and nudge things towards the interests of 'our people'/hard working people' isn't inspiring but what happens in what most would regard as well governed countries. Labour is currently going through a spasm where it doesn't want to listen to that, and doesn't have anyone who can put a spin on it that gets the pulses racing or touches the prejudices of its membership.
  • I posted this a few hours ago, but seems apt here

    This week is an example of how Cameron and the Tories should be on the ropes, over the floods, and their cutting of flood prevention measures.

    But what are Labour discussing this week? Sacking the shadow cabinet members who Jez doesn't like for not voting the same way as him on a free vote.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    But then no other leader has started with such weak support in their Parliamentary party, nor with such a record of rebelling against past leaders.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    The problem with that theory is that 9m people just voted for the brand of Labour being pushed by the "dissenters" while a selectorate of 100k voted for Corbyn's brand of Labour.
  • Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Would that be THE Perry Pontac. He is a Labour man is he not?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    But despite that she still kept on all of them except Mark Carlisle, who remains in a field of stiff competition the second worst Education Secretary* this country has ever had, and Norman St John Stevas, who kept insulting her, in a very personal way, in public. She even promoted Francis Pym at one stage, and made Willie Whitelaw her deputy. Admittedly Jim Prior ended up in Northern Ireland, but he was still in the Cabinet. This appeased their supporters in the country and made the ministers look weak in the eyes of their fellow MPs, enhancing Thatcher's power and prestige. Gradually, as they grew older, she eased them out one at a time and replaced them with men (usually) who were more in step with her. That transformed the Conservative party, shifting it dramatically rightwards, but at the same time still left it more than capable of winning general elections by large margins.

    For disagreeing on a point of policy where Corbyn had agreed to a free vote, the penalty appears to be rapid dismissal. There are no prizes for guessing what the effect will be on his many enemies. Moreover, Benn could be a lot more dangerous as an articulate, high profile and respected figure on the backbenches, while Corbyn will, if he confines himself to the hard left, have pretty much nobody of any talent or experience left at all to support him and will have alienated Labour's voter base.

    That's bad strategy and bad politics, and it will end badly for him.

    *Kenneth Baker and the dreadful first National Curriculum is a difficult one to beat.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Wanderer said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    Most of us do vote for parties though. That's to say, we vote for an individual candidate but the only characteristic they have that matters is party affiliation.
    We vote in arbitrary, meaningless units which no-one cares about for a selection of donkeys drawn from closed lists of one. Demographic distribution and change decides the outcome almost as much as the votes do.

    Oh, and for those who can even get off their arses to participate in such a bankrupt system, for the past three elections the majority came away from the polling stations empty-handed, electing no-one...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Perhaps Mr. Pontac's account and that of the leafleter (if he exists) would differ.
  • ydoethur said:

    Corbyn has a opportunity to show real leadership by purging mutinous elements. Benn, in particular, should suffer exemplary humiliation.

    Yes, he should get rid of all those people who have defied the leadership. But why stop at Benn? There's one very senior figure in the Labour party who has repeatedly defied the leadership, voting against it around 500 times according to one estimate, including voting in support of the aims of murderers when he felt it suited him.

    Do you think Corbyn should purge that deeply unsavoury and rebellious character? Or would it prove a little difficult for him to sack himself?

    Although if his use of numbers in any way approximates to those of Wirral Momentum, he probably thinks it was the Labour leadership voted 500 times against him!
    Corbyn rebelled from the back benches. Benn can spend what remains of his career there and rebel to his heart's content. It's clear that he can't serve as Shadow Foreign Secretary under Corbyn. A decent man would have resigned by now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    The other problem with that view is that it is highly hypocritical by Corbyn. He was the one who came in talking about having a robust debate and is now intent on silencing the people who disagree with him. Where has rge robust debate gone, the new politics and the debate?

    Corbyn is just like any other leftist dictator thin skinned and drunk with power given to him by a few motivated activists.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Tom said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    What rubbish. What traps them is that the moderate MPs - other than being against Corbyn or not in favour of him - have nothing to say (what does being a moderate Labour MP these days actually mean?) and don't have courage, even if they do have something to say.

    If they had either they'd be fighting for their party. We had 3 "moderate" MPs challenge Corbyn for the leadership this summer and, really, can anyone remember a single memorable thing any of them said or any policy they proposed (beyond the inevitable child care and being polite on the internet - which is less a political manifesto than the role description of a junior HR employee)?

    That's the problem: 2 senior and experienced ex-Cabinet Ministers and one great hope and they said nothing of any interest. No wonder a bearded Leftie serving up 1950's Marxism mixed in with a bit of fashionable 3rd world anti-Americanism and anti-colonialism and quasi-pacifism was able to wow them in the aisles.

    No different from the Conservatives or for that matter the Lib Dems. 'I will try to manage a mixed market economy with public spending of roughly 40% of GDP, and nudge things towards the interests of 'our people'/hard working people' isn't inspiring but what happens in what most would regard as well governed countries. Labour is currently going through a spasm where it doesn't want to listen to that, and doesn't have anyone who can put a spin on it that gets the pulses racing or touches the prejudices of its membership.
    Very well put indeed. The demand for an inspiring message is self-defeating. The fact that we live in a stable prosperous country is inspiring in itself. Keeping the show on the road with a nudge here and a tweak there is a noble objective.
  • Sean_F said:

    Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Perhaps Mr. Pontac's account and that of the leafleter (if he exists) would differ.
    I predict many more claims of Islamophobia and racism as we lead up to polling day...
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    MaxPB said:

    The other problem with that view is that it is highly hypocritical by Corbyn. He was the one who came in talking about having a robust debate and is now intent on silencing the people who disagree with him. Where has rge robust debate gone, the new politics and the debate?

    Corbyn is just like any other leftist dictator thin skinned and drunk with power given to him by a few motivated activists.

    For once, I agree! ;)
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2015
    DELETE
  • ydoethur said:

    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    [snip]
    "She was a Tigress surrounded by Hamsters." - John Biffen, 1990.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    ydoethur said:

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    That's the difference between the Right and (some of) the Left. The Right - even the very Right like Thatcher - understand that there are other points of view. The Corbynistas just can't comprehend how anyone can have a different opinion to their's.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 595

    I posted this a few hours ago, but seems apt here

    This week is an example of how Cameron and the Tories should be on the ropes, over the floods, and their cutting of flood prevention measures.

    But what are Labour discussing this week? Sacking the shadow cabinet members who Jez doesn't like for not voting the same way as him on a free vote.

    The Somerset floods of a few years back didn't seem to do the Tories any harm there in May, I doubt these will/would either regardless of who is Labour Leader.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    That's the difference between the Right and (some of) the Left. The Right - even the very Right like Thatcher - understand that there are other points of view. The Corbynistas just can't comprehend how anyone can have a different opinion to their's.
    That's because leftism is like a religion. They are right and everyone else is going to hell. Anyone who isn't with them needs to he converted and those who refuse should die or something to that effect.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited December 2015

    ydoethur said:

    Corbyn has a opportunity to show real leadership by purging mutinous elements. Benn, in particular, should suffer exemplary humiliation.

    Yes, he should get rid of all those people who have defied the leadership. But why stop at Benn? There's one very senior figure in the Labour party who has repeatedly defied the leadership, voting against it around 500 times according to one estimate, including voting in support of the aims of murderers when he felt it suited him.

    Do you think Corbyn should purge that deeply unsavoury and rebellious character? Or would it prove a little difficult for him to sack himself?

    Although if his use of numbers in any way approximates to those of Wirral Momentum, he probably thinks it was the Labour leadership voted 500 times against him!
    Corbyn rebelled from the back benches. Benn can spend what remains of his career there and rebel to his heart's content. It's clear that he can't serve as Shadow Foreign Secretary under Corbyn. A decent man would have resigned by now.
    Corbyn also said Maria Eagle could disagree with him over Trident, and that he would allow all MPs a free vote on Syria. He has now reneged on these promises, conclusively proving (if proof were still needed!) that he is not a decent man and does not deserve to be treated with any respect or consideration by the people he gave those promises to. Are you saying that he was lying, or does he suffer from some mental disturbance?

    In one way I agree with you. Benn should refuse to serve on the terms Corbyn is offering, because he changes them on a whim, apparently according to how full of hate he is for those people who dare to point out when he is completely wrong (which is of course most of the time). That is neither helpful nor democratic. Moreover, since Corbyn has no actual policy positions, merely a list of things he is against (some of which he drops the moment it is expedient, e.g. he is opposed to violence on principle but makes an exception when it is being meted out to the Tories or Americans) Labour's policy platform is incoherent and at times ridiculous - last month there was absurd spectacle of Labour MPs defying a three-line-whip to vote for party policy, agreed by conference (which Corbyn also appears to be in favour of in principle, but only when it makes the right decision).

    Benn should therefore resign and say it is because Corbyn is too stupid and indecisive to lead the Labour party. It would be richly entertaining and have the advantage (from all the evidence we have) of being true.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    No it is not. Legally you are voting for an individual. If you are too stupid to realise that then that is your lookout.
    I'm talking reality, not theory!

    Joe Bloggs down the road voted Labour not for Mr. A.N.Other - he may have ticked the box for A.N.Other but it's the party he's voted for! It's the party he relates with not the individual!
    I have temporarily escaped the rellies and have claret, stilton and Agatha Christie on iPlayer, so I will not let you disrupt my good mood, but this really trips my pedant gene. Richard_Tyndall is correct on this point: the voter votes for the *person* in UK MP elections, not the *party*. I appreciate that some people sincerely believe otherwise, but factually they are wrong.
  • TomTom Posts: 273
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    That's the difference between the Right and (some of) the Left. The Right - even the very Right like Thatcher - understand that there are other points of view. The Corbynistas just can't comprehend how anyone can have a different opinion to their's.
    That's because leftism is like a religion. They are right and everyone else is going to hell. Anyone who isn't with them needs to he converted and those who refuse should die or something to that effect.
    While that does apply to Corbynites one only has to read through any PB thread to realise that isn't the sole prerogative of the left.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    100% of voters vote for an individual (can't be bothered to look up turnout)
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Here is a list of Amazon Prime compatible devices. Enjoy!

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/ontv/devices

    Off-topic:

    After 11 years, our old LG 27" TV (purchased to watch Battlestar Gallactica!) has waved bye-bye and gone to the great recycler in the sky. It has served us well, but it was starting to show its age: parts of the picture were fading for the last year before it finally went mute.

    So we're after a new TV. We could fit a 48" into the space, but Mrs J has put her foot down with a firm hand and limited me to a maximum 32". Apparently our wedding pictures are more important: a rather odd set of priorities to my mind! :)

    Does anyone have any advice what to look for wrt features? We're thinking of up to £400. I suppose WiFi, Freeview HD, 1080p, at least two HDMI inputs and Smart.

    Is there anything else I should look for? Amazon Prime compatibility perhaps?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    No it is not. Legally you are voting for an individual. If you are too stupid to realise that then that is your lookout.
    I'm talking reality, not theory!

    Joe Bloggs down the road voted Labour not for Mr. A.N.Other - he may have ticked the box for A.N.Other but it's the party he's voted for! It's the party he relates with not the individual!
    How do you know? Did you ask him?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Tom said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    That's the difference between the Right and (some of) the Left. The Right - even the very Right like Thatcher - understand that there are other points of view. The Corbynistas just can't comprehend how anyone can have a different opinion to their's.
    That's because leftism is like a religion. They are right and everyone else is going to hell. Anyone who isn't with them needs to he converted and those who refuse should die or something to that effect.
    While that does apply to Corbynites one only has to read through any PB thread to realise that isn't the sole prerogative of the left.
    Fair point, but I think there are enough of us on here who will call the Government out when we think they are making mistakes.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    A few numbers on the labour party membership.

    At the time of the leadership election total membership stood at 292,505 (that's full members (not the £3 registered supporters, or Trade union Affiliated supporters)

    Of theses:

    121,751 Voted Corbyn
    123,769 Voted for one of the other 3
    and approximately 45,000 did not vote, (for what must be a range of reasons)

    Since then there are reports that:

    1) Labour Party membership has increased to 380,000, suggesting that 90,000 new members have joined and presumably they approve of Coybyn,

    2) that 30,000 members have left the party. Presumably because they disapprove of Coybn.


    So if the leadership election was refought today, amongst full members the results could look like this

    Corbyn - 210,000
    Others - 95,000

    (All of these numbers are approximant and gleaned from random news repots so I would be grateful of any more accurate numbers from any place)

    This to my mind puts Corbyn is an almost unassailable position, and more to the point it means that when he does go his replacements is likely to be form the same mold e.g. John McDonnall.

    The only way I see this changing are 3 very unlikely cinereous:

    1) A huge numbers of new moderate members join/rejoin.

    2) A large proportion of the Coybenits have a 'Road to Demascse' conversion and start supporting a moderate.

    3) A large number of the Coybenits get board and leave the party they have just taken over.

    I'm not righting the obituary just yet, but this is why I feel that the labour party has started a walk to the political fringe, and is unlikely to tern back.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Charles said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:


    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.

    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    No it is not. Legally you are voting for an individual. If you are too stupid to realise that then that is your lookout.
    I'm talking reality, not theory!

    Joe Bloggs down the road voted Labour not for Mr. A.N.Other - he may have ticked the box for A.N.Other but it's the party he's voted for! It's the party he relates with not the individual!
    How do you know? Did you ask him?
    No doubt research has been done on this but the number of people who vote on anything but the candidates' party affiliation must be tiny.

    One indication of this is that everyone takes the question "how did you/will you vote" to refer to party not candidate. If you ask me how I voted in May, you would probably think I was being deliberately obtuse if I said that I voted for Ms Rowley and left it at that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    MaxPB said:

    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    The problem with that theory is that 9m people just voted for the brand of Labour being pushed by the "dissenters" while a selectorate of 100k voted for Corbyn's brand of Labour.
    The first 8 million of Labour's vote is completely meaningless. They'll get this forevermore, yes even with Corbyn.
    For all his faults, Miliband got 800,000 more votes than that chump Brown !
  • Charles said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    To the sensible Labour members, councillors, MEPs and MPs, please just jump. The revolution has happened and the lunatics are now running the asylum. Get out while you still can, it might be difficult at first but it's nothing compared to what Corbyn and his fellow travellers have planned. They've waited patiently for over 30 years for this moment, they're not going anywhere.

    First Past the Post traps them in the Labour Party.
    Just shows what a truly crap system First Past the Post is. 95% of the World use something better but we in the UK choose to use this archaic and undemocratic system.

    We are both stupid and backward...
    Bullshit. More people vote using FPTP than ANY other system.
    For now maybe because of a few "large" countries but the tide is turning against FPTP - in 50 years time it will probably be extinct.

    It is in essence a VERY undemocratic system.
    No its not. It a system designed to elect a representative for a defined constituency who is then sent forward to a legislature on behalf of that constituency. As such it is completely democratic. What you apparently want is to change not only the voting system but also the basis upon which we vote - having us vote for a party rather than an individual representative. That is certainly less democratic than what we have now.
    What % of the population actually vote for an individual - the current system is party based!
    100% of voters vote for an individual (can't be bothered to look up turnout)
    The voter has to vote for a list of individuals, I think that party symbols were only added fairly recently.
    However what goes through an individuals mind when faced with the paper is more difficult to determine. Trying not to be too pedantic, I suspect that most would vote for their preferred party rather than an individual
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    It is clear Jeremy Corbyn has detected weaknesses in the chi of some of his shadow cabinet colleagues which has caused energy blockages and low karma.He is quite right to identify their personal development needs and address their weaknesses.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Sean_F said:

    Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Perhaps Mr. Pontac's account and that of the leafleter (if he exists) would differ.
    I predict many more claims of Islamophobia and racism as we lead up to polling day...
    I'm not sure that the Labour party are wise to emphasize Mr Khan's religion by constantly drawing attention to it in claims against his opponent. A very large number of electors do not live in inner London....
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    The problem with that theory is that 9m people just voted for the brand of Labour being pushed by the "dissenters" while a selectorate of 100k voted for Corbyn's brand of Labour.
    The first 8 million of Labour's vote is completely meaningless. They'll get this forevermore, yes even with Corbyn.
    For all his faults, Miliband got 800,000 more votes than that chump Brown !
    Did people once say the same about the Liberal vote?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    William_H said:

    Lets try to be sensible here. Corbyn has been incredibly, nay, ridiculously tolerant of Labour dissenters. Mostly out of political weakness rather than conviction, but its still true.

    No other leader would have tolerated the sort of open dissent that's been going on within cabinet. No one aspiring to really be leader can - fundamentally at the general election Corbyn is supposed to be Labour's candidate for Prime Minister, and that's not viable if Cabinet ministers feel that they are entitled to ignore him.

    If Team Corbyn are intent on fighting LAB dissenters, LAB dissenters have given them absolutely no choice.

    The problem with that theory is that 9m people just voted for the brand of Labour being pushed by the "dissenters" while a selectorate of 100k voted for Corbyn's brand of Labour.
    The first 8 million of Labour's vote is completely meaningless. They'll get this forevermore, yes even with Corbyn.
    For all his faults, Miliband got 800,000 more votes than that chump Brown !
    Unlikely, Labour's core vote is probably closer to 20%. Miliband still pitched in the centre a bit and he appealed to middle class public sector workers, Corbyn will do neither.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Perhaps Mr. Pontac's account and that of the leafleter (if he exists) would differ.
    I predict many more claims of Islamophobia and racism as we lead up to polling day...
    I'm not sure that the Labour party are wise to emphasize Mr Khan's religion by constantly drawing attention to it in claims against his opponent. A very large number of electors do not live in inner London....
    Can we get some good polls or ramping out for Zac, I'd like to square up at evens or at least 5-6 on Khan.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    dodrade said:

    I posted this a few hours ago, but seems apt here

    This week is an example of how Cameron and the Tories should be on the ropes, over the floods, and their cutting of flood prevention measures.

    But what are Labour discussing this week? Sacking the shadow cabinet members who Jez doesn't like for not voting the same way as him on a free vote.

    The Somerset floods of a few years back didn't seem to do the Tories any harm there in May, I doubt these will/would either regardless of who is Labour Leader.
    Agreed - the nonsense we've had this week was entirely predictable - it's all getting a bit like the 24 hours to save the NHS meme. Tired, tawdry and really like water off a duck's back :)
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Perhaps Mr. Pontac's account and that of the leafleter (if he exists) would differ.
    I predict many more claims of Islamophobia and racism as we lead up to polling day...
    I'm not sure that the Labour party are wise to emphasize Mr Khan's religion by constantly drawing attention to it in claims against his opponent. A very large number of electors do not live in inner London....
    Embrace the diversity

    https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/681931010775318532
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Tom said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Margaret Thatcher is reputed to have said, in a moment of extreme exasperation in about 1980, 'I think I am the cabinet rebel'. When pressed on whether she admired her ministers for having the courage of their convictions, she snapped, 'I want them to have the courage of my convictions.'

    That's the difference between the Right and (some of) the Left. The Right - even the very Right like Thatcher - understand that there are other points of view. The Corbynistas just can't comprehend how anyone can have a different opinion to their's.
    That's because leftism is like a religion. They are right and everyone else is going to hell. Anyone who isn't with them needs to he converted and those who refuse should die or something to that effect.
    While that does apply to Corbynites one only has to read through any PB thread to realise that isn't the sole prerogative of the left.
    It's true in the right, but much rarer. We have one or two on here who I think might be CCHQ bots.
  • 'Thank you for the concerned messages but I am very much alive': Labour MP David Lammy claims Twitter users thought HE had died instead of Motörhead legend Lemmy".

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    felix said:

    Sean_F said:

    Should get me on Team Zac

    Zac Goldsmith’s mayoral campaign team is investigating a claim that one of their canvassers made an Islamophobic remark about the Labour candidate, Sadiq Khan.

    The unidentified man was said to have been distributing leaflets for the Conservative candidate when he allegedly referred to Khan as “the Muslim” in a doorstep exchange with Perry Pontac, of Streatham, south London.

    Goldsmith’s team said they were investigating the allegation, which they were made aware of in writing last week. They said any such remark would be unacceptable.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/29/zac-goldsmith-sadiq-khan-london-mayoral-campaign-islamophobic-canvasser?CMP=twt_gu

    Perhaps Mr. Pontac's account and that of the leafleter (if he exists) would differ.
    I predict many more claims of Islamophobia and racism as we lead up to polling day...
    I'm not sure that the Labour party are wise to emphasize Mr Khan's religion by constantly drawing attention to it in claims against his opponent. A very large number of electors do not live in inner London....
    I do wonder what Sir Lynton might be thinking about this.
This discussion has been closed.