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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » British politics 2016 in one word: Europe

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited January 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » British politics 2016 in one word: Europe

Can 2016 live up to the excitement that last year gave us? Remarkably, it could. Internationally, the extremely interesting year-long elections in the US may well produce the first female president of the United States (albeit the wife of a former president), and if not, could well put an untested populist with no political experience in the White House.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016
    First! Like remain...
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Seconded ! Remain 2 - Leave 0.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited January 2016
    FPT
    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    https://www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Neither Schengen nor the Greek debt crisis directly affect us in the UK, so I am far from convinced that either will be critical in the negotiation or referendum.

    Us leaving the EU would not help resolve either issue either. To solve the debt problem Greeks would have to behave like North Europeans in terms of i dividual financial responsibility. To solve the migrant crisis we need for peace and prosperity to break out in the Middle East and North Africa.

    Until these happen, the issue will bumble on much as they are, whether we are in the EU or not. The migrants at Calais are not going to disappear if we left the EU. A radical rewrite of the refugee conventions would be needed for any progress on that.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited January 2016
    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Andy will be happy. Wind producing 23% of UK electricity right now.

    Biomass 5.81%. Solar 0% [ this is before sunrise: nothing wrong with solar panels before the sceptics start writing in ]

    http://energinet.dk/EN/El/Sider/Elsystemet-lige-nu.aspx

    In Denmark, on the other hand, wind is actually producing more than current consumption. Big "exports" to Norway and Sweden but also substantial imports from Germany.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    It is quite striking though. Water shortages this summer in the SE and East Anglia?

    I note Dair has sgopped boasting about how much better Scotland manages rainfall...
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    It is quite striking though. Water shortages this summer in the SE and East Anglia?

    I note Dair has sgopped boasting about how much better Scotland manages rainfall...
    I would not raise my hopes too much on that. He could come up with stats that those parts which voted NO more , suffered the most !
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    https://www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    That is nonsense. Looking at the map over half of the country is well within normal variation. The rest is probably explained by el Niño and is clearly exceptional. Regarding the floods the main exceptional feature has been the hyperbolic reporting of a relatively small number of flooded homes - all tragic for the individual victims but exaggerated none the less.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Neither Schengen nor the Greek debt crisis directly affect us in the UK, so I am far from convinced that either will be critical in the negotiation or referendum.

    Us leaving the EU would not help resolve either issue either. To solve the debt problem Greeks would have to behave like North Europeans in terms of i dividual financial responsibility. To solve the migrant crisis we need for peace and prosperity to break out in the Middle East and North Africa.

    Until these happen, the issue will bumble on much as they are, whether we are in the EU or not. The migrants at Calais are not going to disappear if we left the EU. A radical rewrite of the refugee conventions would be needed for any progress on that.

    Massive transfer payments will need to take place. Future refugees / migrants will learn from 2015 experience. Therefore, Turkey and also Lebanon / Jordan will demand reasonably more transfer payments from the EU. Otherwise, they would why should they keep these people when they want to go Europe. It is also fairer.

    The Gulf including the Saudis are conspicuous by the complete absence of taking in any refugees. I was in Dubai last month and heard that they have taken in about 100,000. But usually these people brought their Ferraris or fat wallets with them.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    https://www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    That is nonsense. Looking at the map over half of the country is well within normal variation. The rest is probably explained by el Niño and is clearly exceptional. Regarding the floods the main exceptional feature has been the hyperbolic reporting of a relatively small number of flooded homes - all tragic for the individual victims but exaggerated none the less.
    I am not sure why you are using aggressive terms like "nonsense" at 6 am. The average is 176%. Half the country indeed is at "normal" ~ 100%, the other half must be ~ 250% to arrive at 176%.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    edited January 2016
    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    https://www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    Let me rephrase then. The extra rain is ignoring the South and the Midlands. Pedant much? ;)

    In other news, I quite enjoyed the new Star Wars. If you can, the 3D IMAX is great!
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    https://www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    That is nonsense. Looking at the map over half of the country is well within normal variation. The rest is probably explained by el Niño and is clearly exceptional. Regarding the floods the main exceptional feature has been the hyperbolic reporting of a relatively small number of flooded homes - all tragic for the individual victims but exaggerated none the less.
    I am not sure why you are using aggressive terms like "nonsense" at 6 am. The average is 176%. Half the country indeed is at "normal" ~ 100%, the other half must be ~ 250% to arrive at 176%.

    To get over-excited by one wet month in less than half the country is nonsense. Typical of the age of .over-reporting by too many 24 hours news channels employing too many people with little understanding of the true n nature of reporting the news.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited January 2016
    surbiton said:

    Neither Schengen nor the Greek debt crisis directly affect us in the UK, so I am far from convinced that either will be critical in the negotiation or referendum.

    Us leaving the EU would not help resolve either issue either. To solve the debt problem Greeks would have to behave like North Europeans in terms of i dividual financial responsibility. To solve the migrant crisis we need for peace and prosperity to break out in the Middle East and North Africa.

    Until these happen, the issue will bumble on much as they are, whether we are in the EU or not. The migrants at Calais are not going to disappear if we left the EU. A radical rewrite of the refugee conventions would be needed for any progress on that.

    Massive transfer payments will need to take place. Future refugees / migrants will learn from 2015 experience. Therefore, Turkey and also Lebanon / Jordan will demand reasonably more transfer payments from the EU. Otherwise, they would why should they keep these people when they want to go Europe. It is also fairer.

    The Gulf including the Saudis are conspicuous by the complete absence of taking in any refugees. I was in Dubai last month and heard that they have taken in about 100,000. But usually these people brought their Ferraris or fat wallets with them.
    Morning. Are the UK not sending over a billion in aid to the refugee camps close to Syria, that was my understanding?

    A good point about the Gulf states, although to be fair they are dealing with their own problems in Yemen, which is closer to home for them. There's lots of Syrians in Dubai but as you say they are mainly professional expatriates rather than refugees - although I have come across a few recently working as taxi drivers, a job done traditionally by Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans, as it pays only a couple of hundred dollars a week.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,000
    surbiton said:

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Andy will be happy. Wind producing 23% of UK electricity right now.

    Biomass 5.81%. Solar 0% [ this is before sunrise: nothing wrong with solar panels before the sceptics start writing in ]

    http://energinet.dk/EN/El/Sider/Elsystemet-lige-nu.aspx

    In Denmark, on the other hand, wind is actually producing more than current consumption. Big "exports" to Norway and Sweden but also substantial imports from Germany.

    'Sceptics' is a loaded word to be using at 6am. ;)

    You miss the point. Having a high percentage of generation by wind is meaningless if we still need conventional power stations for times when wind is generating next to nothing. It just adds massive costs on to consumers' bills. They are also much less efficient that promised, as they 'forgot' some rather obvious fundamentals. (1)

    (It would be good if we could get figures, especially real-time, for generation from individual wind farms. Technically this should be very easy, as the figures will be known by both the generators and the grid)

    Energy security is what matters, and wind has a place within that. But too much wind power can be problematic, as Germany is finding out. Until the peaks and troughs can be levelled out, by either pan-Europe grid or storage, then wind is an expensive mess.

    (1): http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2013/02/rethinking-wind-power
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,000
    edited January 2016
    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Interesting map from the Met Office. The rain has just ignored the Midlands and the South.

    https://www.twitter.com/metoffice/status/682939392235704321

    You can hardly use the term "ignore" to denote 75% - 125% of normal rainfall.

    Only in pockets of the South and East Anglia and in tiny patches in the Midlands, it is below 75%.
    That is nonsense. Looking at the map over half of the country is well within normal variation. The rest is probably explained by el Niño and is clearly exceptional. Regarding the floods the main exceptional feature has been the hyperbolic reporting of a relatively small number of flooded homes - all tragic for the individual victims but exaggerated none the less.
    I am not sure why you are using aggressive terms like "nonsense" at 6 am. The average is 176%. Half the country indeed is at "normal" ~ 100%, the other half must be ~ 250% to arrive at 176%.

    To get over-excited by one wet month in less than half the country is nonsense. Typical of the age of .over-reporting by too many 24 hours news channels employing too many people with little understanding of the true n nature of reporting the news.
    To be fair, the effects of this weather have been severe. Not just in terms of flooding, but also infrastructure. On the railways, the Dover to Folkestone line has been washed away (with none of the fanfare of Dawlish), and part of the West Coast line is closed after a bridge has been undermined: it'll be interesting to see how quick they can fix that if the deck really has shifted.

    twitter.com/NetworkRailGLC/status/682508357954068480?s=09 (URL amended)
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited January 2016
    A positive and upbeat New Year's message from Dan Hannan.
    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015/12/daniel-hannan-2.html
    Despite all the headlines, the world in 2016 is richer, better educated and more peaceful than ever.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The EU is going through a rough time right now but it certainly isn't aided by the quality of its leaders. It has spent so long in crisis management that it has institutionally forgotten how to look beyond the immediate. A smart EU negotiation would be outflanking David Cameron rather than hunkering down passively.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    The EU is going through a rough time right now but it certainly isn't aided by the quality of its leaders. It has spent so long in crisis management that it has institutionally forgotten how to look beyond the immediate. A smart EU negotiation would be outflanking David Cameron rather than hunkering down passively.

    A good point.
    I don't recall many "J-CJICIECP" when he was up for nomination though ;)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,000
    Sandpit said:

    A positive and upbeat New Year's message from Dan Hannan.
    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015/12/daniel-hannan-2.html
    Despite all the headlines, the world in 2016 is richer, better educated and more peaceful than ever.

    Amen to that.
  • Options
    Rainfall - 2015 was very slightly below our (Leamington) long-term average, but December was the wettest month of the year by far, thanks to a sodden final week. The reservoirs are at over 90% of capacity. We're going to be OK :-)
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    The reservoirs are at over 90% of capacity. We're going to be OK :-)

    They must have issued a drought warning a few weeks ago ;)
  • Options

    The EU is going through a rough time right now but it certainly isn't aided by the quality of its leaders. It has spent so long in crisis management that it has institutionally forgotten how to look beyond the immediate. A smart EU negotiation would be outflanking David Cameron rather than hunkering down passively.

    Indeed. And it was Dave's inability to control the Tory right that has put him in his current situation. Lack of leadership all round has brought us to this juncture.

  • Options
    RobD said:

    The reservoirs are at over 90% of capacity. We're going to be OK :-)

    They must have issued a drought warning a few weeks ago ;)

    No doubt we'll get some kind of dire warning after the next dry patch. But judging by my new year walk yesterday the water table is currently very close to ground level.

  • Options
    A vote to leave would also precipitate a new Scottish independence referendum. If Dave stayed on he might end up not only as the PM who took the UK out of the EU, but who also lost his country. That would be some legacy. And all because he was worried about losing some votes to UKIP.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated
  • Options

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated

    If a Leave vote would trigger Cameron's resignation - and I agree it would - ministers campaigning for Leave would effectively be campaigning for Cameron to go. If Remain wins, could they then carry on in government? It seems pretty clear that the best result for Tory unity would be a vote for withdrawal. Maybe a good reason for those on the left to vote to stay in?

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated
    Good conclusion about the Cameron leave markets having much more value than the referendum result markets, as if he's on the wrong side he'll almost certainly resign.

    What would be good is a covering market on DC to campaign for Leave, there was the one on who will lead the campaign in the debate but that's not quite the same.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,000

    A vote to leave would also precipitate a new Scottish independence referendum. If Dave stayed on he might end up not only as the PM who took the UK out of the EU, but who also lost his country. That would be some legacy. And all because he was worried about losing some votes to UKIP.

    I was just wondering if you had decided which way you'd vote, or if you were currently undecided?
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    I'm not sure the referendum will be this year. Cameron would clearly prefer that but he has had trouble getting the EU to focus on it and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

    I'm interested in what Cameron (and, indeed, Osborne) would do if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble, especially if matters drag on into 2017.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated
    Thanks for the article and non-fence-sitting conclusion.
  • Options

    A vote to leave would also precipitate a new Scottish independence referendum. If Dave stayed on he might end up not only as the PM who took the UK out of the EU, but who also lost his country. That would be some legacy. And all because he was worried about losing some votes to UKIP.

    I was just wondering if you had decided which way you'd vote, or if you were currently undecided?

    Undecided and unengaged. Hoping for an informative campaign, expecting a dire one. As things stand, I don't care very much either way.

  • Options
    Wanderer said:

    I'm not sure the referendum will be this year. Cameron would clearly prefer that but he has had trouble getting the EU to focus on it and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

    I'm interested in what Cameron (and, indeed, Osborne) would do if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble, especially if matters drag on into 2017.

    I doubt Osborne will get very involved.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited January 2016

    surbiton said:

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Andy will be happy. Wind producing 23% of UK electricity right now.

    Biomass 5.81%. Solar 0% [ this is before sunrise: nothing wrong with solar panels before the sceptics start writing in ]

    http://energinet.dk/EN/El/Sider/Elsystemet-lige-nu.aspx

    In Denmark, on the other hand, wind is actually producing more than current consumption. Big "exports" to Norway and Sweden but also substantial imports from Germany.

    'Sceptics' is a loaded word to be using at 6am. ;)

    You miss the point. Having a high percentage of generation by wind is meaningless if we still need conventional power stations for times when wind is generating next to nothing. It just adds massive costs on to consumers' bills. They are also much less efficient that promised, as they 'forgot' some rather obvious fundamentals. (1)

    (It would be good if we could get figures, especially real-time, for generation from individual wind farms. Technically this should be very easy, as the figures will be known by both the generators and the grid)

    Energy security is what matters, and wind has a place within that. But too much wind power can be problematic, as Germany is finding out. Until the peaks and troughs can be levelled out, by either pan-Europe grid or storage, then wind is an expensive mess.

    (1): http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2013/02/rethinking-wind-power
    So governments and companies expending billions and billions obviously have not taken your advice. Thank goodness !

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited January 2016
    Good morning all.

    David Herdson's thread only confirms my suspicion (my forecast for 2016 yesterday), that Cameron will delay the EU referendum for as long as possible, possibly until spring 2017, because of adverse polling this spring and summer.

    However, if LEAVE lose the referendum, Cameron could still stay on, fighting to delay a Brexit especially if Boris, now a free spirit, is fighting to gain the leadership of the tory party and hence the premiership.

    It is also possible that many supporters of STAY in the civil service will work to sabotage a smooth exit from the EU. I can see plenty of reasons for Cameron staying on until 2020, barring sudden ill health.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Wanderer said:

    I'm not sure the referendum will be this year. Cameron would clearly prefer that but he has had trouble getting the EU to focus on it and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

    I'm interested in what Cameron (and, indeed, Osborne) would do if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble, especially if matters drag on into 2017.

    I doubt Osborne will get very involved.

    They will run out of places to hide him. He is becoming another Letwin
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    I wonder if Osborne's the one in trouble. He's near certain to support Remain, but that could mean thwarting his leadership becomes a way of burnishing one's sceptical credentials.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    @David Herdson

    Do you guys really rate Sajid Javid ? Hardly anyone knows him.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Good morning, everyone.

    I wonder if Osborne's the one in trouble. He's near certain to support Remain, but that could mean thwarting his leadership becomes a way of burnishing one's sceptical credentials.

    Osborne will stand shoulder to shoulder with Cameron, they will live or die together. If Cameron leaves office at a time not of his own choosing, Osborne will be the proverbial cooked bread.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Its better the devil you know than the one you don't know. being out of Europe is not a panacea.. We would be loathed by our European allies for a very long time... and NOT necessarily better off. Dave's given it to Europe between the eyes, I am confident Dave will be able to offer some radical changes. Perhaps offering the referendum and forcing Europe to realise that the UK might leave has concentrated minds.. After all, if the UK leave, what's to stop another country leaving... If Dave gets a good deal, IN will win with something to spare.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,000
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Andy will be happy. Wind producing 23% of UK electricity right now.

    Biomass 5.81%. Solar 0% [ this is before sunrise: nothing wrong with solar panels before the sceptics start writing in ]

    http://energinet.dk/EN/El/Sider/Elsystemet-lige-nu.aspx

    In Denmark, on the other hand, wind is actually producing more than current consumption. Big "exports" to Norway and Sweden but also substantial imports from Germany.

    'Sceptics' is a loaded word to be using at 6am. ;)

    You miss the point. Having a high percentage of generation by wind is meaningless if we still need conventional power stations for times when wind is generating next to nothing. It just adds massive costs on to consumers' bills. They are also much less efficient that promised, as they 'forgot' some rather obvious fundamentals. (1)

    (It would be good if we could get figures, especially real-time, for generation from individual wind farms. Technically this should be very easy, as the figures will be known by both the generators and the grid)

    Energy security is what matters, and wind has a place within that. But too much wind power can be problematic, as Germany is finding out. Until the peaks and troughs can be levelled out, by either pan-Europe grid or storage, then wind is an expensive mess.

    (1): http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2013/02/rethinking-wind-power
    So governments and companies expending billions and billions obviously have not taken your advice. Thank goodness !

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country
    Where have I said not to develop wind technology? (*) It's the mix of power generation that is getting badly skewed whilst there is no corresponding storage or balancing technology.

    It's sad to see a lefty wanting to kill our industry and plunge more people into poverty by increasing fuel bills more than they need to be. Those 'billions and billions' need to come from somewhere ...

    (*) I am against upland wind farms, as has been discussed passim. But I have few problems with lowland ones, and I live within a few miles of a large windfarm.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838



    Undecided and unengaged. Hoping for an informative campaign, expecting a dire one. As things stand, I don't care very much either way.

    That's another aspect of the whole topic. When one says that the issue will dominate politics for the next year the question arises "for whom".
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The more that I read, the more it is clear that the EUref is all about internal Tory politricks. The suicide of the only English party left standing. Profoundly depressing.

    I particularly liked this line of DH "The problem there is that the EU is useless at resolving issues; its preferred modus operandi for problems is to muddle through, taking as long as necessary until the problem goes away."

    Muddling through? How British is that! We have had our influence on the EU after all!
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    surbiton said:

    @David Herdson

    Do you guys really rate Sajid Javid ? Hardly anyone knows him.

    I think he's intelligent, interesting and extremely awkward-seeming. He'd be a terrible choice as leader imo.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Wanderer, based on the little I've seen of him, I agree. His touting seems to be because he's a Friend of Osborne, and because he has a nice backstory.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Its better the devil you know than the one you don't know. being out of Europe is not a panacea.. We would be loathed by our European allies for a very long time... and NOT necessarily better off. Dave's given it to Europe between the eyes, I am confident Dave will be able to offer some radical changes. Perhaps offering the referendum and forcing Europe to realise that the UK might leave has concentrated minds.. After all, if the UK leave, what's to stop another country leaving... If Dave gets a good deal, IN will win with something to spare.

    I'd expect some polling in Leave's favour to focus the minds of everyone involved in the next year.

    As @SouthamObserver suggests the campaign will most likely generate more heat than light, although at the end of the day Germany will still want to sell us cars and Airbus will still make planes in the UK, so in or out of the EU a trade agreement of sorts will happen.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated

    If a Leave vote would trigger Cameron's resignation - and I agree it would - ministers campaigning for Leave would effectively be campaigning for Cameron to go. If Remain wins, could they then carry on in government? It seems pretty clear that the best result for Tory unity would be a vote for withdrawal. Maybe a good reason for those on the left to vote to stay in?

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated. If it's a comfortable Stay, of the scale that Alistair predicted yesterday, then the matter's settled for all but obesssives - and obsessives have UKIP to champion their cause.

    You're right that Leavers are implicitly accepting the removal of Cameron as a consequence of their desired result but I don't think all that many are 'campaigning' for it as such; more viewing it as acceptable collateral damage.

    Would they stay if Remain wins? It won't help their career prospects but Cameron has to also recognise the reality that a large proportion - possibly a comfortable majority - of Tory voters, never mind Tory members, are keen to leave the EU. He cannot launch a war against them any more than Corbyn can purge the PLP of his opponents, and for the same reason: an alternate shadow cabinet on his own backbenches poses too great a threat to his own authority.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    The more that I read, the more it is clear that the EUref is all about internal Tory politricks. The suicide of the only English party left standing.

    That is my fear. Allegedly they will avoid the excesses of the 90s.
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    @David Herdson

    Do you guys really rate Sajid Javid ? Hardly anyone knows him.

    I've heard of Saqid Javid. But only because he called himself an ex-Muslim, not, I think, a vote-winner with Muslims or anyone else.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited January 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated
    Good conclusion about the Cameron leave markets having much more value than the referendum result markets, as if he's on the wrong side he'll almost certainly resign.

    What would be good is a covering market on DC to campaign for Leave, there was the one on who will lead the campaign in the debate but that's not quite the same.
    It's not quite the same but it's pretty close. I don't really see how Cameron can campaign for Leave unless he's prepared to front it. This referendum is Cameron's baby: the natural dynamics of the politics means that he'll end up leading whichever side he backs.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,000
    Wanderer said:

    surbiton said:

    @David Herdson

    Do you guys really rate Sajid Javid ? Hardly anyone knows him.

    I think he's intelligent, interesting and extremely awkward-seeming. He'd be a terrible choice as leader imo.
    What characteristics make a good, successful party leader? And are those characteristics different from, or a subset of, those of a good, successful PM?
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Ridiculous that some posters think we are having a Referendum on Europe because Cameron was afraid of losing a few votes to UKIP
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Mr. Wanderer, based on the little I've seen of him, I agree. His touting seems to be because he's a Friend of Osborne, and because he has a nice backstory.

    Well, he has said some things that I greatly like, eg this about artistic freedom http://www.sajidjavid.com/news/sajid-javids-speech-union-jewish-students-annual-conference-2014

    I just think he comes across as a bit weird and geekish.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated

    If a Leave vote would trigger Cameron's resignation - and I agree it would - ministers campaigning for Leave would effectively be campaigning for Cameron to go. If Remain wins, could they then carry on in government? It seems pretty clear that the best result for Tory unity would be a vote for withdrawal. Maybe a good reason for those on the left to vote to stay in?

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated. If it's a comfortable Stay, of the scale that Alistair predicted yesterday, then the matter's settled for all but obesssives - and obsessives have UKIP to champion their cause.

    You're right that Leavers are implicitly accepting the removal of Cameron as a consequence of their desired result but I don't think all that many are 'campaigning' for it as such; more viewing it as acceptable collateral damage.

    Would they stay if Remain wins? It won't help their career prospects but Cameron has to also recognise the reality that a large proportion - possibly a comfortable majority - of Tory voters, never mind Tory members, are keen to leave the EU. He cannot launch a war against them any more than Corbyn can purge the PLP of his opponents, and for the same reason: an alternate shadow cabinet on his own backbenches poses too great a threat to his own authority.
    Very well put about both Cameron and Corbyn.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited January 2016
    Wanderer said:

    I'm not sure the referendum will be this year. Cameron would clearly prefer that but he has had trouble getting the EU to focus on it and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

    I'm interested in what Cameron (and, indeed, Osborne) would do if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble, especially if matters drag on into 2017.

    I agree it's not a foregone conclusion, though kicking the date down the road risks the anvil action as the hammer of time swings towards the anvil of deadline. But it's the reason that I quoted the price for Cameron to leave during 2017 as well.

    Cameron doesn't have an option if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble: his BOO backbenchers will see to that. It's the sort of trigger that would produce letters of No Confidence.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    MikeK said:

    Good morning all.

    David Herdson's thread only confirms my suspicion (my forecast for 2016 yesterday), that Cameron will delay the EU referendum for as long as possible, possibly until spring 2017, because of adverse polling this spring and summer.

    However, if LEAVE lose the referendum, Cameron could still stay on, fighting to delay a Brexit especially if Boris, now a free spirit, is fighting to gain the leadership of the tory party and hence the premiership.

    It is also possible that many supporters of STAY in the civil service will work to sabotage a smooth exit from the EU. I can see plenty of reasons for Cameron staying on until 2020, barring sudden ill health.

    If Leave loses, other than narrowly, then Brexit is off the table for years.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Wanderer said:

    surbiton said:

    @David Herdson

    Do you guys really rate Sajid Javid ? Hardly anyone knows him.

    I think he's intelligent, interesting and extremely awkward-seeming. He'd be a terrible choice as leader imo.
    What characteristics make a good, successful party leader? And are those characteristics different from, or a subset of, those of a good, successful PM?
    For the purposes of this discussion I think they can be seen as different:

    A party-leader needs to be an election-winner, able to connect with the public and inspire their confidence. Able to manage his party.

    A Prime Minister needs to be good at running a government and might have something like a vision for the country (advanced candidates only).

    Of course, in the long-term a good party-leader (of a major party) will become PM anyway.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    surbiton said:

    @David Herdson

    Do you guys really rate Sajid Javid ? Hardly anyone knows him.

    The question is more is there anyone I really rate as a replacement for Cameron, to which the answer is 'no'. As things stand, and were there a blank sheet for available options, the Tory Party's best chances would remain with Cameron staying leader.

    But there isn't a blank sheet: the referendum and his promise to stand down both get in the way. So the question is who's the best of the alternatives? Javid has so far proven adequate rather than exceptional but I think would make a much better front man than Osborne (though as noted by others, if Leave does win then Osborne could be stymied by his support for Stay anyway). If Stay wins, I'd probably be inclined to Hammond as much as anyone right now: boring, true, but boring is not necessarily a bad thing if you already have the glow of office surrounding you.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited January 2016

    MikeK said:

    Good morning all.

    David Herdson's thread only confirms my suspicion (my forecast for 2016 yesterday), that Cameron will delay the EU referendum for as long as possible, possibly until spring 2017, because of adverse polling this spring and summer.

    However, if LEAVE lose the referendum, Cameron could still stay on, fighting to delay a Brexit especially if Boris, now a free spirit, is fighting to gain the leadership of the tory party and hence the premiership.

    It is also possible that many supporters of STAY in the civil service will work to sabotage a smooth exit from the EU. I can see plenty of reasons for Cameron staying on until 2020, barring sudden ill health.

    If Leave loses, other than narrowly, then Brexit is off the table for years.
    Yes David, I made a terrible boo-boo there. I meant to write that if STAY loses the referendum, Cameron etc..............
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Wanderer said:

    Having slept on it, I feel I've wimped out of providing a proper conclusion based on my observations in the article. I'm rectifying that omission now. Apologies.

    Now updated

    If a Leave vote would trigger Cameron's resignation - and I agree it would - ministers campaigning for Leave would effectively be campaigning for Cameron to go. If Remain wins, could they then carry on in government? It seems pretty clear that the best result for Tory unity would be a vote for withdrawal. Maybe a good reason for those on the left to vote to stay in?

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated. If it's a comfortable Stay, of the scale that Alistair predicted yesterday, then the matter's settled for all but obesssives - and obsessives have UKIP to champion their cause.

    You're right that Leavers are implicitly accepting the removal of Cameron as a consequence of their desired result but I don't think all that many are 'campaigning' for it as such; more viewing it as acceptable collateral damage.

    Would they stay if Remain wins? It won't help their career prospects but Cameron has to also recognise the reality that a large proportion - possibly a comfortable majority - of Tory voters, never mind Tory members, are keen to leave the EU. He cannot launch a war against them any more than Corbyn can purge the PLP of his opponents, and for the same reason: an alternate shadow cabinet on his own backbenches poses too great a threat to his own authority.
    Very well put about both Cameron and Corbyn.
    Quite. One gets the feeling that 2016 will be the year that both major parties spend the majority of their time arguing among themselves, rather than presenting a vision to the country and the undecided.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    England win the toss and will bat. Walking out now.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Sandpit, for a moment I thought you were the one walking out :p
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    Because both sides will deploy dodgy stats, hyperbolic threats and projection, and nightmare visions of the future that the other side will regard as not valid arguments. If it's close then there'll be a strong sense of consolation to channel the anger of those who lost in the argument that the vote was stolen on the back of lies.

    And yes, if it's a close Leave than I do expect Stay-ers to point to the vote being won by racist and xenophobic arguments, or the like.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    As one gets older, one realises that often who is leader does not matter too much.. the only times it really mattered that I recall in the last 35 yrs was when Maggie came on and Brown who was an utter disaster.. How Labour allowed him to get elected is beyond comprehension. Same goes for the Tories in letting Maggie go on and on..
    Of course it was more important who was not elected as PM and there is a long list of them!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    Because both sides will deploy dodgy stats, hyperbolic threats and projection, and nightmare visions of the future that the other side will regard as not valid arguments. If it's close then there'll be a strong sense of consolation to channel the anger of those who lost in the argument that the vote was stolen on the back of lies.

    And yes, if it's a close Leave than I do expect Stay-ers to point to the vote being won by racist and xenophobic arguments, or the like.
    Fair enough. I reckon Leave's best shot is a low turnout. I suspect it wouldn't be as low as this, but say we voted leave on a turnout below 50% - I can imagine some saying that it lacked legitimacy.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Root, not sure I agree with that at all.

    Miliband in large part lost Labour the election. A steady, dull sort (perhaps called Darling) would've done much better. Corbyn now is tearing Labour apart.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Morning - golly it's blowy out there.

    Javid has as much charisma as Yvette Cooper. Never seem him perform well on the TV - and he looks oddly like an alien in a nice suit. One of Yoda's nephew's perhaps. Just no.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2016

    Mr. Root, not sure I agree with that at all.

    Miliband in large part lost Labour the election. A steady, dull sort (perhaps called Darling) would've done much better. Corbyn now is tearing Labour apart.

    I think that falls under the who was not elected.. The country gets the leader it needs at the time , sometimes its an error like Blair, but he was fresh faced and likeable early doors whilst Brown was foisted on the electorate without any vote rather than within the Labour party and that was token.
    Dave nealy won and became PM because Brown was a disaster (they were recovering from a really weak position) and won again because Ed was crap
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    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    Because both sides will deploy dodgy stats, hyperbolic threats and projection, and nightmare visions of the future that the other side will regard as not valid arguments. If it's close then there'll be a strong sense of consolation to channel the anger of those who lost in the argument that the vote was stolen on the back of lies.

    And yes, if it's a close Leave than I do expect Stay-ers to point to the vote being won by racist and xenophobic arguments, or the like.
    So do I. And if it's only Stay because of non-English votes those arguments will be shouted from everywhere in the green and pleasant land that isn't flooded at the time.

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Mr. Root, not sure I agree with that at all.

    Miliband in large part lost Labour the election. A steady, dull sort (perhaps called Darling) would've done much better. Corbyn now is tearing Labour apart.

    But you can see why Labour would plump for a vegetarian, after the frustration of Ed Milband's trauma with a bacon butty lost them the election.

    So they chose a guy who would sit down with Hamas rather than a ham sandwich. What could possibly go wrong?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016

    Wanderer said:

    I'm not sure the referendum will be this year. Cameron would clearly prefer that but he has had trouble getting the EU to focus on it and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

    I'm interested in what Cameron (and, indeed, Osborne) would do if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble, especially if matters drag on into 2017.

    I agree it's not a foregone conclusion, though kicking the date down the road risks the anvil action as the hammer of time swings towards the anvil of deadline. But it's the reason that I quoted the price for Cameron to leave during 2017 as well.

    Cameron doesn't have an option if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble: his BOO backbenchers will see to that. It's the sort of trigger that would produce letters of No Confidence.
    I can see spring 2017 may well appeal as a date.

    It is nearly too late to announce a June referendum already, and a September one would be the other option, and likely to leave little time for "renegotiation", and plenty of time for a summer of migrant chaos.

    By the end of the summer, and pending German Federal elections in 2017, the mood in Europe may well have tilted Camerons way on a number of issues. A spring 2017 election may then look attractive.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Wanderer said:

    I'm not sure the referendum will be this year. Cameron would clearly prefer that but he has had trouble getting the EU to focus on it and I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

    I'm interested in what Cameron (and, indeed, Osborne) would do if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble, especially if matters drag on into 2017.

    I agree it's not a foregone conclusion, though kicking the date down the road risks the anvil action as the hammer of time swings towards the anvil of deadline. But it's the reason that I quoted the price for Cameron to leave during 2017 as well.

    Cameron doesn't have an option if it appeared that Remain was in serious trouble: his BOO backbenchers will see to that. It's the sort of trigger that would produce letters of No Confidence.
    I can see spring 2017 may well appeal as a date.

    It is nearly too late to announce a June referendum already, and a September one would be the other option, and likely to leave little time for "renegotiation", and plenty of time for a summer of migrant chaos.

    By the end of the summer, and pending German Federal elections in 2017, the mood in Europe may well have tilted Camerons way on a number of issues. A spring 2017 election may then look attractive.

    A referendum later this autumn is also possible, though October and November remain a little less likely than September.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    On topic, the EU's modus operandi is just to let the Eurocrats get on with what they need to do to implement The Project, a vision of a handful of European leaders for a single country to rival the US. And if any single element votes to do something awkward, like refuse to ratify a treaty, they just throw money at them to remind them the EU is an instrument of largesse - then tell them to vote again.

    I suspect they would treat a vote for Brexit as the opening salvoes in a renegotiation. The current effort will be seen as no more than Cameron dropping his trousers and mooning them.

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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Something @Cyclefree may find interesting

    Former trader Tom Hayes on learning to survive in prison https://t.co/bL9MIzPk5A via @harrynwilson @TimesMagazine https://t.co/K6SivLccl7
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    The Scottish referendum (which wasn't THAT close) shows what can happen - the losers did indeed feel cheated, and are voting accordingly. And yes, I think that people who are OK with membership will feel cheated if we pull out by a margin of 1%. There are always reasons to find - X promised Y and it didn't happen, Z made claim A and it's proved false.

    But I'd like to put an alternative scenario. Most people are demonstrably not very interested at the moment, despite years of pretty intense debate. I think one could even make a case that most people are already bored by the referendum, and will get more so as the campaign finally starts. They will be bemused and mildly irritated as the whole political class starts obsessing about it.

    For those of us who do care, the question is what those bored people will do. I think most will probably vote in the end, and will probably vote Remain, but that's just a gut feeling. Is there polling data on "certain to vote in the EU referendum"?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RacingPost: ITV confirms four-year deal to broadcast British horseracing from January 1

    @RacingPost: ITV’s main channel will screen at least 34 fixtures a year under its new deal, which runs from 2017-2020

    @RacingPost: 60 will be on ITV4, which will also broadcast a magazine preview programme each Saturday morning
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    DH

    "And that’s what will be at the heart of the referendum: who will be believed most? Claim and counter-claim will be rife, with both sides making exaggerated claims about the costs should the other side win".


    ........Having just returned from Venice I wondered how anyone could fail to be excited that such a magical city is now part of our extended family of nations. Europe is such a wonderful eclectic place that we should embrace it as tightly as we can. It's future should be our future.

    For the debate to be reduced to nickels and dimes is very depressing. We're such philistines

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    On topic, the EU's modus operandi is just to let the Eurocrats get on with what they need to do to implement The Project, a vision of a handful of European leaders for a single country to rival the US. And if any single element votes to do something awkward, like refuse to ratify a treaty, they just throw money at them to remind them the EU is an instrument of largesse - then tell them to vote again.

    I suspect they would treat a vote for Brexit as the opening salvoes in a renegotiation. The current effort will be seen as no more than Cameron dropping his trousers and mooning them.

    It would be politically impossible to force a second vote, if Leave won.

    The people of the UK may well not like the EU exit terms, particularly if wanting to stay in the EEA, but the deed would be done.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    I can't help feeling that David is coming at this from a centre right perspective which is the part of the electorate which gives a toss about the EU and this has distorted his perspective. In the same way that I disagreed with the Tim Montgomery based thread yesterday I really don't believe that this is a major issue for most people. The "most important" issues polling consistently shows this.

    The EU referendum should be a chance for Labour to get back in the game. It should show a divided Tory party obsessively focussed on slightly obscure and confusing issues. The Tories were like this in the early years of the century and unelectable as a result. But they have chosen to be led by a Muppet so the chance will likely pass them by.

    For Cameron and Osborne in particular there will be a strong desire to get this off the table and get back to issues on which the Tories can win elections. David may be right that the EU will not necessarily be helpful on this in their reluctance to reach decisions and the focus on the continuing problems of the EZ and immigration but he will want to push it through if he possibly can and Osborne will be his point negotiator to achieve this.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2016

    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    The Scottish referendum (which wasn't THAT close) shows what can happen - the losers did indeed feel cheated, and are voting accordingly. And yes, I think that people who are OK with membership will feel cheated if we pull out by a margin of 1%. There are always reasons to find - X promised Y and it didn't happen, Z made claim A and it's proved false.

    But I'd like to put an alternative scenario. Most people are demonstrably not very interested at the moment, despite years of pretty intense debate. I think one could even make a case that most people are already bored by the referendum, and will get more so as the campaign finally starts. They will be bemused and mildly irritated as the whole political class starts obsessing about it.

    For those of us who do care, the question is what those bored people will do. I think most will probably vote in the end, and will probably vote Remain, but that's just a gut feeling. Is there polling data on "certain to vote in the EU referendum"?
    I agree.

    I think DH is completely wrong (a rarity for him!) In believing that a result either way would "lance the boil" within the Tory party over Europe. That is no surgical lancet, that is a stake through the heart!

    Supporters of all other UK parties from UKIP to Greens will make the most out of Tory contortions and deliberate self harm over the issue.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    The Scottish referendum (which wasn't THAT close) shows what can happen - the losers did indeed feel cheated, and are voting accordingly. And yes, I think that people who are OK with membership will feel cheated if we pull out by a margin of 1%. There are always reasons to find - X promised Y and it didn't happen, Z made claim A and it's proved false.

    But I'd like to put an alternative scenario. Most people are demonstrably not very interested at the moment, despite years of pretty intense debate. I think one could even make a case that most people are already bored by the referendum, and will get more so as the campaign finally starts. They will be bemused and mildly irritated as the whole political class starts obsessing about it.

    For those of us who do care, the question is what those bored people will do. I think most will probably vote in the end, and will probably vote Remain, but that's just a gut feeling. Is there polling data on "certain to vote in the EU referendum"?
    The referendum may well be won or lost on who pisses the voters off more: Farage and co on one side, or Eurocrats on the other.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    Something @Cyclefree may find interesting

    Former trader Tom Hayes on learning to survive in prison https://t.co/bL9MIzPk5A via @harrynwilson @TimesMagazine https://t.co/K6SivLccl7

    Good morning.

    Yes - I have read. Based on my knowledge of him and others who have given equally "poor me" interviews, I treat such articles as largely fictional.

    A more interesting article would be about those harmed by the activities of people like him - and by "harm" I don't mean the loss of bonus. Fraud is never a victimless crime. It's deeply corrosive of trust and the sentences for it in this country are, still, far too low, both in theory and in practice.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    i found Jeffrey Archer's first couple of Prison Diaries gripping - read them both in one go.

    Never bothered with Aitken's - anyone read that?
    Cyclefree said:

    Something @Cyclefree may find interesting

    Former trader Tom Hayes on learning to survive in prison https://t.co/bL9MIzPk5A via @harrynwilson @TimesMagazine https://t.co/K6SivLccl7

    Good morning.

    Yes - I have read. Based on my knowledge of him and others who have given equally "poor me" interviews, I treat such articles as largely fictional.

    A more interesting article would be about those harmed by the activities of people like him - and by "harm" I don't mean the loss of bonus. Fraud is never a victimless crime. It's deeply corrosive of trust and the sentences for it in this country are, still, far too low, both in theory and in practice.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    Because both sides will deploy dodgy stats, hyperbolic threats and projection, and nightmare visions of the future that the other side will regard as not valid arguments. If it's close then there'll be a strong sense of consolation to channel the anger of those who lost in the argument that the vote was stolen on the back of lies.

    And yes, if it's a close Leave than I do expect Stay-ers to point to the vote being won by racist and xenophobic arguments, or the like.
    So do I. And if it's only Stay because of non-English votes those arguments will be shouted from everywhere in the green and pleasant land that isn't flooded at the time.

    Would be poetic justice if REMAIN win due to Scottish votes. My fingers and toes are crossed.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Excellent piece as usual Mr Herdson, you confirm (not deliberately I understand) what I wrote here several weeks ago, that this referendum will shape Cameron's legacy, something that PMs are obsessed with. Will he resign as the knight in shining armour that repelled both the Scot Nats and Eurosceptics, or will he resign in abject failure after we leave his beloved EU. This referendum, the outcome of which is largely out of his control, has become the defining moment in his career, the man must be tortured by it.

    Changing the subject slightly, I do chuckle at some of the prediction posts on here, it seems some otherwise rational posters confuse predictions with wish lists. Just because I want Spurs to win the league doesn't mean I think they will.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    The failure of the EU to deal with its major problems, because it is inherently useless at quickly resolving issues, is I think an important point to set as context to all these issues. For one, it means even if there is the will to form some kind of deal with Cameron to get that irritating issue dealt with to focus on more can kicking on the other issues, they will likely do so poorly and perhaps ineffectively, because they don't care about it (yes, they don't want it to occur in the sense of it aggravating the issues with things about the EU project they do care about, but I no longer believe the EU has any wish to address any concerns the UK has from believing they are genuine, only they need to shut us up occasionally), which aids Leave's attempts to portray its arguments as more reasonable - as the point about both sides making exaggerated claims is entirely correct.

    I've long thought Leave had a chance, before I supported Leave in fact, and the pessimism of some on that side about Cameron 'fixing' the referendum I thought was unwarranted (he will of course claim any deal is a decent one, but there are enough media and Tory figures who will take the alternate view for the public to consider the matter carefully), but I'd still give Remain the edge. Fear will trump low level dissatisfaction in the end I think.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited January 2016
    Eng 49-0 after the first hour. Looking comfortable for Cook and Hales so far.

    Lay-the-draw is as low as 3.65 on Betfair, seems generous with no rain forecast for the next four days and a small chance of the odd shower on day 5
    http://www.weather.com/weather/5day/l/SFXX0010:1:SF
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    No no no you can't say that fact. It's a racist fact. https://t.co/mt1yUQOQvt

    Student cheating seems endemic.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Roger said:

    DH

    "And that’s what will be at the heart of the referendum: who will be believed most? Claim and counter-claim will be rife, with both sides making exaggerated claims about the costs should the other side win".


    ........Having just returned from Venice I wondered how anyone could fail to be excited that such a magical city is now part of our extended family of nations. Europe is such a wonderful eclectic place that we should embrace it as tightly as we can. It's future should be our future.

    For the debate to be reduced to nickels and dimes is very depressing. We're such philistines

    I don't personally find that argument convincing, but it is refreshing to see someone arguing to Remain in a slightly poetic, romantic way, as I cannot imagine many such arguments being made during the hell that will be this campaign. Even the philistine bit I find less offensive that the sneering contempt of the EU bureaucrats and supporting heads of government, who then have to pretend that they are not being contemptuous.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Will high or low turnout help Remain or Leave? Just wondering if they should go for a deep midwinter referendum debate, since apparently, for some reason, outside temperature might have significant effects on turnout.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    Sandpit said:

    Eng 49-0 after the first hour. Looking comfortable for Cook and Hales so far.

    That's the sort of comment I get into trouble for making. But so far SA's attack looks to be missing the menace that Steyn gives them. Good, honest and quick but not a lot of guile.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992

    surbiton said:

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Andy will be happy. Wind producing 23% of UK electricity right now.

    Biomass 5.81%. Solar 0% [ this is before sunrise: nothing wrong with solar panels before the sceptics start writing in ]

    http://energinet.dk/EN/El/Sider/Elsystemet-lige-nu.aspx

    In Denmark, on the other hand, wind is actually producing more than current consumption. Big "exports" to Norway and Sweden but also substantial imports from Germany.

    'Sceptics' is a loaded word to be using at 6am. ;)

    You miss the point. Having a high percentage of generation by wind is meaningless if we still need conventional power stations for times when wind is generating next to nothing. It just adds massive costs on to consumers' bills. They are also much less efficient that promised, as they 'forgot' some rather obvious fundamentals. (1)

    (It would be good if we could get figures, especially real-time, for generation from individual wind farms. Technically this should be very easy, as the figures will be known by both the generators and the grid)

    Energy security is what matters, and wind has a place within that. But too much wind power can be problematic, as Germany is finding out. Until the peaks and troughs can be levelled out, by either pan-Europe grid or storage, then wind is an expensive mess.

    (1): http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2013/02/rethinking-wind-power
    The fundamental problem with wind power is government incentives that buy wind electricity at a non-market price. If you say that you will always buy wind at - say - 5p per MWh (I can't remember the exact number, and am just guessing), then people will keep building them. This means that at times of high winds the market for non-win generation completely disappears. You then end up having to subsidise non-wind power (through capacity payments) to stop people shutting traditional power stations...

    That being said, as I've repeated approximately 1,000,000 times on here, there is little to no risk of brown-outs, black-outs, etc in the UK, even with all the coal and nuclear plants going off stream. We are simply going to have quite a lot of Open Cycle Gas Turbines (which have very low capital cost, but quite high running costs) installed.
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    Are Al-Beeb being 'hacktovisted' again?
    The connection was reset

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    Maybe they require more 'bennies'...?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    In fairness, too, I don't think the refugee crisis is primarily about the EU. If it didn't exist, we'd see numerous countries wrestling with it individually. What we see is primarily a consequence of Syria's bloody civil war plus Merkel's emphatic welcome. It's difficult to see why any rational Syrian who isn't a super-enthusiast for any of the sides wouldn't rather start a new life in Germany - if Britain was divided into multiple warring factions and say 20% of the population had already died or fled, wouldn't we feel the same? So it just comes down to whether the ardours of the journey make it worth trying. And if millions of Syrians are having a go and you're not very happy in, say, Bosnia, you might well want to join in.

    Despite the hopes/fears of others, the German electorate has wrinkled its brow a bit but on the whole stayed loyal to the Government. Other countries have to put up with the awkward consequences of people trying to get there, and still would if the EU didn't exist.

    That said, I wonder if the Syrian conflict isn't winding down. ISIS is clearly on the defensive, and everyone else is edging towards some sort of deal. Possibly 2016 will see the collapse of the Caliphate and an uneasy, squabbling cease-fire like the Ukraine, and the pressure of refugees will somewhat ease. If so, then muddling through may turn out to have been the best strategy, as it often is - as Fox points out, it's the traditional British way too.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited January 2016
    Nice to see James Delignpole getting in a PBish mood

    If I was elected your dictator for life, this is what I’d ban in 2016

    I don't care about his point 2 (slimline tonic water) except where it applies to semi-skimmed milk. A few splashes of proper milk would ruin someone's health? Give me a break.

    Also this one

    Signs that begin: ‘For your comfort and convenience…’ before forbidding you from doing something that, actually, you’d find both comforting and convenient.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/will-you-survive-the-delingpole-era/
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Roger said:

    DH

    "And that’s what will be at the heart of the referendum: who will be believed most? Claim and counter-claim will be rife, with both sides making exaggerated claims about the costs should the other side win".


    ........Having just returned from Venice I wondered how anyone could fail to be excited that such a magical city is now part of our extended family of nations. Europe is such a wonderful eclectic place that we should embrace it as tightly as we can. It's future should be our future.

    For the debate to be reduced to nickels and dimes is very depressing. We're such philistines

    I do regret the fact that in the unlikely event of Brexit I'll never be able to leave the UK again. Still I'm fortunate in that I live near Dover so I can stand atop the cliffs and stare longingly at the Continent. I'm due to go to Italy this year but I'm fearful of booking until the referendum is over, imagine paying for flights and then being told leaving the country is impossible.



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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Not loading for me either. I never go there bar odd story linked there. Someone is pissed at them...

    Are Al-Beeb being 'hacktovisted' again?

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    Maybe they require more 'bennies'...?

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    DH

    "And that’s what will be at the heart of the referendum: who will be believed most? Claim and counter-claim will be rife, with both sides making exaggerated claims about the costs should the other side win".


    ........Having just returned from Venice I wondered how anyone could fail to be excited that such a magical city is now part of our extended family of nations. Europe is such a wonderful eclectic place that we should embrace it as tightly as we can. It's future should be our future.

    For the debate to be reduced to nickels and dimes is very depressing. We're such philistines

    I don't personally find that argument convincing, but it is refreshing to see someone arguing to Remain in a slightly poetic, romantic way, as I cannot imagine many such arguments being made during the hell that will be this campaign. Even the philistine bit I find less offensive that the sneering contempt of the EU bureaucrats and supporting heads of government, who then have to pretend that they are not being contemptuous.
    I think that roger is correct in one thing. The English relationship with Europe has long been dominated by money rather than more high falutin values. It is a several hundred year tradition.

    I share with roger the joy of pan european culture, and am proud of the part we have played in joining the former soviet sattelites firmly into the European mainstream.

    (Though of course Venice is not the best example, it was the Venetian merchants who schemed against the Byzantines for their own ends, and smashed that bastion of Christendom along with the Crusaders)
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    tlg86 said:

    The vote will probably lance the boil within the Tory Party either way, unless it's a close Remain (which it might well be), in which case the BOOers will feel cheated.

    I keep reading this. Why do you think the BOOers would feel cheated? Whether it's by one vote or 1 million votes, the result will be the result. Do you think those that want us to stay in will feel cheated if it's a close leave?
    The Scottish referendum (which wasn't THAT close) shows what can happen - the losers did indeed feel cheated, and are voting accordingly. And yes, I think that people who are OK with membership will feel cheated if we pull out by a margin of 1%. There are always reasons to find - X promised Y and it didn't happen, Z made claim A and it's proved false.

    But I'd like to put an alternative scenario. Most people are demonstrably not very interested at the moment, despite years of pretty intense debate. I think one could even make a case that most people are already bored by the referendum, and will get more so as the campaign finally starts. They will be bemused and mildly irritated as the whole political class starts obsessing about it.

    For those of us who do care, the question is what those bored people will do. I think most will probably vote in the end, and will probably vote Remain, but that's just a gut feeling. Is there polling data on "certain to vote in the EU referendum"?
    I agree.

    I think DH is completely wrong (a rarity for him!) In believing that a result either way would "lance the boil" within the Tory party over Europe. That is no surgical lancet, that is a stake through the heart!

    Supporters of all other UK parties from UKIP to Greens will make the most out of Tory contortions and deliberate self harm over the issue.
    I am making the caveat that only a clear result either way will close down the issue; if it's close then it will continue as a problem within the Tory Party. But if one side can convincingly say to the other 'you've had your chance and you lost', then it really doesn't give them anywhere to go, particularly if it's Leave that wins.
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