Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » We can’t assume that the Donald is out of it yet

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » We can’t assume that the Donald is out of it yet

The US pollster Public Policy Polling has a welcome practice of sending out Tweets like the one above to indicate significant trends in surveys some time before the poll is actually published.

Read the full story here


«13456

Comments

  • First! Like Cruz
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Second as Rubio will be...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    It was a big error for Trump to try to deliver a KO to Cruz in Iowa. He spent too much political capital and ended up only damaging himself. The final Iowa result would have looked pretty good for him if he hadn't been attacking Cruz so heavily.
  • I was right about Trump, he's all fart and no follow through.
  • Talking of successful betting strategies by me

    I don't want to DavidL the England cricket team, but I'm going to back England to win the World T20 tournament.

    You can get 8/1 with some bookies.
  • It seems Public Policy Polling have a pretty sassy approach to unsoliticed emails too:

    https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/694566756984188929
  • Giving too much credence to a single poll is an error. Giving too much credence to a tweet about a partial sample of a poll could be a big error. I'd be cautious.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    Listening to the very brief snippet of the PM's Statement (which the Daily Politics obviously doesn't deem as important as chatting to Chris Bryant...), it all sounds very good. The rebalancing of our relationship the PM said he always wanted. Well done Dave.

    But I'm confused. Did Tusk in error publish an earlier draft yesterday.....?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Corbyn is actually getting worse..his response is appalling
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    I put a few pence on Trump to be the next president last night - I think the logic in this article is pretty much right. Unless the Donald crashes in New Hampshire, he'll have momentum back in spades this time next week.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FPT Wanderer said:

    "It's a good point about fudge. It puzzles me when people complain that the EU fudges, is inconsistent, kicks the can down the road. These are things that we see as virtues in our own history. Or, rather, some of us do, which is perhaps the point."


    Fudges work when they are held together by the glue of a shared culture. We have that (or rather had it - Scotland's culture seems to be going a different route to E&W now) in Great Britain, so our fudges have worked. The EU does not have a shared culture, so there is no glue to hold the fudges together. Thus deals in the EU have to stand on their own merit - on the letter of the law.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    SeanT said:

    Is that a voodoo poll? If it isn't, if it's legit, that seems genuinely bad news for REMAIN

    They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite.
    SeanT, assume you are going to the Tiger's Nest? On expenses?

    Git.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite. ''

    Politicians are probably waiting to sniff the wind before they make a commitment.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,406

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Insulting the voters' intelligence is flavour of the month with this government.

    Of course, when you keep winning elections as a result of false consciousness, it isn't such a bad approach.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Isn't Corbyn meant to be asking questions?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Listening to the very brief snippet of the PM's Statement (which the Daily Politics obviously doesn't deem as important as chatting to Chris Bryant...), it all sounds very good. The rebalancing of our relationship the PM said he always wanted. Well done Dave.

    But I'm confused. Did Tusk in error publish an earlier draft yesterday.....?

    Lol. It's amazing how Dave can spin his derisory deal into sounding pretty decent.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @rafaelbehr: Imagine what a really impressive parliamentarian could have done to the PM at this moment.

    @JohnRentoul: Corbyn brilliantly united the Tory party at a moment of maximum potential division @rafaelbehr
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    SeanT said:

    Corbyn pointless again. If Cameron was facing a smart eurosceptic Labour leader he could be ripped apart.

    Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.
  • OT -- legal news -- Lord Lucan has died.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35481376
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    OT -- legal news -- Lord Lucan has died.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35481376

    RIP
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited February 2016
    FPT:
    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
  • Wanderer said:

    FPT:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
    The funny thing is, Farage wanted a 2015 referendum, so we have the farce of Kippers criticising Dave for holding an early referendum.
  • A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Wanderer said:

    FPT:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
    The funny thing is, Farage wanted a 2015 referendum, so we have the farce of Kippers criticising Dave for holding an early referendum.

    Farage only did that to make the GE about the EU, where he knew UKIP would get a boost.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan. ''

    You're joking. Pawns are well above the rank Osborne regards voters. Especially tax payers
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Insulting the voters' intelligence is flavour of the month with this government.

    Of course, when you keep winning elections as a result of false consciousness, it isn't such a bad approach.
    Lol - I love the last sentence. even you must have been laughing while you typed it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    OT -- legal news -- Lord Lucan has died.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35481376

    RIP :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    What about Boris' plan though :) ?
  • taffys said:

    ''They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite. ''

    Politicians are probably waiting to sniff the wind before they make a commitment.

    Wow. What an impressive set of leaders we have.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Wanderer said:

    FPT:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
    The funny thing is, Farage wanted a 2015 referendum, so we have the farce of Kippers criticising Dave for holding an early referendum.
    If you are for leave as you claim to be, then a late vote is in your interest as well... unless you are just undecided of course.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    taffys said:

    ''They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite. ''

    Politicians are probably waiting to sniff the wind before they make a commitment.

    Wow. What an impressive set of leaders we have.
    To be fair to Corbyn, he doesn't let public opinion worry him when it comes to his views.
  • A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    From my conversations in America, the Republicans I spoke to would love to have an Osborne/Cameron as nominee.

    Cuts the deficits year on year, doesn't appeal to a narrow extreme segment of the party, looks to make welfare work.
  • Pulpstar said:

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    What about Boris' plan though :) ?
    Leave might embrace Boris out of sheer desperation if he calculates there's something in it for him but none of them, nor us, will be fooled.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617

    If they couldn't prove who was driving the car how would tightening the law help?
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    SeanT said:

    Is that a voodoo poll? If it isn't, if it's legit, that seems genuinely bad news for REMAIN

    They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite.
    It seems to be weighted to fit the age and socioeconomic profile of the population but it's not clear that it's weighted by GE vote or how the respondents were selected. So might be semi-voodoo. Or not.
  • Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
    The funny thing is, Farage wanted a 2015 referendum, so we have the farce of Kippers criticising Dave for holding an early referendum.
    If you are for leave as you claim to be, then a late vote is in your interest as well... unless you are just undecided of course.
    My main interest is to keep on pointing the idiocy and hypocrisy of Kippers
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    From my conversations in America, the Republicans I spoke to would love to have an Osborne/Cameron as nominee.

    Cuts the deficits year on year, doesn't appeal to a narrow extreme segment of the party, looks to make welfare work.
    Did you speak to any Democrats btw ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    I agree and while the report says Trump's support has slipped it does not say he had lost the lead. Given he was polling above his national average in New Hampshire and below it in Iowa a good result in the Granite state would help him set up his comeback
  • Since I quoted Lord Burghley earlier, I will quote king Henry V for what I think is the best Leave slogan so far: 'Fellers, let's go'. (His words to kick off proceedings at Agincourt).
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Wanderer said:

    SeanT said:

    Is that a voodoo poll? If it isn't, if it's legit, that seems genuinely bad news for REMAIN

    They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite.
    It seems to be weighted to fit the age and socioeconomic profile of the population but it's not clear that it's weighted by GE vote or how the respondents were selected. So might be semi-voodoo. Or not.
    Hasn't the recent discussion been that weighting by GE vote is worse than useless. Taking an unrepresentative sample and then trying to weight it into a representative one gives you a GE2015 polling result.
  • Pulpstar said:

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    From my conversations in America, the Republicans I spoke to would love to have an Osborne/Cameron as nominee.

    Cuts the deficits year on year, doesn't appeal to a narrow extreme segment of the party, looks to make welfare work.
    Did you speak to any Democrats btw ?
    I did. They view Clinton like the next Tory leader. Very lucky in her choice of likely opponents.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Is that a voodoo poll? If it isn't, if it's legit, that seems genuinely bad news for REMAIN

    They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite.
    SeanT, assume you are going to the Tiger's Nest? On expenses?

    Git.
    Yes. Git indeed.
    I didn't realise you were pregnant @SeanT (or a camel)

    Congratulations!

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617

    If they couldn't prove who was driving the car how would tightening the law help?
    Increase the penalty for not declaring the driver?



  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
    The funny thing is, Farage wanted a 2015 referendum, so we have the farce of Kippers criticising Dave for holding an early referendum.
    If you are for leave as you claim to be, then a late vote is in your interest as well... unless you are just undecided of course.
    My main interest is to keep on pointing the idiocy and hypocrisy of Kippers
    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Boris Johnson looking dapper and wholly unconvinced by Dave's reply...
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Wow. What an impressive set of leaders we have.

    I have some sympathy with our politicians. We are in uncharted territory, because there hasn't been a referendum like this for decades. Nobody has an effing clue what the public think, or how they might vote, really.
  • Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    ''They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite. ''

    Politicians are probably waiting to sniff the wind before they make a commitment.

    Wow. What an impressive set of leaders we have.
    To be fair to Corbyn, he doesn't let public opinion worry him when it comes to his views.
    I have a lot of respect for Corbyn. He's clearly a deranged baglady with a personal hygiene issue and the wit of a turd - but... he believes what he believes and that drives his every word and action. He's totally wrong about everything. Honestly and consistently wrong. It's refreshing. He can't be let within a million miles of the levers of power. Amusing to observe though.
  • Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    You need to a get a sense of humour chip.

    Whether we are in or out of the EU, I will be optimistic about the future of this country, I care about it deeply.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    OT -- legal news -- Lord Lucan has died.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35481376

    RIP
    BIH probably more important.

    The guy murdered an innocent woman for no reason
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    SeanT said:

    Is that a voodoo poll? If it isn't, if it's legit, that seems genuinely bad news for REMAIN

    They must have been hoping for a poll boost from the "deal". Might not happen. Might get the opposite.
    It seems to be weighted to fit the age and socioeconomic profile of the population but it's not clear that it's weighted by GE vote or how the respondents were selected. So might be semi-voodoo. Or not.
    Hasn't the recent discussion been that weighting by GE vote is worse than useless. Taking an unrepresentative sample and then trying to weight it into a representative one gives you a GE2015 polling result.
    If you get, say, 40% Labour voters in such a poll it might skew it towards Remain? Or then again - and perhaps more likely - it might skew it to anti-Cameron?

    Either way, surely you need to weight the sample to ensure it reflects the political balance of the electorate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    From my conversations in America, the Republicans I spoke to would love to have an Osborne/Cameron as nominee.

    Cuts the deficits year on year, doesn't appeal to a narrow extreme segment of the party, looks to make welfare work.
    Sounds like Romney-Ryan unfortunately they had to face Obama not Ed Miliband
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    JonathanD said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617

    If they couldn't prove who was driving the car how would tightening the law help?
    Increase the penalty for not declaring the driver?
    :+1: If you're the named hirer of a vehicle and it's involved in an accident, and fail to know who was driving it then the law should act as if you were the driver.
    If it's hired by a company, joint and several liability on the directors.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    TSE is right, UKIP can't on one side say that we should have held a referendum immediately after the GE so Dave didn't have a chance to get a deal and now that the deal has been widely panned say we should delay for as long as possible so the migrant crisis flares up and the crap deal is fully digested.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JonathanD said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617

    If they couldn't prove who was driving the car how would tightening the law help?
    Increase the penalty for not declaring the driver?



    Sure, but at the moment it's 6 points + a fine.

    Tough to go much higher without breaching natural justice for what could just be an administrative oversight
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617

    If they couldn't prove who was driving the car how would tightening the law help?
    Increase the penalty for not declaring the driver?
    :+1: If you're the named hirer of a vehicle and it's involved in an accident, and fail to know who was driving it then the law should act as if you were the driver.
    If it's hired by a company, joint and several liability on the directors.
    Sounds good to me.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OT -- legal news -- Lord Lucan has died.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35481376

    RIP
    BIH probably more important.

    The guy murdered an innocent woman for no reason
    BIH ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    OT -- legal news -- Lord Lucan has died.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35481376

    RIP
    BIH probably more important.

    The guy murdered an innocent woman for no reason
    BIH ?
    Burn in hell.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    TSE is right, UKIP can't on one side say that we should have held a referendum immediately after the GE so Dave didn't have a chance to get a deal and now that the deal has been widely panned say we should delay for as long as possible so the migrant crisis flares up and the crap deal is fully digested.
    Of course they can, in the same way that Dave can say that he would cut immigration to 10's of thousand (no ifs, no buts) and then say it was an aspiration, and then brush it under the carpet all together and come out this latest crap. Politics appears sadly to be all about moral manoeuvrability and intellectual suppleness.

    Compared to the current round of lying through teeth, the adjustment of position of when a referendum should be held is pretty minor. In anycase Dave is pulled in when he wants it because the migration issues make it awkward for him, its entirely equitable for the kipper to push out their proposed time for the referendum for the same reasons.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Patrick said:

    Since I quoted Lord Burghley earlier, I will quote king Henry V for what I think is the best Leave slogan so far: 'Fellers, let's go'. (His words to kick off proceedings at Agincourt).

    I'm not sure Leave wants to evoke flinging oneself into a life and death struggle with meagre odds of survival.

    You want to convey calm, serenity, broad sunlit uplands.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


  • I think the fundamental problem with the EU deal is that it doesn't accommodate the clear parting of the ways between the UK (and a couple of other states) and the "core" of the EU, which still seems to be set out on a very different trajectory to us.

    Ultimately there will have to be A Deal that establishes some kind of "associate membership" of the EU - for Britain, maybe some of the Scandinavian countries, perhaps ultimately Turkey and Ukraine - with appropriate safeguards to stop them being overwhelmed by the numerically and economically dominant core group on their path to deeper integration.

    What Cameron is delivering is a deal, but it is not The Deal.

    So it's just a can kicked down the road. For now, most of us may decide it is a kickable can. But at some point the can can be kicked no further, and even (most of) the more europhile politicians have enough sense to realise the British public have minimal truck with joining the euro, pooling much more sovereignty with our neighbours or entering a federal European system.

    Like some others on here, I think in the Very Long Run it makes little difference whether we are on the fringes of the EU with an ever-increasing list of opt-outs, or in the EEA outside the EU. But we need to find a way to get there.
  • A net 25% are less likely to vote to stay in the EU as a result of the "deal".

    Great work, Dave.

    And tell Osborne to stop insulting the voters' intelligence.
    Voters are mere pawns in Osborne's masterplan.
    From my conversations in America, the Republicans I spoke to would love to have an Osborne/Cameron as nominee.

    Cuts the deficits year on year, doesn't appeal to a narrow extreme segment of the party, looks to make welfare work.
    Establishment politician admires politician's politician - shock.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/12137532/Europe-must-copy-Australia-and-stop-the-refugee-boats.html

    Related to a discussion that Robert and I were having a few days ago about stopping the refugees. Might be a good idea and I would love to see the left's heads collectively explode by putting one of the most conservative politicians in the western world in charge of immigration policy.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''But we need to find a way to get there. ''

    If what I have read on here in the last two days is correct, getting to the place where we have an agreement with the EU where we solely control everything but trade is impossible.

    If we truly want independence and control of borders we may have to live without any kind of trade agreement whatsoever, beyond what's in the WTO.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    runnymede said:

    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


    This is the tack that UKIP have to take IMO, play up the historical comparison with Maastricht, show all of the broken promises and show how the push for integration increased after we voted it through rather than decreased.
  • runnymede said:

    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


    The Conservative leadership wants the donations, groundpounding and day-to-day hard work of Conservative members, supporters, and voters and demands their gratitude and absolute loyalty in return.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    JonathanD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic:

    The law around this sort of crap needs to be tightened up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617

    If they couldn't prove who was driving the car how would tightening the law help?
    Increase the penalty for not declaring the driver?
    :+1: If you're the named hirer of a vehicle and it's involved in an accident, and fail to know who was driving it then the law should act as if you were the driver.
    If it's hired by a company, joint and several liability on the directors.
    Sounds good to me.
    What if it was stolen while on hire then, and you genuinely don't know who the driver was?
  • runnymede said:

    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


    What date was the referendum on the Maastricht treaty?
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    edited February 2016


    The Conservative leadership wants the donations, groundpounding and day-to-day hard work of Conservative members, supporters, and voters and demands their gratitude and absolute loyalty in return.

    History tells us that the next thing the membership do after their goodwill is exhausted is elect their own Corbyn.

    [edit] Peter Bone for next leader?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Another area in which UKIP could do well for Leave is to link the savings from membership fees of the EU to increased defence spending. It will play well with their own constituency and possibly harvest a lot of Tories who don't know where to go at the moment.

    Honestly if UKIP had dumped Nigel when they had the chance and put someone else in his place they would be taking Dave to the cleaners right now. 12% of the vote, won the EU election, their raison d'etre is now closer to being achieved than ever before and they are absolutely bloody nowhere to be seen and their leader seems to have gone mad.
  • @JGForsyth: Striking how civil Tory 'sceptics Qs have been. If it carries on this way, will be far easier than expected to put Tory party together again
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    David Cameron says he can "guarantee" the EU referendum will not take place within 6 weeks of the May elections. That leaves June 23 free.

    The Electoral Commission won't like it, or any date before mid-September, and if we are lucky someone might file for a Judicial Review on an early date on that basis :)
    People have been pissing on about the EU for my whole adult life and I'm 50. How can we possibly need more time? We could have the referendum tomorrow for all the light that will be shed during the campaign.
    Dave is desperate to get the vote through before there is a migrant crisis this summer. This is wholly disingenuous, it's trying to get the public to vote to stay in the EU before one of the major problems of being in the EU makes itself felt. I fail to see why anyone should feel the need to help him in this deception.
    You're saying that the migration crisis has not been in the news so the public won't be able to take it into account? That's what you're saying? Boats in the Mediterranean, Calais, Cologne, none of that has been reported and the voters are completely in the dark about it?
    No, I am saying its going to be an order of magnitude worse this summer, and that is going to have an effect on public perceptions. Care to suggest other reason for the unseemly scramble to get this negotiation done and dusted by the middle of the year at the latest, especially when a more lengthy coalition building attempt at renegotiation might have yielded rather more.
    I think it's in Remain/Cameron's interest to go early and Leave's to go late. Obviously Cameron will choose what's best for him.

    I disagree that it's unseemly though. The issue has been gnawed over for decades. There's nothing left to say. And migration is already a huuge deal for voters.
    The funny thing is, Farage wanted a 2015 referendum, so we have the farce of Kippers criticising Dave for holding an early referendum.
    If you are for leave as you claim to be, then a late vote is in your interest as well... unless you are just undecided of course.
    My main interest is to keep on pointing the idiocy and hypocrisy of Kippers
    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.
    Oh dear - very high on the kipper pomposity scale there :)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    taffys said:

    ''But we need to find a way to get there. ''

    If what I have read on here in the last two days is correct, getting to the place where we have an agreement with the EU where we solely control everything but trade is impossible.

    If we truly want independence and control of borders we may have to live without any kind of trade agreement whatsoever, beyond what's in the WTO.

    Too pessimistic, if Mexico (13th in the world for exports and 15th by GDP) and South Africa (37th/33rd) can negotiate Free Trade Agreements, I am sure the UK (5th/10th) can manage it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    MaxPB said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/12137532/Europe-must-copy-Australia-and-stop-the-refugee-boats.html

    Related to a discussion that Robert and I were having a few days ago about stopping the refugees. Might be a good idea and I would love to see the left's heads collectively explode by putting one of the most conservative politicians in the western world in charge of immigration policy.

    Raise the cost of getting here, and have camps that aren't in Europe. If you cut the chance of success by 50%, you probably cut the numbers even trying by 80%.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    runnymede said:

    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


    What date was the referendum on the Maastricht treaty?
    Isn't that the point though, "this time we get a say".
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'even (most of) the more europhile politicians have enough sense to realise the British public have minimal truck with joining the euro, pooling much more sovereignty with our neighbours or entering a federal European system.'

    Interestingly, Roy Jenkins - the epitome of the plummy Europhile one might think - actually mused late in his life that perhaps the UK was just not suited to being part of the EU project.

    Unfortunately the current crop of Europhiles are not motivated by his high-minded ideals (whether you agree with those ideals or not, I think that is a fair characterisation).

    Instead they are motivated by a mixture of careerism, narcissism and furthering a corporatist agenda.

    Like bullying supermarkets, they intend to submit their application for more integration over and over again until the public give in - or until the public tell them to f*** off.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    runnymede said:

    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


    Indeed: it is the fundamental dishonesty which is so corrosive of trust. The EU itself is quite open about its aims. Commendably so. Those who support it here should be equally frank. They are not, on the whole. The reason they are not is because they believe that, if they were, they would not get the support. They may be right but I wonder.

    But that dishonesty - and we see it now with this so-called deal - which gives us nothing at all of any substance risks ultimately dooming the whole project of anchoring Britain in the EU. But still the long term is pretty long term and Cameron has a referendum to win, so who cares, eh?

    It's depressing for those of us who want Europe to work effectively and to deal with the issues on its borders: wars, deep instability, severe risks from deeply hostile terrorist organisations, mass migration, challenges from the last two to European culture and values (in their widest sense), a hostile and defensive Russia, as well as the economic challenges around the globe.

  • Charles said:

    Sure, but at the moment it's 6 points + a fine.

    Tough to go much higher without breaching natural justice for what could just be an administrative oversight

    This could surely be dealt with either by giving the courts discretion to be sensible about administrative oversight, or by having two different offences, one an 'aggravated' offence involving injury.
  • Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    You need to a get a sense of humour chip.

    Whether we are in or out of the EU, I will be optimistic about the future of this country, I care about it deeply.
    Amen.

    To be fair, I think Cameron sincerely believes the same: I have no doubt he's genuinely patriotic and thinks it's in the best interests of the UK to Remain part of the EU club. He thinks seats at tables like this are worth almost any price in the broader UK national interest, and doesn't think we'd get anything better if we left.

    I think he's totally wrong, lacks confidence, imagination and negotiating skills, and is being disingenuous with the deal to the voters, and attempting to bully all his MPs, but I don't see him as someone who doesn't care about the UK.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/12137532/Europe-must-copy-Australia-and-stop-the-refugee-boats.html

    Related to a discussion that Robert and I were having a few days ago about stopping the refugees. Might be a good idea and I would love to see the left's heads collectively explode by putting one of the most conservative politicians in the western world in charge of immigration policy.

    Raise the cost of getting here, and have camps that aren't in Europe. If you cut the chance of success by 50%, you probably cut the numbers even trying by 80%.
    Agreed. Australia have showed that turning the boats around works.

    I think the Danish/Swiss solution will also work for them.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Not read the comments.. yet.. but would be surprised it the commentariat didn't agree that Jezza was so abjectly dismal today, it would hard to put up a worse performance. Surely Labour MP's cannot put up with it for much longer.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    You need to a get a sense of humour chip.

    Whether we are in or out of the EU, I will be optimistic about the future of this country, I care about it deeply.
    Amen.

    To be fair, I think Cameron sincerely believes the same: I have no doubt he's genuinely patriotic and thinks it's in the best interests of the UK to Remain part of the EU club. He thinks seats at tables like this are worth almost any price in the broader UK national interest, and doesn't think we'd get anything better if we left.

    I think he's totally wrong, lacks confidence, imagination and negotiating skills, and is being disingenuous with the deal to the voters, and attempting to bully all his MPs, but I don't see him as someone who doesn't care about the UK.
    Yes, absolutely agreed. I think that's why I don't hate him, he is trying to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation. I disagree with him profusely, but I can't say that he is acting maliciously to further the interests of some outside entity. Osborne on the other hand...
  • I think the fundamental problem with the EU deal is that it doesn't accommodate the clear parting of the ways between the UK (and a couple of other states) and the "core" of the EU, which still seems to be set out on a very different trajectory to us.

    Ultimately there will have to be A Deal that establishes some kind of "associate membership" of the EU - for Britain, maybe some of the Scandinavian countries, perhaps ultimately Turkey and Ukraine - with appropriate safeguards to stop them being overwhelmed by the numerically and economically dominant core group on their path to deeper integration.

    What Cameron is delivering is a deal, but it is not The Deal.

    So it's just a can kicked down the road. For now, most of us may decide it is a kickable can. But at some point the can can be kicked no further, and even (most of) the more europhile politicians have enough sense to realise the British public have minimal truck with joining the euro, pooling much more sovereignty with our neighbours or entering a federal European system.

    Like some others on here, I think in the Very Long Run it makes little difference whether we are on the fringes of the EU with an ever-increasing list of opt-outs, or in the EEA outside the EU. But we need to find a way to get there.

    I think you make reasonable points, I don't go all the way with the detail but you make fair points.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Isn't that the point though, "this time we get a say".'

    Exactly - partly by accident, we finally have a chance to break this cycle of abuse, and stop going back to our nasty partner for another dose.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    Cyclefree said:

    runnymede said:

    'Even just a smart leader, wouldn't need to be Eurosceptic. There are some out and out lies coming from the Tory leadership at the moment. The "red card" isn't like any red card in sport, the migrant deal is worthless and the non-EMU protections are worthless however much Richard N likes to dress it up.'

    Yes. For the second time in the last 25 years the Conservative leadership is perpetrating a massive fraud about the EU on the voters.

    Last time, we had careerist/airhead (delete as applicable) Tory MPs queueing up to tell us what a great deal for the UK Maastricht was, and how it 'would put the break on [EU] Federalism'.

    And we had that nice Mr.Major being all soothing to the public while the whips and party machine ruthlessly bullied MPs who dissented.

    Spot the difference with now. It's exactly the same playbook.


    Indeed: it is the fundamental dishonesty which is so corrosive of trust. The EU itself is quite open about its aims. Commendably so. Those who support it here should be equally frank. They are not, on the whole. The reason they are not is because they believe that, if they were, they would not get the support. They may be right but I wonder.

    But that dishonesty - and we see it now with this so-called deal - which gives us nothing at all of any substance risks ultimately dooming the whole project of anchoring Britain in the EU. But still the long term is pretty long term and Cameron has a referendum to win, so who cares, eh?

    It's depressing for those of us who want Europe to work effectively and to deal with the issues on its borders: wars, deep instability, severe risks from deeply hostile terrorist organisations, mass migration, challenges from the last two to European culture and values (in their widest sense), a hostile and defensive Russia, as well as the economic challenges around the globe.

    Just once in a while, could you post something that is completely bat-shit crazy? It's kinda dispiriting for the rest of us to see post after post that is so well-argued and completely on the money....

    It's also dispiriting that no politician seems to have half your intuition.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Charles said:

    Sure, but at the moment it's 6 points + a fine.

    Tough to go much higher without breaching natural justice for what could just be an administrative oversight

    This could surely be dealt with either by giving the courts discretion to be sensible about administrative oversight, or by having two different offences, one an 'aggravated' offence involving injury.
    One of the issues with alot of motoring law is that it is all "strict liability" and courts have very little discretion. That's an error in my view.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    "RMT to recommend night Tube deal"

    One union down, the others will surely collapse following it. Now just to deal with the Junior Doctors and happy days. :)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35484773
  • Pulpstar said:

    One of the issues with alot of motoring law is that it is all "strict liability" and courts have very little discretion. That's an error in my view.

    Yes, this 'strict liability' concept is an abomination in most areas of law.
  • MaxPB said:

    Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    You need to a get a sense of humour chip.

    Whether we are in or out of the EU, I will be optimistic about the future of this country, I care about it deeply.
    Amen.

    To be fair, I think Cameron sincerely believes the same: I have no doubt he's genuinely patriotic and thinks it's in the best interests of the UK to Remain part of the EU club. He thinks seats at tables like this are worth almost any price in the broader UK national interest, and doesn't think we'd get anything better if we left.

    I think he's totally wrong, lacks confidence, imagination and negotiating skills, and is being disingenuous with the deal to the voters, and attempting to bully all his MPs, but I don't see him as someone who doesn't care about the UK.
    Yes, absolutely agreed. I think that's why I don't hate him, he is trying to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation. I disagree with him profusely, but I can't say that he is acting maliciously to further the interests of some outside entity. Osborne on the other hand...
    Yup, Freudian slip? I guess that you do disagree with him profusely.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profusely
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Indigo said:

    Oh... and there I was thinking you were interested in the future of your country, sorry, my mistake.

    You need to a get a sense of humour chip.

    Whether we are in or out of the EU, I will be optimistic about the future of this country, I care about it deeply.
    Amen.

    To be fair, I think Cameron sincerely believes the same: I have no doubt he's genuinely patriotic and thinks it's in the best interests of the UK to Remain part of the EU club. He thinks seats at tables like this are worth almost any price in the broader UK national interest, and doesn't think we'd get anything better if we left.

    I think he's totally wrong, lacks confidence, imagination and negotiating skills, and is being disingenuous with the deal to the voters, and attempting to bully all his MPs, but I don't see him as someone who doesn't care about the UK.
    Yes, absolutely agreed. I think that's why I don't hate him, he is trying to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation. I disagree with him profusely, but I can't say that he is acting maliciously to further the interests of some outside entity. Osborne on the other hand...
    I don't despise him for his europhile views, much as I disagree with them, I despise him for being unprincipled and will claim shit is the same as sugar if it gets the outcome he wants.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    "When AccountingWEB approached McDonnell’s press office for clarification we were threatened with legal action "
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    Sure, but at the moment it's 6 points + a fine.

    Tough to go much higher without breaching natural justice for what could just be an administrative oversight

    This could surely be dealt with either by giving the courts discretion to be sensible about administrative oversight, or by having two different offences, one an 'aggravated' offence involving injury.
    One of the issues with alot of motoring law is that it is all "strict liability" and courts have very little discretion. That's an error in my view.
    Not all is lost. Some years back, I had six points on my licence. A speeding ticket came through for a car that both my wife and I used. We genuinely didn't know who had driven that car on the day concerned. I asked for a picture, but the rear view of the car from the camera didn't give any clues to the driver*. As it was registered in my name, I had to respond. Because of the 6 point penalty for not giving the name of the party driving, I said that I had to plead guilty because I couldn't risk 12 points and a ban.

    It came before the magistrates - where the court refused to accept my guilty plea. The prosecutor got rather flustered - and couldn't show who was driving either. In the end, it got thrown out. So in that case, I felt the court had been eminently sensible!

    *Cameras which face the car and take an image of the driver would cure this issue. But then, they would be much more visible - and wouldn't generate as much revenue.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    This is from the right-wing NY Observer, so caveats about the source. But if this is indeed true, things do not look good for Hillaryworld:

    "Discussions with Intelligence Community officials have revealed that Ms. Clinton’s “unclassified” emails included Holy Grail items of American espionage such as the true names of Central Intelligence Agency intelligence officers serving overseas under cover. Worse, some of those exposed are serving under non-official cover. NOCs (see this for an explanation of their important role in espionage) are the pointy end of the CIA spear and they are always at risk of exposure – which is what Ms. Clinton’s emails have done.

    "Not only have these spies had their lives put in serious risk by this, it’s a clear violation of Federal law. The Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, enacted due to the murder of the CIA’s station chief in Athens after his cover was blown by the left-wing media, makes it a Federal crime to divulge the true identity of any covert operative serving U.S. intelligence if that person has not previous been publicly acknowledged to be working for our spy agencies."
  • Pulpstar said:

    "When AccountingWEB approached McDonnell’s press office for clarification we were threatened with legal action "
    I know...charming eh.
  • On topic, Rand Paul has just suspended his campaign.
This discussion has been closed.