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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » William Hill makes it 7/1 that Cameron will step down this

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited February 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » William Hill makes it 7/1 that Cameron will step down this year

William Hill say political punters have been backing David Cameron to stand down as Tory leader either this year or next, in anticipation of either a defeat or only narrow win in the EU Referendum, which has to take place before the end of 2017.

Read the full story here


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    Labour candidate for Ogmore by-election in Chris Elmore. Vale of Glamorgan Cllr and 2015 GE there. He stood for NPF last year in the Labour First slate.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2016
    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.
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    Man Utd piss poor again.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,298
    edited February 2016

    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited February 2016
    Whether the PM stands down following a Leave result depends very much on how he treats his own party between now and the referendum. If the PCP think they've been stitched up there will be a lot of letters making their way to the 1922 Chairman in the aftermath. It may not be up to Cameron whether he stands down or not.
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    I agree. Also, "out" represents a huge potentially range of different options, with something potentially very disruptive at one end and basically a rebranding of the current arrangement at the other. Would he really want to hand the power to decide over to his opponents?
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
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    FPT:
    viewcode said:

    Strictly speaking, a Russian attack against Turkey from Syria isn't covered by Article 5. From the NATO website:

    Article 5

    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.


    Asia Minor is not "in Europe or North America".

    In what may be the oddest intervention ever on this board, the Unfair Contracts Act does not permit contracts that can never be triggered.

    This would contradict your argument that (because Turkey is not in Europe nor North America) an attack on it isn't covered
    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2016
    I don't think he will resign immediately after a defeat in the referendum.

    He can take cover on the fact that no PM has resigned because of a referendum result, and he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years.

    Of course he can surprise everyone by staying neutral or going for Leave.
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Cameron will stay..regardless of ref outcome..
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    Beyoncé's Super Bowl poster boy for Black Lives Matter was 'high on drugs' then stabbed me and threatened to keep doing it - before he was gunned down by cops, reveals victim

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3444117/Beyonce-s-Super-Bowl-poster-boy-Black-Lives-Matters-agitated-paranoid-stabbed-threatened-doing-gunned-cops.html
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    That was forced by the mathematics of the election result, though.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954
    The end of Van Gaal?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954
    Speedy said:

    I don't think he will resign immediately after a defeat in the referendum.

    He can take cover on the fact that no PM has resigned because of a referendum result, and he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years.

    Of course he can surprise everyone by staying neutral or going for Leave.

    He's slightly painted himself into a corner, though. Because he's calling his renegotiation a triumph, it's hard for him to say "whoops, sorry, got it wrong"
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    That was forced by the mathematics of the election result, though.
    This one would be forced by the mathematics of the referendum result.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710
    Speedy said:

    ...He can take cover on the fact that no PM has resigned because of a referendum result...

    He can try, certainly. I'd crack myself laughing if he did, but if he wants the limo and the salary that much...

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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    That was different: different means, similar ends - and all prepared for. Leave / Remain is pretty much a binary outcome. And he's said he's going anyway, so what's to hang about for?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710

    FPT:

    viewcode said:

    Strictly speaking, a Russian attack against Turkey from Syria isn't covered by Article 5. From the NATO website:

    Article 5

    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.


    Asia Minor is not "in Europe or North America".

    In what may be the oddest intervention ever on this board, the Unfair Contracts Act does not permit contracts that can never be triggered.

    This would contradict your argument that (because Turkey is not in Europe nor North America) an attack on it isn't covered
    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

    I've already responded to this on the previous thread.
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    The problem for Cameron is the level of opposition he has created inside his party. There is a very large group of his members who no longer trust him because of his actions. Remain or Leave, Cameron cannot unite his party after the referendum.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    Barry Fry?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    Barry Fry?
    LOL...Well he is an old boy of Man Utd...Is he still involved with Peterborough? I have to say I miss the likes of Bazza, Holloway, etc in management.
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    That was forced by the mathematics of the election result, though.
    This one would be forced by the mathematics of the referendum result.
    The referendum result has no direct bearing on the make-up of the government. If Cameron hadn't got the coalition with the LDs there would have had to be another election, which at the very least was unpalatable.

    If we vote to Leave then we need a PM for the rest of the parliament who can successfully lead the withdrawal negotiations. That can't be anyone whose public opinion has been that Leaving would be a disaster.

    So unless he changes his tone before the referendum or finds a way to delay starting the two year clock under Article 50 he seems likely to be forced out by his backbenchers.
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    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    Barry Fry?
    LOL...Well he is an old boy of Man Utd...Is he still involved with Peterborough?
    Yup: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/feb/09/barry-fry-peterborough-united-bright-future-fa-cup
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    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    Barry Fry?
    LOL...Well he is an old boy of Man Utd...Is he still involved with Peterborough?
    Yup: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/feb/09/barry-fry-peterborough-united-bright-future-fa-cup
    "the sales of Dwight Gayle, Britt Assombalonga, Craig Mackail-Smith (Fry’s son-in-law), Ryan Bennett, George Boyd, Aaron McLean, Paul Taylor and most recently, Conor Washington, have made the League One side over £25m."

    The Del Boy of lower league football...lovely jubbly...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2016
    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited February 2016
    BAFTA Chairperson is now saying there are not enough Black and Ethnic nominees at the awards..I always thought that the awards were give for excellent performances and products...not the colour of ones skin...how fu5king demeaning is that..Any Black or Ethnic deserved winner would always wonder if it was a token gesture..
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    A manager-less Man United would be better than carrying on with this turnip.
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    viewcode said:

    FPT:

    viewcode said:

    Strictly speaking, a Russian attack against Turkey from Syria isn't covered by Article 5. From the NATO website:

    Article 5

    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.


    Asia Minor is not "in Europe or North America".

    In what may be the oddest intervention ever on this board, the Unfair Contracts Act does not permit contracts that can never be triggered.

    This would contradict your argument that (because Turkey is not in Europe nor North America) an attack on it isn't covered
    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

    I've already responded to this on the previous thread.
    The point is that if Turkey wants to play silly beggars and invites an attack from Russia in Syria due to what it's doing in Syria, then there is no legal obligation for other NATO members to come to its defence. It wouldn't be an abrogation of treaty duties but a judgement call. Worried Foreign Ministries would do well to quietly mention that to Turkish ambassadors.
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    Yes. Dave is the greatest 'water off a duck's back' prime minister this country has ever seen. Remember the first Syria vote? People were saying he'd have to resign if he lost it. The next days he was carrying on as if he'd more or less got his preferred outcome anyway. One may hope for many things from a leave win. But if the crushing and humiliation of Dave is what you're after, you're going to be disappointed.
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    surbiton said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    A manager-less Man United would be better than carrying on with this turnip.
    I have to say, there are really s##t at the moment.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,477

    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    Yes. Dave is the greatest 'water off a duck's back' prime minister this country has ever seen. Remember the first Syria vote? People were saying he'd have to resign if he lost it. The next days he was carrying on as if he'd more or less got his preferred outcome anyway. One may hope for many things from a leave win. But if the crushing and humiliation of Dave is what you're after, you're going to be disappointed.
    I hope he survives, then I will be able to afford the Fat Duck tasting menu in about 2019.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2016
    How did I miss this:

    http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Ted-Cruz-campaign-defends-pastor-who-said-God-will-send-hunters-for-Jews-444644

    " Kansas evangelical Pastor Mike Bickle, whose endorsement the campaign publicized last month, runs a controversial project called "Israel Mandate." "

    " In a sermon in 2011, Bickle said God would give Jews a chance to convert to Christianity and “raise up the hunters” against those who refuse. Bickle called Hitler “the most famous hunter in recent history.” In 2005, Bickle said in a sermon that before Jesus’ coming, “a significant number of Jews will be in work camps, prison camps or death camps.”

    Nick Muzin, a senior adviser to the Texas senator’s campaign, said Bickle was referring to biblical passages. "

    This is not big news in america, yet.
    Though it probably will if Cruz gains altitude in the polls.
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    surbiton said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The end of Van Gaal?

    How many times have we said that. I can only presume that Man Utd can't agree a deal with a replacement (perhaps they also missed out on their number 1 target ;-) ).
    A manager-less Man United would be better than carrying on with this turnip.
    I have to say, there are really s##t at the moment.
    It's certainly hard right now to see anyone outside the current top 4 breaking in before May.
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    Speedy said:

    I don't think he will resign immediately after a defeat in the referendum.

    He can take cover on the fact that no PM has resigned because of a referendum result, and he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years.

    Of course he can surprise everyone by staying neutral or going for Leave.

    It'd be a bloody big surprise after his recent speeches.

    Of the precedent, there've only been two UK-wide referendums, and in both the PM was on the winning side, so you've a 'division by zero' problem looking for resignations.

    More pertinent might be Salmond's resignation after losing the IndyRef (and that was after starting behind and coming close to winning).

    What would the point of staying on be? There are others who could negotiate Leave, and would be more trusted to do so.
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    Yes. Dave is the greatest 'water off a duck's back' prime minister this country has ever seen. Remember the first Syria vote? People were saying he'd have to resign if he lost it. The next days he was carrying on as if he'd more or less got his preferred outcome anyway. One may hope for many things from a leave win. But if the crushing and humiliation of Dave is what you're after, you're going to be disappointed.
    The difference is the attitude of the Tory backbenches. The Syria vote was Thatcher's Sunday Trading bill; the EU is, well, the EC.
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    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,779
    I think the Sage of SW15 should be credited for this tip. Highlighted and recommended here at odds of 12/1 by Peter from Putney on 5/2/16 at 5.45 a.m.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited February 2016
    Maomentum
    Election strategy 1:

    Voters who never vote and will never vote will vote for left wing programme.

    Election strategy 2:

    Voters who felt Miliband programme too Tory-lite so voted Tory will be vote for REAL left wing programme.

    Election strategy 3:

    Voters who thought Miliband too left wing are Tory scum and need to attend people's PPE course for re-education.
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    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    He hasn't shown any signs of hedging over the referendum, though, has he? Can he pull off what you suggest if he hasn't at any point said that Leave wouldn't be a disaster?
    He's good at pivots like this, remember the "big, open offer to the Liberal Democrats".
    Yes. Dave is the greatest 'water off a duck's back' prime minister this country has ever seen. Remember the first Syria vote? People were saying he'd have to resign if he lost it. The next days he was carrying on as if he'd more or less got his preferred outcome anyway. One may hope for many things from a leave win. But if the crushing and humiliation of Dave is what you're after, you're going to be disappointed.
    The difference is the attitude of the Tory backbenches. The Syria vote was Thatcher's Sunday Trading bill; the EU is, well, the EC.
    Also with Syria he was let off the hook by EdM's appalling behaviour.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710

    viewcode said:

    FPT:

    viewcode said:

    Strictly speaking, a Russian attack against Turkey from Syria isn't covered by Article 5. From the NATO website:

    Article 5

    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.


    Asia Minor is not "in Europe or North America".

    In what may be the oddest intervention ever on this board, the Unfair Contracts Act does not permit contracts that can never be triggered.

    This would contradict your argument that (because Turkey is not in Europe nor North America) an attack on it isn't covered
    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

    I've already responded to this on the previous thread.
    The point is that if Turkey wants to play silly beggars and invites an attack from Russia in Syria due to what it's doing in Syria, then there is no legal obligation for other NATO members to come to its defence. It wouldn't be an abrogation of treaty duties but a judgement call. Worried Foreign Ministries would do well to quietly mention that to Turkish ambassadors.
    Can I call this the Blame-The-Victim meme? We've already seen this in the Ukraine ("It's the EU's fault Russia attacked the Ukraine. Naughty EU!"). Now you're suggesting we use it for Turkey ("It's Turkey's fault Russia attacked the Turkey. Naughty Turkey!").

  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2016
    I am quite certain that, if there is a Leave result, then we will need a new PM to handle the extremely contentious negotiation on the exit terms. I cannot realistically see how Cameron, and others closely identified with the renegotiate-and-remain strategy, could realistically do that, or would want to.

    However, I'm not very convinced by this bet. The timescale looks too short too me. At the very earliest, the referendum will be at the end of June, so the bet has only just over 6 months at a maximum to run. If the result is Leave, the immediate effect will be political and economic pandemonium. No one has the faintest idea what kind of new arrangement the UK would or should try to put in place; it's not as though there is a ready-made Leave team with an agreed and coherent plan for an alternative arrangement ready to step in and try to implement it. The government's (and the Conservative Party's) immediate and overriding priorities would therefore have to be (a) to steady the ship, and (b) to begin the debate on what Leave might actually mean. I'd expect Cameron to stay on for a bit for both reasons.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    @Richard_Nabavi Hills ensured the bet remained largely a theoretical issue at 12-1 anyway.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited February 2016
    If the Leave vote wins then Cameron will simply say that although he was in favour of remain he will respect the will of the UK population and secure a beneficial withdrawal..that should take a couple of years..job done..One thing Cameron is not...a quitter..
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710
    edited February 2016
    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
    That's a fair point.

    On the other hand, he screwed them up by focusing on the referendum when he should have been focusing on getting a good deal. With no referendum in the pipeline, that might not be the case.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    Oh its an unlikely scenario but one that he'd be foolish not to consider as it would be an easy sell. He would be seen as a PM "doing the right thing". He'd effectively finish Ukip for good and isolate Labour even further.

    Perhaps this is the masterplan and why tory MPs are so reticent at playing their hand.
  • Options

    I am quite certain that, if there is a Leave result, then we will need a new PM to handle the extremely contentious negotiation on the exit terms. I cannot realistically see how Cameron, and others closely identified with the renegotiate-and-remain strategy, could realistically do that, or would want to.

    However, I'm not very convinced by this bet. The timescale looks too short too me. At the very earliest, the referendum will be at the end of June, so the bet has only just over 6 months at a maximum to run. If the result is Leave, the immediate effect will be political and economic pandemonium. No one has the faintest idea what kind of new arrangement the UK would or should try to put in place; it's not as though there is a ready-made Leave team with an agreed and coherent plan for an alternative arrangement ready to step in and try to implement it. The government's (and the Conservative Party's) immediate and overriding priorities would therefore have to be (a) to steady the ship, and (b) to begin the debate on what Leave might actually mean. I'd expect Cameron to stay on for a bit for both reasons.

    Priti Patrl or some other Eurosceptic should publish a plan and take ownership of it. They'd immediately be seen as the right person to be put in charge in that scenario.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    The rest of the EU may yet give him that get out if they water it down further....
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    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    philiph said:

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.

    Which leaves Labour in a bit of an awkward spot.

    And the SNP screeching from the side-lines....
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    philiph said:

    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.


    No SNP? No UKIP?
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,477

    philiph said:

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.

    Which leaves Labour in a bit of an awkward spot.

    And the SNP screeching from the side-lines....
    The latter is hardly worth remarking. It would presumably be happening on all the days with D in the name.
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    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    The rest of the EU may yet give him that get out if they water it down further....
    I doubt it will be watered down any more. The UK will fight like hell to keep City out of single rule book. If they win we will be back to original memo. If they lose they won't aggrieve UK further.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710

    viewcode said:

    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
    That's a fair point.

    On the other hand, he screwed them up by focusing on the referendum when he should have been focusing on getting a good deal. With no referendum in the pipeline, that might not be the case.
    He would (to be fair on him) also have a team in place who could handle the logistics..although thinking about it that team (at least the Civil Service side of it) would survive his departure.

    But again I return to the competence point: is he *capable* of achieving the deal, given his failure to do so previously? Post a "LEAVE" vote the participants will be more aggressive, not less - that's already been wargamed - and you will need somebody who can handle 28 nations with the gloves off. I can't think of anybody with a track record of doing this.

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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    Mr Code, Cameron is quite capable of seeming to believe in two totally opposed positions simultaneously. That is why nobody trusts him. Not even his own backbenchers.
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    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT:

    viewcode said:

    Strictly speaking, a Russian attack against Turkey from Syria isn't covered by Article 5. From the NATO website:

    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.


    Asia Minor is not "in Europe or North America".

    In what may be the oddest intervention ever on this board, the Unfair Contracts Act does not permit contracts that can never be triggered.

    This would contradict your argument that (because Turkey is not in Europe nor North America) an attack on it isn't covered
    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

    I've already responded to this on the previous thread.
    The point is that if Turkey wants to play silly beggars and invites an attack from Russia in Syria due to what it's doing in Syria, then there is no legal obligation for other NATO members to come to its defence. It wouldn't be an abrogation of treaty duties but a judgement call. Worried Foreign Ministries would do well to quietly mention that to Turkish ambassadors.
    Can I call this the Blame-The-Victim meme? We've already seen this in the Ukraine ("It's the EU's fault Russia attacked the Ukraine. Naughty EU!"). Now you're suggesting we use it for Turkey ("It's Turkey's fault Russia attacked the Turkey. Naughty Turkey!").

    No, I'm suggesting that *if* Turkey enters Syria of its own accord and ends up in a conflict with Russia there, where Russia is acting as an ally of the legitimate government there, then that's no business of NATO. If it's acting as part of a UN- or NATO-sponsored mission, that's different. Similarly, if Russia launches an unprovoked attack on Turkey, of course NATO has to do something.

    I hold no brief for Putin but I'm damned if Erdogan's adventurism is going to drag Britain into a war with Russia.
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    philiph said:

    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.


    No SNP? No UKIP?
    The SNP can't exactly be trusted to negotiate in the best interests of the UK...!

    As for UKIP, they haven't exactly got many MPs to choose from.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100

    I am quite certain that, if there is a Leave result, then we will need a new PM to handle the extremely contentious negotiation on the exit terms. I cannot realistically see how Cameron, and others closely identified with the renegotiate-and-remain strategy, could realistically do that, or would want to.

    However, I'm not very convinced by this bet. The timescale looks too short too me. At the very earliest, the referendum will be at the end of June, so the bet has only just over 6 months at a maximum to run. If the result is Leave, the immediate effect will be political and economic pandemonium. No one has the faintest idea what kind of new arrangement the UK would or should try to put in place; it's not as though there is a ready-made Leave team with an agreed and coherent plan for an alternative arrangement ready to step in and try to implement it. The government's (and the Conservative Party's) immediate and overriding priorities would therefore have to be (a) to steady the ship, and (b) to begin the debate on what Leave might actually mean. I'd expect Cameron to stay on for a bit for both reasons.

    We have recently had the example of Miliband departing the stage immediately after being rebuffed by the voters - and we have seen the chaos that caused his party.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
    I don't think the coffee plants have changed much. The marketing has changed hugely. The people are very gullible. You pour gallons of milk and call it latte etc. does not make the coffee different.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    PClipp said:

    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    Mr Code, Cameron is quite capable of seeming to believe in two totally opposed positions simultaneously.
    Amazing he never joined the LibDems....
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710
    PClipp said:

    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    Mr Code, Cameron is quite capable of seeming to believe in two totally opposed positions simultaneously. That is why nobody trusts him. Not even his own backbenchers.
    Fair point. Although I can't help thinking "repeatedly fails insouciantly" is not a good obituary for a PM
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    edited February 2016

    PClipp said:

    viewcode said:

    There is of course a way that Camerron can secure his legacy. He can state that as a result of negotiations he realises no progress can be made and recommends Leave. The undecideds can rejoice, the Leavers can unite and we can all agree that the PM has acted in the best interest of the UK, putting aside his personal view.

    Unlikely? He'd be seen as a fair and magnanimous man.

    Given his previous statements I would find it difficult to believe he had reached such a conclusion objectively.
    Mr Code, Cameron is quite capable of seeming to believe in two totally opposed positions simultaneously.
    Amazing he never joined the LibDems....
    He did his best/worst, Mr Mark, the slimey bastard!

    Fortunately, a lot of Tories have now seen through him - including, I think, yourself.
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    philiph said:

    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.

    No. There'll be no cross-party delegation. The Chairman of the 1922 would have the letters by teatime if Cameron tried that.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,477
    edited February 2016
    Speedy said:

    How did I miss this:

    http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Ted-Cruz-campaign-defends-pastor-who-said-God-will-send-hunters-for-Jews-444644

    " Kansas evangelical Pastor Mike Bickle, whose endorsement the campaign publicized last month, runs a controversial project called "Israel Mandate." "

    " In a sermon in 2011, Bickle said God would give Jews a chance to convert to Christianity and “raise up the hunters” against those who refuse. Bickle called Hitler “the most famous hunter in recent history.” In 2005, Bickle said in a sermon that before Jesus’ coming, “a significant number of Jews will be in work camps, prison camps or death camps.”

    Nick Muzin, a senior adviser to the Texas senator’s campaign, said Bickle was referring to biblical passages. "

    This is not big news in america, yet.
    Though it probably will if Cruz gains altitude in the polls.

    I remember him as one of the so-called "Kansas City Prophets" back in about 1990-1991, which was part iirc of the somewhat out of balance "Toronto Blessing" movement.

    Alas, people who let them themselves be that dominated by particular bits of their religious visions need sidekicks who can impose a layer of insulation, translation, and a cold shower, on them.

    Or it all just looks whicky-whacky-doodah.

    Religious or Political Enthusiasm seems to need anchors.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited February 2016
    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.
    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Why are newspapers incapable of being created in that way? Imagine if a quality paper actually employed in its political section people who thought deeply on the subject, did factual research and wrote interestingly? Instead what we have in the lobby system is a series of half baked leaks shouting from set positions lacking the ability to inform us.

    Take as an example the junior doctor dispute. Where is a fair article on the issue of "safety" contrasting the official line with the BMA? Why cannot all "quality" papers produce such articles? Do they not know experts to speak to? Are they incapable of analysing the data? Another example is the whole issue of what the effects of better 7 day working would be on the death rate.... Time after time the BMA denounces it yet where is the analysis and "settled view"? Of course a professional well run Govt communications outfit should have killed off these issues months ago. But it now appears that Osborne also runs that!
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/redbox/topic/tory-policies/georges-marvellous-meddling
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710



    No, I'm suggesting that *if* Turkey enters Syria of its own accord and ends up in a conflict with Russia there, where Russia is acting as an ally of the legitimate government there, then that's no business of NATO. If it's acting as part of a UN- or NATO-sponsored mission, that's different. Similarly, if Russia launches an unprovoked attack on Turkey, of course NATO has to do something.

    I hold no brief for Putin but I'm damned if Erdogan's adventurism is going to drag Britain into a war with Russia.

    Oh, I see, thank you.

  • Options
    surbiton said:

    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
    I don't think the coffee plants have changed much. The marketing has changed hugely. The people are very gullible. You pour gallons of milk and call it latte etc. does not make the coffee different.
    The difference in quality of coffee available in the UK now and fifteen years ago is incredibly stark to any serious coffee drinker. The difference is as stark as the quality in Cadbury's chocolate before the Americans took over and today.
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
    That's a fair point.

    On the other hand, he screwed them up by focusing on the referendum when he should have been focusing on getting a good deal. With no referendum in the pipeline, that might not be the case.
    He would (to be fair on him) also have a team in place who could handle the logistics..although thinking about it that team (at least the Civil Service side of it) would survive his departure.

    But again I return to the competence point: is he *capable* of achieving the deal, given his failure to do so previously? Post a "LEAVE" vote the participants will be more aggressive, not less - that's already been wargamed - and you will need somebody who can handle 28 nations with the gloves off. I can't think of anybody with a track record of doing this.

    I don't think war game is a big reflection of reality. It was just pro-Europeans threatening loud noises to put people off Brexit. There will be aggressive voices but also people worried about maintaining good relations with major power and being lobbied by companies wanting to maintain access to UK market.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972

    philiph said:

    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.

    No. There'll be no cross-party delegation. The Chairman of the 1922 would have the letters by teatime if Cameron tried that.
    It’s not a cross-party negiating team that is being suggested, but another parliamentary committee. Presumably the negotiating team would be Senior Leaver led, plus a couple of ministers plus officials.

    Being Lead on Leaving would be a bit of a poisoned chalice, though; I can imagine shouts from all sides of "you shouldn’t have agreed to" this that or the other!
  • Options

    FPT:

    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

    The protocol to the treaty signed when Turkey joined NATO adds "the territory of Turkey" to artcile 5 so Anatolia is covered by the treaty.

    http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17245.htm
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
    That's a fair point.

    On the other hand, he screwed them up by focusing on the referendum when he should have been focusing on getting a good deal. With no referendum in the pipeline, that might not be the case.
    He would (to be fair on him) also have a team in place who could handle the logistics..although thinking about it that team (at least the Civil Service side of it) would survive his departure.

    But again I return to the competence point: is he *capable* of achieving the deal, given his failure to do so previously? Post a "LEAVE" vote the participants will be more aggressive, not less - that's already been wargamed - and you will need somebody who can handle 28 nations with the gloves off. I can't think of anybody with a track record of doing this.

    I don't think war game is a big reflection of reality. It was just pro-Europeans threatening loud noises to put people off Brexit. There will be aggressive voices but also people worried about maintaining good relations with major power and being lobbied by companies wanting to maintain access to UK market.
    Given that the two people representing the UK in the wargame were Malcolm Rifkind and Norman Lamont, I can't help thinking that this stretches the definition of "pro-Europe" past breaking point.

    However, instead of you and me arguing about the characteristics of the wargame participants, I'll just put this list of the participants here and let people make up their own mind
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,002

    philiph said:

    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.

    No. There'll be no cross-party delegation. The Chairman of the 1922 would have the letters by teatime if Cameron tried that.
    It’s not a cross-party negiating team that is being suggested, but another parliamentary committee. Presumably the negotiating team would be Senior Leaver led, plus a couple of ministers plus officials.

    Being Lead on Leaving would be a bit of a poisoned chalice, though; I can imagine shouts from all sides of "you shouldn’t have agreed to" this that or the other!
    Such an individual should study carefully the sainted example of Michael Collins.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
    Most of the cost is actually the location and staff. Imagine a "shop" that pays rates, staff, bills etc. But does nothing. How much would they have to charge for you to sit there and do nothing for 10 minutes to stay in business?

    The coffee is a minor incidental....
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT:

    viewcode said:

    Strictly speaking, a Russian attack against Turkey from Syria isn't covered by Article 5. From the NATO website:



    Asia Minor is not "in Europe or North America".

    I
    Istanbul is in Europe. Turkey across the Bosphorus isn't. They must have known this when they signed.

    I've already responded to this on the previous thread.
    Can I call this the Blame-The-Victim meme? We've already seen this in the Ukraine ("It's the EU's fault Russia attacked the Ukraine. Naughty EU!"). Now you're suggesting we use it for Turkey ("It's Turkey's fault Russia attacked the Turkey. Naughty Turkey!").

    No, I'm suggesting that *if* Turkey enters Syria of its own accord and ends up in a conflict with Russia there, where Russia is acting as an ally of the legitimate government there, then that's no business of NATO. If it's acting as part of a UN- or NATO-sponsored mission, that's different. Similarly, if Russia launches an unprovoked attack on Turkey, of course NATO has to do something.

    I hold no brief for Putin but I'm damned if Erdogan's adventurism is going to drag Britain into a war with Russia.
    Lets calm down a bit.
    NATO articles are explicit in their geographical coverage and the meaning of collective defence, but wide open when it comes to a response.

    If Turkey invades Syria it won't be covered by NATO because of:

    a. Turkey is the aggressor.
    b. Syria is not in Europe.

    Basically it is the same situation as to why NATO felt no obligation to assist the USA in invading and occupying Iraq.

    So any military assistance to Turkey will only be as part of bilateral agreements, however if Turkey invades Syria it will enter a direct military conflict with Russia, Iran and the Kurds.
    Iraq won't be happy either after Turkey's attempt to occupy it's northern part a few months ago.
    You will have a number of powerful regional actors all allying to actively counter any turkish move, some of them being western allies themselves.

    So there will be huge reservations to give any sort of aid to Turkey, which isn't the most trustworthy ally anyway with their support for all kinds of islamic terrorist movements, and Erdogan's reputation is pretty bad in the west.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,854
    viewcode said:



    No, I'm suggesting that *if* Turkey enters Syria of its own accord and ends up in a conflict with Russia there, where Russia is acting as an ally of the legitimate government there, then that's no business of NATO. If it's acting as part of a UN- or NATO-sponsored mission, that's different. Similarly, if Russia launches an unprovoked attack on Turkey, of course NATO has to do something.

    I hold no brief for Putin but I'm damned if Erdogan's adventurism is going to drag Britain into a war with Russia.

    Oh, I see, thank you.

    What a laugh that anyone could be stupid enough to think that we would go up against Russia, we could not beat a handful of tribesmen with tea towels round their heads.
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    malcolmg said:

    viewcode said:



    No, I'm suggesting that *if* Turkey enters Syria of its own accord and ends up in a conflict with Russia there, where Russia is acting as an ally of the legitimate government there, then that's no business of NATO. If it's acting as part of a UN- or NATO-sponsored mission, that's different. Similarly, if Russia launches an unprovoked attack on Turkey, of course NATO has to do something.

    I hold no brief for Putin but I'm damned if Erdogan's adventurism is going to drag Britain into a war with Russia.

    Oh, I see, thank you.

    What a laugh that anyone could be stupid enough to think that we would go up against Russia, we could not beat a handful of tribesmen with tea towels round their heads.
    Neither could the Russians in Afghanistan.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972
    EPG said:

    philiph said:

    If the referendum is a leave result do you think Cameron would make a bold open and inclusive offer?

    Negotiations to be headed by prominent Leaver with a parliamentary committee to oversee the negotiations - 5 tory, 3 or 4 labour and 1 Libdem - to be appointed by secret ballot of the respective parliamentary parties.

    And thus defuse his own immediate problems, ie his tenure of the premiership.

    Also if we vote leave the negotiations should have cross party input and support.

    No. There'll be no cross-party delegation. The Chairman of the 1922 would have the letters by teatime if Cameron tried that.
    It’s not a cross-party negiating team that is being suggested, but another parliamentary committee. Presumably the negotiating team would be Senior Leaver led, plus a couple of ministers plus officials.

    Being Lead on Leaving would be a bit of a poisoned chalice, though; I can imagine shouts from all sides of "you shouldn’t have agreed to" this that or the other!
    Such an individual should study carefully the sainted example of Michael Collins.
    I don’t think he or she would actually get shot, but you never know!
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    If you read The Undercover Economist take on coffee shop, you will find that the cost is all to do with location, location, location...
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
    Here in southern Spain we pay £1.10 for superb coffee and get water, Orange juice and doughnuts thrown in to wash it down.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    I am quite certain that, if there is a Leave result, then we will need a new PM to handle the extremely contentious negotiation on the exit terms. I cannot realistically see how Cameron, and others closely identified with the renegotiate-and-remain strategy, could realistically do that, or would want to.

    However, I'm not very convinced by this bet. The timescale looks too short too me. At the very earliest, the referendum will be at the end of June, so the bet has only just over 6 months at a maximum to run. If the result is Leave, the immediate effect will be political and economic pandemonium. No one has the faintest idea what kind of new arrangement the UK would or should try to put in place; it's not as though there is a ready-made Leave team with an agreed and coherent plan for an alternative arrangement ready to step in and try to implement it. The government's (and the Conservative Party's) immediate and overriding priorities would therefore have to be (a) to steady the ship, and (b) to begin the debate on what Leave might actually mean. I'd expect Cameron to stay on for a bit for both reasons.

    Could always take the "this year" and "next year" bets together.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,854
    felix said:

    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
    Here in southern Spain we pay £1.10 for superb coffee and get water, Orange juice and doughnuts thrown in to wash it down.
    No Tories in Spain though
  • Options
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
    That's a fair point.

    On the other hand, he screwed them up by focusing on the referendum when he should have been focusing on getting a good deal. With no referendum in the pipeline, that might not be the case.
    He would (to be fair on him) also have a team in place who could handle the logistics..although thinking about it that team (at least the Civil Service side of it) would survive his departure.

    But again I return to the competence point: is he *capable* of achieving the deal, given his failure to do so previously? Post a "LEAVE" vote the participants will be more aggressive, not less - that's already been wargamed - and you will need somebody who can handle 28 nations with the gloves off. I can't think of anybody with a track record of doing this.

    I don't think war game is a big reflection of reality. It was just pro-Europeans threatening loud noises to put people off Brexit. There will be aggressive voices but also people worried about maintaining good relations with major power and being lobbied by companies wanting to maintain access to UK market.
    Given that the two people representing the UK in the wargame were Malcolm Rifkind and Norman Lamont, I can't help thinking that this stretches the definition of "pro-Europe" past breaking point.

    However, instead of you and me arguing about the characteristics of the wargame participants, I'll just put this list of the participants here and let people make up their own mind
    I'm talking about the representatives of the EU side, obviously. Although Rifkind is a very aggressive Remain supporter for what its worth.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    notme said:

    A culture in which people are more willing to pay for overpriced coffee than a newspaper ensured the downfall of the Independent papers after three decades in print, a senior executive has said.

    “We have always found it terribly depressing that people will happily pay £3.70 for an appalling coffee from a takeout place and yet they won’t pay £1.60 or £2.20 on a Sunday for what is in effect a novel’s worth of terrific writing,” Markwell told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Saturday.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/13/independent-staff-culture-people-coffee-newspapers

    Obviously people value one over the other. Or rather again they are missing the point entirely about why the Indy failed (and other titles will do to), while the hated Mail is a success.

    What is fascinating about the example is how coffee has been marketed in a way which has increased its value. Its three pennies of beans, and thats the good stuff.

    For years people have gone to teashops and coffee shops, the cost was substantially less, even account for inflation. It would be the equivalent of 50p maybe 60p, I dont know if it is places like Starbucks that are to blame, who have managed to bump up the price, making drinking coffee an experience.
    Back in the day you'd get crap coffee. Now you can get good coffee. The price has gone up as product is superior.
    Here in southern Spain we pay £1.10 for superb coffee and get water, Orange juice and doughnuts thrown in to wash it down.
    No Tories in Spain though
    Lots and lots Malc - you'd hate it.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    PC mob will be unhappy - Welsh crowd in good voice with Delilah....
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    malcolmg said:

    viewcode said:



    No, I'm suggesting that *if* Turkey enters Syria of its own accord and ends up in a conflict with Russia there, where Russia is acting as an ally of the legitimate government there, then that's no business of NATO. If it's acting as part of a UN- or NATO-sponsored mission, that's different. Similarly, if Russia launches an unprovoked attack on Turkey, of course NATO has to do something.

    I hold no brief for Putin but I'm damned if Erdogan's adventurism is going to drag Britain into a war with Russia.

    Oh, I see, thank you.

    What a laugh that anyone could be stupid enough to think that we would go up against Russia, we could not beat a handful of tribesmen with tea towels round their heads.
    Neither could the Soviet Union....
  • Options

    PC mob will be unhappy - Welsh crowd in good voice with Delilah....

    Welsh Labour and Plaid against it. Lib dems do not like it but dont want it banned. Is this going to set the scene for the Welsh Assembly elections?
  • Options

    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    I agree. Also, "out" represents a huge potentially range of different options, with something potentially very disruptive at one end and basically a rebranding of the current arrangement at the other. Would he really want to hand the power to decide over to his opponents?
    Nothing that LEAVE are suggesting in any way compares with a rebranding of the current arrangements.

    In excess of 70% of the current EU legislation would no longer apply to us even if we joined the EEA. We would actually get what we always wanted and have never had which was a free market trading relationship.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954

    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    I agree. Also, "out" represents a huge potentially range of different options, with something potentially very disruptive at one end and basically a rebranding of the current arrangement at the other. Would he really want to hand the power to decide over to his opponents?
    Nothing that LEAVE are suggesting in any way compares with a rebranding of the current arrangements.

    In excess of 70% of the current EU legislation would no longer apply to us even if we joined the EEA. We would actually get what we always wanted and have never had which was a free market trading relationship.
    Here's the issue, though. There is a lot of the business and finance community - perhaps the majority - who would rather have EEA than EU. But they'd rather have EU than 'completely out'. They worry, understandably enough, that Leave might mean 'Completely Out'.

    By not making it clear that the preference - one shared by you, me, Sean_F and a number of other people - is for EEA, then you run the risk that these people will choose, reluctantly and without enthusiasm, the EU over the unknown.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2016
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Speedy said:

    ...he can use the excuse of the 2 year Brexit negotiation period to stay during those 2 years...

    You mean after f***ing up the renegotiations twice, he'd be the best person to do it a third time?
    That's a fair point.

    On the other hand, he screwed them up by focusing on the referendum when he should have been focusing on getting a good deal. With no referendum in the pipeline, that might not be the case.


    But again I return to the competence point: is he *capable* of achieving the deal, given his failure to do so previously? Post a "LEAVE" vote the participants will be more aggressive, not less - that's already been wargamed - and you will need somebody who can handle 28 nations with the gloves off. I can't think of anybody with a track record of doing this.

    I don't think war game is a big reflection of reality. It was just pro-Europeans threatening loud noises to put people off Brexit. There will be aggressive voices but also people worried about maintaining good relations with major power and being lobbied by companies wanting to maintain access to UK market.
    Given that the two people representing the UK in the wargame were Malcolm Rifkind and Norman Lamont, I can't help thinking that this stretches the definition of "pro-Europe" past breaking point.

    However, instead of you and me arguing about the characteristics of the wargame participants, I'll just put this list of the participants here and let people make up their own mind
    Looking at the video, Norman Lamont's strategy seems to bore and confuse to death the EU negotiators.
    A free trade deal seems easy, the rest will be very difficult to achieve.

    First move the europeans will dream that their capital will become the new financial capital of the world and will try to break scotland off, and moaning that their democratic mandate is superior to the democratic mandate of Britain basically they play Britain like they played Greece, which is a mistake as Britain is not Greece as they find out later in the video.
    The most absurd part is Ireland threatening war on Britain, they really look like they are in the most desperate position in case of Brexit and Lamont squeezes them.

    Scotland is Britain's weak spot and Ireland the EU's weak spot.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited February 2016
    SC HOUSE GOP

    Trump 35
    Cruz 16
    Rubio 13
    Bush 13
    Kasich 9
    Carson 5

    SC Presidential Primary Survey
    Conducted 2/11-2/12
    1200+ Respondents
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Here's the issue, though. There is a lot of the business and finance community - perhaps the majority - who would rather have EEA than EU. But they'd rather have EU than 'completely out'. They worry, understandably enough, that Leave might mean 'Completely Out'.

    By not making it clear that the preference - one shared by you, me, Sean_F and a number of other people - is for EEA, then you run the risk that these people will choose, reluctantly and without enthusiasm, the EU over the unknown.

    Conversely, a lot of those who are most keen to vote Leave are primarily motivated by concerns about immigration. I can't imagine they will be entirely chuffed when someone tells them 'Sorry Sunshine, we may be leaving the EU, but we're not changing anything that you care about.'.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    SC HOUSE GOP

    Trump 35
    Cruz 16
    Rubio 13
    Bush 13
    Kasich 9
    Carson 5

    SC Presidential Primary Survey
    Conducted 2/11-2/12
    1200+ Respondents

    I've seen their poll.
    I have never seen them commissioning a poll before.
    It also is very heavy on pensioners, they have them as a majority when in fact in the 2012 primary they where only 27%, their poll is not demographically weighted, though it only affects the Bush-Rubio numbers.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Former Virginia Governor Jim Gilmore has suspended his campaign for the GOP nomination (if you were aware he was still running in the first place)


    “My campaign was intended to offer the gubernatorial experience, with the track record of a true conservative, experienced in national security, to unite the party.” Gilmore said, “My goal was to focus on the importance of this election as a real turning point, and to emphasize the dangers of continuing on a road that will further undermine America’s economy and weaken our national security.”
    “Nonetheless, I will continue to express my concerns about the dangers of electing someone who has pledged to continue Obama’s disastrous policies,” Gilmore said. “And, I will continue to do everything I can to ensure that our next president is a free-enterprise Republican who will restore our nation to greatness and keep our citizens safe.”
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2583169/
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    rcs1000 said:

    Given he says he is going to go before the next GE, I think it is a realistic possibility that even with a defeat, he says something like I will go as I said I would before the last GE, but we need a steady calm transition and he drags it out for another year or so.

    Quite right. I can't see Dave falling on his sword even if Remain lost. He's always struck me as a pragmatic Euro-neutral rather than spiritual Euro-phile, and won't have made the great personal investment in remaining that many assume. If Leave triumphs we'll get, 'With this momentous decision comes great opportunities. Let's forge our new place in the world.' Dave certainly would beat himself up over it.
    I agree. Also, "out" represents a huge potentially range of different options, with something potentially very disruptive at one end and basically a rebranding of the current arrangement at the other. Would he really want to hand the power to decide over to his opponents?
    Nothing that LEAVE are suggesting in any way compares with a rebranding of the current arrangements.

    In excess of 70% of the current EU legislation would no longer apply to us even if we joined the EEA. We would actually get what we always wanted and have never had which was a free market trading relationship.
    Here's the issue, though. There is a lot of the business and finance community - perhaps the majority - who would rather have EEA than EU. But they'd rather have EU than 'completely out'. They worry, understandably enough, that Leave might mean 'Completely Out'.

    By not making it clear that the preference - one shared by you, me, Sean_F and a number of other people - is for EEA, then you run the risk that these people will choose, reluctantly and without enthusiasm, the EU over the unknown.
    Indeed and I agree with you entirely on that. Hence the reason that I have always been absolutely clear that is the way we should go as have many other Eurosceptics. It is the preferred choice of Vote.Leave and really the only organisation that is arguing against it is UKIP and their affiliates.

    What I was making clear to Edmund is his claim that EEA membership was just a rebranding of EU membership is farcically wrong.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Be clear about Russia, it is strategically weak. It is simply not being challenged. Medvedev stated the obvious that too many people in the West want to bury their head in the sand about. Russia is a strategic opponent and we are certainly in what can be described as a cold-war like scenario.

    Saudi aircraft have turned up at a Turkish airbase. If the numbers are correct, its a notable sum of some very powerful kit designed to play in contested airspace.

    Perhaps more notable is the Turkish shelling of YPG positions near Aleppo today. This has been fully expected, the Russians put up near half their fighting jet air power in-country up on the Northern Syria border as a deterrent today (there is probably some kind of contribution from Assads' airforce in there) . That, by the way, is about 20 aircraft. The Turks playing a bit of an asymmetric game. What is Russia going to do, bomb Turkish artillery sitting in Turkey? Tricky.

    In the unlikely event of a proper punch up between Turkey & Russia, Turkey has a number of advantages that many seem to have missed. It wouldn't be a forgone conclusion. Not least Russia couldn't ultimately halt any concerted large formation incursion by Turkish forces into Syria. Nor could the 30k or of Assad's army left, and the various militias which now outstrip his regular army.

    Have the Turks and Saudis the cojones? Possibly more than probably
This discussion has been closed.