Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Back at Westminster the wait continues

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited February 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Back at Westminster the wait continues

politicalbetting.com is proudly powered by WordPress
with "Neat!" theme. Entries (RSS) and Comments (RSS).

Read the full story here


«13456789

Comments

  • Options
    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    I did advise Gove at 28-1 in the next Tory leader market.He must be taken at double-figure odds now he is leading Leave.It puts him in pole position with the selectorate and good media links help.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Schedule of one typical EU crisis summit, no point at guessing which of them, they all look the same:

    THURSDAY
    4.10pm The Prime Minister, fresh from seeing his son Elwen starring as a mouse in his school’s nativity play, departs from RAF Northolt in a small aircraft with his closest aides. The party experiences a bumpy landing in Brussels owing to turbulence – a foreshadowing of torrid talks to come.
    6.40pm Cameron arrives at the EU Council’s Justus Lipsius building, where the summit is to be held.
    7.25pm The PM meets France’s Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany’s Angela Merkel for 45 minutes of pre-summit talks. He is joined by William Hague, key European adviser Jon Cunliffe and chief of staff Ed Llewellyn. Aides emerge with faces like thunder, saying Sarkozy is refusing to acknowledge that Britain has any right to ask for concessions in a new fiscal union treaty.
    8.10pm EU leaders sit down for a dinner of soup, cod, chocolate cake and ice cream. Each of the 27 speaks in turn. According to some sources, Sarkozy becomes so animated that at one point he has to be physically restrained. After dinner, the summit resumes.
    FRIDAY
    2.30am Cameron makes his main contribution to the discussion, insisting the protections Britain has requested for the City of London and the single market are ‘perfectly reasonable’. The PM later says ‘everyone else in the room’ was telling him ‘give up your national interests, and go along with what everyone wants’. At this point Cameron, reportedly banging the table, formally declares he cannot support the new EU-wide treaty.
    3.30am Summit breaks as EU leaders consider what to do next.
    4.48am Talks end with British veto of fiscal union plan.
    5.08am Sarkozy gives press conference to announce regret at ‘unacceptable demands’ from Cameron.
    6.19am Cameron tells press conference what was on offer from other EU leaders ‘was not in Britain’s interests, so I didn’t agree to it’.
    6.50am Cameron finally goes to bed at British Embassy.
    8.15am He orders a full English breakfast.

  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,006
    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly
  • Options
    The best thing about Gove coming out for Brexit is that it will allow the party to heal post referendum.

    He won't use it to try and topple Dave or undo the Cameroon project.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2016
    FPT:

    "Pro-EU Tory activists hail Cameron's deal... before it's done

    The letter says "we fully support the deal the PM has negotiated which helps the UK secure a unique status in a reformed Europe" and suggests that the group has made its decision to back him already before the deal is done."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35615548
  • Options

    I did advise Gove at 28-1 in the next Tory leader market.He must be taken at double-figure odds now he is leading Leave.It puts him in pole position with the selectorate and good media links help.

    'Leading' is pushing it. 'Backing' would be more accurate. The journos looking for something to report while they all hung around Brussels were saying that Gove didn't plan to take a high-profile part in the campaign.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Odds on England tumbling below 5. 44 from 30 needed.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    Gove has one of the lowest popularity / satisfaction ratings of any leading politician in any party. So it doesn't seem very likely he is going to gain many votes for Leave.

    Gove is just about the worst person who could become Con leader if Con want to win the next GE - only Fox would be even worse.

    Boris is the only person who could swing substantial votes behind Leave - and he would be an absolutely massive game-changer.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Idea for Leave PPB:

    Noel Edmonds. So, Dave, £30m of benefits against £11bn in membership.

    Deal, or no deal?
  • Options

    I did advise Gove at 28-1 in the next Tory leader market.He must be taken at double-figure odds now he is leading Leave.It puts him in pole position with the selectorate and good media links help.

    'Leading' is pushing it. 'Backing' would be more accurate. The journos looking for something to report while they all hung around Brussels were saying that Gove didn't plan to take a high-profile part in the campaign.
    Ah, is Osborne's hand behind this? It usually is..

    He does a very low-profile role in the campaign (virtually nothing) and then endorses Osborne after to "heal the party". And help Osborne sew it up, natch.

    Or.. is that just what he's told Osborne and, loyalty notwithstanding, he seriously will campaign for Leave as the Right Thing To Do, with Boris or anyone else if necessary.

    Don't know.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Still think SA have this but it is getting more interesting.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    His ratings of minus 29 are the same as the IRA loving give the Falklands to the Argies Corbyn.

    I love Gove but I realise he isn't an election winner.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    DavidL said:

    Still think SA have this but it is getting more interesting.

    Agree. It will be a close finish but the batsmen should do it with six wickets in hand.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    Presumably amongst YouGov panel members?

    Amongst the actual public, especially the Tory voting public, he is popular.

    He has also been a fantastic Justice secretary.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    When I ask teachers I know why they hate Gove the answer is usually something along the lines of because the NUT told them he was a horrible person. God help the children taught by these people.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,006
    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    They think he is so great that he was moved on from his brief, despite his policies seeming good and probably being good (maybe too soon to tell)
    That tells me that regardless of his two brains, he is too quick to make enemies to be a good PM or PM-candidate
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    This might be true. But his value is in winning over moderates within the Conservative Party itself who greatly respect him.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    MP_SE said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    When I ask teachers I know why they hate Gove the answer is usually something along the lines of because the NUT told them he was a horrible person. God help the children taught by these people.
    Quite. It startles me how many of my old school pals who were at best mediocre at certain subjects at school are now teaching them.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    I adore Pride and Prejudice.

    But I have to confess I've never heard of most of the other authors people have mentioned and have never read Pratchett.

    "A Prayer for Owen Meany" by John Irving is also good.

    The 3 novels by JG Farrell: Troubles, The Siege of Krishnapur and The Hill Station are worth seeking out.

    Perhaps we should now list those writers we think are overrated.

    - Martin Amis
    - Salman Rushdie
    - Howard Jacobson - other than his first novel "Coming from Behind"(which made me laugh out loud on the tube) and his essays.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Mortimer said:

    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    Presumably amongst YouGov panel members?

    Amongst the actual public, especially the Tory voting public, he is popular.

    He has also been a fantastic Justice secretary.
    And before that he was a fantastic Education Secretary - to the point that the Blob thought they had won even though the reforms all went through!
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Mortimer said:

    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    Presumably amongst YouGov panel members?

    Amongst the actual public, especially the Tory voting public, he is popular.

    He has also been a fantastic Justice secretary.
    He has been sane. Massive improvement. Massive.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Still think SA have this but it is getting more interesting.

    Still think the EU have this but it is getting more interesting.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    England are going to bloody win this!!
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Gove popping up in James Delingpole's garden is quite amusing. Not often you see a politician with a sense of humour.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnXoQeGnT4Q
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2016
    A Clemson S.C poll of frequent past republican primary voters, doesn't include new voters:

    Trump 28
    Cruz 19
    Rubio 15
    Bush 10
    Kasich 9
    Carson 6

    http://newsstand.clemson.edu/mediarelations/palmetto-poll-frequent-voters-in-south-carolina-favor-trump/

    Assuming most new voters will vote just for Trump, it seems an easy victory for him, just like what all the other polls say.

    We can make an estimation of his margin of victory based on turnout, low turnout means Trump wins by around 10, very high turnout and he might win by 20.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    England are going to bloody win this!!

    The cricket, or the EU referendum?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    DavidL said:

    Still think SA have this but it is getting more interesting.

    Still think the EU have this but it is getting more interesting.
    LOL
  • Options

    The best thing about Gove coming out for Brexit is that it will allow the party to heal post referendum.

    He won't use it to try and topple Dave or undo the Cameroon project.

    You almost make it sound as though Cameron wants Gove to be doing this...

    I'm not worried about whether particular political parties can heal post referendum though. I'm more concerned as to whether the country as a whole can heal post referendum (whichever way it goes). Gove will probably have that in mind too.





  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Sandpit said:

    England are going to bloody win this!!

    You jinxed it :)
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    :( not :)
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    England are going to bloody win this!!

    Moeen with an over of two halves.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Delighted about Gove. If the country has the temerity to vote Remain after that, hopefully the party will make him leader.

    That'll teach them.
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Miller gone - maybe not!
  • Options

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    His ratings of minus 29 are the same as the IRA loving give the Falklands to the Argies Corbyn.

    I love Gove but I realise he isn't an election winner.
    There is that, but he's very articulate and he was (and is) regularly put up on TV as an articulate proponent of the Government's case.

    Two other things:

    (1) He is a radical game-changing reformer - whether it's education or justice, he makes waves and changes, and for the best of motives
    (2) There's something about his back story, journey and vision that I think could potentially be unleashed

    If (and it's a big if) he could find a way to connect, he could be an inspiring leader. And Thatcher came back from an awful time as Education Secretary.

    So I don't rule him out yet.
  • Options
    Ive always liked Michael Gove... A very talented individual
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I adore Pride and Prejudice.

    But I have to confess I've never heard of most of the other authors people have mentioned and have never read Pratchett.

    "A Prayer for Owen Meany" by John Irving is also good.

    The 3 novels by JG Farrell: Troubles, The Siege of Krishnapur and The Hill Station are worth seeking out.

    Perhaps we should now list those writers we think are overrated.

    - Martin Amis
    - Salman Rushdie
    - Howard Jacobson - other than his first novel "Coming from Behind"(which made me laugh out loud on the tube) and his essays.

    Dickens. Sorry. Turgid stuff.
    Jonathan Franzen. Boring.
    Zadie Smith. Boring and jejune.
    Virginia Woolf. A failed James Joyce
    Saul Bellow? I've never read him because I can't get beyond the first paragraph.
    The late works of Philip Roth. Boring.


    I like Martin Amis. He can be laugh out loud funny, a very rare talent in a writer.


    Agree on Dickens, Woolf. Haven't tried the others.

    I liked Graham Greene when younger but haven't read him in years. I wonder what I'd make of him now.



  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Interesting. I wonder who the surprise guest could be.

    https://twitter.com/Grassroots_Out/status/700589002894671873
  • Options

    The best thing about Gove coming out for Brexit is that it will allow the party to heal post referendum.

    He won't use it to try and topple Dave or undo the Cameroon project.

    You almost make it sound as though Cameron wants Gove to be doing this...

    I'm not worried about whether particular political parties can heal post referendum though. I'm more concerned as to whether the country as a whole can heal post referendum (whichever way it goes). Gove will probably have that in mind too.


    There's some in the Tory party that have never forgiven Dave for winning a majority with his centrist one nation way.

    Some of those people will try and use the referendum to try and undo that, Gove isn't in that number.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Or is Gove just giving his mate Dave ammunition and bargaining power in his negotiations?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    Ive always liked Michael Gove... A very talented individual

    But he is probably even more Marmite than Farage.....
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    Mortimer said:

    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    Presumably amongst YouGov panel members?

    Amongst the actual public, especially the Tory voting public, he is popular.

    He has also been a fantastic Justice secretary.
    I like him myself but in my experience he inspires intense dislike in a lot of people (not just automatic anti-Tories). He'd be a disaster electorally.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Another great map

    Love this map of city populations over their equivalent London population https://t.co/F2wg6u7Vb6
  • Options
    MP_SE said:

    Gove popping up in James Delingpole's garden is quite amusing. Not often you see a politician with a sense of humour.

    h

    Ha, I enjoyed that. That's quite funny.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MP_SE said:

    Interesting. I wonder who the surprise guest could be.

    https://twitter.com/Grassroots_Out/status/700589002894671873

    Looking at the enthusiasm among Tories on PB for Gove, I'll guess Gove.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sandpit said:

    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.

    Thanks, it's going to come down to the last few balls I think.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sam Coates
    At Grassroots Out rally at QE2 rally. Packed. Who is the special guest? https://t.co/QyvQGj2T3M

    1500
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Oh yes.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited February 2016
    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.

    Thanks, it's going to come down to the last few balls I think.
    Betfair has crossed over now! SA from 1.9 to 4.8 in a minute!
  • Options

    The best thing about Gove coming out for Brexit is that it will allow the party to heal post referendum.

    He won't use it to try and topple Dave or undo the Cameroon project.

    You almost make it sound as though Cameron wants Gove to be doing this...

    I'm not worried about whether particular political parties can heal post referendum though. I'm more concerned as to whether the country as a whole can heal post referendum (whichever way it goes). Gove will probably have that in mind too.


    There's some in the Tory party that have never forgiven Dave for winning a majority with his centrist one nation way.

    Some of those people will try and use the referendum to try and undo that, Gove isn't in that number.
    You really really need to stop thinking like this.

    That's a small minority.

    It's not what I think, or Marquee Mark or countless others.

    Your dislike of that cohort is influencing you, I think.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    Presumably amongst YouGov panel members?

    Amongst the actual public, especially the Tory voting public, he is popular.

    He has also been a fantastic Justice secretary.
    I think it's a little early to come to that conclusion but he is making all the right noises. I'll call him a fantastic Justice Secretary once he's translated those noises into policies, implemented and embedded them.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.

    Thanks, it's going to come down to the last few balls I think.
    So much for the "SA win with 4 overs to spare" someone had up thread.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Another great map

    Love this map of city populations over their equivalent London population https://t.co/F2wg6u7Vb6

    Interesting but it's a bit unfair because the Greater London boundary is very widely drawn whereas Manchester for example doesn't even include Salford which is a five minute walk from the city centre.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Cammo should have done the deal. He has missed out.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    edited February 2016

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    His ratings of minus 29 are the same as the IRA loving give the Falklands to the Argies Corbyn.

    I love Gove but I realise he isn't an election winner.
    There is that, but he's very articulate and he was (and is) regularly put up on TV as an articulate proponent of the Government's case.

    Two other things:

    (1) He is a radical game-changing reformer - whether it's education or justice, he makes waves and changes, and for the best of motives
    (2) There's something about his back story, journey and vision that I think could potentially be unleashed

    If (and it's a big if) he could find a way to connect, he could be an inspiring leader. And Thatcher came back from an awful time as Education Secretary.

    So I don't rule him out yet.
    He's managed to earn the praise of Frances Cook, something I thought no Justice Secretary could achieve. He's a great thinker, I'll never forget his performance at Leveson.

    What he would give Leave is some real intellectual heft.

    Some leavers (not you) come accross as a bunch of angry white men obsessed about immigration and Muslims that puts off a lot of voters.

    He will make the elegant and intellectual case on the grounds of sovereignty etc that will appeal to the voters needed to win it for Leave.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.

    Thanks, it's going to come down to the last few balls I think.
    So much for the "SA win with 4 overs to spare" someone had up thread.
    Yeah that was me! I wasn't the only one who thought it would have finished a long time ago.
    15 from the last over.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited February 2016
    If Gove does come out, so to speak, it will be yet another episode in his honourable career of trying not to be a janus-type politician.

    I doubt it will do him any good and as has been much rehearsed, he ain't going to be PM any time soon but dear god we need politicians like him.

    Perhaps the PM, through gritted teeth, or perhaps HMQ herself could reach into the tightly locked box of hereditary peerages and make him a viscount or something. Just to go to the Lords as a life peer Lord Gove of Integrity would seem woefully inadequate.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Has no one told Dave that the 20:20 starts in half an hour? Get a grip man and pay attention to the important things in life.

    Wasn't that posted at just about the time the leaders broke up for the afternoon? Dave probably had time to catch the whole thing. Good job it was a T20 and not a test match.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    C4 News: Downing Street "really worried". Could be 100 Tory MPs backing LEAVE.

    I think about 110-120 myself.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Two full tosses?????
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.

    Thanks, it's going to come down to the last few balls I think.
    So much for the "SA win with 4 overs to spare" someone had up thread.
    Yeah that was me! I wasn't the only one who thought it would have finished a long time ago.
    15 from the last over.
    Sandpit the double jinxer :(
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT said:

    C4 News: Downing Street "really worried". Could be 100 Tory MPs backing LEAVE.

    Amazing complacency from Cameron. What happens when you've been in position for more than 10 years without much opposition, same as Merkel.
  • Options
    Reece Topley the new Jade Dernbach
  • Options
    pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    Speedy said:

    Schedule of one typical EU crisis summit, no point at guessing which of them, they all look the same:

    THURSDAY
    4.10pm The Prime Minister, fresh from seeing his son Elwen starring as a mouse in his school’s nativity play, departs from RAF Northolt in a small aircraft with his closest aides. The party experiences a bumpy landing in Brussels owing to turbulence – a foreshadowing of torrid talks to come.
    6.40pm Cameron arrives at the EU Council’s Justus Lipsius building, where the summit is to be held.
    7.25pm The PM meets France’s Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany’s Angela Merkel for 45 minutes of pre-summit talks. He is joined by William Hague, key European adviser Jon Cunliffe and chief of staff Ed Llewellyn. Aides emerge with faces like thunder, saying Sarkozy is refusing to acknowledge that Britain has any right to ask for concessions in a new fiscal union treaty.
    8.10pm EU leaders sit down for a dinner of soup, cod, chocolate cake and ice cream. Each of the 27 speaks in turn. According to some sources, Sarkozy becomes so animated that at one point he has to be physically restrained. After dinner, the summit resumes.
    FRIDAY
    2.30am Cameron makes his main contribution to the discussion, insisting the protections Britain has requested for the City of London and the single market are ‘perfectly reasonable’. The PM later says ‘everyone else in the room’ was telling him ‘give up your national interests, and go along with what everyone wants’. At this point Cameron, reportedly banging the table, formally declares he cannot support the new EU-wide treaty.
    3.30am Summit breaks as EU leaders consider what to do next.
    4.48am Talks end with British veto of fiscal union plan.
    5.08am Sarkozy gives press conference to announce regret at ‘unacceptable demands’ from Cameron.
    6.19am Cameron tells press conference what was on offer from other EU leaders ‘was not in Britain’s interests, so I didn’t agree to it’.
    6.50am Cameron finally goes to bed at British Embassy.
    8.15am He orders a full English breakfast.

    I've forgotten what it was he "vetoed" now. What was it?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    hunchman said:

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good luck to @AndyJS for the next five minutes. England are now in with a real shout for his 12/1.
    21 from the last two overs.

    Thanks, it's going to come down to the last few balls I think.
    So much for the "SA win with 4 overs to spare" someone had up thread.
    Yeah that was me! I wasn't the only one who thought it would have finished a long time ago.
    15 from the last over.
    Sandpit the double jinxer :(
    :'(
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I adore Pride and Prejudice.

    But I have to confess I've never heard of most of the other authors people have mentioned and have never read Pratchett.

    "A Prayer for Owen Meany" by John Irving is also good.

    The 3 novels by JG Farrell: Troubles, The Siege of Krishnapur and The Hill Station are worth seeking out.

    Perhaps we should now list those writers we think are overrated.

    - Martin Amis
    - Salman Rushdie
    - Howard Jacobson - other than his first novel "Coming from Behind"(which made me laugh out loud on the tube) and his essays.

    Dickens. Sorry. Turgid stuff.
    Jonathan Franzen. Boring.
    Zadie Smith. Boring and jejune.
    Virginia Woolf. A failed James Joyce
    Saul Bellow? I've never read him because I can't get beyond the first paragraph.
    The late works of Philip Roth. Boring.


    I like Martin Amis. He can be laugh out loud funny, a very rare talent in a writer.


    Agree on Dickens, Woolf. Haven't tried the others.

    I liked Graham Greene when younger but haven't read him in years. I wonder what I'd make of him now.



    To be fair to Woolf I like her "minor" works, e.g. Orlando, or a Room of One's Own, it's the serious important novels I dislike, To The Lighthouse etc.

    Failed modernism.
    I'd add Trollope and Sylvia Plath to the overrated authors list.
  • Options
    pbr2013 said:

    Speedy said:

    Schedule of one typical EU crisis summit, no point at guessing which of them, they all look the same:

    THURSDAY
    4.10pm The Prime Minister, fresh from seeing his son Elwen starring as a mouse in his school’s nativity play, departs from RAF Northolt in a small aircraft with his closest aides. The party experiences a bumpy landing in Brussels owing to turbulence – a foreshadowing of torrid talks to come.
    6.40pm Cameron arrives at the EU Council’s Justus Lipsius building, where the summit is to be held.
    7.25pm The PM meets France’s Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany’s Angela Merkel for 45 minutes of pre-summit talks. He is joined by William Hague, key European adviser Jon Cunliffe and chief of staff Ed Llewellyn. Aides emerge with faces like thunder, saying Sarkozy is refusing to acknowledge that Britain has any right to ask for concessions in a new fiscal union treaty.
    8.10pm EU leaders sit down for a dinner of soup, cod, chocolate cake and ice cream. Each of the 27 speaks in turn. According to some sources, Sarkozy becomes so animated that at one point he has to be physically restrained. After dinner, the summit resumes.
    FRIDAY
    2.30am Cameron makes his main contribution to the discussion, insisting the protections Britain has requested for the City of London and the single market are ‘perfectly reasonable’. The PM later says ‘everyone else in the room’ was telling him ‘give up your national interests, and go along with what everyone wants’. At this point Cameron, reportedly banging the table, formally declares he cannot support the new EU-wide treaty.
    3.30am Summit breaks as EU leaders consider what to do next.
    4.48am Talks end with British veto of fiscal union plan.
    5.08am Sarkozy gives press conference to announce regret at ‘unacceptable demands’ from Cameron.
    6.19am Cameron tells press conference what was on offer from other EU leaders ‘was not in Britain’s interests, so I didn’t agree to it’.
    6.50am Cameron finally goes to bed at British Embassy.
    8.15am He orders a full English breakfast.

    I've forgotten what it was he "vetoed" now. What was it?
    Fiscal compact, 2011, I think?
  • Options
    Reece fucking Topley can fuck right off.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    Fielding practice needed for England.

    Well that match was way more interesting than three hours of EU debate. :)
  • Options
    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    The number of Tory mps backing leave doesn't matter as much as the number of labour ones.

    There is no route to victory for leave that doesn't involve winning > 50% of the labour vote.

  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Fielding practice needed for England.

    Well that match was way more interesting than three hours of EU debate. :)

    Same result though...England getting beat up...
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Reece fucking Topley can fuck right off.

    This.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    pbr2013 said:

    Speedy said:

    Schedule of one typical EU crisis summit, no point at guessing which of them, they all look the same:

    THURSDAY
    4.10pm The Prime Minister, fresh from seeing his son Elwen starring as a mouse in his school’s nativity play, departs from RAF Northolt in a small aircraft with his closest aides. The party experiences a bumpy landing in Brussels owing to turbulence – a foreshadowing of torrid talks to come.
    6.40pm Cameron arrives at the EU Council’s Justus Lipsius building, where the summit is to be held.
    7.25pm The PM meets France’s Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany’s Angela Merkel for 45 minutes of pre-summit talks. He is joined by William Hague, key European adviser Jon Cunliffe and chief of staff Ed Llewellyn. Aides emerge with faces like thunder, saying Sarkozy is refusing to acknowledge that Britain has any right to ask for concessions in a new fiscal union treaty.
    8.10pm EU leaders sit down for a dinner of soup, cod, chocolate cake and ice cream. Each of the 27 speaks in turn. According to some sources, Sarkozy becomes so animated that at one point he has to be physically restrained. After dinner, the summit resumes.
    FRIDAY
    2.30am Cameron makes his main contribution to the discussion, insisting the protections Britain has requested for the City of London and the single market are ‘perfectly reasonable’. The PM later says ‘everyone else in the room’ was telling him ‘give up your national interests, and go along with what everyone wants’. At this point Cameron, reportedly banging the table, formally declares he cannot support the new EU-wide treaty.
    3.30am Summit breaks as EU leaders consider what to do next.
    4.48am Talks end with British veto of fiscal union plan.
    5.08am Sarkozy gives press conference to announce regret at ‘unacceptable demands’ from Cameron.
    6.19am Cameron tells press conference what was on offer from other EU leaders ‘was not in Britain’s interests, so I didn’t agree to it’.
    6.50am Cameron finally goes to bed at British Embassy.
    8.15am He orders a full English breakfast.

    I've forgotten what it was he "vetoed" now. What was it?
    The Fiscal Compact. Which would have required the UK to submit its fiscal plans to the ECB for approval before we built an extension, eg of the M6 toll road.
  • Options
    Topley must be a saffa.... what a choker.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Having one of your youngest players bowling the final over — not a bright idea.
  • Options
    I knew England were scraping the bottom of the barrel, picking old uncle Reece Topley and all.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    If Gove does come out, so to speak, it will be yet another episode in his honourable career of trying not to be a janus-type politician.

    I doubt it will do him any good and as has been much rehearsed, he ain't going to be PM any time soon but dear god we need politicians like him.

    Perhaps the PM, through gritted teeth, or perhaps HMQ herself could reach into the tightly locked box of hereditary peerages and make him a viscount or something. Just to go to the Lords as a life peer Lord Gove of Integrity would seem woefully inadequate.

    Integrity is what makes a real leader.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Really, at this stage Cameron should simply stop and say that the negotiations have not got where they need to for a conclusion to be reached. Some useful work, blah, blah. Time for everyone to go away and think and regroup. Oh and BTW there is another 18 months before the referendum need be held.

    He's rushing for no good reason. This isn't about him. It's about the country. And he needs to do this properly.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Sandpit said:

    Fielding practice needed for England.

    Well that match was way more interesting than three hours of EU debate. :)

    Same result though...England getting beat up...
    It's why we love cricket. The result was exactly what we expected it to be 90 min ago yet so much more exciting!

    A bit like the Test in Abu Dhabi when I left the ground at lunch and there were eight wickets in the afternoon session to set up an England chase. But it was still a draw!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    pbr2013 said:

    Speedy said:

    Schedule of one typical EU crisis summit, no point at guessing which of them, they all look the same:

    THURSDAY
    4.10pm The Prime Minister, fresh from seeing his son Elwen starring as a mouse in his school’s nativity play, departs from RAF Northolt in a small aircraft with his closest aides. The party experiences a bumpy landing in Brussels owing to turbulence – a foreshadowing of torrid talks to come.
    6.40pm Cameron arrives at the EU Council’s Justus Lipsius building, where the summit is to be held.
    7.25pm The PM meets France’s Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany’s Angela Merkel for 45 minutes of pre-summit talks. He is joined by William Hague, key European adviser Jon Cunliffe and chief of staff Ed Llewellyn. Aides emerge with faces like thunder, saying Sarkozy is refusing to acknowledge that Britain has any right to ask for concessions in a new fiscal union treaty.
    8.10pm EU leaders sit down for a dinner of soup, cod, chocolate cake and ice cream. Each of the 27 speaks in turn. According to some sources, Sarkozy becomes so animated that at one point he has to be physically restrained. After dinner, the summit resumes.
    FRIDAY
    2.30am Cameron makes his main contribution to the discussion, insisting the protections Britain has requested for the City of London and the single market are ‘perfectly reasonable’. The PM later says ‘everyone else in the room’ was telling him ‘give up your national interests, and go along with what everyone wants’. At this point Cameron, reportedly banging the table, formally declares he cannot support the new EU-wide treaty.
    3.30am Summit breaks as EU leaders consider what to do next.
    4.48am Talks end with British veto of fiscal union plan.
    5.08am Sarkozy gives press conference to announce regret at ‘unacceptable demands’ from Cameron.
    6.19am Cameron tells press conference what was on offer from other EU leaders ‘was not in Britain’s interests, so I didn’t agree to it’.
    6.50am Cameron finally goes to bed at British Embassy.
    8.15am He orders a full English breakfast.

    I've forgotten what it was he "vetoed" now. What was it?
    The Fiscal Compact. Which would have required the UK to submit its fiscal plans to the ECB for approval before we built an extension, eg of the M6 toll road.
    That and they wanted to force the City to submit to full EBA oversight and sideline the BoE.
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Cyclefree said:

    Really, at this stage Cameron should simply stop and say that the negotiations have not got where they need to for a conclusion to be reached. Some useful work, blah, blah. Time for everyone to go away and think and regroup. Oh and BTW there is another 18 months before the referendum need be held.

    He's rushing for no good reason. This isn't about him. It's about the country. And he needs to do this properly.

    'Cameron' and 'do things properly' aren't two adjectives that naturally spring to mind with me. It's like saying 'Reece Topley calm under pressure' after today!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited February 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    Really, at this stage Cameron should simply stop and say that the negotiations have not got where they need to for a conclusion to be reached. Some useful work, blah, blah. Time for everyone to go away and think and regroup. Oh and BTW there is another 18 months before the referendum need be held.

    He's rushing for no good reason. This isn't about him. It's about the country. And he needs to do this properly.

    TBH though do we really think the various EU nations and concerns for protecting their own best interests will have changed much in 18 months....all that will happen is basically no further progress and stalling would fill the extra time.

    The reality is Cameron can't get anything significant now, nor in 18 months.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited February 2016
    SeanT said:

    The number of Tory mps backing leave doesn't matter as much as the number of labour ones.

    There is no route to victory for leave that doesn't involve winning > 50% of the labour vote.

    Yes there is. Apathy amongst REMAIN. If the pro-EU young and left simply don't turn out, then the older LEAVERS win.
    If you go on BSE's Twitter page you can see they are doing a ton of campaigning in London. I imagine their activists are metropolitan liberal types who live in London and other big cities. I can see this causing them problems.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I adore Pride and Prejudice.

    But I have to confess I've never heard of most of the other authors people have mentioned and have never read Pratchett.

    "A Prayer for Owen Meany" by John Irving is also good.

    The 3 novels by JG Farrell: Troubles, The Siege of Krishnapur and The Hill Station are worth seeking out.

    Perhaps we should now list those writers we think are overrated.

    - Martin Amis
    - Salman Rushdie
    - Howard Jacobson - other than his first novel "Coming from Behind"(which made me laugh out loud on the tube) and his essays.

    Dickens. Sorry. Turgid stuff.
    Jonathan Franzen. Boring.
    Zadie Smith. Boring and jejune.
    Virginia Woolf. A failed James Joyce
    Saul Bellow? I've never read him because I can't get beyond the first paragraph.
    The late works of Philip Roth. Boring.


    I like Martin Amis. He can be laugh out loud funny, a very rare talent in a writer.


    Agree on Dickens, Woolf. Haven't tried the others.

    I liked Graham Greene when younger but haven't read him in years. I wonder what I'd make of him now.



    To be fair to Woolf I like her "minor" works, e.g. Orlando, or a Room of One's Own, it's the serious important novels I dislike, To The Lighthouse etc.

    Failed modernism.
    I'd add Trollope and Sylvia Plath to the overrated authors list.
    Nobody would have heard of Plath if she hadn't married Ted Hughes.
  • Options
    I respect James Forsyth a lot. It seems Boris is very truly holding his own council:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/is-michael-gove-about-to-back-out/
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    The number of Tory mps backing leave doesn't matter as much as the number of labour ones.

    There is no route to victory for leave that doesn't involve winning > 50% of the labour vote.

    Yes there is. Apathy amongst REMAIN. If the pro-EU young and left simply don't turn out, then the older LEAVERS win.
    The oldies split for REMAIN in all the Ipsos-MORI phone polls

  • Options

    The number of Tory mps backing leave doesn't matter as much as the number of labour ones.

    There is no route to victory for leave that doesn't involve winning > 50% of the labour vote.

    Assuming you mean for Leave, yes there is. 90% of UKIP support + 60% Con support would give Leave more than 35% for starters. They only then require about a third of Lab, LD, SNP and Green. Even if that all came from Labour, it'd still only be about a half but the LDs in the SW have a Eurosceptic edge, as does the SNP.

    And that's assuming equal turnout. In reality, each parties' vote will split three ways: Leave, Remain and abstain.
  • Options
    DavidL from this morning:

    It seems his memory of Chancellors only extends back as far as Gordon Brown.

    " Osborne has been a victim of his own success in this. I remember when a Chancellor who got within £5bn of his forecast would be seriously chuffed with himself. Osborne, in contrast, has got absurdly close. He clearly fiddles it and will no doubt do so again. "

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    "Don't you think it's embarrassing that when Europe is facing the biggest refugee crisis since the war the Prime Minister is fiddling around trying to persuade the European heads of state that the UK shouldn't have to pay child benefit to immigrant workers which last year cost £34 million?" asked John Snow........

    Can anyone hand on heart say that this Tory government isn't a massive fu*king embarrassment?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298

    Cyclefree said:

    Really, at this stage Cameron should simply stop and say that the negotiations have not got where they need to for a conclusion to be reached. Some useful work, blah, blah. Time for everyone to go away and think and regroup. Oh and BTW there is another 18 months before the referendum need be held.

    He's rushing for no good reason. This isn't about him. It's about the country. And he needs to do this properly.

    TBH though do we really think the various EU nations and concerns for protecting their own best interests will have changed much in 18 months....all that will happen is basically no further progress and stalling would fill the extra time.

    The reality is Cameron can't get anything significant now, nor in 18 months.
    to say nothing of how much the UK public gives a flying f***.

    That is the challenge, as every politician knows. For the good of the UK is nothing you can drop on your foot. Winning a negotiation, even if it is to get the 27 to half-promise they won't disallow 3 o'clock Premier League kick-offs for three years, is a victory and will be spun to the public as such.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    MP_SE said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    When I ask teachers I know why they hate Gove the answer is usually something along the lines of because the NUT told them he was a horrible person. God help the children taught by these people.
    No. That is completely wrong. It is because he is rude, arrogant and dishonest.

    Rude - he said that all teachers were opposed to the good teaching of children.

    Arrogant - he believed he knew more about education than teachers because he had read some reports on the subjects from other people, most of whom were not teachers.

    Dishonest - he said that we were opposed to him because we are naturally stubborn and lazy, when in reality we were opposed to the rushed nature of his changes and the lackadaisical way he was implementing them (see Academy chains collapsing, no Maths GCSE spec six months before lessons start, record attrition rates among NQTs...)

    He began with a huge groundswell of optimism and support among teachers.* Have you forgotten that a majority of my profession voted for him in 2010? And that a much larger majority voted Labour in 2015? Gove's personality was the key driver of that change. Had he worked with teachers, to modify his ideas to reflect this funny thing called reality, the fact that he is intelligent and genuinely does want to give children a great education would have given him a chance to be a truly great Education secretary - perhaps the only truly great one. He threw it away out of a personal need to insult and belittle. What an idiot.

    It is disturbing to note that some people are not paying careful attention to his record as Lord Chancellor either - legal aid fiascoes, anyone? Managing to alienate all solicitors and judges by pettiness and name calling? He does not change, no matter what his job.

    A Conservative party led by Gove would make the current disaster under Jihadi Jez look like a teddy bears' picnic. And it could well deliver the Bearded Wonder into government.

    *It should be noted, one of his first actions, in getting Wilshaw to head OFSTED, was also hugely popular with teachers and seen as a first step into turning the hydra that is OFSTED into something vaguely useful. Wilshaw has however turned out to be an even bigger disaster than Gove, and OFSTED ratings now bear very little resemblance to the actual performance of a school.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,760
    philiph said:

    Or is Gove just giving his mate Dave ammunition and bargaining power in his negotiations?

    I don't think so. There is a temptation to infer order underlying chaos, whereas what may be happening is simply events: Gove thinks LEAVE is the correct thing to do, Gove says so, no conspiracy required.

    If GoveLeave is true, then I am saddened. He is a rational creature and I assume he has arrived at his decision after deliberation and for what he considers to be the right reasons. I understand he is unpopular but that should have no bearing on the question of whether LEAVE or REMAIN is the right choice. BorisLeave would come with a nasty aftertaste of pandering and dissembling, but GoveLeave does not: intellectually, I prefer the latter to the former. If true, a sad day for REMAIN.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Really, at this stage Cameron should simply stop and say that the negotiations have not got where they need to for a conclusion to be reached. Some useful work, blah, blah. Time for everyone to go away and think and regroup. Oh and BTW there is another 18 months before the referendum need be held.

    He's rushing for no good reason. This isn't about him. It's about the country. And he needs to do this properly.

    He's rushing because, migration.
    It just feels horribly dishonest. Sneaky. Low. Beneath the Prime Minister we thought we liked and admired.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    SeanT said:

    Mortimer said:

    EPG said:

    A Gove Conservative Party might make the next election competitive
    I have liked him on most of his policy briefs but he enemyises people quickly

    Rubbish. Some teachers hated him because he was reforming a highly politicised profession with much of the year as holidays....

    Parents think he is great.

    There are more parents than teachers.
    Eh, sadly, no. He has some of the worst popularity ratings in the Cabinet.
    Presumably amongst YouGov panel members?

    Amongst the actual public, especially the Tory voting public, he is popular.

    He has also been a fantastic Justice secretary.
    And before that he was a fantastic Education Secretary - to the point that the Blob thought they had won even though the reforms all went through!
    The problem is Sandpit that they haven't gone through yet. GCSE reforms are due to be implemented this autumn. As yet, the Maths GCSE is not ready, and there seems a very real chance that it cannot be launched in time (realistically, there are about 2-3 weeks left to do it). If it is not ready, it is hard to see how the others can go ahead.
This discussion has been closed.