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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Coalition has left it too late to benefit from infrastr

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited June 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Coalition has left it too late to benefit from infrastructure

This week Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander trumpeted a raft of infrastructure investments totalling £100bn. There are some reasons to question with the overall figure. As the Independent says ‘some of the projects, in the best tradition of political spin, had already been announced. Others, it turned out, may never be built at all.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: P2 underway, presently on intermediates but it's very close to dry tyres.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    yes, they have.

    Infrastructure spend should have been kicked off in Y2 of the coalition to offset the problem in the Eurozone.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited June 2013
    the Labour view at the time was that the Coalition’s decision to cut capital spending would cost jobs, undermine key sectors and slow down growth.

    Really? A large dose of rewriting history there.

    Darling's plan was to cut capital spending by more than the coalition did. Admittedly Labour (shamefully) didn't do a spending review, so we never discovered what they were going to cut. Of course they didn't know that either; there was no detailed plan at all - they deliberately and cynically flunked that. There was just irresponsibility.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    the Labour view at the time was that the Coalition’s decision to cut capital spending would cost jobs, undermine key sectors and slow down growth.

    Really? A large dose of rewriting history there.

    Darling's plan was to cut capital spending by more than the coalition did. Admittedly Labour (shamefully) didn't do a spending review, so we never discovered what they were going to cut. Of course they didn't know that either; there was no detailed plan at all - they deliberately and cynically flunked that. There was just irresponsibility.

    Yup, labour's preferred option wasn't capital spending but to cut VAT and tax bankers.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    A key area where nothing has happened on infrastructure is Energy.

    Which party has been running that department ?

    A key transport investment is the upgrade of the A14.

    Which party does the much derided Cambridge MP who continues to oppose this essential upgrade for "climate change" reasons represent ?

    Answers on a yellow post it.


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    One key aspect is to distinguish between investment and spending - something Gordon criminally confused or deliberately conflated. Investment is generally goos - as long as you get a decent enough return on expenditure. Spending is spending and you get no return.

    So criticising along the lines of 'money to invest but not to spend' is illiterate.

    I think investment should never have been slashed. Spending should.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,274
    edited June 2013
    Laura Robson wins in straight sets against Colombia's Duque-Marino to get to the third round at Wimbledon!!!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,274
    Henry: why ministers can find an extra £10bn for HS2 while £11.5bn is cut from local public services.

    Why can ministers find £18bn for our annual contribution to Europe while £11.5bn is cut from local public services?
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    "A lie, debunked a million times". which is in itself a lie, posted by the resident PB expert on lying
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Another man of the people :D

    Ewan Murray ‏@mrewanmurray 9m

    Busy day for Alex Salmond. Tells the R&A to shove their Open invite then wanders along The Gorgie Road to buy a couple of season tickets.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Amount spent on infrastructure by Labour since 2010 : £0.

    FACT.
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    Yes - massively too late.

    The gold-dust for a government during a recession period are 'shovel ready' infrastructure projects that can be implemented asap to help support the economy during the downturn. Better still if they clearly help fix a problem that will occur in a few years time and/or to support growth and development as the economy recovers.

    In light of the discussion about school places on the last thread it is worth reminding people that one of the very first actions of this government was to scrap a whole bunch of shovel ready projects (and scrapping then actually was a waste of money because they were so far advanced) in the Building Schools for the Future scheme.

    Suggesting starting to invest sometime years ahead is no help at all - investment was needed over the past 5 years.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    "A lie, debunked a million times". which is in itself a lie, posted by the resident PB expert on lying

    At least Tim quoted an article to give evidence for his accusation . You have simply accused him of lying and provided none .
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    tim said:

    On topic.

    Yes, they've misstimed it badly, they spent the first two years believing Osborne's fantasies about having established growth, secured recovery etc etc etc.
    Staggering misjudgement.

    Here's the graph

    https://twitter.com/search?q=ifs infrastructure&src=typd

    A national tragedy engineered by the govt.

    nah the national tragedy took place 1997-2010, this is just a Balls-up.

    why Labour suddenly want infrastructure when they could have rebuilt the country with the cash they wasted when in government is the bit of the story we're all waiting to hear.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    On the point on what has changed since 2010: A lot.

    Darling, let us never forget, was running out of money at the end of the third week of every month, and having to borrow on average an eye-watering 33% of all tax revenues, every month, just to cover current bills - not investment. That was an absolutely staggering overspend, on a scale never before seen in peacetime in modern Britain. Of course Osborne had to take immediate action, and of course if you leave dealing with the problem too late, as Labour did, the inevitable result is that the cuts are harsher than they would otherwise need to be. Capital spending is the easiest, quickest and least painful saving you can make if you're in a hurry, as he had to be with that toxic legacy.

    Of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that Osborne's original 2010 spending review was too generous on welfare (mainly because inflation turned out higher than expected because of world commodity prices remaining surprisingly firm). Cutting welfare more, so as to leave more room for capital projects, would have been wise. Somehow, though, I don't recall Labour criticising him on that basis in 2010. Quite the opposite - they were laying into him for cutting even the most brain-dead spending.

    Still I do enjoy the irony of Labour going on about infrastructure and investment. This is a party which presided over nearly 13 years of unprecedented prosperity, led by the booming City, with massive tax revenues and a huge increase in public spending. And what did we get for it? Certainly not world-class infrastructure, that is for sure. Housebuilding, roads, rail - all missed out despite that massive spending spree. We did get some fancy new schools buildings (but not better education), and, to be fair, a good number of new hospitals. But they haven't been paid for - they were off-balance sheet.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    As always it is a question of timing.

    It's standard practice to cut capex in the early part of a turnaround (as these cuts are easy). Once the recovery is established (even if early) you gently turn on investment to catch up on the last few years.

    Even setting aside the headline figures - structural deficit, etc - which were terrible, the economy bequeathed to the Coalition was so unbalanced in all sorts of different ways.

    The more we learn, the more it becomes clear that the last government was the worst in living memory.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    tim said:
    "So in the bigger picture, no-one can really claim the crown of being the greatest cheerleader for investment in infrastructure."
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Well labour did nothing for 13 years....
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Cheshire Farmer said it had been debunked a million times,,that is an awfully precise number ,,and not a jot of evidence to back it up, sorry to be pedantic but I know he likes accuracy in posts, except his own apparently .. so therefore it was a lie.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    We did get some fancy new schools buildings (but not better education), and, to be fair, a good number of new hospitals. But they haven't been paid for

    Our grandchildren will still be paying for them long after some of them have been demolished.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    It was really inexcusable not to use all the capital built up in our sovereign funds during the boom years to spend in a counter cyclical way. What was the point of all of Brown's careful saving and scrimping if the money was just going to sit there ingathering pitiful interest?

    The Coalition should be ashamed. They behaved as if they had in fact inherited the largest deficit in the western world.

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    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    "Yet voters (and some MPs) can be forgiven for being increasingly perplexed as to why ministers can find an extra £10bn for HS2 while £11.5bn is cut from local public services.

    Because one results in a national transport asset and the other results in a bunch of pen-pushers having an extra holiday that year?
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited June 2013
    I think Henry is blinded by numbers and details and is not seeing the big picture.

    The government's plan was always going to be to have a few tough years and for things to then turn so that they could enter the election campaign on a rising tide of optimism for the future, and campaign on the basis of keeping that optimistic future safe from Labour.

    Certainly the last couple of years have been tougher than expected, and so this plan is not altogether intact. The government has to go into the election campaign with the promise of more tough times ahead. However, the plans for infrastructure spending are a vital part of the plan in terms of building a narrative about an optimistic future.

    Whether the numbers make sense is pretty much irrelevant [my favourite chart on why they don't], what matters is the narrative: "We made, and will continue to make, hard decisions to fix the deficit Labour created, and that means we can invest in building a better tomorrow for the country."

    Labour don't have a coherent alternative narrative. They will probably end up with most seats anyway. They've backed off from disagreeing with the Coalition, and not many people are that surprised, but given that everyone was expecting the manoeuvre, I am surprised that they haven't had a fall-back position worked out.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    @tim
    Darling's last budget was a work of fiction drawn up on the back of an envelope.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I'm confused. Is Henry arguing that the government is doing the right thing even if its long-term planning and isn't politically expedient or something with instant public gratification?

    Isn't that a good thing?
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited June 2013

    tim said:
    "So in the bigger picture, no-one can really claim the crown of being the greatest cheerleader for investment in infrastructure."

    Now that we have some updated figures from when that article was written, we can see that Labour had planned to spend 160bn on capital investment between 2010 and 2013 (down from 190bn in the preceding 3 years) while the coalition have actually spent 157bn.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @tim - See the comment to the article you quoted by Phil Taylor.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    JonathanD said:

    tim said:
    "So in the bigger picture, no-one can really claim the crown of being the greatest cheerleader for investment in infrastructure."

    Now that we have some updated figures from when that article was written, we can see that Labour had planned to spend 160bn on capital investment between 2010 and 2013 (down from 190bn in the preceding 3 years) while the coalition have actually spent 157bn.
    No one believes labours figures were any more than fantasy.

    Apart from tim.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    FPT - tim often trots out 'but they have lower fertility rates' when challenged over Labour's failure to plan for the EU immigration....up to a point, Lord Copper:

    Number of live births - mother from Poland (rank mothers born outside UK)

    2005: 3,403 #9 (first year in top 10)
    2006: 6,620 #4
    2007: 11,952 #3
    2008: 16,101 #2
    2009: 18,159 #2
    2010: 19,762 #1
    2011: 20,495 #1

    Over the same period, the numbers of births from mothers born in the next most frequent country - Pakistan - has been broadly stable ±18,000.

    To be clear - I think the last government did the right thing by Poland (we owe them from WWII) - but failed spectacularly to plan or build for the influx.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: McNish betting £5 that Di Resta will be top Briton, ahead of Hamilton (Allen's pick). Quite hard to decide (I wouldn't bet on that either way, I think).
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    tim said:
    "So in the bigger picture, no-one can really claim the crown of being the greatest cheerleader for investment in infrastructure."

    Now that we have some updated figures from when that article was written, we can see that Labour had planned to spend 160bn on capital investment between 2010 and 2013 (down from 190bn in the preceding 3 years) while the coalition have actually spent 157bn.
    No one believes labours figures were any more than fantasy.

    Apart from tim.

    Indeed, look at how the OBR phrased it shortly after the election

    "For the years after the end of the current Spending Review period in 2011-12 the previous
    Government did not publish DEL plans or AME projections. Instead, it published projections of
    total PSCE and total PSNI that were produced on the basis of a top-down assumption rather
    than through bottom-up forecasts."


    http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/wordpress/docs/pre_budget_forecast_140610.pdf
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    JonathanD said:

    tim said:
    "So in the bigger picture, no-one can really claim the crown of being the greatest cheerleader for investment in infrastructure."
    Now that we have some updated figures from when that article was written, we can see that Labour had planned to spend 160bn on capital investment between 2010 and 2013 (down from 190bn in the preceding 3 years) while the coalition have actually spent 157bn.
    You are also comparing a 'planned' vs 'actual' - Capital spend frequently undershoots - in any case, how would Labour have afforded it with their VAT cut?

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    tim said:

    And here's todays release from the DCLG.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/planning-applications-in-england-january-to-march-2013

    Planning applications granted - down


    But larger residential planning consents up 2%. These figures are an irrelevance in any event. Housebuilders are sitting on more granted consents than they could build in 4 years already and they are now starting to utilise them.

    Housebuilding is already growing strongly and will be growing very strongly by the end of the year.

    And by the way what are you talking about when you say that Osborne cut housebuilding in half? Are you talking about public housing or overall?

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This is grimly amusing on more than on level

    It takes four people to post a letter, and staff travel to the office in taxpayer-funded limousines.

    This is the extraordinary insight into life as a Eurocrat, depicted in a Brussels-funded colouring book for children about the life of 'Mr and Mrs MEP'.

    David Cameron brandished the extraordinary publication at a meeting with EU leaders, as he called for an end to such a 'scandalous waste of money'.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350610/Cameron-stuns-leaders-reluctant-cut-EU-budget-brandishing-Brussels-funded-COLOURING-BOOK-Mr-Mrs-MEP.html#ixzz2XWFveFd5
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    And here's what Ed Balls was actually advocating in August 2010:

    We need to reinstate vital investments now which support jobs and recovery:

    - the Future Jobs Fund

    - the September school leavers guarantee

    - the youth jobs guarantee

    - the Building School for the Future capital programme


    Three extra chunks of current spending, and only one which could remotely be described as capital expenditure - and a very odd one too, the most wasteful capital program of the lot. No infrastructure investment at all.

    http://www.edballs.co.uk/blog/?p=907
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    tim said:

    And here's todays release from the DCLG.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/planning-applications-in-england-january-to-march-2013

    Planning applications granted - down


    Waht's the point, if any, you are trying to make?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pointless arguing with tim penny - the drum only bangs on and on to one tune : I hate Tories.

    His refusal to discuss Labour policy diminishes him as a poster frankly.

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @richardDodd

    '"A lie, debunked a million times". which is in itself a lie, posted by the resident PB expert on lying'

    Jacqui Smith got slapped down by Andrew Neil last night for coming out with the same crap.

    'Alastair Darling’s March 2010 budget shows that Labour had forecast a cut in spending on infrastructure, from 4.1 per cent of GDP in 2010-11 to 3.3 per cent the following year.

    In the event, just under 4 per cent of GDP was invested in infrastructure in 2010-11 under the coalition government, dropping to 3.1 per cent the following year. A difference of 0.2 per cent, which on that scale, means relatively little.

    So in the bigger picture, no-one can really claim the crown of being the greatest cheerleader for investment in infrastructure.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Afternoon all :)

    Attitudes have changed since 2010 - back then, the focus of debate was purely on cuts and many argued that the reduction in the deficit should be achieved wholly through cutting expenditure with no tax rises at all.

    We now see local authorities using low prudential borrowing rates to invest in property with the aim of funding servives through rental yields. Inconceivable a few years ago but the new economic culture has brought about an upsurge in new thinking about how to make and utilise public funds.

    There was an almost kneejerk reaction to anything smacking of Keynesianism or "New Deal" style economics but the realisation that properly-targetted capital expenditure to promote growth and kept people into jobs is a good way to reduce both deficit and overall debt has finally sunk in.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    Don't forget this one

    Immediate one-year cut in VAT to 5% on home improvements, repairs and maintenance

    A no brainer for everyone except the genius Chancellor.
    Even you recognised that.

    That would be the no-brainer which would be potentially illegal under EU laws?

    genius indeed....
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    FPT

    @taffys

    'Any thoughts on why Wales appears to have made such a horlicks of devolution while Scotland hasn't?

    Four reasons leap to mind: aspiration, competence, capability and corporate governance.

    Aspiration is almost an unknown word. In education average is viewed as OK - no real need to do better, and that culture goes across much of the public sector. I have heard of children being discouraged to apply for the top universities - almost an inferiority complex. Indeed, the Welsh feel that all is right if they beat England at rugby and mentally are still fighting the battles of the Middle Ages. There is a tremendous amount of inward looking and feeling regarding what the world can do for Wales, rather than what Wales can do for the world - they have to realise that they are part of the global society and as such are competing for jobs and lifestyle.

    This lack of aspiration (and skill sets) leads to a lack of competence. European grants have been wasted on useless bureaucracy instead of infrastructure projects - like Spain and Ireland.

    Capability is deficient at many levels and really many of the Assembly members are not as capable as many parish councilors. The same applies to the Welsh Civil service.

    Corporate governance is very weak and scrutiny almost minimal. Massive sums of money (£millions) have been found to be fraudulently used by grant receiving pseudo-public sector organisations or charities.

    Need I say more?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TGOHF said:

    Pointless arguing with tim penny - the drum only bangs on and on to one tune : I hate Tories.

    His refusal to discuss Labour policy diminishes him as a poster frankly.

    be fair H, how can he discuss something that doesn't exist ? ;-)
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited June 2013
    @Tim

    'Osborne slashed funding for social housebuilding in half, and increased housing benefit spending as a result.'

    Osborne can never match New Labour's mass immigration policy combined with the lowest level of social house building since the second world war.
    Increased housing benefit on the back of that,who could have guessed.

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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    FPT - tim often trots out 'but they have lower fertility rates' when challenged over Labour's failure to plan for the EU immigration....up to a point, Lord Copper:

    Number of live births - mother from Poland (rank mothers born outside UK)

    2005: 3,403 #9 (first year in top 10)
    2006: 6,620 #4
    2007: 11,952 #3
    2008: 16,101 #2
    2009: 18,159 #2
    2010: 19,762 #1
    2011: 20,495 #1

    Over the same period, the numbers of births from mothers born in the next most frequent country - Pakistan - has been broadly stable ±18,000.

    To be clear - I think the last government did the right thing by Poland (we owe them from WWII) - but failed spectacularly to plan or build for the influx.

    Apologies if I'm misunderstanding this (I didn't understand it last time you posted it either) but isn't the correct measure of "fertility rate" the number of live births per member of the community, or possibly per woman of childbearing age? So these stats could mean that the number of Poles (by birth) increased while that of Pakistanis (by birth) stayed static; or both stayed static while one community had more children; or any other combination of moves really.

    To demonstrate that EU immigration is the issue, it would probably be better to look at EU nationals without British citizenship vs British nationals (I suspect many of the mothers born in Pakistan would be in the latter class) than a particular country of birth.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Plato said:

    This is grimly amusing on more than on level

    It takes four people to post a letter, and staff travel to the office in taxpayer-funded limousines.

    This is the extraordinary insight into life as a Eurocrat, depicted in a Brussels-funded colouring book for children about the life of 'Mr and Mrs MEP'.

    David Cameron brandished the extraordinary publication at a meeting with EU leaders, as he called for an end to such a 'scandalous waste of money'.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350610/Cameron-stuns-leaders-reluctant-cut-EU-budget-brandishing-Brussels-funded-COLOURING-BOOK-Mr-Mrs-MEP.html#ixzz2XWFveFd5
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Is the grimly amusing aspect the sight of some twonk wasting everybody's time at a meeting grandstanding about parliament spending money educating kids on what they do, while knowing perfectly well that his own domestic parliament does the same thing?

    http://www.parliament.uk/education/online-resources/games/get-the-houses-in-order-notes/

    PS Parliament has a game called "The Tower of Power", which I'm pretty sure is a reference to the Frank Zappa song "Bobby Brown".
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    Financier said:

    FPT

    @taffys

    'Any thoughts on why Wales appears to have made such a horlicks of devolution while Scotland hasn't?

    There is a tremendous amount of inward looking and feeling regarding what the world can do for Wales, rather than what Wales can do for the world - they have to realise that they are part of the global society and as such are competing for jobs and lifestyle.

    That's certainly a contrast with the Scotland I grew up in. Every family had relations who had gone abroad to Canada, the US or Australia - and when they came back we could see how they had prospered compared to the stay at homes. I remember a neighbour literally dancing in the street when they got their "£10 Pom" ok from Australia. Moving on & up was regarded as aspirational.

    Mind you, there was still the 'wee toon' mindset - where the greatest you could or should aspire to was to be Bank Manager of the RBS in the toon - 'He may be the Governor of the Bank of England - but he had to go to London, you know...' - like that was somehow cheating.

    The Scots prospered mightily from the Union & the Empire - running it in numbers out of all proportion to their population - but as that has gone, so too, I suspect, has a big chunk of the economic case for the Union.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    I'm looking forward to next year: I need to remortgage a house, coincidentally worth nearly £600k, and it would be really helpful to have a 95% mortgage rather than the current 75% as I could do with releasing 20% equity to expand my property portfolio. I'm not *quite* sure why the government wants to help me to do this, but it seems rude to refuse.

    Does anyone have any more details than these yet?

    https://www.gov.uk/affordable-home-ownership-schemes/help-to-buy-mortgage-guarantees
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    Plato said:

    This is grimly amusing on more than on level

    It takes four people to post a letter, and staff travel to the office in taxpayer-funded limousines.

    This is the extraordinary insight into life as a Eurocrat, depicted in a Brussels-funded colouring book for children about the life of 'Mr and Mrs MEP'.

    David Cameron brandished the extraordinary publication at a meeting with EU leaders, as he called for an end to such a 'scandalous waste of money'.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350610/Cameron-stuns-leaders-reluctant-cut-EU-budget-brandishing-Brussels-funded-COLOURING-BOOK-Mr-Mrs-MEP.html#ixzz2XWFveFd5
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Is the grimly amusing aspect the sight of some twonk wasting everybody's time at a meeting grandstanding about parliament spending money educating kids on what they do, while knowing perfectly well that his own domestic parliament does the same thing?

    http://www.parliament.uk/education/online-resources/games/get-the-houses-in-order-notes/

    PS Parliament has a game called "The Tower of Power", which I'm pretty sure is a reference to the Frank Zappa song "Bobby Brown".
    Perhaps Vaclav Havel was thinking of that one when he made him cultural ambassador or whatever... obviously a great musician, Zappa, but i'ms still not sure about his humour. Does humour belong in music? well.. depends how you go about it i guess.

    grimly amusing is pretty much the most entertainment anyone can get out of the daily mail, i suspect
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    edited June 2013
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Attitudes have changed since 2010 - back then, the focus of debate was purely on cuts and many argued that the reduction in the deficit should be achieved wholly through cutting expenditure with no tax rises at all.

    That really is nonsense. In the June 2010 emergency budget there were a whole series of tax increases central of which was the increase in VAT from 17.5% to 20% with effect from January 2011. In the early days, inevitably, tax increases played a much larger role in reducing the deficit than spending cuts.

    The inability of the Coalition to address spending without complex legislation reducing the mountain of entitlements then in existence inevitably meant that discretionary spending (such as infrastructure) was disproportionately hit. This was unfortunate but we were where the worst government in my lifetime had left us.

    Sorry not sure how I did this but the first paragraph was stodge's and the next 2 my reply.

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Aspiration is almost an unknown word. In education average is viewed as OK - no real need to do better

    I logged to to the site of my old school in Swansea the other day and was astonished at how they played down their academic record. Almost didn't mention it at all. Oxbridge is often in double figures and Russell group dozens every year. In the small print.

    Clearly tall poppies get their heads cut off.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    Polruan said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    I'm looking forward to next year: I need to remortgage a house, coincidentally worth nearly £600k, and it would be really helpful to have a 95% mortgage rather than the current 75% as I could do with releasing 20% equity to expand my property portfolio. I'm not *quite* sure why the government wants to help me to do this, but it seems rude to refuse.

    Does anyone have any more details than these yet?

    https://www.gov.uk/affordable-home-ownership-schemes/help-to-buy-mortgage-guarantees
    The details of the scheme are not available yet but contrary to what tim is saying the government won't be handing out money to anyone. Instead they will guarantee a part of your deposit so the lender will get it back in the event of your default. The fact that it is a guarantee rather than a payment is why it is "off the books" as Tim likes to claim.

    So it will enable you to release your own money from your house and allow you to invest it elsewhere, even into new housing. Tim will explain why this is a bad thing for the economy because it is beyond me.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    Again - nothing about the Labour alternative - just static analysis from selective stats - boring !!!

    Engage in the debate - what would rEd do from 2015 - stop banging on about Super Ally Darling and his unprovable fantasy budget of 2010.





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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    tim said:

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    You haven't understood the point, nor what fertility rates are so have posted absolute numbers, seemingly in an attempt to absolve Michael Gove of any responsibility for providing school places for children born since the election.
    Of course I understand the difference between fertility rates and absolute numbers - in the context of school places, its absolute numbers that count, not fertility rates, however much you'd like to deflect from the consequences of Labour's failure to respond to their unplanned immigration boom.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    I think the point that tim's making (no doubt he'll be along shortly...) is that the Polish community has a lower birth rate per head than the British community, and there are more people of working age paying taxes to support the consequent school places than is the case for an equivalent number of British citizens. So it's perhaps net beneficial.

    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born (you've got 4-5 years to deal with the issue) rather than when people immigrate, who may or may not have babies, and may or may not stay for 5 years. Immigration is obviously a cause of population growth, including school place requirement growth, but I'm not sure why you'd isolate it is a factor. The first level data are available, in other words, so why would you analyse need based on the second level data?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    Polruan said:

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born (you've got 4-5 years to deal with the issue)
    Taking us back to 2008-2009 - when Ed Balls was Schools Secretary......

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    You have got it all wrong, tim.

    Next year the Chancellor will be guaranteeing a maximum of 14.25% of a mortgage loan against repossession in the first seven years of the loan's term. The amount guaranteed falls as the principal is paid down by the mortgagee and 'self-liquidates' after seven years.

    This guarantee scheme will replace the equity sharing scheme to which you refer.

    It is "off balance sheet" (i.e it does not add to public sector borrowing) as guarantees are properly classified in the UK's National Accounts as the provision of insurance. At present contingent liabilities which result from insurance provided are not stated in the books. This is due to change as the supranational accounting standards bodies introduce new policies.

    With regard to shared equity participation (your "handing £120,000 to everyone"), the government purchases an asset (share of equity in a property) worth £120,000 which is matched by a liability (borrowing of £120,000). The net borrowing is therefore zero although I suspect there may be some provision against loss.

    In both the equity participation and guarantee schemes the government charges banks and/or borrowers fees which cover the cost of administering the scheme including a cover of reasonable risk.

    So it is not "all off the books". It simply doesn't increase net public sector borrowing for sound accounting reasons.

    The only valid complaint you might have against the accounting treatment of the schemes is that contingent liabilities on the guarantees are not entered into the books. As stated above, this is beyond the government's current control and will change in due course.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    " der Shitstorm" enters the german vocabulary officially as it is included in Duden ( german version of OED )

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/sprache-der-duden-nimmt-den-shitstorm-auf-12264060.html
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    You have got it all wrong, tim.

    Next year the Chancellor will be guaranteeing a maximum of 14.25% of a mortgage loan against repossession in the first seven years of the loan's term. The amount guaranteed falls as the principal is paid down by the mortgagee and 'self-liquidates' after seven years.

    This guarantee scheme will replace the equity sharing scheme to which you refer.

    It is "off balance sheet" (i.e it does not add to public sector borrowing) as guarantees are properly classified in the UK's National Accounts as the provision of insurance. At present contingent liabilities which result from insurance provided are not stated in the books. This is due to change as the supranational accounting standards bodies introduce new policies.

    With regard to shared equity participation (your "handing £120,000 to everyone"), the government purchases an asset (share of equity in a property) worth £120,000 which is matched by a liability (borrowing of £120,000). The net borrowing is therefore zero although I suspect there may be some provision against loss.

    In both the equity participation and guarantee schemes the government charges banks and/or borrowers fees which cover the cost of administering the scheme including a cover of reasonable risk.

    So it is not "all off the books". It simply doesn't increase net public sector borrowing for sound accounting reasons.

    The only valid complaint you might have against the accounting treatment of the schemes is that contingent liabilities on the guarantees are not entered into the books. As stated above, this is beyond the government's current control and will change in due course.

    yeah, but it's still because GO has copped out of bank reform. Perhaps they're hiding bigger problems than we're being told.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10148375/Ministers-insist-no-risk-of-power-cuts-as-officials-look-at-controlled-black-outs-for-factories.html#

    So we won't have power cuts because big industrial users will have their power switched off first.

    I'm going to guess that big industrial users who are told that within a year or two they may no longer have a guaranteed energy supply will offshore.

    So actually the political class don't even need to raise energy prices to the point where the economy collapses they can do it much sooner by telling people in advance that not only is it the plan to give them more expensive energy than anywhere else, on top of that power will be turned on and off randomly as well.

    Result.
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    Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    Polruan said:


    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born

    Or maybe just before. They don't just come along when the stork decides to visit.

    Taking us even further into Bolleaux tenure

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Brooke, that's shocking. I thought German words taken directly from another language were neuter (das Job, das Telefon undsoweiter).
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    The government has posted invitations to tender in respect of the sale of bank shares: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10148674/UKFI-fires-starting-gun-on-sale-of-taxpayers-bank-stakes.html

    If Vince is incapable of banking reform then perhaps the Chancellor can do it for him.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    tim said:

    Polruan said:

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born (you've got 4-5 years to deal with the issue)
    Taking us back to 2008-2009 - when Ed Balls was Schools Secretary......

    And the shortage of places is projected for Sept 2014
    September 2013:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23081631
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    edited June 2013

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    You have got it all wrong, tim.

    Next year the Chancellor will be guaranteeing a maximum of 14.25% of a mortgage loan against repossession in the first seven years of the loan's term. The amount guaranteed falls as the principal is paid down by the mortgagee and 'self-liquidates' after seven years.

    This guarantee scheme will replace the equity sharing scheme to which you refer.

    It is "off balance sheet" (i.e it does not add to public sector borrowing) as guarantees are properly classified in the UK's National Accounts as the provision of insurance. At present contingent liabilities which result from insurance provided are not stated in the books. This is due to change as the supranational accounting standards bodies introduce new policies.

    With regard to shared equity participation (your "handing £120,000 to everyone"), the government purchases an asset (share of equity in a property) worth £120,000 which is matched by a liability (borrowing of £120,000). The net borrowing is therefore zero although I suspect there may be some provision against loss.

    In both the equity participation and guarantee schemes the government charges banks and/or borrowers fees which cover the cost of administering the scheme including a cover of reasonable risk.

    So it is not "all off the books". It simply doesn't increase net public sector borrowing for sound accounting reasons.

    The only valid complaint you might have against the accounting treatment of the schemes is that contingent liabilities on the guarantees are not entered into the books. As stated above, this is beyond the government's current control and will change in due course.

    yeah, but it's still because GO has copped out of bank reform. Perhaps they're hiding bigger problems than we're being told.
    In the latest bout of hysteria on zerohedge it was actually the French banks that came off worse on the ratios of lending to capital. The British banks had made considerable progress compared to where they were a few years ago.

    As I have just posted Osborne is now inviting tenders for advice in relation to the sale of bank shares. Hopefully this advice will be to break these leviathons back into smaller, not too big to fail pieces and give the opportunity for several new players to enter the market with new capital.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Mr. Brooke, that's shocking. I thought German words taken directly from another language were neuter (das Job, das Telefon undsoweiter).


    me too but that's what FAZ is quoting. German has gone a bit haywire recently with new grammar and spelling. The dear old ß is getting caned so we now get words with triple sss which just look weird. Needless to say there's a bit of a backlash.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,057
    edited June 2013
    DavidL said:


    As I have just posted Osborne is now inviting tenders for advice in relation to the sale of bank shares. Hopefully this advice will be to break these leviathons back into smaller, not too big to fail pieces and give the opportunity for several new players to enter the market with new capital.

    Agreed. It's rather handy that both leviathans contain plenty of viable sub-brands already.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    You have got it all wrong, tim.

    Next year the Chancellor will be guaranteeing a maximum of 14.25% of a mortgage loan against repossession in the first seven years of the loan's term. The amount guaranteed falls as the principal is paid down by the mortgagee and 'self-liquidates' after seven years.

    This guarantee scheme will replace the equity sharing scheme to which you refer.

    It is "off balance sheet" (i.e it does not add to public sector borrowing) as guarantees are properly classified in the UK's National Accounts as the provision of insurance. At present contingent liabilities which result from insurance provided are not stated in the books. This is due to change as the supranational accounting standards bodies introduce new policies.

    With regard to shared equity participation (your "handing £120,000 to everyone"), the government purchases an asset (share of equity in a property) worth £120,000 which is matched by a liability (borrowing of £120,000). The net borrowing is therefore zero although I suspect there may be some provision against loss.

    In both the equity participation and guarantee schemes the government charges banks and/or borrowers fees which cover the cost of administering the scheme including a cover of reasonable risk.

    So it is not "all off the books". It simply doesn't increase net public sector borrowing for sound accounting reasons.

    The only valid complaint you might have against the accounting treatment of the schemes is that contingent liabilities on the guarantees are not entered into the books. As stated above, this is beyond the government's current control and will change in due course.

    yeah, but it's still because GO has copped out of bank reform. Perhaps they're hiding bigger problems than we're being told.
    In the latest bout of hysteria on zerohedge it was actually the French banks that came off worse on the ratios of lending to capital. The British banks had made considerable progress compared to where they were a few years ago.

    As I have just posted Osborne is now inviting tenders for advice in relation to the sale of bank shares. Hopefully this advice will be to break these leviathons back into smaller, not too big to fail pieces and give the opportunity for several new players to enter the market with new capital.
    I sincerely hope he does break the giants up, the UK banking sector lost a lot of it's players in the 90s and 00s and I don't think we're better off for it.

    I'd rather see him introduce a few more mutuals into the mix as well. If nothing else they kept the big guys relatively clean.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2013

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/10148375/Ministers-insist-no-risk-of-power-cuts-as-officials-look-at-controlled-black-outs-for-factories.html#
    And if you want to know the real scale of the govts failure on building and infrastructure, and why Henry's piece in unarguably correct, then ponder the fact that in a desperate attempt to revive the building industry a Tory Chancellor will next year start handing £120,000 to everyone wishing to remortgage a £600,000 house with a state subsidised mortgage.
    And it's all off the books.

    You have got it all wrong, tim.

    Next year the Chancellor will be guaranteeing a maximum of 14.25% of a mortgage loan against repossession in the first seven years of the loan's term. The amount guaranteed falls as the principal is paid down by the mortgagee and 'self-liquidates' after seven years.

    This guarantee scheme will replace the equity sharing scheme to which you refer.

    It is "off balance sheet" (i.e it does not add to public sector borrowing) as guarantees are properly classified in the UK's National Accounts as the provision of insurance. At present contingent liabilities which result from insurance provided are not stated in the books. This is due to change as the supranational accounting standards bodies introduce new policies.

    With regard to shared equity participation (your "handing £120,000 to everyone"), the government purchases an asset (share of equity in a property) worth £120,000 which is matched by a liability (borrowing of £120,000). The net borrowing is therefore zero although I suspect there may be some provision against loss.

    In both the equity participation and guarantee schemes the government charges banks and/or borrowers fees which cover the cost of administering the scheme including a cover of reasonable risk.

    So it is not "all off the books". It simply doesn't increase net public sector borrowing for sound accounting reasons.

    The only valid complaint you might have against the accounting treatment of the schemes is that contingent liabilities on the guarantees are not entered into the books. As stated above, this is beyond the government's current control and will change in due course.

    yeah, but it's still because GO has copped out of bank reform. Perhaps they're hiding bigger problems than we're being told.
    Copping out of bank reform is not a fair criticism, Mr. Brooke.

    Banking sector reform started with Darling recapitalising the banks so that there were 'sufficient' shareholder funds to absorb loss in the event of another financial crisis. Brown and Darling pumped £85 billion of taxpayer's funds into bank shares. Even this amount did not cover the risks being undertaken by the banks, so various regulatory authorities are insisting that more capital is raised. The banks have responded by sale of assets (divesting from non-core businesses), retaining profits to bolster shareholder reserves, reducing new borrowing to avoid further increasing capital requirements etc.

    All this has taken time and it simply would not have been possible for Osborne to have accelerated the process without pumping further massive amounts of taxpayer funds into bank equity.

    The Funding for Lending Schemes and housing support measures (and other QE type measures from the BoE) are temporary measures designed to enable the banks to continue new lending at the same time as they are rebuilding their balance sheets.

    The Lloyds Group is near exit from emergency government intervention but the RBoS Group will still require interventionary support for some time. George Osborne has accepted, with hindsight, that it would probably have been better to have split up RBoS Group at the time of the initial bailout and is now looking urgently at whether such a split (into a 'good bank' and 'bad bank') would accelerate its resolution. Decisions due in autumn.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Polruan said:

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born (you've got 4-5 years to deal with the issue)
    Taking us back to 2008-2009 - when Ed Balls was Schools Secretary......
    Gove has been education secretary for more than three years. Lord knows I'm no fan of Ed Balls, but if Gove cannot deal with 1 year old kids in known numbers in 2010 becoming 4 year old kids needing Primary school places in 2013, then he has clearly been incompetent for the last three years.

    There comes a point when you cannot blame your predecessors any longer. I'd say three years was long enough to prepare primary school places.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990
    Oh no!

    A politician using his kids to make a political point.

    Wait for Tim to wail and gnash his teeth...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349927/Miliband-reveals-fears-sons-aged-access-porn-smartphones.html

    Oh, hang on.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    This government still does not believe in infrastructure spending. This announcement, Osborne thinks, is a trap for Labour. Not realising Labour would love this trap !
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    edited June 2013
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Attitudes have changed since 2010 - back then, the focus of debate was purely on cuts and many argued that the reduction in the deficit should be achieved wholly through cutting expenditure with no tax rises at all.

    That really is nonsense. In the June 2010 emergency budget there were a whole series of tax increases central of which was the increase in VAT from 17.5% to 20% with effect from January 2011. In the early days, inevitably, tax increases played a much larger role in reducing the deficit than spending cuts.

    The inability of the Coalition to address spending without complex legislation reducing the mountain of entitlements then in existence inevitably meant that discretionary spending (such as infrastructure) was disproportionately hit. This was unfortunate but we were where the worst government in my lifetime had left us.

    Sorry not sure how I did this but the first paragraph was stodge's and the next 2 my reply.

    I'm not sure either but what you clearly failed to do was read what I actually said. "The focus of debate" were the key words - a lot of people argued for no tax rises (even tax cuts) with the whole weight of deficit reduction to come from spending cuts.

    Osborne, if memory serves, said that the reduction of every £ in deficit would be predicated on 83p coming from spending cuts and 17p from tax rises.

    On the issue of fracking, I noted the comment a couple of days that Conservatives who opposed wind turbines on aesthetic grounds seemed quite comfortable to see the vistas of England disfigured by shale gas drilling platforms.

    I'm fairly ignorant on this issue - I appreciate how useful shale gas might be but can we produce oil from it? If not, it's a help but we'll still be dependent on oil supplies from elsewhere.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    An uncharacteristically cheery Jeremy Warner:

    "The criticism often leveled at QE is that it has caused yields to be lower than they would otherwise have been, yet it is surprisingly hard to find real evidence of this. To the contrary, the yield on ten year French bonds is actually lower than it is on their UK equivalent, even though France has had no QE and its economy is manifestly in even worse shape than ours. This latter perception tells the whole story; French bond yields are lower because investors think its economic prospects so poor.

    But the point is that if rising yields point to stronger nominal GDP growth, then the negative consequences of these yields for the public finances will be more than cancelled out by the higher revenues a growing economy will deliver.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100025034/the-bond-market-bubble-is-deflating-but-in-a-good-way/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited June 2013
    tim said:

    I take it by the paucity of PB Tories prepared to say anything other than "it's not the Governments fault" that they all agree with Henry's argument that it's too late for them now on infrastructure?

    Not at all.

    It's good government. Whether or not they will get any political benefit from it is immaterial.

    But you are more focused on what is good for your tribal interest than what is good for the nation as a whole
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    tim said:

    I take it by the paucity of PB Tories prepared to say anything other than "it's not the Governments fault" that they all agree with Henry's argument that it's too late for them now on infrastructure?

    tim - if we maintain Labour's record for blaming Thatcher we've got at least another 20 years of blaming the previous government!

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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    surbiton said:

    This government still does not believe in infrastructure spending.

    #

    The 150bn capital expenditure of the government between 2010 and 2013 must have all been part of my imagination then?

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,057

    Oh no!

    A politician using his kids to make a political point.

    Wait for Tim to wail and gnash his teeth...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349927/Miliband-reveals-fears-sons-aged-access-porn-smartphones.html

    Oh, hang on.

    That sounds like a spectacularly misjudged intervention. Everyone's first reaction is to ask why his 2 and 4 year olds would be using smartphones. It just makes Miliband look weird.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited June 2013
    @ Avery

    the banking crisis started in 2008, by 2015 we still won't have a viable competitive market. Just how long do you think it should take ? And all the time the sector remains dysfunctional while commercial and retail credit don't work, we have HMG wheezes to imitate what the market should be doing.

    What with your ever excellent boy chancellor and the sage of banking in the Coalition whatever could be holding things up ?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    But the point is that if rising yields point to stronger nominal GDP growth

    So Osborne was wrong to boast about the low yields we had in recent times? They were just a consequence of his inability to deliver growth.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    Neil said:


    But the point is that if rising yields point to stronger nominal GDP growth

    So Osborne was wrong to boast about the low yields we had in recent times? They were just a consequence of his inability to deliver growth.
    I think you missed the 'if' in there Neil.....

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2013

    @ Avery

    the banking crisis started in 2008, by 2015 we still won't have a viable competitive market. Just how long do you think it should take ? And all the time the sector remains dysfunctional while commercial and retail credit don't work, we have HMG wheezes to imitate what the market should be doing.

    What with your ever excellent boy chancellor and the sage of banking in the Coalition whatever could be holding things up ?

    Patience, Mr. Brooke, patience.

    Rome wasn't built in a day.

    Although Gibbon would have been impressed by the speed with which Rome declined under the 13 years of Labour misrule.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268

    Oh no!

    A politician using his kids to make a political point.

    Wait for Tim to wail and gnash his teeth...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349927/Miliband-reveals-fears-sons-aged-access-porn-smartphones.html

    Oh, hang on.

    The problem is that the picture of Ed in the middle of that article with his son on his shoulders is probably the best picture I have ever seen of him. He looks...well, human and vaguely normal.

    Children can do this for a lot of men which is why there is such a temptation on the part of our fairly odd lords and masters to use them in this way.

    That said, his sons are remarkably precocious if they are into porn at their ages. Maybe not the best example unless Dad...no I won't go there.

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    I think you missed the 'if' in there Neil.....

    Not at all, I was just enjoying taking the line of argument being deployed to a logical conclusion.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Oh no!

    A politician using his kids to make a political point.

    Wait for Tim to wail and gnash his teeth...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2349927/Miliband-reveals-fears-sons-aged-access-porn-smartphones.html

    Oh, hang on.

    That sounds like a spectacularly misjudged intervention. Everyone's first reaction is to ask why his 2 and 4 year olds would be using smartphones. It just makes Miliband look weird.
    Well, most parents I know with iPhones have them fully loaded with games for 2 year olds up - watch how kids are entertained in restaurants these days. An iPhone and a new game buys you at least half an hour. They're scarily intuitive for small children, my daughter managed to unlock someone's iPhone when she was 10 months old, just by looking at the moving arrow and following it.

    I guess you must be an Android user...

    Accessing porn would be slightly more challenging for children who can't yet write, and therefore use Google. Do you think he's worrying about his search history...?
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    Polruan said:

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born (you've got 4-5 years to deal with the issue)
    Taking us back to 2008-2009 - when Ed Balls was Schools Secretary......

    Yes, and of course at that time the government had a plan to do something about it. It was called the Primary Capital Programme, which is rather less well known than the Building Schools for the Future umbrella. But this was focussed on primary schools, with a clear remit to respond to changes in population by providing new primary school places as well as improving school infrastructure. This was to be supported by significant funding starting at a relatively low level in 2008/9 but building to a peak in 2010/11 to ensure places available by now.

    What happened when the new government came in - well they scrapped it.

    To suggest that somehow the previous government weren't planning for the increase in numbers entering reception classes now is just plain wrong. But even if they weren't the government has had 3 years to sort this out and suddenly appears to have realised it needs quarter of a million new places in 8 weeks time.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Neil said:


    But the point is that if rising yields point to stronger nominal GDP growth

    So Osborne was wrong to boast about the low yields we had in recent times? They were just a consequence of his inability to deliver growth.
    It's always simplistic to focus on a single factor for bond yields.

    Yields have been artificially depressed over the last few years by the flight to safety and by QE demand.

    Where Osborne deserves credit is we were perceived as the best of a bad lot for investors. Up there with Germany (the US has additional benefits from being the global base currency). Certainly better than France and other comparable countries.

    That yields are now moving up across the board isn't Osborne's fault. One hopes it is a belief that the economy is improving; one fears that it is jsut a product of QE coming to an end. So long as we remain relatively better than comparable countries we are doing ok.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    "But in this town you have to be ready for an ambush at any time, and that means lock and load and have one up the spout, and be ready for it."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23096383
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    AveryLP said:

    @ Avery

    the banking crisis started in 2008, by 2015 we still won't have a viable competitive market. Just how long do you think it should take ? And all the time the sector remains dysfunctional while commercial and retail credit don't work, we have HMG wheezes to imitate what the market should be doing.

    What with your ever excellent boy chancellor and the sage of banking in the Coalition whatever could be holding things up ?

    Patience, Mr. Brooke, patience.

    Rome wasn't built in a day.

    Although Gibbon would have been impressed by the speed with which Rome declined under the 13 years of Labour misrule.


    As one gets older and one's time available shortens patience is more of a precious commodity. My vicar offers me jam tomorrow too, but he's got a better chance of delivering.

    As for Gibbon wasn't that Constantiople ? It went on for 1,000 years, which is about the same timeframe as GO's bank shake up ;-).
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    edited June 2013
    Neil said:


    But the point is that if rising yields point to stronger nominal GDP growth

    So Osborne was wrong to boast about the low yields we had in recent times? They were just a consequence of his inability to deliver growth.
    Not just his failure in fairness. Bonds paying negative rates of interest in real terms have looked attractive in most of the western world only given the lack of the alternatives.

    Warner's point, and it is a good one, is that we don't seem to have got any obvious advantage from QE compared to France who has not had that policy. I think he fails to recognise that our deficit was much worse than theirs and still is albeit the underlying debt situation was similar. I suspect but for QE we would have been nearer Spain or Italy's levels of payment at considerable cost to the Treasury (ie us).

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Charles said:


    It's always simplistic to focus on a single factor for bond yields.

    No sh*t! So it isnt all about Osborne's dynamic recovery?!
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Polruan said:


    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born

    Or maybe just before. They don't just come along when the stork decides to visit.

    Taking us even further into Bolleaux tenure

    Well, I think the relevant stat is live births, and I think it takes about 6 months for stats to be collated, but I take your point. Key thing is that you have at least 3.5 years to ensure that the primary school provision at reception age in an area is about right. If only Labour had seen fit to put in place a school building programme which was still current in early 2010, then the coalition could have just maintained it to sort out any problems in 2013...
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited June 2013

    @ Avery

    the banking crisis started in 2008, by 2015 we still won't have a viable competitive market. Just how long do you think it should take ? And all the time the sector remains dysfunctional while commercial and retail credit don't work, we have HMG wheezes to imitate what the market should be doing.

    They've got no intention of fixing it. The man from del banking lobby say no.

    edit: Nor have Labour either obviously and for the same reason.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,652
    JonathanD said:

    " lock and load and have one up the spout, and be ready for it."

    Someone tweeted 'Is that 'Carry on Brussels' or a 'Gay Porn Movie'?

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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,978
    edited June 2013
    Financier said:

    FPT

    @taffys

    'Any thoughts on why Wales appears to have made such a horlicks of devolution while Scotland hasn't?

    Four reasons leap to mind: aspiration, competence, capability and corporate governance.

    Aspiration is almost an unknown word. In education average is viewed as OK - no real need to do better, and that culture goes across much of the public sector. I have heard of children being discouraged to apply for the top universities - almost an inferiority complex. Indeed, the Welsh feel that all is right if they beat England at rugby and mentally are still fighting the battles of the Middle Ages. There is a tremendous amount of inward looking and feeling regarding what the world can do for Wales, rather than what Wales can do for the world - they have to realise that they are part of the global society and as such are competing for jobs and lifestyle.

    This lack of aspiration (and skill sets) leads to a lack of competence. European grants have been wasted on useless bureaucracy instead of infrastructure projects - like Spain and Ireland.

    Capability is deficient at many levels and really many of the Assembly members are not as capable as many parish councilors. The same applies to the Welsh Civil service.

    Corporate governance is very weak and scrutiny almost minimal. Massive sums of money (£millions) have been found to be fraudulently used by grant receiving pseudo-public sector organisations or charities.

    Need I say more?

    I wonder, Financier, if part of this is the effect of the Depression of the 20's-30's. N=1 I know all about, but I suspect my family's experience may be typical. I have a picture, taken I would think about 1925 or so, of my grandfather, and his four brothers, all South Welsh colliers, and all born 1890-1915. I haven't traced all of their descendants; one brother "emigrated" to Kent when the coalfield there was opened up, and touch was lost, but NONE of those I know about still live in South Wales; however most of the grandchildren of those men have, or had jobs requiring a higher than average level of academic ability.
    In the 40-50's when I was young and living in S Essex, and my father's teacher friends came to the house, I formed the impression that one could have constructed quite a competent rugby team from those with South Welsh origins!

    If the only option for the bright and ambitious is to emigrate, what happens to the society they leave behind?

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    Polruan said:

    @Poluran - this was in the context of number of school places needed - with ±100,000 extra babies with Polish mothers - from a standing start - thats something the last Labour government should have reacted to when immigration from Poland (and others) turned out much higher than anticipated. The issue is not 'fertility rates' - which tim tries to divert the discussion onto - but the absolute number of babies ultimately requiring school places.

    Either way, the point where you react is surely when the babies are born (you've got 4-5 years to deal with the issue)
    Taking us back to 2008-2009 - when Ed Balls was Schools Secretary......
    Gove has been education secretary for more than three years. Lord knows I'm no fan of Ed Balls, but if Gove cannot deal with 1 year old kids in known numbers in 2010 becoming 4 year old kids needing Primary school places in 2013, then he has clearly been incompetent for the last three years.

    There comes a point when you cannot blame your predecessors any longer. I'd say three years was long enough to prepare primary school places.
    Particularly when one of your very first actions as minister was to scrap the very programme your predecessor had put in place to deal with the problem.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Attitudes have changed since 2010 - back then, the focus of debate was purely on cuts and many argued that the reduction in the deficit should be achieved wholly through cutting expenditure with no tax rises at all.

    That really is nonsense. In the June 2010 emergency budget there were a whole series of tax increases central of which was the increase in VAT from 17.5% to 20% with effect from January 2011. In the early days, inevitably, tax increases played a much larger role in reducing the deficit than spending cuts.

    The inability of the Coalition to address spending without complex legislation reducing the mountain of entitlements then in existence inevitably meant that discretionary spending (such as infrastructure) was disproportionately hit. This was unfortunate but we were where the worst government in my lifetime had left us.

    Sorry not sure how I did this but the first paragraph was stodge's and the next 2 my reply.


    I'm fairly ignorant on this issue - I appreciate how useful shale gas might be but can we produce oil from it? If not, it's a help but we'll still be dependent on oil supplies from elsewhere.
    While looking through some long term stats on oil and gas production I noted that there was a fairly long run of shale oil production in the UK from the late 19th century through to the 1960s. It didn't compare in size to the offshore production rates from the mid 1970s but it was certainly enough to justify sustained private sector investment.

    Would be interesting to hear from Richard Tyndall on this as all I know about it is from the bare production statistics.

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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417
    Anyone got any thoughts on the Greens keeping their Brighton seat next election. Oddschecker have them at slightly less than evens . Tempted to back Labour . The greens seem to be in a complete mess at the council there with the national party opposing the (only I think?) green led council in its cuts. Shows you how fluffy thoughts have tobe comprimised when actually running something I suppose but will it be enough to oust Dr Lucas?
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