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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sanders runs Hillary pretty close in latest round of primar

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited March 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sanders runs Hillary pretty close in latest round of primaries

The results from the latest three primaries are almost all in with victories for Clinton and Trump in the biggest, Arizona, and for Cruz and Sanders in Utah.

Read the full story here


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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    First!
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    FPT (and second?)
    glw said:

    Polruan said:

    1) SCOTTISH PEOPLE!!! IN CHARGE OF ENGLAND!!! THAT CAN"T BE RIGHT!!!!?!!
    2) That Ed Miliband's a bit weird isn't he? How can you trust anyone who stabs his brother?

    and a distant

    3) Maybe I should be worried about the economy

    The Tories won it on the first two, and Cameron will win it the same way this time.

    You will have to explain how 1 can work for Cameron this time around. Surely the last thing he wants is to make the referendum about sovereignty and self-rule. That line of approach works much better for Leave pointing to the many democractic inadequacies of the EU.

    I didn't mean it quite that literally. This time it's probably

    1) BUYING NICE STUFF CHEAP - YOU KNOW THAT INTERNATIONAL TRADE IS ALL DOWN TO THE EU RIGHT??
    2) CHEAPS FLIGHTS TO SOMEWHERE SUNNY

    and

    3) TERRORISM. Gosh, the world's a dangerous place, isn't it? Are you sure we can really look after ourselves?

    I don't want to kick off the normal discussion about whether we are better equipped to protect ourselves from terrorism in or out of the EU, but I'm fairly sure that Cameron is the more skilled of the players at using the general sense of fear caused by the Brussels attacks and other events to further his cause.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    First!

    Nice pic :)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @aljwhite: All of these dogs are core group. https://t.co/ovxIzhyqE1

    @aljwhite: Taylor Swift's squad is "neutral but not hostile." https://t.co/OzZiAZK4fs
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: Re @SamCoatesTimes' great story, one Lab MP who made the 'core group negative' list rather than the hostile one says he plans to appeal ..
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Polruan said:

    I don't want to kick off the normal discussion about whether we are better equipped to protect ourselves from terrorism in or out of the EU, but I'm fairly sure that Cameron is the more skilled of the players at using the general sense of fear caused by the Brussels attacks and other events to further his cause.

    You have more faith in Cameron's abilities than I do then, in his position I would avoid linking the two issues.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Paul Brand ITV
    Irony of @SamCoatesTimes's excellent leaked list of Labour's 'core' MPs is many of 'core +' group berate him to me https://t.co/984uuhLsLX
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT @Casino_Royale said:
    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249
    FPT

    Received a BSE leaflet through the door, looked like one from a pizza place, all primary colours, telling me how jobs, wealth, you name it would be better/increased/etc by staying in. Totally b**sh*t stats no doubt.

    Pathetic.

    If that is the level of debate god help us. Then again, goodness only knows what the Leave one will look like; presumably edged in black.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    Received a BSE leaflet through the door, looked like one from a pizza place, all primary colours, telling me how jobs, wealth, you name it would be better/increased/etc by staying in. Totally b**sh*t stats no doubt.

    Pathetic.

    If that is the level of debate god help us. Then again, goodness only knows what the Leave one will look like; presumably edged in black.

    At least BSE are getting their leaflets out
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe

    Is Tintin as racist as Thomas the Tank Engine, or Postman Pat?
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    AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27
    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Sanders could also win Alaska, Hawaii and Washington on Saturday and then Wisconsin at the beginning of April. By contrast Trump likely wins Wisconsin and may not lose another state. Both Trump and Hillary will seek to seal the nomination with victories in the big Northeast states at the end of April
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    edited March 2016
    Arizona is a Republican state, but the votes in the primary indicate that it could be close if the non-Trump Republicans stay hone or worse (for Trump) cross over.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    If those pictures were shown as widely as a drowned child, I wonder what the political consequences would be.
    AndrewD said:

    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    Scott_P said:

    First!

    Nice pic :)
    Too good to resist! I wonder if the Beige Tories will like it?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    AndrewD said:

    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.

    AndrewD said:

    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.

    We already are bombing them although maybe not yet carpet bombing
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Charles said:

    FPT @Casino_Royale said:

    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story



    To all intents and purposes there is no limit on the amount of booze and fags you can bring back from the EU. Duty free is very different. From memory it's something like a bottle of whisky, five bottles of wine, 24 beers and 200 ciggies.
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    AndrewD said:

    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.

    That'll work. Or not.

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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2016
    Just browsing the Opinium tables.

    Leave has an EIGHTEEN point lead among 45+.

    The base weightings seem to favour Remain as well with the under 35s over-represented compared to normal turnout.

    http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/sites/ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/files/op6309_guardian_europe_uncovered_-_tables_website_0.pdf

    ICM seem to have published the wrong tables.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    On topic, and bearing in mind I'm something of an amateur on the US process, please could someone knowledgable explain the following?

    On the Democratic side of last night's primaries the tenor of the press coverage is along the lines of "Clinton wins Arizona to march onwards although Sanders picks up consolation prizes in Utah and Idaho."

    But all three states are proportionate delegate allocation, 75/33/23 respectively. Plugging in the vote share in the thread header I get to HC 56 / BS 75 (some rounding assumptions in getting to those numbers). On that basis Sanders has improved his position with delegates, and if we're looking to the momentum narrative, won two states to one. Yet the headlines call it for HRC when (to coin a phrase) the obvious call is BS.

    What have I missed?
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Foxgoose
    The penny finally starts to drop for the Belgian Interior Minister. https://t.co/1DY84qkrPY
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Miss Plato, that's one of the reasons that picture was so wrong to splash across the media. They don't do it for ISIS/Daesh victims, whether in overseas terrorism or in Syrian/Iraqi torture and execution.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249
    HYUFD said:

    AndrewD said:

    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.

    AndrewD said:

    One of the witnesses in Brussells saw a badly burned baby and a burned pregnant woman. Its time our government stopped wimping about and start proper retribution here. We should carpet bomb Raqqa if necessary.

    We already are bombing them although maybe not yet carpet bombing
    We killed 200 people at a terrorist training camp yesterday. I won't put terrorist training camp in quotes, as the Graun did, but neither do I think that all of the 200 people were fighters.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2016
    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Wowzer.
    chestnut said:

    Just browsing the Opinium tables.

    Leave has an EIGHTEEN point lead among 45+.

    The base weightings seem to favour Remain as well with the under 35s over-represented compared to normal turnout.

    http://ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/sites/ourinsight.opinium.co.uk/files/op6309_guardian_europe_uncovered_-_tables_website_0.pdf

    ICM seem to have published the wrong tables.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    chestnut said:

    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33

    There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win.

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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    glw said:

    Polruan said:

    I don't want to kick off the normal discussion about whether we are better equipped to protect ourselves from terrorism in or out of the EU, but I'm fairly sure that Cameron is the more skilled of the players at using the general sense of fear caused by the Brussels attacks and other events to further his cause.

    You have more faith in Cameron's abilities than I do then, in his position I would avoid linking the two issues.
    That's what dog whistles are for, right?

    Generalised unease drives people to vote for the status quo. The trick is not to make anything so specific that it's susceptible to an argument on the underlying logic of the threat which could demonstrate that actually the status quo is more dangerous. Or at least make sure that's so far down the line from initial claim, counter claim, and smear of "playing politics with this issue" that everyone except the nerds has lost interest in the discussion.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    chestnut said:

    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33

    There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win.

    There are going for to be a lot if they lose too. So what?
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    One thing that's really struck me this time is how tiresome and empty all the faux solidarity is.

    I scroll passed stories about cartoons, projections of flags, blah de blah hashtags. And It's Nothing To Do With Islam commentary.

    Enough already.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :smiley:

    Rt Honorable John
    I've run Google Translate through Corbyns ranking of Labour MPs. https://t.co/m09ZiJT3Yu
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    chestnut said:

    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33

    There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win.

    There are going for to be a lot if they lose too. So what?
    And it is precisely their anger which repels me. I can't possibly be alone in that, can I?

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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited March 2016

    One thing that's really struck me this time is how tiresome and empty all the faux solidarity is.

    I scroll passed stories about cartoons, projections of flags, blah de blah hashtags. And It's Nothing To Do With Islam commentary.

    Enough already.

    As I said yesterday the support for free speech and Charlie Hebdo didn't last very long. They've gotten stick several times since last year's attack.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914

    chestnut said:

    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33

    There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win.

    There are going for to be a lot if they lose too. So what?

    Just commenting that they are not going to get what they want from a vote to Leave, that's all.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PeterMannionMP: Corbyn's #loyaltylist:
    Heroes of the People's Revolution 19;
    Outer cadre 56;
    Useful Idiots 72;
    Running dogs 49;
    Imperialist devils 36.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited March 2016
    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Polruan said:

    glw said:

    Polruan said:

    I don't want to kick off the normal discussion about whether we are better equipped to protect ourselves from terrorism in or out of the EU, but I'm fairly sure that Cameron is the more skilled of the players at using the general sense of fear caused by the Brussels attacks and other events to further his cause.

    You have more faith in Cameron's abilities than I do then, in his position I would avoid linking the two issues.
    That's what dog whistles are for, right?

    Generalised unease drives people to vote for the status quo. The trick is not to make anything so specific that it's susceptible to an argument on the underlying logic of the threat which could demonstrate that actually the status quo is more dangerous. Or at least make sure that's so far down the line from initial claim, counter claim, and smear of "playing politics with this issue" that everyone except the nerds has lost interest in the discussion.

    Do you think that generalised unease about immigration will drive people to vote for the status quo? That looks to me like a huge calling card for Leave. It's not something that can or will be delivered on, but it is very strong card to play to win the referendum itself.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'As I said yesterday the support for free speech and Charlie Hebdo didn't last very long. They've gotten stick several times since last year's attack.'

    Well crying and lighting candles is easy. Actually doing something concrete to stamp out this murderous extremism is not.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Arizona:

    Rubio, Marco A. 70,499 13.46%
    Kasich, John Richard 52,450 10.02%

    Beaten by a non runner. How utterly humiliating for Kasich.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Press Gazette
    The Sun wins front page of the year at the Society of Press Awards for 'BUSTED' https://t.co/SaEGlCdwjI https://t.co/4sjPMDjU9s
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I also see that the single European intelligence agency drum is being beaten this morning. Awful, awful idea. It will just put the costs and burdens of keeping the continent safe on the few willing nations like the UK and France, while Belgium, Germany, Spain and others will just free load.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.
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    AndrewDAndrewD Posts: 27

    chestnut said:

    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33

    There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win.

    If our political elite remain in the EEA we will just have to keep voting UKIP until we leave that too.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    MaxPB said:

    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.

    There probably is some truth in the unofficial truce story. The same kind of thing applied in the UK in the early 90s - hence the term Londonistan.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. D, it's a valid point that UKIP could benefit from such a scenario.

    Mind you, if they were led by someone other than Farage they'd be in a better place.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Mind-boggling statistic of the week...
    "In addition [to the 40 RNC delegates] , the [Utah] Precinct Caucuses elect approximately 4,000 delegates to the County and State Conventions"
    http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/UT-R

    4000?
    To do what, exactly?
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Ed West
    NUS delegates pass a motion that blames “cis gay men” for “misogyny, transphobia, racism and biphobia”. https://t.co/J0pVwr15Sz
    NUS tells LGBT societies to abolish gay men’s reps because ‘they don’t face oppression’
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    Received a BSE leaflet through the door, looked like one from a pizza place, all primary colours, telling me how jobs, wealth, you name it would be better/increased/etc by staying in. Totally b**sh*t stats no doubt.

    Pathetic.

    If that is the level of debate god help us. Then again, goodness only knows what the Leave one will look like; presumably edged in black.

    I hadn't thought about a pizza leaflet, but it does sum it up well.

    From a design perspective the main pages looks very crowded and busy - nothing jumps out at me.

    Key messages (on the outside):

    [On a black background] Leaving Europe would be a leap in the dark / Jobs, prices, worker's rights and national security would be at risk if we left

    [On a red background] More jobs / lower prices. Your family is better off with Britain in Europe.

    Seems pretty marginal in terms of positive claims (they claim "lower prices" because "it is cheaper to trade with Europe"); the jobs claim isn't stacked up specifically but they do say "over 200,000 UK businesses trade with the UK, helping them grow and create jobs in the UK".

    On the negative claims, they quote Hugh Orde talking about the European Arrest Warrant and claiming that it helped bring one of the 7/2005 London bombers to justice (as if extradition/international cooperation wouldn't have worked). On jobs they quote the 200 business chiefs from the Times; they quote the Telegraph on military chiefs saying we are at risk from Isil and Russia; and they quote the AA saying petrol prices could go up 19p.

    Doesn't feel particularly strong, overall, although I admit to being someone jaundiced.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    Sean_F said:

    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe

    Is Tintin as racist as Thomas the Tank Engine, or Postman Pat?
    Seriously, how is Postman Pat racist?

    The black and white cat?
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    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.

    Perhaps we need to choose between democracy and freedom from terrorism. ( I genuinely don't know, or even know how to make the assessment.)

    It matters not if 999 Muslims out of a thousand are as appalled as anyone else by such attacks - the terrorists don't need that many recruits, after all.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    As voting concludes it would appear that Kiwis have opted to retain the current flag by a significant majority :

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/23/new-zealand-flag-change-as-voting-ends-poll-shows-little-hope-for-new-design
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    edited March 2016
    Polruan said:

    On topic, and bearing in mind I'm something of an amateur on the US process, please could someone knowledgable explain the following?

    On the Democratic side of last night's primaries the tenor of the press coverage is along the lines of "Clinton wins Arizona to march onwards although Sanders picks up consolation prizes in Utah and Idaho."

    But all three states are proportionate delegate allocation, 75/33/23 respectively. Plugging in the vote share in the thread header I get to HC 56 / BS 75 (some rounding assumptions in getting to those numbers). On that basis Sanders has improved his position with delegates, and if we're looking to the momentum narrative, won two states to one. Yet the headlines call it for HRC when (to coin a phrase) the obvious call is BS.

    What have I missed?

    That Clinton is leading nearly 2-1 including superdelegates. It's like hitting a boundary when you're 200 runs behind with 10 overs left - satisfying, but not enough.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Peter Mannion MP
    Also says something for the competence of the Labour leadership that their own list manages to omit 17 Labour MPs. #loyaltylist
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    FPT @Casino_Royale said:

    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story

    To all intents and purposes there is no limit on the amount of booze and fags you can bring back from the EU. Duty free is very different. From memory it's something like a bottle of whisky, five bottles of wine, 24 beers and 200 ciggies.


    Yes, although technically EU is for personal consumption. I'm not convinced that France would like to see it's hypermarches in Calais closed down, but either way the impact will be small beer (sorry)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Abroad, we can't protect our freedoms by ceding them in the name of security.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913

    chestnut said:

    Immigration outweighs EU trade benefits +33

    There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win.

    Absolutely. Millions are going to voting on a false prospectus. Leave's problems will start the day they win the referendum. Apart from the little difficulty over immigration they are going to have to deliver on all the things that they claim will suddenly improve once we are out of the EU.

    In some quarters the EU has been blamed for years for just about every problem we have. If they win it will be very gratifying watching how it unfolds. Although I will be voting Remain a part of me would like to see the Leavers have to put their money where their mouths are for once.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @Casino_Royale said:

    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story

    To all intents and purposes there is no limit on the amount of booze and fags you can bring back from the EU. Duty free is very different. From memory it's something like a bottle of whisky, five bottles of wine, 24 beers and 200 ciggies.
    Yes, although technically EU is for personal consumption. I'm not convinced that France would like to see it's hypermarches in Calais closed down, but either way the impact will be small beer (sorry)



    Yep, it's not a big one. It will be good news for smugglers though.

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    Mr. Abroad, we can't protect our freedoms by ceding them in the name of security.

    No, we can't. But we might need to in order to protect our lives. How many schools and hospitals are we willing to see destroyed in the name of freedom? A question I can't answer.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.

    What alarmed me most was that the Belgian police were getting their most current information from the UK police (via MI5 and Belgian intelligence) because Belgian intelligence wouldn't give it to them directly...
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    Received a BSE leaflet through the door, looked like one from a pizza place, all primary colours, telling me how jobs, wealth, you name it would be better/increased/etc by staying in. Totally b**sh*t stats no doubt.

    Pathetic.

    If that is the level of debate god help us. Then again, goodness only knows what the Leave one will look like; presumably edged in black.

    At least BSE are getting their leaflets out
    Shooting of ammo before they know the target. And Vote Leave can reply - the last speech is the most important.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    Charles said:

    FPT @Casino_Royale said:

    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story

    To all intents and purposes there is no limit on the amount of booze and fags you can bring back from the EU. Duty free is very different. From memory it's something like a bottle of whisky, five bottles of wine, 24 beers and 200 ciggies.


    Supposed to be a single market, innit?

    So there should be no customs. Ever.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.

    There probably is some truth in the unofficial truce story. The same kind of thing applied in the UK in the early 90s - hence the term Londonistan.

    Have a read of this if you are a subscriber:

    http://beta.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/analysis-how-britain-cracked-down-on-londonistan-v20tvldnq

    Over the last decade or so London has gone from being a terrorist and extremist safe-haven to being extremely hostile to those who seek to harm us. It's one of those policy changes that is extremely under-appreciated.
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Polruan said:

    On topic, and bearing in mind I'm something of an amateur on the US process, please could someone knowledgable explain the following?

    On the Democratic side of last night's primaries the tenor of the press coverage is along the lines of "Clinton wins Arizona to march onwards although Sanders picks up consolation prizes in Utah and Idaho."

    But all three states are proportionate delegate allocation, 75/33/23 respectively. Plugging in the vote share in the thread header I get to HC 56 / BS 75 (some rounding assumptions in getting to those numbers). On that basis Sanders has improved his position with delegates, and if we're looking to the momentum narrative, won two states to one. Yet the headlines call it for HRC when (to coin a phrase) the obvious call is BS.

    What have I missed?

    That Clinton is leading nearly 2-1 including superdelegates. It's like hitting a boundary when you're 200 runs behind with 10 overs left - satisfying, but not enough.
    Thanks. From what I can see of the maths, and assuming that super delegates will have a legitimacy issue if they effectively reverse the public vote, it's rather closer to needing 150 off 10, with wickets in hand, and scoring 15 off the over (maybe for the loss of one wicket). That is to say it's challenging but by no means out of the question.

    Presumably expectation management comes into it too - not sure how these states came out compared with realistic expectations and whether this was over/underperformance for either candidate.
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @SouthamObserver


    'There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win. '


    You keep repeating that week after week,presumably based on your hope that after a Leave vote we will join EFTA, if we are not part of EFTA or EEA we can of course have our own independent immigration policy.

    You already know that but it doesn't fit with project Fear..
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.

    Perhaps we need to choose between democracy and freedom from terrorism. ( I genuinely don't know, or even know how to make the assessment.)

    It matters not if 999 Muslims out of a thousand are as appalled as anyone else by such attacks - the terrorists don't need that many recruits, after all.

    Ben Franklin:

    ”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    MaxPB said:

    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.

    Can't be true.

    Yokel told us last night that any criticisms of the Belgian security services were "entirely incorrect".
  • Options
    LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 651

    One thing that's really struck me this time is how tiresome and empty all the faux solidarity is.

    I scroll passed stories about cartoons, projections of flags, blah de blah hashtags. And It's Nothing To Do With Islam commentary.

    Enough already.

    If we leave the EU, the French won't project the Union flag on to Eiffel Tower if/when we suffer a terrorist atrocity.

  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's an oppressed black cat.

    Sean_F said:

    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe

    Is Tintin as racist as Thomas the Tank Engine, or Postman Pat?
    Seriously, how is Postman Pat racist?

    The black and white cat?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    When we do flyers for work we count on a 1% - 2% conversion rate. Can't see the Remain leaflet - which we got today as well - getting close to 150,000 "buyers", let alone 300,000. Seems like a complete waste of time to me.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I also see that the single European intelligence agency drum is being beaten this morning'

    Well there's a surprise - exactly as I predicted yesterday.

    Obviously the Remain side didn't take on board OGH's admonition not to use yesterday's carnage to make political points :)

    That said,

    'Vote Remain for German and French spies to legally snoop on you and read your emails. For counter-terrorism to be overseen by incompetent and corrupt foreign governments'

    doesn't strike me as a vote winner
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @Casino_Royale said:

    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story

    To all intents and purposes there is no limit on the amount of booze and fags you can bring back from the EU. Duty free is very different. From memory it's something like a bottle of whisky, five bottles of wine, 24 beers and 200 ciggies.
    Yes, although technically EU is for personal consumption. I'm not convinced that France would like to see it's hypermarches in Calais closed down, but either way the impact will be small beer (sorry)

    Yep, it's not a big one. It will be good news for smugglers though.



    We could try cutting duties. And investing in the Outland Revenue.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    FPT @Casino_Royale said:

    Ah, as predicted, they are going for the booze and Britons favourite tipples!
    So the Duty Free arrangements that Chuck Feeney (one of the more impressive people in the world, by the way*) built involving most of the countries in the world will magically cease to exist? Riiiight.

    * He made a little over £1 billion from his business empire. Bought his wife a flat in London and a house in Dublin (£1m each). Bought each of his 3 kids a £1m flat. Gave his wife £10m in cash and each of his kids £1m in cash. Total outlay: £18m. Reckoned that fulfilled his moral obligation to provide for his family, so he gave the other £1 billion away.

    Intriguingly, Atlantic has a Sunset Clause - wouldn't work for me, but an interesting concept. By the time they wind down, they reckon they will have given away $8 billion.

    http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/our-story

    To all intents and purposes there is no limit on the amount of booze and fags you can bring back from the EU. Duty free is very different. From memory it's something like a bottle of whisky, five bottles of wine, 24 beers and 200 ciggies.
    Yes, although technically EU is for personal consumption. I'm not convinced that France would like to see it's hypermarches in Calais closed down, but either way the impact will be small beer (sorry)

    Following by a lot of wine as people will be in very low spirits.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Abroad, must disagree with your fearful approach.

    Terrorism can't be entirely stopped. The idea it can be is a blatant falsehood.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Ed West
    NUS delegates pass a motion that blames “cis gay men” for “misogyny, transphobia, racism and biphobia”. https://t.co/J0pVwr15Sz

    NUS tells LGBT societies to abolish gay men’s reps because ‘they don’t face oppression’
    Like Saturn, the Revolution devours its own children.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :smiley:
    LucyJones said:

    One thing that's really struck me this time is how tiresome and empty all the faux solidarity is.

    I scroll passed stories about cartoons, projections of flags, blah de blah hashtags. And It's Nothing To Do With Islam commentary.

    Enough already.

    If we leave the EU, the French won't project the Union flag on to Eiffel Tower if/when we suffer a terrorist atrocity.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    john_zims said:

    @SouthamObserver


    'There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win. '


    You keep repeating that week after week,presumably based on your hope that after a Leave vote we will join EFTA, if we are not part of EFTA or EEA we can of course have our own independent immigration policy.

    You already know that but it doesn't fit with project Fear..

    It's based on my belief that we will sign up to an EFTA/EEA deal because it will be the Tories doing the Brexit deal and the Tories will want to retain free movement of goods, services and capital.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Sean_F said:

    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe

    Is Tintin as racist as Thomas the Tank Engine, or Postman Pat?
    Seriously, how is Postman Pat racist?

    The black and white cat?
    There were complaints about the absence of black and Asian characters (it's set in the Lake District).
  • Options
    Charles said:

    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.

    Perhaps we need to choose between democracy and freedom from terrorism. ( I genuinely don't know, or even know how to make the assessment.)

    It matters not if 999 Muslims out of a thousand are as appalled as anyone else by such attacks - the terrorists don't need that many recruits, after all.

    Ben Franklin:

    ”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
    I expected some clown to quote that. Franklin owned slaves, you know.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.

    There probably is some truth in the unofficial truce story. The same kind of thing applied in the UK in the early 90s - hence the term Londonistan.

    Have a read of this if you are a subscriber:

    http://beta.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/analysis-how-britain-cracked-down-on-londonistan-v20tvldnq

    Over the last decade or so London has gone from being a terrorist and extremist safe-haven to being extremely hostile to those who seek to harm us. It's one of those policy changes that is extremely under-appreciated.

    Sure - I am just pointing out that an unofficial truce in Brussels is very plausible as it used to apply in London. Presumably the Belgians will now realise they have been very stupid, just as we came to realise it.

  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The Pink News article made my brain ache.
    Sean_F said:

    Ed West
    NUS delegates pass a motion that blames “cis gay men” for “misogyny, transphobia, racism and biphobia”. https://t.co/J0pVwr15Sz

    NUS tells LGBT societies to abolish gay men’s reps because ‘they don’t face oppression’
    Like Saturn, the Revolution devours its own children.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Charles said:

    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.

    Perhaps we need to choose between democracy and freedom from terrorism. ( I genuinely don't know, or even know how to make the assessment.)

    It matters not if 999 Muslims out of a thousand are as appalled as anyone else by such attacks - the terrorists don't need that many recruits, after all.

    Ben Franklin:

    ”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
    I expected some clown to quote that. Franklin owned slaves, you know.

    I don't see how that changes the truth in those words. We should not cower and appease terrorists. We should fight them until we have destroyed them.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    SkyNews
    There are 70 references to Belgium in IS documents obtained by Sky, writes @ramsaysky https://t.co/xjxsUGPRXa https://t.co/PgTzC2zJra
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Excellent article in the Times this morning:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4719481.ece

    "Jihadists have for years ruthlessly exploited the chronic dysfunction at the heart of the Belgian system of governance to use the divided country at the heart of Europe as a base for murderous attacks.

    The story of Belgian counterterrorism is one of miscommunication, rivalry and mistrust that has hampered the response to the nest of terrorists incubated and concentrated in the capital’s Molenbeek district.

    Appalling lapses in co-operation between a dozen different security and police authorities have been exacerbated by similar problems liaising with neighbouring France."

    "Arguments between France and Belgium have been building as evidence of security failures has grown. The Belgian prosecutor’s office said it was angry that the French published the name of a suspect in the Paris attacks, Chakib Akrouh, before the Belgians searched the houses of his relatives.

    There probably is some truth in the unofficial truce story. The same kind of thing applied in the UK in the early 90s - hence the term Londonistan.

    Have a read of this if you are a subscriber:

    http://beta.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/analysis-how-britain-cracked-down-on-londonistan-v20tvldnq

    Over the last decade or so London has gone from being a terrorist and extremist safe-haven to being extremely hostile to those who seek to harm us. It's one of those policy changes that is extremely under-appreciated.

    Sure - I am just pointing out that an unofficial truce in Brussels is very plausible as it used to apply in London. Presumably the Belgians will now realise they have been very stupid, just as we came to realise it.

    Yes, I completely agree. Hopefully they will have a real hard look at this policy, if it exists, and tear it up. Raid all of the known terrorist's homes and those of sympathisers. Ensure that those who return from Syria/Iraq are locked away or, preferably, unable to return.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.

    Perhaps we need to choose between democracy and freedom from terrorism. ( I genuinely don't know, or even know how to make the assessment.)

    It matters not if 999 Muslims out of a thousand are as appalled as anyone else by such attacks - the terrorists don't need that many recruits, after all.

    Ben Franklin:

    ”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
    I expected some clown to quote that. Franklin owned slaves, you know.

    May be some clown will quote it.

    Liberty refers to all free citizens and members of a demos. Clearly our modern views on who are members of the demos have changed in the last 250 years, but it doesn't invalidate the argument.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2016

    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe

    "TinTin in the Congo" is really quite racist (though more in a patronising "africans as children" way rather than malicious). The treatment of animals is the most shocking thing to modern eyes though!

    TinTin and the Blue Lotus (set in 1930s China) depicts the Japanese very badly, but the Chinese as long suffering and courageous. Etc etc.

    Mostly TinTin is a reflection of attitudes of the times, with national stereotypes as the butt of the jokes, but usually affectionately. Many Tin Tin stories show him treating foreigners with courtesey and respect, freeing the african slaves being traffiked by Rastopopolous in The Crab with the Golden Claws for example. Indeed the rapracious villans are white Europeans!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I also hope that whoever takes over the White House next year will do a better job than Obama. I have no doubt Trump will take a much harder line with Saudi Arabia and I think Hillary probably will as well.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SkyNewsEditor: #BREAKING Belgian media reports say suspect Najim Laachraoui has been arrested in Brussels #BrusselsAttacks
  • Options
    trawltrawl Posts: 142
    I've also had the BSE pizza leaflet but yesterday my other half received the Peter Hargreaves letter (leave.eu) which came in the post personally addressed. I didn't get one. Begins "The most important vote in your life!", continues with an explanatory first page, the overleaf lists ten highlighted reasons to leave (the word immigration does not appear, though re-establishing the vital control of our borders is one of the ten), ends with "I beseech you to make a considered decision and vote on 23rd June." Also offers the chance to donate or buy a leave.eu t-shirt.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Sky breaking

    3rd bomber suspect under arrest and in custody
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914

    Dearie me

    Salon
    Tintin’s racist history: This symbol of Brussels solidarity is uncomfortably divisive https://t.co/fo7XH1wu7M https://t.co/eRU5dO3LAe

    "TinTin in the Congo" is really quite racist (though more in a patronising "africans as children" way rather than malicious). The treatment of animals is the most shocking thing to modern eyes though!

    TinTin and the Blue Lotus (set in 1930s China) depicts the Japanese very badly, but the Chinese as long suffering and courageous. Etc etc.

    Mostly TinTin is a reflection of attitudes of the times, with national stereotypes as the butt of the jokes, but usually affectionately. Many Tin Tin stories show him treating foreigners with courtesey and respect, freeing the african slaves being traffiked by Rastopopolous in The Crab with the Golden Claws for example. Indeed the rapracious villans are white Europeans!

    They are superb social documents and give a real insight into the "liberal" thinking of that period. They probably are racist, but so what? Dickens is profoundly anti-Semitic, as was Hemingway (who was also a racist). They were of their time. And that fact does not diminish their greatness.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited March 2016
    Oh ohh

    http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-labour-urged-to-suspend-councillor-over-hitler-and-isis-posts/
    Labour councillor and former Lord mayor has appeared to link Israel to Islamic State and promoted a Facebook message saying Hitler killed “six million Zionists”, Jewish News can reveal...

    Above the post, the councillor wrote: “There is no doubyt who created the so called ISIS and who is arming those vile terrorists!”
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Bloody hell, the polling failure in Idaho and Utah is off the charts bad on the democrat side.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249
    edited March 2016
    weejonnie said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    Received a BSE leaflet through the door, looked like one from a pizza place, all primary colours, telling me how jobs, wealth, you name it would be better/increased/etc by staying in. Totally b**sh*t stats no doubt.

    Pathetic.

    If that is the level of debate god help us. Then again, goodness only knows what the Leave one will look like; presumably edged in black.

    At least BSE are getting their leaflets out
    Shooting of ammo before they know the target. And Vote Leave can reply - the last speech is the most important.
    It will be disinformation and fear on both sides. John Redwood the other day said on the radio that we would have £12bn extra if we left, when even Civitas, in their pro-Brexit paper last year, put it at £1bn.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Trawl, welcome to pb.com.

    Haven't had anything from a Leave campaign. A few weeks ago, got a large leaflet of doom-laden woe from Remain.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    john_zims said:

    @SouthamObserver


    'There are going to be a lot of very, very angry Leave voters should Leave win. '


    You keep repeating that week after week,presumably based on your hope that after a Leave vote we will join EFTA, if we are not part of EFTA or EEA we can of course have our own independent immigration policy.

    You already know that but it doesn't fit with project Fear..

    Fair enough but the Tory Leavers who will be calling the shots if they win will without doubt join EFTA/EEA. Do you seriously think we are going to leave the EU and remain independent of other trading groups ?
  • Options
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Max, not only that, it'll further centralise power away from nation-states and in the hands of the bureaucrats.

    Perhaps we need to choose between democracy and freedom from terrorism. ( I genuinely don't know, or even know how to make the assessment.)

    It matters not if 999 Muslims out of a thousand are as appalled as anyone else by such attacks - the terrorists don't need that many recruits, after all.

    Ben Franklin:

    ”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
    I expected some clown to quote that. Franklin owned slaves, you know.

    May be some clown will quote it.

    Liberty refers to all free citizens and members of a demos. Clearly our modern views on who are members of the demos have changed in the last 250 years, but it doesn't invalidate the argument.
    You're floundering.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Abroad, Mr. Charles isn't floundering. Your perspective on both freedom/security and the quote is flawed.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Oh ohh

    http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/exclusive-labour-urged-to-suspend-councillor-over-hitler-and-isis-posts/

    Labour councillor and former Lord mayor has appeared to link Israel to Islamic State and promoted a Facebook message saying Hitler killed “six million Zionists”, Jewish News can reveal...

    Above the post, the councillor wrote: “There is no doubyt who created the so called ISIS and who is arming those vile terrorists!”
    Guido has another one:

    http://order-order.com/2016/03/23/labour-reinstates-suspended-corbynista-who-said-jews-behind-isis-and-911/

    That's two on the same day.
This discussion has been closed.