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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on Osborne’s next Cabinet job

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited March 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on Osborne’s next Cabinet job

After a sub-optimal fortnight for George Osborne, William Hill have a market up on George Osborne’s next Cabinet job. I think backing the 5/2 on him as next Foreign Secretary might be the best option. I suspect after the referendum (assuming a Remain victory) David Cameron will have a reconciliation reshuffle and move Osborne out of Number 11.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2016
    First

    I don't think Foreign Sec. Whether in or out he would be the wrong person to lead our EU Hokey Cokey. Not enough power of influence over other depts too. He will stay put and try to restore his reputation for competence.
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Never first - I hope GO never has another cabinet job post 23rd June. It is an excellent opportunity to torpedo Camborne and the rest of the snake oil salesmen who are selling out Britain. Churchill would be turning in his grave.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    Test

    Hello Dr Sox !
    Re the footy: Did others really consider it a good performance? The defences were shocking at both ends. Kane and Vardys goals both were well taken but I thought much of the rest of the game a bit languid.

    I thought that the Germans were poor. Do you remember the friendly with Argentina in November, 2005? We won that game 3-2 and the press got quite excited about that win, but you just knew that when we got to the tournament we wouldn't win. It has, however, given Hodgson food for thought on who to play.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Happy Easter, everyone. May the dread albino lagomorph have mercy upon you.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    daodao said:

    Never first - I hope GO never has another cabinet job post 23rd June. It is an excellent opportunity to torpedo Camborne and the rest of the snake oil salesmen who are selling out Britain. Churchill would be turning in his grave.

    "No other Cabinet post"

    Does this cover both him staying put and being defenestrated to the backbenches? The latter could easily happen if Leave won.

    Not a market that I find tempting.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    edited March 2016

    First

    I don't think Foreign Sec. Whether in or out he would be the wrong person to lead our EU Hokey Cokey. Not enough power of influence over other depts too. He will stay put and try to restore his reputation for competence.

    Bu Dr, when did he ever have a reputation for competence?

    I think the FCO would be a perfect fit for him. Lots of activity, lots of meaningless talking, no requirement to have the least clue what you're doing, and plenty of time to spend cultivating the backbenchers for a leadership bid.

    Moreover, the dire state of the Treasury means the new Chancellor would have no chance of further promotion, thus narrowing the field by one heavyweight, be that Hammond or Javid.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    Test

    Hello Dr Sox !
    Re the footy: Did others really consider it a good performance? The defences were shocking at both ends. Kane and Vardys goals both were well taken but I thought much of the rest of the game a bit languid.

    I thought that the Germans were poor. Do you remember the friendly with Argentina in November, 2005? We won that game 3-2 and the press got quite excited about that win, but you just knew that when we got to the tournament we wouldn't win. It has, however, given Hodgson food for thought on who to play.
    I don't recall that particular match.

    What last nights match did show was that we were much better showing some fight going forwards than defending. Brazil was a very poor performance as we hardly ever made a goal threat. We don't have the defenders to not concede.

    I also thought the body language of the players at Vardys goal and at the end interesting. The other players seemed to congratulating each other but snubbing him. Too chavvy for them I suppose, and upsetting the status quo.
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    @ foxsinsoxuk

    I meant that I hoped that GO would lose his current job and be out of the cabinet (along with DC) post 23/6.
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    Morning all and happy Easter to PBers worldwide.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    tlg86 said:

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    Test

    Hello Dr Sox !
    Re the footy: Did others really consider it a good performance? The defences were shocking at both ends. Kane and Vardys goals both were well taken but I thought much of the rest of the game a bit languid.

    I thought that the Germans were poor. Do you remember the friendly with Argentina in November, 2005? We won that game 3-2 and the press got quite excited about that win, but you just knew that when we got to the tournament we wouldn't win. It has, however, given Hodgson food for thought on who to play.
    I don't recall that particular match.

    What last nights match did show was that we were much better showing some fight going forwards than defending. Brazil was a very poor performance as we hardly ever made a goal threat. We don't have the defenders to not concede.

    I also thought the body language of the players at Vardys goal and at the end interesting. The other players seemed to congratulating each other but snubbing him. Too chavvy for them I suppose, and upsetting the status quo.
    Wouldn't surprise me - the England team has always had cliques - usually Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea.
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    Daodao [7.43am] "Churchill would be turning in his grave" - considering that he started as a Liberal, I doubt it.

    Don't say "Churchill" when you mean "Thatcher".
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,232
    There is absolutely no way that being moved to the FO or HO would be anything other than an unacceptable and humiliating demotion from Osborne. Those suggesting otherwise are failing to appreciate how central he is to the current administration, in many ways it is every bit his as well as Cameron's.

    For me, the only options are PM or out so this market is not attractive.
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited March 2016
    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    DavidL said:

    There is absolutely no way that being moved to the FO or HO would be anything other than an unacceptable and humiliating demotion from Osborne. Those suggesting otherwise are failing to appreciate how central he is to the current administration, in many ways it is every bit his as well as Cameron's.

    For me, the only options are PM or out so this market is not attractive.

    That is right, I think.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Bernie wins Hawaii
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    Daodao [7.43am] "Churchill would be turning in his grave" - considering that he started as a Liberal, I doubt it.

    Don't say "Churchill" when you mean "Thatcher".

    Churchill started as a Conservative, defected to the Liberals in 1903, and switched back in 1924.

    His reason for leaving in 1903 was that he feared the Tarriff Reform movement would leave the Unionists in hock to various vested interests, particularly steel and coal.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2016
    Isn't the usual way out DPM and Leader of the House?
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,712
    daodao said:

    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.

    http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183

    Bernie wins Hawaii

    We've talked a lot about stitch-ups at the Republican convention. If by a chance in a thousand Sanders can win the elected delegates, would the super delegates still block him? And if so, how would that look to the public?
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Note to the BBC.. Their news site needs a switch. News for sensible people and news for the the frivolous. A lot of what the BBC seem to class as news isn't. Contrary to Antifranks meme the other day , I think I'll have to start buying the Times.

    The cricket "highlights" didntr even show the ball (or if they did ) the commentary that sealed the win, BBC Doh.... it wasn't the last ball.. Epic fail.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Never mind about the fooytball, well done to the Engand (& Wales) t20 cricket team. Can they go on past the semis?
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    Daodao @ 9.04 [my quote button still isn't working] All these foreigners are dreadful, aren't they? But I shouldn't be too hard on you - no doubt your mother and/or your grandmothers got you to promise, as they lay dying, that you would hate foreigners for ever and ever.

    Churchill as almost everything you can think of at one point in his career or other. But I expect your mother got you to promise that you only remember him as he was in the summer of 1940.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    Jonathan said:

    Isn't the usual way out DPM and Leader of the House?

    That was the way Eden took with Butler, Thatcher did with Howe, Attlee with Cripps.

    However, they were all ousted within twelve months of doing it.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974

    daodao said:

    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.

    http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/
    At the time of the 1975 Refwerendum I met people who objected to the idea, on the grounds that it was the Treaty of Rome, ie Catholic takeover.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183
    edited March 2016

    Never mind about the fooytball, well done to the Engand (& Wales) t20 cricket team. Can they go on past the semis?

    They're facing New Zealand who have so far been awesome. I definitely make England second favourites for this match.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963

    Happy Easter, everyone. May the dread albino lagomorph have mercy upon you.

    Lagomorph is a new word for me. Thanks.

    Happy Easter everyone!

    And on topic: I doubt GO will want another cabinet job, and I'm not convinced he ever wanted the top job. He'll have been shadow chancellor or chancellor for over ten years. As with Cameron, it must be tempting to think that it's time for a rest.

    Personally, and I'm probably wrong with this, I see GO as Kingmaker rather than King. He could easily step down and take more of a Mandelson-type role.

    (As an aside, GO has been chancellor for nearly six years now. Leaving aside Brown, he must be approaching Lawson's time in that role, and therefore be one of the longest-serving chancellors in recent times).
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Short free story about the true message of Easter:
    http://thaddeuswhite.weebly.com/writing-blog/sir-edric-and-the-vampire-lord

    I do wonder what will happen with Osborne and, more widely, the Conservative leadership. Osborne seems busted. Boris is unlikely to get PCP support and isn't substantial enough. Gove's got the brains but lots of people dislike him. Hunt is a lightweight and his NHS moves will not endear him to people, one suspects.

    I'm not a fan of May, but by virtue of not being the others she's in a strong position.

    Javid's the most lightweight lightweight since Andy Burnham. Priti Patel would be super, but apparently she's rubbish at interviews and can't think on her feet.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    F1: murmurings about Monza being axed next year.

    Monza, historic circuit, fastest on the calendar, the home race of Ferrari, the biggest team in the sport.

    ....

    Beginning to wonder if a break-away series is the best way to go.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,183


    (As an aside, GO has been chancellor for nearly six years now. Leaving aside Brown, he must be approaching Lawson's time in that role, and therefore be one of the longest-serving chancellors in recent times).

    Lawson was 6years 4 months. So about 6 months to go before overhauling him. That would still leave Brown and Neville Chamberlain (if you add his two terms together). Nobody other than Brown has held the post for more than 7 years since Lloyd George in 1915.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2016

    Short free story about the true message of Easter:
    http://thaddeuswhite.weebly.com/writing-blog/sir-edric-and-the-vampire-lord

    I do wonder what will happen with Osborne and, more widely, the Conservative leadership. Osborne seems busted. Boris is unlikely to get PCP support and isn't substantial enough. Gove's got the brains but lots of people dislike him. Hunt is a lightweight and his NHS moves will not endear him to people, one suspects.

    I'm not a fan of May, but by virtue of not being the others she's in a strong position.

    Javid's the most lightweight lightweight since Andy Burnham. Priti Patel would be super, but apparently she's rubbish at interviews and can't think on her feet.

    FOR THOSE LIKE ME WHOSE QUOTE BUTTON ISNT WORKING, right click on the quote button and "open in a new window".. its a bit of a pain but it works... till they fix it
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Morning all, and Happy Easter! :)

    Well done to England in both cricket and football yesterday.

    On topic, would Osborne not see any move sideways as a demotion, as he is the de facto DPM at the moment and seems to have responsibilities for most of the domestic agenda? Not betting in this market, on what is the whim of the PM.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963

    F1: murmurings about Monza being axed next year.

    Monza, historic circuit, fastest on the calendar, the home race of Ferrari, the biggest team in the sport.

    ....

    Beginning to wonder if a break-away series is the best way to go.

    A break-away series would just be mucked up as well. Remember, F1 is not a sport; it's a business.

    The recent survey of F1 fan was a good idea, and from memory the findings were reasonable. That should be used as a bible that the F1 authorities try to stick to.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    daodao said:

    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.

    Churchill was keen on 'a kind of United States of Europe' though probably without us and signed us up to the ECHR etc

    He was against fascism and dictatorships neither of which is an issue in this debate.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited March 2016
    Anyone bet on this market ?

    http://abcnews.com.co/donald-trump-tweets-penis/

    Paddy Power might be able to settle.

    Lol seems it is a hoax. Amusing nonetheless.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MSmithsonPB: It's put the boot into Boris weekend. Nick Cohen follows Matthew Parris yesaterday with blistering attack. https://t.co/tO4YHeyDMk
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Jessop, even from a business perspective, this is stupid.

    Sponsors will soon see UK audiences slashed by around 75% due to the move to pay TV. Interest in Germany is severely down (at the race, at least), and now the Italian Grand Prix's at serious risk.

    Losing great, older circuits means on-track action becomes tedious (ironic, given Monaco pays no fee and has a guaranteed spot) and will further erode the audience.

    I don't mind a business interest, so long as it's not stupid.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Scotland’s Information Commissioner has become embroiled in a Holyrood election row after her office said she would delay “critical” decisions on the SNP Government until after polling day.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14386260.Freedom_of_Information_watchdog_caught_up_in_Holyrood_election__bias__row/
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963

    Mr. Jessop, even from a business perspective, this is stupid.

    Sponsors will soon see UK audiences slashed by around 75% due to the move to pay TV. Interest in Germany is severely down (at the race, at least), and now the Italian Grand Prix's at serious risk.

    Losing great, older circuits means on-track action becomes tedious (ironic, given Monaco pays no fee and has a guaranteed spot) and will further erode the audience.

    I don't mind a business interest, so long as it's not stupid.

    Indeed. The problem is the top teams get too much money. They're looking at their short-term interests in getting the pay-tv money rather than the long term interests in getting as many people as possible watching and nurturing new fans.

    I started watching F1 in the late 70's when the BBC started regularly showing it. I was five or so. If it goes to Pay TV, then my son will not become an early F1 fan.

    Still, there's far better motorsport anyway on free-to-view. BTCC is always fun. ;) (Season starts at Brands nest week)
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Short free story about the true message of Easter:
    http://thaddeuswhite.weebly.com/writing-blog/sir-edric-and-the-vampire-lord

    I do wonder what will happen with Osborne and, more widely, the Conservative leadership. Osborne seems busted. Boris is unlikely to get PCP support and isn't substantial enough. Gove's got the brains but lots of people dislike him. Hunt is a lightweight and his NHS moves will not endear him to people, one suspects.

    I'm not a fan of May, but by virtue of not being the others she's in a strong position.

    Javid's the most lightweight lightweight since Andy Burnham. Priti Patel would be super, but apparently she's rubbish at interviews and can't think on her feet.

    FOR THOSE LIKE ME WHOSE QUOTE BUTTON ISNT WORKING, right click on the quote button and "open in a new window".. its a bit of a pain but it works... till they fix it
    Use Chrome?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963

    daodao said:

    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.

    Churchill was keen on 'a kind of United States of Europe' though probably without us and signed us up to the ECHR etc

    He was against fascism and dictatorships neither of which is an issue in this debate.
    Someone claimed on here that the ECHR Churchill signed up to is a different beast to the one we have now. Can anyone confirm that, or am I misremembering?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    ydoethur said:

    Never mind about the fooytball, well done to the Engand (& Wales) t20 cricket team. Can they go on past the semis?

    They're facing New Zealand who have so far been awesome. I definitely make England second favourites for this match.
    Agree; Kiwis have been very, very clinical. Bet365 offer England to win the Cup at 7:2 and NZ at 10;3. Quite frankly, i think that’s generous on NZ and England are not as good as that.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Jessop, whilst I agree the funding of teams is unfair (Ferrari get a slice of the cake just for turning up), I believe the teams averted a pay TV exclusive move for 2016-18, and only didn't for 2019-24 because they were kept in the dark about it [that's the murmuring on Twitter]. The timing of the GPDA letter, right ahead of the Sky announcement, may lend some credence to that.

    Yeah, someone else told me the BTCC is on ITV4 on 3 April. I may see about giving that a look.

    Hard to remember the last time F1 got something right when it comes to coverage or regulations.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963

    Mr. Jessop, whilst I agree the funding of teams is unfair (Ferrari get a slice of the cake just for turning up), I believe the teams averted a pay TV exclusive move for 2016-18, and only didn't for 2019-24 because they were kept in the dark about it [that's the murmuring on Twitter]. The timing of the GPDA letter, right ahead of the Sky announcement, may lend some credence to that.

    Yeah, someone else told me the BTCC is on ITV4 on 3 April. I may see about giving that a look.

    Hard to remember the last time F1 got something right when it comes to coverage or regulations.

    Although it's disliked, I think that DRS helped overtaking. That's just my perception though.

    And the move to a single try supplier has made things more even.

    But it's hard to think of anything else recently ...
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    Happy Easter all!

    To take a view on GO is a third order decision after deciding about the leadership. If Leave win I think he may well decide to let the new leader pick his own Chancellor and call it a day in the Cabinet fort now. It's not as though he has a clear prospect of a wonderful economic position in 2-3 years if he stsys on.

    If Remain wins and say May becomes PM (to my mind the most likely now), then she might want him to stay for continuity, or she might want an acolyte there. A straight swap with Home Office might work - combines change and continuity. But the HO is hard work and soul-destroying - he might prefer the quieter but prestigious FO role. I can't see him accepting anything else.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    daodao said:

    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.

    Churchill was keen on 'a kind of United States of Europe' though probably without us and signed us up to the ECHR etc

    He was against fascism and dictatorships neither of which is an issue in this debate.
    Someone claimed on here that the ECHR Churchill signed up to is a different beast to the one we have now. Can anyone confirm that, or am I misremembering?
    I'd have no objections to us leaving as the ECHR has evolved since then but that's the nature of the beast. Everything evolves.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Mr. Jessop, even from a business perspective, this is stupid.

    Sponsors will soon see UK audiences slashed by around 75% due to the move to pay TV. Interest in Germany is severely down (at the race, at least), and now the Italian Grand Prix's at serious risk.

    Losing great, older circuits means on-track action becomes tedious (ironic, given Monaco pays no fee and has a guaranteed spot) and will further erode the audience.

    I don't mind a business interest, so long as it's not stupid.

    I think it's reasonably fair to say that F1 is in a bad place right now, in between the new qualifying screwup, the new cars for next year that won't be able to overtake a few seconds faster, and the loss of the historic base of the sport in favour of corrupt and autocratic regimes. Oh, and the Pay-TV deals which make it even harder for the competitors to get sponsorship.

    Most people think they abandoned the new qualifying farce after Melbourne, will be in for a shock in Bahrain next weekend as the same stupid system is repeated.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    MD what a cad Sir Edric is. Next you'll be revealing that he cheats at cricket.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Happy Easter

    Sanders will have picked up some momentum last night from his wins in Alaska, Washington and Hawaii and it will help him in Wisconsin but difficult to see it having much impact on Hillary's overall lead
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Mr. Jessop, whilst I agree the funding of teams is unfair (Ferrari get a slice of the cake just for turning up), I believe the teams averted a pay TV exclusive move for 2016-18, and only didn't for 2019-24 because they were kept in the dark about it [that's the murmuring on Twitter]. The timing of the GPDA letter, right ahead of the Sky announcement, may lend some credence to that.

    Yeah, someone else told me the BTCC is on ITV4 on 3 April. I may see about giving that a look.

    Hard to remember the last time F1 got something right when it comes to coverage or regulations.

    Although it's disliked, I think that DRS helped overtaking. That's just my perception though.

    And the move to a single try supplier has made things more even.

    But it's hard to think of anything else recently ...
    How does Hawkeye and Hotspot affect overtaking?

    ;)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    daodao said:

    Never first - I hope GO never has another cabinet job post 23rd June. It is an excellent opportunity to torpedo Camborne and the rest of the snake oil salesmen who are selling out Britain. Churchill would be turning in his grave.

    Churchill's grandson backs Remain
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925

    Happy Easter all!

    To take a view on GO is a third order decision after deciding about the leadership. If Leave win I think he may well decide to let the new leader pick his own Chancellor and call it a day in the Cabinet fort now. It's not as though he has a clear prospect of a wonderful economic position in 2-3 years if he stsys on.

    If Remain wins and say May becomes PM (to my mind the most likely now), then she might want him to stay for continuity, or she might want an acolyte there. A straight swap with Home Office might work - combines change and continuity. But the HO is hard work and soul-destroying - he might prefer the quieter but prestigious FO role. I can't see him accepting anything else.

    Osborne is senior to everyone else I the cabinet, bar Cameron. To serve under a new leader would mean serving under someone who he has probably pissed off in one way or another over the last few years. That may be tricky for both sides. Unless he still harbours hope of the leadership, why would he stay in the cabinet under such circumstances? Then there is Boris :-D

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    ydoethur said:

    Bernie wins Hawaii

    We've talked a lot about stitch-ups at the Republican convention. If by a chance in a thousand Sanders can win the elected delegates, would the super delegates still block him? And if so, how would that look to the public?
    Depends on what the numbers look like. I think they could deny him the nomination by splitting by up to about 2:1 against him (which would imply an awful run-in for Hillary, but then yesterday's numbers are awful with Sanders 70+ in all three states).

    The argument that they'd use is the popular vote. So far, Sanders has won the caucuses, excluding territories, by 10-2 (what a different campaign it would have been had Sanders taken Iowa and Nevada too!) but Hillary has won the primaries by 16-4. That undoubtedly gives her a big lead in the actual number of votes cast, though we can't know the exact figures because not all caucuses release them.

    The next up for the Democrats is the Wisconsin primary (also the GOP on the same day), on April 5. There, the polls put Hillary marginally ahead. The result there for both sides will determine how much either she or Trump can focus on each other and how much on their own primaries battle.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    daodao said:

    @ Innocent Abroad

    Churchill fought for British independence when most of the establishment would have done a deal with the dominating continental power, which would have left the UK as a mere vassal state. On 23/6, it is important to remember where and when the original idea for a European superstate was conceived, i.e. where the English football team was victorious last night.

    Churchill was keen on 'a kind of United States of Europe' though probably without us and signed us up to the ECHR etc

    He was against fascism and dictatorships neither of which is an issue in this debate.
    Someone claimed on here that the ECHR Churchill signed up to is a different beast to the one we have now. Can anyone confirm that, or am I misremembering?
    I am not at all impressed with trying to enlist historical figures in contemporary politics. The world was a different place back then so the decisions quite different.

    For example I think Maggies obvious Euro-enthusiasm in the seventies was in part down to her leadership ambitions and in part that the saw the EU as a way of cementing the European countries together in the Cold War. Once the Iron Curtain fell she became much more anti-EU. She was also going a bit senile and so it is hard to know how much was generalised grumpiness at being evicted like Ted.

    What this all means in the modern world is very different, where the economic and military threats are very different. Winston Churchill even more so. We may as well ask what Simon de Montfort would think about internet security.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2016
    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: It's put the boot into Boris weekend. Nick Cohen follows Matthew Parris yesaterday with blistering attack. https://t.co/tO4YHeyDMk


    ...And another one......read all about it! "He's got no friends" says Petronella.....

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3510868/My-amiti-amoureuse-Boris-Tory-darling-s-female-friend-breaks-silence-four-year-affair.html
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925
    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: It's put the boot into Boris weekend. Nick Cohen follows Matthew Parris yesaterday with blistering attack. https://t.co/tO4YHeyDMk

    Well, no-one will be able to say they weren't warned. Boris is the proverbial empty vessel. The idea of him leading the Brexit negotiations and then selling the final deal to what is bound to be a very sceptical public is far-fetched, to say the least. Not all philandering liars are a waste of space, of course; but those that combine such traits with zero political vision, an inability to concentrate and no attention to detail are perhaps best not suited to leadership.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited March 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Happy Easter

    Sanders will have picked up some momentum last night from his wins in Alaska, Washington and Hawaii and it will help him in Wisconsin but difficult to see it having much impact on Hillary's overall lead

    Are we seeing a late swing to Bernie in the Democrat race I wonder. Yesterday's results were not as close as most thought they would be, could we yet end up with a tight race decided at the Convention by the Super Delegates?

    Some value at 10/1 Bernie?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    edited March 2016
    Bernie's results last night were well above expectations, especially in Hawaii, where he trailed by miles in the only poll anyone bothered to take there some omnths ago. Clinton hasn't quite nailed this down although she's still a huge favourite. The delegate gap narrowed by arounbd 40 last night, and is now about 1240 for Clinton, 975 for Sanders, in elected delegates, but 469-29 in superdelegates. There are 215 uncommitted superdelegates.

    Next up is Wisconsin April 5 (86 elected delegates). That's a primary, not a caucus (good for Clinton) but has lots of white left-wingers (good for Sanders) and it's open to independents, also good for Sanders. The last poll on Wednesday had Clinton ahead just 50-44. I think he has a good shot at it. Then we have Wyoming caucuses Apr 9 (14 delegates), which Sanders should take, meh for delegate count but nice for momentum. At that point, the gap in elected delegates will be down to 200-odd. Clinton will hope to nail it on April 19 with the New York primary (247), Connecicut (55) and Delaware (21). All three are closed primaries, and she's represented NY in the Senate. If she doesn't win easily, she's in real trouble, as Bernie should win California (475 delegates) in June if he still has the current momentum.

    I think Hillary will win, but she's one blunder away from a real risk.
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    Morning everyone. F1 is in deep deep trouble if they're anti-Monza and pro-Azerbaijan. I also watch Indycar and the contrast is increasingly stark. Indy still has open racing with small teams capable of challenging, goes to lengths to make the competition more evenly matched, and seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: It's put the boot into Boris weekend. Nick Cohen follows Matthew Parris yesaterday with blistering attack. https://t.co/tO4YHeyDMk

    Well, no-one will be able to say they weren't warned. Boris is the proverbial empty vessel. The idea of him leading the Brexit negotiations and then selling the final deal to what is bound to be a very sceptical public is far-fetched, to say the least. Not all philandering liars are a waste of space, of course; but those that combine such traits with zero political vision, an inability to concentrate and no attention to detail are perhaps best not suited to leadership.
    Not a big fan then, Mr Observer? ;)

    FWIW I agree with you, as do my books on next Tory leader and next PM.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. F, Sir Edric, cheat? One cannot conceive of such a thing.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    Is Indycar "the most popular sport on Earth" ?

    unlike F1...
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925

    tlg86 said:

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    Test

    Hello Dr Sox !
    Re the footy: Did others really consider it a good performance? The defences were shocking at both ends. Kane and Vardys goals both were well taken but I thought much of the rest of the game a bit languid.

    I thought that the Germans were poor. Do you remember the friendly with Argentina in November, 2005? We won that game 3-2 and the press got quite excited about that win, but you just knew that when we got to the tournament we wouldn't win. It has, however, given Hodgson food for thought on who to play.
    I don't recall that particular match.

    What last nights match did show was that we were much better showing some fight going forwards than defending. Brazil was a very poor performance as we hardly ever made a goal threat. We don't have the defenders to not concede.

    I also thought the body language of the players at Vardys goal and at the end interesting. The other players seemed to congratulating each other but snubbing him. Too chavvy for them I suppose, and upsetting the status quo.

    The key to last night was that England played without fear. A high Tottenham press and the freedom to express themselves proved very effective against a nonchalant German side. We currently have some very good players - except, sadly, as centre back.

    I didn't think Vardy was snubbed. I think he may be slightly awkward and perhaps someone who keeps himself to himself. That's perfectly understandable given where he has come from and it will change as he becomes a regular member of the squad, which he will do now without doubt.

    Delle Alli is nineteen. If he is still a Spurs player in five years time I will be shocked and absolutely delighted.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    In news that could be from the Crisis of the Third Century, government forces have defeated rebels [Daesh, in this case] to reclaim Palmyra:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35906568
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    dyingswandyingswan Posts: 189
    I thought that Nicky Morgan showed commendable restraint yesterday in her address to the teachers. I would have made the point that 1 in 3 teachers vote Conservative. You Gov had Tory support amongst teachers at 29 pc just before the election and given the accuracy of the pollsters that was almost certainly an underestimate. When noisy trade union members are heckling and mocking in a way that would discredit a rowdy class of 14 year olds it is as well to remember the one third of teachers whose views are not being reflected. Well done to Ms Morgan for attending the conference.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. P, but F1 is busy trying to kill itself.

    Lots of people very into the sport are on the verge of just not bothering any more.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MSmithsonPB: It's put the boot into Boris weekend. Nick Cohen follows Matthew Parris yesaterday with blistering attack. https://t.co/tO4YHeyDMk

    Well, no-one will be able to say they weren't warned. Boris is the proverbial empty vessel. The idea of him leading the Brexit negotiations and then selling the final deal to what is bound to be a very sceptical public is far-fetched, to say the least. Not all philandering liars are a waste of space, of course; but those that combine such traits with zero political vision, an inability to concentrate and no attention to detail are perhaps best not suited to leadership.
    Not a big fan then, Mr Observer? ;)

    FWIW I agree with you, as do my books on next Tory leader and next PM.

    I get why people like him: he is engaging and funny - and the British absolutely love self-deprecation. But I have never ever seen anything in him that suggests a political philosophy, a willingness to put himself on the line, an ability to master detail or the courage to take a tough decision and to stick with it. He has done nothing of note in his eight years in charge of London except pay lots of people lots of money to do his day to day job for him. He is a newspaper columnist. That is no bad thing. But is not the basis for leading the country through what will be a hugely difficult period.

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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited March 2016
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Happy Easter

    Sanders will have picked up some momentum last night from his wins in Alaska, Washington and Hawaii and it will help him in Wisconsin but difficult to see it having much impact on Hillary's overall lead

    Are we seeing a late swing to Bernie in the Democrat race I wonder. Yesterday's results were not as close as most thought they would be, could we yet end up with a tight race decided at the Convention by the Super Delegates?

    Some value at 10/1 Bernie?
    Yes, we are seeing a late(ish) swing to Bernie.

    Yes, we could very easily end up with a technically brokered convention where Hillary's lead in pledged delegates is smaller than the number of superdelegates - at the moment, her lead is about 250 and there are over 700 superdelegates.

    No, there isn't value in Bernie at 10/1 unless you think the FBI is going to do something in the next four months. Bernie is now clear heir apparent in the 2016 what-happens-if-Hillary-falls stakes. After becoming stronger these last few weeks rather than fading away as might have been expected, it'd be very damaging to parachute in a White Knight, even Biden, should Hillary fall: Bernie will have too many delegates. However, assuming that doesn't happen, then he not only needs to overcome Hillary's lead in pledged delegates but overcome her lead in superdelegates too. Sure, some might switch to him if he finishes very strongly but you can be sure that if the pledged delegates finished level-pegging, Hillary would still hold a comfortable advantage on the supers.

    To even get back to level-pegging, he'd have to win around 57% of remaining delegates. In a proportional system, that's a bigger ask than it sounds (or than it would be for a GOP candidate). At present, while his national vote share is still rising, he remains about 8% behind Hillary; he'd need to be at least 10% ahead to win his 57% (because he'd do better in caucuses).

    And therein lies the problem. Sanders has won the caucuses 10-2 but lost the primaries 16-4. Nearly all the remaining contests are primaries (including New York). Realistically, Sanders should peak either today or after Wyoming and Wisconsin, where he's running Hillary within a couple of points going off recent polls. After that, it should finally be one-way traffic.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925
    dyingswan said:

    I thought that Nicky Morgan showed commendable restraint yesterday in her address to the teachers. I would have made the point that 1 in 3 teachers vote Conservative. You Gov had Tory support amongst teachers at 29 pc just before the election and given the accuracy of the pollsters that was almost certainly an underestimate. When noisy trade union members are heckling and mocking in a way that would discredit a rowdy class of 14 year olds it is as well to remember the one third of teachers whose views are not being reflected. Well done to Ms Morgan for attending the conference.

    They do it to all education secretaries. They gave Labour ones an equally rough ride. It's pathetic. But it's important to remember that the vast majority of teachers join unions for the protections they offer rather than for political purposes. And it is just as important to remember that sometimes teachers do actually have a point about the workloads they have, the amount of testing done at schools and the many problems forced academisation and centralisation create.

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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Wow! Nick Cohen's dystopian vision of the UK under a Boris leadership makes 'High-Rise' look like a lazy summer in Cap Ferrat
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Roger, if it's dystopian then, according to current trends, an attractive girl in her late teens/early 20s will undoubtedly arrive to shake up the system and lead the people to freedom (whilst being conflicted about which of two boys she wants to date).

    Still, at least it isn't grimdark...
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Morning everyone. F1 is in deep deep trouble if they're anti-Monza and pro-Azerbaijan. I also watch Indycar and the contrast is increasingly stark. Indy still has open racing with small teams capable of challenging, goes to lengths to make the competition more evenly matched, and seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    I can understand the desire to make F1 a truly global sport but being global has to mean not simply chasing the latest money-pot to a deserted and grubby venue. Heritage has to play a role too. If it didn't, there'd have been far more coverage of some horse race yesterday. No country has a divine right to a GP but motor racing is in Italy's blood and that ought to count for something, on top of the race usually being a decent spectacle. Fans matter, and they help generate that spectacle. We'll see that again this time next month in another sport, when a third-rank cycling race in Yorkshire generates far more public enthusiasm than much higher ranked elsewhere.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Happy Easter

    Sanders will have picked up some momentum last night from his wins in Alaska, Washington and Hawaii and it will help him in Wisconsin but difficult to see it having much impact on Hillary's overall lead

    ?
    Yes, we are seeing a late(ish) swing to Bernie.

    Yes, we could very easily end up with a technically brokered convention where Hillary's lead in pledged delegates is smaller than the number of superdelegates - at the moment, her lead is about 250 and there are over 700 superdelegates.

    No, there isn't value in Bernie at 10/1 unless you think the FBI is going to do something in the next four months. Bernie is now clear heir apparent in the 2016 what-happens-if-Hillary-falls stakes. After becoming stronger these last few weeks rather than fading away as might have been expected, it'd be very damaging to parachute in a White Knight, even Biden, should Hillary fall: Bernie will have too many delegates. However, assuming that doesn't happen, then he not only needs to overcome Hillary's lead in pledged delegates but overcome her lead in superdelegates too. Sure, some might switch to him if he finishes very strongly but you can be sure that if the pledged delegates finished level-pegging, Hillary would still hold a comfortable advantage on the supers.

    To even get back to level-pegging, he'd have to win around 57% of remaining delegates. In a proportional system, that's a bigger ask than it sounds (or than it would be for a GOP candidate). At present, while his national vote share is still rising, he remains about 8% behind Hillary; he'd need to be at least 10% ahead to win his 57% (because he'd do better in caucuses).

    And therein lies the problem. Sanders has won the caucuses 10-2 but lost the primaries 16-4. Nearly all the remaining contests are primaries (including New York). Realistically, Sanders should peak either today or after Wyoming and Wisconsin, where he's running Hillary within a couple of points going off recent polls. After that, it should finally be one-way traffic.
    Very good update, thanks David. A very salient point on the difference between primaries and caucuses which I hadn't picked up on before.

    The super delegates are of course there by design, to avoid the mess that might be the Republican Convention as most of them are party establishment types and not bound to vote for any particular candidate it would make sense for Hillary to win the majority of them.

    One had high hopes for the FBI turning up with something on Hillary, but the closer to the Convention we get the less likely that seems - even with the caveat that they do things their own way and on their own timescales.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963

    Morning everyone. F1 is in deep deep trouble if they're anti-Monza and pro-Azerbaijan. I also watch Indycar and the contrast is increasingly stark. Indy still has open racing with small teams capable of challenging, goes to lengths to make the competition more evenly matched, and seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    If Indycar is now in a good state, then it's turned round massively. There's hope for F1 yet.

    (I still get confused about Indycar's history, especially the long arguments between IRL / Champ Cars / Cart).

    I think. As I say, I find it all very confusing. :)
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Scott_P said:

    seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    Is Indycar "the most popular sport on Earth" ?

    unlike F1...
    Neither. Football is the only truly global sport. F1 is unusual in being a global *competition*.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    MD , well we know that the moment UK votes Leave, and Boris becomes PM, it'll be like living in A Hieronymus Bosch painting.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Mr. Roger, if it's dystopian then, according to current trends, an attractive girl in her late teens/early 20s will undoubtedly arrive to shake up the system and lead the people to freedom (whilst being conflicted about which of two boys she wants to date).

    Still, at least it isn't grimdark...

    Maybe one of the two he fathered in the last couple of years with assorted 'amitie amoureuse'? The interesting thing about not liking someone like Boris is that I'm ignorant of almost everything about him.

    Didn't the Mail make much of Livingstone's peccadillos during the mayoral elections?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. F, I'm afraid the only Hieronymus I'm familiar with is Hieronymus of Cardia, the 3rd/4th century BC historian.
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    A rather greedy 18.2% over-round by Wm. Hill in pricing up this market ..... I suppose they have to pay for the PB.com competition prize money somehow, but interesting though it is, the paucity of any real value means I'll leave well alone. Perhaps Shadsy can come up with something a little tastier?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Morning everyone. F1 is in deep deep trouble if they're anti-Monza and pro-Azerbaijan. I also watch Indycar and the contrast is increasingly stark. Indy still has open racing with small teams capable of challenging, goes to lengths to make the competition more evenly matched, and seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    If Indycar is now in a good state, then it's turned round massively. There's hope for F1 yet.

    (I still get confused about Indycar's history, especially the long arguments between IRL / Champ Cars / Cart).

    I think. As I say, I find it all very confusing. :)
    F1 will unfortunately keep going in the wrong direction until the current management are either purged or disappear off to the big racetrack in the sky.

    The pay TV deal seems purely to book future revenues in advance of the sale of the CVC stake in the sport, to the detriment of the teams who see little of the revenue while at the same time struggle to find sponsors as the audience falls by 70-80%.

    Could anyone imagine a small independent team such as Williams or McLaren deciding to enter F1 now if they weren't there already? By all accounts Gene Haas is basically putting his badge on Ferrari's B team.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    Mr. Roger, if it's dystopian then, according to current trends, an attractive girl in her late teens/early 20s will undoubtedly arrive to shake up the system and lead the people to freedom (whilst being conflicted about which of two boys she wants to date).

    Still, at least it isn't grimdark...

    True enough.

    Also accoding to modern trends dystopias fall very easily indeed, it makes the populations seem very lazy for not rising sooner.
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2016

    Scott_P said:

    seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    Is Indycar "the most popular sport on Earth" ?

    unlike F1...
    Neither. Football is the only truly global sport. F1 is unusual in being a global *competition*.
    Indeed, runners up to football, although all a very long way behind are tennis, rugby and cricket ..... all sports, like football, which were invented in England.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sam Kalidi
    Jesus: Table for 26 please.

    Maitre'd: There's only 13 of you.

    Jesus: But we're all going to sit on the same side. https://t.co/Am5YBxVXxf
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. kle4, that does amuse me.

    "We have an iron grip and dominate our people, crushing all dissent with ruthless tyranny!"

    "Sir, we're currently under attack. It's... it's a girl in her late teens, accompanied by some children and young adults!"

    "We're dooooomed!"
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    Talking of Football, I wonder about the potential of 'The Euros' in France - 10 June to 10 July - to influence the EU Referendum. Quite a lot of potential I'd estimate. Might make people feel more European; might bring focus on terrorism. Group stage over for England by 21 June. If England get through, last 16 starts on 25 June.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
    UK and Monaco?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    @Sandpit

    Bernie Sanders targets in upcoming races based off Demographics.

    Wisconsin 63
    Wyoming 71

    I expect Bernie will vastly exceed that in Wyoming. Wisconsin will most likely be closer.

    Interestingly Bernie has an efficiency advantage over Hillary now in terms of votes per delegate

    HRC: 7211
    Sanders: 6482

    I'm guessing Wyoming is a caucus, and one of the Dakotas maybe ?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Football is the only truly global sport.

    Probably, but that still doesn't necessarily make it "the most popular sport on Earth"
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
    UK and Monaco?
    One right, one wrong. ;-)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Herdson, not good at F1 history.

    I'd guess Brazil and... the UK.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
    UK and Monaco?
    One right, one wrong. ;-)
    UK and Italy?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Scott_P said:

    Football is the only truly global sport.

    Probably, but that still doesn't necessarily make it "the most popular sport on Earth"
    How are you defining popular? TV audiences? Event attendance? Income generated? Column-inches? Participation?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,963
    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
    UK and Monaco?
    At a guess, UK and Italy.

    I love the fact that Bernie drove a car in a support race at the very first championship GP in 1950. He really is F1, and more than anyone else has been responsible for its rise.

    He now might be responsible for its fall. But I still wouldn't bet against him.
  • Options

    Scott_P said:

    seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    Is Indycar "the most popular sport on Earth" ?

    unlike F1...
    Neither. Football is the only truly global sport. F1 is unusual in being a global *competition*.
    Indeed, runners up to football, although all a very long way behind are tennis, rugby and cricket ..... all sports, like football, which were invented in England.
    Wasn't rounders (aka baseball), although not a major world sport by any means, also invented in England?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
    UK and Monaco?
    One right, one wrong. ;-)
    Yeah. UK and Italy.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Scott_P said:

    seems focused on making the sport work for the fans.

    Is Indycar "the most popular sport on Earth" ?

    unlike F1...
    Neither. Football is the only truly global sport. F1 is unusual in being a global *competition*.
    Indeed, runners up to football, although all a very long way behind are tennis, rugby and cricket ..... all sports, like football, which were invented in England.
    Wasn't rounders (aka baseball), although not a major world sport by any means, also invented in England?
    Cheese-rolling also
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Wanderer said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Herdson, it's not just heritage. The older circuits in Europe (Spa, Silverstone, Monza [not Monaco]) are also amongst the best. Other, non-European classics like Montreal, Interlagos and Suzuka are similar. The on-track action is fantastic, especially compared to tedious street circuits, as most of the new tracks are (with exceptions, the US Grand Prix is rather good).

    So, on-track action becomes worse, and the sport moves behind a paywall. "Hey, everyone! Pay hundreds of pounds for something that used to be better, and free!" Not sure that's a convincing proposition for most people (not to mention housing associations and the like may forbid satellite dishes...).

    The heart of F1 audiences is in Europe. Sooner or later, they'll just stop caring. Nobody's heart skipped a beat upon learning there's an Azerbaijan street circuit on the calendar this year.

    That's all true, but heritage counts. Why is F1 so successful? Surely because it's established that position for itself in the first place, creating a virtuous circle: other racing series could compete on the most brilliant, exciting circuits but would struggle to break through.

    However, you're completely right about the potential for fans to tune out and that would break the cycle. The fans at the tracks help generate the atmosphere. Who is going to pay to watch cars going round in front of empty grandstands?

    I did an analysis of where the championship GPs have been over the decades not long ago. The European fan-base is no doubt a historic legacy of being where the series was run until not all that long ago, and is presumably something that Bernie wants to expand. As recently as 2003, there were ten European GPs and only six outside the continent. By 2006, the balance reached parity (nine in, nine out); the next year saw more outside Europe for the first time; in 2013 - uniquely, so far - there were more in Asia alone than Europe. But there is, as you say, a risk in all this in of cutting the sport off away from its established fan base.

    Out of interest, pub quiz question: there are only two countries to have staged races in every championship since 1950. Which are they?
    UK and Monaco?
    One right, one wrong. ;-)
    UK and Italy?
    Is correct.

    The Monaco GP was excluded from 1951-4 (it wasn't held in 1951, 1953 and 1954, and was a non-championship race in 1952).

    The other countries to have staged races in 60 or more of the 66 seasons up to and including last year are: Germany (62), Monaco (62) and Belgium (60).
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Mr. Herdson, not good at F1 history.

    I'd guess Brazil and... the UK.

    You surprise me, as you are obviously a big fan of it now.

    I think the history of F1 is a big part of it's appeal, more than for most sports. I think it's because of the way the cars have changed, evoking a different era when you see footage of them. Also, there is the casualty rate in the old days which was truly gladiatorial and lent a kind of doomed romance to the drivers.
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