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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The May elections less than 4 weeks away – Why so few Torie

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The May elections less than 4 weeks away – Why so few Tories are raising their voices against Cameron

On May 5th more than 2,000 Conservatives will be putting themselves forward as candidates for local councils, the Scottish and Welsh parliaments, the London Assembly as well as for police commissioners in every part of England apart from the capital. There are also mayoral elections in London and Bristol.

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    edited April 2016
    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    As Margaret Thatcher found out....ahem.....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    I thought being ruthless against leaders was their secret weapon.

    Seems like plenty of Tory voices in quiet against Cameron, so is it less loyalty to the party and more being gutless until events, electoral events like a referendum loss, do the job for them?

    Just playing devils advocate
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    The council up near me (except my actual council) is putting up a full slate of Tory candidates and campaigning hard to win.

    We know the winners in May will be willing footsoldiers in 2020 when these seats are next up for re-election.
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    Does this also mean then that the shire Tories can happily rip Cameron to shreds on May 7th?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    edited April 2016
    Wanderer said:

    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.

    For me the biggest shock was describing the Plaintiff as a 'celebrity'........their Husband, clearly is a very well known entertainer......but [REDACTED], really?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I'm one of the most ardent leavers in this place and I will be voting for David Cameron if he runs for leader after resigning. Doesn't matter who his opponent is in the final two. I disagree with his position on Europe and the manner in which the Remain campaign is being conducted, however, he is still the best PM and politician we have and the best person to represent us overseas. As I was saying a couple of nights ago, when Merkel got all wobbly about hitting Putin with sanctions for his entry into Ukraine, it wasn't Hollande, Rajoy or Rutte that pushed for EU level sanctions, it was Dave who beat back the German consensus for pacifism and appeasement.
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    taffys said:

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    As Margaret Thatcher found out....ahem.....
    As William Hague noted, "The Tory Party is an absolute monarchy, moderated by regicide."

    Or as someone else put it, to stab someone in the back, you have get yourself fully behind them.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.


    That and Regicide.....(which it does notably better than Labour.....)
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited April 2016
    R&T's latest prediction is surprisingly optimistic for the Tories. I seem to remember that they were predicting -250 for Lab before Christmas and the Conservatives' polling has slumped badly since then (and it's hard to see it not going further downhill between now and May 5th).

    I appreciate that 2012 was the high point for Lab in the last Parliament but, still, are we really expecting Tory gains in the current climate?

    I guess what I'm saying is: are R&T taking full account of the Tories' recent travails?
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987
    edited April 2016
    FPT

    EPG said: The USSR comparison is invalid for so many reasons, one being that it was knotted together through military conquest. The EU is so similar to the UK in this vague non-national but non-military statemaking process, and maybe that's why they look at each other in a funny light, because we are always weirded out by reflections of ourselves and the uncanny valley.

    The difference between the UK and the EU is that nation membership of the UK is not voluntary, it is enforced. The EU is more of a voluntary members club where you pay your dues and follow the rules if you want to enjoy the benefits. But you can leave at any time.

    This is not true of the nation states of the UK. Any referendum on independence is a concession by the UK government. Unlike the EU, the UK has armed forces, police and prisons to enforce its will in extremis. It is not a members club.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    Am I missing something? He is understandably irritated about being doorstepped.
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    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    In light of this, do you want me to pull/edit your next piece? I've just uploaded it.
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    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Wanderer said:

    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.

    For me the biggest shock was describing the Plaintiff as a 'celebrity'........their Husband, clearly is a very well known entertainer......but [REDACTED], really?
    Yes, the love-cheatee is 100x the celebrity that the love-cheator is.
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Of course Hilary's record as Secretary of State was as disastrous as her previous involvement in government.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/hillary-clinton-and-the-s_b_9231190.html?utm_hp_ref=yahoo&ir=Yahoo
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @TheScreamingEagles No, I'm happy with it as it stands.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Given your high status within the party, perhaps you could remind the 1922 committee..! :lol:
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    Wanderer said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.

    For me the biggest shock was describing the Plaintiff as a 'celebrity'........their Husband, clearly is a very well known entertainer......but [REDACTED], really?
    Yes, the love-cheatee is 100x the celebrity that the love-cheator is.
    But this is yet another wonderful demonstration of the Streisand effect.

    If they'd left it alone it would have sunk without trace - as it is its now THE STORY THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO READ
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    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Given your high status within the party, perhaps you could remind the 1922 committee..! :lol:
    If I had high status within the Tory Party I would be currently

    1) A member of the House of Lords

    2) Co-Chairman of the Tory Party alongside Andrew Feldman
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    MaxPB said:

    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    Am I missing something? He is understandably irritated about being doorstepped.
    Jeremy Corbyn broke my microphone...
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited April 2016
    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    MaxPB said:

    I'm one of the most ardent leavers in this place and I will be voting for David Cameron if he runs for leader after resigning. Doesn't matter who his opponent is in the final two. I disagree with his position on Europe and the manner in which the Remain campaign is being conducted, however, he is still the best PM and politician we have and the best person to represent us overseas. As I was saying a couple of nights ago, when Merkel got all wobbly about hitting Putin with sanctions for his entry into Ukraine, it wasn't Hollande, Rajoy or Rutte that pushed for EU level sanctions, it was Dave who beat back the German consensus for pacifism and appeasement.

    Indeed. Sometimes, when I fulminate against Dave I do feel a bit guilty. A bit like the spoilt child acting up in front of the indulgent parent. There it is.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    I think I’d be also irritated if a second rate hack appeared at my front door. #buggeroff.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Eagles, don't try and hide your power with false modesty.

    After all, the first triumvirate had no legal footing.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Given your high status within the party, perhaps you could remind the 1922 committee..! :lol:
    If I had high status within the Tory Party I would be currently

    1) A member of the House of Lords

    2) Co-Chairman of the Tory Party alongside Andrew Feldman
    One of those would make you the first against the wall when the leftie revolution comes, and the other the first against the wall when the Conservative Constituency Associations revolution comes :D
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    MaxPB said:

    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    Am I missing something? He is understandably irritated about being doorstepped.
    Oh a day like today he should be delighted to be able to put the boot in...
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Barnesian said:

    FPT

    EPG said: The USSR comparison is invalid for so many reasons, one being that it was knotted together through military conquest. The EU is so similar to the UK in this vague non-national but non-military statemaking process, and maybe that's why they look at each other in a funny light, because we are always weirded out by reflections of ourselves and the uncanny valley.

    The difference between the UK and the EU is that nation membership of the UK is not voluntary, it is enforced. The EU is more of a voluntary members club where you pay your dues and follow the rules if you want to enjoy the benefits. But you can leave at any time.

    This is not true of the nation states of the UK. Any referendum on independence is a concession by the UK government. Unlike the EU, the UK has armed forces, police and prisons to enforce its will in extremis. It is not a members club.

    That just means the UK is a state, and the EU isn't - yet. But it wants to be.
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    Indigo said:

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Given your high status within the party, perhaps you could remind the 1922 committee..! :lol:
    If I had high status within the Tory Party I would be currently

    1) A member of the House of Lords

    2) Co-Chairman of the Tory Party alongside Andrew Feldman
    One of those would make you the first against the wall when the leftie revolution comes, and the other the first against the wall when the Conservative Constituency Associations revolution comes :D
    Having recently explained what the constituency changes are about to to a constituency Chairman, they went from hostile to very understanding and supportive of Lord Feldman's plans.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,157
    Wanderer said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.

    For me the biggest shock was describing the Plaintiff as a 'celebrity'........their Husband, clearly is a very well known entertainer......but [REDACTED], really?
    Yes, the love-cheatee is 100x the celebrity that the love-cheator is.
    I generally can't be arsed to find out as nearly all the time I've never even heard of the "celebrities" in question. I hope someone will reveal the dastardly news at tonight's drinks, if I manage to make it.

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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    I'd rate the sense of 1922 much higher than Number 10 right now.

    They flex their muscles when required.
    As I said earlier, there's an uncomfortable similarity between Cameron and Blair right now. I really didn't like the Party bringing him down as they did. I can see Cameron getting a similar fate unless he pays more attention to the whole Party.

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Given your high status within the party, perhaps you could remind the 1922 committee..! :lol:
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @SimonStClare I'd be irritated too. But how difficult would it have been to pull himself together and say: "The Prime Minister's story is unravelling hour by hour. Most of us would remember pretty quickly whether we had ever had any money in a Panamanian offshore investment and most of us would have no idea why one was needed in the first place. For the sake of good government, the Prime Minister needs to make a clean breast of it so that the rest of us can see exactly what he was up to. If he can't do that then yes he should resign."

    He can then throw his leg across his saddle, cycle off without looking backwards and leave the journalists with an epic shot for TV news of his lycra-clad derriere illuminated by the dawn sun.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2016

    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    The famous Jezza temper coming out. How is he going to handle a month of 24/7 of this on the campaign trail.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Our three great weapons are:

    Surprise, fear and a fanatical loyalty to the leader....
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Yesterday BBC reporter in Gloucestershire thought that Labour and LDs were having problems finding enough candidates for seats. Haven't yet checked if there is a shortfall yet.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    It's quite an achievement to manage to get a bad news story out of this, but you should never underestimate Jeremy Corbyn's ingenuity:

    https://twitter.com/LBC_Charlotte/status/718381074359984128

    I think I’d be also irritated if a second rate hack appeared at my front door. #buggeroff.
    I think we all would. Unfortunately, front line politicians are expected to always be polite and forthcoming. Going all Gordon Brown on the media all only leads in one direction.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Second rate hack meets second rate leader.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Our three great weapons are:

    Surprise, fear and a fanatical loyalty to the leader....
    I thought Lib Dem weapons were losing as hard as possible, then moaning about it.
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    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Our three great weapons are:

    Surprise, fear and a fanatical loyalty to the leader....
    Sounds like Luca Brasi.
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    marke09marke09 Posts: 926
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Pulpstar said:

    Second rate hack meets second rate leader.

    When Russell met Ed....
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    If a tory party that is tearing itself apart about the EU (again) actually gains seats surely Labour will wake up and smell, err, the brown stuff. And they won't want to be drinking it.

    Personally, I find this very hard to credit. My guess is that Labour will do somewhat better than these projections on the basis that the motivation of a lot of Tories is sub-optimal. UKIP may just get a bounce. If they can't do well a month before the EU referendum even Nigel might begin to wonder what the point is.
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    Thank God for the European Court of Human Rights.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    IDS? Oh yeah, I remember him...
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
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    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Our three great weapons are:

    Surprise, fear and a fanatical loyalty to the leader....
    Is why pretty much why every Tory leader in the 20th and 21st centuries, apart from most of the ones who faced Blair, went on to become PM.

    We're loyal, ruthless, and have high standards.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576

    @SimonStClare I'd be irritated too. But how difficult would it have been to pull himself together and say: "The Prime Minister's story is unravelling hour by hour. Most of us would remember pretty quickly whether we had ever had any money in a Panamanian offshore investment and most of us would have no idea why one was needed in the first place. For the sake of good government, the Prime Minister needs to make a clean breast of it so that the rest of us can see exactly what he was up to. If he can't do that then yes he should resign."

    It's the charmless peevishness of it - and its not as though its an obscure topic that no one has been discussing.

    Some left field question on 'Fishing quotas off the South Coast from 2019' I could have some sympathy with a grumpy response to - but the top story of the last few days?
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    DavidL said:

    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    IDS? Oh yeah, I remember him...
    As someone who shall remain nameless told me

    "IDS, proving to be a better leader of the opposition the second time round, but still showing why we ditched him"
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    The only thing that's been pushing me away from Dave is support for him from the likes of Roger and tyson. Invariably, I find myself on the same side of the argument as them and I have a rethink. Though they could just be trolling long time Dave supporters like us.
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    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
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    MaxPB said:

    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    The only thing that's been pushing me away from Dave is support for him from the likes of Roger and tyson. Invariably, I find myself on the same side of the argument as them and I have a rethink. Though they could just be trolling long time Dave supporters like us.
    Having met both Roger and Tyson, you'd like them if you met them, I think they are genuinely appalled by Corbyn and going for the one party leader who is up to the job.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,045
    Nixon on LBJ. I bow to others' greater knowledge of the United States.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqTMELBh23g
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Actually, I'm pretty happy with Boris for Leave.

    He's the same solid media performer he's always been. This isn't a Select Committee.

    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.

    The Conservatives' local government base remains very strong for a party that's been in government for six years.
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    I'd rate the sense of 1922 much higher than Number 10 right now.

    They flex their muscles when required.
    As I said earlier, there's an uncomfortable similarity between Cameron and Blair right now. I really didn't like the Party bringing him down as they did. I can see Cameron getting a similar fate unless he pays more attention to the whole Party.

    Loyalty is the Tory Party's secret weapon.

    Given your high status within the party, perhaps you could remind the 1922 committee..! :lol:
    I do believe David Cameron is genuinely concerned that his stance on the EU is causing splits in the party and that he is distracted from the need for good government during this pre referendum period. I hope that he survives as I do believe he was very naively trying to protect his Father and in the end the only accusation that could be made against him is that he wasn't frank enough, soon enough. Next week provides the confirmation of the official leave campaign and the headlines will no doubt move back to the referendum. I think that post the referendum the party will need him to continue for a period in a unifying cabinet and give time for his successor to emerge. I originally thought he would continue till late 2019 but I think he may decide to hand over late next year or in early 2018, unless something detrimental unexpectedly emerges over the next few days.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
    Boris to Treasury was the truly sneaky move I have heard.

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    JonathanD said:


    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    They are much more likely to be anti-Osborne though
    In the event of a Remain victory, Dave moves George to the FO and Gove to the Treasury, everyone's happy
    Boris to Treasury was the truly sneaky move I have heard.

    If Remain wins, Boris will be lucky to become a Minister of State at Northern Ireland.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    In case anyone missed it, there's been a fall in manufacturing output:

    http://tinyurl.com/j4wkhlc
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    Sean_F said:

    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.

    The Conservatives' local government base remains very strong for a party that's been in government for six years.
    Hard to believe it was 20 odd years ago that the Tories lost 2,000 councillors in one night.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    DavidL said:

    If a tory party that is tearing itself apart about the EU (again) actually gains seats surely Labour will wake up and smell, err, the brown stuff. And they won't want to be drinking it.

    Personally, I find this very hard to credit. My guess is that Labour will do somewhat better than these projections on the basis that the motivation of a lot of Tories is sub-optimal. UKIP may just get a bounce. If they can't do well a month before the EU referendum even Nigel might begin to wonder what the point is.

    Labour haven't been gaining any ground from the Conservatives in recent local by-elections. Where the Tories have lost, it's been to independents, or the occasional Lib Dem.
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    You just couldn't make up the thought of Leave using the European Courts of Human Rights
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    You just couldn't make up the thought of Leave using the European Courts of Human Rights
    As has been pointed out on here many times, the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Paradoxically, I find it more amusing that Remain could be brought down by it.

    You just couldn't make up the thought of Leave using the European Courts of Human Rights
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    tlg86 said:

    In case anyone missed it, there's been a fall in manufacturing output:

    http://tinyurl.com/j4wkhlc

    Dreadful numbers on manufacturing, sadly.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If you have a subscription to the FT you must read this account of lunch with Nigel Farage:

    http://app.ft.com/cms/s/864c3a96-fbf1-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d.html?siteedition=uk

    If you haven't, get one.
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/new-kasich-n.y.-ad-goes-after-cruz-ignores-trump/article/2587998

    Following his ads attacking Lyin' Ted and HRC in WI Kasich continues in the same vein in NY. So obvious to see what his intentions are, who knows if a deal has been down, but it is one of a number Trump could do if he is a few short.

    https://dougwead.wordpress.com/2016/03/07/how-the-establishment-will-now-try-to-steal-the-nomination-from-donald-trump/
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Call that a messy lunch?? what a ponceyboots.
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    Paradoxically, I find it more amusing that Remain could be brought down by it.

    You just couldn't make up the thought of Leave using the European Courts of Human Rights
    It would be very interesting from both sides of the argument
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    edited April 2016

    Sean_F said:

    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.

    The Conservatives' local government base remains very strong for a party that's been in government for six years.
    Hard to believe it was 20 odd years ago that the Tories lost 2,000 councillors in one night.
    I remember it well. The Conservatives lost wards like Aldenham West, Elstree (!), Potters Bar East and West, and Labour took control of Hertsmere Borough Council.

    Oh, and Labour won Aldenham Parish Council (basically, Radlett, Aldenham, and Letchmore Heath). Probably the wealthiest parish council in the country, by head of population.
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    taffys said:

    You just couldn't make up the thought of Leave using the European Courts of Human Rights
    As has been pointed out on here many times, the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong

    Conservative plans to leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) and create a British Bill of Rights are “Worthless”.

    Nigel Farage, UKIP’s leader said: “Whether they like it or not, we will never be free of the European Convention of Human Rights while we stay in the European Union. While the ECHR was initially a creation of the Council of Europe, the pan European body that stretches to the Urals, it is now an integrated part of the European Union.

    "Back in 2011 I asked the European Commission a series of Questions about the way in which membership of the EU requires, post Lisbon, a Treaty which Cameron refused to give us a referendum on, accession to the constraints of the ECHR. The answers given make it absolutely clear.”

    - ...respect for fundamental rights as guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights is an explicit obligation for the Union under Article 6(3) of the Treaty on European Union.

    http://www.ukip.org/let_s_get_it_straight_on_human_rights
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,045
    MaxPB said:

    The other thing that is playing a factor is the 10% of the Tory Party who have never been reconciled with Dave's leadership have had a bit of a reality check post IDS's resignation.

    They were pleasantly surprised when so many Tory MPs came out for Leave, they say this as an opportunity to topple Dave no matter what come June 24th, however

    1) Boris has been a big disappointment

    2) Just because you're a Leaver doesn't mean you're automatically anti-Dave. Do we really expect the likes of Gove, Zahawi et al to try and topple Dave. Never happening.

    The only thing that's been pushing me away from Dave is support for him from the likes of Roger and tyson. Invariably, I find myself on the same side of the argument as them and I have a rethink. Though they could just be trolling long time Dave supporters like us.
    I took completely the opposite view of tyson to Cameron. Maybe we are a slightly different generation? I thought he was okay at first (certainly better than Howard and IDS!) and was not really bothered by his posh background. The more time has gone on, the less I like him. He seems more tied to privilege than I had initially assumed and I'm now entirely of the view that he has confected an image of charming good sense when what lies beneath is cynical and snide. Perhaps it has been the skill throughout the ages for wealthy men to be schooled (literally?) in such insincerity but it's rather pernicious and like women who time and again go for bad boys, we as a country fall for it.
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    Sean_F said:

    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.

    The Conservatives' local government base remains very strong for a party that's been in government for six years.
    Yes, the "vote against the government" protests all went on destroying the Party Formerly Known as the Lib Dems.

    Whatever happened to them...?
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987
    Cyclefree said:

    Wanderer said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.

    For me the biggest shock was describing the Plaintiff as a 'celebrity'........their Husband, clearly is a very well known entertainer......but [REDACTED], really?
    Yes, the love-cheatee is 100x the celebrity that the love-cheator is.
    I generally can't be arsed to find out as nearly all the time I've never even heard of the "celebrities" in question. I hope someone will reveal the dastardly news at tonight's drinks, if I manage to make it.

    The answer is boring.

    I made the big mistake of using #threesome on Twitter to try to find out. OMG! I'm obviously an innocent. I just hope Google doesn't remember and start serving me (in)appropriate ads or I'll have some explaining to do to my wife.

    #superinjunction did the trick.
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    If you have a subscription to the FT you must read this account of lunch with Nigel Farage:

    http://app.ft.com/cms/s/864c3a96-fbf1-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d.html?siteedition=uk

    If you haven't, get one.

    Is a great interview
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    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.

    The Conservatives' local government base remains very strong for a party that's been in government for six years.
    Hard to believe it was 20 odd years ago that the Tories lost 2,000 councillors in one night.
    I remember it well. The Conservatives lost wards like Aldenham West, Elstree (!), Potters Bar East and West, and Labour took control of Hertsmere Borough Council.
    And that was despite me in PB East remaining loyal to the cause.
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    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    OGH rightly highlights the Conservative councillors. Almost 9,000 strong, 2,000 more than Labour, 7,000 more than LDs. 9,000 Quiet for now. But what is coming?
    Some are facing changes coming from Osborne. The councils with LEAs face losing all schools. The councils with plans for regional Mayor proposals and discussins face major disruption to what they can have a say in.
    There is also the potentially massive reorganisation of Associations and how in future councillors are selected as candidates. All under the umbrella of the infamous Feldman Review. A Review led by a man who's ratings amongst members were almost as bad as Osborne's.
    It adds up to a set of own goals, splits and internal turmoil. All originating from the top of the party.

    The Conservatives' local government base remains very strong for a party that's been in government for six years.
    Hard to believe it was 20 odd years ago that the Tories lost 2,000 councillors in one night.
    I remember it well. The Conservatives lost wards like Aldenham West, Elstree (!), Potters Bar East and West, and Labour took control of Hertsmere Borough Council.

    Oh, and Labour won Aldenham Parish Council (basically, Radlett, Aldenham, and Letchmore Heath). Probably the wealthiest parish council in the country, by head of population.
    In hindsight it was 1996 was worse for the Tories, it gave you hope that the 1997 general election might not be so bad.

    IIRC 1996 so the Tory vote go up by 4% from 1995, when we lost the 2,000 councillors.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    On topic. "If Cameron, as is likely, hangs on until May 5th then his position could be reinforced by expected gains for his party on that day."

    Or. All gloves can come off at that point, particularly with those constituency parties who feel slighted and ignored by Cameron.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,916
    Barnesian said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Wanderer said:

    Wanderer said:

    FPT, thank you for the love-cheat hints. It'll take me a couple of vodka and tonics to get over the shock.

    For me the biggest shock was describing the Plaintiff as a 'celebrity'........their Husband, clearly is a very well known entertainer......but [REDACTED], really?
    Yes, the love-cheatee is 100x the celebrity that the love-cheator is.
    I generally can't be arsed to find out as nearly all the time I've never even heard of the "celebrities" in question. I hope someone will reveal the dastardly news at tonight's drinks, if I manage to make it.

    The answer is boring.

    I made the big mistake of using #threesome on Twitter to try to find out. OMG! I'm obviously an innocent. I just hope Google doesn't remember and start serving me (in)appropriate ads or I'll have some explaining to do to my wife.

    #superinjunction did the trick.
    Another example of why twitter is best for celebrity-obsessed bird-brains.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    So a light lunch for Nige....And what did the journo eat / drink?
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    If a tory party that is tearing itself apart about the EU (again) actually gains seats surely Labour will wake up and smell, err, the brown stuff. And they won't want to be drinking it.

    Personally, I find this very hard to credit. My guess is that Labour will do somewhat better than these projections on the basis that the motivation of a lot of Tories is sub-optimal. UKIP may just get a bounce. If they can't do well a month before the EU referendum even Nigel might begin to wonder what the point is.

    Labour haven't been gaining any ground from the Conservatives in recent local by-elections. Where the Tories have lost, it's been to independents, or the occasional Lib Dem.
    As someone defending one of the 52 from the Tories, I found out last night that I will have a UKIP opponent but not a Green one. Very happy with this state of affairs. I wonder if it's more than an anecdote though - has Labour's leftward shift meant fewer Green candidates? That won't help the Tories if there are fewer candidates on the left. Might be more than the occasional Lib Dem if so.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016


    - ...respect for fundamental rights as guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights is an explicit obligation for the Union under Article 6(3) of the Treaty on European Union.

    http://www.ukip.org/let_s_get_it_straight_on_human_rights

    He's not wrong


    3. Fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, shall constitute general principles of the Union's law.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    tlg86 said:

    In case anyone missed it, there's been a fall in manufacturing output:

    http://tinyurl.com/j4wkhlc

    Not good numbers at all.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,045

    So a light lunch for Nige....And what did the journo eat / drink?
    National sovereignty, boozy lunches with British food, no political correctness - does Farage dream of the 1970s.
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    If you have a subscription to the FT you must read this account of lunch with Nigel Farage:
    http://app.ft.com/cms/s/864c3a96-fbf1-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d.html?siteedition=uk
    If you haven't, get one.

    A good read, for one of the most europhile papers. Not all fair to Farage. Only some of his opponents regard him as racist, I do not.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    More trade figures, another record EU trade deficit. More bad news from the index of production as well. Manufacturing in reverse again.

    Feb trade

    Exports:

    EU - £11.3bn (+£0.4bn)
    Non-EU - £11.9bn (-£0.1bn)

    Imports

    EU - £19.9bn (+£1.2bn)
    Non-EU £15.3bn (-£1.1bn)

    Absolutely horrible figures.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Quite. I remain entirely perplexed by the arrogant dismissal of concerns from fellow Tories.

    It may be big and clever on an interweb forum, it cuts no ice with those getting off the bus en route.
    MTimT said:

    On topic. "If Cameron, as is likely, hangs on until May 5th then his position could be reinforced by expected gains for his party on that day."

    Or. All gloves can come off at that point, particularly with those constituency parties who feel slighted and ignored by Cameron.

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    MTimT said:

    On topic. "If Cameron, as is likely, hangs on until May 5th then his position could be reinforced by expected gains for his party on that day."

    Or. All gloves can come off at that point, particularly with those constituency parties who feel slighted and ignored by Cameron.

    Could there be echoes of the first attempted coup against IDS when the would-be assassins were uncomfortably trapped in the TV studies as good results kept coming in?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Nixon on LBJ. I bow to others' greater knowledge of the United States.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqTMELBh23g

    Missing the key word, even though I've re-run the clip several times. Can anyone help? ... "They're calling me the number one [what???]"
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    tlg86 said:

    In case anyone missed it, there's been a fall in manufacturing output:

    http://tinyurl.com/j4wkhlc

    Not good numbers at all.
    Didn't George say
    What is more the forecast shows a gradual rebalancing of the economy, with business investment and exports playing a greater role and government spending and debt-fuelled consumption a smaller role.
    Clearly an economic seer of epic ability.....
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,045

    If you have a subscription to the FT you must read this account of lunch with Nigel Farage:
    http://app.ft.com/cms/s/864c3a96-fbf1-11e5-b5f5-070dca6d0a0d.html?siteedition=uk
    If you haven't, get one.

    A good read, for one of the most europhile papers. Not all fair to Farage. Only some of his opponents regard him as racist, I do not.
    It's been a tough time for city types in recent years though. Scorned for being greedy, selfish, even corrupt. It must be nice to have a political opponent like Ukip come along whom you can deplore self-righteously.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I once spent an afternoon at Petreus with a supplier, the bill was over £1100 for two of us.

    He couldn't hold his drink and later confessed to throwing up about £400 of 1918 whisky. The food was average :wink:
    taffys said:

    Call that a messy lunch?? what a ponceyboots.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    MTimT said:

    Nixon on LBJ. I bow to others' greater knowledge of the United States.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqTMELBh23g

    Missing the key word, even though I've re-run the clip several times. Can anyone help? ... "They're calling me the number one [what???]"
    Bomber.
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    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    Wow this #resignCameron is really gaining traction. He's an idiot for obfuscating and lying given how vitriolic he was towards people like Jimmy Carr.

    I've no idea what this thread's about. The leadership challenge won't come before the last week of June. And come it will.
This discussion has been closed.