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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » We need to re-think next CON leader betting following Camer

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » We need to re-think next CON leader betting following Cameron’s rough week on his financial affairs

One consequence I’d suggest of the past week’s revelations relating to David Cameron is that his successor will come from a very different sort of background. Next time the party will not choose a “posh boy who doesn’t know the price of bread” to use the Nadine Dorries quote.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    For all the talk of Labour being "the first Opposition in decades to lose council seats", it seems to have been ignored that the Conservatives could well be heading for one of the worst performances of a sitting government in the first year of its term.

    History suggests that anytime a government loses the National Estimated Vote in local elections in their first year by anymore than 2%, they go on to lose the next General Election.

    Now, a couple of weeks ago, I would've said it was almost certain the Tories would either win the local election voteshare, or come within 2% or less to Labour. Now though, I'm not so sure...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Further to that post:- governments' performances in local elections in their first year since 1979. The only ones to lose by more than 2% in bold:

    1980 Locals: Labour led by 2% (Tories won GE1983)
    1984 Locals: Tories led by 1% (Tories won GE1987)
    1988 Locals: Tories led by 1% (Tories won GE1992)
    1993 Locals: Labour led by 8% (Labour won GE1997)
    1998 Locals: Labour led by 4% (Labour won GE2001)
    2002 Locals: Tories led by 1% (Labour won GE2005)
    2006 Locals: Tories led by 13% (Tories won GE2010)
    2011 Locals: Tories led by 1% (Tories won GE2015)
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    I couldn't give 2 hoots how much money Cameron has or was given, he didn't steal it. But I maintain as a Leaver that buses with him and Osborne on the side should be driven round Labour strongholds on the day of the referendum.

    Vote Leave and wipe the smile off their faces.

    Would be my slogan. It'll make Project Fear look silly.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    The tax returns are published.. £46k in rental income per year. An expensive landlord :o
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Ugh, this means we're going to get a lot more of that folksy american style backstory pandering from our politicians aren't we?

    It's pointless anyway - the Labour brand is still regarded as closer to the working man and woman, so the Tories could be led by a mendicant friar who'd taken a vow of poverty and the party would still not be seen as looking out for those at the bottom as well as Labour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited April 2016
    Although seriously, 1 million over 6 years does not seem all that high for the upper crust, or even the middle upper crust. And I'm on 30k per annum (and highest earner in my entire family).

    Interesting the article itself as visible doesn't mention the detail behind the headline.
  • kle4 said:

    Although seriously, 1million over 6 years does not seem all that high for the upper crust, or even the middle upper crust. And I'm on 30k per annum (and highest earner in my entire family).

    Some in the civil service and in hospital trust will far exceed that
  • kle4 said:

    Although seriously, 1million over 6 years does not seem all that high for the upper crust, or even the middle upper crust. And I'm on 30k per annum (and highest earner in my entire family).

    Some in the civil service and in hospital trust will far exceed that
    And local government
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited April 2016
    One of the most mendacious headlines of recent years.

    Next week, just as in every week of the year, dozens of testators and others will seek professional advice on how to achieve exactly the same thing.

    They have probably been reading, amongst others, government and HMRC websites...
    https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Meanwhile, whoever runs the LBC Twitter account seems to have slightly lost the plot this week:

    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/717460847585574913

    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/718847749869932544
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2016
    Just found out something pertinent about the "off-shore" fund that Cameron ran. It was a "distributor fund", which means all the profits were distributed to investors and hence why when the media report why did it pay no tax, its because they distribute all the profits to the individuals. There is no tax efficiency.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Labour councillor, 20, suspended over claims she called Hitler 'the greatest man in history' in latest anti-Semitic scandal to hit Corbyn's party

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Labour councillor, 20, suspended over claims she called Hitler 'the greatest man in history' in latest anti-Semitic scandal to hit Corbyn's party

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html

    How some of these vile nutters ever got through even a basic vetting process....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2016
    Danny565 said:

    Labour councillor, 20, suspended over claims she called Hitler 'the greatest man in history' in latest anti-Semitic scandal to hit Corbyn's party

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html

    How some of these vile nutters ever got through even a basic vetting process....
    You would have thought that all political parties might employ some people to have a check up on people's social media accounts etc, as all parties have nutters. If you go for a job these days, employers normally do some checks along these lines.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    This is a very good thread.

    I think we've all possibly become suckered into thinking it doesn't matter now if a Tory leader is a privileged rich Etonian, because Cameron pulled off a stunning success last year. However, some of that success was built on two other factors: 1. a coalition that was a very good Government (god I miss it) and 2. Ed Miliband was absolutely and unremittingly awful

    The Tories generally don't win with toffs and that's the meme to which I think we'll now return after this tax fiasco.

    So Mike Smithson is right. Place your bets on those of humble stock.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Dugdale and Davidson are publishing their tax returns- will Nicola? As Stephen Daisley observes "The bastards. They're doing that opposition thing again. And during an election too. #forshame
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Sorry we are not currently accepting comments on this article.
    I wonder why *innocent face*
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Why did Dave disclose the £200k gift from his mother?

    It wouldn't have gone on any income tax return.

    It would only be declared on the Inheritance Tax form if she died within 7 years.

    I guess he was worried it might come out but who would ever know? It would basically require an employee at his bank to go through his 2011 bank statements and leak it. Presumably he felt that could happen and he couldn't chance it.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    If the people in question hadn't taken out a super injunction would anyone care? I know I certainly wouldn't. I've not one iota of interest in the stupid story. That and the Archbishop's story remind me how bizarrely Victorian the Brits can sometimes be.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Crabb has the personality of a wet lettuce leaf. I cannot imagine him as any leader.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    immigration officers allowed to hack phones

    Home Office granted powers to snoop on detention centre refugees three years ago by amendment to 20-year-old Police Act

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/10/immigration-officials-can-hack-refugees-phones
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited April 2016
    As I think someone else on the previous thread said, the next headline will surely be "David Cameron avoids income tax on £10k a year"
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    MikeL said:

    Why did Dave disclose the £200k gift from his mother?

    It wouldn't have gone on any income tax return.

    It would only be declared on the Inheritance Tax form if she died within 7 years.

    I guess he was worried it might come out but who would ever know? It would basically require an employee at his bank to go through his 2011 bank statements and leak it. Presumably he felt that could happen and he couldn't chance it.

    He said he wanted to be totally open and transparent about it (I think those were his words).
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Taxi for Dave.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Danny565 said:

    Labour councillor, 20, suspended over claims she called Hitler 'the greatest man in history' in latest anti-Semitic scandal to hit Corbyn's party

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html

    How some of these vile nutters ever got through even a basic vetting process....
    She was correct about Ed though
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    Is that the end of Billy Elliott, then?

    They were selling tickets in the half-price booth at Leicester Square at 5:30 for it.

    I went to Kinky Boots instead, which was excellent but for an added tedious Traditional Man redeemed by Transgender Man because the latter is more Manly narrative.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    A crazy decision by Cameron in my opinion. He should know that he's now declared open season on himself and our insatiable press will now crucify him. It could be that he just resigns. Why would someone who is leaving anyway and has done nothing wrong put himself and his family through this?

    Mike says the pressure will now be on others particularly those standing for the Tory leadership. I'm not sure. Our feral press has an agenda. Those who share it like Johnson get a free pass. Those who don't like Osborne and Cameron get the treatmet.

    Altogether a very ugly episode in British politics.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    edited April 2016
    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Why did Dave disclose the £200k gift from his mother?

    It wouldn't have gone on any income tax return.

    It would only be declared on the Inheritance Tax form if she died within 7 years.

    I guess he was worried it might come out but who would ever know? It would basically require an employee at his bank to go through his 2011 bank statements and leak it. Presumably he felt that could happen and he couldn't chance it.

    He said he wanted to be totally open and transparent about it (I think those were his words).
    MIght he be doing it because he believes he is clean, and is angry, on this, and sane Labour may be vulnerable on the lifetime gift thing?

    Corbyn and MaoDonnell are, no matter how you like their style, self-marginalised mad people politically, but eg Hilary Benn received a house - worth several times Mr Cameron's - as a lifetime gift which avoided Inheritance Tax in 2005 iirc. What of the rest of the Shad Cab?

    What about the others? Will dodgy expenses come up again? Every MP who went to prison was Labour. What about Blair's Unlimited Partnership (?) setup, or the Office of Mr and Mrs Broon?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Roger said:

    A crazy decision by Cameron in my opinion. He should know that he's now declared open season on himself and our insatiable press will now crucify him. It could be that he just resigns. Why would someone who is leaving anyway and has done nothing wrong put himself and his family through this?

    Mike says the pressure will now be on others particularly those standing for the Tory leadership. I'm not sure. Our feral press has an agenda. Those who share it like Johnson get a free pass. Those who don't like Osborne and Cameron get the treatmet.

    Altogether a very ugly episode in British politics.

    It all comes down to the referendum. There are some 'Conservatives' (and they only deserve that term in the loosest of terms) who would rather usher in a Labour Corbynite government than lose the referendum, even though Corbyn would do much more damage to the country that the EU ever has. They therefore feel free to attack their party's best asset.

    Cameron's going to suffer from the problem Labour and Brown had seven years ago: a leader becomes impotent when numerous noisy elements in his party start publicly against them. It gives the media oxygen for any of the inevitable fires that engulf leaders from time to time.

    As ever, there is a madness in the Conservative party when it comes to the EU. It strikes deep to the soul of the party, and it had to reveal itself again sometime.

    In addition, there are some Davisites who have never forgiven posho Cameron for beating their hero Davis. They have been convinced for eleven years that they have the wrong leader, and hate him and his policies. The two election victories and the defenestration of the disastrous Brown count for nothing.

    It's madness, pure and simple. All I can say is thank God Davis never got anywhere near power.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    edited April 2016
    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    And journalists criticising Cameron. And then everyone.

    This is just a small step in the gradual erosion of privacy.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited April 2016
    Actually even though Cameron has published the ludicrous headlines out of the Mirror etc will ensure that damage continues. Many of the population don't know the difference between "avoid" and "evade" ........just like a number of posters on this forum.

    That's what his opponents are banking on and it is disingenuous for them to be claiming for him to be open an honest when they themselves are most certainly not being so.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    edited April 2016

    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    And journalists criticising Cameron. And then everyone.

    This is just a small step in the gradual erosion of privacy.
    Perhaps now that folk memory of life before the Thatcher tax reforms is fading we need to have a properly open debate about tax.

    The Fair Tax Campaign goofballs receive far too much attention for their crazy proposals for government control of everything. Time to talk about it all?

    Or should we bring back exchange controls etc.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    It's not unreasonable to make strict rules to ensure the propriety of our leading politicians and it's reasonable that newspapers investigate if those rules look like they've been broken.

    But the article above shows what happens when you let someone with ill intent or too ignorant to understand loose on your financial affairs. His mother gave him a gift of £200,000. It's legal and it signifies nothing. What it was doing on a tax return I cant imagine.

    I'm beginning to feel really sorry for Cameron. I think he's a naif. He lays bare his entire financial dealings only to find that a gift from his mother has now been twisted into a story about how she was trying to beat inheritance tax.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Roger said:

    It's not unreasonable to make strict rules to ensure the propriety of our leading politicians and it's reasonable that newspapers investigate if those rules look like they've been broken.

    But the article above shows what happens when you let someone with ill intent or too ignorant to understand loose on your financial affairs. His mother gave him a gift of £200,000. It's legal and it signifies nothing. What it was doing on a tax return I cant imagine.

    I'm beginning to feel really sorry for Cameron. I think he's a naif. He lays bare his entire financial dealings only to find that a gift from his mother has now been twisted into a story about how she was trying to beat inheritance tax.

    There's one small glimmer of opportunity for the Conservatives in this: the attacks on Cameron via his mum and dad leave Corbyn over to similar attacks over his family, especially his brother's views. There should be a rich vein to exploit there.

    Corbyn and Labour cannot say family should be left out of it now.

    But where are the Lib Dems? Please Farron, get your act together ...
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited April 2016
    Roger said:

    A crazy decision by Cameron in my opinion. He should know that he's now declared open season on himself and our insatiable press will now crucify him. It could be that he just resigns. Why would someone who is leaving anyway and has done nothing wrong put himself and his family through this?

    Mike says the pressure will now be on others particularly those standing for the Tory leadership. I'm not sure. Our feral press has an agenda. Those who share it like Johnson get a free pass. Those who don't like Osborne and Cameron get the treatmet.

    Altogether a very ugly episode in British politics.

    Because he dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't in equal measure and even up thread " yeah he pub
    I shed but not all". I even saw one headline yesterday saying .... Yeah but even if his tax return is good what about his wife's fortune?

    No win situation. Sad given no one has shown a single iota of illegal activity and nothing that any of us can do clearly stated on the HMRC website
  • "Rich bloke's family uses legal means to protect and enhance the family fortune" won't sell many papers, though, will it?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    As I think someone else on the previous thread said, the next headline will surely be "David Cameron avoids income tax on £10k a year"

    I don't think he does. The personal allowance is clawed back completely by £136000 income. Cameron is one of the few percent not benefiting from raised personal allowances.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136

    But where are the Lib Dems? Please Farron, get your act together ...

    If Lab and Con are throwing mud at each other that feels like an excellent opportunity for the LibDems to STFU.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    Someone on here pointed out just before the last election that there were more millionaires and public / private school educated members on the Labour front bench than the Tories.
    Yet the Tories were being cast as the toff party?
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    Moses_ said:

    Roger said:

    A crazy decision by Cameron in my opinion. He should know that he's now declared open season on himself and our insatiable press will now crucify him. It could be that he just resigns. Why would someone who is leaving anyway and has done nothing wrong put himself and his family through this?

    Mike says the pressure will now be on others particularly those standing for the Tory leadership. I'm not sure. Our feral press has an agenda. Those who share it like Johnson get a free pass. Those who don't like Osborne and Cameron get the treatmet.

    Altogether a very ugly episode in British politics.

    Because he dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't in equal measure and even up thread " yeah he pub
    I shed but not all". I even saw one headline yesterday saying .... Yeah but even if his tax return is good what about his wife's fortune?

    No win situation. Sad given no one has shown a single iota of illegal activity and nothing that any of us can do clearly stated on the HMRC website
    The middle class elitists on pb.com throw up their arms in horror and miss the point.

    Even if he has done nothing illegal (yet to be proven) he has campaigned for several years about people paying their income tax. The hypocrisy and obfuscation of the man is a stink under most people's noses.

    Oh and he's a rich git which is even more annoying.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Moses_ said:

    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    Someone on here pointed out just before the last election that there were more millionaires and public / private school educated members on the Labour front bench than the Tories.
    Yet the Tories were being cast as the toff party?
    There are certainly good numbers who have benefited from tax planning.

    Newspaper owners should be careful though. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...

    It is all very unedifying.

  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    And journalists criticising Cameron. And then everyone.

    This is just a small step in the gradual erosion of privacy.

    Oh don't be so ridiculous. If you stand for public office you forfeit the right to keep your tax affairs private.

    Tsk.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    It's been a long time since a fairly innocuous story became a multi-day nightmare like this.

    We invested £15k has turned into disclosure of tax returns and lots more digging. I'd have my head in my hands right now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Estobar said:

    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    And journalists criticising Cameron. And then everyone.

    This is just a small step in the gradual erosion of privacy.
    Oh don't be so ridiculous. If you stand for public office you forfeit the right to keep your tax affairs private.

    Tsk.
    'Tsk' sounds like something a middle-class elitist would say. ;)

    What other things do they forfeit in your mind? And once a special case is made for them, why not extend it to others: I'm sure there's plenty of your 'middle class elitists' in the media who are being hypocrites, avoiding tax and doing dodgy things. Then how about FTSE 100/250 management, then shareholders, etc, etc.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I wonder which of his potential successors David Cameron was most trying to handicap by deciding to release his tax returns?
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    edited April 2016
    The real problem with all this is that it reminds us how privileged Cameron is. We knew it, of course, but went along with his 'Call me Dave' meme. He seemed a decent enough leftist Tory, especially when kept in place by Clegg. (NB, no Josias he didn't win two elections.) What we didn't enquire about we put on the back burner. We knew he was wealthy but lacked details to annoy us.

    200k gifts from Mummy and 300k inheritance from Daddy are a long way from most people's livelihoods. On top of shielding himself from tax, despite having pledged to stop that sort of antic, just makes him even more remote from us ordinary folk.

    Mike's right. The Tories will have to choose a down-to-earth leader or they're back out of power for 20 years.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm in favour, incidentally, of universal publication of tax returns. It would be liberating.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    Estobar said:

    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    And journalists criticising Cameron. And then everyone.

    This is just a small step in the gradual erosion of privacy.
    Oh don't be so ridiculous. If you stand for public office you forfeit the right to keep your tax affairs private.

    Tsk.
    'Tsk' sounds like something a middle-class elitist would say. ;)

    What other things do they forfeit in your mind? And once a special case is made for them, why not extend it to others: I'm sure there's plenty of your 'middle class elitists' in the media who are being hypocrites, avoiding tax and doing dodgy things. Then how about FTSE 100/250 management, then shareholders, etc, etc.
    MPs and members of the clergy. If you can't do as I do not do as I say you shouldn't be standing for public office.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Estobar said:

    Moses_ said:

    Roger said:

    A crazy decision by Cameron in my opinion. He should know that he's now declared open season on himself and our insatiable press will now crucify him. It could be that he just resigns. Why would someone who is leaving anyway and has done nothing wrong put himself and his family through this?

    Mike says the pressure will now be on others particularly those standing for the Tory leadership. I'm not sure. Our feral press has an agenda. Those who share it like Johnson get a free pass. Those who don't like Osborne and Cameron get the treatmet.

    Altogether a very ugly episode in British politics.

    Because he dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't in equal measure and even up thread " yeah he pub
    I shed but not all". I even saw one headline yesterday saying .... Yeah but even if his tax return is good what about his wife's fortune?

    No win situation. Sad given no one has shown a single iota of illegal activity and nothing that any of us can do clearly stated on the HMRC website
    The middle class elitists on pb.com throw up their arms in horror and miss the point.

    Even if he has done nothing illegal (yet to be proven) he has campaigned for several years about people paying their income tax. The hypocrisy and obfuscation of the man is a stink under most people's noses.

    Oh and he's a rich git which is even more annoying.
    Bollox ....total absolute unmitigated bollox. He has paid his income tax in full. Regrettably you are one that does not understand the tax system as stated on HMRC website. Either way its your last sentence that sums up your entire rational.

    " oh and he's a rich git which is even more annoying"

    It's really the Politics of envy isn't it? Well if you Don't like it then why not just simply raise your keyboard warrior frame from that comfy armchair of yours and do something about it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    If the press put half the spotlight focus upon policies that they place upon politicians then we'd have a much better run country.

    Who'd be a politician?

    On humbleness, this advantages future prime ministers Priti Patel and Justine Greening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priti_Patel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justine_Greening#Early_life
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    MattW said:

    I'd love to see a ranking of how long each member of the Caninet and Shadow Cabinet has needed to earn £1m counting back.

    Should be amusing just from published sources.

    Add in Ken Livingstone for LOLs.

    And journalists criticising Cameron. And then everyone.

    This is just a small step in the gradual erosion of privacy.
    Oh don't be so ridiculous. If you stand for public office you forfeit the right to keep your tax affairs private.

    Tsk.
    'Tsk' sounds like something a middle-class elitist would say. ;)

    What other things do they forfeit in your mind? And once a special case is made for them, why not extend it to others: I'm sure there's plenty of your 'middle class elitists' in the media who are being hypocrites, avoiding tax and doing dodgy things. Then how about FTSE 100/250 management, then shareholders, etc, etc.
    MPs and members of the clergy. If you can't do as I do not do as I say you shouldn't be standing for public office.
    They're just your opinions. Once you start making special cases it becomes hard to exclude what others see as special cases. Certainly I can see more reason for journalists to be treated in the same manner than clergy.

    And I repeat my first question: what else do they forfeit?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016
    Estobar said:

    The real problem with all this is that it reminds us how privileged Cameron is. We knew it, of course, but went along with his 'Call me Dave' meme. He seemed a decent enough leftist Tory, especially when kept in place by Clegg. (NB, no Josias he didn't win two elections.) What we didn't enquire about we put on the back burner. We knew he was wealthy but lacked details to annoy us.

    200k gifts from Mummy and 300k inheritance from Daddy are a long way from most people's livelihoods. On top of shielding himself from tax, despite having pledged to stop that sort of antic, just makes him even more remote from us ordinary folk.

    Mike's right. The Tories will have to choose a down-to-earth leader or they're back out of power for 20 years.

    I don't think so.

    Politicians are an odd bunch, and are not expected to be like normal people. Cameron was known to be wealthy when he became leader and he brought the party back to government. It doesn't seem to have held him back.

    Similarly Jezzas romantic motorcycle tour of East Germany is just a curious illustration of how different politicians are from ordinary experience.

    I think Cameron will ride this out fine, and it doesn't really weigh much in the balance of who is next Tory leader.

    People who roast babies and kick crutches away from the disabled are not expected to play nice with their monies.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Guardianistas are spitting feathers today..The PNMM who earns less in a year than most footballers do in a week has been kicked around the political football field for a week..and finally we get his tax returns..which are clean.
    It is obvious that most lefties cannot grasp the fact that some people come from a wealthy background,Cameron and his wife did...so get over it.
    Wanna discuss Wedgie Benns sons frantic efforts to avoid IHT..
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited April 2016
    Estobar said:

    The real problem with all this is that it reminds us how privileged Cameron is. We knew it, of course, but went along with his 'Call me Dave' meme. He seemed a decent enough leftist Tory, especially when kept in place by Clegg. (NB, no Josias he didn't win two elections.) What we didn't enquire about we put on the back burner. We knew he was wealthy but lacked details to annoy us.

    200k gifts from Mummy and 300k inheritance from Daddy are a long way from most people's livelihoods. On top of shielding himself from tax, despite having pledged to stop that sort of antic, just makes him even more remote from us ordinary folk.

    Mike's right. The Tories will have to choose a down-to-earth leader or they're back out of power for 20 years.

    You can't help yourself can you? Should change your name from Escobar to Excavator the size of this pit of green envy you are digging for yourself.

    Any ways....Of out to make some money and become a privileged , out of touch, middle class elitist :wink:
  • I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    In my view when Cameron goes it will be a 3 way race between Osborne, Boris and Gove, and I would expect Boris to win by a mile. My personal choice would be Osborne as the continuity candidate.

    As a sideline I was asking TSE which constituency he was offered to stand in but I can't see his reply - does anyone know?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I wonder which of his potential successors David Cameron was most trying to handicap by deciding to release his tax returns?

    (Were you at Aintree yesterday? I see your firm was a sponsor.)

    Boris is fairly clean, isn't he? It came out in a tax spat with Ken, iirc, that while Boris is paid a small fortune as a writer, he does not try to avoid income tax. So the answer is probably: one of the others.

    Your question is perhaps the wrong way round. Given the disproportionate defensiveness on the part of the Prime Minister and CCHQ over what started as a pretty innocuous story, surely the question is what or who else is David Cameron trying to protect?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    When even journalists are saying non-story...

    @faisalislam: On £200k maternal gift - asserting an "inheritance tax dodge" somewhat unfair - perhaps more unfair than Miliband Deed of Variation story...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    How long will it take the highest paid politician in the country to publish her return, and how many excuses will she come up with along the way?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    £200k? All I got was a jumper.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Estobar said:

    The real problem with all this is that it reminds us how privileged Cameron is. We knew it, of course, but went along with his 'Call me Dave' meme. He seemed a decent enough leftist Tory, especially when kept in place by Clegg. (NB, no Josias he didn't win two elections.) What we didn't enquire about we put on the back burner. We knew he was wealthy but lacked details to annoy us.

    200k gifts from Mummy and 300k inheritance from Daddy are a long way from most people's livelihoods. On top of shielding himself from tax, despite having pledged to stop that sort of antic, just makes him even more remote from us ordinary folk.

    Mike's right. The Tories will have to choose a down-to-earth leader or they're back out of power for 20 years.

    I don't think so.

    Politicians are an odd bunch, and are not expected to be like normal people. Cameron was known to be wealthy when he became leader and he brought the party back to government. It doesn't seem to have held him back.

    Similarly Jezzas romantic motorcycle tour of East Germany is just a curious illustration of how different politicians are from ordinary experience.

    I think Cameron will ride this out fine, and it doesn't really weigh much in the balance of who is next Tory leader.

    People who roast babies and kick crutches away from the disabled are not expected to play nice with their monies.
    I agree with most of this. One bit I don't agree with: it will weigh in the balance of who is next Tory leader. Anyone who has been fiscally creative in the past will be a dead duck.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Jonathan, to be fair, it's a bit greedy of you to expect Mrs Cameron to give you £200,000.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Incidentally, if you prefer horror to comedy, do pre-order (comes out 12 April) The Haunting of Lake Manor Hotel, an anthology in which I have a short story:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haunting-Lake-Manor-Hotel-ebook/dp/B01DQEDAEE/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: HMRC regulation on gifts also says no tax due on X-Mas or Wedding presents. If I give someone a X-Mas present am I now a tax cheat?
  • The Sunday Times reporting that Gove will be promoted to Deputy PM post referendum.

    The suggestion that Gove will be promoted will fuel calls for him to stand for the leadership in the event of a vote for Brexit. Some of his friends believe he would be prepared to fight Johnson for the job if he could lead Britain out of the EU.

    One said: “Michael used to want to be prime minister until his popularity collapsed around three years ago. He wanted to take Britain out of the EU. He is in politics to do things. If there is a vote to remain, does he want to be PM? Probably not. But if we do vote to leave, who is going to handle the negotiations — Boris? I don’t think so.”
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Scott_P said:

    How long will it take the highest paid politician in the country to publish her return, and how many excuses will she come up with along the way?

    Dugdale and Davidson have published theirs, the so-and-sos!

    Perhaps one of our friends on the left can clarify- it's now open season on anyone who has taken steps to legally reduce their tax liability- correct?
  • Scott_P said:

    When even journalists are saying non-story...

    @faisalislam: On £200k maternal gift - asserting an "inheritance tax dodge" somewhat unfair - perhaps more unfair than Miliband Deed of Variation story...

    This is the journalist who started the fuss in the first place. I think he may be rowing back to save his Sky News career now he knows he has overstretched his ability and intelligence here by looking for a cheap headline. He didn't think through that smearing the Prime Minister may not be the best way of enhancing a career as a political correspondent.

    All round a nasty piece of work, out of the John Craig / Joey Jones mode. Even Sophie Ridge has started to hide her lefty views post Corbyn.
  • The Sunday Times reporting that Gove will be promoted to Deputy PM post referendum.

    The suggestion that Gove will be promoted will fuel calls for him to stand for the leadership in the event of a vote for Brexit. Some of his friends believe he would be prepared to fight Johnson for the job if he could lead Britain out of the EU.

    One said: “Michael used to want to be prime minister until his popularity collapsed around three years ago. He wanted to take Britain out of the EU. He is in politics to do things. If there is a vote to remain, does he want to be PM? Probably not. But if we do vote to leave, who is going to handle the negotiations — Boris? I don’t think so.”

    Hi you didn't respond to my question yesterday. I wondered which Constituency you were asked to stand in (you mentioned it yesterday)?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jonathan said:

    £200k? All I got was a jumper.

    If it's a decent jumper next year you might be the lucky winner of the Grand National.
  • Other potential reshuffle possibilities with betting implications according to The Sunday Times

    Ozzy to The Foreign Office

    Hammond to the Treasury

    Boris either gets Health or Defence

    Other option is

    Ozzy stays at the Treasury

    May to the FCO

    Boris to the Home Office
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    ydoethur said:

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
    Still is, isn't he?

    Boris to Northern Ireland...
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    This is going to cause a stir... ICM for Channel 4 documentary, 52% of Muslims surveyed thought homosexuality should be illegal. Well worth reading whole article with Trevor Philips. He's downbeat.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/half-of-muslims-say-gays-should-be-outlawed-cb5bcdtcx
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited April 2016

    Other potential reshuffle possibilities with betting implications according to The Sunday Times

    Ozzy to The Foreign Office

    Hammond to the Treasury

    Boris either gets Health or Defence

    Other option is

    Ozzy stays at the Treasury

    May to the FCO

    Boris to the Home Office

    The first two would be very good moves.

    Any one of the last four would be the worst mistake since Richard III exposed his flank to the Stanleys at Bosworth field.
  • ydoethur said:

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
    I meant Prime Ministers rather than leaders. Has there ever been a Jewish Prime Minister?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
    Still is, isn't he?

    Boris to Northern Ireland...
    Give that teacher a D :smile:

    Would the idea be that they spend so much time laughing at him they haven't time for anything else, or that they finally get to agree on something - how much they hate Boris?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Boy, Disraeli.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
    I meant Prime Ministers rather than leaders. Has there ever been a Jewish Prime Minister?
    Disraeli.

    Up for debate :

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10761635/Britains-first-Jewish-PM-does-Disraeli-have-the-title.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
    Still is, isn't he?

    Boris to Northern Ireland...
    Boris as special minister to Liverpool ... ;)
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder when Mike et al will stop tipping Sajid Javid as next Conservative party leader (which will be a few years yet). The Conservatives are not Labour, they will choose someone who can actually win an election. This will be a white, middle aged Christian man - the only leader of recent decades who didn't fit this stereotype was Thatcher.

    Not quite the only one. Howard was Jewish.
    Still is, isn't he?

    Boris to Northern Ireland...
    Give that teacher a D :smile:

    Would the idea be that they spend so much time laughing at him they haven't time for anything else, or that they finally get to agree on something - how much they hate Boris?
    Could do worse. The story goes that Paisley and Adams looked at each other after meeting Mo Mowlem on her first day in the job, and each said to the other "I know I'm mad and you're madder but, boy, we're just beginners compared to her"...

  • Mr. Boy, Disraeli.

    You got there before Google! But I note Disraeli was "swapped" to Christianity by his father. From the current list of MPs Zac Goldsmith looks the best bet to be first Jewish PM.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,761
    Am I alone in being surprised at the relatively modest sums involved here? I thought Cameron was genuinely rich. He clearly isn't, he is very comfortably well off but the multi millionaire image has been reduced to something considerably more modest.

    I am really surprised that he only had £140K of shares to sell when organising himself to become PM. Not much sign of tax planning in that family despite the claims about avoiding IHT. Running 6 years income together to claim someone earned £1m is almost Brownian in its dishonesty, as is adding in his wife's share of the income.

    On that basis I am not entirely sure I agree with the premise of the thread. If moderately successful, pretty comfortable people like this are somehow deemed too prosperous to be our PM we are in trouble.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    Mr. Boy, Disraeli.

    Disraeli of course was however technically also a Christian (baptised at 13).

    Until Hague came along, of course, every Conservative leader since the title was created in 1922 had also been PM. And only 2 de facto leaders before that time had not been PM - Northcote in the 1880s, and Chamberlain in 1921.
  • Disraeli was a lapsed Jew.
  • ydoethur said:

    Other potential reshuffle possibilities with betting implications according to The Sunday Times

    Ozzy to The Foreign Office

    Hammond to the Treasury

    Boris either gets Health or Defence

    Other option is

    Ozzy stays at the Treasury

    May to the FCO

    Boris to the Home Office

    The first two would be very good moves.

    Any one of the last four would be the worst mistake since Richard III exposed his flank to the Stanleys at Bosworth field.
    I'm on Team make sure Boris becomes Northern Ireland Secretary
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,761
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    £200k? All I got was a jumper.

    If it's a decent jumper next year you might be the lucky winner of the Grand National.
    My daughter had each way bets on first and second yesterday, the winner at 40-1. Only modest sums but she did really well. I will be asking her for tips next year.
  • This is going to cause a stir... ICM for Channel 4 documentary, 52% of Muslims surveyed thought homosexuality should be illegal. Well worth reading whole article with Trevor Philips. He's downbeat.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/half-of-muslims-say-gays-should-be-outlawed-cb5bcdtcx

    The only surprise here is that it is as low as 52%.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Redpeter99: "Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are in India"

    "Mumbai?"

    "She pays for everything else but the taxpayer is funding this trip"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    DavidL said:

    Am I alone in being surprised at the relatively modest sums involved here? I thought Cameron was genuinely rich. He clearly isn't, he is very comfortably well off but the multi millionaire image has been reduced to something considerably more modest.

    I am really surprised that he only had £140K of shares to sell when organising himself to become PM. Not much sign of tax planning in that family despite the claims about avoiding IHT. Running 6 years income together to claim someone earned £1m is almost Brownian in its dishonesty, as is adding in his wife's share of the income.

    On that basis I am not entirely sure I agree with the premise of the thread. If moderately successful, pretty comfortable people like this are somehow deemed too prosperous to be our PM we are in trouble.

    Perhaps it was put together by Owen Jones:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSC3RMstJl8
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Boy, doubt that, to be honest. Goldsmith is a wet lettuce.
  • Mr. Boy, doubt that, to be honest. Goldsmith is a wet lettuce.

    I think you would have said that about Cameron and Osborne when they were younger. I don't think he will make it, but he is the best from admittedly a fairly weak list.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Scott_P said:

    How long will it take the highest paid politician in the country to publish her return, and how many excuses will she come up with along the way?

    Dugdale and Davidson have published theirs, the so-and-sos!

    Perhaps one of our friends on the left can clarify- it's now open season on anyone who has taken steps to legally reduce their tax liability- correct?
    You need to ask your friends on the right: is this a non-story? If so then Tory spinners from CCHQ down need to STFU because continually throwing up chaff keeps it in the headlines.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Boy, actually (until quite recently) I was among the stronger Cameron defenders here. As for Osborne, I think he's sharp, but recently his arrogance and complacency is eclipsing his competence.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016

    Disraeli was a lapsed Jew.

    His parents converted to Anglicanism. He was ethnically Jewish but not religiously so.

    Not that it matters much. If the Victorians were not that bothered then why should anyone else be?

    Religion plays much less of a place in politics here than across the pond. Thank God!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Dr. Foxinsox, for now.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Boy, Disraeli.

    You got there before Google! But I note Disraeli was "swapped" to Christianity by his father. From the current list of MPs Zac Goldsmith looks the best bet to be first Jewish PM.
    Ed Miliband fully expected to be our first Jewish Prime Minister -- up until 10pm, 7 May last year.
  • Disraeli was a lapsed Jew.

    His parents converted to Anglicanism. He was ethnically Jewish but not religiously so.

    Not that it matters much. If the Victorians were not that bothered then why should anyone else be?

    Religion plays much less of a place in politics here than across the pond. Thank God!
    Had Ed Miliband become PM (stop sniggering), the only two Jewish born PMs we had would have been an Anglican convert and an atheist.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    This is going to cause a stir... ICM for Channel 4 documentary, 52% of Muslims surveyed thought homosexuality should be illegal. Well worth reading whole article with Trevor Philips. He's downbeat.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/half-of-muslims-say-gays-should-be-outlawed-cb5bcdtcx

    The only surprise here is that it is as low as 52%.
    Maybe the survey only reached the ones who could speak English?
  • Mr. Boy, actually (until quite recently) I was among the stronger Cameron defenders here. As for Osborne, I think he's sharp, but recently his arrogance and complacency is eclipsing his competence.

    Cameron is the greatest PM we have had since Thatcher. What is more he won't be tainted when he steps down (too early in my opinion).

    His issue currently is that he cares about his family. He showed that when Labour attacked him over the NHS and his son - and won. He showed that when Labour attacked his wife in the evil social media attacks - and won. Now Labour are attacking his late father he is responding and will win. His responses to this have been a result of protecting his father's reputation first and his own position second.

    The left wing are struggling with the concept that Cameron may place his own family loyalties above political correctness; Miliband demonstrated perfectly this is not in the left wing playbook.
This discussion has been closed.