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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LEAVE moves to its best position yet in the ICM weekly EURe

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LEAVE moves to its best position yet in the ICM weekly EURef poll

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  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited April 2016
    First ....

    Like Mrs JackW in Asprey Bond Street !! .. :sunglasses:
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    This is headed for the courts innit?

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/719981425882226689
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    Looks like Vote Leave have announced events for Friday and Saturday from which we can infer they think they have/will become the official Leave side.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Vote out you leave grassroots
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT
    If this heads to the courts then it is clear that Banks is in this for his ego and not to win.

    Whichever campaign gets the designation, both campaigns need to accept it and put 100% undivided attention into winning the referendum. Nothing else (should) matter.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    FPT:

    Re the Netherlands and the Ukraine: it has apparently been raitified by every state - including the Netherlands. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement

    Apparently, the treaty came into force on 1 February 2016 when the Belgian parliament ratified it, being the 30th entity to finish the ratification process.

    It seems incomprehensible to me that the Dutch would ratify an agreement and then have a referendum on it.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited April 2016
    JackW said:

    First ....

    Like Mrs JackW in Asprey Bond Street !! .. :sunglasses:

    ICM = Squeaky Bum time for your ARSE? :smiley:
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    If there's one thing our legal system loves and encourages, it's mendacious, vexatious litigation.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited April 2016
    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    #PullThePlugTuesday

    :smiley:
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Scott_P said:
    I think the funniest bit is the nod to real life in that even with such a ridiculous scenario, the only person who would be interested would claim not to be satisfied.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    FPT @FrancisUrquhart

    Which part did you specifically disagree with? - the 1989 visit to SA with Kenneth Warren and Dr David Kelly?, or Thatcher signing the urgent operational requirement (UOR) document on her final day as PM? Or something else?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    rcs1000 said:


    It seems incomprehensible to me that the Dutch would ratify an agreement and then have a referendum on it.

    Odd to take a gamble that the turnout would be below 30% and it wouldn't matter, more risk than necessary. But then a vote which means nothing would certainly be symbolic, so maybe they felt it was appropriate.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    First ....

    Like Mrs JackW in Asprey Bond Street !! .. :sunglasses:

    ICM = Squeaky Bum time for your ARSE? :smiley:
    My ARSE most certainly isn't "squeaky" but emits a delicate rhapsody of joyous tunefulness.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    Seconded. Killer numbers indeed.
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    Hah, Corbyn is the anti-Midas

    Jeremy Corbyn admits failing to include state pension income on his hand-written tax return

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/jeremy-corbyn-admits-failing-to-include-state-pension-income-on/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    edited April 2016
    hunchman said:

    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?

    The side that finishes fourth in the Premier League gets shunted out of the Champions League and into the Europa League.

    Man City would take their place in the Champions League.

    Liverpool would also qualify for the Champs league.

    Maximum number of teams from anyone country in the Champs league is 5.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    hunchman said:

    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?

    The side that finishes fourth in the Premier League gets shunted out of the Champions League and into the Europa League.

    Man City would take their place in the Champions League.

    Liverpool would also qualify for the Champs league.

    Maximum number of teams from anyone country in the Champs league is 5.
    Thanks - hope that happens with Man Utd finishing 4th in that case!
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    edited April 2016
    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945
    kle4 said:

    Vote out you leave grassroots

    Leaves of Grass.

    Clearly Walt Whitman was a Eurosceptic :-)
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    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited April 2016
    I'm voting leave.

    Instinctively if feels like something I must do.

    I love the different countries of Europe and wish peace and prosperity to all but it bugs me - and it has always bugged me - to see smug, power hungry suits like Juncker and Schulz back slapping one another as if they are masters of the fucking universe, while sneering at us little people.

    Sod it..I'm for out. And I think we'll do just fine.

    PS - and for those who think I'm misinformed... yep, guilty as charged..But my vote still counts.

  • Options
    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?

    The side that finishes fourth in the Premier League gets shunted out of the Champions League and into the Europa League.

    Man City would take their place in the Champions League.

    Liverpool would also qualify for the Champs league.

    Maximum number of teams from anyone country in the Champs league is 5.
    Thanks - hope that happens with Man Utd finishing 4th in that case!
    Is the scenario Citeh fans would love and Man U fans fear.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    No one's in a blind panic. No one is smug, except me but that comes with always being right about things.

    I am intrigued by the referendum. From Leavers on here it sounds like their ideal situation is Leave followed by EEA/EFTA. "LeaveHQ" have a website dedicated to this.

    Now, whether you think it is 20% or 70% of EU laws and directives adopted by Norway as an EEU member, that still leaves the four freedoms and imposition of single market rules on the 44% of exports that we conduct with the EU.

    @Richard_Tyndall and @Philip_Thompson have given examples of the huge diminution of sovereignty that comes with membership of the EU (eg. nearly the tampon tax plus Gordon Brown's mad machinations on energy tax).

    So my position is that logically we should remain members of the EU because on balance we benefit from having a common trading area and the supposed egregious sovereignty violations I can live with. But I of course will respect the will of the British people whatever they choose. Just as I would have done if they had voted in EdM last year. We will manage and, luckily, I will be more insulated than many from any fallout from a decision which disadvantages our economy.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Leave will probably get a phone poll lead next.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Leave will probably get a phone poll lead next.

    They've already had one.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    First ....

    Like Mrs JackW in Asprey Bond Street !! .. :sunglasses:

    ICM = Squeaky Bum time for your ARSE? :smiley:
    My ARSE most certainly isn't "squeaky" but emits a delicate rhapsody of joyous tunefulness.
    Is that Ode to Joy or a Joyous Odour?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    kle4 said:

    Vote out you leave grassroots

    Leaves of Grass.

    Clearly Walt Whitman was a Eurosceptic :-)
    FPT without repeating your whole post about my misunderstanding of the EEA.

    I understand very clearly that in certain sectors we would be in a demonstrably worse position being in the EEA than being an EU member. We have rehearsed it many times on here but if we were in the EEA rather than the EU our financial services industry would be at a serious disadvantage. Of course you may not think that's important and you are allowed to think that but it is of no small concern to the country.
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited April 2016
    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:


    I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.

    I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.

    Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.

    Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
    So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
    Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
    And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
    http://leavehq.com/
    Nice. Thanks. So freedom of movement, 70% of EU laws, and abiding by all the regulations that apply to EU trade while having precious little influence in their formulation.

    At least that's clear. I hope The Leave Alliance gets the official nod on Thursday.
    We can only hope:

    https://twitter.com/minefornothing/status/714041298622160896
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    Fenster said:

    I'm voting leave.

    Instinctively if feels like something I must do.

    I love the different countries of Europe and wish peace and prosperity to all but it bugs me - and it has always bugged me - to see smug, power hungry suits like Juncker and Schulz back slapping one another as if they are masters of the fucking universe, while sneering at us little people.

    Sod it..I'm for out. And I think we'll do just fine.

    PS - and for those who think I'm misinformed... yep, guilty as charged..But my vote still counts.

    Q.F.T.
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Well as Martin Armstrong said, '2015.75 (1st October last year) was the peak in government'. People are openly revolting against their governments everywhere. There were big protests in Naples last week totally unreported here in the UK. The US election shows that. The rise of AfD in Germany shows that. The rise of nationalism in Scotland, Spain, Italy etc across Europe shows that. Everything is interlinked.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2016
    An interesting point about the local elections is that not only will we be able to compare them with 2012 but also, in many cases, with 2015. So we'll have swing and change figures compared to the general election in terms of popular votes.
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Fenster said:

    I'm voting leave.

    Instinctively if feels like something I must do.

    I love the different countries of Europe and wish peace and prosperity to all but it bugs me - and it has always bugged me - to see smug, power hungry suits like Juncker and Schulz back slapping one another as if they are masters of the fucking universe, while sneering at us little people.

    Sod it..I'm for out. And I think we'll do just fine.

    PS - and for those who think I'm misinformed... yep, guilty as charged..But my vote still counts.

    Well done Fenster. When I say to my European friends that I'm very pro-European but totally anti-EU they didn't get it even 5 years ago. They get it now. Speaking of which, I'm off to Budapest the weekend after next which I can't wait, looks a really interesting city to visit in so many ways.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    It's like a repeat of this:

    "Oh why did we lose the Referendum, if only Nick Clegg was against AV"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGP0jxj1-EQ

    They should have played that on GE night.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    No one's in a blind panic. No one is smug, except me but that comes with always being right about things.

    I am intrigued by the referendum. From Leavers on here it sounds like their ideal situation is Leave followed by EEA/EFTA. "LeaveHQ" have a website dedicated to this.

    Now, whether you think it is 20% or 70% of EU laws and directives adopted by Norway as an EEU member, that still leaves the four freedoms and imposition of single market rules on the 44% of exports that we conduct with the EU.

    @Richard_Tyndall and @Philip_Thompson have given examples of the huge diminution of sovereignty that comes with membership of the EU (eg. nearly the tampon tax plus Gordon Brown's mad machinations on energy tax).

    So my position is that logically we should remain members of the EU because on balance we benefit from having a common trading area and the supposed egregious sovereignty violations I can live with. But I of course will respect the will of the British people whatever they choose. Just as I would have done if they had voted in EdM last year. We will manage and, luckily, I will be more insulated than many from any fallout from a decision which disadvantages our economy.
    We have argued about two specific examples because you tried and failed to dispute them. There are many more which I have highlighted in the past but I suspect you will do your normal obfuscation on those as well.

    Nor are the single market rules 'imposed' on EEA members. They have input in the process from start to finish. You should stop believing the myths from Cameron and the Remainders.
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    DanSmith said:

    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
    I'm wary of a late swing to remain. The status quo is always favoured in referenda. Nobody in the leave campaign should be complacent in the slightest. We still need events dear boy, events to favour the leave campaign over the next 70 days or so.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited April 2016
    RodCrosby said:
    Have you seen this from comedy central ;-)

    Trump v sanders ,the guy who does trump had me in stiches - lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Poi5x0E2CM&nohtml5=False
  • Options
    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    hunchman said:

    DanSmith said:

    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
    I'm wary of a late swing to remain. The status quo is always favoured in referenda. Nobody in the leave campaign should be complacent in the slightest. We still need events dear boy, events to favour the leave campaign over the next 70 days or so.
    I agree, I place special emphasis on "at this stage". But Remain are going to need to pull the stops out, they have no momentum at this stage which is not a good place to be.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    Leave will probably get a phone poll lead next.

    They've already had one.
    From a proper pollster :D
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Pulpstar said:

    Leave will probably get a phone poll lead next.

    If they do then that will finally awaken the betting markets as to the direction of polling.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    AndyJS said:

    An interesting point about the local elections is that not only will we be able to compare them with 2012 but also, in many cases, with 2015. So we'll have swing and change figures compared to the general election in terms of popular votes.

    But the most relevant measure will be swing/change figures from 2011: the first year of the last electoral cycle.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?

    The side that finishes fourth in the Premier League gets shunted out of the Champions League and into the Europa League.

    Man City would take their place in the Champions League.

    Liverpool would also qualify for the Champs league.

    Maximum number of teams from anyone country in the Champs league is 5.
    Thanks - hope that happens with Man Utd finishing 4th in that case!
    Is the scenario Citeh fans would love and Man U fans fear.
    For Chelsea fans the Icing on the cake in addition to winning the Champions League against all the odds was denying Tottenham, who finished 4th, entry into the CL.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited April 2016
    FPT

    JeremyCorbyn4PM ‏@JeremyCorbyn4PM 13m13 minutes ago
    .@jeremycorbyn over-paid tax in the past year, say his office - declared £270 more than he should have for 2014/15

    So let's sum this up.

    The LOTO Having shouted the odds for over a week about someone who has followed the law then is found himself to have submitted his tax return late then takes a week to find a copy of the same tax return. Two days later after deciphering the return only to discover he "allegedly" appears to have paid too much tax over the year.....

    And Labour thinks this is good news and justifies there entire stance....... Seriously??

    Actually what it does is sum up Labours entire fiscal approach and total lack of responsibility where budgets and finance are involved.

    EDIT and still gets it wrong apparently by not including pensions.

    Couldn't make it up...
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    Speedy said:

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    It's like a repeat of this:

    "Oh why did we lose the Referendum, if only Nick Clegg was against AV"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGP0jxj1-EQ
    Ha, ha! But a more apposite comparison with Clegg is the massive poll surges he had during the debates of 2005, which vanished like fairy dust when people came to vote. Opinion polling is now just a glorified version of the 'Like' facility on the internet - facile, frivolous and with no predictive content of how people will actually behave.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2016
    Moses_ said:

    FPT

    JeremyCorbyn4PM ‏@JeremyCorbyn4PM 13m13 minutes ago
    .@jeremycorbyn over-paid tax in the past year, say his office - declared £270 more than he should have for 2014/15

    So let's sum this up.

    The LOTO Having shouted the odds for over a week about someone who has followed the law then is found himself to have submitted his tax return late then takes a week to find a copy of the same tax return. Two days later after deciphering the return only to discover he "allegedly" appears to have paid too much tax over the year.....

    And Labour thinks this is good news and justifies there entire stance....... Seriously??

    Actually what it does is sum up Labours entire fiscal approach and total lack of responsibility where budgets and finance are involved.

    EDIT and still gets it wrong apparently by not including pensions.

    Couldn't make it up...

    You missed this...
    Mr Corbyn, who turned 65 in May 2014, received a state pension of around £6,000 a year but did not include details of the income on the hand-written return he published on Monday.

    He also failed to declare on the form income from a pension from his time in local Government, although Labour insisted it had been taxed at source.

    Labour yesterday said that all tax due on his pensions had been paid and insisted that details of his income from his retirement funds had been included on a separate sheet.

    However accountants described the omission as "sloppy" and said that even if he has paid all tax his failure to declare the income amounted to a technical offence.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/jeremy-corbyn-admits-failing-to-include-state-pension-income-on/

    Moron.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    DanSmith said:

    hunchman said:

    DanSmith said:

    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
    I'm wary of a late swing to remain. The status quo is always favoured in referenda. Nobody in the leave campaign should be complacent in the slightest. We still need events dear boy, events to favour the leave campaign over the next 70 days or so.
    I agree, I place special emphasis on "at this stage". But Remain are going to need to pull the stops out, they have no momentum at this stage which is not a good place to be.
    It would be helpful to Remain if someone, anyone, could come up with a positive case.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited April 2016
    DanSmith said:

    hunchman said:

    DanSmith said:

    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
    I'm wary of a late swing to remain. The status quo is always favoured in referenda. Nobody in the leave campaign should be complacent in the slightest. We still need events dear boy, events to favour the leave campaign over the next 70 days or so.
    I agree, I place special emphasis on "at this stage". But Remain are going to need to pull the stops out, they have no momentum at this stage which is not a good place to be.
    Remain have been pushing scare stories for months now. That is all they have. We have had everything from needing to remain in the EU to protect us from North Korea to 3 million jobs will be lost if we leave.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016

    Speedy said:

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    It's like a repeat of this:

    "Oh why did we lose the Referendum, if only Nick Clegg was against AV"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGP0jxj1-EQ
    Ha, ha! But a more apposite comparison with Clegg is the massive poll surges he had during the debates of 2005, which vanished like fairy dust when people came to vote. Opinion polling is now just a glorified version of the 'Like' facility on the internet - facile, frivolous and with no predictive content of how people will actually behave.
    If you remember the NOtoAV campaign distributed leaflets with Nick Clegg's face.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/feb/05/av-get-clegg-campaign

    Now the Leave camp has 2 juicy faces to put on it's leaflets, one of Corbyn to be sent to safe Tory seats, and one of Cameron to be sent to safe Labour seats.

    That should do the trick.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    DanSmith said:

    hunchman said:

    DanSmith said:

    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
    I'm wary of a late swing to remain. The status quo is always favoured in referenda. Nobody in the leave campaign should be complacent in the slightest. We still need events dear boy, events to favour the leave campaign over the next 70 days or so.
    I agree, I place special emphasis on "at this stage". But Remain are going to need to pull the stops out, they have no momentum at this stage which is not a good place to be.
    It would be helpful to Remain if someone, anyone, could come up with a positive case.
    Absolutely. It is shocking that it is missing at this stage.

    I'm hopefully that less than 51% of the country will vote on fear alone. I certainly won't.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    I don't know if there is such a thing as BBC2+1 but I just caught the last 20 minutes of "Europe: Them or Us" with Nick Robinson.

    Very interesting, and not obviously biased, which surprised me.

    Heath interviewed admitting he covered up the true intent from Day One.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    edited April 2016

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    , ldisadvantages our economy.
    We have argued about two specific examples because you tried and failed to dispute them. There are many more which I have highlighted in the past but I suspect you will do your normal obfuscation on those as well.

    Nor are the single market rules 'imposed' on EEA members. They have input in the process from start to finish. You should stop believing the myths from Cameron and the Remainders.
    EEA members sit in on and are counselled on the early rounds of single market rules but have no input into later round or, crucially, voting and that is where the critical issues are often decided.

    As for the two examples, the tampon tax and VAT on energy. We won the first, you assume it is because of the EU referendum, and on energy tax, again, it is simply your assumption that Gordo chose 5% because that was the EU minimum. It looks hugely likely but is far from conclusive. Of course if we are in the realms of you taking Gordon Brown to be a political hero I may have to reassess your whole PB input.

    On financial services, of which I am going out on a limb to say I have a better understanding than you, the issue is far more straightforward. As an EU member we have an input at every stage including voting. We lobby hard to achieve a compromise which suits us best.

    As of the most recent EU legislatition, the ESMA MiFID/MiFIR Delegated Acts (https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2016/EN/3-2016-2031-EN-F1-1.PDF) the FCA had a huge input and effectively achieved what it wanted in key areas (I won't bore you which ones). Outside the EU I can't see that this would have happened.

    I have no idea but my guess is this is mirrored in other industrial and service sectors.

    So for all your Cry Freedom For Tampons, the harsh reality in areas which make a difference to the British public and the UK economy, is that we are on balance better off in the EU than out of it.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    MP_SE said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:


    I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.

    I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.

    Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.

    Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
    So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
    Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
    And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
    http://leavehq.com/
    Nice. Thanks. So freedom of movement, 70% of EU laws, and abiding by all the regulations that apply to EU trade while having precious little influence in their formulation.

    At least that's clear. I hope The Leave Alliance gets the official nod on Thursday.
    We can only hope:

    https://twitter.com/minefornothing/status/714041298622160896
    well well...I thought no-one would prefer that option. The 'wisdom' of PB exposed again...
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Fenster said:

    I'm voting leave.

    Instinctively if feels like something I must do.

    I love the different countries of Europe and wish peace and prosperity to all but it bugs me - and it has always bugged me - to see smug, power hungry suits like Juncker and Schulz back slapping one another as if they are masters of the fucking universe, while sneering at us little people.

    Sod it..I'm for out. And I think we'll do just fine.

    PS - and for those who think I'm misinformed... yep, guilty as charged..But my vote still counts.

    Good man.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Hah, Corbyn is the anti-Midas

    Jeremy Corbyn admits failing to include state pension income on his hand-written tax return

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/jeremy-corbyn-admits-failing-to-include-state-pension-income-on/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Can you just image the moral outrage of the left had this been Cameron. Not for Dave " it's just an oversight" oh no siree.....

    The sound of the red flag and socialist hammers and saws would be heard in the distance as they erect Dave's scaffold for use in the morning.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    , ldisadvantages our economy.
    We have argued about two specific examples because you tried and failed to dispute them. There are many more which I have highlighted in the past but I suspect you will do your normal obfuscation on those as well.

    Nor are the single market rules 'imposed' on EEA members. They have input in the process from start to finish. You should stop believing the myths from Cameron and the Remainders.
    EEA members sit in on and are counselled on the early rounds of single market rules but have no input into later round or, crucially, voting and that is where the critical issues are often decided. EEA members get no such access or influence.

    As for the two examples, the tampon tax and VAT on energy. We won the first, you assume it is because of the EU referendum, and on energy tax, again, it is simply your assumption that Gordo chose 5% because that was the EU minimum. It looks hugely likely but is far from conclusive. Of course if we are in the realms of you taking Gordon Brown to be a political hero I may have to reassess your whole PB input.

    On financial services, which I am going out on a limb to say I have a better understanding than you, the issue is far more straightforward. As an EU member we have an input at every stage including voting. We lobby hard to achieve a compromise which suits us best.

    As of the most recent EU legislatition, the ESMA MiFID/MiFIR Delegated Acts (https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2016/EN/3-2016-2031-EN-F1-1.PDF) the FCA had a huge input and effectively achieved what it wanted in key areas (I won't bore you which ones). Outside the EU I can't see that this would have happened.

    I have no idea but my guess is this is mirrored in other industrial and service sectors.

    So for all your Cry Freedom For Tampons, the harsh reality in areas which make a difference to the British public and the UK economy, is that we are on balance better off in the EU than out of it.
    Wrong. EEA members can instigate and take part in the formulation of all parts of new single market legislation except the final vote.

    And you are simply in denial about the 5% VAT on energy costs. Of course you are because it goes against your blinkered Eurofanaticism.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
    That isn't even in question. It'd be at least 65:35 to Leave.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Peston.. When you are reporting on prime time news wear a tie you scruffy git.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817

    DanSmith said:

    hunchman said:

    DanSmith said:

    Speedy said:

    On Topic.

    The 10/10 certainty to vote with ICM is very encouraging for Leave, Remain only take the lead with those 7/10 and under, same figures with the TNS poll.

    The certainty to vote question gives an 8 point lead for Leave in both ICM and TNS.
    With the ORB phone poll the 10/10 certainty makes a 7 point Remain lead into a tie.

    This of course tells us something that we already know, if turnout is lower than the GE then Leave get the upper hand, if it's higher then Remain get the upper hand.

    Look at the crosstabs, Remain are in big trouble, young people just aren't going to vote. I would make Leave clear favourite as this stage.
    I'm wary of a late swing to remain. The status quo is always favoured in referenda. Nobody in the leave campaign should be complacent in the slightest. We still need events dear boy, events to favour the leave campaign over the next 70 days or so.
    I agree, I place special emphasis on "at this stage". But Remain are going to need to pull the stops out, they have no momentum at this stage which is not a good place to be.
    It would be helpful to Remain if someone, anyone, could come up with a positive case.
    I saw MFI was at it today...
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Fenster said:

    I'm voting leave.

    Instinctively if feels like something I must do.

    I love the different countries of Europe and wish peace and prosperity to all but it bugs me - and it has always bugged me - to see smug, power hungry suits like Juncker and Schulz back slapping one another as if they are masters of the fucking universe, while sneering at us little people.

    Sod it..I'm for out. And I think we'll do just fine.

    PS - and for those who think I'm misinformed... yep, guilty as charged..But my vote still counts.

    Well done Fenster - that is exactly what this is all about.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
    That isn't even in question. It'd be at least 65:35 to Leave.
    If the cult of personality of the Cult of the Leader has such influence then referenda are nonsense.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    If nothing else, the sight of europhiles in a blind panic, on Twitter, on here and on various news sites, is a delicious joy, a positive balm to the soul.

    They have been so smug for so long. Now they suffer. Good.

    , ldisadvantages our economy.
    Wd in the past but I suspect you will do your normal obfuscation on those as well.

    Nor are the single market rules 'imposed' on EEA members. They have input in the process from start to finish. You should stop believing the myths from Cameron and the Remainders.
    EEA members sit in on and are counselled on the early rounds of single market rules but have no input into later round or, crucially, voting and that is where the critical issues are often decided. EEA members get no such access or influence.

    As for the two examples, the tampon tax and VAT on energy. We won the first, you assume it is because of the EU referendum, and on energy tax, again, it is simply your assumption that Gordo chose 5% because that was the EU minimum. It looks hugely likely but is far from conclusive. Of course if we are in the realms of you taking Gordon Brown to be a political hero I may have to reassess your whole PB input.

    On financial services, which I am going out on a limb to say I have a better understanding than you, the issue is far more straightforward. As an EU member we have an input at every stage including voting. We lobby hard to achieve a compromise which suits us best.

    As of the most recent EU legislatition, the ESMA MiFID/MiFIR Delegated Acts (https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/3/2016/EN/3-2016-2031-EN-F1-1.PDF) the FCA had a huge input and effectively achieved what it wanted in key areas (I won't bore you which ones). Outside the EU I can't see that this would have happened.

    I have no idea but my guess is this is mirrored in other industrial and service sectors.

    So for all your Cry Freedom For Tampons, the harsh reality in areas which make a difference to the British public and the UK economy, is that we are on balance better off in the EU than out of it.
    Wrong. EEA members can instigate and take part in the formulation of all parts of new single market legislation except the final vote.

    And you are simply in denial about the 5% VAT on energy costs. Of course you are because it goes against your blinkered Eurofanaticism.
    You have no proof whatsoever about the reasons for the 5%. As I said it looks hugely likely but is far from conclusive proof.

    As for the EEA as it relates to FinReg, together with the final vote, don't embarrass yourself.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Infacts have a great graphic on their Facebook ads:

    http://infacts.org/farage-shouldnt-crow-ukraine-vote/
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    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?

    The side that finishes fourth in the Premier League gets shunted out of the Champions League and into the Europa League.

    Man City would take their place in the Champions League.

    Liverpool would also qualify for the Champs league.

    Maximum number of teams from anyone country in the Champs league is 5.
    Thanks - hope that happens with Man Utd finishing 4th in that case!
    Is the scenario Citeh fans would love and Man U fans fear.
    For Chelsea fans the Icing on the cake in addition to winning the Champions League against all the odds was denying Tottenham, who finished 4th, entry into the CL.
    The absence has meant we'll enjoy the CL so much more next season...
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
    That isn't even in question. It'd be at least 65:35 to Leave.
    And Big G from South Wales would be No.1 cheerleader for Leave.
  • Options
    Major Tory donors are preparing to fund a grassroots campaign to leave the European Union following David Cameron’s decision to spend millions of pounds on a pro-EU leaflet, the Telegraph can disclose.

    Members of the Midlands Industrial Council, a group of businessmen which have bankrolled the Conservative party for 20 years, are planning to donate between £4million and £5million to the anti-EU campaign over the next 10 weeks.

    It will be seen as an attempt to redress the balance following the Government’s controversial decision to spend £9.3million of taxpayers’ money in order to send a pro-EU leaflet to every home in Britain.

    David Wall, the Council's secretary, says his members are "incandescent with rage" over Mr Cameron's decision to send the leaflet.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/conservative-donors-prepare-to-sink-5million-into-brexit-campaig/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited April 2016
    I got my junk mail from HM Government today.

    Have got it ready to sling back on the post box with return address 10 Downing Street, Londong SW1 :smiley:
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    I'm curious to see what Remain do next, still favourites but the gap narrowing and momentum undoubtedly with Leave.

    They've done Project Fear and name calling, is Dave going for the "trust me, I'm a straight kind of guy" act next?
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    FPT

    JeremyCorbyn4PM ‏@JeremyCorbyn4PM 13m13 minutes ago
    .@jeremycorbyn over-paid tax in the past year, say his office - declared £270 more than he should have for 2014/15

    So let's sum this up.

    The LOTO Having shouted the odds for over a week about someone who has followed the law then is found himself to have submitted his tax return late then takes a week to find a copy of the same tax return. Two days later after deciphering the return only to discover he "allegedly" appears to have paid too much tax over the year.....

    And Labour thinks this is good news and justifies there entire stance....... Seriously??

    Actually what it does is sum up Labours entire fiscal approach and total lack of responsibility where budgets and finance are involved.

    EDIT and still gets it wrong apparently by not including pensions.

    Couldn't make it up...

    You missed this...
    Mr Corbyn, who turned 65 in May 2014, received a state pension of around £6,000 a year but did not include details of the income on the hand-written return he published on Monday.

    He also failed to declare on the form income from a pension from his time in local Government, although Labour insisted it had been taxed at source.

    Labour yesterday said that all tax due on his pensions had been paid and insisted that details of his income from his retirement funds had been included on a separate sheet.

    However accountants described the omission as "sloppy" and said that even if he has paid all tax his failure to declare the income amounted to a technical offence.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/jeremy-corbyn-admits-failing-to-include-state-pension-income-on/

    Moron.

    It's getting worse each time it's revisited. Pandora's box indeed. At the very least you would expect him to be squeaky clean....alas no. As you say ....a moron.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    Major Tory donors are preparing to fund a grassroots campaign to leave the European Union following David Cameron’s decision to spend millions of pounds on a pro-EU leaflet, the Telegraph can disclose.

    Members of the Midlands Industrial Council, a group of businessmen which have bankrolled the Conservative party for 20 years, are planning to donate between £4million and £5million to the anti-EU campaign over the next 10 weeks.

    It will be seen as an attempt to redress the balance following the Government’s controversial decision to spend £9.3million of taxpayers’ money in order to send a pro-EU leaflet to every home in Britain.

    David Wall, the Council's secretary, says his members are "incandescent with rage" over Mr Cameron's decision to send the leaflet.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/conservative-donors-prepare-to-sink-5million-into-brexit-campaig/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Very significant. Especially given the history of this group.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited April 2016

    I'm curious to see what Remain do next, still favourites but the gap narrowing and momentum undoubtedly with Leave.

    They've done Project Fear and name calling, is Dave going for the "trust me, I'm a straight kind of guy" act next?

    Thing is, LEAVE haven't even really done anything yet... Imagine how well LEAVE could be doing if they were actually running a sensible campaign (or any campaign for that matter)

    But surely someone will grasp the nettle and take LEAVE by the scruff of the neck within the next few weeks?
  • Options
    This is why the betting markets are backing Remain. Dave is very lucky in his choice of opponents

    https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/719996566841520128
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2016

    I don't know if there is such a thing as BBC2+1 but I just caught the last 20 minutes of "Europe: Them or Us" with Nick Robinson.

    Very interesting, and not obviously biased, which surprised me.

    Heath interviewed admitting he covered up the true intent from Day One.

    There isn't as such but if you go on the live streaming page you can rewind the programme currently showing.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    twitter.com/rosschawkins/status/719994349564600320

    The problem for Cameron is that, if Remain wins, he will be open to the accusation he biased the result. Thereby not putting it to bed, and instead letting it fester for the rest of his premiership.

    I don't see how this is good politics for him.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
    That isn't even in question. It'd be at least 65:35 to Leave.
    If the cult of personality of the Cult of the Leader has such influence then referenda are nonsense.
    Curiously, silly old Roy Hattersley made the same point about Euro membership in 1997: if only Tony would call the referendum and give his unqualified support, Britain would vote for membership by a landslide. It was patronizing drivel when he said it and it remains so today.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited April 2016

    I don't know if there is such a thing as BBC2+1 but I just caught the last 20 minutes of "Europe: Them or Us" with Nick Robinson.

    Very interesting, and not obviously biased, which surprised me.

    Heath interviewed admitting he covered up the true intent from Day One.

    Pompidou's aide stated Heath was the only British politician who truly believed in the European ideal. Politicians filmed opposing Britain's entry in the programme included Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskill, Jim Callaghan, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell and Teddy Taylor and De Gaulle, those in favour included Macmillan (after initial reluctance), Roy Jenkins, Douglas Hurd, Christopher Soames, Shirley Williams, Norman Tebbitt (though when interviewed he called it the folly of youth), Pompidou, Helmut Schmidt and of course Heath, if anything slightly more Tories than Labour
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    This is why the betting markets are backing Remain. Dave is very lucky in his choice of opponents

    https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/719996566841520128

    Who will he sue?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    This is why the betting markets are backing Remain. Dave is very lucky in his choice of opponents

    https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/719996566841520128

    I think if that is their attitude it rather demonstrates the immaturity and precisely why they should NOT be Dave's official opponent.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Wrong sort of leaves?
  • Options

    twitter.com/rosschawkins/status/719994349564600320

    The problem for Cameron is that, if Remain wins, he will be open to the accusation he biased the result. Thereby not putting it to bed, and instead letting it fester for the rest of his premiership.

    I don't see how this is good politics for him.
    Yeah, but that would only make Leavers look like sore losers, whilst insulting the intelligence of the voters, and displaying all the grace of the Nats in defeat.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Danny565 said:

    AndyJS said:

    An interesting point about the local elections is that not only will we be able to compare them with 2012 but also, in many cases, with 2015. So we'll have swing and change figures compared to the general election in terms of popular votes.

    But the most relevant measure will be swing/change figures from 2011: the first year of the last electoral cycle.
    Perhaps, but if Labour have moved backwards in terms of vote share since the general election that would be a pretty awful situation for them to be in. We have the opinion polls at the moment, but real votes would be more convincing.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    What would happen in the unlikely event of Man City winning the Champs League and finishing 5th in the league, and Liverpool winning the Europa League?

    Would we have 6 clubs in the Champions League next season?

    The side that finishes fourth in the Premier League gets shunted out of the Champions League and into the Europa League.

    Man City would take their place in the Champions League.

    Liverpool would also qualify for the Champs league.

    Maximum number of teams from anyone country in the Champs league is 5.
    Thanks - hope that happens with Man Utd finishing 4th in that case!
    Is the scenario Citeh fans would love and Man U fans fear.
    For Chelsea fans the Icing on the cake in addition to winning the Champions League against all the odds was denying Tottenham, who finished 4th, entry into the CL.
    The absence has meant we'll enjoy the CL so much more next season...
    Leicesters last game is away at Chelsea, FWIW.

    I hope to have it wrapped up sooner than that though.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Pulpstar said:

    If there's one thing our legal system loves and encourages, it's mendacious, vexatious litigation.
    Damn right. Some of us have school fees to pay.
  • Options

    This is why the betting markets are backing Remain. Dave is very lucky in his choice of opponents

    https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/719996566841520128

    Who will he sue?
    I'm assuming he'll go after the electoral commission.

    If he really wants to damage Leave, he could ask for an injunction to stop Vote Leave from doing anything whilst the case is heard.
  • Options
    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    HYUFD said:

    I don't know if there is such a thing as BBC2+1 but I just caught the last 20 minutes of "Europe: Them or Us" with Nick Robinson.

    Very interesting, and not obviously biased, which surprised me.

    Heath interviewed admitting he covered up the true intent from Day One.

    Pompidou's aide stated Heath was the only British politician who truly believed in the European ideal. Politicians filmed opposing Britain's entry in the programme included Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskill, Jim Callaghan, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell and Teddy Taylor and De Gaulle, those in favour included Macmillan (after initial reluctance), Roy Jenkins, Douglas Hurd, Christopher Soames, Shirley Williams, Norman Tebbitt (though when interviewed he called it the folly of youth), Pompidou, Helmut Schmidt and of course Heath, if anything slightly more Tories than Labour
    The one politician from the last 50 or so years I detest more than any other it is Shirley Williams.
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    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
    That isn't even in question. It'd be at least 65:35 to Leave.
    And Big G from South Wales would be No.1 cheerleader for Leave.
    Don't know a Big G from SOUTH Wales and as I have said already on several occasions I am neutral and will readily accept the will of the people
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    It's like a repeat of this:

    "Oh why did we lose the Referendum, if only Nick Clegg was against AV"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGP0jxj1-EQ
    Ha, ha! But a more apposite comparison with Clegg is the massive poll surges he had during the debates of 2005, which vanished like fairy dust when people came to vote. Opinion polling is now just a glorified version of the 'Like' facility on the internet - facile, frivolous and with no predictive content of how people will actually behave.
    If you remember the NOtoAV campaign distributed leaflets with Nick Clegg's face.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/feb/05/av-get-clegg-campaign

    Now the Leave camp has 2 juicy faces to put on it's leaflets, one of Corbyn to be sent to safe Tory seats, and one of Cameron to be sent to safe Labour seats.

    That should do the trick.
    You could just as easily say Remain could send leaflets with Galloway's and Dennis Skinner's face on to safe Tory seats and IDS and Farage's face to safe Labour seats
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    Fenster said:

    I'm voting leave.

    Instinctively if feels like something I must do.

    I love the different countries of Europe and wish peace and prosperity to all but it bugs me - and it has always bugged me - to see smug, power hungry suits like Juncker and Schulz back slapping one another as if they are masters of the fucking universe, while sneering at us little people.

    Sod it..I'm for out. And I think we'll do just fine.

    PS - and for those who think I'm misinformed... yep, guilty as charged..But my vote still counts.

    Me, too.

    But I do know (1) the Eurozone and its younng unemployed are b*ggered for many years to come, (2) Europe is awash with many hundreds of thousands more un- or counterproductive people, and that's just 2015, and (3) the IMF did not warn of global economic damege when the cretinous Eurozone was started.
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    nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    I suspect this is all noise, fed by people who respond to opinion polls as a way of commenting on the current media narrative. The government has taken a media drubbing over the last week. No surprise that fewer respondents are prepared to appear sympathetic towards one of its pet projects. If Dave had been a Leaver, Remain would be surging now.

    Personally I think if Dave had been a Leaver the campaign would effectively already be over and Leave would walk it
    That isn't even in question. It'd be at least 65:35 to Leave.
    And Big G from South Wales would be No.1 cheerleader for Leave.
    Don't know a Big G from SOUTH Wales and as I have said already on several occasions I am neutral and will readily accept the will of the people
    Sorry about the geography, but from everything you have posted on this issue you will do exactly as Cameron tells you to.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    This is why the betting markets are backing Remain. Dave is very lucky in his choice of opponents

    https://twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/719996566841520128

    Who will he sue?
    I'm assuming he'll go after the electoral commission.

    If he really wants to damage Leave, he could ask for an injunction to stop Vote Leave from doing anything whilst the case is heard.
    On what grounds can he sue the electoral commission? Funny how Banks the egotist is becoming Remain's best hope. He'll throw a tantrum, make some threats and sulk while Vote Leave get on with things.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited April 2016

    twitter.com/rosschawkins/status/719994349564600320

    The problem for Cameron is that, if Remain wins, he will be open to the accusation he biased the result. Thereby not putting it to bed, and instead letting it fester for the rest of his premiership.

    I don't see how this is good politics for him.
    I assume Cameron will worry about that if/when it happens. For now all he's concerned about is winning at any and all costs to keep all his Bilderberg mates happy and keeping the show on the road for himself, Boy George, etc.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Major Tory donors are preparing to fund a grassroots campaign to leave the European Union following David Cameron’s decision to spend millions of pounds on a pro-EU leaflet, the Telegraph can disclose.

    Members of the Midlands Industrial Council, a group of businessmen which have bankrolled the Conservative party for 20 years, are planning to donate between £4million and £5million to the anti-EU campaign over the next 10 weeks.

    It will be seen as an attempt to redress the balance following the Government’s controversial decision to spend £9.3million of taxpayers’ money in order to send a pro-EU leaflet to every home in Britain.

    David Wall, the Council's secretary, says his members are "incandescent with rage" over Mr Cameron's decision to send the leaflet.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/12/conservative-donors-prepare-to-sink-5million-into-brexit-campaig/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    This is not particularly surprising considering who some of their key members are.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Speedy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leave will probably get a phone poll lead next.

    If they do then that will finally awaken the betting markets as to the direction of polling.
    The general trend is exactly as it has always been, a very narrow Remain. ICM online has already had Leave leads before
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    I'm curious to see what Remain do next, still favourites but the gap narrowing and momentum undoubtedly with Leave.

    They've done Project Fear and name calling, is Dave going for the "trust me, I'm a straight kind of guy" act next?

    It will be interesting once the campaign proper starts and vote leave gets designation. I despise the EU with a passion but still neutral as stated previously. I will reveal my decision eventually as I do have a postal vote and will be voting
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    HYUFD said:

    I don't know if there is such a thing as BBC2+1 but I just caught the last 20 minutes of "Europe: Them or Us" with Nick Robinson.

    Very interesting, and not obviously biased, which surprised me.

    Heath interviewed admitting he covered up the true intent from Day One.

    Pompidou's aide stated Heath was the only British politician who truly believed in the European ideal. Politicians filmed opposing Britain's entry in the programme included Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskill, Jim Callaghan, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell and Teddy Taylor and De Gaulle, those in favour included Macmillan (after initial reluctance), Roy Jenkins, Douglas Hurd, Christopher Soames, Shirley Williams, Norman Tebbitt (though when interviewed he called it the folly of youth), Pompidou, Helmut Schmidt and of course Heath, if anything slightly more Tories than Labour
    The one politician from the last 50 or so years I detest more than any other it is Shirley Williams.
    Helped take the UK into the EU and began the process of shutting down grammar schools
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