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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time to bet against the Donald

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Time to bet against the Donald

Back in October, I tipped Ted Cruz for the Republican nomination as a trading bet. As always with such bets, the trick is trading out at the right time. So with Cruz now at less than 2/1 across the board, when is that time?

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Comments

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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    First!
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Second, but a long way behind!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,623
    Third! Like SLAB......maybe.....
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Fourth - 3 lower than Leicester or Middlesbrough
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Trump is an amateur nasty.

    Cruz is a professional nasty.

    I know which candidate would worry me the most.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,623
    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html
  • Options

    Trump is an amateur nasty.

    Cruz is a professional nasty.

    I know which candidate would worry me the most.

    Quite so.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,975

    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html

    Such a parcel of rogues in our(their) nation!!
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html

    The best thing I can say about that article is that Hunchman would thoroughly agree with it.

    More remarkably and given the author's job, it's not very well written.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    matt said:

    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html

    The best thing I can say about that article is that Hunchman would thoroughly agree with it.

    More remarkably and given the author's job, it's not very well written.
    That's putting it kindly.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    Not persuaded David. The Republican party is totally dysfunctional but remains or at least needs to look as if it remains a democratic body at heart. If Trump arrives with 1150 delegates as you suggest, having put himself out there around the entire country and having defeated all comers by a comfortable margin if not a plurality he wins. Any other result is pressing the self destruct button. It really is.

    And it is not as if Cruz is even popular with the establishment. They loathe him and its mutual. So why would they destroy their party to defeat the FPTP winner? It really makes no sense to me at all. Trump will be the republican nominee.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    matt said:

    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html

    The best thing I can say about that article is that Hunchman would thoroughly agree with it.

    More remarkably and given the author's job, it's not very well written.
    Agreed. It is embarrassing. She was singing for her supper and getting well paid for it. So she probably said some nice things about her hosts. What exactly is the problem with that?

    If Trump will be the republican nominee then Clinton is nailed on for the democrats.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    A comprehensive Saturday Herders morning jaunt through the Trumpster over the cornflakes (other nutritionless cereals are available) but the essentials are these :

    Trump will be the GOP candidate and lose comfortable to Clinton in November. PBers should take their positions accordingly.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    But unlike DavidL I could easily imagine Ted Cruz winning the politicking at the convention if it is still to play for then. His odds look a bit too long to me.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html

    The content of Hillary's brief speech to GS is unimportant, it's the $ 225,000 fee that's damning.
    Talk is cheap.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    weejonnie said:

    Fourth - 3 lower than Leicester or Middlesbrough

    In an interesting quirk, assuming Leicester and Middlesborough win their divisions as seems quite likely, right back Ritchie De Laet will win both a Premiership and a Championship winners medal for the same season.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239

    weejonnie said:

    Fourth - 3 lower than Leicester or Middlesbrough

    In an interesting quirk, assuming Leicester and Middlesborough win their divisions as seems quite likely, right back Ritchie De Laet will win both a Premiership and a Championship winners medal for the same season.
    Wow. I doubt that has ever happened before.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    That would seem fairly conclusive.

    It won't shut up the crazies, but then nothing will.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    DavidL said:

    Not persuaded David. The Republican party is totally dysfunctional but remains or at least needs to look as if it remains a democratic body at heart. If Trump arrives with 1150 delegates as you suggest, having put himself out there around the entire country and having defeated all comers by a comfortable margin if not a plurality he wins. Any other result is pressing the self destruct button. It really is.

    And it is not as if Cruz is even popular with the establishment. They loathe him and its mutual. So why would they destroy their party to defeat the FPTP winner? It really makes no sense to me at all. Trump will be the republican nominee.

    I agree with your first paragraph, which is why I wrote my piece last week asking whether Dumping the Trump was worth it, and concluding 'no'.

    However, what you and I think are by the by. The question we need to answer is whether the GOP think it's worth trying, which to be fair, is the question you ask next.

    However, there our views diverge. Cruz and the establishment did cordially hate each other but the straws in the wind suggest to me a tactical alliance is forming. Now as you rightly point out, that may well be a miscalculation on the establishment's part but we can't ignore the facts. Cruz is getting endorsements from well beyond his natural Tea Party fringe, for example.

    More significantly, Cruz is doing extremely well at delegate selection; far better than Trump, who only recently seems to have realised that it's worth paying any attention there. Whether or not it's in the establishment's interest to ally with Cruz, it's certainly in Cruz's interest to ally with them, particularly if, given the maths, he's the only hope they have of stopping Trump; he will barely need to conceded anything.

    Now it might be that the GOP bigwigs are trying to play what they think is a very clever game in backing Cruz but only to a point that keeps both him and Trump short of the target, so that after several deadlocked rounds a third, unity, candidate can enter the field. If that is the thinking, I suspect it'll be too clever by half. A convention with a clear majority of genuine Cruz and Trump supporters is unlikely to be keen to ride in behind Ryan, Kasich or Romney.

    But they have to ride in behind someone. Like you, I think that despite his unpopularity, their least worst option given where they are now remains Trump. But on balance, I don't think it's the one they're going to go for.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239

    DavidL said:

    Not persuaded David. The Republican party is totally dysfunctional but remains or at least needs to look as if it remains a democratic body at heart. If Trump arrives with 1150 delegates as you suggest, having put himself out there around the entire country and having defeated all comers by a comfortable margin if not a plurality he wins. Any other result is pressing the self destruct button. It really is.

    And it is not as if Cruz is even popular with the establishment. They loathe him and its mutual. So why would they destroy their party to defeat the FPTP winner? It really makes no sense to me at all. Trump will be the republican nominee.

    I agree with your first paragraph, which is why I wrote my piece last week asking whether Dumping the Trump was worth it, and concluding 'no'.

    However, what you and I think are by the by. The question we need to answer is whether the GOP think it's worth trying, which to be fair, is the question you ask next.

    However, there our views diverge. Cruz and the establishment did cordially hate each other but the straws in the wind suggest to me a tactical alliance is forming. Now as you rightly point out, that may well be a miscalculation on the establishment's part but we can't ignore the facts. Cruz is getting endorsements from well beyond his natural Tea Party fringe, for example.

    More significantly, Cruz is doing extremely well at delegate selection; far better than Trump, who only recently seems to have realised that it's worth paying any attention there. Whether or not it's in the establishment's interest to ally with Cruz, it's certainly in Cruz's interest to ally with them, particularly if, given the maths, he's the only hope they have of stopping Trump; he will barely need to conceded anything.

    Now it might be that the GOP bigwigs are trying to play what they think is a very clever game in backing Cruz but only to a point that keeps both him and Trump short of the target, so that after several deadlocked rounds a third, unity, candidate can enter the field. If that is the thinking, I suspect it'll be too clever by half. A convention with a clear majority of genuine Cruz and Trump supporters is unlikely to be keen to ride in behind Ryan, Kasich or Romney.

    But they have to ride in behind someone. Like you, I think that despite his unpopularity, their least worst option given where they are now remains Trump. But on balance, I don't think it's the one they're going to go for.
    Well, we'll see but I agree with this guy: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-the-gop-cant-take-the-nomination-from-trump/
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Well, maybe.....

    Release of Clinton’s Wall Street Speeches Could End Her Candidacy for President

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/release-of-clintons-wall-street-speeches_b_9698632.html

    The content of Hillary's brief speech to GS is unimportant, it's the $ 225,000 fee that's damning.
    Talk is cheap.
    Her talk isn't

    Typical after dinner speech is 20 mins
    Average public speaker is around 120 words per minute
    She is earning $93 per word!
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?
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    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Augustus and Livia?

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited April 2016

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Augustus and Livia?

    Queen Mary I and Philip of Spain and England

    The pretenders "Mary II and William III" .... :smile:
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    Whether or not it ultimately proves to be a show-stopper, we ought at least to consider (1) the possibility that it will be, and (2) the impact on thinking of delegates at the convention that it might be.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
    Yes and if you don't you need a basic lesson in economics.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    DavidL said:

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.
    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
    Yes and if you don't you need a basic lesson in economics.
    Civil servants are not on the minimum wage, but yet their is only a passing correlation between their pay and their ability, as promotion is largely a factor of time served (and to some extent asses kissed). The medical profession is not as bad, but there is certainly a strong element of this.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Getting to the front of the queue is only slightly to do with ability. With another name, it's possible that she might have been. You'd probably have to sketch out a career where she ended up as Obama's VP (which isn't impossible as she'd potentially balance his ticket in several ways).

    But yes, the most dominant factor in her becoming president is that she's married to the 42nd president. Same as the 43rd was the son of the 41st. What are the chances, eh?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    JackW said:

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Augustus and Livia?

    Queen Mary I and Philip of Spain and England

    The pretenders "Mary II and William III" .... :smile:
    Not entirely sure that any of those four got there on merit! Had they had to, William of Orange might have been a decent politician. The rest? Unlikely.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
    Yes and if you don't you need a basic lesson in economics.
    So teachers, ambulance men and soldiers are all subject to market forces?

    Look, roofers, pop stars and estate agents are all subject to market forces, if customers don't buy their stuff they go out of business. State employed doctors are the polar opposite.

    This is the lunatic economy we live in, people have been brainwashed into believing that state employees are market driven, its just ludicrous. Doctors are an essential part of society and must be respected, subject to market forces - complete bollox.
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Getting to the front of the queue is only slightly to do with ability. With another name, it's possible that she might have been. You'd probably have to sketch out a career where she ended up as Obama's VP (which isn't impossible as she'd potentially balance his ticket in several ways).

    But yes, the most dominant factor in her becoming president is that she's married to the 42nd president. Same as the 43rd was the son of the 41st. What are the chances, eh?
    Think of her as, say, an American Ed Miliband, or even a Gordon Brown figure.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    DavidL said:

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.
    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
    1150 isn't 1236. If Donald Trump hasn't reached 1236 nominees, he has no inalienable right to the nomination. He has the moral right in such circumstances to be considered first, but if once considered he appears inappropriate, he can be passed over in favour of a more suitable eligible candidate.

    The question is: is there one?
  • Options

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
    Yes and if you don't you need a basic lesson in economics.
    So teachers, ambulance men and soldiers are all subject to market forces?

    Look, roofers, pop stars and estate agents are all subject to market forces, if customers don't buy their stuff they go out of business. State employed doctors are the polar opposite.

    This is the lunatic economy we live in, people have been brainwashed into believing that state employees are market driven, its just ludicrous. Doctors are an essential part of society and must be respected, subject to market forces - complete bollox.
    The new contract has a specific clause removing ALL market forces. If a doctor wishes to locum, unless their usual employer gives them an agreement in writing they cannot locum legally. This is also combined with locum caps (admittedly only for agencies, but most hospitals are putting them out accross the board) means that if you don't want to do your own hospital locum at the pathetic rate they are offering, you are not allowed to work for a different provider offering more.

    Definitely no market forces at play there!

    As for standard salaries, fox already stated there is a monopoly employer and there is a national pay scale - hospitals are not allowed to entice juniors with different pay offers which would be a market economy, although with the way we are employed through deaneries and almost sub contracted out to hospitals this would not be a practical way of employing people.

    Anyways my shift begins soon!
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
    Convert to freedom of movement?

    Listen, why do you need to tell lies? I am PRO freedom of movement, its you that doesn't want doctors from the sub continent coming in and exposing you.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Getting to the front of the queue is only slightly to do with ability. With another name, it's possible that she might have been. You'd probably have to sketch out a career where she ended up as Obama's VP (which isn't impossible as she'd potentially balance his ticket in several ways).

    But yes, the most dominant factor in her becoming president is that she's married to the 42nd president. Same as the 43rd was the son of the 41st. What are the chances, eh?
    As I said the probability is extraordinary. Onlookers find the whole thing bizarre.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
    Convert to freedom of movement?

    Listen, why do you need to tell lies? I am PRO freedom of movement, its you that doesn't want doctors from the sub continent coming in and exposing you.
    When have I opposed medical migration from abroad? You may have me confused with another poster.

    But I am glad that you are now in favour of freedom of movement.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2016
    If he gets 1150 then won't he have achieved a majority of elected delegates? To fail due to unbound delegates only (I don't think the GOP uses the term superdelegates) is inappropriate.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
    Convert to freedom of movement?

    Listen, why do you need to tell lies? I am PRO freedom of movement, its you that doesn't want doctors from the sub continent coming in and exposing you.
    When have I opposed medical migration from abroad? You may have me confused with another poster.

    But I am glad that you are now in favour of freedom of movement.
    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
    Convert to freedom of movement?

    Listen, why do you need to tell lies? I am PRO freedom of movement, its you that doesn't want doctors from the sub continent coming in and exposing you.
    When have I opposed medical migration from abroad? You may have me confused with another poster.

    But I am glad that you are now in favour of freedom of movement.
    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.
    I recall that you objected to the income requirement to bring in a spouse. Have you changed your opinion on this?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2016

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.

    Why a 4 week delay?

    We keep hearing about all these British trained doctors going to Australia allegedly. Why would an Australian who wants to come this way be discriminated against?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS doctors aren't subject to market forces then why are they not on the minimum wage and why are many of them emigrating to countries like Oz or transfering to the private sector?
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
    Yes and if you don't you need a basic lesson in economics.
    So teachers, ambulance men and soldiers are all subject to market forces?

    Look, roofers, pop stars and estate agents are all subject to market forces, if customers don't buy their stuff they go out of business. State employed doctors are the polar opposite.

    This is the lunatic economy we live in, people have been brainwashed into believing that state employees are market driven, its just ludicrous. Doctors are an essential part of society and must be respected, subject to market forces - complete bollox.
    I think you're last two words most adequately sum up your appreciation of complex market forces.

    State employees don't operate in a vacuum of economic activity. Specifically doctors as higher educated individuals will not choose the profession if the economic package on offer isn't commensurate with a broad level of acceptance by them in general financial comparisons and expectations.

    The state must set the pay at levels to attract and retain doctors within that context. If the state doesn't buy doctors services at the market level the end result is clear but obviously not to you.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    If he gets 1150 then won't he have achieved a majority of elected delegates? To fail due to unbound delegates only (I don't think the GOP uses the term superdelegates) is inappropriate.

    Many may think so, but even having unbound or super delegates who do not even have to pay lip service to any public vote in the first place would indicate the parties never promised to make it a straight democratic contest and, presumably, it never has been before either. Bit late for people to complain about unbound delegates, Byzantine rules and inconsistent state methods for assigning delegates.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    If NHS
    Before I respond I need to clarify: do you believe NHS doctor's pay is subject to market forces?
    Yes and if you don't you need a basic lesson in economics.
    So teachers, ambulance men and soldiers are all subject to market forces?

    Look, roofers, pop stars and estate agents are all subject to market forces, if customers don't buy their stuff they go out
    The new contract has a specific clause removing ALL market forces. If a doctor wishes to locum, unless their usual employer gives them an agreement in writing they cannot locum legally. This is also combined with locum caps (admittedly only for agencies, but most hospitals are putting them out accross the board) means that if you don't want to do your own hospital locum at the pathetic rate they are offering, you are not allowed to work for a different provider offering more.

    Definitely no market forces at play there!

    As for standard salaries, fox already stated there is a monopoly employer and there is a national pay scale - hospitals are not allowed to entice juniors with different pay offers which would be a market economy, although with the way we are employed through deaneries and almost sub contracted out to hospitals this would not be a practical way of employing people.

    Anyways my shift begins soon!
    Another day off for me!

    The restriction on locuming and the low rates is one of the reasons* there will be a worsening staffing crisis. Those rota gaps are now unfillable, and will particularly affect out of hours services. It is all part of the perfect storm that Hunt has arranged. I can see why some of my colleagues believe it to be a deliberate scheme to crash the NHS.

    *there are other important reasons. Improvements in some of the non-financial terms and conditions of employment could boost recruitment significantly.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    It's hard to see any conclusion other than HC wins both the Dem nomination and then the Presidency. Republican manoeuvring appears to be about maintaining power below the White House level, which given the strength of feeling both Cruz and Trump inspire appears to be the sensible approach. Both of them require a long spoon though, albeit for different reasons.

    The interesting question from the HC side is who would be the VP. I remember seeing HC in 2012 and she looked one step away from the grave largely from the pressure I would think. It would not surprise if she fell over during her first term.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.

    Why a 4 week delay?

    We keep hearing about all these British trained doctors going to Australia allegedly. Why would an Australian who wants to come this way be discriminated against?
    To get a Tier 2 visa a post has to be advertised for 4 weeks and no appointable UK or EU candidate found before a non-EU candidate can be given the job. Those are the Home Office rules.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105

    DavidL said:

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.
    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
    But at least he was in the race - and handily beat the other people in the race. And I suspect that many of Kasich's delegates would be more likely to support Trump than Cruz, who., let's remember, was the most detested of the main candidates by the Republican great and good before Trump took the mantle.

    There is one thing that people might be able to help me with. We are told that Trump couldn't stand as an independent because he wouldn't be on the ballot paper in about 45 states. So how does the brokered convention candidate get on the ballot paper? Is there just a space reserved for The Republican Party Candidate (whosoever they be)? Or is it far messier than that?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Woke up feeling a bit LEAVE-y this morning. Odd.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,876

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    That has no bearing on the US bean feast , it is all down to how much money and pork barrel friends you can muster.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    If he gets 1150 then won't he have achieved a majority of elected delegates? To fail due to unbound delegates only (I don't think the GOP uses the term superdelegates) is inappropriate.

    Many may think so, but even having unbound or super delegates who do not even have to pay lip service to any public vote in the first place would indicate the parties never promised to make it a straight democratic contest and, presumably, it never has been before either. Bit late for people to complain about unbound delegates, Byzantine rules and inconsistent state methods for assigning delegates.

    In reality for about a half century now the unbound have voted along with the elected not against them thus emphasising the elected candidates margin of victory. To go against the electorate would be pretty unique.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.

    Why a 4 week delay?

    We keep hearing about all these British trained doctors going to Australia allegedly. Why would an Australian who wants to come this way be discriminated against?
    To get a Tier 2 visa a post has to be advertised for 4 weeks and no appointable UK or EU candidate found before a non-EU candidate can be given the job. Those are the Home Office rules.
    Are they appropriate rules? Why not allow an Australian to apply at the same stage as an Austrian?
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Getting to the front of the queue is only slightly to do with ability. With another name, it's possible that she might have been. You'd probably have to sketch out a career where she ended up as Obama's VP (which isn't impossible as she'd potentially balance his ticket in several ways).

    But yes, the most dominant factor in her becoming president is that she's married to the 42nd president. Same as the 43rd was the son of the 41st. What are the chances, eh?
    Good morning all.

    In other words only the very rich, or the richly supported can afford to become nominated, let alone elected as president of the United States.

    No more quiet geniuses born in log cabins or the like, likely to be elected. The Left thought that they had found their Lincoln in Obama, only to find that he's screwed up America and them as well.

    Whoever is elected, is going to face stormy times, made worse by science increasing to destruction, mankind's runaway population numbers.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited April 2016

    kle4 said:

    If he gets 1150 then won't he have achieved a majority of elected delegates? To fail due to unbound delegates only (I don't think the GOP uses the term superdelegates) is inappropriate.

    Many may think so, but even having unbound or super delegates who do not even have to pay lip service to any public vote in the first place would indicate the parties never promised to make it a straight democratic contest and, presumably, it never has been before either. Bit late for people to complain about unbound delegates, Byzantine rules and inconsistent state methods for assigning delegates.

    In reality for about a half century now the unbound have voted along with the elected not against them thus emphasising the elected candidates margin of victory. To go against the electorate would be pretty unique.
    But the mere presence serves as constant reminder it doesn't have to co e down to the public view, even if they usually reflect it. The potentiality is still there, and while they might not exercise it, if they did people could be upset but hardly complain given its not a hidden potential, therefore not inappropriate, which was the point being addressed. And of course We already know the democratic suoerdelegates are falling massively in one direction when the elected contest is not quite as lopsided. Yes, emphasising the margin not creating it, but still.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    malcolmg said:

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    That has no bearing on the US bean feast , it is all down to how much money and pork barrel friends you can muster.
    Morning all,

    The question of capability is an odd one for presidents (or indeed PMs). Who decides? What are the criteria? There's been some pretty rum presidents over the years. Getting nominated and winning is no guarantee of capability, nor it seems is decades of experience.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited April 2016
    malcolmg said:

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    That has no bearing on the US bean feast , it is all down to how much money and pork barrel friends you can muster.
    I'd have thought the right name gives you a head start on both.

    George P bush may be annoyed jeb's poor showing means some of the same people dont back him for his no doubt inevitable run. Although maybe they needed to renew those links this time to ensure they were still in place for George.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    matt said:

    It's hard to see any conclusion other than HC wins both the Dem nomination and then the Presidency. Republican manoeuvring appears to be about maintaining power below the White House level, which given the strength of feeling both Cruz and Trump inspire appears to be the sensible approach. Both of them require a long spoon though, albeit for different reasons.

    The interesting question from the HC side is who would be the VP. I remember seeing HC in 2012 and she looked one step away from the grave largely from the pressure I would think. It would not surprise if she fell over during her first term.

    The money is on Julian Castro for Dem Veep. Although v small market so far (£1700 on BF).

    Personally, I think it has to be Selina Meyer.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.

    Why a 4 week delay?

    We keep hearing about all these British trained doctors going to Australia allegedly. Why would an Australian who wants to come this way be discriminated against?
    To get a Tier 2 visa a post has to be advertised for 4 weeks and no appointable UK or EU candidate found before a non-EU candidate can be given the job. Those are the Home Office rules.
    Are they appropriate rules? Why not allow an Australian to apply at the same stage as an Austrian?
    Those are the present rules of the current government, though the big restriction on medical migration came in with changes to visa rules in 2006 under Labour. It was at that point that the inflow of doctors from the sub-continent stopped. We do get a few now coming in on spouse visas.

    We have had a few Australians come for certain bits of niche work, but they tend to have a patriality stamp (ie one British grandparent) so are exempt. It is a long way from 1932 when my grandparents migrated to Britain, they didn't even need a passport, just a ticket on the ship.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    wait till after 26th to lay Trump I think - he has a great run of states incoming
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.

    Why a 4 week delay?

    We keep hearing about all these British trained doctors going to Australia allegedly. Why would an Australian who wants to come this way be discriminated against?
    To get a Tier 2 visa a post has to be advertised for 4 weeks and no appointable UK or EU candidate found before a non-EU candidate can be given the job. Those are the Home Office rules.
    Are they appropriate rules? Why not allow an Australian to apply at the same stage as an Austrian?
    Those are the present rules of the current government, though the big restriction on medical migration came in with changes to visa rules in 2006 under Labour. It was at that point that the inflow of doctors from the sub-continent stopped. We do get a few now coming in on spouse visas.

    We have had a few Australians come for certain bits of niche work, but they tend to have a patriality stamp (ie one British grandparent) so are exempt. It is a long way from 1932 when my grandparents migrated to Britain, they didn't even need a passport, just a ticket on the ship.
    So we could treat the whole world not just a tiny proportion of it on an equal footing and get an increase in professionals coming in?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    malcolmg said:

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    That has no bearing on the US bean feast , it is all down to how much money and pork barrel friends you can muster.
    Yes, British politics is a little better in that respect.

    I cannot see a way out of this mess for the Republicans. They have to have a candidate, and if anything other than Trump there will be accusations of a backroom fix, and no point in a fix if it is likely to fall apart or be inadequate. Probably the best option is to accept the inevitable and get on board with Trump and hope to soften his rougher edges.

    I am green on this race but best with Cruz or Kasich. I cannot see much value either backing or laying Trump at this point.

    Hillary will be an excellent President.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.

    Why a 4 week delay?

    We keep hearing about all these British trained doctors going to Australia allegedly. Why would an Australian who wants to come this way be discriminated against?
    To get a Tier 2 visa a post has to be advertised for 4 weeks and no appointable UK or EU candidate found before a non-EU candidate can be given the job. Those are the Home Office rules.
    Are they appropriate rules? Why not allow an Australian to apply at the same stage as an Austrian?
    Those are the present rules of the current government, though the big restriction on medical migration came in with changes to visa rules in 2006 under Labour. It was at that point that the inflow of doctors from the sub-continent stopped. We do get a few now coming in on spouse visas.

    We have had a few Australians come for certain bits of niche work, but they tend to have a patriality stamp (ie one British grandparent) so are exempt. It is a long way from 1932 when my grandparents migrated to Britain, they didn't even need a passport, just a ticket on the ship.
    So we could treat the whole world not just a tiny proportion of it on an equal footing and get an increase in professionals coming in?
    We could, but when we did have that open door policy it didn't adversely impact on British doctors pay. Indeed pay has been on the slide since 2004 when the new rules came in.

    There is a worldwide shortage of medical graduates in general and specialists in particular.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    DavidL said:

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.
    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
    1150 isn't 1236. If Donald Trump hasn't reached 1236 nominees, he has no inalienable right to the nomination. He has the moral right in such circumstances to be considered first, but if once considered he appears inappropriate, he can be passed over in favour of a more suitable eligible candidate.

    The question is: is there one?
    Several. The remarkable thing about this election is the candidates' inverse relationship between democratic legitimacy and electability.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    edited April 2016
    Just tactically, I'd wait to lay him until after he's had a crushing NY victory, as it seems he's about to do. Whether I'd lay him then I'm not sure.

    Is there a link to Cruz's more outrageous positions, by the way? - I have a general impression of nastiness and fanaticism, but I don't really know the details.

    O/T: the Mayoral information leaflets (not yet the postal voting papers) have arrived, a neat little booklet. Everyone gets two A5 pages, in randomly-selected order. They are:

    Sophie Walker, Women' Equality - professionally done, highlights equal pay, combating violence vs women, childcare and transport. Could well get a decent 1st preference share.

    Lee Harris, Cannabis is Safer Than Alcohol - amateur effort

    Zac Goldsmith - homes, transport, environment, neighbourhood policing. Positive pitch, Tories only mentioned in passing at the end. I like it but it's quite text-heavy

    David Furness, BNP - immigration, Christianity. BNP highlighted, very little about the candidate. Cites Archbishop of Canterbury approvingly, but won't appeal beyond the traditional BNP vote.

    Caroline Pidgeon, LibDem - housing, more police, child minders, transport. Lots of pictures, not bad.

    Paul Golding, Britain First - immigrants, anti-EU, anti-Islamist, hate preachers, Christianity. Nasty IMO but turbocharged BNP style, could outpoll Furness.

    George Galloway, Respect - very text-heavy and even a bit hard to read. Vote me for peace, justice, equality, better deal for everyone. Vague.

    Peter Whittle, UKIP - immigration, housing, stop translation services, back stop and search, and immigration again. Pictured with Farage. Reinforces impression that UKIP is only about immigration.

    Sadiq Khan - links policies to person - council estate boy to fix housing, bus driver's son to freeze fares, Muslim to fight extremists, business experience to support business, family man to fight pollution. Layout not great and handicapped by late position, but content well packaged. Almost only candidate to mention business.

    Sian Berry, Green - homes, fares, bank of small business, community policing, green energy. Text-light but does the job.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
    Convert to freedom of movement?

    Listen, why do you need to tell lies? I am PRO freedom of movement, its you that doesn't want doctors from the sub continent coming in and exposing you.
    When have I opposed medical migration from abroad? You may have me confused with another poster.

    But I am glad that you are now in favour of freedom of movement.
    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.
    I recall that you objected to the income requirement to bring in a spouse. Have you changed your opinion on this?
    Nope. Congratulations on a red herring.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited April 2016

    DavidL said:

    I can't see how the Republicans can ignore both their first and second placed candidates if no one else is anywhere near them in delegate numbers and the rules would need to be changed to do so (unless one or both of them willingly stepped aside). It would be an affront to democracy.

    The question of Ted Cruz's eligibility is a red herring, which is why it has gone away. Indeed, a New Jersey court ruled this week that he is eligible. This link gives details and explains why it's unlikely to be a showstopper:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/14/new-jersey-court-rules-that-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen-eligible-to-become-president/

    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.
    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
    1150 isn't 1236. If Donald Trump hasn't reached 1236 nominees, he has no inalienable right to the nomination. He has the moral right in such circumstances to be considered first, but if once considered he appears inappropriate, he can be passed over in favour of a more suitable eligible candidate.

    The question is: is there one?
    Several. The remarkable thing about this election is the candidates' inverse relationship between democratic legitimacy and electability.
    Except that under GOP rules there are only going to be two eligible candidates...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Just tactically, I'd wait to lay him until after he's had a crushing NY victory, as it seems he's about to do. Whether I'd lay him then I'm not sure.

    Is there a link to Cruz's more outrageous positions, by the way? - I have a general impression of nastiness and fanaticism, but I don't really know the details.

    O/T: the Mayoral information leaflets (not yet the postal voting papers) have arrived, a neat little booklet. Everyone gets two A5 pages, in randomly-selected order. They are:

    Sophie Walker, Women' Equality - professionally done, highlights equal pay, combating violence vs women, childcare and transport. Could well get a decent 1st preference share.

    Lee Harris, Cannabis is Safer Than Alcohol - amateur effort

    Zac Goldsmith - homes, transport, environment, neighbourhood policing. Positive pitch, Tories only mentioned in passing at the end. I like it but it's quite text-heavy

    David Furness, BNP - immigration, Christianity. BNP highlighted, very little about the candidate. Cites Archbishop of Canterbury approvingly, but won't appeal beyond the traditional BNP vote.

    Caroline Pidgeon, LibDem - housing, more police, child minders, transport. Lots of pictures, not bad.

    Paul Golding, Britain First - immigrants, anti-EU, anti-Islamist, hate preachers, Christianity. Nasty IMO but turbocharged BNP style, could outpoll Furness.

    George Galloway, Respect - very text-heavy and even a bit hard to read. Vote me for peace, justice, equality, better deal for everyone. Vague.

    Peter Whittle, UKIP - immigration, housing, stop translation services, back stop and search, and immigration again. Pictured with Farage. Reinforces impression that UKIP is only about immigration.

    Sadiq Khan - links policies to person - council estate boy to fix housing, bus driver's son to freeze fares, Muslim to fight extremists, business experience to support business, family man to fight pollution. Layout not great and handicapped by late position, but content well packaged. Almost only candidate to mention business.

    Sian Berry, Green - homes, fares, bank of small business, community policing, green energy. Text-light but does the job.

    Khan looks like winning against Dodo goldsmith with his hands tied behind his back, so late position in the booklet is probably fine.

    I like the idea of the booklets though. It presumably means all candidates get at least one chance to get their message out without preventing those with armies of supporters pushing their message better.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,048

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    Getting to the front of the queue is only slightly to do with ability. With another name, it's possible that she might have been. You'd probably have to sketch out a career where she ended up as Obama's VP (which isn't impossible as she'd potentially balance his ticket in several ways).

    But yes, the most dominant factor in her becoming president is that she's married to the 42nd president. Same as the 43rd was the son of the 41st. What are the chances, eh?
    As I said the probability is extraordinary. Onlookers find the whole thing bizarre.
    For a republic the US has managed to keep ruling in the family quite a bit - Adams, Roosevelt, Harrison etc.

    Looking it up, FDR was related to 5 previous presidents by blood & 6 others by marriage.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    DavidL said:



    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.

    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
    But at least he was in the race - and handily beat the other people in the race. And I suspect that many of Kasich's delegates would be more likely to support Trump than Cruz, who., let's remember, was the most detested of the main candidates by the Republican great and good before Trump took the mantle.

    There is one thing that people might be able to help me with. We are told that Trump couldn't stand as an independent because he wouldn't be on the ballot paper in about 45 states. So how does the brokered convention candidate get on the ballot paper? Is there just a space reserved for The Republican Party Candidate (whosoever they be)? Or is it far messier than that?
    It is messier - the rules vary from state to state - but the main obstacles to a Trump independent run are twofold.

    Firstly, the deadline for independent candidates tends to be far earlier than the deadlines for party-supported candidates. I don't know but I'd presume that there's a similar provision for the registration of new parties as well, to prevent independents from side-stepping the deadline in that way. Many deadlines fall before the convention. So yes, in effect there is a blank space for 'Republican' and 'Democrat', should they opt to use it.

    And secondly, several states have 'sore loser' rules that prevent any candidate that ran in a primary within one party from contesting the general election for any other or as an independent. In other words, Trump could only stand as a Republican. A brokered convention wouldn't be affected by the rule even if the ultimate candidate hadn't contested the primary at all (all that matters is that he or she hadn't contested one for a different party).
  • Options
    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited April 2016
    If one is prepared to at least consider the increasingly held view that the eventual Republican Nominee is not yet even in the race and that one also discounts also the chances of those who have already fallen by the wayside, incl Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Ben Carson, Chris Christie, etc. as well as the sometimes touted Paul Ryan who I find deeply unimpressive, one is then left with some very tasty odds on offer from Betfair for the next raft of possible contenders including the following sextet:

    Mitt Romney .............. 250
    Scott Walker .............. 900
    Mike Pence ................ 860
    Michael Bloomberg .... 880
    Rick Santorum .......... 1000
    John Huntsman ........ 1000

    Might it be worth just a few quid backing such as these (and possibly a handful of others in addition to or instead of the above-named) for the minimum Betfair stake of £2 apiece?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Yes, a booklet is appealling. I suspect that it boosts the minor party votes as our multi party debates did last May.

    We get a similar booklet with our BMA council elections, and it certainly helps choose between candidates.

    Zac is toast IMHO.

    Did any candidate come out in favour of Heathrow expansion or is that electoral suicide?



  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016
    Indigo said:


    I recall that you objected to the income requirement to bring in a spouse. Have you changed your opinion on this?

    Nope. Congratulations on a red herring.
    To enlarge on this. The requirement to get a spousal visa in say Australia is a) be married to an Australian, b) not be a crook and c) not have an untreated tuberculosis. Period.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Pulpstar said:

    wait till after 26th to lay Trump I think - he has a great run of states incoming

    Actually, that's a very fair point.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Golly, gloves off

    How can Jews vote for Corbyn, asks former BBC chief Danny Cohen http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ex-bbc-chief-jews-should-not-back-corbyns-labour-27xlhlq3x
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,048
    edited April 2016
    Indigo said:


    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.

    The 2 Glasgow airport bombers were respectively a doctor and a PHD engineering student (though the former was in fact UK born). Not simple to winnow out the contributors from the 'criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers'.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:


    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.

    The 2 Glasgow airport bombers were respectively a doctor and an PHD engineering student (though the former was in fact UK born). Not simple to winnow out the contributors from the 'criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers'.
    Sure, nothing is perfect, is that an argument for not trying ?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Indigo said:


    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.

    The 2 Glasgow airport bombers were respectively a doctor and an PHD engineering student (though the former was in fact UK born). Not simple to winnow out the contributors from the 'criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers'.
    The 7/7, Brussels and Paris terrorists were also not migrants. Even the 9/11 terrorists had legitimate study visas to be in the USA.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited April 2016

    malcolmg said:

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    That has no bearing on the US bean feast , it is all down to how much money and pork barrel friends you can muster.
    Yes, British politics is a little better in that respect.

    I cannot see a way out of this mess for the Republicans. They have to have a candidate, and if anything other than Trump there will be accusations of a backroom fix, and no point in a fix if it is likely to fall apart or be inadequate. Probably the best option is to accept the inevitable and get on board with Trump and hope to soften his rougher edges.

    I am green on this race but best with Cruz or Kasich. I cannot see much value either backing or laying Trump at this point.

    Hillary will be an excellent President.

    The mess the GOP are in is squarely of their own making. They failed to heed their own report post the 2012 defeat and have retreated to their continued reliance on white males which is a shrinking demographic generally and more importantly in several swing states.

    It's been some time coming but the writing was on the wall in New Mexico that George Bush II won but is now solidly blue. The trend is now the same in hispanic rich and growing states such as Nevada, Colorado, Florida and Arizona. Long term we will also see this in Texas. The DC suburbs are trending Virginia blue and slowly North Carolina is moving too.

    Presently the GOP cannot and appears unwilling to square this POTUS circle.

  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,048
    Jonathan said:

    Woke up feeling a bit LEAVE-y this morning. Odd.

    Shouldn't have eaten that Brie at bedtime.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    What are they thinking?

    The leader of striking junior doctors pleaded with colleagues to exempt sick children from the first total walkout in NHS history, but was overruled. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/strike-doctors-ignore-leaders-plea-to-protect-sick-children-df8wv77jf
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Golly, gloves off

    How can Jews vote for Corbyn, asks former BBC chief Danny Cohen http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/ex-bbc-chief-jews-should-not-back-corbyns-labour-27xlhlq3x

    A really remarkable piece of journalism: three lines about anti-semitism in the Labour party, and the rest a dirge on Cohens personal clashes inside the BBC.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I see that Boris Johnson has taken Nigel Farage's historical ignorance displayed yesterday as a challenge.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2016

    FPT

    Got to chuckle at NHS workers talking about market forces. I'd be absolutely delighted for us to let in doctors from abroad who would happily work for a fraction of what our junior doctors are grizzling about.

    Then we'd see market forces in action.

    This is the thing about freedom of movement and the fatuous nature of the argument, pull factors have to be taken into account. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we are perfectly welcome in most places in the world where we are not entitled to benefit payments and housing.

    Oh and please, NHS doctors, you do a good job, thanks, please don't patronise us by saying your pay is subject to market forces.

    Glad to see you convert to free movement of workers to the UK. Heaven has a place for the sinner who repents!

    Doctors are pretty relaxed about migrant doctors coming here to work. We all work with foreign colleagues as about 40% of British registered doctors trained abroad.

    Junior doctors jobs are not a free market, the government is a monopoly employer for training posts, and is enforcing that monopoly position. When the Foundation Trusts (who have the freedom to depart from national terms and conditions) started floating the idea of sticking with the old contract rather than imposing the new contract they were threatened by Health Education England with not getting any junior staff.

    One characteristic of this govt is that it only likes market forces when it benefits them, not when it benefits the employee.

    Not too far from Blackburn this hospital has had to close its Emergency dept because it cannot staff it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-36042951

    Not many foreign doctors responding to those adverts - and if unfillable by a UK or EU candidate for 4 weeks any doctor in the world could apply.
    Convert to freedom of movement?

    Listen, why do you need to tell lies? I am PRO freedom of movement, its you that doesn't want doctors from the sub continent coming in and exposing you.
    When have I opposed medical migration from abroad? You may have me confused with another poster.

    But I am glad that you are now in favour of freedom of movement.
    What's your view on the freedom of business to relocate it's operations to another EU country?

    Say, NHS PLC relocated the production of 66,000 hip replacements to Eastern Europe? LatvianHS or PolishHS could almost certainly produce the same work for a third of the UK price.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:


    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.

    The 2 Glasgow airport bombers were respectively a doctor and an PHD engineering student (though the former was in fact UK born). Not simple to winnow out the contributors from the 'criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers'.
    The 7/7, Brussels and Paris terrorists were also not migrants. Even the 9/11 terrorists had legitimate study visas to be in the USA.
    Yes yes... so what is your point, that because we can't make a system perfect we shouldn't make it better ? Would like you like to bet if the 9/11 terrorists could get a study visa to the USA now, under the current regime ? Or is it because something about controlling who comes into the country offends your liberal values you are waving your hands around.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I see that Boris Johnson has taken Nigel Farage's historical ignorance displayed yesterday as a challenge.

    I suspect 99% voters won't notice or care. Boris is a salesman, and was selling quite well yesterday, I am not sure he is going to be that concerned about a few metropolitans scowling to their lattes over his historical accuracy ;)
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    DavidL said:



    But, but Rod told us....

    As I have said before when you go back to the 60s there were relatively few states who put the matter to the vote so the party at conference could choose. Now the people have spoken and these fantasises of someone who didn't put their head above the parapet, didn't get tested by the debates, didn't eat all the corndogs and didn't put in the miles is somehow an acceptable substitute is just old fashioned thinking.

    I tend to agree with that, which is why Cruz is by far the clear alternative and, to my mind, Kasich ought to be next in line.

    However, Trump's ratings do provide a legitimate argument for dropping him, irrespective of the primaries; arguably, the primaries have failed to do their job in that instance. The rules are that you have to cross the finishing line, not just get furthest before the flag falls. If Trump does end up on 1150 (say) then he hasn't crossed the finishing line and it remains game on.
    1150 isn't 1236. If Donald Trump hasn't reached 1236 nominees, he has no inalienable right to the nomination. He has the moral right in such circumstances to be considered first, but if once considered he appears inappropriate, he can be passed over in favour of a more suitable eligible candidate.

    The question is: is there one?
    Several. The remarkable thing about this election is the candidates' inverse relationship between democratic legitimacy and electability.
    Except that under GOP rules there are only going to be two eligible candidates...
    Not necessarily. Firstly, rule 40(b) needs to be reconfirmed before the convention - it's in the temporary section. If there is an establishment effort to draft someone else, expect the requirements to be diluted or deleted entirely. Also, the convention floor can overturn or amend any rule.

    Secondly, the rule as it stands only requires the majority support of eight delegations - not wins in eight states. Once delegates become unbound, other candidates could enter the race if they can generate the necessary support. Personally, I think that's unlikely - the bar is very high - but it is a possibility.
  • Options

    If one is prepared to at least consider the increasingly held view that the eventual Republican Nominee is not yet even in the race and that one also discounts also the chances of those who have already fallen by the wayside, incl Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Ben Carson, Chris Christie, etc. as well as the sometimes touted Paul Ryan who I find deeply unimpressive, one is then left with some very tasty odds on offer from Betfair for the next raft of possible contenders including the following sextet:

    Mitt Romney .............. 250
    Scott Walker .............. 900
    Mike Pence ................ 860
    Michael Bloomberg .... 880
    Rick Santorum .......... 1000
    John Huntsman ........ 1000

    Might it be worth just a few quid backing such as these (and possibly a handful of others in addition to or instead of the above-named) for the minimum Betfair stake of £2 apiece?

    I think you can rule out Huntsman as he is a very intelligent and reasonable person
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Pulpstar said:

    wait till after 26th to lay Trump I think - he has a great run of states incoming

    Actually, that's a very fair point.
    An even fairer point is that the history is moving Trumps way again.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JackW said:

    malcolmg said:

    A question about Hilary, bearing in mind I know nothing about her. The probability of a husband and wife both being capable of running the most powerful country in the world is extraordinary.

    If she had another name would she be anywhere near the front row of this pantomime?

    That has no bearing on the US bean feast , it is all down to how much money and pork barrel friends you can muster.
    Yes, British politics is a little better in that respect.

    I cannot see a way out of this mess for the Republicans. They have to have a candidate, and if anything other than Trump there will be accusations of a backroom fix, and no point in a fix if it is likely to fall apart or be inadequate. Probably the best option is to accept the inevitable and get on board with Trump and hope to soften his rougher edges.

    I am green on this race but best with Cruz or Kasich. I cannot see much value either backing or laying Trump at this point.

    Hillary will be an excellent President.

    The mess the GOP are in is squarely of their own making. They failed to heed their own report post the 2012 defeat and have retreated to their continued reliance on white males which is a shrinking demographic generally and more importantly in several swing states.

    It's been some time coming but the writing was on the wall in New Mexico that George Bush II won but is now solidly blue. The trend is now the same in hispanic rich and growing states such as Nevada, Colorado, Florida and Arizona. Long term we will also see this in Texas. The DC suburbs are trending Virginia blue and slowly North Carolina is moving too.

    Presently the GOP cannot and appears unwilling to square this POTUS circle.

    The GOP does rather look like the Tories a decade ago. They need a Cameron like moderniser who can recapture some centre ground support.

    This is more difficult in the USA as it does seem to be social rather than economic issues that divide the two parties. A Republican who advocated a more tolerant approach to abortion, immigration and the role of religion in national life and who concentrated on the economy is hard to imagine. Ironically Trump for all his many flaws actually is rather more moderate on these issues.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016

    Did any candidate come out in favour of Heathrow expansion or is that electoral suicide?

    Seems to be, as does saying anything nice about Uber apparently, which is a little odd, how many votes are there in buttering up black cab drivers ?

  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    What are they thinking?

    The leader of striking junior doctors pleaded with colleagues to exempt sick children from the first total walkout in NHS history, but was overruled. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/strike-doctors-ignore-leaders-plea-to-protect-sick-children-df8wv77jf

    They're thinking with their wallets. Cash before kids.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331

    Yes, a booklet is appealling. I suspect that it boosts the minor party votes as our multi party debates did last May.

    We get a similar booklet with our BMA council elections, and it certainly helps choose between candidates.

    Zac is toast IMHO.

    Did any candidate come out in favour of Heathrow expansion or is that electoral suicide?



    The BNP bloke opposes Heathrow (and Crossrail Chelsea). If anyone else mentioned the subject I missed it.

    Yes, booklet is good, though would perhaps be better sent with the voting papers. Reminds me of Swiss system for referenda, a booklet on every subject, with equal space for supporters, opponents and government, so they too load the dice for whoever the government is backing, though the Swiss are notably impervious to being told what to do.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:


    Freedom of movement for qualified, useful people that will contribute to society from anywhere in the world, for criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers, not so much... or as it is known in Canada and Australia, a points based system.

    The 2 Glasgow airport bombers were respectively a doctor and an PHD engineering student (though the former was in fact UK born). Not simple to winnow out the contributors from the 'criminals, terrorist supporters and spongers'.
    The 7/7, Brussels and Paris terrorists were also not migrants. Even the 9/11 terrorists had legitimate study visas to be in the USA.
    Yes yes... so what is your point, that because we can't make a system perfect we shouldn't make it better ? Would like you like to bet if the 9/11 terrorists could get a study visa to the USA now, under the current regime ? Or is it because something about controlling who comes into the country offends your liberal values you are waving your hands around.
    No, I am entirely in favour of reducing migration from places where jihadists roam, and restricting spouse and family settlement, and an active deportation policy are all part of that.

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