Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump set for big victory in New York – Hillary projected t

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump set for big victory in New York – Hillary projected to win Dems race

politicalbetting.com is proudly powered by WordPress
with "Neat!" theme. Entries (RSS) and Comments (RSS).

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Another 2 CD are razor thing above 50 for Trump.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    My estimate is that Trump will be bellow 50 in 3-5 CD from N.Y., so he will get 90-92 delegates.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,399
    2nd ... like that expansive betting chappie on the last thread will be if Trumpy-Pumpy loses.
  • Options
    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,777
    MattW said:

    2nd ... like that expansive betting chappie on the last thread will be if Trumpy-Pumpy loses.

    Trumpy McTrumpface?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Trump now losing CD-10 and CD -12 to Kasich, that cuts a further 2 delegates off, so now he is at 88-90.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    Numbers have changed again, Trump back in the lead in CD-10 and CD-12.

    Trump is in safe territory above 50 in 17 out of 27 CD.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Speedy said:

    Numbers have changed again, Trump back in the lead in CD-10 and CD-12.

    Which page has the CD info?
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    AndyJS said:

    Speedy said:

    Numbers have changed again, Trump back in the lead in CD-10 and CD-12.

    Which page has the CD info?
    http://nyenr.elections.state.ny.us/Home.aspx
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    Very weird swings going on in CD-10 and CD-12, now Trump winning CD-12 with almost 60%, a few moments ago he was losing it.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Speedy said:

    Numbers have changed again, Trump back in the lead in CD-10 and CD-12.

    Which page has the CD info?
    http://nyenr.elections.state.ny.us/Home.aspx
    Ta.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited April 2016
    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
  • Options
    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,777
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    Rod. Can you link to your model or else tell us what final tally you currently project for Trump. Ta.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    stjohn said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    Rod. Can you link to your model or else tell us what final tally you currently project for Trump. Ta.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MHRYdL8Lw3L6OXiHnKZHi1vo6vUblQhuKg7FPDFuuQ0/edit?usp=sharing

    May or may not fall slightly short in pledged delegates. Unbound will see him over the line, imho.

    And he'll win in November.
  • Options
    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,777
    RodCrosby said:

    stjohn said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    Rod. Can you link to your model or else tell us what final tally you currently project for Trump. Ta.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MHRYdL8Lw3L6OXiHnKZHi1vo6vUblQhuKg7FPDFuuQ0/edit?usp=sharing

    May or may not fall slightly short in pledged delegates. Unbound will see him over the line, imho.

    And he'll win in November.
    Thanks.

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Trump has taken 81% in Staten Island with 99% reporting.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited April 2016
    If I had to pick a number now for Trump overall I'd say 1213 (not including the unbound), but it could easily be over 1237...

    All the talk about denying him the nomination has been just that - talk. A kind of psychological warfare by the GOP establishment.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
    Well 2 CD's have him at 49.98 and 49.65, and he's bellow 50 in another 3, and between 51-52 in another 2.
    CD-25 has completed it's count with Trump at 51.41.

    But he's safe in 20 out of 27, so 88 delegates minimum.

    Goodnight, or goodmorning.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
    Well 2 CD's have him at 49.98 and 49.65, and he's bellow 50 in another 3, and between 51-52 in another 2.
    CD-25 has completed it's count with Trump at 51.41.

    But he's safe in 20 out of 27, so 88 delegates minimum.
    Looking like 90-92.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
    Well 2 CD's have him at 49.98 and 49.65, and he's bellow 50 in another 3, and between 51-52 in another 2.
    CD-25 has completed it's count with Trump at 51.41.

    But he's safe in 20 out of 27, so 88 delegates minimum.
    Looking like 90-92.
    Could be, but 88-92 is probably a just estimate.

    Trump outperformed his polls a bit this time, that's a rarity, he only managed to do that in Arizona I think.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
    Well 2 CD's have him at 49.98 and 49.65, and he's bellow 50 in another 3, and between 51-52 in another 2.
    CD-25 has completed it's count with Trump at 51.41.

    But he's safe in 20 out of 27, so 88 delegates minimum.
    Looking like 90-92.
    Is there a live CD count somewhere ?
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited April 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
    Well 2 CD's have him at 49.98 and 49.65, and he's bellow 50 in another 3, and between 51-52 in another 2.
    CD-25 has completed it's count with Trump at 51.41.

    But he's safe in 20 out of 27, so 88 delegates minimum.
    Looking like 90-92.
    Is there a live CD count somewhere ?
    http://nyenr.elections.state.ny.us/Home.aspx

    You have to hit Search to refresh.

    Trump is winning every CD, but in up to five may miss the 50% clean sweep threshold.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    correction: Kasich noses ahead in the 12th...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    edited April 2016
    -1 10th
    -2 12th (Kasich has won)
    13th is on a knife edge for 0 or -1
    20th -1
    24th -1

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    13th looking good for Trump, just 1 (relatively poor) Manhattan to come in. But 18 more Bronx should see him over 50%
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    90 delegates looks like to me.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,577
    edited April 2016
    I see there's a new Mapplethorpe film out - celebs showing up for the premier:

    David Furnish enjoyed a fun night out in London with a bevvy of pals on Tuesday evening.

    The Canadian filmmaker, 53, looked handsome in a smart ensemble as he joined his shoe designer friend Patrick Cox for a VIP screening of new documentary, Mapplethorpe: Look At The Pictures.

    Joined by the moviemaker Fenton Bailey, the trio looked relaxed and chilled as they stepped out at upmarket cinema, The Curzon Mayfair.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3548723/Beaming-David-Furnish-looks-dapper-suave-suit-jacket-leather-waistcoat-enjoys-boys-night-movie-screening-shoe-designer-pal-Patrick-Cox.html
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    New York - 98% reporting

    Trump 60.5 (89) .. Kasich 25.1 (3) .. Cruz 14.5

    Clinton 57.9 (135) .. Sanders 42.1 (104)

    Via RCP
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    RodCrosby said:

    If I had to pick a number now for Trump overall I'd say 1213 (not including the unbound), but it could easily be over 1237...

    All the talk about denying him the nomination has been just that - talk. A kind of psychological warfare by the GOP establishment.

    If he's over 1200 that's close enough, IMHO.
  • Options

    RodCrosby said:

    If I had to pick a number now for Trump overall I'd say 1213 (not including the unbound), but it could easily be over 1237...

    All the talk about denying him the nomination has been just that - talk. A kind of psychological warfare by the GOP establishment.

    If he's over 1200 that's close enough, IMHO.
    It would certainly not encourage Trump supporters who are nearly half of Republicans to vote for GOP in senate and house elections if the party denied him the nomination if he was anywhere near.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917

    I see there's a new Mapplethorpe film out - celebs showing up for the premier:

    David Furnish enjoyed a fun night out in London with a bevvy of pals on Tuesday evening.

    The Canadian filmmaker, 53, looked handsome in a smart ensemble as he joined his shoe designer friend Patrick Cox for a VIP screening of new documentary, Mapplethorpe: Look At The Pictures.

    Joined by the moviemaker Fenton Bailey, the trio looked relaxed and chilled as they stepped out at upmarket cinema, The Curzon Mayfair.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3548723/Beaming-David-Furnish-looks-dapper-suave-suit-jacket-leather-waistcoat-enjoys-boys-night-movie-screening-shoe-designer-pal-Patrick-Cox.html

    David is lucky to have so many close friends and an adoring husband too. What a perfect world he lives in.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917
    Have there been figures yet for the turnouts in the Democrat and Republican votes?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Speedy said:

    Trump bellow 50 in 4 CD and winning all CD's so far, but the results are swinging a bit.
    Trump's margin is safely over 50 in 20 out of 27 CD's.

    Anyhow, looks like Trump will continue to outperform my model, as he has done already.

    Maybe 12-14 delegates closer to the nom than yesterday's prediction.
    I wouldn't open the champagne yet for Trump about the N.Y. results.
    Some of them are definitely too close, it could make him go from 92 down to 85.
    I doubt it.
    Well 2 CD's have him at 49.98 and 49.65, and he's bellow 50 in another 3, and between 51-52 in another 2.
    CD-25 has completed it's count with Trump at 51.41.

    But he's safe in 20 out of 27, so 88 delegates minimum.

    Goodnight, or goodmorning.
    Below only has one L! Though in Trump's case your spelling might be appropriate.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    RodCrosby said:

    If I had to pick a number now for Trump overall I'd say 1213 (not including the unbound), but it could easily be over 1237...

    All the talk about denying him the nomination has been just that - talk. A kind of psychological warfare by the GOP establishment.

    If he's over 1200 that's close enough, IMHO.
    I agree.

    However, I'm not sure he will get that far. NY was an excellent result - one of the few times he's outperformed the polls - but was also his home state. The next round will be more instructive as to what he'll finish up with.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Tom Harris has his 2p
    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning.
    I hope @Speedy is having a good sleep. Chortle. :)
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/



    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.



    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,136
    Big, big win for Trump last night and a wipeout for Cruz in one of the larger states in the Union. The stories of Trump having stalled, self-destructed etc are looking somewhat exaggerated this morning and he will be back to his boisterous self in the next few contests. A lot depends on how decisively he wins California but I think he still has a decent chance of reaching 1237.

    For Hillary it is a good solid win which will hopefully stop the rot but she was a long way from smashing Sanders out of the park. Her road to victory still looks a bit of a slog rather than a procession.

    In November I think it will be much closer than the odds seem to be indicating. A 72% chance of a Clinton win is ridiculous.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    Junkers comments splashed all over the front-pages are most peculiar. I can't tell if it's fake admission to show some empathy or genuine acceptance. I can't see it making a jot of difference to the Eurocrats actual behaviour

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...


    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,322
    edited April 2016
    Nate Silver's delegate predictions, written before New York but with the NY result included in the range of possibilities (it's close to the "road to 1237" scenario):

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/

    I think he's now an 85% shot. Whether he'll be quite as hopeless for the main election as most think is another matter. He's perfectly capable of reinventing himself as a moderate, leaving his negatives as being crude (which a lot of people don't mind) and unreliable (which maybe they factor into politicians). I think Clinton (who is clearly going to be the Democratic nominee) will be the favourite, but say a 60-65% shot.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    edited April 2016

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    Junkers comments splashed all over the front-pages are most peculiar. I can't tell if it's fake admission to show some empathy or genuine acceptance. I can't see it making a jot of difference to the Eurocrats actual behaviour

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...


    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.
    Junkers=good cop, Osborne=bad cop
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    Junkers comments splashed all over the front-pages are most peculiar. I can't tell if it's fake admission to show some empathy or genuine acceptance. I can't see it making a jot of difference to the Eurocrats actual behaviour

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...


    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.
    I think he's trying to respond to Gove's EU-wide broadside, if the timing fits.

    But, yes: I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2016
    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,136

    Nate Silver's delegate predictions, written before New York but with the NY result included in the range of possibilities (it's close to the "road to 1237" scenario):

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-state-by-state-roadmap-for-the-rest-of-the-republican-primary/

    I think he's now an 85% shot. Whether he'll be quite as hopeless for the main election as most think is another matter. He's perfectly capable of reinventing himself as a moderate, leaving his negatives as being crude (which a lot of people don't mind) and unreliable (which maybe they factor into politicians). I think Clinton (who is clearly going to be the Democratic nominee) will be the favourite, but say a 60-65% shot.

    That's pretty much how I see it. Maybe even closer. Trump will pivot to the centre and he just might bring some states into play that republicans can't normally get near. Of course he may also lose some Hispanic heavy states the republicans might normally look to pick up. It won't be boring.

    I think Trump will do a deal with Kasich to try and get Ohio and to bring more of the party together. It will also help his "moderate" credentials to have him on the ticket.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Pulpstar said:

    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz

    New York does not value Cruz....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Trump has his targetting hat on:

    Next stop Indiana


    Donald J. Trump Verified account
    @realDonaldTrump

    Join me in Indianapolis, Indiana tomorrow at 3pm! #Trump2016

    Absolubtely CRUCIAL state.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    Junkers comments splashed all over the front-pages are most peculiar. I can't tell if it's fake admission to show some empathy or genuine acceptance. I can't see it making a jot of difference to the Eurocrats actual behaviour

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...


    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.
    It may be genuine that he sees that it annoys people, but won't lead to a change, he still says they need to work together more economically, and no way they do do for that and not continue imposing in other areas. It's the classic eu move of acknowledging concerns but then never addressing it, in the hope that acknowledging us enough, as either they cannot do anything, or are unwilling to do what it takes to spaddress it,msuch as stop meddling.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...
    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.

    It was the director of Vote Leave that suggested an economic model like Albania. Perhaps he has spent a lot of time with Jeremy Corbyn! To be fair it would reverse the migration issue...
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    kle4 said:

    Junkers comments splashed all over the front-pages are most peculiar. I can't tell if it's fake admission to show some empathy or genuine acceptance. I can't see it making a jot of difference to the Eurocrats actual behaviour

    Tom Harris has his 2p

    His comments today about the “bogeyman” approach adopted by the Remain campaign are well timed and accurate. And it says a great deal about how little confidence the Remain camp have in their own arguments.

    Why waste time on inventing imaginary and hypothetical scenarios to attack when they have the wonderful, positive, life-affirming reality of life in the EU all around them?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/remainers-dare-not-be-honest-about-the-eu--so-they-peddle-images/

    If the scenarios being provided by the Leave side are not credible then it's important to point that out. There are few Euro-enthusiasts on the Remain side, from what I can tell; just a lot of people who believe that we are better off in than out.

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...


    Personally, I think Remain need to be careful that they don't mock Britain as looking just like Albania or Bosnia if it were independent, which I might find insulting if I didn't find it so funny.

    But, hey, what do I know.
    It may be genuine that he sees that it annoys people, but won't lead to a change, he still says they need to work together more economically, and no way they do do for that and not continue imposing in other areas. It's the classic eu move of acknowledging concerns but then never addressing it, in the hope that acknowledging us enough, as either they cannot do anything, or are unwilling to do what it takes to spaddress it,msuch as stop meddling.
    And, after much reflection and agonising, the answer will be: More Europe.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,136

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz

    New York does not value Cruz....
    Don't think any of the 5 states voting on April 26th will much value him either and 3 are winner takes all. I think after that he will be out of sight and the only question will be if he wins outright.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.
    Ah, so the criticism - probably a fair one - is that it's not quite as simple as Gove made out. The idea that Leave is saying that Britain will look like Albania or Bosnia* was a wilful misinterpretation of what Gove was saying.

    * Not that there's anything wrong with those countries
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Huge win for Trump last night taking over 60% and sweeping the delegates and a clear win for Hillary too, a Trump v Clinton general election has just moved another step closer
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/these-are-the-psychological-tricks-both-sides-of-the-eu-debate-are-playing-on-you-and-how-to-a6991226.html
    That’s by no means the only psychological bias battleground in this referendum campaign. Psychologists talk of the power of “framing”. Which sounds more appealing: 90 per cent fat-free or 10 per cent fat? Advertisers know the answer, which is why one never sees the latter formulation even though they describe the same product.

    Now consider which sounds like a more compelling argument in the context of an EU membership vote. “Almost half of everything we sell to the rest of the world we sell to Europe,” says the Stronger in Europe campaign. “British reliance on trade with the EU has fallen to an all-time low,” proclaim the Outers. The fact that both sound compelling - and both describe the same statistics - shows that the two campaigns grasp the importance of framing.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Tis a shame then that Hannan is proposing we give up running a large part of our affairs to other people then
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited April 2016
    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    The French unsurprisingly least keen, 41% want the UK to leave 59% to stay. After all it was Dr Gaulle who vetoed UK entry to the EEC in the first place
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    edited April 2016
    Vote Leave put up Liam Fox, perhaps the biggest Americaphile in their camp, to counter the American letter on R4 just now. It was weak. There is a powerful anti-establishment argument to be made here and Vote Leave aren't capable of making it.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    You also need to look at the overall welfare gains from all the trade pattern changes exiting the EU would bring about - and there would certainly be quite large changes over time, I think (again this is where the Treasury analysis is flawed). Shifting from relatively expensive EU sources of supply to cheaper non-EU ones after exiting the EU will bring welfare gains.

    What we really have going on here is basically a lot of special interests announcing that 'they are the economy' and demanding their special position be maintained. But the essence of a successful economy is not fossilisation of the pattern of supply, helped by trade protection, but the opposite i.e. adaptability and change.

    You might also be interested to know that parts of the European left are getting nervous about the proposed TTIP on the basis that some estimates suggest it will lead to a reduction (possibly quite a large one) in intra-EU trade, something that will 'damage European integration'. That gives you some idea about what EU trade deals are really all about.

  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Perhaps they should offer a less crappy deal then! There are plenty of Tories who would have been happy to Remain with Dave expect for the crappy deal and subsequent scandalous overselling and general lying.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    To summarise, Vote Leave are shit.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Hardly surprising considering they all benefit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    Indigo said:

    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Perhaps they should offer a less crappy deal then!.
    Indeed. Fact is, they may want us to stay but don't accept any of our continued concerns as valid, as they feel they've offered enough or even too much, whereas of the persuadable many here do not feel enough has been offered. So their desire for us to stay has no weight. If I want something but am not prepared to do things to get it, to pay the price even if can pay it, well I clearly do t want it that much.

    Or I think I'll have it coming regardless.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    HYUFD said:

    Huge win for Trump last night taking over 60% and sweeping the delegates and a clear win for Hillary too, a Trump v Clinton general election has just moved another step closer

    Looks that way. And thank god someone's talking about US election and not the bl**dy EU :-)
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    To summarise, Vote Leave are shit.

    You're not going all wobbly on us, are you Luckyguy?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Hardly surprising considering they all benefit.
    Not surprising that the Germans are most keen to have someone to shoulder the load. I was surprised at how keen the Spanish were relative to the Poles. Given the number of Poles working in Britain, I would have expected that to be the other way around.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645
    On topic, I wish sanders would quit already. He isn't going to win and the efforts of his supporters to think they have a shot still is getting a little sad. Though I suppose he's having fun.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz

    New York does not value Cruz....
    Don't think any of the 5 states voting on April 26th will much value him either and 3 are winner takes all. I think after that he will be out of sight and the only question will be if he wins outright.
    Could still come down to California.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Maryland - PPP

    Trump 43 .. Kasich 29 .. Cruz 24
    Clinton 58 .. Sanders 33

    Clinton 61 .. Trump 28
    Clinton 58 .. Cruz 24
    Clinton 54 .. Kasich 33

    Sanders 60 .. Trump 29
    Sanders 62 .. Cruz 24
    Sanders 52 .. Kasich 32

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_MD_41916.pdf
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz

    New York does not value Cruz....
    Don't think any of the 5 states voting on April 26th will much value him either and 3 are winner takes all. I think after that he will be out of sight and the only question will be if he wins outright.
    Could still come down to California.
    Both of you are undoubtedly right, Trump's ability to close this out will fall between 0 and 172 delegates in CA. It's been likely for a while.

    There will be two Trump takes most states next week, plus winner takes all in Connecticut and the rump 17 in PA
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Hardly surprising considering they all benefit.
    Not surprising that the Germans are most keen to have someone to shoulder the load. I was surprised at how keen the Spanish were relative to the Poles. Given the number of Poles working in Britain, I would have expected that to be the other way around.
    Well having a buoyant consumer market ready to absorb excess production and excess workforce when your economy is depressed is a helpful thing. The UK is operating as a safety valve for these economies.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz

    New York does not value Cruz....
    Don't think any of the 5 states voting on April 26th will much value him either and 3 are winner takes all. I think after that he will be out of sight and the only question will be if he wins outright.
    Could still come down to California.
    Both of you are undoubtedly right, Trump's ability to close this out will fall between 0 and 172 delegates in CA. It's been likely for a while.

    There will be two Trump takes most states next week, plus winner takes all in Connecticut and the rump 17 in PA
    I mean Delaware not connecticut
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Hardly surprising considering they all benefit.
    Not surprising that the Germans are most keen to have someone to shoulder the load. I was surprised at how keen the Spanish were relative to the Poles. Given the number of Poles working in Britain, I would have expected that to be the other way around.
    The current trend is for lots of young Spanairds to work in the UK as they have poor job prospects at home
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    kle4 said:

    On topic, I wish sanders would quit already. He isn't going to win and the efforts of his supporters to think they have a shot still is getting a little sad. Though I suppose he's having fun.

    Sanders will stay through to the convention and try and influence the platform. His next big decision is whether he dials down the rhetoric following more defeats next Tuesday in the closed primaries of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut and Delaware. Sanders has a shot at the open contest in Rhode Island but it'll be small consolation.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    runnymede said:

    tlg86 said:

    Wh.

    I
    The

    It

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    You also need to look at the overall welfare gains from all the trade pattern changes exiting the EU would bring about - and there would certainly be quite large changes over time, I think (again this is where the Treasury analysis is flawed). Shifting from relatively expensive EU sources of supply to cheaper non-EU ones after exiting the EU will bring welfare gains.

    What we really have going on here is basically a lot of special interests announcing that 'they are the economy' and demanding their special position be maintained. But the essence of a successful economy is not fossilisation of the pattern of supply, helped by trade protection, but the opposite i.e. adaptability and change.

    You might also be interested to know that parts of the European left are getting nervous about the proposed TTIP on the basis that some estimates suggest it will lead to a reduction (possibly quite a large one) in intra-EU trade, something that will 'damage European integration'. That gives you some idea about what EU trade deals are really all about.

    I think this is what it all comes down to.

    If you think the single market, as it's currently constituted, is Britain's economic future, that it should be deepened in services, not lightened, and, therefore, even having 1/28th of the say in the rules is better than none, plus you're doing well, don't want any short-term economic disruption and you're not too bothered by concepts of sovereignty or politics, then you're probably going to be for Remain.

    If, however, you think the UK's future is global, that the EU will form an ever shrinking proportion of our trade, that it increasingly be dominated by the eurozone, outvoting the UK, that the limited influence we'll retain doesn't compensate for the shared powers the EU has over the UK with its permanent QMV majority, and that it makes sense for the UK to be represented on global bodies itself independently and able to control its own trade deals, that you're confident an independent UK can be just as successful as other smaller anglosphere nations, controlling both its own laws and borders, even if this causes some short term disruption to the existing economic order, but you feel it has to be done and it won't be that bad, then you're probably going to be for Leave.
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,896
    edited April 2016
    runnymede said:

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    What makes you think that the "magic" of the EU isn't contributing to the UK's international trade?

    For example, the fact that parts made in the UK must comply with EU standards and regulations means that a manufacturer based in a third country can safely import them for use in building machinery intended for export back to the EU. If the UK is no longer part of the single market, then this manufacturer cannot be sure that the parts made in the UK are compliant with EU law, thus making UK suppliers less attractive to third country manufacturers.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    runnymede said:

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    What makes you think that the "magic" of the EU isn't contributing to the UK's international trade?

    For example, the fact that parts made in the UK must comply with EU standards and regulations means that manufacturer based in a third country can safely import them for use in building machinery intended for export back to the EU. If the UK is no longer part of the single market, then this manufacturer cannot be sure that the parts made in the UK are compliant with EU law, thus making UK suppliers less attractive to third country manufacturers.

    suggest he tries installing a quality system then.

    batch traceability isn't that difficult these days.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536


    I think this is what it all comes down to.

    If you think the single market, as it's currently constituted, is Britain's economic future, that it should be deepened in services, not lightened, and, therefore, even having 1/28th of the say in the rules is better than none, plus you're doing well, don't want any short-term economic disruption and you're not too bothered by concepts of sovereignty or politics, then you're probably going to be for Remain.

    If, however, you think the UK's future is global, that the EU will form an ever shrinking proportion of our trade, that it increasingly be dominated by the eurozone, outvoting the UK, that the limited influence we'll retain doesn't compensate for the shared powers the EU has over the UK with its permanent QMV majority, and that it makes sense for the UK to be represented on global bodies itself independently and able to control its own trade deals, that you're confident an independent UK can be just as successful as other smaller anglosphere nations, controlling both its own laws and borders, even if this causes some short term disruption to the existing economic order, but you feel it has to be done and it won't be that bad, then you're probably going to be for Leave.


    ---------------------------------------------------

    At the end of the day, it is all about the politics, not the economics. The purpose of the EU and the trade structures it creates, is to further European political integration. If you favour that, vote REMAIN.

    If you are unhappy about EU political integration, you should vote LEAVE. Happily, this is also the better long run option economically. If you want to vote on narrowly economic grounds, you should also vote LEAVE.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    JackW said:

    kle4 said:

    On topic, I wish sanders would quit already. He isn't going to win and the efforts of his supporters to think they have a shot still is getting a little sad. Though I suppose he's having fun.

    Sanders will stay through to the convention and try and influence the platform. His next big decision is whether he dials down the rhetoric following more defeats next Tuesday in the closed primaries of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut and Delaware. Sanders has a shot at the open contest in Rhode Island but it'll be small consolation.
    I'd agree with all that.

    Worth also remembering that the flip side of all those superdelegates is that technically, Hillary won't win a definitive majority off bound delegates alone before the convention. As such, Sanders can legitimately continue to campaign on the notional argument that he could persuade the supers to change their mind - and the real one that his continued presence will influence the debate. Which is, after all, exactly what Hillary did in 2008 in a near-identical position.
  • Options

    runnymede said:

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    What makes you think that the "magic" of the EU isn't contributing to the UK's international trade?

    For example, the fact that parts made in the UK must comply with EU standards and regulations means that manufacturer based in a third country can safely import them for use in building machinery intended for export back to the EU. If the UK is no longer part of the single market, then this manufacturer cannot be sure that the parts made in the UK are compliant with EU law, thus making UK suppliers less attractive to third country manufacturers.

    suggest he tries installing a quality system then.

    batch traceability isn't that difficult these days.
    Whatever he does, it's extra hassle that he didn't have before and will therefore make UK suppliers less attractive (i.e. most costly) for him.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    runnymede said:

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    What makes you think that the "magic" of the EU isn't contributing to the UK's international trade?

    For example, the fact that parts made in the UK must comply with EU standards and regulations means that manufacturer based in a third country can safely import them for use in building machinery intended for export back to the EU. If the UK is no longer part of the single market, then this manufacturer cannot be sure that the parts made in the UK are compliant with EU law, thus making UK suppliers less attractive to third country manufacturers.

    suggest he tries installing a quality system then.

    batch traceability isn't that difficult these days.
    Whatever he does, it's extra hassle that he didn't have before and will therefore make UK suppliers less attractive (i.e. most costly) for him.
    that's just nonsense if you're putting together an assembly you have to do all that type of work anyway. You homologate the product and then adhere to the specification requirements. You have to go through that hassle . Indeed if hassle is your big concern what's to stop more hassle coming down the line in 2, 5 or 10 years time from the EU ? Once CE marking wasn't mandatory now it is, I don't recall the huge outcry at the time.

    your hypothetical problem is about as realistic as saying what would happen if you discovered all the engines you had shipped were made of cheese. It's possible but not very likely.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: Over past month, (supposedly a good month for Leave), there have been 23 polls. 15 have had Remain ahead, 5 Leave ahead, 3 have been ties.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Over past month, (supposedly a good month for Leave), there have been 23 polls. 15 have had Remain ahead, 5 Leave ahead, 3 have been ties.

    Except given where we were coming from all 23 should have had Remain in the lead.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    kle4 said:

    On topic, I wish sanders would quit already. He isn't going to win and the efforts of his supporters to think they have a shot still is getting a little sad. Though I suppose he's having fun.

    Sanders will stay through to the convention and try and influence the platform. His next big decision is whether he dials down the rhetoric following more defeats next Tuesday in the closed primaries of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut and Delaware. Sanders has a shot at the open contest in Rhode Island but it'll be small consolation.
    I'd agree with all that.

    Worth also remembering that the flip side of all those superdelegates is that technically, Hillary won't win a definitive majority off bound delegates alone before the convention. As such, Sanders can legitimately continue to campaign on the notional argument that he could persuade the supers to change their mind - and the real one that his continued presence will influence the debate. Which is, after all, exactly what Hillary did in 2008 in a near-identical position.
    Sanders campaign manager has said he expects to flip the Supers !! - Laughable drivel. Sanders race was done early on when he failed to capture the minority vote and Clinton built up a comfortable lead that Sanders has only managed to chip away at from time to time and then often lose again in big blue states.

    The Supers are for Clinton for two reasons - Firstly she was the front runner and likely overall winner but secondly and usually overlooked is that the Clinton's have huge hinterland in the party, supporting candidates nationwide and raising hundreds of millions of dollars over the decades. In contrast Sanders is a semi-detached figure.
  • Options
    TNS (#EUref):

    REMAIN 38 (+3)
    LEAVE 34 (-1)

    Dates 12-14th April
    N=1,198
    Tabs storage.pardot.com/66092/93040/20… #EUreferendum #VoteLeave #StrongerIn
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    runnymede said:

    tlg86 said:

    When Leave propose the future looks like Albania or Bosnia, you do have to wonder if they have joined Project Fear too...

    I thought the point that Gove was making was that there is a free trade area extending from Iceland to Turkey which included the likes of Albania and Bosnia. His point was is it realistic to suppose that such a free trade area would include such countries but not the UK?
    The reason is that the freetrade area does not encompass all things, it is also part of the application process for EU membership.

    It's also worth noting that a free trade area is not the same as a single market. It is a lot more restrictive. What Gove is proposing will effectively mean less access to European markets than UK companies have now.

    You really exaggerate the difference, as the Treasury did recently also.

    Moreover, this is a very narrow analysis. Rather a large part of the UK's international trade (over half of goods, the bulk of services trade) already occurs happily enough without the 'magic' of the EU. And this is the part that is growing fastest.

    What makes you think that the "magic" of the EU isn't contributing to the UK's international trade?

    For example, the fact that parts made in the UK must comply with EU standards and regulations means that a manufacturer based in a third country can safely import them for use in building machinery intended for export back to the EU. If the UK is no longer part of the single market, then this manufacturer cannot be sure that the parts made in the UK are compliant with EU law, thus making UK suppliers less attractive to third country manufacturers.

    In some areas the UK will regulate more, in some areas the UK will regulate less. But there are dozens of variables in calculating trade patterns. British businesses that wish to continue to follow single market regulatory standards will be able to do so by choice without obliging everyone else to follow them.

    It's just as likely third countries will buy more from us as we are able to respond more quickly to the global market in things like cancer drugs, genetic research and machine intelligence.
  • Options
    Remember! Thinking is treason! (Time spent thinking could have been spent adoring Her Gracious Majesty!) And traitors should be put to death, as they were in the Good Old Days!

    Down with reality! Hate it! Hate it!
  • Options
    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Oh boy does New York hate Cruz

    New York does not value Cruz....
    Don't think any of the 5 states voting on April 26th will much value him either and 3 are winner takes all. I think after that he will be out of sight and the only question will be if he wins outright.
    Could still come down to California.
    Both of you are undoubtedly right, Trump's ability to close this out will fall between 0 and 172 delegates in CA. It's been likely for a while.

    There will be two Trump takes most states next week, plus winner takes all in Connecticut and the rump 17 in PA
    I mean Delaware not connecticut
    Although Connecticut is 50% WTA, so given the NY result I expect Trump to take all the delegates there. Trump impressively strong in Long Island as polls suggested, also suggests Trump will sweep Long Island in the generals, first time since 88 to make NY some way competitive.
    http://nypost.com/2016/02/28/hillary-could-lose-to-trump-in-democratic-new-york/

    Interesting Sam Wang is using my neighbouring counties method to look at IN. As with Florida etc. I think NY showed closed primaries don't hurt Trump at all, that IN is open to Dem troublemakers is a concern.
    http://election.princeton.edu/2016/04/18/gop-update-pre-new-york/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Story in Figaro, stating that EU countries want the UK to stay in the EU. The figures for Germany are very striking. Also surprised Spain is so keen:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/04/19/01003-20160419ARTFIG00374-les-europeens-veulent-garder-le-royaume-uni-dans-l-ue.php

    Hardly surprising considering they all benefit.
    Not surprising that the Germans are most keen to have someone to shoulder the load. I was surprised at how keen the Spanish were relative to the Poles. Given the number of Poles working in Britain, I would have expected that to be the other way around.
    The current trend is for lots of young Spanairds to work in the UK as they have poor job prospects at home
    I think the latest numbers have reversed from Spain; as the economy is moving again, we now have net immigration to Spain again.
  • Options


    What makes you think that the "magic" of the EU isn't contributing to the UK's international trade?

    For example, the fact that parts made in the UK must comply with EU standards and regulations means that manufacturer based in a third country can safely import them for use in building machinery intended for export back to the EU. If the UK is no longer part of the single market, then this manufacturer cannot be sure that the parts made in the UK are compliant with EU law, thus making UK suppliers less attractive to third country manufacturers.

    suggest he tries installing a quality system then.

    batch traceability isn't that difficult these days.
    Whatever he does, it's extra hassle that he didn't have before and will therefore make UK suppliers less attractive (i.e. most costly) for him.
    that's just nonsense if you're putting together an assembly you have to do all that type of work anyway. You homologate the product and then adhere to the specification requirements. You have to go through that hassle . Indeed if hassle is your big concern what's to stop more hassle coming down the line in 2, 5 or 10 years time from the EU ? Once CE marking wasn't mandatory now it is, I don't recall the huge outcry at the time.

    your hypothetical problem is about as realistic as saying what would happen if you discovered all the engines you had shipped were made of cheese. It's possible but not very likely.
    Sorry, but the nonsense is coming from you. If UK-made parts are no longer guaranteed to meet EU standards, then it automatically makes the task of ensuring compliance more difficult for a customer using those parts in machinery destined for export to the EU.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016
    kle4 said:


    Indeed. Fact is, they may want us to stay but don't accept any of our continued concerns as valid, as they feel they've offered enough or even too much, whereas of the persuadable many here do not feel enough has been offered. So their desire for us to stay has no weight. If I want something but am not prepared to do things to get it, to pay the price even if can pay it, well I clearly do t want it that much.

    We are guest staying in a hotel, for which we pay a good chunk of cash which is a significant help to keeping them in business, but in return we get a good maid service, access to the business suite, and being able to talk to the other residents in the bar is useful. We are however substantially annoyed by petty fogging room rules, and door locks don't work so other guests keep wandering in without being asked. We went to the manager and asked for a better deal, if they fixed the locks, were more flexible on the room rules, and stopped trying to charge us for our neighbours window boxes, we might consider staying. The manager considered briefly, sneered and offered us a bonus packet of dry roasted peanuts every third day, if the neighbors agreed, also we could lock our doors, but only for a maximum of three hours, and only after we had six unwanted guests in our room. I want to go because the offer isn't good enough, but the wife isn't so sure because she thinks the other hotels might be booked, I suggest that the hotels in the next town were even better, but she is scared the car might run out of petrol on the way. Recently the manager has been knocking on the door saying we need to stay or his hotel will go bust, but won't even consider a second packet of peanuts, never mind getting the door lock fixed, and frankly the rules aren't up for negotiation..


This discussion has been closed.