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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The PM’s attack on Khan, EURef polling & betting, and the l

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited April 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The PM’s attack on Khan, EURef polling & betting, and the latest on WH2016 – the latest PB/Polling Matters TV Show

This week we welcomed back the Oxford Academic and Labour peer, Lord Stewart Wood, to look at what’s been going on in the big political stories on both sided of the Atlantic.

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited April 2016
    Another interesting show

    Note this show was filmed before the YouGov poll was published.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    edited April 2016
    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Khan and Goldsmith are both awful, I feel truly sorry for Londoners.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited April 2016
    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron has a weakness for being uber political over statesmanlike. There are lots of occasions where he has fallen short of what you might expect from a PM.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,256
    edited April 2016

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron has a weakness for being uber political over statesmanlike. Lots of occasions throughout his premiership where he has fallen short of what you hope for from a PM.


    He normally contracts out his brutal assaults, for example Michael Fallon on Ed Miliband
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    Goldsmith is great, it is just he doesn't pass the banter with a cabby test that Bojo does.

    I see Obama is set to interfere in our internal political matters again. Always wondered, given his opinions on Europe set out in his book Mein Kampf Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance, whether he sees the current deluge of immigrants following his interventions in Syria and Libya as failing or a success? Perhaps one of his fanboys on here can tell me.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Galloway doesn't appear to be a thing anymore.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/london-mayoral-election-zac-goldsmith-has-mountain-to-climb-as-sadiq-khan-stretches-poll-lead-a3230406.html

    "Respect’s George Galloway is hardly troubling the scorer."
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Re-post

    "back in 2003, the Treasury stated that UK trade could increase by 50 per cent over the next 30 years if we joined the euro"
    That is a useful bullet if LEAVE are up to using it.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    For the benefit of readers here is a link to that old Treasury study on EMU and UK trade.

    It's actually a much more balanced piece of work than the recent assessment, with the estimates of trade gains between 5% and 50%.

    That range in turn comes from the Treasury's assessment of a range of academic studies, some of which have even more extreme numbers (see the table on p.58 where EMU related trade gains of up to 200% (!!!) are posited).

    Needless to say, nothing remotely like that has actually happened in the actual EMU countries in the last 15 years.

    Importantly, the methodology used to generate those very big numbers is the one the Treasury has used in its recent exercise on the EU.

    So this again shows how cynical the recent Treasury exercise was - relying on a dubious methodology which they knew perfectly well would produce 'big' (but worthless) numbers.


    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20080107205404/http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/adsuf03_456.pdf
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    That's not going to be possible once we have voted to remain. Unless it is very, very close (less than 1% in it) then the EU will carry on as normal and pay lip service to the deal for a while then just ignore it once everyone has forgotten about it but the core 35-40% of sceptics in this country.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Peter Oborne,a lifelong Tory,will be voting for Sadiq Khan."Goldsmith's campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen as a political reporter." - See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/london-mayor-race-conservatives-game-religious-and-racial-divisions-538083247#sthash.vzG9bSxL.dpuf
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron has a weakness for being uber political over statesmanlike. Lots of occasions throughout his premiership where he has fallen short of what you hope for from a PM.


    He normally contracts out his brutal assaults, for example Michael Fallon on Ed Miliband
    His use of outriders a very effective technique, but quite cynical to observers like us. I do wonder if Fallon good to the top job.

    What really stuck in my craw was his response to the ScotRef and the EU.

    In Scotref, the country was crying out for someone to bring us together. Instead he talked about EV4EL, which was party political and deliberately provocative.

    The reason that the EU ref campaign has been so odd, is that it was purely a tactical device to disarm UKIP in GE2015.

    His legacy is going to be quite poor. Our politics is in a far worse state than when he started.

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    Labour could well be heading for an overall majority on the Assembly, if this poll is correct, although I suspect they'll fall short in reality.

    The Assembly vote is Lab. 45%, Con 29%, UKIP 9%, Lib Dem 8%, Green 7%.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Mr. NorthWales, the lesson the EU will take is not that they need to help the British, but that either a referendum must not be held again (Labour won't hold on and the next Conservative leader, seeing what it's doing to this government, would be reluctant) or that propaganda needs improving.
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    MaxPB said:

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    That's not going to be possible once we have voted to remain. Unless it is very, very close (less than 1% in it) then the EU will carry on as normal and pay lip service to the deal for a while then just ignore it once everyone has forgotten about it but the core 35-40% of sceptics in this country.
    I am not at all sure about that but I do agree that the position HMG takes after the vote will be important as it must adopt a eurosceptic attitude
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron has a weakness for being uber political over statesmanlike. Lots of occasions throughout his premiership where he has fallen short of what you hope for from a PM.


    He normally contracts out his brutal assaults, for example Michael Fallon on Ed Miliband
    Yes, I think Zac doesn't have enough friends in the Cabinet to get any favours. A similar attack by Theresa May would have been devastating.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    LondonBob said:


    the current deluge of immigrants following his interventions in Syria

    I think you're confused. It's Putin that's intervened in Syria.....
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    Simply not going to happen I'm afraid. Nor is it logical. The status quo is not on offer. It never has been. A Remain vote is a vote for the EU to continue with integration and there will be nothing we can do to stop that. No matter how Eurosceptic a post vote government might be we will have lost the one possible card we could use against the EU.

    If Remain is the result you and many other reluctant Remainers are going to be extremely disappointed within a few years.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797

    Peter Oborne,a lifelong Tory,will be voting for Sadiq Khan."Goldsmith's campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen as a political reporter." - See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/london-mayor-race-conservatives-game-religious-and-racial-divisions-538083247#sthash.vzG9bSxL.dpuf

    To be fair Oborne isn't a Tory and is extreme with all of his opinion. Seems to always be in a highly emotional state...
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    LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467
    edited April 2016
    I see from various comments that the concern is that should we leave the EU that Britain might become, God forbid, more inward looking and isolationist. So essentially the concern is we might not be the cannon fodder and paymasters of what ever conflict the likes of Anne Applebaum want us to get involved with next. Remain should be more honest about their concerns.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936
    edited April 2016
    By the way. Came to the last thread very late.

    Just wanted to say that yet again it was an excellent contribution from Roger. He has the ability in his articles to be both informative and scrupulously neutral. A pleasure to read even if uncomfortable for those of us backing Leave.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Jonathan

    'His legacy is going to be quite poor. Our politics is in a far worse state than when he started.'


    But we hasn't left a million people dead in Iraq or the economy on the brink of collapse.
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    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron has a weakness for being uber political over statesmanlike. Lots of occasions throughout his premiership where he has fallen short of what you hope for from a PM.


    He normally contracts out his brutal assaults, for example Michael Fallon on Ed Miliband
    Yes, I think Zac doesn't have enough friends in the Cabinet to get any favours. A similar attack by Theresa May would have been devastating.
    It might be more that they felt it would have more impact coming from nice guy Cameron.

    The reaction of Labour MPs would back that that up.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited April 2016

    Peter Oborne,a lifelong Tory,will be voting for Sadiq Khan."Goldsmith's campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen as a political reporter." - See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/london-mayor-race-conservatives-game-religious-and-racial-divisions-538083247#sthash.vzG9bSxL.dpuf

    Edit: deleted
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    GIN1138 said:

    Peter Oborne,a lifelong Tory,will be voting for Sadiq Khan."Goldsmith's campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen as a political reporter." - See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/london-mayor-race-conservatives-game-religious-and-racial-divisions-538083247#sthash.vzG9bSxL.dpuf

    To be fair Oborne isn't a Tory and is extreme with all of his opinion. Seems to always be in a highly emotional state...
    GIN1138 said:

    Peter Oborne,a lifelong Tory,will be voting for Sadiq Khan."Goldsmith's campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen as a political reporter." - See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/london-mayor-race-conservatives-game-religious-and-racial-divisions-538083247#sthash.vzG9bSxL.dpuf

    To be fair Oborne isn't a Tory and is extreme with all of his opinion. Seems to always be in a highly emotional state...
    I was honestly trying to remember if he ever was. Maybe back in Hague's time?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    john_zims said:

    @Jonathan

    'His legacy is going to be quite poor. Our politics is in a far worse state than when he started.'


    But we hasn't left a million people dead in Iraq or the economy on the brink of collapse.

    There's time yet... ;)
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    john_zims said:

    @Jonathan

    'His legacy is going to be quite poor. Our politics is in a far worse state than when he started.'


    But we hasn't left a million people dead in Iraq or the economy on the brink of collapse.

    Have you missed how much HMG is borrowing?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Didn't see PMQs. What, precisely, did Cameron say about Khan?
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    It is a familiar story: a senior Labour figure in a heated election is denounced for sharing platforms with extremists. Amid cries of foul play, he is accused of “legitimising” vile individuals who seek to divide society, and of sending “wrong signals”.

    Did you assume I was describing this week’s Tory attack on Sadiq Khan for having repeatedly attended events alongside people who made repulsive anti-Semitic or homophobic comments, or are linked to terrorist sympathisers?

    Wrong. The quotes are from Labour’s former shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper, speaking last August about her party leader Jeremy Corbyn’s almost identical record of sharing platforms with Islamist extremists such as Raed Salah, the so-called “blood libel cleric”.

    “We have a responsibility not to give them legitimacy” warned Ms Cooper.

    Curiously, she has suddenly changed her tune now that her friend Mr Khan is coming under the same criticism of his own record from Tory mayoral rival Zac Goldsmith and David Cameron.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/why-sadiq-khan-cannot-escape-questions-about-extremists-a3230486.html
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Jason said:

    Khan and Goldsmith are both awful, I feel truly sorry for Londoners.

    Both are mediocre, dull and charisma free zones, – Londoners will do just fine with either.
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    Fair to say The Standard are on Team Zac
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Yup. Jowell would be so much better.
    Jason said:

    Khan and Goldsmith are both awful, I feel truly sorry for Londoners.

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2016
    I wonder whether Labour were wise to make such a big thing of Cameron's comments on Sadiq Khan? It's always difficult in cases like this to judge whether to let the attack pass with only a mild rebuttal, or respond with all guns blazing, as Labour have in this case. The risk of the latter, obviously, is that it draws further attention to the issue. The risk of the former is that it could mean that it looks as though you are implicitly accepting at least some of the attack.

    In this particular case, I think it was an error for Labour to cry 'Racist!', as it gave Zac an opportunity (which he used very well) to respond that it's not racist to be concerned about extremism. But responding vigorously to the extremist-link attack was probably sensible on Labour's part.

    It probably doesn't matter much anyway. PBers will be collecting their 33/1s, I think.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    FPT
    MaxPB said:



    Until the Tories hammer private landlords in London and increase home ownership London is going to be a tough ask. There is a lot of anger at landlords and the message that the government are taking them on just isn't cutting through, it would take private rent controls within the M25 for any message to get through.

    They just need to cap Housing Benefit rates in London to UK rent levels, breaking the London market link.

    It would save billions but be met with howls of 'social cleansing' by Corbyn and co.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    He's a clickbait attention seeker - he doesn't believe anything he writes. No serious journalist would run from port to starboard and back every other column.
    GIN1138 said:

    Peter Oborne,a lifelong Tory,will be voting for Sadiq Khan."Goldsmith's campaign for mayor has become the most repulsive I have ever seen as a political reporter." - See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/london-mayor-race-conservatives-game-religious-and-racial-divisions-538083247#sthash.vzG9bSxL.dpuf

    To be fair Oborne isn't a Tory and is extreme with all of his opinion. Seems to always be in a highly emotional state...
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Fair to say The Standard are on Team Zac

    Not strongly, though. They've run some quite pro-Sadiq articles, and some not very flattering articles on Zac.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron has a weakness for being uber political over statesmanlike. Lots of occasions throughout his premiership where he has fallen short of what you hope for from a PM.


    He normally contracts out his brutal assaults, for example Michael Fallon on Ed Miliband
    Yes, I think Zac doesn't have enough friends in the Cabinet to get any favours. A similar attack by Theresa May would have been devastating.
    It might be more that they felt it would have more impact coming from nice guy Cameron.

    The reaction of Labour MPs would back that that up.
    Possibly, but one would think Dave has opened enough fronts with the EU campaign that he may want to stay out of this one, especially as he needs Labour support to secure a remain vote. Either way, It may be too little, too late. I don't think it will be as bad as the polls are saying and I think Khan will be a poor mayor, but I also don't think Zac would be a good mayor. It's sad that in a city as dynamic as London these two are the best we could come up with. :/
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    Afternoon all ;

    Haven't seen the London Mayoral poll detail but very poor for Goldsmith if true. He has the Standard behind him but not much else.

    It's very difficult to win a majority on the GLA under the voting system. The question is how many constituencies Labour will pick up from the Conservatives.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,906

    I wonder whether Labour were wise to make such a big thing of Cameron's comments on Sadiq Khan? It's always difficult in cases like this to judge whether to let the attack pass with only a mild rebuttal, or respond with all guns blazing, as Labour have in this case. The risk of the latter, obviously, is that it draws further attention to the issue. The risk of the former is that it could mean that it looks as though you are implicitly accepting at least some of the attack.

    In this particular case, I think it was an error for Labour to cry 'Racist!', as it gave Zac an opportunity (which he used very well) to respond that it's not racist to be concerned about extremism. But responding vigorously to the extremist-link attack was probably sensible.

    It probably doesn't matter much anyway. PBers will be collecting their 33/1s, I think.

    The whole mayoral contest has been turned into a referendum on whether you think Khan hangs out with his terrorist mates at the local mosque, rather than anything of any policy substance.

    "Zac stands up for the bengali/chinese/gujurati etc etc community. Oh and Sadiq will tax your jewellery". A poor show, and not one that was ever really going to play well in soft left London.

    I won't be displeased when Sadiq wins (I'm reasonably even on the betting)
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179

    Yup. Jowell would be so much better.

    Jason said:

    Khan and Goldsmith are both awful, I feel truly sorry for Londoners.

    I agree.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,841
    The ignorance of the Standard. Apparently "second preferences will be decisive" - not really if one candidate leads by a dozen points or more.

    With the Second Preferences Khan wins 60-40. Goldsmith has barely broken out of the Conservative suburban heartland on these numbers.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    Osborne misses it again. So much for 2030.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/deficit-figures-an-embarrassment-for-george-osborne-as-he-misses/
    The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which produces official forecasts for the Government, updated its forecasts for the deficit only last month.

    Revealing the OBR's forecast at the Budget in March, the Chancellor announced that the Government expected to borrow £72.2bn in the fiscal year - a projection £1.8bn wide of the mark.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Leavers are accused of conspiracies, but I think the notion leave's price in the markets is being supported by some Dr evil style billionaire, doubtless resident in a tax haven, is I think one of the more far fetched things I have read recently.
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    taffys said:

    Leavers are accused of conspiracies, but I think the notion leave's price in the markets is being supported by some Dr evil style billionaire, doubtless resident in a tax haven, is I think one of the more far fetched things I have read recently.

    I think you're forgetting your own contribution a few weeks ago.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Osborne misses it again. So much for 2030.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/deficit-figures-an-embarrassment-for-george-osborne-as-he-misses/

    The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which produces official forecasts for the Government, updated its forecasts for the deficit only last month.

    Revealing the OBR's forecast at the Budget in March, the Chancellor announced that the Government expected to borrow £72.2bn in the fiscal year - a projection £1.8bn wide of the mark.

    Osborne needs all the political capital he can get right now.

    Good job he hasn't been going around p-ing off his natural supporters.

    Oh, wait.

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    stodge said:

    The ignorance of the Standard. Apparently "second preferences will be decisive" - not really if one candidate leads by a dozen points or more.

    With the Second Preferences Khan wins 60-40. Goldsmith has barely broken out of the Conservative suburban heartland on these numbers.

    UKIP's second preferences split 84/16% for Goldsmith, but almost everyone else is giving their second preference to Khan.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited April 2016

    Osborne needs all the political capital he can get right now.

    Good job he hasn't been going around p-ing off his natural supporters.

    Oh, wait.


    Tories polling marginally higher than they did in 2015 in some recent polls.

    Just saying.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    For those of you who did well at Cheltenham...:Ladbrooks didn't have a good week.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36099387

    Seems to be a spate of mergers amongst the Bookmakers.
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    You're deluded

    Even if it's 50.1% Remain, the 49.9% will be utterly ignored by Brussels and the Europeans Project will push ahead full tilt with the UK deemed to have fully signed up to it.

    Eurocrats are not big on listening to the people...
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    taffys said:

    Leavers are accused of conspiracies, but I think the notion leave's price in the markets is being supported by some Dr evil style billionaire, doubtless resident in a tax haven, is I think one of the more far fetched things I have read recently.

    You have tin-foil hat conspiracy theories
    I have justifiable suspicions

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Mr. Eagles, that's the Corbyn Effect.

    And even if you think that guarantees a 2020 blue win, then complacency and arrogance will still hollow out the party and make the likelihood of 2025 resembling 1997 all the higher.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    I want him gone - I resisted the Osbrowne moniker for a long time, now I think it's more than appropriate. Bar jobs, he's simply not dealing with the elephant in the room, and keeps effing up Budgets et al by being far too political.

    Osborne misses it again. So much for 2030.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/deficit-figures-an-embarrassment-for-george-osborne-as-he-misses/

    The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which produces official forecasts for the Government, updated its forecasts for the deficit only last month.

    Revealing the OBR's forecast at the Budget in March, the Chancellor announced that the Government expected to borrow £72.2bn in the fiscal year - a projection £1.8bn wide of the mark.



    Osborne needs all the political capital he can get right now.

    Good job he hasn't been going around p-ing off his natural supporters.

    Oh, wait.

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    Can people stop adding Blockquotes in their posts. It buggers up the replies and makes posts unreadable. Ta
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    You're deluded

    Even if it's 50.1% Remain, the 49.9% will be utterly ignored by Brussels and the Europeans Project will push ahead full tilt with the UK deemed to have fully signed up to it.

    Eurocrats are not big on listening to the people...
    Brussels will either see 'Leave' or 'Remain'. The numbers are an irrelevance.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Mr. 1983,
    "You have tin-foil hat conspiracy theories
    I have justifiable suspicions"

    He is a resident of an insane asylum :p
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    watford30 said:

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    You're deluded

    Even if it's 50.1% Remain, the 49.9% will be utterly ignored by Brussels and the Europeans Project will push ahead full tilt with the UK deemed to have fully signed up to it.

    Eurocrats are not big on listening to the people...
    Brussels will either see 'Leave' or 'Remain'. The numbers are an irrelevance.
    Er, yes, that's what I said ...
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Osborne misses it again. So much for 2030.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/deficit-figures-an-embarrassment-for-george-osborne-as-he-misses/

    The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which produces official forecasts for the Government, updated its forecasts for the deficit only last month.

    Revealing the OBR's forecast at the Budget in March, the Chancellor announced that the Government expected to borrow £72.2bn in the fiscal year - a projection £1.8bn wide of the mark.
    I don't remember Plato being so anti-Osborne before. Osborne has always been missing his targets ever since he started issuing them. It was because of her blue-tinted spectacles that she failed to see this failure before.

    This is what was in the June 2010 budget:
    ---------------
    Underlying current budget deficit should be "in balance" by 2015/16.

    Public sector net borrowing will be £149bn this year, £116bn next year, £89bn in 2012-13 and £60bn in 2013-14.

    By 2014-15 borrowing to reach £37bn, falling to £20bn in 2015-16.
    -------------------

    What's the borrowing in 2015-16 ? £72.2 bn.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357
    FPT

    Thanks for this Roger. If true, I'm astonished that Leave haven't appointed a central advertiser.

    And they've already got their logo, and their slogan, and the campaign is rapidly progressing. Who does those things without getting a professional in? It's the height of arrogance apart from anything else.

    They need to hire these people: http://www.ries.com/

    And once a strategy is established, they need in-house people who understand it to run it day to day. I think they need a former or current newspaper man (Patrick O'Flynn?), and someone with a bit of a cheeky headline-grabbing instinct. Could they have sent a courier to No. 11 Downing Street with a pocket calculator and a crystal ball addressed to George Osborne after the 'study' was released? The best and most effective responses to it were those that ridiculed it.

    It's unacceptable that one of the most prominent people in Leave gives a keynote speech, and the only take-away from it is 'he made a nice speech'.

    They also, and I have said this from the beginning, need to unite the campaigns under a single banner (perhaps keeping GO as a seperate 'brand' but supporting them), and have a single campaign HQ. At the moment their are talents, experience, and resources being wasted, and soundings off from various people being used to tarr everyone. And Vote Leave have been as guilty as Leave.EU on this.

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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/723110004203483136

    Zac & Khan why can't they both lose? The positive aspect of this campaign is that Galloway is sinking almost without trace.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited April 2016

    Mr. Eagles, that's the Corbyn Effect.

    And even if you think that guarantees a 2020 blue win, then complacency and arrogance will still hollow out the party and make the likelihood of 2025 resembling 1997 all the higher.

    Or it might be the voters like Cameron and Osborne's Pro-EU approach, as we can see in the recent EURef polling.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: EXCL Ex-intelligence chief brands Brexiteers "paranoid conspiracy theorists" https://t.co/hETE29l3Ck https://t.co/nkOW7SJQs4
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    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/723110004203483136

    Zac & Khan why can't they both lose? The positive aspect of this campaign is that Galloway is sinking almost without trace.

    Is such a shame Winston McKenzie didn't make it on to the ballot apper
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Mr. 1983,
    "You have tin-foil hat conspiracy theories
    I have justifiable suspicions"

    He is a resident of an insane asylum :p

    Watching the remainers wail about the markets today reminds me of a certain Shakespearian tragic character.

    All the polls showed that Birnam wood would NEVER come to Dunsinane, and yet....
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited April 2016
    'The Government judges that what the UK gets back in opportunities, job creation and economic security from EU membership far outweighs the cost.'

    But, in a ComRes poll for the Mail and ITV News, voters rejected the idea that the EU is good value for money. Some 56 per cent think that Britain's net contribution is bad value for money. Less than a third think it is good value for money. For Tory supporters, the difference is even more stark – 63 per cent to 27 per cent.

    If the money were not spent on the EU, an overwhelmingly majority of the public – 57 per cent - would most like to see the money spent on healthcare and the NHS.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3550906/Most-voters-say-Britain-doesn-t-value-money-EU-Majority-say-prefer-8-5bn-spent-NHS.html#ixzz46ScM0wKu
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,717
    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    There are many reasons they might need a kicking. Making political attacks at PMQs is sure as hell not one of them, nor is it unusual.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I haven't had that HMG Remain booklet either - we've PCC elections here shortly, is that the reason for the delay?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800
    edited April 2016

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    Labour would be comfortably ahead now, if they had an adequate leader. Cameron's and Osborne's ratings are not good, right now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,906
    edited April 2016
    Hmm I sent off for a postal vote last week - nothing arrived yet...
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    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm I sent off for a postal vote last week - nothing arrived yet...

    I hope you ticked the box that said you want postal votes until further notice?
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    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    I'm taking nothing for granted.

    Just remember all those voters Cameron pissed off by introducing same sex marriage, ultimately helped him win over more net voters
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,906
    edited April 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm I sent off for a postal vote last week - nothing arrived yet...

    I hope you ticked the box that said you want postal votes until further notice?
    I did.
    Vote early and vote often.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron merely stated the truth. To appear on a platform with an extremist sympathiser may be accidental but to do it nine times appears to denote support.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited April 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm I sent off for a postal vote last week - nothing arrived yet...

    I hope you ticked the box that said you want postal votes until further notice?
    I did.
    Vote early and vote often.
    Good man. I'm struggling to remember the last time I voted in person.

    Edit: I reckon it was the 2012 Manchester Central by election
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    perdix said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron merely stated the truth. To appear on a platform with an extremist sympathiser may be accidental but to do it nine times appears to denote support.

    I can't see anything wrong with what Cameron said, and I am no fan of his.

    I'm afraid this is the way politics is going though i.e. increasingly on ethnic/cultural lines. If Khan wins I wonder if the current London government arrangements will survive.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,297
    perdix said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron merely stated the truth. To appear on a platform with an extremist sympathiser may be accidental but to do it nine times appears to denote support.

    The way the Leavers are feeling at the moment, bin Laden would get more sympathy than Cameron or Osborne if he came out for Brexit.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    Labour would be comfortably ahead now, if they had an adequate leader. Cameron's and Osborne's ratings are not good, right now.
    This is simply not true , historically speaking . The government has only been in power 1 year . People have gone from a year ago giving a smile , wink and nod to Conservative canvassers , to giving a shifty , eye voiding look and sometimes a scowl . This time next year it will have moved on to glaring looks , outright hostility and nasty comments , Then Labour should be comfortably ahead
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179

    I haven't had that HMG Remain booklet either - we've PCC elections here shortly, is that the reason for the delay?

    Dunno. As I posted this morning, I've not had mine and yet people I know a mile or two away have had there's.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,800

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    Labour would be comfortably ahead now, if they had an adequate leader. Cameron's and Osborne's ratings are not good, right now.
    This is simply not true , historically speaking . The government has only been in power 1 year . People have gone from a year ago giving a smile , wink and nod to Conservative canvassers , to giving a shifty , eye voiding look and sometimes a scowl . This time next year it will have moved on to glaring looks , outright hostility and nasty comments , Then Labour should be comfortably ahead
    The government has had a torrid time, over the past few months. One would expect the Opposition to be able to take advantage of this.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Given
    perdix said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Cameron's attack on Khan demeaned his office. IMO.

    Cameron and Osborne are heading for one heck of a fall. Time to give them both a kicking.

    Cameron merely stated the truth. To appear on a platform with an extremist sympathiser may be accidental but to do it nine times appears to denote support.

    Given the apparent failure of Cameron's intervention, one does wonder about the success of any similar attacks on Corbyn and McDonnell in a General Election. The Tories would appear to be pinning a lot on this tactic.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    FPT: Mr. NorthWales, if we vote to Remain then that'll be seen by Brussels as the green light for ever more integration. They know we won't have another vote for a long time.

    If Cameron had actually done what he said he would and secured a decent deal, with the threat of recommending we Leave if he didn't get it, then we'd be in a far better position.

    That is a logical conclusion if we return to Brussels and the status quo. But my point is that the referendum will change perceptions throughout Europe as it is expected that nearly 50% of the UK are eurosceptic. There will be a need for HMG to fire a warning shot to Brussels that it is not business as usual and HMG will intensify it's drive for democratic reform from within
    Simply not going to happen I'm afraid. Nor is it logical. The status quo is not on offer. It never has been. A Remain vote is a vote for the EU to continue with integration and there will be nothing we can do to stop that. No matter how Eurosceptic a post vote government might be we will have lost the one possible card we could use against the EU.

    If Remain is the result you and many other reluctant Remainers are going to be extremely disappointed within a few years.
    Those who vote Remain should be under no illusions.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709
    Government prepared to part nationalise Tata steel plant?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36102835
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,593

    Government prepared to part nationalise Tata steel plant?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36102835

    Bloody socialists!
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    Government prepared to part nationalise Tata steel plant?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36102835

    Result for Tata. Corks popping in Mumbai.

    A cynic might be forgiven for thinking there's a Referendum, and Local Elections coming up. Perhaps The Treasury could refer to this as 'Operation Byers'.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    Labour would be comfortably ahead now, if they had an adequate leader. Cameron's and Osborne's ratings are not good, right now.
    This is simply not true , historically speaking . The government has only been in power 1 year . People have gone from a year ago giving a smile , wink and nod to Conservative canvassers , to giving a shifty , eye voiding look and sometimes a scowl . This time next year it will have moved on to glaring looks , outright hostility and nasty comments , Then Labour should be comfortably ahead
    The government has had a torrid time, over the past few months. One would expect the Opposition to be able to take advantage of this.
    Look at the VI figures for 1992-1997 for example , it was not until late 1993 that the polls moved substantially in Labours favour . Currently the government has had a torrid time , the floaters who elected them last year are beginning to realise they were duped and have moved away from supporting the government they voted for but need another 6 months or so before they start actively voting for another party .
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    I'm taking nothing for granted.

    Just remember all those voters Cameron pissed off by introducing same sex marriage, ultimately helped him win over more net voters
    What about party members?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2016

    Government prepared to part nationalise Tata steel plant?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36102835

    The government appear to want to out do the infamous KLF "art project" where they set a million quid on fire.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    Osborne misses it again. So much for 2030.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/deficit-figures-an-embarrassment-for-george-osborne-as-he-misses/

    The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which produces official forecasts for the Government, updated its forecasts for the deficit only last month.

    Revealing the OBR's forecast at the Budget in March, the Chancellor announced that the Government expected to borrow £72.2bn in the fiscal year - a projection £1.8bn wide of the mark.
    That article is so economically illiterate it is hard to know where to start.
    Maybe with the fact these were OBR numbers not Osborne's.
    Or that the difference is a rounding error.
    Or that it is very likely that the figure will be revised back below the target in due course anyway.
    Or that the budget forecast (also OBR but at least announced by Osborne) was £73.5bn.

    I completely get that the way Osborne's behaving in relation to the referendum is ticking some Conservative supporters off. But rubbishing what is a very good economic record to try and reduce the weight of his contribution in that debate is stupid. In the last year we have tax revenues up over 4%, we have government spending up all of 0.2% and we have a fall in the deficit of £17.7 bn.

    Just rejoice at that news, as one Tory once said.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179

    Government prepared to part nationalise Tata steel plant?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36102835

    The government appear to want to out do the infamous KLF "art project" where they set a million quid on fire.
    Something has to fuel the steel furnace, as we don't dig our own coal anymore.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2016
    Can somebody point me in the direction of the TNS poll that has Remain 4 ahead please?

    Can't find the datasets and am interested to see whether they have moved from their standard fortnightly polling cycle.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited April 2016

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    I'm taking nothing for granted.

    Just remember all those voters Cameron pissed off by introducing same sex marriage, ultimately helped him win over more net voters
    What about party members?
    Party members are important. They are broadly frustrated not by the PM but the decision of some to re-enact the 90s.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,357

    Government prepared to part nationalise Tata steel plant?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36102835

    The government appear to want to out do the infamous KLF "art project" where they set a million quid on fire.
    Don't they already do that? It's called 'The International Aid budget' isn't it?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    I'm taking nothing for granted.

    Just remember all those voters Cameron pissed off by introducing same sex marriage, ultimately helped him win over more net voters
    What about party members?
    Party members are important. They are broadly frustrated not by the PM but the decision of some to re-enact the 90s.
    Sidestepping the question - let me help you out: party membership dropped significantly during the Gay Marriage saga, and numbers have not recovered.

    That wasn't because Tory members are homophobes. It's because they were treated with insufficient respect, and not a few in CCHQ and elsewhere wanted to triangulate the party brand at their expense, throwing in a few insults along the way.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016

    Mr. Eagles, a narrow lead is not what most people expected. Cameron and Osborne are reaping tomorrow's harvest to claim a feast today, but there'll be a Conservative famine tomorrow*.

    Take people for granted and they either don't turn out or move to other groups (cf Mr. Fear et al).

    *(Probably 2025, assuming Labour stops being mad when it comes to leaders).

    I'm taking nothing for granted.

    Just remember all those voters Cameron pissed off by introducing same sex marriage, ultimately helped him win over more net voters
    What about party members?
    They are broadly frustrated not by the PM but the decision of some to re-enact the 90s.
    If that's the view of party managers, they're seriously out of touch. Or deluding themselves.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    @Charles - thank you. Replied.
This discussion has been closed.