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SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited April 2016 in General

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  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited April 2016
    First?

    [austin powers mode] Yeah Baby! [/austin powers mode]

    There's a parallel between Trump and Corbyn, with Trump enthusing a sub-set of voters who are a million miles away from the electorate as a whole. That said, Mrs Clinton's large wardrobe full of skeletons could see her current polling lead ebb away over the next 6 months.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Cruz saw his numbers way down in Indiana and tried the Kasich thing, it didn't work.
    He then tried the Fiorina thing, it didn't work:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/28/politics/ted-cruz-carly-fiorina-indiana-plan/index.html

    "Cruz allies and people close to the campaign describe a budding sense of gloom, with internal polls diving as Trump mounted even stronger than expected showings in his native northeast. In Indiana, which Cruz backers once believed they were favored to win after his strong defeat of Trump in Wisconsin, Cruz's numbers have fallen precipitously: Once leading, Cruz now trails in the state by eight to 10 points, according to a person who has seen the numbers, with Trump over the 40% mark. Cruz's campaign did not respond when asked about those figures."

    Now he's trying with Mike Pence, literally his last card.

    Pence could just do it for Cruz, but the chances are not high when he is 10 points behind.
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    New Indiana poll, from ARG:

    Trump 41
    Cruz 32
    Kasich 21

    Rich LowryVerified account ‏@RichLowry 11m11 minutes ago
    ARG Indiana poll:On the Republican side, Donald Trump leads Ted Cruz 41% to 32%, with 21% for John Kasich.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    Follow TheWhiteRabbit.

    Great post.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Speedy said:

    New Indiana poll, from ARG:

    Trump 41
    Cruz 32
    Kasich 21

    Rich LowryVerified account ‏@RichLowry 11m11 minutes ago
    ARG Indiana poll:On the Republican side, Donald Trump leads Ted Cruz 41% to 32%, with 21% for John Kasich.

    With early voting these are effectively partial exit polls too.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Follow TheWhiteRabbit.

    Great post.

    Six impossible things before breakfast for Ted Cruz.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    That announcement the other day with his running mate was bizzare.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Thanks for this, Mr. Rabbit.

    Hmm. I think I'd prefer Trump to get it over Cruz.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Great, clearly-written article.

    Cruz seems to have done himself harm with his attempted stitch-up with Kasich, and Carly doesn't seem to bring him much. Trump might not quite be unstoppable yet, but he's close to unstoppable.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    Thanks for this, Mr. Rabbit.

    Hmm. I think I'd prefer Trump to get it over Cruz.

    Anyone but Cruz frankly.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    As others have said, a really clearsighted, clearly written article. Many thanks.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    edited April 2016
    FPT.Alanbrooke said:
    » show previous quotes
    you forgot the bit about Britain falling in to the sea, four horsemen and the asteroid strike.

    Plague of frogs?

    There was guy on ITV last night.... Martyn Lewis, IIRC ..... who was making the very sensible point that none of the prophesised catastophes were in fact at all likely. Nor were the utopian situations envisaged by both sides. Making ones choice on which was to vote was a question of balance. There would be tendencies towards one situation or another and how one voted .... I got the impression how he was going to vote ..... would depend on how he saw the seesaw tipping as the debate went on. Might well not be a lot either way.

    Bit like the result itself I suspect.


    And on topic, I THINK I’d prefer Trump to Cruz.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited April 2016
    Taking Cruz + Kasich + Trump ~= 100%... (Which alot of polls don't do, but is a must I think)

    Adding all the polls together gives Trump 43%, Cruz 36%.

    That is also the same as Huffpost Pollsters "trend values".

    Interestingly when you exclude Don't knows, Trump hasn't polled below 41% and Cruz has not gone over 39% in any poll.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Indiana - Clout Research

    Trump 37 .. Cruz 35 .. Kasich 16

    http://cloutpolitical.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/31/2016/04/IN-GOP-PRIMARY-POLL-TOPLINE-REPORT-4-28-2016.pdf

    Note - Sample 432
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good afternoon.

    Indiana looks like another stepping stone on Trumps path to the nomination and eventual power.

    Many GOP elites are now coming round to, if not actually endorsing Trump, looking more kindly in him now. Wereas those same elites can't stomach Cruz at all.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    I have a new programme idea..."history with Ken"...perhaps on press tv. Where each week acclaimed amateur historian ken "hug Hitler" livingstone gives us his take on great moments in history.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Winning Indiana is certainly neccessary for Cruz.

    But it is a country mile from sufficient to win him the nomination.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    This is a fascinating article on American economic insecurity:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    JackW said:
    It is a fact that Trump is now outpolling the polls by 10%-20% and perhaps more.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    FPT;
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's odd how this hasn't been in the news in this country:

    "How Berlin’s Futuristic Airport Became a $6 Billion Embarrassment"

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berlin-s-futuristic-airport-became-a-6-billion-embarrassment

    I'm not sure the Holyrood overspend was much of a story in Germany
    Yes but how about this as a solution when the fire system didn't work:

    "In March 2012 the group submitted its stopgap: Eight hundred low-paid workers armed with cell phones would take up positions throughout the terminal. If anyone smelled smoke or saw a fire, he would alert the airport fire station and direct passengers toward the exits."
    I'm reading the story now; it's hilarious.
    It is entertaining, but the journalist has woven too much bullshit into the article. You can't skewer the project for being economically unnecessary - and also blame delays in its completion for holding back growth.

    "Berlin Brandenburg airport was at best an economically unnecessary symbol of unity and growth."

    and then...

    "the airport should begin operations in 2017. Berliners are trying to remain patient as tourism is booming and growth is limited by a lack of flights."

    No wonder Bloomberg doesn't allow comments.

    B-
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    Very modest of you not to remind us that you first spotted the value in Trump winning the GOP nomination on the first ballot when PP were offering 1.50 .... with a prompt from Pulpstar yesterday I got on at 1.40. Thanks for that.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    MikeK said:

    JackW said:
    It is a fact that Trump is now outpolling the polls by 10%-20% and perhaps more.
    Where ??
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a fascinating article on American economic insecurity:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

    Some years ago I talked to a debt counsellor in what appeared then, and appears now to be a reasonably prosperous C1 area in SE England. The counsellor told me that she was regularly faced with young women whose marriages had crumbled under the strain of debt and who possessed nothing; even their clothes were on unpaid credit cards.
    There a lot of people in UK who in the position described in the article.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    What exactly is Hilary's Women problem? Hilary is 17 point move liked by women over men, Trump is 25 points less liked.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/190403/seven-women-unfavorable-opinion-trump.aspx
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Pulpstar said:

    MikeK said:

    JackW said:
    It is a fact that Trump is now outpolling the polls by 10%-20% and perhaps more.
    Where ??
    Check last weeks primary results for Trump, as against the polling forecasts.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    MikeK said:

    JackW said:
    It is a fact that Trump is now outpolling the polls by 10%-20% and perhaps more.
    Some of the recent GOP polling has been quite entertaining. Moving forward it's worth noting the 538 ratings on the accuracy of the pollsters.

    Also if you have the time study the details - what US pollsters call "crosstabs", the demographic breakdown is crucial to assessing the baseline for the poll. In both 2008 and 2012 a huge number of surveys had laughable demographics that led to results that some might say favoured one outcome rather than another .... :smiley:
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited April 2016
    MikeK said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MikeK said:

    JackW said:
    It is a fact that Trump is now outpolling the polls by 10%-20% and perhaps more.
    Where ??
    Check last weeks primary results for Trump, as against the polling forecasts.
    He was bang in line with the polling though ;)

    Fivethirtyeight is having a real shocker on the election, I wouldn't pay too much attention to Nate right now !

    Sam Wang is the man - http://election.princeton.edu/

    EXCL Don't Knows from Indiana:

    Trump polling:

    0.43617
    0.42045
    0.42105
    0.45556
    0.41111

    Cruz polling

    0.34043
    0.39773
    0.36842
    0.36667
    0.34444

    Weighted Ave:

    Trump 43.2 % Cruz 35.8% (Trump +7.4%)

    Google correlate:

    http://election.princeton.edu/2016-gop-primary-polls-boundary-county-based-estimates-and-google-correlate-estimates/

    Trump +7%
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited April 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    New Indiana poll, from ARG:

    Trump 41
    Cruz 32
    Kasich 21

    Rich LowryVerified account ‏@RichLowry 11m11 minutes ago
    ARG Indiana poll:On the Republican side, Donald Trump leads Ted Cruz 41% to 32%, with 21% for John Kasich.

    With early voting these are effectively partial exit polls too.
    If this poll is anywhere near to being right then Cruz is dead in the water and will surely quit when he loses Indiana.
    All of which begs the question why is Kasich continuing to fight the good fight?
    Not that I'm complaining mind, having invested all of £2 this morning on him becoming POTUS at odds of 230 on my highly remote "only a heartbeat away" scenario.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    JackW said:

    MikeK said:

    JackW said:
    It is a fact that Trump is now outpolling the polls by 10%-20% and perhaps more.
    Some of the recent GOP polling has been quite entertaining. Moving forward it's worth noting the 538 ratings on the accuracy of the pollsters.

    Also if you have the time study the details - what US pollsters call "crosstabs", the demographic breakdown is crucial to assessing the baseline for the poll. In both 2008 and 2012 a huge number of surveys had laughable demographics that led to results that some might say favoured one outcome rather than another .... :smiley:
    Always read the Demographic info on US polls. Always, always, always.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a fascinating article on American economic insecurity:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

    Some years ago I talked to a debt counsellor in what appeared then, and appears now to be a reasonably prosperous C1 area in SE England. The counsellor told me that she was regularly faced with young women whose marriages had crumbled under the strain of debt and who possessed nothing; even their clothes were on unpaid credit cards.
    There a lot of people in UK who in the position described in the article.
    Sounds like a target rich trapping environment.

    Did you get any phone numbers?
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    New Indiana poll, from ARG:

    Trump 41
    Cruz 32
    Kasich 21

    Rich LowryVerified account ‏@RichLowry 11m11 minutes ago
    ARG Indiana poll:On the Republican side, Donald Trump leads Ted Cruz 41% to 32%, with 21% for John Kasich.

    With early voting these are effectively partial exit polls too.
    If this poll is anywhere near to being right then Cruz is dead in the water and will surely quit when he loses Indiana.
    All of which begs the question why is Kasich continuing to fight the good fight?
    Not that I'm complaining mind, having invested all of £2 this morning on him becoming POTUS at odds of 230 on my highly remote "only a heartbeat away" scenario.
    Kasich is still in it for the obvious reason. The establishment do not want Trump - they will do anything they can to stop Trump - hence all the talk of stealing it at the convention, Cruz announcing his running mate etc etc. But they don't want Cruz either (who is the candidate people really should fear, not The Donald). That leaves Kasich.

    Perhaps they will suggest to Trump that if he picks Kasich as running mate they won't create any bother. Then all it needs is a quick assassination (it worked for the Kennedy's) and they have their pliable candidate. For all the staging America is not a democracy - the choice will be between candidates who do as they are told.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2016
    A gang who conned pensioners out of their life savings in a £1million fraud that helped finance a 'Bank of Terror' funding ISIS in Syria are being jailed today.

    The group, which included an X Factor star and a fraudster who convinced Jeremy Corbyn to argue for bail, had a 'catastrophic' impact on victims, which included Second World War veterans.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3565791/Bank-Terror-fraud-gang-included-X-Factor-star-defendant-supported-Jeremy-Corbyn-face-years-jail-conning-elderly-victims-fund-ISIS-Syria.html

    Always good to see Jahadi Jez living up to his name.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226

    I have a new programme idea..."history with Ken"...perhaps on press tv. Where each week acclaimed amateur historian ken "hug Hitler" livingstone gives us his take on great moments in history.

    LOL. :smiley:

    Coming next week: Titanic sunk by drunk Irish-American cabin staff.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    I think it's not too controversial to say that you'll find the Conservative party are the majority party of national government until May 2020.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Only to the extent that Labour did when Blair was in charge. Or perhaps more aptly, we are now in the period of David Cameron's 'Personal Rule' (1629-1640).
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a fascinating article on American economic insecurity:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

    Some years ago I talked to a debt counsellor in what appeared then, and appears now to be a reasonably prosperous C1 area in SE England. The counsellor told me that she was regularly faced with young women whose marriages had crumbled under the strain of debt and who possessed nothing; even their clothes were on unpaid credit cards.
    There a lot of people in UK who in the position described in the article.
    Sounds like a target rich trapping environment.

    Did you get any phone numbers?
    I think she's lost that loving feeling..
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    Pulpstar said:

    Speedy said:

    New Indiana poll, from ARG:

    Trump 41
    Cruz 32
    Kasich 21

    Rich LowryVerified account ‏@RichLowry 11m11 minutes ago
    ARG Indiana poll:On the Republican side, Donald Trump leads Ted Cruz 41% to 32%, with 21% for John Kasich.

    With early voting these are effectively partial exit polls too.
    If this poll is anywhere near to being right then Cruz is dead in the water and will surely quit when he loses Indiana.
    All of which begs the question why is Kasich continuing to fight the good fight?
    Not that I'm complaining mind, having invested all of £2 this morning on him becoming POTUS at odds of 230 on my highly remote "only a heartbeat away" scenario.
    Kasich is still in it for the obvious reason. The establishment do not want Trump - they will do anything they can to stop Trump - hence all the talk of stealing it at the convention, Cruz announcing his running mate etc etc. But they don't want Cruz either (who is the candidate people really should fear, not The Donald). That leaves Kasich.

    Perhaps they will suggest to Trump that if he picks Kasich as running mate they won't create any bother. Then all it needs is a quick assassination (it worked for the Kennedy's) and they have their pliable candidate. For all the staging America is not a democracy - the choice will be between candidates who do as they are told.
    I didn't wish my "heartbeat" bet to sound too morbid, although the mortality rates for a 70 year old, overweight, highly pressured male can't exactly be in the stratosphere.
    There are of course reasons other than Trump's unfortunate demise, or serious illness which might conceivably prevent him from being sworn in as POTUS next January.
    As someone once remarked "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip." Alternatively sometimes referred to on this site as "Events Dear Boy, Events".
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
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    The Telegraph must be feeling the pinch - just had a phone call trying to get me to resub & they dropped the price twice during the call, best they could offer was £50 a year. Which given I'd paid less than that before cancelling several months ago when they wanted some extortionate amount. Then they asked how I was getting my news... oops - couldn't say I was blocking their paywall cookie! Did tell them their redesign was bad & lack of comments.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    The Telegraph must be feeling the pinch - just had a phone call trying to get me to resub & they dropped the price twice during the call, best they could offer was £50 a year. Which given I'd paid less than that before cancelling several months ago when they wanted some extortionate amount. Then they asked how I was getting my news... oops - couldn't say I was blocking their paywall cookie! Did tell them their redesign was bad & lack of comments.

    The redesign is really really horrid.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    Depends what the deal was.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited April 2016
    next week is also crucial for certain thread authors and whether they retain top spot in the PB Fantasy League... can they crumble when seeming as nailed on like Leicester....

    Poch to 21 - hoorar!!
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    The big question when Cameron clings onto power post-referendum by replacing the awkward right of his own party with the acquiescent right of the Labour party is how the party brands will shake down. Will it be

    - Cameron keeps the Conservative label, the frothers join UKIP, and the Labour right become members of the new Conservatives?
    - The Labour right manage to seize the party back, throw out the lefties, and form a coalition with Cameron’s pro-EU colleagues?
    - or the extremes on the right and left take control of their parties, leading Cameron and Osborne to form a new party with Kendall, Woodcock, Mann et al?

    Most importantly, what does this putative new party get called? First choice would have to be the Centre Party though if Crosby stays involved you wouldn’t rule out the Stability Party. (In passing, I imagine the Conservative right will bear a strong resemblance to the new party proposed in the these pages yesterday).
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    The Telegraph must be feeling the pinch - just had a phone call trying to get me to resub & they dropped the price twice during the call, best they could offer was £50 a year. Which given I'd paid less than that before cancelling several months ago when they wanted some extortionate amount. Then they asked how I was getting my news... oops - couldn't say I was blocking their paywall cookie! Did tell them their redesign was bad & lack of comments.

    The redesign is really really horrid.
    The Times as also done a refurbished design; designed to get us entangled in the web. :(
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    Depends what the deal was.
    If you say so, not sure the voters will see it that way, its also a curious way of aiming to have much of a party left after the referendum.
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    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    One of my favourite bits of political theatre.
    Erich Heffer walking out in a huff and Degsy shouting 'Rubbish' from the floor.
    I wish conferences could go back to being more like that and not the stage managed mush we see these days.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    Depends what the deal was.
    If you say so, not sure the voters will see it that way, its also a curious way of aiming to have much of a party left after the referendum.
    Can you actually point me to what the concessions are? If they were changing policy I would sort of agree with you, but if it was merely delaying an implementation then it is not all that bad.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
    Bring on Greater Albania.

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    ocracy - the choice will be between candidates who do as they are told.

    I didn't wish my "heartbeat" bet to sound too morbid, although the mortality rates for a 70 year old, overweight, highly pressured male can't exactly be in the stratosphere.
    There are of course reasons other than Trump's unfortunate demise, or serious illness which might conceivably prevent him from being sworn in as POTUS next January.
    As someone once remarked "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip." Alternatively sometimes referred to on this site as "Events Dear Boy, Events".

    You're the American establishment. You own things. You control politicians by making them need half a zillion dollars to run. You have control (even managing to get one lot of politicians you control shut down government completely by blocking the actions of the other lot of politicians you own). And times are good for you. Less for for everyone else but so what.

    Then people get mad. Populists at opposite ends of the spectrum unexpectedly gain ground. They don't need your money, they mistrust your money, they make outrageous suggestions that you have been bad for the vast majority who haven't become rich like you. Happily the old white poor guy isn't going to make the nomination - but the old white rich guy is. No matter what your media says about him, no matter how you flame him he just keeps getting the support of the people you screw over. You plan to rig the convention (its not like its a free vote anyway) except that he's so popular that you can't even do that.

    So. Your candidate on the democrat ticket. Not your candidate on the GOP ticket. There's a real risk that your candidate might lose. You have more money than God. You want even more. You're upset that the system you bought isn't playing fair by you. Why leave it to chance? The supporters of the old white rich man even want to bring guns to the convention...
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Polruan said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    The big question when Cameron clings onto power post-referendum by replacing the awkward right of his own party with the acquiescent right of the Labour party is how the party brands will shake down. Will it be

    - Cameron keeps the Conservative label, the frothers join UKIP, and the Labour right become members of the new Conservatives?
    - The Labour right manage to seize the party back, throw out the lefties, and form a coalition with Cameron’s pro-EU colleagues?
    - or the extremes on the right and left take control of their parties, leading Cameron and Osborne to form a new party with Kendall, Woodcock, Mann et al?

    Most importantly, what does this putative new party get called? First choice would have to be the Centre Party though if Crosby stays involved you wouldn’t rule out the Stability Party. (In passing, I imagine the Conservative right will bear a strong resemblance to the new party proposed in the these pages yesterday).
    That's a rather pejorative way of putting it. If you put up a scale for 1 to 10, with Chairman Mao at 1 and Oswald Mosley at 10, Cameron and Blair are about 5.1, there are whole mountains of members and shades of views between them and the extremes, moderate sensible people that are neither Corbynites nor Nick Griffin's merry men. Trying to portray eminently respectable voters and members who happen not to be out and out centrists as extremists is pretty shabby.

    The Milquetoast Party that you are proposing would struggle electorally because it is the pro-immigration, pro-EU party, which will come to be seen as a complete liability over the next 2-3 years, not to mention it is a magic money tree party that is going to be completely discredited the next time the markets turn down.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    So Cameron is cutting deals with the trade unions
    and Nabavi is citing Mandelson as an authoritative source on anything.

    Does the Conservative Party actually exist any more ?

    Do we know what these concessions are? I thought I read that one was a extension of the timeline for implementation of the changes, which is hardly a big deal, but I could be mistaken.
    A Conservative Government cutting deals with trade unions, never mine writing chummy articles in national newspapers with the likes of Brendan Barber, is like "a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers".
    Depends what the deal was.
    If you say so, not sure the voters will see it that way, its also a curious way of aiming to have much of a party left after the referendum.
    Can you actually point me to what the concessions are? If they were changing policy I would sort of agree with you, but if it was merely delaying an implementation then it is not all that bad.
    I am not sure it has leaked yet, but it would probably be safe to say that trade unions are not going to hand over £1.7m for a few warm words that he can row back from 10 minutes after the referendum is passed.
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    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a fascinating article on American economic insecurity:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

    Some years ago I talked to a debt counsellor in what appeared then, and appears now to be a reasonably prosperous C1 area in SE England. The counsellor told me that she was regularly faced with young women whose marriages had crumbled under the strain of debt and who possessed nothing; even their clothes were on unpaid credit cards.
    There a lot of people in UK who in the position described in the article.
    Sounds like a target rich trapping environment.

    Did you get any phone numbers?
    I think she's lost that loving feeling..
    Putting out may be a necessity in the circs.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
    Bring on Greater Albania.

    How many countries have AAA with S&P? Answer 13
    The EU is only AA+, France is AA
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    weejonnie said:

    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
    Bring on Greater Albania.

    How many countries have AAA with S&P? Answer 13
    The EU is only AA+, France is AA
    I assume Albania is one of them?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Jonnie, more importantly, the ratings agencies hardly covered themselves with glory over the financial crisis.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046
    I quite liked this little video from Owen Jones on Zac Goldsmith, mostly it must be said for the comments on the PM. He claimed during PMQs that Mr Suliman Gani supports IS though now he's backtracking.

    Whatever one thinks of Mr Gani he fell out with Labour over gay marriage and now supports the Tories apparently. Even been photographed alongside Goldsmith! Also nice to see Peter Oborne, an admitted contrarian, is refusing to vote Tory in the mayoral election.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KBpBkkbpjs
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Betfair appears to be down.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
    Bring on Greater Albania.

    Are you thinking of opening a PB branch office in Tirana ?
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    Never mind...Osborne's been losing them for years.
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Indigo said:

    Polruan said:


    The big question when Cameron clings onto power post-referendum by replacing the awkward right of his own party with the acquiescent right of the Labour party is how the party brands will shake down. Will it be

    - Cameron keeps the Conservative label, the frothers join UKIP, and the Labour right become members of the new Conservatives?
    - The Labour right manage to seize the party back, throw out the lefties, and form a coalition with Cameron’s pro-EU colleagues?
    - or the extremes on the right and left take control of their parties, leading Cameron and Osborne to form a new party with Kendall, Woodcock, Mann et al?

    Most importantly, what does this putative new party get called? First choice would have to be the Centre Party though if Crosby stays involved you wouldn’t rule out the Stability Party. (In passing, I imagine the Conservative right will bear a strong resemblance to the new party proposed in the these pages yesterday).

    That's a rather pejorative way of putting it. If you put up a scale for 1 to 10, with Chairman Mao at 1 and Oswald Mosley at 10, Cameron and Blair are about 5.1, there are whole mountains of members and shades of views between them and the extremes, moderate sensible people that are neither Corbynites nor Nick Griffin's merry men. Trying to portray eminently respectable voters and members who happen not to be out and out centrists as extremists is pretty shabby.

    The Milquetoast Party that you are proposing would struggle electorally because it is the pro-immigration, pro-EU party, which will come to be seen as a complete liability over the next 2-3 years, not to mention it is a magic money tree party that is going to be completely discredited the next time the markets turn down.
    I'm sorry, I wasn't really trying to be pejorative and I'm not suggesting that everyone to the right or left of Cameron's ideal centre is in any way an extremist - when you get to Griffin, yes, when you get to Corbyn you have to go a bit further left to hit Griffin's equivalent. That's my point though: there is a lot of respectable political space that the Cameroons and the Labour right are not interested in occupying. And the Cameron project, as with the Labour right project, is to portray the party members in that space as extremists (threatening our economy, security etc etc). I don't see that we can end up with two main parties endlessly fighting over that space, particularly with the anti-politics mood increasing by the day; but Cameron's desire to maintain power by portraying everyone else as an extremists means it makes perfect sense for him to destroy Labour by making common cause with its "sensible" members. Who, when you look at their actions on the Welfare Bill last year (for example) will be falling over one another to accept.

    I'd like to think it would struggle electorally, but I'm not convinced.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/david-cameron-unions-brexit-trade-union-bill-brendan-barber

    Seems they are dropping the requirement for electronic voting, and also from scrapping he "checking off" system whereby union members’ subs are deducted by public-sector employers, and giving them an extra 9 months to find new funding sources before the rules kick in

    “The unions appear to have got a better deal buying policy from a Conservative Government than they ever did from Labour.”
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a fascinating article on American economic insecurity:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

    "I never wanted to keep up with the Joneses. But, like many Americans, I wanted my children to keep up with the Joneses’ children"
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Polruan said:

    I'm sorry, I wasn't really trying to be pejorative and I'm not suggesting that everyone to the right or left of Cameron's ideal centre is in any way an extremist - when you get to Griffin, yes, when you get to Corbyn you have to go a bit further left to hit Griffin's equivalent. That's my point though: there is a lot of respectable political space that the Cameroons and the Labour right are not interested in occupying. And the Cameron project, as with the Labour right project, is to portray the party members in that space as extremists (threatening our economy, security etc etc). I don't see that we can end up with two main parties endlessly fighting over that space, particularly with the anti-politics mood increasing by the day; but Cameron's desire to maintain power by portraying everyone else as an extremists means it makes perfect sense for him to destroy Labour by making common cause with its "sensible" members. Who, when you look at their actions on the Welfare Bill last year (for example) will be falling over one another to accept.

    I'd like to think it would struggle electorally, but I'm not convinced.

    I think we are in general agreement in that case.

  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Indigo said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/david-cameron-unions-brexit-trade-union-bill-brendan-barber

    Seems they are dropping the requirement for electronic voting, and also from scrapping he "checking off" system whereby union members’ subs are deducted by public-sector employers, and giving them an extra 9 months to find new funding sources before the rules kick in

    “The unions appear to have got a better deal buying policy from a Conservative Government than they ever did from Labour.”

    Regarding electronic voting, the article doesn't match what you posted:

    But the government has backed down on a crucial point over banning electronic balloting, which may make it far easier to get members to vote. The Tories used it themselves to select Zac Goldsmith as London mayoral candidate, but banned it for trade union ballots. Now it will be reviewed independently. Let’s hope this leads to electronic ballots for all elections, at a time when so many of the young don’t vote.

    Which implies that the bill was going to ban it? But yes, some actual concessions. I can see your point, but I suspect the bill may have had a hard time getting through the Lords without some concessions in any case.
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    Superb. That'll teach them to collide tuppenny rice and treacle.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Former House Speaker John Boehner, 'Ted Cruz is Lucifer'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36163188
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    RobD said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/david-cameron-unions-brexit-trade-union-bill-brendan-barber

    Seems they are dropping the requirement for electronic voting, and also from scrapping he "checking off" system whereby union members’ subs are deducted by public-sector employers, and giving them an extra 9 months to find new funding sources before the rules kick in

    “The unions appear to have got a better deal buying policy from a Conservative Government than they ever did from Labour.”

    Regarding electronic voting, the article doesn't match what you posted:

    But the government has backed down on a crucial point over banning electronic balloting, which may make it far easier to get members to vote. The Tories used it themselves to select Zac Goldsmith as London mayoral candidate, but banned it for trade union ballots. Now it will be reviewed independently. Let’s hope this leads to electronic ballots for all elections, at a time when so many of the young don’t vote.

    Which implies that the bill was going to ban it? But yes, some actual concessions. I can see your point, but I suspect the bill may have had a hard time getting through the Lords without some concessions in any case.
    That's right, the bill was imposing tougher voting thresholds but not allowing any measures to facilitate easier voting. IIRC a number of unions were prepared to drop opposition to the bill (or at least many substantive parts of it) in return for modern voting systems and Cameron made a pretty strong speech about how the least you could expect from people wanting to strike was to make the effort to vote properly. So a significant u-turn.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited April 2016
    Diane Abbott says everything is tickety-boo, nothing to see here, move along please

    http://order-order.com/2016/04/29/diane-abbott-defends-naz-shah-says-anti-semitism-isnt-a-problem-for-labour/

    EDIT: And Chairman Milne praising Hamas

    http://order-order.com/2016/04/29/seumas-milne-praises-hamas/

    Staines must think Christmas has come early.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Socialist Worker Party backs Sadiq Khan

    One activist, Simon Hester, told the meeting: “We will be backing Sadiq Khan in the election because of Jeremy and because of the difference he’s made, and because we don’t want to be seen to be undermining what will be seen as a referendum on Jeremy’s leadership"

    Mr Hester praised the Labour leader for “making a huge difference” and putting the Tories “on the back foot” over issues such as academies and junior doctors.

    He said the wider Left should unite “with Jeremy taking the front” and “building the battle” against the Government: “All these things are going to be the things that really start to undermine the Tories and maybe even bring down dodgy Dave way before 2020.”
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/socialist-party-backs-sadiq-khan-in-jeremy-corbyn-referendum-a3236826.html
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    I've always had the feeling, sans any proof, that the Large Hadron Collider is one of the biggest scientific scams ever.

    But with so much work and billions of Euros, not to mention reputations, invested in it I don't expect it to be proclaimed a failure any time soon. Or ever.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    MikeK said:

    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    I've always had the feeling, sans any proof, that the Large Hadron Collider is one of the biggest scientific scams ever.

    But with so much work and billions of Euros, not to mention reputations, invested in it I don't expect it to be proclaimed a failure any time soon. Or ever.
    This is probably because it doesn't have an easily explainable end product (for want of a better word).
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    HYUFD said:

    Former House Speaker John Boehner, 'Ted Cruz is Lucifer'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36163188

    Nah - Ken Livingstone is Lucifer. If he's out then the stories will emerge. The real story is how Labour have protected him.

    Corbyn is a bystander in all this as far as I know.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited April 2016
    MikeK said:

    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    I've always had the feeling, sans any proof, that the Large Hadron Collider is one of the biggest scientific scams ever.

    But with so much work and billions of Euros, not to mention reputations, invested in it I don't expect it to be proclaimed a failure any time soon. Or ever.
    It does seem to double as a wildlife reserve, so you're getting bang (or pop) for your buck.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    MikeK said:

    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    I've always had the feeling, sans any proof, that the Large Hadron Collider is one of the biggest scientific scams ever.

    But with so much work and billions of Euros, not to mention reputations, invested in it I don't expect it to be proclaimed a failure any time soon. Or ever.
    I think you're dead right.

    The worst of it is that they shut down all of the other lines of enquiry.

    Higgs boson, my foot - this doesn't feel right.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Sky news at 7pm just horrible for Labour
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Floater said:

    Sky news at 7pm just horrible for Labour

    Did they run the jezza "who are you"...sky news..."Goodbye"...then stuck trying to get through the door for what seems like forever?
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
    Bring on Greater Albania.

    It's already here where I live :D
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2016
    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former House Speaker John Boehner, 'Ted Cruz is Lucifer'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36163188

    Nah - Ken Livingstone is Lucifer. If he's out then the stories will emerge. The real story is how Labour have protected him.

    Corbyn is a bystander in all this as far as I know.
    I would say Hitler was, but apparently pre-1932 he wasn't a bad bloke (according to amateur historian ken)
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Indigo said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/david-cameron-unions-brexit-trade-union-bill-brendan-barber

    Seems they are dropping the requirement for electronic voting, and also from scrapping he "checking off" system whereby union members’ subs are deducted by public-sector employers, and giving them an extra 9 months to find new funding sources before the rules kick in

    “The unions appear to have got a better deal buying policy from a Conservative Government than they ever did from Labour.”

    They had something Cameron wanted more desperately.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    RobD said:

    weejonnie said:

    Scott_P said:

    @lindayueh: S&P affirms top AAA credit rating for UK but has a negative outlook & likely downgrade & lose it if #Brexit

    It really is disgusting what these organizations will do to stop Britain becoming a self governing democracy again.
    Bring on Greater Albania.

    How many countries have AAA with S&P? Answer 13
    The EU is only AA+, France is AA
    I assume Albania is one of them?
    B+ - but if they get fee trade with the EU I am sure it will be AAAA with positive outlook.
    FWIW Egypt is B-
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2016
    Floater said:

    Sky news at 7pm just horrible for Labour

    Ken's been draining his pond today, apparently.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    AndyJS said:

    Floater said:

    Sky news at 7pm just horrible for Labour

    Ken's been draining his pond today, apparently.
    Letting all his newts escape or selling them to Chinese medicine men?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    AndyJS said:

    Floater said:

    Sky news at 7pm just horrible for Labour

    Ken's been draining his pond today, apparently.
    Combining the two stories of the day, here's a famous Newt discussing Trump's foreign policy speech.

    https://www.facebook.com/newtgingrich/videos/10154111359679197/
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MikeK said:

    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    I've always had the feeling, sans any proof, that the Large Hadron Collider is one of the biggest scientific scams ever.

    But with so much work and billions of Euros, not to mention reputations, invested in it I don't expect it to be proclaimed a failure any time soon. Or ever.
    Science? Nah, go by unsubstantiated intuition. It is so much cheaper to be ignorant too.

  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    weejonnie said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/david-cameron-unions-brexit-trade-union-bill-brendan-barber

    Seems they are dropping the requirement for electronic voting, and also from scrapping he "checking off" system whereby union members’ subs are deducted by public-sector employers, and giving them an extra 9 months to find new funding sources before the rules kick in

    “The unions appear to have got a better deal buying policy from a Conservative Government than they ever did from Labour.”

    They had something Cameron wanted more desperately.
    Yep. Cameron is the gift that keeps giving. The logo he gave the Tories was a green tree, is he painting it red?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AgentP22: Welcome to SNP run Scotland.

    The only country in the world whose future is decided by an opinion poll. https://t.co/BshoOErAXA
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/joshdixontweets/status/726066362737680384

    Oh dear.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2016
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/joshdixontweets/status/726066362737680384

    Next president of the NUS speaks...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Scott_P said:

    @AgentP22: Welcome to SNP run Scotland.

    The only country in the world whose future is decided by an opinion poll. https://t.co/BshoOErAXA

    Like I previously said. Banning polls on independence will guarantee the Union for the next thousand years!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693

    MikeK said:

    Anorak said:

    Anyone mentioned this yet? Headline of the year, maybe...

    Large Hadron Collider: Weasel causes shutdown

    I've always had the feeling, sans any proof, that the Large Hadron Collider is one of the biggest scientific scams ever.

    But with so much work and billions of Euros, not to mention reputations, invested in it I don't expect it to be proclaimed a failure any time soon. Or ever.
    Science? Nah, go by unsubstantiated intuition. It is so much cheaper to be ignorant too.

    lol. Reminds me of this;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
This discussion has been closed.