Talking about the bombing of Syria by the RAF. Have we changed the course of the war by dropping half a dozen bombs so that we are seen as a major "world power" ? My arse !
But there is another possible explanation, and that’s the belief found close to many leftwing hearts that they, and they alone, are the good guys – the champions of equality and fairness – and therefore incapable of prejudice. They don’t need to question their assumptions, or take a long hard look in the mirror, because the racists are the other guys.
Top comment: John Mann has brought the Labour Party into disrepute and slandered Ken. Ken is not antisemitic and it is ridiculous that he has been suspended. Mann is the only person I see acting like a Nazi.
Please put Mann up for deselection immediately so his constituents can get a good socialist to represent them.
Jeremy Corbyn has launched an independent inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour party amid pressure to expel Ken Livingstone.
The panel, led by former Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti, will offer guidance about anti-Semitism and other forms of racism - despite the Labour leader insisting yesterday there was 'no crisis'. But on announcing the inquiry and a new 'code of conduct' Mr Corbyn said there was 'no place for anti-Semitism' in the party. Earlier today, Mr Livingstone again defiantly insisted he did nothing wrong by claiming that Hitler was a 'Zionist'. He also signalled he will be using the writings of an obscure Marxist historian to justify his comments to an internal party disciplinary probe.
Sadiq Khan will have a bigger direct mandate than any other UK politician if he is elected.
Given the utterly catastrophic council seat losses Labour are about to suffer across the UK you have to have some comfort blanket to hang on to I suppose. When you are down to claiming your one potential win, a single council official, is a massive victory while the remainder of your empire burns to the ground then you truly are in a very very dark place.
Not to worry though? As long as we all understand that Ken is great and it was "Europeans that killed 6 million" heh?
"Say what you like about Hitler, but there was a painter! He could finish a room in an afternoon. Two coats!"
What about making the trains run on time? Or was that the wop?
"Look, I'm not defending everything he did. The Holocaust.....it was a bit over the top. But before that. He built the autobahns, he created full employment, there was Strength through Joy, and he brought religious schools into the State system. And, he was a vegetarian, too, and loved animals. You've got to give him some credit for that."
Excellent article David. I heard Alan Johnson on This Week say that Naz Shah was the only person to come out of this week with any credit. Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?
Even the moderates like Johnson suffer from the delusion that Labour = good. I think Labour should be investigating the selection process for Shah. Given the seat she contested it is hard not to draw the conclusion that the Labour Party was happy to select a candidate with such views.
“Nicola Sturgeon appears to be saying that she will throw Scotland’s place in the UK into doubt on the back of three opinion polls showing support for independence.
“The SNP has no mandate for independence at this [parliamentary] election and the complete lack of clarity which she is showing over this most vital of issues only serves to show why.”
Meanwhile
Alex Salmond made clear that he would like to return to the Scottish parliament.
SNP ministers are preparing to fight back against critics of its controversial “named person” scheme by launching a major new information campaign to win over the public.
It was derided last night by opponents of the scheme who condemned the use of taxpayers’ money to promote what they said was an unpopular policy.
Simon Calvert, spokesman for the campaign group No to Named Persons, said: “It looks like the government has moved into full crisis mode. They’ve hit the panic button as ministers and civil servants realise they have lost the crucial trial this legislation has faced in the court of public opinion.”
"Say what you like about Hitler, but there was a painter! He could finish a room in an afternoon. Two coats!"
What about making the trains run on time? Or was that the wop?
"Look, I'm not defending everything he did. The Holocaust.....it was a bit over the top. But before that. He built the autobahns, he created full employment, there was Strength through Joy, and he brought religious schools into the State system. And, he was a vegetarian, too, and loved animals. You've got to give him some credit for that."
The worrying thing is that under other circumstances I wouldn't be sure whether that quote, which of course contains several things that are demonstrably incorrect, was a parody or what KRL had actually said. He's beginning to resemble David Irving in the crazier things he has said recently (not all of them about Nazism, of course)!
If Corbyn thinks there is no crisis, he's even stupider than he appears. But then he is also the man who shares platforms with Holocaust deniers...
Excellent article David. I heard Alan Johnson on This Week say that Naz Shah was the only person to come out of this week with any credit. Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?
Even the moderates like Johnson suffer from the delusion that Labour = good. I think Labour should be investigating the selection process for Shah. Given the seat she contested it is hard not to draw the conclusion that the Labour Party was happy to select a candidate with such views.
"Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?"
Let's not forget anyone right of centre cannot use the words "bunch" or "swarm" without being labelled a racist. The problem is the the Labour Party spend more time accusing others of what they actually do more of themselves. They are so blinkered they just cannot see it yet, this week alone, despite trying to keep a lid on it the pus from the sore bursts forth for all to see. It's actually systemic because it goes to its very top to its very heart.
Excellent article David. I heard Alan Johnson on This Week say that Naz Shah was the only person to come out of this week with any credit. Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?
Even the moderates like Johnson suffer from the delusion that Labour = good. I think Labour should be investigating the selection process for Shah. Given the seat she contested it is hard not to draw the conclusion that the Labour Party was happy to select a candidate with such views.
"Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?"
Let's not forget anyone right of centre cannot use the words "bunch" or "swarm" without being labelled a racist. The problem is the the Labour Party spend more time accusing others of what they actually do more of themselves. They are so blinkered they just cannot see it yet, this week alone, despite trying to keep a lid on it the pus from the sore bursts forth for all to see. It's actually systemic because it goes to its very top to its very heart.
When you know that you are righteous, you condemn faults in others that you excuse in yourself.
SNP ministers are preparing to fight back against critics of its controversial “named person” scheme by launching a major new information campaign to win over the public.
It was derided last night by opponents of the scheme who condemned the use of taxpayers’ money to promote what they said was an unpopular policy.
Simon Calvert, spokesman for the campaign group No to Named Persons, said: “It looks like the government has moved into full crisis mode. They’ve hit the panic button as ministers and civil servants realise they have lost the crucial trial this legislation has faced in the court of public opinion.”
Ha Ha Ha , it is only the London right wing Tories that are wittering on about it , and maybe a few crackpots and paid dummies. If only the Tories had a policy in Scotland for anybody to even discuss.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
Excellent article David. I heard Alan Johnson on This Week say that Naz Shah was the only person to come out of this week with any credit. Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?
Even the moderates like Johnson suffer from the delusion that Labour = good. I think Labour should be investigating the selection process for Shah. Given the seat she contested it is hard not to draw the conclusion that the Labour Party was happy to select a candidate with such views.
Naz Shah was not the first choice for Labour in Bradford West. She got the candidacy at short notice when Amina Ali dropped out. This was only 8 weeks before the GE election, perhaps not leaving enough time for vetting.
A number of issues run together in a toxic brew here, including local "community leaders" in Bradford trying to install a candidate of their own, a favoured London based candidate being parachuted controversially into a winnable seat, and an all woman shortlist being imposed.
What we see is chaotic party management in the Milliband years coming to fruition. Fail to prepare - prepare to fail.
Sadiq Khan will have a bigger direct mandate than any other UK politician if he is elected.
Given the utterly catastrophic council seat losses Labour are about to suffer across the UK you have to have some comfort blanket to hang on to I suppose. When you are down to claiming your one potential win, a single council official, is a massive victory while the remainder of your empire burns to the ground then you truly are in a very very dark place.
Not to worry though? As long as we all understand that Ken is great and it was "Europeans that killed 6 million" heh?
Khan has basically disowned Corbyn and has kept him as far away from his campaign as possible.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
But there is another possible explanation, and that’s the belief found close to many leftwing hearts that they, and they alone, are the good guys – the champions of equality and fairness – and therefore incapable of prejudice. They don’t need to question their assumptions, or take a long hard look in the mirror, because the racists are the other guys.
Top comment: John Mann has brought the Labour Party into disrepute and slandered Ken. Ken is not antisemitic and it is ridiculous that he has been suspended. Mann is the only person I see acting like a Nazi.
Please put Mann up for deselection immediately so his constituents can get a good socialist to represent them.
Ha Ha Ha , it is only the London right wing Tories that are wittering on about it
SNP ministers have drawn up “emergency” plans for a public relations campaign to “salvage” their proposals to assign every child a state guardian amid a growing rebellion from parents, campaigners have said.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
This week has highlighted any number of people who are Jewish.
Who cares? Gosh I might even be friends with a Jew. I could even work with Jews in the office. Horror of horrors!! Message for Labour. I don't care. Labours problem is that Labour does care.
Stephen Pollard writes in the Telegraph......
"As a young boy, I used to think my grandma very strange. In her bedroom she kept a suitcase, packed and ready for use at a moment’s notice. “Just in case,” she’d tell me when I asked where it was that she was always waiting to go to. “You never know when they’ll turn on the Jews.”
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
Yes, that is the reason for the Corbynite left being so tolerant/open to anti-semitism. The anti-semitism of the Islamists is even more toxic though, as it carries so much baggage in terms of misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance of apostasy or free speech.
I agree with Johnson in that Naz Shah made a fulsome apology rather than the mealy mouthed ones that we usually get from politicians, and genuinely seemed repentant of her remarks on Facebook. I think that she has genuinely changed her opinions. She is not from a political hot house of SPADery, and has a backstory that gives voice to oppressed muslim women.
If we want politicians, whether left or right, who are not just identikit clones of sharp suited PPE SPADS vetted to be free of any trace of controversy, then we have to be accepting of some odd remarks made in the past. If the politician is repentant and demonstrates that they have matured, then that is an excellent example to others.
Yep, that Hinsliff article is bang on the money. She gets it absolutely.
She's half right.
Left wingers imagine themselves to be morally superior, so "can't be racist" is bang on, however her assertion that this belief has been rocked by Ken is wide of the mark.
Watch Jon Trickett on Newsnight a couple of days ago. He actually said "Racism is an attribute of the right"
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Labour has tolerated widespread, overt anti-Semitism among its membership for far too long. The hard left within Labour has embraced it. Labour members and officials have no-one to blame for this but themselves. Mann looked genuinely furious to me, as anyone with his long track record of fighting anti-Semitism and calling it out would have been.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
Yes, that is the reason for the Corbynite left being so tolerant/open to anti-semitism. The anti-semitism of the Islamists is even more toxic though, as it carries so much baggage in terms of misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance of apostasy or free speech.
I agree with Johnson in that Naz Shah made a fulsome apology rather than the mealy mouthed ones that we usually get from politicians, and genuinely seemed repentant of her remarks on Facebook. I think that she has genuinely changed her opinions. She is not from a political hot house of SPADery, and has a backstory that gives voice to oppressed muslim women.
If we want politicians, whether left or right, who are not just identikit clones of sharp suited PPE SPADS vetted to be free of any trace of controversy, then we have to be accepting of some odd remarks made in the past. If the politician is repentant and demonstrates that they have matured, then that is an excellent example to others.
And the electorate are pretty grown up about it. "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, those views are wrong and I apologize"
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
Yes, that is the reason for the Corbynite left being so tolerant/open to anti-semitism. The anti-semitism of the Islamists is even more toxic though, as it carries so much baggage in terms of misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance of apostasy or free speech.
I agree with Johnson in that Naz Shah made a fulsome apology rather than the mealy mouthed ones that we usually get from politicians, and genuinely seemed repentant of her remarks on Facebook. I think that she has genuinely changed her opinions. She is not from a political hot house of SPADery, and has a backstory that gives voice to oppressed muslim women.
If we want politicians, whether left or right, who are not just identikit clones of sharp suited PPE SPADS vetted to be free of any trace of controversy, then we have to be accepting of some odd remarks made in the past. If the politician is repentant and demonstrates that they have matured, then that is an excellent example to others.
I agree about Naz Shah. As I said last night, I recall saying something appalling during a heated political argument, and having to apologise profusely.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
Yes, that is the reason for the Corbynite left being so tolerant/open to anti-semitism. The anti-semitism of the Islamists is even more toxic though, as it carries so much baggage in terms of misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance of apostasy or free speech.
I agree with Johnson in that Naz Shah made a fulsome apology rather than the mealy mouthed ones that we usually get from politicians, and genuinely seemed repentant of her remarks on Facebook. I think that she has genuinely changed her opinions. She is not from a political hot house of SPADery, and has a backstory that gives voice to oppressed muslim women.
If we want politicians, whether left or right, who are not just identikit clones of sharp suited PPE SPADS vetted to be free of any trace of controversy, then we have to be accepting of some odd remarks made in the past. If the politician is repentant and demonstrates that they have matured, then that is an excellent example to others.
Completely agree. The support Shah has received from Bradford synagogue has been under-reported, but does indicate she is genuine in her contrition. However, she deserved to be suspended.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Head still well and truly firmly planted in the sand I see. Well, Feel free because just like a Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, until such time as you admit you have a serious problem, face up to your demons then you will just continue onwards and downwards into oblivion.
Anyhoo....It's a lovely day and too nice to sit here and argue what is plain for any civilised person to see.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
Suppose that is correct, for the sake of argument, it remains the case that underdogs are capable of doing very bad things, and of being oppressors in their turn. And they shouldn't get a pass for it.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
So a Labour councillor saying Hitler is the "greatest man in history" and so on is only an issue due to right wing virtue signalling?
Got you. You're a troll who can't see racism when it's written in black and white because the left doesn't do racism. I thought you were better than that.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
You can support Palestinians without embracing anti-Semites. That's what Labour used to do. For the hard left that now controls the party the US is at the root of all evil. It's enemy's enemy is its friend. That's why Putin is never criticised and Iranian TV stations are a favoured hang out.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
Yes, that is the reason for the Corbynite left being so tolerant/open to anti-semitism. The anti-semitism of the Islamists is even more toxic though, as it carries so much baggage in terms of misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance of apostasy or free speech.
I agree with Johnson in that Naz Shah made a fulsome apology rather than the mealy mouthed ones that we usually get from politicians, and genuinely seemed repentant of her remarks on Facebook. I think that she has genuinely changed her opinions. She is not from a political hot house of SPADery, and has a backstory that gives voice to oppressed muslim women.
If we want politicians, whether left or right, who are not just identikit clones of sharp suited PPE SPADS vetted to be free of any trace of controversy, then we have to be accepting of some odd remarks made in the past. If the politician is repentant and demonstrates that they have matured, then that is an excellent example to others.
Good post.
I note that Livinggstone is 71. When I was a lot younger and working I used to say that I would retire from full-time work at 65 and from part-time at 70 to avoid being labelled as I had seen others labelled; that poor old chap; used to be good once, but who has rather lost touch.
Not saying everyone over 70 is in that stage by any means, but there’s a risk.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
This is why the review is bound to fail. I think Labour has become very reliant on a high Muslim vote in parts of the country and the Naz Shah incident shows that a significant proportion of that vote has a problem with Jews. For me what she supported on Facebook was more insidious than the rantings of Livingstone. I have no doubt at all that she both knew and meant it. Rupa Huq MP and fellow Muslim supported her. It is not difficult to join up the dots here.
"The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirety"
*Moral superiority mode off....
Well it's a view I suppose. Meanwhile Israel remains entirely surrounded by enemies that wish to eradicate it from the planet.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
So a Labour councillor saying Hitler is the "greatest man in history" and so on is only an issue due to right wing virtue signalling?
Got you. You're a troll who can't see racism when it's written in black and white because the left doesn't do racism. I thought you were better than that.
Did someone say that "Hitler is the greatest man in history" or have you just made it up? As for the 'Left ' doing racism if you think Livingstone is more of a racist then Littlejohn or Guido then you need to go on the wagon.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
So a Labour councillor saying Hitler is the "greatest man in history" and so on is only an issue due to right wing virtue signalling?
Got you. You're a troll who can't see racism when it's written in black and white because the left doesn't do racism. I thought you were better than that.
Did someone say that "Hitler is the greatest man in history" or have you just made it up? As for the 'Left ' doing racism if you think Livingstone is more of a racist then Littlejohn or Guido then you need to go on the wagon.
Roger showing clearly the mind set of the left here - and why the review is doomed.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
So a Labour councillor saying Hitler is the "greatest man in history" and so on is only an issue due to right wing virtue signalling?
Got you. You're a troll who can't see racism when it's written in black and white because the left doesn't do racism. I thought you were better than that.
Did someone say that "Hitler is the greatest man in history" or have you just made it up? As for the 'Left ' doing racism if you think Livingstone is more of a racist then Littlejohn or Guido then you need to go on the wagon.
Not making it up. Sky News just had a timeline of Labour antisemitism incidents in recent weeks and that was one of them.
As for Littlejohn I can't stand him and have never defended him. I think Livingstone is more racist than Guido yes. Where has Guido said something similar about Hitler? Not that its a competition, there is racism on all sides and it should be confronted wherever it rears it's ugly head, not simply confront political opponents and ignore those on your own political side. That is partisanship nothing more.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to support suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
So a Labour councillor saying Hitler is the "greatest man in history" and so on is only an issue due to right wing virtue signalling?
Got you. You're a troll who can't see racism when it's written in black and white because the left doesn't do racism. I thought you were better than that.
Did someone say that "Hitler is the greatest man in history" or have you just made it up? As for the 'Left ' doing racism if you think Livingstone is more of a racist then Littlejohn or Guido then you need to go on the wagon.
My own Councillor in Luton, Aysegul Gurbuz. Again, she's only 20, and will hopefully grow up, but she is an elected representative.
Other comments were "I love my new tutor, even though she's a Jew" "LOL! Iran has nuclear weapons. Hope they'll wipe Israel off the map" "Hitler, he's my man.". "The power of the Jews in the US. It's disgusting" etc etc.
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
Rubbish Mann is a useless plonker , his only actions are shouting his big mouth off to try and appear as if he is virtuous and relevant. A worse than usual Labour donkey who should be on minimum wage for his contribution at best.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
But, but, but...
the other oft heard argument from the Left is that Israel is an artificial state that would collapse economically (and possibly militarily) if it wasn't propped up by the United States.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
Rubbish Mann is a useless plonker , his only actions are shouting his big mouth off to try and appear as if he is virtuous and relevant. A worse than usual Labour donkey who should be on minimum wage for his contribution at best.
Even more LOL , Alan Rodent a rabid delusional SNP hater.
What else can one expect from a far left party in government. The SNP are showing it's true colours. First snoop on every family with young children, then get the data on every person in Scotland. As a byplay recruit thousands of snoopers - Named Persons - and use them to blackmail the people for every little infringement of the so called rules.
This is how dictatorships work. Nicola Sturgeon is in bad company.
I see Roger is back on form with his righteous tosh.."the left stand shoulder to shoulder with the underdog"..utter nonsense.
I think roger is correct in this, indeed it is the foundation of the rainbow coalition idea of disparate marginalised groups from BME groups, feminists, LBGT groups, environmentalists, youth etc that is how left wing parties have evolved over the years.
What we are seeing is that many of those underdogs have triumphed over their oppressors and many of the original causes are mainstream. I would include feminism in this with a Old Etonian WASP PM actively denouncing the gender pay gap, environmentalism too, and gay marriage hardly controversial any more. This leads to the question that was the centre of Labours leadership contest last year "What is the purpose of Labour?"
Inevitably victory leads to the break up of such a rainbow coalition. It also puts some of the old school "social conservatives" outside mainstream politics. Hence both the rise of kipperdom and the restiveness of the Tory backwoodsmen.
For an outwardly conventional person, David Cameron has been paradoxically a real revolutionary in smashing the established order. Interesting times.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
This week has highlighted any number of people who are Jewish.
Who cares? Gosh I might even be friends with a Jew. I could even work with Jews in the office. Horror of horrors!! Message for Labour. I don't care. Labours problem is that Labour does care.
Stephen Pollard writes in the Telegraph......
"As a young boy, I used to think my grandma very strange. In her bedroom she kept a suitcase, packed and ready for use at a moment’s notice. “Just in case,” she’d tell me when I asked where it was that she was always waiting to go to. “You never know when they’ll turn on the Jews.”
It's poignant reading. Civilised people will be asking Labour to take note .....they won't of course, it's to entrenched.
Danny Finkelstein wrote a similar article about a year ago, and said discussions like this were happening again within his own circle. It was the first time I actually grasped what it meant to be Jewish - and fearful of real persecution.
IIRC a significant number of European Jews have emigrated to Israel and elsewhere as a direct result of the rapidly expanding Muslim population/race attacks.
Roger standing "shoulder to shoulder with the underdog" on the highly dangerous kill zone of the rose laden terrace of his posh chateau in the south of France.
Excellent article David. I heard Alan Johnson on This Week say that Naz Shah was the only person to come out of this week with any credit. Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?
Even the moderates like Johnson suffer from the delusion that Labour = good. I think Labour should be investigating the selection process for Shah. Given the seat she contested it is hard not to draw the conclusion that the Labour Party was happy to select a candidate with such views.
"Her apology may have been completely sincere, but can you imagine Alan Johnson praising a Tory for apologising for making racist comments for example?"
Let's not forget anyone right of centre cannot use the words "bunch" or "swarm" without being labelled a racist. The problem is the the Labour Party spend more time accusing others of what they actually do more of themselves. They are so blinkered they just cannot see it yet, this week alone, despite trying to keep a lid on it the pus from the sore bursts forth for all to see. It's actually systemic because it goes to its very top to its very heart.
Yes so true. Before this Naz/Ken news broke, we had Chuka Umunna denouncing Cameron for being racist over pointing out Khan's links to scum bags. This week Chuka Umunna is silent on the clear anti-jewish statements coming from these Labour representatives. Beams and Motes. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
Hypocrisy.
What an excellent post.
And this is what makes me angry, there are millions of people who need representation, the Labour party was formed with the very best of intentions. However they have been taken over by arrogant, sneering, patronising virtue signallers.
If you want to disagree with anything MM has posted read Roger's posts, he's standing shoulder to shoulder with the underdog from his villa in Tuscany.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
Mann chairs the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism - no wonder he's beyond livid. He does have a habit of getting rather angry-letter-writer [usually about Tories for minor infractions], but I didn't think there was anything much wrong with his behaviour myself.
There's some clever people on here, I'd like some help.
At school in the 70s I'm sure I was told 6m died in the camps, mainly jews but also, gypsies, political prisoners, POWs etc. This has now changed to 6m Jews.
In terms of horror the numbers are fairly irrelevant but I wonder if I'm mistaken or if history has been rewritten, was anybody else taught similar?
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
Mann chairs the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism - no wonder he's beyond livid. He does have a habit of getting rather angry-letter-writer [usually about Tories for minor infractions], but I didn't think there was anything much wrong with his behaviour myself.
Ye Gods, to think there is an entity called the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism.
What a fucking mess we're in. Perhaps there'll be Jew only drinking fountains in Bradford next.
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
Hypocrisy.
What an excellent post.
And this is what makes me angry, there are millions of people who need representation, the Labour party was formed with the very best of intentions. However they have been taken over by arrogant, sneering, patronising virtue signallers.
If you want to disagree with anything MM has posted read Roger's posts, he's standing shoulder to shoulder with the underdog from his villa in Tuscany.
Pedant on... Roger lives in a posh chateau in the South of France it's Tyson the other absolute leftie on here that has a posh villa in the sun drenched vineyards of Tuscany. ( not sure if he is standing shoulder to shoulder though?) Pedant off...
I see Roger is back on form with his righteous tosh.."the left stand shoulder to shoulder with the underdog"..utter nonsense.
I think roger is correct in this, indeed it is the foundation of the rainbow coalition idea of disparate marginalised groups from BME groups, feminists, LBGT groups, environmentalists, youth etc that is how left wing parties have evolved over the years.
What we are seeing is that many of those underdogs have triumphed over their oppressors and many of the original causes are mainstream. I would include feminism in this with a Old Etonian WASP PM actively denouncing the gender pay gap, environmentalism too, and gay marriage hardly controversial any more. This leads to the question that was the centre of Labours leadership contest last year "What is the purpose of Labour?"
Inevitably victory leads to the break up of such a rainbow coalition. It also puts some of the old school "social conservatives" outside mainstream politics. Hence both the rise of kipperdom and the restiveness of the Tory backwoodsmen.
For an outwardly conventional person, David Cameron has been paradoxically a real revolutionary in smashing the established order. Interesting times.
Forgive me Dr, but I think this is what's wrong with politics. This obsession with identity politics is merely a sideshow. That's why I try not to get too outraged by Shah and Livingstone. The satisfaction, as many have pointed out, comes from the fact the Left love nothing more than to accuse their opponents of racism, sexism and whatever else.
I always thought that the Labour Party existed to fight for the rights of the worker. I appreciate that the world today is quite different to that of the past, but there is still very much a role for a left of centre party in today's world. But Labour have to work this out for themselves. Right now this country has a budget deficit of £75bn. At some point in the future things are going to get very tough in this country and Labour need to be clear in their mind how to respond when that time comes. As long as they are obsessed with identity politics then I'm afraid they will never be in government again.
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
Hypocrisy.
What an excellent post.
And this is what makes me angry, there are millions of people who need representation, the Labour party was formed with the very best of intentions. However they have been taken over by arrogant, sneering, patronising virtue signallers.
If you want to disagree with anything MM has posted read Roger's posts, he's standing shoulder to shoulder with the underdog from his villa in Tuscany.
Pedant on... Roger lives in a posh chateau in the South of France it's Tyson the other absolute leftie on here that has a posh villa in the sun drenched vineyards of Tuscany. ( not sure if he is standing shoulder to shoulder though?) Pedant off...
Apologies, I'm sure Roger will spend his weekend raising money for the poor people in Monte Carlo.
This was not a conspiracy drummed up, as Corbyn claims, by “people concerned about Labour’s strength at a local level”, a Blairite plot or an MSM (mainstream media) hatchet job on a radical socialist programme. Nor even was Ken’s Nazi media tour a quixotic one-off. This grinding of Labour’s reputation into the filth live on TV was foretold, it was encoded in the Corbyn victory’s DNA. And across Britain, thousands of Labour supporters found no satisfaction in being proved right; only despair.
Our political home has been squatted in by careless, incompetent fools, too arrogant even to see what harm they do. “Racism is normally an attribute of the right,” said Jon Trickett, MP, a Corbyn ally, on Newsnight. Yes, the left are the good guys; no need for a party inquiry, to look into our souls. We are the righteous; ergo everything we do is right. You could see it in Livingstone as he stomped about on the Holocaust: I’m truth-telling here, you Jews are just having “feelings”.
There's some clever people on here, I'd like some help.
At school in the 70s I'm sure I was told 6m died in the camps, mainly jews but also, gypsies, political prisoners, POWs etc. This has now changed to 6m Jews.
In terms of horror the numbers are fairly irrelevant but I wonder if I'm mistaken or if history has been rewritten, was anybody else taught similar?
Around 6 million I was told plus many others
The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.[3] The victims included 1.5 million children[4] and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[5] Some definitions of the Holocaust include the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to about 11 million. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany and German-occupied territories.[6]
There's some clever people on here, I'd like some help.
At school in the 70s I'm sure I was told 6m died in the camps, mainly jews but also, gypsies, political prisoners, POWs etc. This has now changed to 6m Jews.
In terms of horror the numbers are fairly irrelevant but I wonder if I'm mistaken or if history has been rewritten, was anybody else taught similar?
6 million jews dying in the holocaust is an approximation. Reasonably accurate figures were kept by the nazis on the deaths in the extermination camps, but in addidion there were a lot of other deaths from starvation and disease in the Jewish ghettos and in less systematic pogroms by the nazis and their collaborators.
The deaths of other direct victims of the Nazis would be in addition. For example of the 3 million Soviet POWs taken in 1941 by the Nazis only 5% survived the war. Deaths of Polish Slavs, Ukranians, Belarussians were also in the millions.
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
Mr. Moses, just on the word, it was also used prior to 'The' Holocaust. In his biography/military history of Caesar, TA Dodge (writing circa 1900) used it about the massacre of half a million Germanian tribesmen [who were seeking a peaceful settlement at the time].
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
Hypocrisy.
What an excellent post.
And this is what makes me angry, there are millions of people who need representation, the Labour party was formed with the very best of intentions. However they have been taken over by arrogant, sneering, patronising virtue signallers.
If you want to disagree with anything MM has posted read Roger's posts, he's standing shoulder to shoulder with the underdog from his villa in Tuscany.
I understand that Roger is or was Jewish. The Jews have a saying when referring to certain Jews, which applies to any country they live in: In this case England: "They want to be more English than the English."
In Germany after WW1 there were many thousands of German Jewish families who thought of themselves as Germans first, second and last. They all went to the Gas, many still thinking that Hitler made a great mistake, and it was the lower ranked Nazis that were at fault.
So it's no wonder that many Jews are leaving Europe, mainly France, and are decamping to Israel as the spectre of revived anti-semitism rears it's ugly, evil head.
Roger is one who seems to despise his roots and has taken his left wing beliefs to extreme.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
The Israeli state does things that are difficult to justify but surely the first objective of any Israeli government is to keep its people safe.
The trouble with the Israel/Palestine situation - if you follow the intellectual path to its likely outcome - is that if the Americans removed their support, the Israelis slackened security and allowed Palestinians freedom of movement, the Jewish people would be slaughtered by Hamas terrorists.
I don't think it is conjecture to suggest this, it would very likely happen. And putting yourself in their position, that must be a scary way to live. It would certainly sharpen your views.
All around them people wish them harm So I can sympathise if the security measures are sometimes a bit heavy handed.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, and policies like the arrogant construction of new settlements on disputed territory inflame tensions, but I can't see how Israel can do anything other than remain top dog against the underdog, without facing massacre.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
They have courted the muslim vote in some of larger cities where there are concentrated muslim districts and where the anti israel\anti jewish sentiment is quite entrenched.
If they detoxify I can see a muslim first party a al Respect standing and carrying off the seats.
So they are then in the worst of both worlds - a large WWC vote fed up and moving to UKIP because of immigration and tomorrows muslim voters represented by someone else.
We have already had a few Christianity references and it probably has some relevance in the debate. I'm not an expert on the history of the Labour party but I am aware of the saying that the Labour party had more to do with Methodism than Marxism. If the Labour party has ever done any good in its time, it is much more likely to come from the former rather than the hate filled philosophy of the latter.
The Labour party today clearly has only a bastardised version of Christianity in its soul. For the most part it despises it. It's underlying philosophy is now the underdog mentality Roger describes and visceral anti-Americanism. One and the same thing in foreign affairs for a leftist. Lose the counterbalance of true empathy from Christianity, we are all sinners, and what you have is the self-righteousness to truly hate those you think are wrong. How ugly it is to observe.
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
Nice try Roger, but Ken is a nasty piece of work, He has form for dog-whistling, however he may seek to present himself.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
The Israeli state does things that are difficult to justify but surely the first objective of any Israeli government is to keep its people safe.
The trouble with the Israel/Palestine situation - if you follow the intellectual path to its likely outcome - is that if the Americans removed their support, the Israelis slackened security and allowed Palestinians freedom of movement, the Jewish people would be slaughtered by Hamas terrorists.
I don't think it is conjecture to suggest this, it would very likely happen. And putting yourself in their position, that must be a scary way to live. It would certainly sharpen your views.
All around them people wish them harm So I can sympathise if the security measures are sometimes a bit heavy handed.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, and policies like the arrogant construction of new settlements on disputed territory inflame tensions, but I can't see how Israel can do anything other than remain top dog against the underdog, without facing massacre.
Very depressing really.
And when a country the size of Iran says it wants to wipe a country the size of Israel off the map you can understand them getting the jitters.
The Labour mess reminds me of when my son was six. He accused me of being "naughty" because I disciplined him. "Daddies can't be naughty," I replied. He believed me.
That's Labours problem in a sentence, Roger. You can't ever be naughty because you see yourselves as being naturally the font of all wisdom and judgement. Therefore anyone who criticises must be wrong.
When you get to be eight or nine, you'll understand.
@Jake_Wilde: First line of Stop The War's statement on antisemitism: "Stop the War rejects and condemns..." Can you guess what? https://t.co/jwxzG4wRnr
When the main opposition political party on mainland Britain has to have a review, guidance and education on how PPCS have to behave concerning blatant racism, and that party is Labour (Labour ffs!), then the country truly is stuffed.
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
Nice try Roger, but Ken is a nasty piece of work, He has form for dog-whistling, however he may seek to present himself.
The Tory party is 'riddled with homosexuals" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16955851 Interesting choice of words. "riddled"?
The fuss about what he said about gays is ridiculous. In context, he obviously didn't mean "riddled" in a bad way, and looking at Livingstone's record, for all his other failings, he's not homophobic.
The comment about Jews being too rich to vote for him, that is much worse and more revealing of why he and parts of the Left have an antisemitism problem. A lot of the Left's outlook is so overwhelmingly class-based that their default view is that discrimination against any group who is wealthier (such as, stereotypically, people see Jewish people as being) is a contradiction in terms, so they handwave antisemitism away, in a way they wouldn't for typically poorer ethnic groups.
I don't think it's very smart of Zak to try to implicate Khan into this. If he's going to lose he would surely be better to try to preserve his integrity. John Humphrys is accusing him of "nod nod wink wink politics"............
"Boris Johnson said 'Piccanninis with water melon smiles.' Should you therefore dissociate yourself from Johnson?." Asked Humphrys.
That's the probem with this sort of thing. It's a game for any number of players
It is possible of course that he is just going senile. It is a much undermentioned problem for political parties that many leading politicians are so addicted to the limelight that they find it impossible to disappear once they are past their sell by date. But many supporters of the parties (and the media encourage this) continue to hang on their every word as "senior representatives of the party". It of course doesn't help that even the modern party leaderships exacerbate the problem by maintaining them in positions of influence rather than leave them to be talking heads at worst. Of course the Tories have the same problem, be it Heath, Thatcher, Heseltine... (in Thatcher's case she didn't even seek the limelight but that just gave her few claimed pronouncements even more weight)
JONATHAN..Total Bollox..If you have ambitions and aspirations the Labour is not the party for you..It needs its clientele to be impoverished and totally dependent on it..
Undefined discussion subject.
Comments
But there is another possible explanation, and that’s the belief found close to many leftwing hearts that they, and they alone, are the good guys – the champions of equality and fairness – and therefore incapable of prejudice. They don’t need to question their assumptions, or take a long hard look in the mirror, because the racists are the other guys.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/antisemitism-rocked-labour-self-belief
Roger demonstrated this to a T yesterday.
The John Mann petition is now nearing 13,000.
Top comment:
John Mann has brought the Labour Party into disrepute and slandered Ken. Ken is not antisemitic and it is ridiculous that he has been suspended. Mann is the only person I see acting like a Nazi.
Please put Mann up for deselection immediately so his constituents can get a good socialist to represent them.
https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-mp-disciplinary-procedure-for-john-mann-mp
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MHRYdL8Lw3L6OXiHnKZHi1vo6vUblQhuKg7FPDFuuQ0/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=184807879
He has written on it, "Looks like I've been prophylactically banned from PB."
Jeremy Corbyn has launched an independent inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour party amid pressure to expel Ken Livingstone.
The panel, led by former Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti, will offer guidance about anti-Semitism and other forms of racism - despite the Labour leader insisting yesterday there was 'no crisis'.
But on announcing the inquiry and a new 'code of conduct' Mr Corbyn said there was 'no place for anti-Semitism' in the party. Earlier today, Mr Livingstone again defiantly insisted he did nothing wrong by claiming that Hitler was a 'Zionist'.
He also signalled he will be using the writings of an obscure Marxist historian to justify his comments to an internal party disciplinary probe.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3565174/Jeremy-Corbyn-ordered-stay-away-Wales-party-anti-Semitism-row-threatens-tear-Labour-apart-week-elections.html
"Say what you like about Hitler, but there was a painter! He could finish a room in an afternoon. Two coats!"
Not to worry though? As long as we all understand that Ken is great and it was "Europeans that killed 6 million" heh?
Even the moderates like Johnson suffer from the delusion that Labour = good. I think Labour should be investigating the selection process for Shah. Given the seat she contested it is hard not to draw the conclusion that the Labour Party was happy to select a candidate with such views.
If Corbyn thinks there is no crisis, he's even stupider than he appears. But then he is also the man who shares platforms with Holocaust deniers...
Let's not forget anyone right of centre cannot use the words "bunch" or "swarm" without being labelled a racist. The problem is the the Labour Party spend more time accusing others of what they actually do more of themselves. They are so blinkered they just cannot see it yet, this week alone, despite trying to keep a lid on it the pus from the sore bursts forth for all to see. It's actually systemic because it goes to its very top to its very heart.
Ha Ha Ha , it is only the London right wing Tories that are wittering on about it , and maybe a few crackpots and paid dummies. If only the Tories had a policy in Scotland for anybody to even discuss.
This is a very good piece, but I think David misses the main reason for the hard left's blindness to/tolerance of anti-Semitism and various other deeply unpleasant beliefs: they will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes what they regard as "western imperialism". The hard left does not hate Israel because it is populated by Jews, but because it enjoys the full protection and support of the US. And the hard left will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who opposes Israel as a result. This is what Labour members voted to bring in from the fringe when they voted for Corbyn. And this is why many who are naturally on the centre left will never vote Labour while Corbyn and his crew are in charge.
http://labourlist.org/2015/03/naz-shah-selected-in-bradford-west/
A number of issues run together in a toxic brew here, including local "community leaders" in Bradford trying to install a candidate of their own, a favoured London based candidate being parachuted controversially into a winnable seat, and an all woman shortlist being imposed.
What we see is chaotic party management in the Milliband years coming to fruition. Fail to prepare - prepare to fail.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Who cares? Gosh I might even be friends with a Jew. I could even work with Jews in the office. Horror of horrors!! Message for Labour. I don't care. Labours problem is that Labour does care.
Stephen Pollard writes in the Telegraph......
"As a young boy, I used to think my grandma very strange. In her bedroom she kept a suitcase, packed and ready for use at a moment’s notice. “Just in case,” she’d tell me when I asked where it was that she was always waiting to go to. “You never know when they’ll turn on the Jews.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/the-lefts-hatred-of-jews-chills-me-to-the-bone/
It's poignant reading. Civilised people will be asking Labour to take note .....they won't of course, it's to entrenched.
I agree with Johnson in that Naz Shah made a fulsome apology rather than the mealy mouthed ones that we usually get from politicians, and genuinely seemed repentant of her remarks on Facebook. I think that she has genuinely changed her opinions. She is not from a political hot house of SPADery, and has a backstory that gives voice to oppressed muslim women.
If we want politicians, whether left or right, who are not just identikit clones of sharp suited PPE SPADS vetted to be free of any trace of controversy, then we have to be accepting of some odd remarks made in the past. If the politician is repentant and demonstrates that they have matured, then that is an excellent example to others.
Left wingers imagine themselves to be morally superior, so "can't be racist" is bang on, however her assertion that this belief has been rocked by Ken is wide of the mark.
Watch Jon Trickett on Newsnight a couple of days ago. He actually said "Racism is an attribute of the right"
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
"Fair enough"
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
Anyhoo....It's a lovely day and too nice to sit here and argue what is plain for any civilised person to see.
Got you. You're a troll who can't see racism when it's written in black and white because the left doesn't do racism. I thought you were better than that.
I note that Livinggstone is 71. When I was a lot younger and working I used to say that I would retire from full-time work at 65 and from part-time at 70 to avoid being labelled as I had seen others labelled; that poor old chap; used to be good once, but who has rather lost touch.
Not saying everyone over 70 is in that stage by any means, but there’s a risk.
"The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirety"
*Moral superiority mode off....
Well it's a view I suppose. Meanwhile Israel remains entirely surrounded by enemies that wish to eradicate it from the planet.
As for Littlejohn I can't stand him and have never defended him. I think Livingstone is more racist than Guido yes. Where has Guido said something similar about Hitler? Not that its a competition, there is racism on all sides and it should be confronted wherever it rears it's ugly head, not simply confront political opponents and ignore those on your own political side. That is partisanship nothing more.
Other comments were "I love my new tutor, even though she's a Jew" "LOL! Iran has nuclear weapons. Hope they'll wipe Israel off the map" "Hitler, he's my man.". "The power of the Jews in the US. It's disgusting" etc etc.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
Hypocrisy.
the other oft heard argument from the Left is that Israel is an artificial state that would collapse economically (and possibly militarily) if it wasn't propped up by the United States.
https://mobile.twitter.com/davidschneider/status/709746407373152257/photo/1
This is how dictatorships work. Nicola Sturgeon is in bad company.
What we are seeing is that many of those underdogs have triumphed over their oppressors and many of the original causes are mainstream. I would include feminism in this with a Old Etonian WASP PM actively denouncing the gender pay gap, environmentalism too, and gay marriage hardly controversial any more. This leads to the question that was the centre of Labours leadership contest last year "What is the purpose of Labour?"
Inevitably victory leads to the break up of such a rainbow coalition. It also puts some of the old school "social conservatives" outside mainstream politics. Hence both the rise of kipperdom and the restiveness of the Tory backwoodsmen.
For an outwardly conventional person, David Cameron has been paradoxically a real revolutionary in smashing the established order. Interesting times.
IIRC a significant number of European Jews have emigrated to Israel and elsewhere as a direct result of the rapidly expanding Muslim population/race attacks.
Roger standing "shoulder to shoulder with the underdog" on the highly dangerous kill zone of the rose laden terrace of his posh chateau in the south of France.
And this is what makes me angry, there are millions of people who need representation, the Labour party was formed with the very best of intentions. However they have been taken over by arrogant, sneering, patronising virtue signallers.
If you want to disagree with anything MM has posted read Roger's posts, he's standing shoulder to shoulder with the underdog from his villa in Tuscany.
At school in the 70s I'm sure I was told 6m died in the camps, mainly jews but also, gypsies, political prisoners, POWs etc. This has now changed to 6m Jews.
In terms of horror the numbers are fairly irrelevant but I wonder if I'm mistaken or if history has been rewritten, was anybody else taught similar?
What a fucking mess we're in. Perhaps there'll be Jew only drinking fountains in Bradford next.
Roger lives in a posh chateau in the South of France it's Tyson the other absolute leftie on here that has a posh villa in the sun drenched vineyards of Tuscany. ( not sure if he is standing shoulder to shoulder though?)
Pedant off...
I always thought that the Labour Party existed to fight for the rights of the worker. I appreciate that the world today is quite different to that of the past, but there is still very much a role for a left of centre party in today's world. But Labour have to work this out for themselves. Right now this country has a budget deficit of £75bn. At some point in the future things are going to get very tough in this country and Labour need to be clear in their mind how to respond when that time comes. As long as they are obsessed with identity politics then I'm afraid they will never be in government again.
Mr. 63, I think gay chaps also got sent to camps.
I think the six million Jews line is the one commonly taken simply because the vast majority of those sent there were Jewish.
The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.[3] The victims included 1.5 million children[4] and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[5] Some definitions of the Holocaust include the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to about 11 million. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany and German-occupied territories.[6]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Now definitely off out a classic car show beckons....
The deaths of other direct victims of the Nazis would be in addition. For example of the 3 million Soviet POWs taken in 1941 by the Nazis only 5% survived the war. Deaths of Polish Slavs, Ukranians, Belarussians were also in the millions.
For Soviet POW read here for example:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007183
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
In Germany after WW1 there were many thousands of German Jewish families who thought of themselves as Germans first, second and last. They all went to the Gas, many still thinking that Hitler made a great mistake, and it was the lower ranked Nazis that were at fault.
So it's no wonder that many Jews are leaving Europe, mainly France, and are decamping to Israel as the spectre of revived anti-semitism rears it's ugly, evil head.
Roger is one who seems to despise his roots and has taken his left wing beliefs to extreme.
The trouble with the Israel/Palestine situation - if you follow the intellectual path to its likely outcome - is that if the Americans removed their support, the Israelis slackened security and allowed Palestinians freedom of movement, the Jewish people would be slaughtered by Hamas terrorists.
I don't think it is conjecture to suggest this, it would very likely happen. And putting yourself in their position, that must be a scary way to live. It would certainly sharpen your views.
All around them people wish them harm So I can sympathise if the security measures are sometimes a bit heavy handed.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, and policies like the arrogant construction of new settlements on disputed territory inflame tensions, but I can't see how Israel can do anything other than remain top dog against the underdog, without facing massacre.
Very depressing really.
They have courted the muslim vote in some of larger cities where there are concentrated muslim districts and where the anti israel\anti jewish sentiment is quite entrenched.
If they detoxify I can see a muslim first party a al Respect standing and carrying off the seats.
So they are then in the worst of both worlds - a large WWC vote fed up and moving to UKIP because of immigration and tomorrows muslim voters represented by someone else.
The Labour party today clearly has only a bastardised version of Christianity in its soul. For the most part it despises it. It's underlying philosophy is now the underdog mentality Roger describes and visceral anti-Americanism. One and the same thing in foreign affairs for a leftist. Lose the counterbalance of true empathy from Christianity, we are all sinners, and what you have is the self-righteousness to truly hate those you think are wrong. How ugly it is to observe.
"Jews won;t vote for me because they're rich"
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/03/21/ken-livingstone-jews-wont-vote-for-me-because-they-are-rich/
The Tory party is 'riddled with homosexuals"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16955851
Interesting choice of words. "riddled"?
Livingstone never misses a trick to be crass http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ken-livingstone-uses-rape-comparison-7864629
Thank God I'm an atheist.
The Labour mess reminds me of when my son was six. He accused me of being "naughty" because I disciplined him. "Daddies can't be naughty," I replied. He believed me.
That's Labours problem in a sentence, Roger. You can't ever be naughty because you see yourselves as being naturally the font of all wisdom and judgement. Therefore anyone who criticises must be wrong.
When you get to be eight or nine, you'll understand.
"Stop the War rejects and condemns..."
Can you guess what?
https://t.co/jwxzG4wRnr
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
The comment about Jews being too rich to vote for him, that is much worse and more revealing of why he and parts of the Left have an antisemitism problem. A lot of the Left's outlook is so overwhelmingly class-based that their default view is that discrimination against any group who is wealthier (such as, stereotypically, people see Jewish people as being) is a contradiction in terms, so they handwave antisemitism away, in a way they wouldn't for typically poorer ethnic groups.
"Boris Johnson said 'Piccanninis with water melon smiles.' Should you therefore dissociate yourself from Johnson?." Asked Humphrys.
That's the probem with this sort of thing. It's a game for any number of players