Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Roger on a step change in negative political advertising

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Roger on a step change in negative political advertising

Exactly six weeks ago in my first header on the campaign from an advertising perspective I wrote “The advantages of a negative campaign by REMAIN are obvious, the unknown can be made to seem a scary place. By contrast for the LEAVERS dystopian visions are a difficult sell when the EU has been with us for 40 years.”

Read the full story here


«13456789

Comments

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,599
    edited June 2016
    If national campaigning is suspended, does that mean no leafleting, no canvassing, no anything by anyone? I don't want to drop a bollock over the weekend.

    Oh, and first.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195

    If national campaigning is suspended, does that mean no leafleting, no canvassing, no anything by anyone? I don't want to drop a bollock over the weekend.

    Likewise. We'll know more later this afternoon I am hoping. I suspect Cam will say all campaigning suspended for the weekend in the next 30 mins. we'll see.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195
    The mail man ploughs on though - got a Remain leaflet by post this morning.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Curse of the new thread. FPT.

    Might I posit that most people do not possess any expertise or familiarity with Nazi propaganda? The only wartime propaganda I recall seeing in any books was either British or Soviet (mainly because British propaganda is still quite funny, and Soviet propaganda is ART). I'm writing as a WW2 buff.

    I asked my 23 year old daughter what she thought. She didn't get any reference to anything. She just said 'I don't get it'. Which in its own way means that Farage has failed.

    I mentioned the other day that the next GE will have voters who were born after 9/11. Symbols that might resonate with us mean nothing to them. They're children of the 21st century.

    Nazis? The British Empire? Saatchi & Saatchi? Wut?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195
    Cam and Jezz about to speak in Birstall.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Cammo and Jezzer laying wreaths on a statue of Joseph Priestley...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    The polls have CERTAINLY turned as Roger has said. Whether they're correct or not is another matter entirely..
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    David Steel as David Owen’s puppet was pretty effective. Sadly.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT

    Pretty sure this Scottish Tory Unionist will be turning out to vote Remain.

    https://twitter.com/claudiamassie/status/743762135109361666

    A pretty telling endorsement about SIndyRef2: Ref Harder given that back in the 90's Allan Massie predicted that setting up a devolved parliament in Scotland would inevitably lead to the UK falling into a Balkans style civil war.

    Good rugby writer, pretty cack on the politics.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.
  • Options
    Who can argue with Roger on this? Perfectly rational and well informed view.

    But and there is a but. We have the mainly inhouse messaging and work of VoteLEAVE with (I believe) Canadian work VS the professionals hired by REMAIN. And look at who is winning.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Parliament recalled on Monday.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    FPT:

    Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. Democracy makes we the people sovereign, not our MPs. While this event is clearly a tragedy, the personal feelings of our elected representatives is not as important as the referendum which will take place next Thursday. Nobody should be forced to campaign if they do not wish to, but it is totally wrong to force that suspension on others for an extended period. It reveals yet again the narcissism of our political classes that the loss of one of their own, however tragic, should outweigh the magnitude of next week's vote.

    The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,195
    Joint event is a little odd, as the media seem to be asking questions, rather than a joint statement.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,273
    edited June 2016
    Recall of Parliament on Monday - expect campaign to restart sometime after the weekend
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    I said then they should change it to the one they have now.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Pulpstar said:

    The polls have CERTAINLY turned as Roger has said. Whether they're correct or not is another matter entirely..

    They had turned, whether they have turned a little bit back after yesterday we will discover in the next few days
  • Options
    NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454
    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"
  • Options

    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.

    Maybe. Except that Matthew Elliott used an NHS message in the AV campaign. If I recall it was along lines of Cost of AV vs NHS money ..... He won that referendum as well, overturning a massive lead of Yes2AV. This is his 3rd referendum and he is 2-0.
  • Options
    NoEasyDay said:

    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"

    Martin Luther King
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,262
    NoEasyDay said:

    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"

    Martin Luther King.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    Interesting post, Roger. I missed the bit where Leave linked Turkey and £350 million to ‘pubic services’.

    Sleazier than I thought.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    It has been a unique campaign and one that will be much studied I suspect (especially were Leave to actually win - I still think Remain will pip them). As Roger says how on earth have the massed ranks of the great and the good, the status quo, the full machinery of the Civil Service and "the economy stupid", got themselves from a commanding lead into such a pickle with 6 days to go against a campaign that was only selected as the official campaign (from two other possibilities?) only a few weeks ago? I have my views some will agree with me some will not, but it is a quite amazing state of affairs.

    How repeatable the "lessons" are I don't know. Is it the Leicester City of the political world - just a one off you cannot legislate for?
  • Options
    EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    I can't be arsed with any of this at the moment.

    Will try and pull back some political mojo tomorrow
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    RodCrosby said:

    Parliament recalled on Monday.

    FFS
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    That's the essence of why I stopped reading Twitter. The number of political commentators who know a great deal better couldn't resist the temptation. Tim Shipman and Iain Martin were almost lone voices in the din.

    Brendan O'Neill was spot on. As usual.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    NoEasyDay said:

    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"

    I'm sorry to use NoEasyDay as an example, but I think it might (weakly) reinforce my point. Martin Luther King is very real to me. Less so to succeeding generations. Of course, it may be that it's simply a relatively uncommon acronym that's caused the confusion.
  • Options
    NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454

    NoEasyDay said:

    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"

    Martin Luther King.
    O of course, thanks Sunil.

    Memo to self "liquid lunches are no good for the memory."
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    'Pubic' typo for public
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    Interesting post, Roger. I missed the bit where Leave linked Turkey and £350 million to ‘pubic services’.
    Sleazier than I thought.

    chortle - a brief smile on a day like this.
  • Options
    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT:

    Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. .

    clearly one side or the other perceives advantage, and the side that opposed it would look bad.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    welshowl said:

    It has been a unique campaign and one that will be much studied I suspect (especially were Leave to actually win - I still think Remain will pip them). As Roger says how on earth have the massed ranks of the great and the good, the status quo, the full machinery of the Civil Service and "the economy stupid", got themselves from a commanding lead into such a pickle with 6 days to go against a campaign that was only selected as the official campaign (from two other possibilities?) only a few weeks ago? I have my views some will agree with me some will not, but it is a quite amazing state of affairs.

    How repeatable the "lessons" are I don't know. Is it the Leicester City of the political world - just a one off you cannot legislate for?

    Referenda are rare, and they're even more brutal than our normal FPTP system. One thing I'll confidently predict; we won't be having any more. The establishment have had an enormous fright. Enjoy it. It's your last.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Recall of Parliament on Monday - expect campaign to restart sometime after the weekend

    I understand the sensitivities but is that not overkill? Five days of no campaigning, leaving only two days left before the referendum.

    What of Cameron's set piece Question Time tomorrow?

    Surely the sensible thing would have been for the campaigning to resume tomorrow, after a 48 hour pause, with the language of the last few weeks turned down somewhat as a mark of respect for the fallen MP.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT:

    Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. Democracy makes we the people sovereign, not our MPs. While this event is clearly a tragedy, the personal feelings of our elected representatives is not as important as the referendum which will take place next Thursday. Nobody should be forced to campaign if they do not wish to, but it is totally wrong to force that suspension on others for an extended period. It reveals yet again the narcissism of our political classes that the loss of one of their own, however tragic, should outweigh the magnitude of next week's vote.

    The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.

    Ditto.
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited June 2016
    Old London @GreatestCapital
    Practical joke idea..everyone dress in ape costumes when Tim Peak returns from the Space Station tomorrow :)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,262
    PlatoSaid said:
    I don't wear Hugo Boss, unfortunately :lol:
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    Wink wink

    Jim Pickard‏ @PickardJE
    David Cameron: "Where we see hatred, where we see division, where we see intolerance we must drive it out of our public life and politics."
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Unemployment is, generally down, isn’t it. Somewhere near the levels we saw in the 60’s, when to a large extent it was people between jobs.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    UKIP aren't contesting the by-election.

    https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/743789659222867968
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited June 2016
    PlatoSaid said:
    Maybe claim that it is anti-muslim?
    :innocent:
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,314
    I'm in serious danger of losing my temper here.

    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.

    Maybe. Except that Matthew Elliott used an NHS message in the AV campaign. If I recall it was along lines of Cost of AV vs NHS money ..... He won that referendum as well, overturning a massive lead of Yes2AV. This is his 3rd referendum and he is 2-0.
    Cameron is also 2-0 on his referendums and he is opposing Elliott now
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Wink wink

    Jim Pickard‏ @PickardJE
    David Cameron: "Where we see hatred, where we see division, where we see intolerance we must drive it out of our public life and politics."

    I'm happy with the hatred and intolerance bit, but division? Really?
  • Options
    This referendum, like Sindyref, is playing out as a Head vs Heart affair. Elections are usually won by the Heart, as people feel a positive/negative emotion towards the outcome. Ed Miliband lost because he generates such strongly negative personal emotions (it absolutely wasn't 'we all love Dave'!). Sindy was, however, a win for Head - because the Head case was unassailable and the Heart case was very far from universally felt. This time round Remain are all Head - there is not now and never will be a strongly positive Heart case for the EU. So for Vote Leave to go strongly on Heart- a negative, visceral, emotive play about the real and extant problems our membership gives - is a no-brainer. As both sides try to go nuclear in the last few days I'm expecting some very strong stuff from both sides - money meltdown scaremongering from Remain and societal meltdown scaremongering from Leave.
  • Options
    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Oddly I don't thing opinion has changed, I think the polls did. Leave made racism respectable and their supporters came out of the closet.
  • Options
    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT:
    Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. ..............
    The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.

    Agreed.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,804

    UKIP aren't contesting the by-election.

    https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/743789659222867968

    That's good.
  • Options
    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    It looks like they have left John Bercow behind at Birstall. He was too busy talking to Michael Crick and didn't realise they had left!!
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    UKIP aren't contesting the by-election.

    https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/743789659222867968

    The Lib Dems might keep their deposit.

    [Joke]
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,273
    Sandpit said:

    Recall of Parliament on Monday - expect campaign to restart sometime after the weekend

    I understand the sensitivities but is that not overkill? Five days of no campaigning, leaving only two days left before the referendum.

    What of Cameron's set piece Question Time tomorrow?

    Surely the sensible thing would have been for the campaigning to resume tomorrow, after a 48 hour pause, with the language of the last few weeks turned down somewhat as a mark of respect for the fallen MP.
    I really have no idea how the media balance these matters and indeed who restarts the campaigns. It is a unique situation but clearly some debates may not happen and the campaigns themselves would need to be careful to take into account the sensitive nature we now find ourselves in
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Wink wink

    Jim Pickard‏ @PickardJE
    David Cameron: "Where we see hatred, where we see division, where we see intolerance we must drive it out of our public life and politics."

    Cameron will say and do anything to win the referendum. Even if it means exploiting the horrible tragedy yesterday.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,262
    I know she must have been obviously popular in West Yorkshire, and the Parliamentary Labour Party, but I honestly had not heard of Jo Cox prior to yesterday's awful and tragic events.

    I don't even recall seeing her being elected televised on Election Night, unless others remember otherwise?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    O/T, at 2pm. A comment on the weather. The T20 (or whatever it’s called nowadays) game at Leicester, due to start at 6.30 this evening has already been abandoned!
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    The irony of your made up poster and the Farage xenophobic effort is that they are copying the 1979 poster that helped elect a Conservative government that put up unemployment to more than 3 times the level that it had been under Labour .
  • Options
    NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454
    Fenman said:

    Oddly I don't thing opinion has changed, I think the polls did. Leave made racism respectable and their supporters came out of the closet.

    On thing that has made this so difficult for remain is the urge to racist at anyone who doubts the benefits of staying in. Insulting people does not change peoples minds.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.

    Maybe. Except that Matthew Elliott used an NHS message in the AV campaign. If I recall it was along lines of Cost of AV vs NHS money ..... He won that referendum as well, overturning a massive lead of Yes2AV. This is his 3rd referendum and he is 2-0.
    Cameron is also 2-0 on his referendums and he is opposing Elliott now
    Good point. The northern referendum was not Cameron's and the Scots one was not Matthew Elliott AFAIK.
  • Options
    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.

    Looking at the infamous UKIP poster at the top of post (I'm not a fan, to put it mildly, and I'm not sure whether it will "work", in the sense of attracting more votes than it repels) I am reminded that the Tories were, apparently, aware of the power of the visuals.

    I'm sure one factor in holding the referendum in such a tight time-frame was to avoid having the next bout of the migrant crisis all over the news channels. Odd, in a way, since so few of them actually reach Britain (this, and the fact the picture clearly shows desperate people escaping a desperate situation, is largely why I feel the UKIP poster is so wrong-headed) but there was clearly a fear voters would associate the optics with the risks of a remain vote.

    Perhaps it was a strategic mistake - may well not be such a dramatic crisis this year, or even if there is it might be "last year's moral outrage" and get reduced coverage, and the short renegotiation period may not have worked in his favout. My window cleaner today remarked, with no prompting to talk about politics whatsoever, that it was "the big vote" next week and he didn't understand why there'd been such a rush to get the referendum so soon, as any really deep reforms would surely need extensive more extensive negotiations. (He was also visibly upset by the murder of Jo Cox - but which didn't seem to change his determination to vote leave, on all the stereotypical grounds which he ticked off unprompted like a checklist: "it's meant to be a trade area, but that's not what it's about now", "we're in a club where we don't really believe the main principles of the club", "it's not all about immigration - but it brings a lot of pressures, especially for housing" and "I'm patriotic and hate it when they say we can't survive on our own - we survived for hundreds of years before, we can cope now").

    Sample size of one, of course, but I do find it refreshing and healthy that - despite all the heat and so little light of the campaigns - people who don't normally think about politics, are taking it to heart.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited June 2016
    GIN1138 said:

    UKIP aren't contesting the by-election.

    https://twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/743789659222867968

    That's good.
    So it's Labour versus the Loonies, I guess...
  • Options

    It looks like they have left John Bercow behind at Birstall. He was too busy talking to Michael Crick and didn't realise they had left!!

    They should have asked him to keep standing up.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    FPT:

    By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,262

    The irony of your made up poster and the Farage xenophobic effort is that they are copying the 1979 poster that helped elect a Conservative government that put up unemployment to more than 3 times the level that it had been under Labour .
    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/736183859138695168
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.

    Maybe. Except that Matthew Elliott used an NHS message in the AV campaign. If I recall it was along lines of Cost of AV vs NHS money ..... He won that referendum as well, overturning a massive lead of Yes2AV. This is his 3rd referendum and he is 2-0.
    Cameron is also 2-0 on his referendums and he is opposing Elliott now
    Good point. The northern referendum was not Cameron's and the Scots one was not Matthew Elliott AFAIK.
    Indeed, this is the decider for both though in terms of referendums' record
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    NoEasyDay said:

    Fenman said:

    Oddly I don't thing opinion has changed, I think the polls did. Leave made racism respectable and their supporters came out of the closet.

    On thing that has made this so difficult for remain is the urge to racist at anyone who doubts the benefits of staying in. Insulting people does not change peoples minds.
    Isn't it in chapter 9 3/4 of 'How to win friends and influence people'? It should be as it is used an awful lot - especially in the Guardian.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Wink wink

    Jim Pickard‏ @PickardJE
    David Cameron: "Where we see hatred, where we see division, where we see intolerance we must drive it out of our public life and politics."

    Jesus - I know you're completely obsessed about the referendum but please stop.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    MP_SE said:

    Wink wink

    Jim Pickard‏ @PickardJE
    David Cameron: "Where we see hatred, where we see division, where we see intolerance we must drive it out of our public life and politics."

    Cameron will say and do anything to win the referendum. Even if it means exploiting the horrible tragedy yesterday.
    Where we see division ? You mean the division in the Tory party you have caused, on your bike then Dave.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Old London @GreatestCapital
    Practical joke idea..everyone dress in ape costumes when Tim Peak returns from the Space Station tomorrow :)

    That raises a big smile on an otherwise sombre day :D
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited June 2016

    The irony of your made up poster and the Farage xenophobic effort is that they are copying the 1979 poster that helped elect a Conservative government that put up unemployment to more than 3 times the level that it had been under Labour .
    AFAIK it went from circa 6% to a peak of 12% and then fell rapidly.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    John_M said:

    NoEasyDay said:

    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"

    I'm sorry to use NoEasyDay as an example, but I think it might (weakly) reinforce my point. Martin Luther King is very real to me. Less so to succeeding generations. Of course, it may be that it's simply a relatively uncommon acronym that's caused the confusion.
    It's the Eddie Izzard effect. He's of no relevance to the yoof vote he's seeking to engage.

    Once your own era has surpassed your democraphic target audience, it's a cut-through fail.

    MLK means nothing to me bar PBS documentaries. The Winter of Discontent feels very real. The Cuban Missile crisis is history - whilst CND was huge in my younger days. I picked up stories about WW2 from my grandparents/parents re evacuees and rationing.

    We all have a timeframe we use to judge things by. Some folk fail to realise this.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    I know she must have been obviously popular in West Yorkshire, and the Parliamentary Labour Party, but I honestly had not heard of Jo Cox prior to yesterday's awful and tragic events.

    I don't even recall seeing her being elected televised on Election Night, unless others remember otherwise?

    As a first-time entrant in a northern seat, it was hardly going to be leading the coverage - however everything I have heard said suggests that she was a person very committed to helping others and had all the hallmarks of having a successful Parliamentary Career. RIP.
  • Options
    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.

    That's because it's the easiest/laziest thing to do.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    For someone who was hardly known outside the commons chamber, the Remainians are now trying to Dianafy Jo Cox, and present her as a saint that all must bow down to.

    To some degree they are succeeding, egged on by those Remain stalwarts on the BBC and Sky News; together with the Tory and Labour elite.

    I wonder if all the people murdered this week in the UK will also be remembered and diefied, I bet not.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,273
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.

    It does seem like it. It may not change the result but I am sure many will think more deeply before casting their votes. The betting, stock, and currency markets are at present indicating the rising likelihood of a remain win
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Old London @GreatestCapital
    Practical joke idea..everyone dress in ape costumes when Tim Peak returns from the Space Station tomorrow :)

    :lol:
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Just how bad are Remain's numbers ?

    If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.

    Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    felix said:

    Wink wink

    Jim Pickard‏ @PickardJE
    David Cameron: "Where we see hatred, where we see division, where we see intolerance we must drive it out of our public life and politics."

    Jesus - I know you're completely obsessed about the referendum but please stop.
    Has it been revealed exactly what motivated the killer? If not, Cameron should not have made such remarks.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT:
    Sorry to be harsh, but suspending the campaigns until Monday (or later) is totally inappropriate. ..............
    The best tribute to Jo Cox MP would be to carry on leafleting, canvassing and arguing until 10pm on Thursday 23 June. We must not allow the functioning of our electoral system to be changed by the actions of terrorists or lunatics.

    Agreed.
    Agreed.
  • Options
    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    forgive me for being suspicious but how did those receipts for far right publications from 1999 and ten years ago plus also a photo of the attacker at a rally with Farage find its way onto the internet within 6 - 9 hours of the event, seems improbable and suspect. Is someone fabricating evidence for political purposes, not that i want to be tin hat or anything
  • Options
    NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454
    PlatoSaid said:

    John_M said:

    NoEasyDay said:

    “Free at last. Free at last. Thank God almighty we’re free at last.” I wonder whether the world will feel as admiring of his campaign as they did MLK’s.

    Who or what is "MLK"

    I'm sorry to use NoEasyDay as an example, but I think it might (weakly) reinforce my point. Martin Luther King is very real to me. Less so to succeeding generations. Of course, it may be that it's simply a relatively uncommon acronym that's caused the confusion.
    It's the Eddie Izzard effect. He's of no relevance to the yoof vote he's seeking to engage.

    Once your own era has surpassed your democraphic target audience, it's a cut-through fail.

    MLK means nothing to me bar PBS documentaries. The Winter of Discontent feels very real. The Cuban Missile crisis is history - whilst CND was huge in my younger days. I picked up stories about WW2 from my grandparents/parents re evacuees and rationing.

    We all have a timeframe we use to judge things by. Some folk fail to realise this.
    Its nice of you to think I'm "yoof" but actually I am 54. i was just being a bit thick really.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    I think it's a case of the dog that didn't bark. Immigration is a top three or four issues for voters - unlike the EU itself - so it's not surprising they linked the two. What was surprising is that Remain's Big Bertha onslaughts on the economic dangers appear to have had no effect at all.

    The effect of the advertising, I guess, is that the lies cut through the exaggerations.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Five day of campaigning gone to mourn a novice backbench MP that most people have never heard of is a ludicrous over reaction.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    As John Rentoul has just pointed out, this is the first time that a sitting MP has been murdered since 1812 (excluding victims of Irish republican attacks). This is a very big deal indeed.

    Every now and then we need to get a bit of perspective. On this occasion, the perspective shows us that something very different and quite horrible has happened within our democratic system. The risk is not of making too much of this but of making too little. We should all be reflecting very carefully indeed about what this means for our democratic processes.
  • Options
    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    I'm not sure i can tell the difference between negative reactions to the "Breaking Point" poster and the same long term hand wringing liberalism which swept discussion of race, xenophobia and migration under the carpet without once addressing the root underlying causes.

    The average WWC voter this poster is aimed at is unlikely to be following twitter or to understand any linkage to Nazi propaganda images. They might see it in their newspaper or get an email from a friend. Or not see it at all and go out to vote leave because, as said, their underlying racism or xenophobia or genuine concerns about migration have never been addressed because they were deliberately kept off the agenda.
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    The irony of your made up poster and the Farage xenophobic effort is that they are copying the 1979 poster that helped elect a Conservative government that put up unemployment to more than 3 times the level that it had been under Labour .
    AFAIK it went from circa 6% to a peak of 12% and then fell rapidly.
    Plus all those urged to declare themselves unfit to work and claim disability benefits to reduce the official unemployment figures . In 1992 the official unemployment rate was still 10%
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited June 2016
    "The real Brexit political battle comes down to a stark choice that is painful and divisive, as it is at root about identity. Identity is personal, unspoken, confusing and just difficult for all of us:
    Will a UK identity outside the EU be outward-looking and positive/inclusivist, or introspectively negative/exclusivist?
    Will a UK inside the EU prosper as a free country, or see its identity diminished and diluted towards irrelevance? Who and what, really, are we?"
    https://twitter.com/CharlesCrawford
    charlescrawford.biz/2016/06/17/jo-cox-and-binary-politics/ …
  • Options
    KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    edited June 2016

    I know she must have been obviously popular in West Yorkshire, and the Parliamentary Labour Party, but I honestly had not heard of Jo Cox prior to yesterday's awful and tragic events.

    I don't even recall seeing her being elected televised on Election Night, unless others remember otherwise?

    The modern fetish for grief is now in full swing. Campaigns suspended; by election not contested (so no by election); talk of recalling parliament; people professing personal grief for a person they've never met and never even heard of until yesterday afternoon.

    The appropriate response to extremists and lunatics who want to disrupt democracy is to have more democracy: there should be a by-election campaign in Batley in the spirit of the democractic values and debate Jo Cox seemingly worked so hard to uphold.

    What happened yesterday is very, very sad. The competitive grieving for it is unseemly.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    TudorRose said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.

    That's because it's the easiest/laziest thing to do.
    Also because the media has an institutionalised left-wing bias - most journalists are left-wing.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936

    Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.

    Can't disagree with that. I am sorry to say I have been proved wrong about the immigration issue. Of course I am pleased that Leave have a chance of winning but I am not happy with the way it has been achieved or what it will mean for politics afterwards. Out of respect I won't repeat my normal mantra about politicians but I certainly don't see my view of them improving after this campaign.

    Is there no way that Leave can still win but both campaigns lose?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,273
    kjohnw said:

    forgive me for being suspicious but how did those receipts for far right publications from 1999 and ten years ago plus also a photo of the attacker at a rally with Farage find its way onto the internet within 6 - 9 hours of the event, seems improbable and suspect. Is someone fabricating evidence for political purposes, not that i want to be tin hat or anything

    I am not sure the link to the far right is as important as Jo Cox's own desire to campaign for the UK to stay in the EU. I believe it will have some beneficial effect for remain but the danger for leave is now Farage and overplaying immigration, they need to be careful as I suspect the broadcast media will be very unsympathetic on this subject
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    As John Rentoul has just pointed out, this is the first time that a sitting MP has been murdered since 1812 (excluding victims of Irish republican attacks). This is a very big deal indeed.

    Every now and then we need to get a bit of perspective. On this occasion, the perspective shows us that something very different and quite horrible has happened within our democratic system. The risk is not of making too much of this but of making too little. We should all be reflecting very carefully indeed about what this means for our democratic processes.

    The best way to fight an attack on democracy is more democracy, not to bring it to a halt.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    glw said:

    Five day of campaigning gone to mourn a novice backbench MP that most people have never heard of is a ludicrous over reaction.

    The campaign resumes tomorrow, does it not? In any case, murder of an MP not matter how novice or if they are on the backbenches or not, warrants a brief pause.
  • Options
    TimTim Posts: 44
    To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)

    I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,262
    edited June 2016

    As John Rentoul has just pointed out, this is the first time that a sitting MP has been murdered since 1812 (excluding victims of Irish republican attacks).

    Why the qualifier?

    Ian Gow was murdered by the IRA in 1990.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated

  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    Sandpit said:

    Recall of Parliament on Monday - expect campaign to restart sometime after the weekend

    I understand the sensitivities but is that not overkill? Five days of no campaigning, leaving only two days left before the referendum.

    What of Cameron's set piece Question Time tomorrow?

    Surely the sensible thing would have been for the campaigning to resume tomorrow, after a 48 hour pause, with the language of the last few weeks turned down somewhat as a mark of respect for the fallen MP.
    Agreed, it seems excessive. A period of no campaigning time was required but equally important for this to not overshadow the final stages of the referendum. The recall of parliament is fine, but campaigning shouldn't stop all weekend too.
  • Options
    NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454

    As John Rentoul has just pointed out, this is the first time that a sitting MP has been murdered since 1812 (excluding victims of Irish republican attacks). This is a very big deal indeed.

    Every now and then we need to get a bit of perspective. On this occasion, the perspective shows us that something very different and quite horrible has happened within our democratic system. The risk is not of making too much of this but of making too little. We should all be reflecting very carefully indeed about what this means for our democratic processes.

    Utter nonsense. Its nothing do to with our democratic system. Its a failure perhaps with security, perhaps with mental health. but democratic system .....utter tripe.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,228
    Excellent thread header again Roger. You really are on a roll.

    I still think Remain will edge this, especially after yesterday, but for me the point when this changed was the publication of the latest immigration figures and the realisation that Osborne's higher growth was built on the premise this was going to go on forever. For me that is when Remain lost the status quo vote and remain stopped looking like the safe option. Has the mood changed again? I don't know. It feels close, very close.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    If we're having a recall of arliament, this seems a good idea to make it look more meaningful than just a series of tributes:

    [Guardian] Tory MP Jason McCartney tells us he wants parliament recalled, with MPs from all parties mixing and sitting together on both sides of house.

    Personally I'm in the carry on regardless camp, but I think we should respect those who honestly disagree and want to wait a few days. Back in 1995, I was the Labour candidate for E Sussex and S Kent in the European Parliament elections, and we had one big fund-raiser with Denis Healey as key speaker. Then John Smith died. I suggested that we strart the meeting with a minute's silence, but Denis told the party that he couldn't bear speaking so soon after his friend's death, and the party decided to cancel it.

    I grumbled that this wasn't what John would have wanted and it meant that the campaign would be hugely underfunded. 24 hours later, a large anonymous donation came through, and a few days later another. Both, I gathered were from Denis, but he didn't want to be thanked. Nice man. BUt I still think that carrying on would have been OK.

    That said. we probably overestimate the importance of campaigning anyway, and a few days' pause for thought may not be a bad thing.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
This discussion has been closed.