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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boost for Farage in the Ipsos satisfaction ratings on the d

SystemSystem Posts: 11,003
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boost for Farage in the Ipsos satisfaction ratings on the day before the big vote

And Corbyn drops to new low with LAB voters

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,243
    Fun times.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,895
    I think Corbyn has come out very well from the EU Referendum campaign, he's clearly quite torn over his final decision and I can sympathise with that.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    edited June 2016
    Second like remain.

    Darn. Third like DK.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited June 2016
    Sheesh

    Farage ahead of Dave ? !

    I must be turning into a metropolitan type, I wouldnt agree with that.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Horrible ratings for Dave among Tory voters. The rating among members will be even worse.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Cameron really has had an awful war. He could have been leading Leave to a 70:30 win. Muppet.

    And Farage not taking a knock for THAT poster? But getting an uptick instead? Maybe it did its job after all...

    What a weird campaign this has been. Thank God it's nearly over.

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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited June 2016
    Farage gets the best headline rating, but important to note that he and JC have declined, whereas satisfaction with DC has increased (despite fall amongst Tories!!).
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    Be funny if we vote leave then its England v Wales in the Euro cup final
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Sheesh

    Farage ahead of Dave ? !

    I must be turning into a metropolitan type, I wouldnt agree with that.

    Been like that for weeks, Mr Brooke, nobody on here likes to acknowledge the fact though.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    I thought Nigels speech today was very robust, balanced and made the point which has not been debated as much in this referendum with the focus just being on economy and immigration, that the EU was mis-sold as a trading block but is really a project to create one state called Europe with one flag, one anthem, one army, one president, one currency, one set of laws, one people and little democracy. We have to choose which flag we want over us
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    El_DaveEl_Dave Posts: 145
    edited June 2016



    And Farage not taking a knock for THAT poster? But getting an uptick instead? Maybe it did its job after all...

    He gets billed as a rabid dog. Not hard to over perform when the build up is so overblown.
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    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    edited June 2016
    I keep seeing people say that Sunderland will indicate the vote is really close if it is 52/48 to Leave but what is this based on? Surely Sunderland is going to be much more No biased than the average even despite the car plant?

    Interestingly, I think Scotland's result will be known before 2am. It was in the Independence Referendum. Clackmannanshire voted 54% to 46% No, which was very close to the actual result and came in at 1.30am. Clacks is a very good microcosm of Scotland and whatever the vote is there at 1.30am it will be very close to the Scottish result at the end of the count.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    The British public have been outrageously lied to on Turkey accession.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    Looks like Turkey will be Remain's biggest lie then....
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    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    i thought they weren't joining until the year 3000 :)
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    Just to be safe maybe we should kick out any Turks already here - I can think of one for starters :)
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    El_DaveEl_Dave Posts: 145
    MaxPB said:

    Horrible ratings for Dave among Tory voters. The rating among members will be even worse.

    Unless Remain win BIG, I'm expecting Cameron and Osborne to be kicked out ASAP.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,577
    Labour voters on both sides of the referendum divide not happy with Jezza's half-in position?
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited June 2016

    Be funny if we vote leave then its England v Wales in the Euro cup final

    That would be PERFECT. Although I didn't know UEFA was part of the EU. Thanks for pointing that out ;)
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    edited June 2016
    felix said:

    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.

    Exactly. The best question Farage never answered is why, if the Europeans are so nasty and unhelpful towards us when we are inside the EU (ignoring our interests, taking our money, outvoting us countless times etc.), they should suddenly turn all friendly and helpful and give us this dream 'all-trade no-conditions' deal, once we have decided to flounce out?
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    GravitationGravitation Posts: 281



    And Farage not taking a knock for THAT poster? But getting an uptick instead? Maybe it did its job after all...


    Indeed. The people who have been getting so worked up over it are not the people it was aimed at and have only given it a huge amount of publicity.
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    edited June 2016
    Having said I'd sit the referendum out, I've actually been delivering leaflets across my ward for the past few days. Nothing from the official campaign - but a leaflet from our MEP talking about their work, and what they are achieving through the EU. It hardly mentions the referendum but people have said it was refreshing and informative compared to the shouting of the campaigns. We'll have to see.

    One thing I have noticed, lots of LEAVE posters on major road junctions, at the side of A roads etc, but several small remain posters on the houses in my ward, in some areas where I wouldn't expect. Leave clearly more visible, but road junctions don't vote as often as people in my experience. No idea if it's anything more than a straw in the wind.

    Almost at the stage where whichever side wins, I want them to win well - so there's no suggestion that we'll have a rerun any time soon.
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    edited June 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    I think Corbyn has come out very well from the EU Referendum campaign, he's clearly quite torn over his final decision and I can sympathise with that.

    He's been good (his position on the EU is much better than other left wing people shouting about how great and perfect the EU is) but TTIP and privatisation of the railways are issues that he needs to admit his hands will be tied over.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,243
    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    There are probably very many Remainers who are quite satisfied with Farage.
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    Anorak said:

    Be funny if we vote leave then its England v Wales in the Euro cup final

    That would be PERFECT. Although I didn't know UEFA was part of the EU. Thanks for pointing that out ;)
    The bit Im worried about in this Scenario is England reaching the final.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FPT
    @LucyJones

    "I don't think it has been long enough. Seriously. It has felt very rushed to me. Of course, we all know all why it has been rushed, which makes it even more frustrating. "

    I agree that the whole process of renegotiation plus referendum has been rushed and the debate has been awful as a result. That was Cameron's choice and I am sure he had reasons for doing it so and I wouldn't pretend to understand them.

    The result though has been sub-optimal. In fact I think it has been pretty bloody awful for the Conservative Party, political discourse in the UK and for Cameron himself.
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    edited June 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    If you want to be in the EU, you will want Turkey to be a member as well. Remain has been pretty dishonest about this (and just saving problems up for a later date).
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    Very slight firming up of support for REMAIN, but no real underlying movement this morning.
    The odds therefore continue to show REMAIN 1/4 with LEAVE on 3/1.
    I imagine that the final polls aren't going to appear until latish this evening.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Lowlander said:

    I keep seeing people say that Sunderland will indicate the vote is really close if it is 52/48 to Leave but what is this based on? Surely Sunderland is going to be much more No biased than the average even despite the car plant?

    Interestingly, I think Scotland's result will be known before 2am. It was in the Independence Referendum. Clackmannanshire voted 54% to 46% No, which was very close to the actual result and came in at 1.30am. Clacks is a very good microcosm of Scotland and whatever the vote is there at 1.30am it will be very close to the Scottish result at the end of the count.

    The spreadsheet says that 53.6% leave v 46.7% remain is the expected 50:50 result in Sunderland which is a little different.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    Looks like Turkey will be Remain's biggest lie then....
    It is not Leavers biggest lie there have been several larger .
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
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    midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112



    And Farage not taking a knock for THAT poster? But getting an uptick instead? Maybe it did its job after all...


    Indeed. The people who have been getting so worked up over it are not the people it was aimed at and have only given it a huge amount of publicity.
    I find it hard to imagine the people it was aimed at weren't Leavers already. All it will have done is repelled DKs
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    El_Dave said:

    MaxPB said:

    Horrible ratings for Dave among Tory voters. The rating among members will be even worse.

    Unless Remain win BIG, I'm expecting Cameron and Osborne to be kicked out ASAP.
    Eh? Cameron's ratings among Tories is in a similar position to 2012.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited June 2016

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    Fair enough. I'd call the German CBI power brokers rather an experts, but point taken.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The fieldwork pre-dates last week's events.
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    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.

    Exactly. The best question Farage never answered is why, if the Europeans are so nasty and unhelpful towards us when we are inside the EU (ignoring our interests, taking our money, outvoting us countless times etc.), they should suddenly turn all friendly and helpful and give us this dream all-trade no-conditions deal, once we have decided to flounce out?
    Because their economy is in enough of a mess already without cutting off their nose (well actually one of their main export markets) to spite their face.

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    El_DaveEl_Dave Posts: 145
    edited June 2016
    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.

    Exactly. The best question Farage never answered is why, if the Europeans are so nasty and unhelpful towards us when we are inside the EU (ignoring our interests, taking our money, outvoting us countless times etc.), they should suddenly turn all friendly and helpful and give us this dream all-trade no-conditions deal, once we have decided to flounce out?
    Because its in their best interests? Because they make more money out of us than we make out of them?

    -------------------

    I was listening to an Irish podcast on Brexit yesterday. Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    https://soundcloud.com/independentiepodcasts
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    No new trade barriers = EFTA = high immigration. Is that what Leave want to endorse...?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FPT @ SO

    SO, thanks for your and Dr Fox' anecdotes. It is important for the UK as a whole to recognize and reflect on how upsetting this whole campaign has been.

    However, I am optimistic that for 95% or more of the population, this rancour will subside almost immediately the vote is done and dusted, and the talk of immigration will revert to normal levels.

    At an individual level, I am sure that those already here will find a post-Brexit vote pretty much as welcoming as the one that existed 4 months ago. Hopefully your partner's wife will then be comfortable, and any relocation decisions are based on what is best for the family and the business.

    For all the nastiness of this campaign, on both sides, the UK is, in my experience of traveling around the world, about as pragmatic and tolerant a place as exists.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    Oh dear. I wonder if we might get a leak today of exactly what's being held back by the EU until after the vote.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    taffys said:

    Fair enough. I'd call the German CBI power brokers rather an experts, but point taken.

    Right, the PM of Spain jumps every time they speak.

    Oh, wait...
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,243

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    No new trade barriers = EFTA = high immigration. Is that what Leave want to endorse...?
    Possibly. I get the feeling some immigration obsessed Leavers couldn't find a cup of water, even if you dropped them in the Atlantic Ocean.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    El_Dave said:

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.

    Exactly. The best question Farage never answered is why, if the Europeans are so nasty and unhelpful towards us when we are inside the EU (ignoring our interests, taking our money, outvoting us countless times etc.), they should suddenly turn all friendly and helpful and give us this dream all-trade no-conditions deal, once we have decided to flounce out?
    Because its in their best interests? Because they make more money out of us than we make out of them?

    -------------------

    I was listening to an Irish podcast on Brexit yesterday. Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    https://soundcloud.com/independentiepodcasts
    That is why Eurocrats' plans for a vindictive approach to the Article 50 negotiations will be pushed aside once the new reality sets in.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    El_Dave said:

    MaxPB said:

    Horrible ratings for Dave among Tory voters. The rating among members will be even worse.

    Unless Remain win BIG, I'm expecting Cameron and Osborne to be kicked out ASAP.
    What a tragic misjudgment Cameron will have made if Leave wins. I've never got the impression he would die in a ditch for the EU. He had the perfect opportunity to walk away from the renegotiations when he was getting feck all and lead the Leave campaign.

    But he oversold his deal, insulted our intelligence, then had to go further and further from reality in defending his shabby outcome. It wasn't enough to insult his natural support as "Little Englanders". No - he had to go the point of being ridiculed. I mean - war? Really Prime Minister? He's finished as a credible politician as a result of his campaign, even if he has got a narrow Remain result tomorrow.

    And he could have been a national hero - if he'd only listened to Steve Hilton.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    El_Dave said:

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.

    Exactly. The best question Farage never answered is why, if the Europeans are so nasty and unhelpful towards us when we are inside the EU (ignoring our interests, taking our money, outvoting us countless times etc.), they should suddenly turn all friendly and helpful and give us this dream all-trade no-conditions deal, once we have decided to flounce out?
    Because its in their best interests? Because they make more money out of us than we make out of them?

    -------------------

    I was listening to an Irish podcast on Brexit yesterday. Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    https://soundcloud.com/independentiepodcasts
    It's not in their interests if a favourable deal stirs up unrest elsewhere...

    They are a big customer of ours, we are a small(er) customer of theirs....
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215

    El_Dave said:

    MaxPB said:

    Horrible ratings for Dave among Tory voters. The rating among members will be even worse.

    Unless Remain win BIG, I'm expecting Cameron and Osborne to be kicked out ASAP.
    What a tragic misjudgment Cameron will have made if Leave wins. I've never got the impression he would die in a ditch for the EU. He had the perfect opportunity to walk away from the renegotiations when he was getting feck all and lead the Leave campaign.

    But he oversold his deal, insulted our intelligence, then had to go further and further from reality in defending his shabby outcome. It wasn't enough to insult his natural support as "Little Englanders". No - he had to go the point of being ridiculed. I mean - war? Really Prime Minister? He's finished as a credible politician as a result of his campaign, even if he has got a narrow Remain result tomorrow.

    And he could have been a national hero - if he'd only listened to Steve Hilton.
    What was Cameron thinking with that deal? He would have been better off just asking for more money.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    It does tend to support what Leavers have been saying all along about the Germans wanting a deal.

    Reuters also report that the majority of large German companies have concerns.

    It seems to me that all the conversations we have read where people have been concerned about being locked out of the European Single Market have most likely been mirrored in Europe with big EU exporters and service providers worrying about being locked out of the UK Single Market.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    El_Dave said:

    Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    If we Vote to leave, they will give us huge concessions because "Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums"

    Anyone else seeing a minor flaw in this line of thinking?
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    midwinter said:



    And Farage not taking a knock for THAT poster? But getting an uptick instead? Maybe it did its job after all...


    Indeed. The people who have been getting so worked up over it are not the people it was aimed at and have only given it a huge amount of publicity.
    I find it hard to imagine the people it was aimed at weren't Leavers already. All it will have done is repelled DKs
    It was almost certainly aimed at winding up DE leavers so they are feeling angry and will therefore turn up tomorrow.

    The publicity that Remain outrage gave it was perfect to achieve that end.

    When will Remain learn "Do not feed the troll"
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
    Indeed - it would make it harder for Germany to sell to the UK and make them and other EU leaders much less willing to offer free trade to cut price UK exports. Sadly Britain has had numerous devaluations over many years and yet we still struggle to sell. Why should this be any different?
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    WilliamzWilliamz Posts: 44
    Turnout Alert

    London Highways companies have just put in place emergency flood clearance measures for London area overnight into tomorrow due to weather warning from Met Office.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    chestnut said:

    It does tend to support what Leavers have been saying all along about the Germans wanting a deal.

    The same people who have cited as a reason for leaving that the EU doesn't do deals?

    And of course, Germany is not the EU
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    Mr. Eagles, I saw some figures this morning, I don't know how accurate they are, but they made interesting reading.

    Suppose if we voted to Leave and the EU decided to punish us by treating us the same way as Korea, Australia, the USA etc.. We would face tariffs on our exports of 3 to 4%.

    The alternative is that we continue to pay so as we are not subject to such tariffs. The amount we pay (nett) is some £8.5bn.

    Given the amount we export to the EU that £8.5bn is equivalent to a tariff of 7%.

    In other words even if we were subject to EU import tariffs we would still be better off out. Plus of course the financial situation would be improved by us imposing our own tariffs on imports from the EU.

    You are a lawyer, assume for the sake of argument that the figures I have given you are correct and argue how this is a good deal financially for the UK.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
    Devaluation does not mean that the £ in your pocket is worth less . I remember when Conservatives argued against that lie .
  • Options
    RobCRobC Posts: 398
    I wonder if the final polls are going to pick up any last minute switchback to Remain?

    Incidentally have PBers noticed any significant campaigning by less high profile Tory MPs who've declared for Remain? Helen Grant has been conspicuous by her almost total absence here.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Mine For Nothing
    Outcome of the EU referendum will likely be known between 3:30am-4am on Friday 24th June #Brexit https://t.co/FSiTtu8uTp
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Scott_P said:

    El_Dave said:

    Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    If we Vote to leave, they will give us huge concessions because "Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums"

    Anyone else seeing a minor flaw in this line of thinking?
    ROFL. On the scale of wishful thinking it is pretty well out there.
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    taffys said:

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    Fair enough. I'd call the German CBI power brokers rather an experts, but point taken.
    For those who read German, here's what the boss of the BDI (German equivalent of CBI) was saying yesterday:

    Brexit bringt keinerlei Vorteile

    Ein Brexit bringt weder für die britische noch für die deutsche Wirtschaft einen Vorteil.

    Translation: A brexit is of no benefit whatsoever to either the British or the German economy.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    IanB2 said:

    It's not in their interests if a favourable deal stirs up unrest elsewhere...

    Well, quite...
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    DanSmith said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    If you want to be in the EU, you will want Turkey to be a member as well. Remain has been pretty dishonest about this (and just saving problems up for a later date).
    For "pretty dishonest" read "lying their tits off...."
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,243

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    Mr. Eagles, I saw some figures this morning, I don't know how accurate they are, but they made interesting reading.

    Suppose if we voted to Leave and the EU decided to punish us by treating us the same way as Korea, Australia, the USA etc.. We would face tariffs on our exports of 3 to 4%.

    The alternative is that we continue to pay so as we are not subject to such tariffs. The amount we pay (nett) is some £8.5bn.

    Given the amount we export to the EU that £8.5bn is equivalent to a tariff of 7%.

    In other words even if we were subject to EU import tariffs we would still be better off out. Plus of course the financial situation would be improved by us imposing our own tariffs on imports from the EU.

    You are a lawyer, assume for the sake of argument that the figures I have given you are correct and argue how this is a good deal financially for the UK.
    I'm not Tony Blair, I'm not going to base an argument on some unsourced data.

    I need hard numbers.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    No new trade barriers = EFTA = high immigration. Is that what Leave want to endorse...?
    Possibly. I get the feeling some immigration obsessed Leavers couldn't find a cup of water, even if you dropped them in the Atlantic Ocean.
    That's we'll be, also note that the other EFTA nations are covered by the financial services passport. Even the Swiss look like they will get away with pulling their emergency brake and the EU will just let them leave it in place "until such time that the European economy has recovered to reduce migration pressures". I think that's where we are headed as well, and it won't be the end of the world. The devaluation will provide a decent short term boost to manufacturing and the economy will recover fairly quickly. No country in the EU will want to start a trade war with a nation that imports £120bn more than they export.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    For information: there is an interesting data plot concerning voter registration and age on the Telegraph's live blog.

    Put simply, the more pensioners there are in an area, the higher registration goes.

    Some counting areas barely have 60% registration. These are places with low numbers of pensioners. Those over 80% registration have large numbers of pensioner registrations.
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    LowlanderLowlander Posts: 941
    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
    If a mega rich Chinese businessman or Emirati oil tycoon is considering the purchase of a Maybach or a Rolls Royce, how much do you think the price is part of their consideration?

    The problem with the "devaluation is great for exports" argument is that it only works if you have price elastic goods. Premium products and technologically innovative products (which is where an advanced economy should be focused) are much less price elastic than, for example, commodities.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,789
    edited June 2016
    Nigel Farage - Most Popular party leader in the UK?

    Even I wasn't expecting that, LOL!
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    It does tend to support what Leavers have been saying all along about the Germans wanting a deal.

    Reuters also report that the majority of large German companies have concerns.

    It seems to me that all the conversations we have read where people have been concerned about being locked out of the European Single Market have most likely been mirrored in Europe with big EU exporters and service providers worrying about being locked out of the UK Single Market.
    Lol - almost at the level of 'fog in the channel Europe cut off'. One helluva reality check on the way for little Britain methinks.
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    El_DaveEl_Dave Posts: 145
    IanB2 said:

    El_Dave said:

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    FPT. Interesting to see the squirming defensiveness about immigration among some of the more moderate 'leavers' on here - maybe it's slowly dawning on them that their gigantic FU to the rest of the EU countries might not be the best tactic for negotiating Brexit. Unfortunately 'we like you but FO anyway' maybe just won't cut it over the next few months.

    Exactly. The best question Farage never answered is why, if the Europeans are so nasty and unhelpful towards us when we are inside the EU (ignoring our interests, taking our money, outvoting us countless times etc.), they should suddenly turn all friendly and helpful and give us this dream all-trade no-conditions deal, once we have decided to flounce out?
    Because its in their best interests? Because they make more money out of us than we make out of them?

    -------------------

    I was listening to an Irish podcast on Brexit yesterday. Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    https://soundcloud.com/independentiepodcasts
    It's not in their interests if a favourable deal stirs up unrest elsewhere...

    They are a big customer of ours, we are a small(er) customer of theirs....
    They've been delaying the Swiss deal till after Brexit. I expect to see Switzerland finalise a no-free-movement deal shortly after the referendum.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    felix said:

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
    Indeed - it would make it harder for Germany to sell to the UK and make them and other EU leaders much less willing to offer free trade to cut price UK exports. Sadly Britain has had numerous devaluations over many years and yet we still struggle to sell. Why should this be any different?
    Rubbish. The last Sterling devaluation oversaw the largest growth in manufacturing since the 80s. As always the facts contradict your stupid claims.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?

    We're listening to people we agree with, to be sure. But they happen to be not campaigning, which probably increases the honesty quotient, and are talking about what they want if Brexit happens. I am sure they are for the most part people who have argued for Remain. But now the campaigning is over, they are looking realistically at how each scenario should play out.

    And this is what we on the Brexit side predicted the experts who've argued so vehemently (and occasionally mendaciously) for Bremain would do should Brexit prevail.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    And of course, Germany is not the EU

    FFS of course it is. Get over yourself.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Scott_P said:

    chestnut said:

    It does tend to support what Leavers have been saying all along about the Germans wanting a deal.

    The same people who have cited as a reason for leaving that the EU doesn't do deals?

    And of course, Germany is not the EU
    They have too much money already in the game, Scott.
  • Options
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    midwinter said:



    And Farage not taking a knock for THAT poster? But getting an uptick instead? Maybe it did its job after all...


    Indeed. The people who have been getting so worked up over it are not the people it was aimed at and have only given it a huge amount of publicity.
    I find it hard to imagine the people it was aimed at weren't Leavers already. All it will have done is repelled DKs
    It was almost certainly aimed at winding up DE leavers so they are feeling angry and will therefore turn up tomorrow.

    The publicity that Remain outrage gave it was perfect to achieve that end.

    When will Remain learn "Do not feed the troll"
    That poster was not a net vote winner.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258

    DanSmith said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    If you want to be in the EU, you will want Turkey to be a member as well. Remain has been pretty dishonest about this (and just saving problems up for a later date).
    For "pretty dishonest" read "lying their tits off...."
    The question is how dishonest the EU is being in honestly pushing the issue of Turkish membership forwards.

    Which is sort of ironic because, if we are being asked to Remain on that basis, we are being asked to do so on the basis of not trusting what they actually say.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    GIN1138 said:

    Nigel Farage - Most Popular party leader in the UK?

    Even I wasn't expecting that, LOL!

    So was Alex Salmond in Scotland just before indyref and his ratings were higher than Farage's
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    chestnut said:

    They have too much money already in the game, Scott.

    They still need 27 votes. Are you suggesting they buy them?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,895
    edited June 2016
    Lowlander said:

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
    If a mega rich Chinese businessman or Emirati oil tycoon is considering the purchase of a Maybach or a Rolls Royce, how much do you think the price is part of their consideration?

    The problem with the "devaluation is great for exports" argument is that it only works if you have price elastic goods. Premium products and technologically innovative products (which is where an advanced economy should be focused) are much less price elastic than, for example, commodities.
    Our main competitors are German.
  • Options

    DanSmith said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Guido
    Sources tell @AFP EU members states will meet next week to open Turkey membership talks: https://t.co/sMa3WR5BGs https://t.co/CiAtRIUhM2

    If you want to be in the EU, you will want Turkey to be a member as well. Remain has been pretty dishonest about this (and just saving problems up for a later date).
    For "pretty dishonest" read "lying their tits off...."
    Nope. The Lies on Turkey have all been from the Leave side.

    The Remain position on Turkey is quite clear: The EU would, one day, like to welcome Turkey as a member, but, unfortunately, Turkey is not likely to be in a position compatible with membership for a very long time, if ever. Every EU country retains the right to veto Turkey's membership.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited June 2016
    RobC said:

    I wonder if the final polls are going to pick up any last minute switchback to Remain?

    Incidentally have PBers noticed any significant campaigning by less high profile Tory MPs who've declared for Remain? Helen Grant has been conspicuous by her almost total absence here.

    Who's Helen Grant?
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    felix said:

    chestnut said:

    taffys said:

    No new trade barriers post brexit then. None, zip, nada, zilch.

    Oh we're listening to experts now ?
    It does tend to support what Leavers have been saying all along about the Germans wanting a deal.

    Reuters also report that the majority of large German companies have concerns.

    It seems to me that all the conversations we have read where people have been concerned about being locked out of the European Single Market have most likely been mirrored in Europe with big EU exporters and service providers worrying about being locked out of the UK Single Market.
    Lol - almost at the level of 'fog in the channel Europe cut off'. One helluva reality check on the way for little Britain methinks.
    The head of the German CBI merely echoing the head of the German automotive industry.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    Williamz said:

    Turnout Alert

    London Highways companies have just put in place emergency flood clearance measures for London area overnight into tomorrow due to weather warning from Met Office.

    Please can tomorrow be absolutely pissing down all day in London. Pretty please!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I see Marine Le Pen has endorsed the Leave campaign.

    Happy bedfellows?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    On tw8tter - German CBI pleads for no tariffs with UK post brexit.

    For all the overblown rhetoric around at the moment, if we actually vote to leave it will be quickly replaced by pragmatism on the part of those around the table negotiating.

    Merkel's up for election next year, so is Hollande. They won't want to make themselves unpopular at home by stifling their own trade with the UK, most of which is exports to the UK.
    A sterling devaluation of 10-30% will do a fair bit of the stifling - another Brexiquence hardly likely to endear us to our continental friends just after we tell them to FO
    A Sterling devaluation of that level would hurt Germany more than it would hurt us since we both compete in the same finished manufactured goods export markets. Given how bad our current account deficit is, a devaluation of that kind would probably be quite welcome.
    Devaluation does not mean that the £ in your pocket is worth less . I remember when Conservatives argued against that lie .
    Indeed - as a fierce Conservative - I'm pretty ashamed of the protectionism argument which has swept through the Leave section of the party and also amused at any notion that it will somehow make us all richer whilst removing all the EU immigrants.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    taffys said:

    And of course, Germany is not the EU

    FFS of course it is.

    How does Germany get 27 other National leaders to vote the way they want?
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Scott_P said:

    chestnut said:

    They have too much money already in the game, Scott.

    They still need 27 votes. Are you suggesting they buy them?
    Others will be similarly inclined; the little countries will be whipped into line, they need the Germans' money.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Scott_P said:

    I see Marine Le Pen has endorsed the Leave campaign.

    Happy bedfellows?

    We can all play that game...

    Anjem Choudary backs Remain because EU ‘stops unfair deportations’
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    Please can tomorrow be absolutely pissing down all day in London. Pretty please!

    Biblical thunderstorms for Kent is the forecast
  • Options
    El_DaveEl_Dave Posts: 145
    Scott_P said:

    El_Dave said:

    Liam Halligan was the UK voice, he pointed out that if we vote Leave, the politics are going to throw every other consideration out of the window.

    1. Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums.
    2. The UK is too big an economy for the EU to risk losing market share to non-EU options.

    As with the Euro crisis, politics will trump procedures.

    If we Vote to leave, they will give us huge concessions because "Other EU member states may well have their own membership referendums"

    Anyone else seeing a minor flaw in this line of thinking?
    After we invoke article 50 the clock starts counting down from 2 years.

    Before that clock stops the EU may well have lost other big member states.

    http://fortune.com/2016/06/08/eu-popularity-brexit-pew/
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    El_Dave said:

    MaxPB said:

    Horrible ratings for Dave among Tory voters. The rating among members will be even worse.

    Unless Remain win BIG, I'm expecting Cameron and Osborne to be kicked out ASAP.
    Osborne perhaps, Cameron certainly not
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    Sandpit said:

    Williamz said:

    Turnout Alert

    London Highways companies have just put in place emergency flood clearance measures for London area overnight into tomorrow due to weather warning from Met Office.

    Please can tomorrow be absolutely pissing down all day in London. Pretty please!
    No, the storms will track along the south coast from the Isle of Wight, head across north Kent to the Essex coast just skimming the eastern Boroughs of London, then head north towards Lincolnshire...
  • Options
    chestnut said:

    For information: there is an interesting data plot concerning voter registration and age on the Telegraph's live blog.

    Put simply, the more pensioners there are in an area, the higher registration goes.

    Some counting areas barely have 60% registration. These are places with low numbers of pensioners. Those over 80% registration have large numbers of pensioner registrations.

    Presumably this didnt come from ORB?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    chestnut said:

    Others will be similarly inclined; the little countries will be whipped into line, they need the Germans' money.

    So you are suggesting they buy them. Fair enough.
  • Options
    tpfkar said:

    Having said I'd sit the referendum out, I've actually been delivering leaflets across my ward for the past few days. Nothing from the official campaign - but a leaflet from our MEP talking about their work, and what they are achieving through the EU. It hardly mentions the referendum but people have said it was refreshing and informative compared to the shouting of the campaigns. We'll have to see.

    One thing I have noticed, lots of LEAVE posters on major road junctions, at the side of A roads etc, but several small remain posters on the houses in my ward, in some areas where I wouldn't expect. Leave clearly more visible, but road junctions don't vote as often as people in my experience. No idea if it's anything more than a straw in the wind.

    Almost at the stage where whichever side wins, I want them to win well - so there's no suggestion that we'll have a rerun any time soon.

    I drove through a main road in a Lib dem area last night. Usually at election time it has 6+ LD houses with posters, 1 Con and 1 UKIP. This time just 3 for LEAVE.
This discussion has been closed.