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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Introducing the PB/YouGov Favourability Ratings – a new dev

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Introducing the PB/YouGov Favourability Ratings – a new development by the site

As many will know I am a great fan of leader ratings which I believe are a better pointer to political outcomes than voting intention numbers. There are several different formats. Ipsos-MORI ask about “satisfaction”, Opinium goes for straight approval number while the standard YouGov question is asking the sample whether those named are doing well or badly.

Read the full story here


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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    First in the queue.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    edited August 2016
    How do numbers stack up?

    Cameron is -46 with Remain and -31 with Leave but he's -27 overall.

    That is surely impossible unless he is about +100 with undecideds on EU which isn't realistic.

    Other numbers hard to reconcile as well - eg May is +49 (Leave) and -8 (Remain) but only +12 overall.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    What do the blue and red colours mean?
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    nunu said:

    What do the blue and red colours mean?

    Oh its changed now, nevermind..
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Another poll showing Tories less unpopular than Labour.
    Interesting.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    A very welcome development! Long may it continue.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Theresa May also much more popular than UKIP with Leave voters.

    Ukip are not going to sweep England we don't have hard Brexit, they even like Obama more.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    Morning all. Interesting new polling, well done Mike and Yougov team.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    edited August 2016
    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    As PB goes, so goes the nation.. :D
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Oh, and still second? Beginning to fear for tyson now.... ;)
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    If we'd won no medals, the same pundits would remind us of the Thatcherite line that picking winners is a relic of failed socialist dogma and we need to leave it to the market.

    In any case, the counter-example is swimming which had its funding cut yet has won more medals in Rio than in London 2012.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    As PB goes, so goes the nation.. :D
    And another one: Why Britain should come together and celebrate our success as one, united nation.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3742456/ROBERT-HARDMAN-Rio-2016-United-Kingdom-again.html
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Favourability ratings -- what has happened to David Cameron? Surely his fall from grace is a warning his previous ratings were partly or even mainly dependent on his position as Tory leader and Prime Minister. I'm not sure whether that strengthens or weakens the argument that favourability ratings predict election results.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Favourability ratings -- what has happened to David Cameron? Surely his fall from grace is a warning his previous ratings were partly or even mainly dependent on his position as Tory leader and Prime Minister. I'm not sure whether that strengthens or weakens the argument that favourability ratings predict election results.

    His ratings collapsed while PM, so I am not sure that holds.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150

    Favourability ratings -- what has happened to David Cameron? Surely his fall from grace is a warning his previous ratings were partly or even mainly dependent on his position as Tory leader and Prime Minister. I'm not sure whether that strengthens or weakens the argument that favourability ratings predict election results.

    Basically Leave people don't like him because he was for Remain and Remain people don't like him because he held the referendum and lost it.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,884

    Favourability ratings -- what has happened to David Cameron? Surely his fall from grace is a warning his previous ratings were partly or even mainly dependent on his position as Tory leader and Prime Minister. I'm not sure whether that strengthens or weakens the argument that favourability ratings predict election results.

    Basically Leave people don't like him because he was for Remain and Remain people don't like him because he held the referendum and lost it.
    Ha! A succinct and accurate summary :)
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    If we'd won no medals, the same pundits would remind us of the Thatcherite line that picking winners is a relic of failed socialist dogma and we need to leave it to the market.

    In any case, the counter-example is swimming which had its funding cut yet has won more medals in Rio than in London 2012.
    Incentives work then :)
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    But we can all agree on Donald Trump - which is nice.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,978
    edited August 2016
    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    With Obama about to walk away from the US Presidency, that will leave Theresa May as the politician on the world stage looked on most favourably? Crikey.

    Was also somewhat surprised to see Tim Farron running ahead of his party.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,978

    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    If we'd won no medals, the same pundits would remind us of the Thatcherite line that picking winners is a relic of failed socialist dogma and we need to leave it to the market.

    (Snip)
    The point is they are picking winners after they become winners (or at least very good), and encourage them onwards. The socialist line alternative would be to pick a child at three and try to make them winners. Or more accurately, not to allow anyone to compete, because competition means there'll be losers, and they'll feel bad.

    It's not a Thatcherite line: it's an observation of reality. And it also makes common sense.

    So let's have a list of where the UK government has picked winners *before* they became winners?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322
    I really don't get the Barack Obama love in.

    I mean, really?

    The man has been decidedly average in office, and isn't Jesus.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235
    Like others unless there is a significant number who are not identifying themselves as Leavers or Remainers I am having some difficulty in reconciling some of the figures. What I find surprising, however, is how popular May, who supposedly campaigned for remain, is with leavers, much more popular than with remainers.

    I can't help thinking that if Article 50 is delayed or Brexit turns out to be soft that will not last. As Mike says the most useful aspect of this sort of measurement is comparators over time but May in her honeymoon will have a tough comparator to deal with and is very likely to go backwards.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,978

    I really don't get the Barack Obama love in.

    I mean, really?

    The man has been decidedly average in office, and isn't Jesus.

    Worse: he's been decidedly average after massive expectations ramping in 2008.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    As PB goes, so goes the nation.. :D
    And another one: Why Britain should come together and celebrate our success as one, united nation.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3742456/ROBERT-HARDMAN-Rio-2016-United-Kingdom-again.html
    We do seem to have heard rather less of the Scolympians this time.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,235

    I really don't get the Barack Obama love in.

    I mean, really?

    The man has been decidedly average in office, and isn't Jesus.

    I think he is being extremely flattered by the comparison with the current choice.
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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    Fascinating polling.

    It would be interesting to include, say, an Adolf Hitler or similar and Jesus or someone like that, and see if Donald Trump is less popular than the former and if Barack Obama beats the latter.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited August 2016
    Deleted -- no time to fix internal quotes.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I really don't get the Barack Obama love in.

    I mean, really?

    The man has been decidedly average in office, and isn't Jesus.

    The average respondent doesn't know the details of what he's done & thinks that telling the pretty lady (or computer) that they approve of America's first black president will make her think better of them (or at least give themselves a warm self-satisfied glow).

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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    nunu said:

    Theresa May also much more popular than UKIP with Leave voters.

    Ukip are not going to sweep England we don't have hard Brexit, they even like Obama more.

    Wait until the great betrayal happens. We are still in prr-Brexit unreality at the moment. If free movement stays on the table then watch May's favorability plummet.
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    DavidL said:

    Like others unless there is a significant number who are not identifying themselves as Leavers or Remainers I am having some difficulty in reconciling some of the figures. What I find surprising, however, is how popular May, who supposedly campaigned for remain, is with leavers, much more popular than with remainers.

    I can't help thinking that if Article 50 is delayed or Brexit turns out to be soft that will not last. As Mike says the most useful aspect of this sort of measurement is comparators over time but May in her honeymoon will have a tough comparator to deal with and is very likely to go backwards.

    Remember the bulk of Remainers are non Tories, so people not normally predisposed to the Tories.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    MikeL said:

    How do numbers stack up?

    Cameron is -46 with Remain and -31 with Leave but he's -27 overall.

    That is surely impossible unless he is about +100 with undecideds on EU which isn't realistic.

    Other numbers hard to reconcile as well - eg May is +49 (Leave) and -8 (Remain) but only +12 overall.

    Cameron should be -26 with Remain, I think. May should be +39 with Leave.
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    For those interested. Theresa May's rating among those that didn't vote in the referendum is

    Favourable - 27%

    Unfavourable - 33%

    DK - 40%
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Momentum expelling entryists and being accused of being a right wing plot:

    https://twitter.com/hopisen/status/764793386608066561

    It takes a heart of stone...
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    It does show that Temainers are potentially fertile ground for LD targeting.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Theresa May is adored by Leavers. Remainers are already net unfavourable to her. She had better not let the Leavers down.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    Thanks so much Mike - what a great coup for PB!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,831

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    nunu said:

    Another poll showing Tories less unpopular than Labour.
    Interesting.

    Fear not - young Justin will be around soon to find the small straws for Labour....
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322
    DavidL said:

    I really don't get the Barack Obama love in.

    I mean, really?

    The man has been decidedly average in office, and isn't Jesus.

    I think he is being extremely flattered by the comparison with the current choice.
    But his ratings are almost off the scale.

    Given what he said during the referendum I'd have thought he'd at least be behind with Leavers.

    Even Downing Street's staff took the piss out of Obama (pre referendum) due to his lack of communication and indecisiveness.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,712
    Charles said:

    I really don't get the Barack Obama love in.

    I mean, really?

    The man has been decidedly average in office, and isn't Jesus.

    The average respondent doesn't know the details of what he's done & thinks that telling the pretty lady (or computer) that they approve of America's first black president will make her think better of them (or at least give themselves a warm self-satisfied glow).

    Obama has been better than Bush and is likely to be better than or much better than the next President.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
    I find the contrasting view of SNP is fascinating
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Harry Reid in is a little feisty at the moment

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/harry-reid-asks-donald-trump-to-take-the-naturalization-test

    "Immigrants work hard to get here and become Americans, while Trump inherited everything from his father and works hardest at Tweeting insults and ripping off hard-working people with two-bit scams," Reid said.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,831
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
    I find the contrasting view of SNP is fascinating
    Hostility to the SNP among eurosceptic English and Welsh voters is a winning card for the Conservatives.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    It does show that Temainers are potentially fertile ground for LD targeting.
    I wouldn't go that far. Before you get to favourability you first have to get to relevance.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
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    This is great for the site, many thanks to Mike, Freddie and everyone else at YouGov.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    It does show that Temainers are potentially fertile ground for LD targeting.
    Rejoiners are only a small subset of Remainers.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,978

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited August 2016

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    There was a similar if more frivolous finding in the 'favourite brands' research published a week or so back, which found a dramatically different set of favourites for remain and leave. The difference in outlook between remain and leave is striking (characterised, if somewhat lazily, into winners from/supporters of globalisation and losers/opponents). But the most striking thing of all is how badly this apparent gulf in attitudes is reflected by our current political party setup,

    At the start is was leavers who weren't well represented, with Labour, the LibDems , SNP, PC and Greens all 'remain' parties, with the Tories split but clearly 'remain' at the top table. All the leavers had was UKIP.

    But May's pitch on the no. 10 steps clearly intends to turn the Tories toward the leavers. For Labour, Corbyn and the left are clearly less pro-remain than the blairites, although I would expect many of the young educated London-based corbynite new members to be strongly remain. Even the greens have their split with the anti-globalisation/world trade wing becoming more vocal. So the solid remainer would now appear to have just the LibDems and SNP wholly onside?
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    The poll is an excellent innovation - thanks, Mike. I don't understand the significance of blue and red either, though?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited August 2016

    The poll is an excellent innovation - thanks, Mike. I don't understand the significance of blue and red either, though?

    Blue are the positive ones according to remainers, with red the remainers' negatives. By keeping the colours I presume it highlights the different view of leavers when the bars move around.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
    The staff should be expected to put the passengers first: that is their job. If they don't want to do that they should leave and let the company replace them.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,712
    Nasa accused of corrupting climate change data by Australian politician
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37091391
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Baffled at Obama being ahead with Leavers. Never really understood the cult of Saint Barack in the first place but during the referendum he exposed himself as a bully.

    That said, if I ever meet him I'll shake him by the hand and thank him for the poll bounce he gave us.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,978

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
    Laughable.

    "That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers."

    Odd then how so many governments, including Labour ones, did not look after passengers when the railways were nationalised. Perhaps because railways will only influence a small proportion to vote, whereas screams of 'education, education, education' are much more effective?

    You can also make that argument to nationalise everything.

    Also odd how usage by passengers has more than doubled since those golden days of BR. (Freight's another matter, with the decimation of trainload coal). People are voting with their feet.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322
    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
    I find the contrasting view of SNP is fascinating
    Hostility to the SNP among eurosceptic English and Welsh voters is a winning card for the Conservatives.
    It seems to be becoming a winning (or at least runner up) card for unionist Scottish voters as well.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
    Laughable.

    "That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers."

    Odd then how so many governments, including Labour ones, did not look after passengers when the railways were nationalised. Perhaps because railways will only influence a small proportion to vote, whereas screams of 'education, education, education' are much more effective?

    You can also make that argument to nationalise everything.

    Also odd how usage by passengers has more than doubled since those golden days of BR. (Freight's another matter, with the decimation of trainload coal). People are voting with their feet.
    I don’t think the increase in use of the railways has anything to do with denationalisation and the “consequent service improvements”; it’s more a question of Hobsons Choice.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    The poll is an excellent innovation - thanks, Mike. I don't understand the significance of blue and red either, though?

    I think it's intended to confuse Tories/Labour voters, Leavers/Remainers and GOPers/Democrats.

    We can pick blue or red and guess what it signifies :wink:
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    Am I reading this right? Corbyn supports the RMT Southern strikes but also public ownership because of passenger misery.

    The intellectual Titan at the head of the Labour Party.

    Tories should run ads with Corbo's face on the Southern network. 'This man wants you to give him a job so that he can stop you getting to work'
  • Options
    The big disconnect between "Your MP" and "MPs generally" is interesting.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited August 2016

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    It may not have been a golden age in terms of service, but it certainly was in terms of ticket pricing, which was simple and clear (and cheaper, in real terms).

    Yesterday I was booking a rail trip, and precisely the same single journey, same stations and time, was £75 on the national rail site but £28 on trainline.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    Minor tweak - in the heading, "subtracting the favourable responses from the favourable rating " should presumably be ...thr unfavourable.

    It'd also be interesting to look at pure favourability ratings, which tell you something different. If X has 35% favourable, 50% unfavourable and 15% don't know, while Y has 25% favourable, 40% unfavourable and 35% don't know, then X has a much higher floor (people who positively like him) but a lower ceiling (because most non-supporters have already decided against him). For British politicians in particular, the key is having 40% favourable - it doesn't necessarily matter with FPTP if 60% think you're an emissary of Beezlebub.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited August 2016

    The big disconnect between "Your MP" and "MPs generally" is interesting.

    Your MP is a person (who half the respondents will have voted for) whereas MPs generally are a bunch of useless crooks.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
    Laughable.

    "That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers."

    Odd then how so many governments, including Labour ones, did not look after passengers when the railways were nationalised. Perhaps because railways will only influence a small proportion to vote, whereas screams of 'education, education, education' are much more effective?

    You can also make that argument to nationalise everything.

    Also odd how usage by passengers has more than doubled since those golden days of BR. (Freight's another matter, with the decimation of trainload coal). People are voting with their feet.
    Agreed. The socialist idea that profits are entirely divorced from necessary customer service is laughable, too.

    Even more risable given the a franchise awarding system also allows a second layer of protection for customers over and above the market.

    If the choice is between the government and the market, I'll take my chances with the market every single time.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
    Laughable.

    "That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers."

    Odd then how so many governments, including Labour ones, did not look after passengers when the railways were nationalised. Perhaps because railways will only influence a small proportion to vote, whereas screams of 'education, education, education' are much more effective?

    You can also make that argument to nationalise everything.

    Also odd how usage by passengers has more than doubled since those golden days of BR. (Freight's another matter, with the decimation of trainload coal). People are voting with their feet.
    Surely the rise in passengers is driven by commuting, with cities (esp London) becoming unaffordable to live within and more expensive and impractical to drive into?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited August 2016

    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
    I find the contrasting view of SNP is fascinating
    Hostility to the SNP among eurosceptic English and Welsh voters is a winning card for the Conservatives.
    It seems to be becoming a winning (or at least runner up) card for unionist Scottish voters as well.
    It was always assumed that ScotIndy would be a disaster for Labour. But now, with the prospect of few Scottish seats for a generation at least, maybe Labour would be better off without the millstone of ever-prospective independence around its neck, by actually letting Scotland go? In E&W the Tories would lose their main card, and in Scotland the SNP its purpose.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    edited August 2016

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
    It did happen in the 1930s though precisely because of the fear of accidents. That was imposed after major problems in the 1890s that recurred in WWI, ironically when the railways were publicly owned.

    With WWII and the relaxation of the rules, an exhausted driver became so confused that he overrode his signal protection mechanism, thereby causing the only head on collision in the last hundred years of the GWR's existence.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Dr P,

    I agree with your diagnosis regarding nationalisation but your conclusions may be awry.

    The unions aim to maximise the workers' terms and conditions, and as Marx said, that sets up a contest with the owners (via the shareholders). What he didn't go on to say (but might have done today), is that it also sets up a contest with the customers. When their interests conflict, the workers take priority for the union.

    In a nationalised industry, you have only one contest, not two, but you have no threat of bankruptcy and therefore redundancy either. Therein lies the potential problem.

    Das Kapital - stating the bleeding obvious and making a big song and dance about it -. Rubbish!

  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
    I find the contrasting view of SNP is fascinating
    Hostility to the SNP among eurosceptic English and Welsh voters is a winning card for the Conservatives.
    It seems to be becoming a winning (or at least runner up) card for unionist Scottish voters as well.
    It was always assumed that ScotIndy would be a disaster for Labour. But now, with the prospect of few Scottish seats for a generation at least, maybe Labour would be better off without the millstone of ever-prospective independence around its neck, by actually letting Scotland go? In E&W the Tories would lose their main card, and in Scotland the SNP its purpose.
    The SNP is not the main card for the stories in England and Wales. Their main card is not being hopeless/Labour.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,831
    ydoethur said:

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
    It did happen in the 1930s though precisely because of the fear of accidents. That was imposed after major problems in the 1890s that recurred in WWI, ironically when the railways were publicly owned.

    With WWII and the relaxation of the rules, an exhausted driver became so confused that he overrode his signal protection mechanism, thereby causing the only head on collision in the last hundred years of the GWR's existence.
    O/T I think you'd be amused by Philippa Gregory's speech at the Edinburgh Festival, in which she condemns historical inaccuracy in media.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
    It did happen in the 1930s though precisely because of the fear of accidents. That was imposed after major problems in the 1890s that recurred in WWI, ironically when the railways were publicly owned.

    With WWII and the relaxation of the rules, an exhausted driver became so confused that he overrode his signal protection mechanism, thereby causing the only head on collision in the last hundred years of the GWR's existence.
    O/T I think you'd be amused by Philippa Gregory's speech at the Edinburgh Festival, in which she condemns historical inaccuracy in media.
    The most epic selfawareness fail since Nixon accused Kennedy of rigging a ballot?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,969
    ydoethur said:

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
    It did happen in the 1930s though precisely because of the fear of accidents. That was imposed after major problems in the 1890s that recurred in WWI, ironically when the railways were publicly owned.

    With WWII and the relaxation of the rules, an exhausted driver became so confused that he overrode his signal protection mechanism, thereby causing the only head on collision in the last hundred years of the GWR's existence.
    My father in law used to very occasionally "drive" one of the late night Victoria line trains from Oxford Circus to Victoria when things went wrong with the timetable...

    He was British Transport Police but I never asked if he did it in uniform.....
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Generation safe space are going to get a shock in two days according to headteachers. Finally it seems like the government are making exams tougher again. The Labour years of falling standards and lower difficulty were a joke.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,969
    PlatoSaid said:

    The poll is an excellent innovation - thanks, Mike. I don't understand the significance of blue and red either, though?

    I think it's intended to confuse Tories/Labour voters, Leavers/Remainers and GOPers/Democrats.

    We can pick blue or red and guess what it signifies :wink:
    A very quick investigation shows that (on my phone) blue represents people with positive favourability ratings with Remain voters.

    In the chrome browser it all works fine and blue is those candidates with positive favourability ratings. So I would argue that the Red and Blue colours are meaningless.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:



    The most epic selfawareness fail since Nixon accused Kennedy of rigging a ballot?

    Trump campaign is currently sending out emails demanding that the media investigate Clinton's close ties to Putin.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,322

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    The purpose of companies is to make profits for their shareholders. The purpose of unions is to look after their members. NEITHER of them either do or should be expected to put passengers first, except insofar as it assists or is at least neutral with respect to their primary purpose.

    That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers. Even better, if you think they do a rubbish job, you have recourse (voting), which you don't have with a regional monopoly rail company or a trade union of which you aren't a member.

    It's an issue on which Corbyn and the public are largely in agreement.
    Laughable.

    "That's why key infrastructure like railways should be publicly owned, since the purpose of governments is to represent voters, including passengers."

    Odd then how so many governments, including Labour ones, did not look after passengers when the railways were nationalised. Perhaps because railways will only influence a small proportion to vote, whereas screams of 'education, education, education' are much more effective?

    You can also make that argument to nationalise everything.

    Also odd how usage by passengers has more than doubled since those golden days of BR. (Freight's another matter, with the decimation of trainload coal). People are voting with their feet.
    Agreed. Whilst companies aim to produce profits for their shareholders they can only do so and increase margins by attracting more passengers to their railways.

    In this they have been successful. The capacity of our infrastructure, and train paths, is now the constraint and, in the meantime, TOCs aren't left with much option other than to strip out seats and increase standing room.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,969
    MaxPB said:

    Generation safe space are going to get a shock in two days according to headteachers. Finally it seems like the government are making exams tougher again. The Labour years of falling standards and lower difficulty were a joke.

    That would be good news if you could trust the marking... The reason that many headteachers are panicking with the new remarking rules is that they simply don't trust the marking and have recently seen so many bad examples that they know Thursday is going to be a unfair disaster for many...
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    edited August 2016
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:



    The most epic selfawareness fail since Nixon accused Kennedy of rigging a ballot?

    Trump campaign is currently sending out emails demanding that the media investigate Clinton's close ties to Putin.
    Fair point, we'll demote Gregory to second :smiley:

    Edit - on a serious note, isn't it rather strange that both candidates seem to have rather close and indeed rather dubious links to the Kremlin?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MaxPB said:

    Generation safe space are going to get a shock in two days according to headteachers. Finally it seems like the government are making exams tougher again. The Labour years of falling standards and lower difficulty were a joke.

    That's nothing do with Labour. The system of competing exam boards in England who explicitly advertise that if you go with them your school will get more A's sees to that.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,831
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
    It did happen in the 1930s though precisely because of the fear of accidents. That was imposed after major problems in the 1890s that recurred in WWI, ironically when the railways were publicly owned.

    With WWII and the relaxation of the rules, an exhausted driver became so confused that he overrode his signal protection mechanism, thereby causing the only head on collision in the last hundred years of the GWR's existence.
    O/T I think you'd be amused by Philippa Gregory's speech at the Edinburgh Festival, in which she condemns historical inaccuracy in media.
    The most epic selfawareness fail since Nixon accused Kennedy of rigging a ballot?
    I loved your account of having to explain to pupils that Margaret Beaufort didn't murder the Princes in the Tower, and that Elizabeth Woodville and her mother didn't possess magical powers.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    These polls are a hugely welcome development for the site and for British polling in general. Having a series of favourability scores will be very helpful both for the individual ratings and - going forward - for the changes over time.

    On these figures, what's clear to me is the extent to which the country is divided between Remain and Leave - it's probably a bigger divide in some ways that between party support and certainly than between, say, men and women or rich and poor. What the causality is there though is harder to say. Do people divide their views because they are Remain or Leave (i.e. is their Euro-vote preference driving their other opinions), or is the split deeper than that, with Remain and Leave also consequences or that difference in outlook?

    Partly it's a right/left split. Right wing voters went 70/30 Leave, left wing voters 2/1 Remain.

    To get meaningful numbers, you should break it down further, to see if there are significant differences between right wing Remain/Leave voters, and left wing Remain/Leave voters.
    I find the contrasting view of SNP is fascinating
    Hostility to the SNP among eurosceptic English and Welsh voters is a winning card for the Conservatives.
    It seems to be becoming a winning (or at least runner up) card for unionist Scottish voters as well.
    It was always assumed that ScotIndy would be a disaster for Labour. But now, with the prospect of few Scottish seats for a generation at least, maybe Labour would be better off without the millstone of ever-prospective independence around its neck, by actually letting Scotland go? In E&W the Tories would lose their main card, and in Scotland the SNP its purpose.
    Scotland is Labour's intellectual heartland, letting it go without a fight would be the same a cutting off a leg for them. The leg may be diseased and gangrenous, but they need it. What Labour needs is policies for Scotland and to defend the Union. 55% of people voted No and recent polls put No on 53%, that is a wide enough pool of voters from which to carve 25-35% of the vote. If Labour had governed Scotland properly when they were in power at Holyrood then the SNP would never have got a look in, it feels like they haven't learned that lesson and their MSP are all a bunch of duffers that wouldn't be fit to lick the boots of Nicola and Ruth.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Generation safe space are going to get a shock in two days according to headteachers. Finally it seems like the government are making exams tougher again. The Labour years of falling standards and lower difficulty were a joke.

    That would be good news if you could trust the marking... The reason that many headteachers are panicking with the new remarking rules is that they simply don't trust the marking and have recently seen so many bad examples that they know Thursday is going to be a unfair disaster for many...
    I certainly don't trust the marking and I've been a marker. One of the senior examiners at AQA is still pushing the line that Thatcher won in 1983 solely because of the Falklands war, and marks anyone who points out that actually this was likely a marginal factor down to an E.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    It's a good move to include such a thing, and tracking changes will be interesting.

    In somewhat related news, the weak-kneed naivety of many MPs continues to disappoint:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37091464

    Apparently we must unilaterally guarantee EU citizens currently in the UK lots of rights, despite no reciprocal arrangement in place for British citizens in the EU. May got stick for her stance, which is entirely correct, so this is an early opportunity to see whether she's got backbone to back up (in this instance) sound judgement.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Sean_F said:

    I loved your account of having to explain to pupils that Margaret Beaufort didn't murder the Princes in the Tower, and that Elizabeth Woodville and her mother didn't possess magical powers.

    To Generation Potter the latter was a particular blow.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    IanB2 said:

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    It may not have been a golden age in terms of service, but it certainly was in terms of ticket pricing, which was simple and clear (and cheaper, in real terms).

    Yesterday I was booking a rail trip, and precisely the same single journey, same stations and time, was £75 on the national rail site but £28 on trainline.
    That shouldn't be possible because the various sites all use the same ticketing database.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Generation safe space are going to get a shock in two days according to headteachers. Finally it seems like the government are making exams tougher again. The Labour years of falling standards and lower difficulty were a joke.

    But but but the poor little darling . They all had a meltdown this summer because they were asked one hardy wardy question.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,978

    Corbyn speaks:

    'The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how private transport operators cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart," Mr Corbyn said in advance of launching his "Transport Tuesday" initiative.

    Or, alternatively: The Southern rail debacle just goes to show how unions cannot be trusted with having passengers' best interests at heart.

    "Public ownership of our railways is needed now to fix the transport nightmare we are currently faced with, and we know there is overwhelming support among the British public for a people's railway."

    Yet again, he's got an answer and is trying to make the question fit. As for transport nightmare: can he not remember BR?

    Those who wish for the railways to be renationalised are harking back to a golden age that never existed.

    As an illustration of this, I remember (on more than one occassion) my father coming home very late from London because his train had been delayed and the driver had 'clocked off', and pretty much abandoned the train, having completed the hours for his shift, but two stations and 11 miles shy of the terminus of our branch line where we lived.
    In defence of the driver, going back to the sixties, and perhaps before, there are strict rules regarding how long a driver can drive, and their rest periods in between. Plenty of crashes have been caused by tired drivers asked to work over-long hours.

    It was one of the major contributing factors to Network Rail's failures during their Christmas works in 2014 - delays on site meant that drivers got over their allotted time and legally could not drive trains, even if they'd only been driving for a few minutes in their shift.
    No defence for the driver.

    He should have completed the journey and taken hundreds of commuters home, an extra 10 minutes.

    This has never happened since privitisation. It was union muscle putting their drivers first and passengers last.
    I cannot speak for back then, but AIUI today that would be a disciplinary offence.

    It has happened since privatisation around the country, although the companies have got very good at scheduling shifts and driver changes to mostly avoid it.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    As PB goes, so goes the nation.. :D
    And another one: Why Britain should come together and celebrate our success as one, united nation.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3742456/ROBERT-HARDMAN-Rio-2016-United-Kingdom-again.html
    We do seem to have heard rather less of the Scolympians this time.
    That is down to the EBC and teh biased media, they have been winning plenty of medals and Scotland would be around 11th or 12th in table on its own. Team GB is a fake.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Generation safe space are going to get a shock in two days according to headteachers. Finally it seems like the government are making exams tougher again. The Labour years of falling standards and lower difficulty were a joke.

    That's nothing do with Labour. The system of competing exam boards in England who explicitly advertise that if you go with them your school will get more A's sees to that.
    At my school there was a terrible year in maths at AS level, only a single A, and many fails. Switched exam boards and lo and behold, loads of people were getting scores in the high 90s, As across the board. A coincidence I'm sure.
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    Is the tag line for this new polling - "A new innovation from yougov...because we are wrong on everything else & our sample group is a joke."
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Isn't it funny how often journalists pick up on conversations we were having on here a couple of days ago?

    Jeremy Warner on John Major, National Lottery, Olympic success, picking winners and why socialism delivers mediocracy for all.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/15/british-success-at-the-olympics-is-not-just-a-national-achieveme/

    Money spent: £355m over four years - about £1.5m per year per medal.

    If we'd won no medals, the same pundits would remind us of the Thatcherite line that picking winners is a relic of failed socialist dogma and we need to leave it to the market.

    In any case, the counter-example is swimming which had its funding cut yet has won more medals in Rio than in London 2012.
    Incentives work then :)
    Just proves that you can buy medals , so the whole ethos of the games is fake and has been for a long time. Nations with cash win the medals and have all the cheats as well.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,969
    Alistair said:




    Scotland is Labour's intellectual heartland, letting it go without a fight would be the same a cutting off a leg for them. The leg may be diseased and gangrenous, but they need it. What Labour needs is policies for Scotland and to defend the Union. 55% of people voted No and recent polls put No on 53%, that is a wide enough pool of voters from which to carve 25-35% of the vote. If Labour had governed Scotland properly when they were in power at Holyrood then the SNP would never have got a look in, it feels like they haven't learned that lesson and their MSP are all a bunch of duffers that wouldn't be fit to lick the boots of Nicola and Ruth.

    Given the number of recent Labour leaders who were raised or born in Scotland are you sure its a leg you are cutting off and not its election winning head?
This discussion has been closed.