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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The NHS at 65: What do we really think of it?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited July 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The NHS at 65: What do we really think of it?

Ipsos MORI: NHS at 65 from Ipsos MORI An interesting slide show from Ipsos-MORI


Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Miliband calls in police to investigate alleged Falkirk crimes.

    He is showing the strength of Julius Caesar.

    Weeny, Weedy, Weaky.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,448
    edited July 2013
    Put simply the problem is that when people believe they're entitled to something they stop feeling appreciative for it. That's human nature I suppose.
  • Options
    eckythumpereckythumper Posts: 27
    AveryLP
    About time you returned to your desk at tory HQ and leave commenting to us grown ups
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed taking the fight to Unite?

    @RicHolden
    Henry Smith MP writes to the Police about #Falkirk, Unite and the Labour Selection. http://twitpic.com/d0xg7l

    Oh, wait...
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed follows where others lead

    ‏@GuidoFawkes
    Tories say Henry Smith MP has already reffered matter to police, Labour heard from media sources and then to get on front foot did same.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Interesting to see from slide 24 that its only since 2010 that more people have thought the NHS will get better than worse
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Looks like Ed's fighting like Mike said he would and Cameron never does

    or

    Tories say Henry Smith MP has already reffered matter to police, Labour heard from media sources and then to get on front foot did same.

    PB enjoys these scandals doesn't it....
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,448
    O/T:

    "Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

    As many as a million young people in Japan are thought to remain holed up in their homes - sometimes for decades at a time. Why?"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23182523
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    We, the British people think very differently of it than they, the PB Tories do.
    The disconnect between the right on here and the public over the NHS, the BBC, Education and so on is stark.


    And there's some dire numbers today for the Tories today on the NHS


    41% of people surveyed thought the services provided by the NHS have got worse since David Cameron became Prime Minister, compared to just 11% who thought service have got better.

    See more at: http://survation.com/2013/07/happy-65th-birthday-nhs-do-the-public-still-support-the-founding-principles/#sthash.ln3G1kub.dpuf




    68.9% of 2010 Lib Dems think the NHS has got worse under Cameron.

    6.9% of 2010 Lib Dems think it has got better under Cameron.

    So patients can die unnecessarily due to negligent care, failures in management and a refusal of regulators to take proper action, provided qualitative and uninformed popular opinion continues to think the NHS 'can only get better' under Labour?

    Let's all dance the Danny Boy dance and pretend everything is Olympic Gold in the NHS shall we?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed, the strong leader...

    @RicHolden
    Strange Labour didn't refer #Falkirk to police when it first came to light - why did they wait until @HenrySmithMP letter? Pushed around?

    Newssense™, trying hard to keep up with the PB Tories
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Looks like Ed's fighting like Mike said he would and Cameron never does

    or

    Tories say Henry Smith MP has already reffered matter to police, Labour heard from media sources and then to get on front foot did same.

    PB enjoys these scandals doesn't it....

    Reactive not Proactive.

    What a week, what a week, what a week.

  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    or then theres

    Looks like Ed's fighting like Mike said he would and Cameron never does (tim)

    OR


    Andy Bell ‏@andybell5news1m
    Ed M didn't tell me they were going to send report to police - looks like they were bounced into it @5_News

  • Options
    eckythumpereckythumper Posts: 27
    I think the most interesting thing is the Survation poll on the NHS which seems to be damning to the coalitions handling of this glorious institute.
    Also this organisation's polling makes surprising reading but if you are conservative inclined i wouldn't bother
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GuidoFawkes
    Tories referred Falkirk frauds to police yesterday. Labour HQ playing catch up with CCHQ when it comes to union bashing.

    Weak, weak, weak.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Scott_P said:

    @GuidoFawkes
    Tories referred Falkirk frauds to police yesterday. Labour HQ playing catch up with CCHQ when it comes to union bashing.

    Weak, weak, weak.

    Has one of tim's lines ever unravelled quite so quickly???

    "Looks like Ed's fighting like Mike said he would and Cameron never does"

    Tony Blair, TGWU.
  • Options
    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    - "This is the biggest single experiment in social service that the world has ever seen undertaken."

    Nope.

    One could perhaps say that these are four of the biggest experiments in social service that the world has ever seen undertaken. But "single" they most certainly ain't.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Scotland

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Wales

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_Social_Care_in_Northern_Ireland
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Day 3 or 4 on the Unite/Falkirk/Labour story.
    Yet Tim assured us on the 2nd july that "The story, like Len, is overblown."

    Can we no longer rely on farmer tim to be the purveyor of truth about Labour?
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    eckythumper said:

    AveryLP
    About time you returned to your desk at tory HQ and leave commenting to us grown ups

    Go for it, ecky.

    Take the stabilisers off your bicycle and show us your wheelies.

  • Options
    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    In the aftermath of the Falkirk affair, LAB MAJ has now lengthened to 17/12 over at Betfair. CON MAJ at 13/8 with Ladbrokes.
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    FPT O/T According to Guido the Tories referred the report to the Police yesterday..Labour playing catch up
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    AveryLP said:

    Miliband calls in police to investigate alleged Falkirk crimes.

    He is showing the strength of Julius Caesar.

    Weeny, Weedy, Weaky.

    @Avery

    LOL - a classic Mr Pole
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    it's a falkirk problem ... oh.

    Mark Wallace@wallaceme

    Lab MEP candidate stitched up by Unite is currently on #WATO - says he was threatened with disciplinary action for complaining about Unite
  • Options
    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Stuart_Dickson said:

    In the aftermath of the Falkirk affair, LAB MAJ has now lengthened to 17/12 over at Betfair. CON MAJ at 13/8 with Ladbrokes.

    Correction:
    it is in fact No Overall Majority that is as 13/8 with Ladbrokes. CON MAJ is at 4/1, with various bookies.
  • Options
    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Those slides from Ipsos-MORI are notable mainly for the lack of big movement. And, pace tim, the 'Net Satisfied' rating is higher than at any time under Blair's premiership, albeit down a shade since the 2009-2010 peak under Brown.

    That peak was itself rather strange - I wonder if it was because the financial crisis was distracting attention from the NHS?
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    From Unite's political report...candidates they supported (in some cases along with other Unions) in recent selections:


    Lewisham Deptford: Vicky Foxcroft SELECTED
    Hornsey & Wood Green: Catherine West SELECTED
    Bermondsey & Old Southwark: Gavin Edwards (Unison/Unite) DEFEATED (4th place)
    Enfield North: Annajoy David DEFEATED

    Bury North: Jane Lewis DEFEATED
    City of Chester: Chris Matheson SELECTED
    Manchester Withington: Angela Rayner (Unison) DEFEATED
    Warrington South: Sharon Connor DEFEATED
    Weaver Vale: Rebecca Long Bailey DEFEATED (third place)
    Wirral West: Christine Spriggs DEFEATED

    Brighton Kemptwon: Nancy Platts (Unite/TSSA) SELECTED
    Hove: Simon Burgess (GMB) DEFEATED

    Bristol South: Amanda Ramsay DEFEATED
    Plymouth Sutton and Devenport: Luke Pollard (GMB) SELECTED

    Birmingham Yardley: Eleonor Smith (Unison) DEFEATED
    Halesowen and co: Stephanie Peacock (GMB/Unite) SELECTED
    North Warwickshire: Mike O'Brian SELECTED
    Wolverhampton SW: Rob Marris SELECTED

    Sheffield Hallam: Martin Mayer DEFEATED

    For selection currently taking place, they are backing:

    Ilford North: Mike Hedges
    Finchley: Alan Or Bach
    Brent Central: Kate Osamor
    Lancaster: Cath Smith
    Burnley: Julie Cooper
    Pendle: Azhar Ali
    Blackpool North: Chris Webb (CWU/Unite)
    Kingswood: Rowenna Hayward (GMB)
    Stourbridge: Pete Lowe (Unison/Unite)
    Dudley South: Natasha Milward (Unison/Unite)
    Sherwood: Lachlan Morrison (UCATT)
    Amber Valley: Julia Long
    Cleethorpes: Ian Grant
    Pudsey: Jamie Hanley
    Elmet and Rothwell: Veronica King
    Dewsbury: Paula Sheriff (GMB)
    Dumfriesshire: Archie Bryburgh
    East Dunbartonshire: Alan Moir (ASLEF)
    Falkirk: Karie Murphy
    Cardiff Central: Jo Stevens (GMB)

    I can add that they have nominated Sheila Boswell in Battarsea.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Does the NHS get winter fuel allowance now then ?

    It is a system - not the best - probably not the worst.

    Worst aspect of the NHS is the religious left and their jihad against any NHS non believers - stifles debate and progress.

  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I know rabbits breed in large numbers and quickly but Cheshire is overflowig with them this week
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Hague really took the pi$$ out of labours position over a EU referendum in the commons,where was weak ed to tell us labours position on this,what we got was weak labour all over the place on a Eu referendum in the commons.

    Weak,weak,weak.
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    Arthur_PennyArthur_Penny Posts: 198
    Another Survation pollcame out today - apologies if old news:

    Headline Voting Intention Details (changes since June 2nd)

    Conservative: 23% (-2%)
    Labour: 36% (nc)
    Liberal Democrats: 10% (nc)
    UKIP: 22% (+2%)
    Others: 10% (nc)

    - See more at: http://survation.com/2013/07/latest-voting-intention-results-tories-fall-to-record-low-in-polling-results-as-support-for-ukip-remains-strong/#sthash.jGKpblUR.dpuf

    So Falkirkgate isn't (yet) having an effect
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,961
    Stuart_Dickson said:

    Stuart_Dickson said:

    In the aftermath of the Falkirk affair, LAB MAJ has now lengthened to 17/12 over at Betfair. CON MAJ at 13/8 with Ladbrokes.

    Correction:
    it is in fact No Overall Majority that is as 13/8 with Ladbrokes. CON MAJ is at 4/1, with various bookies.
    Thank God, a PB Tory multiple orgasm is something no-one should have to witness.

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Betfair latest

    Labour maj 2.48
    NOM 2.62


  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I've added details from the Survation poll to the header

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Betfair - next Uk Prime Minister

    Ed Miliband 1.87 to lay.

  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited July 2013
    Is anybody betting on the overall GE2015 outcome?

    My understanding is that very little money is going on at the moment.

    I've got longshot bets of 7/1 that Ukip will win more than one seat and 6/4 that EdM will be next PM but I haven't been into the main markets.

    What we really miss are the spreads

  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Interesting Staggers piece on what laws UNITE might have broken

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/labour-hands-falkirk-report-police-what-laws-could-unite-have-broken
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Ed will fight when he is pushed into it by Cameron..hey have you seen all those rabbits.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed's fight

    Swiftly and decisively dithered for 3 days over Watson

    Swiftly and decisively bounced into following the Tories in talking to the Police

    Weak, weak, weak.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    tim said:

    Tykejohnno said:

    Hague really took the pi$$ out of labours position over a EU referendum in the commons,where was weak ed to tell us labours position on this,what we got was weak labour all over the place on a Eu referendum in the commons.

    Weak,weak,weak.


    How's that Banging On About Europe working for the Tories?

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB
    UKIP was in 2nd place ahead of CON in Survation ITV/Mirror poll before reallocation of don't knows
    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/353069091227070464/photo/1
    Couldn't careless about the tories,I want to know what weak ed and labour policy is on a Eu referendum,with that lead like that in the latest poll,your party could be my next government.

    What I've seen of your party tim,it's all over the place on policies.

    weak,weak,weak.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    tim said:

    Mike was right and Ed will fight.

    Coffee House ‏@Spectator_CH
    ‘Len McCluskey should be facing up to his responsibilities’: Ed Miliband stands up to Unite http://specc.ie/12qtSV1

    Ed Miliband’s supporters have been arguing that he needs to show muscle on the Unite row before his opponents successfully argue that he is a weak leader in thrall to the union puppet masters. While Conservative MPs joked abut Tom Watson’s ‘Buddha’ comments in the Chamber this morning, the Labour leader did speak out about Len McCluskey and the Falkirk row. To his credit, he has shown that muscle:

    Compare and contrast to David Cameron being pushed around by his nutter wing and pandering to UKIP xenophobia

    It strikes me Ed's getting pushed around just as much as Dave. To date he'sd hidden his problem better but now Len's just kicked sand in his face, how will Ed Atlas respond ?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I think that most of them have got behind the stage of orgasms - except SeanT who gets his Viagra on the NHS
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Stuart_Dickson said:

    Stuart_Dickson said:

    In the aftermath of the Falkirk affair, LAB MAJ has now lengthened to 17/12 over at Betfair. CON MAJ at 13/8 with Ladbrokes.

    Correction:
    it is in fact No Overall Majority that is as 13/8 with Ladbrokes. CON MAJ is at 4/1, with various bookies.
    Thank God, a PB Tory multiple orgasm is something no-one should have to witness.

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed's decisive lead

    @politicshome
    @grantshapps says he is writing to Ed M on the Falkirk row "with a whole series of questions... about this whole sorry affair". @SkyNews

    Oh, wait...
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Scott_P said:

    Ed's fight

    Swiftly and decisively dithered for 3 days over Watson

    Swiftly and decisively bounced into following the Tories in talking to the Police

    Weak, weak, weak.

    It seems weak ed for a few days was begging Watson not to go.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Ed is ahowing true grit and fight, he is moving at the speed of a slow dither
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    We, the British people think very differently of it than they, the PB Tories do.
    The disconnect between the right on here and the public over the NHS, the BBC, Education and so on is stark.


    And there's some dire numbers today for the Tories today on the NHS


    41% of people surveyed thought the services provided by the NHS have got worse since David Cameron became Prime Minister, compared to just 11% who thought service have got better.

    See more at: http://survation.com/2013/07/happy-65th-birthday-nhs-do-the-public-still-support-the-founding-principles/#sthash.ln3G1kub.dpuf




    68.9% of 2010 Lib Dems think the NHS has got worse under Cameron.

    6.9% of 2010 Lib Dems think it has got better under Cameron.

    So patients can die unnecessarily due to negligent care, failures in management and a refusal of regulators to take proper action, provided qualitative and uninformed popular opinion continues to think the NHS 'can only get better' under Labour?

    Let's all dance the Danny Boy dance and pretend everything is Olympic Gold in the NHS shall we?
    The political equation is very simple for David Cameron.

    He used his family to make promises on the NHS, he broke those promises.

    After the reform debacle only 20% think NHS is safe in Cameron's hands

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/06/after-the-reform-debacle-only-20-think-nhs-is-safe-in-camerons-hands.html

    All self inflicted, exactly the same as Clegg and tuition fees.
    No, tim, the problem is the "political equation".

    What is needed is an informed public debate based on objective and independent analysis of fact.

    Until that occurs the NHS will continue to decline and patients will continue to suffer under all governments.
  • Options
    RightChuckRightChuck Posts: 110
    eckythumper said:

    AveryLP
    About time you returned to your desk at tory HQ and leave commenting to us grown ups

    That's grown up?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited July 2013
    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited July 2013
    Strange to have a poll on the NHS which asks the Welsh how much better or worse they think the NHS has got since Cameron was elected.

    Interesting to note however that Wales had the highest percentage of people thinking the NHS had got 'somewhat worse' or 'much worse'.

    http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/NHS-Full-Report.pdf
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    At what stage will the BBC start to get blamed for the fact that what the general voting public will see is Len and Ed having a row, thus confirming that Ed is not Len's puppet?
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    MikeSmithson said:

    Interesting Staggers piece on what laws UNITE might have broken

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/labour-hands-falkirk-report-police-what-laws-could-unite-have-broken

    a crime of 'uttering'

    Could only exist under Scots law.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    SO..dunno..at what stage do you think it will happen
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    What else would you expect? Cameron preferred to talk Unite and Len at PMQ rather than address questions on Gove's primary schools places cock-ups and the fact that more and more people in one of the world's wealthiest countries are being forced into using food banks. It's all about priorities, isn't it?

  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    A lot of people in the worlds wealthiest country,by far, use food banks..
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    richardDodd said:

    SO..dunno..at what stage do you think it will happen

    Once it becomes clear that the story has made no difference to anything, I imagine. So probably some time next week.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    From the people who gave us Mandelson and Campbell that's just so funny.

    11/10 for chutzpah Jonathan
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    We, the British people think very differently of it than they, the PB Tories do.
    The disconnect between the right on here and the public over the NHS, the BBC, Education and so on is stark.


    And there's some dire numbers today for the Tories today on the NHS


    41% of people surveyed thought the services provided by the NHS have got worse since David Cameron became Prime Minister, compared to just 11% who thought service have got better.

    See more at: http://survation.com/2013/07/happy-65th-birthday-nhs-do-the-public-still-support-the-founding-principles/#sthash.ln3G1kub.dpuf




    68.9% of 2010 Lib Dems think the NHS has got worse under Cameron.

    6.9% of 2010 Lib Dems think it has got better under Cameron.

    So patients can die unnecessarily due to negligent care, failures in management and a refusal of regulators to take proper action, provided qualitative and uninformed popular opinion continues to think the NHS 'can only get better' under Labour?

    Let's all dance the Danny Boy dance and pretend everything is Olympic Gold in the NHS shall we?
    The political equation is very simple for David Cameron.

    He used his family to make promises on the NHS, he broke those promises.

    After the reform debacle only 20% think NHS is safe in Cameron's hands

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/06/after-the-reform-debacle-only-20-think-nhs-is-safe-in-camerons-hands.html

    All self inflicted, exactly the same as Clegg and tuition fees.
    No, tim, the problem is the "political equation".

    What is needed is an informed public debate based on objective and independent analysis of fact.

    Until that occurs the NHS will continue to decline and patients will continue to suffer under all governments.
    Sadly Cameron screwed any chance he had on that by breaking his word on a reorganisation and keeping his idiot pledge to keep all District General Hospitals open, he got it the wrong way round.

    So we are left with An informed debate where the homeopathy believer Jeremy Hunt seeks to blame foreigners for the A&E
    QED

    I hereby find you guilty of uttering.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

    What's most interesting about this is that the issue has been propelled to the status of major news story not by Ed Miliband (who might have had an interest in doing so) but by Len McCluskey with his very aggressive attack on Labour's leadership that the BBC is fairly headlining on its website: "Union boss at war with Labour Party".

    Ed Miliband has to fight this one now. I disagreed with OGH a couple of days ago about the significance of this, but he was right and I was wrong. This has now become a major news story and if it doesn't result in a clear victory for Ed Miliband, he's in desperate trouble.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    SouthamObserver said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    What else would you expect? Cameron preferred to talk Unite and Len at PMQ rather than address questions on Gove's primary schools places cock-ups and the fact that more and more people in one of the world's wealthiest countries are being forced into using food banks. It's all about priorities, isn't it?

    And Labour's are ?

    Maybe if there wasn't a policy blank sheet there'd be something more constructive to discuss.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    SO..You and newsense think it will just fade away..heheh
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Hmm, maybe this will lead to existing selections being re-opened. I'd initially thought that unlikely, but the police angle could change that.

    What a pity Ed didn't heed the warnings about this months ago.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited July 2013
    SouthamObserver said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    What else would you expect? Cameron preferred to talk Unite and Len at PMQ rather than address questions on Gove's primary schools places cock-ups and the fact that more and more people in one of the world's wealthiest countries are being forced into using food banks. It's all about priorities, isn't it?

    Of course Cameron will comment and try to derive political gain. But for Tories to get involved directly is odd. Why does the MP for Crawley need to get involved in a Labour parliamentary selection in Falkirk? I don't get it. If it has to be done, why doesn't the Scottish Tory leader do it?

    Odd.

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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited July 2013
    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    If you or anyone else knows of potential lawbreaking then go to the police.

    Or do you think it should remain unreported under some shady agreement between parties?

    I wonder if Labour would have bothered if they hadn't been bounced into going to Plod by a Tory's actions? Somehow I doubt it..
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed, strong leader
    Whatever the truth, it looks very bad for any party leadership to look like it doesn’t have a handle on what is going on, and is reacting to events rather than shaping them.
    http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2013/07/why-has-labour-handed-its-falkirk-file-to-the-police/
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Labour refuses to rule out EU referendum

    William Hague mocks Labour 'confusion' as shadow foreign secretary says decision will be based on national interest

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/05/labour-refuses-rule-out-eu-referendum?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    @tim,you will look silly if labour do a U-turn on this.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,448
    "The BBC is to suspend 3D programming for an indefinite period due to a "lack of public appetite" for the technology.

    Kim Shillinglaw, the BBC's head of 3D, said it has "not taken off" with audiences who find it "quite hassly"."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23195479
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    antifrank said:

    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

    What's most interesting about this is that the issue has been propelled to the status of major news story not by Ed Miliband (who might have had an interest in doing so) but by Len McCluskey with his very aggressive attack on Labour's leadership that the BBC is fairly headlining on its website: "Union boss at war with Labour Party".

    Ed Miliband has to fight this one now. I disagreed with OGH a couple of days ago about the significance of this, but he was right and I was wrong. This has now become a major news story and if it doesn't result in a clear victory for Ed Miliband, he's in desperate trouble.

    EdM has probably now got two problems.

    The headline heart and soul of the party one and the behind the scenes where's the money going to come from.

    If Ed has a bad bust up with his biggest funder ( not forgetting constituency footsoldiers) and the Bank of Coop is constrained on lending Labour's coffers could be in a sorry state for GE 2015.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    What else would you expect? Cameron preferred to talk Unite and Len at PMQ rather than address questions on Gove's primary schools places cock-ups and the fact that more and more people in one of the world's wealthiest countries are being forced into using food banks. It's all about priorities, isn't it?

    Cameron is clear that no associations of his can damage him soon is he?

    Dunno, tim.

    With the strong arm of the law collaring those involved in Falkirk, both leaders might end up having to find time in their busy schedules for 'visiting duties'.

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    TheWatcher said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    If you or anyone else knows of potential lawbreaking then go to the police.

    Or do you think it should remain unreported under some shady agreement between parties?

    I wonder if Labour would have bothered if they hadn't been bounced into going to Plod by a Tory's actions? Somehow I doubt it..
    If you were motivated to report a suspected crime out of a pure sense of civic duty, I would have thought you probably wouldn't write press release on the subject. Especially when you have debate to promote. Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Guido Fawkes ✔ @GuidoFawkes

    Tories asking police to investigate a further 40 seats, says Shapps.

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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The US economy added a net 195,000 new jobs in June, official figures show.

    The figure was well above market expectations for just 165,000. Revisions to data for April and May added a further 70,000 jobs to previous estimates.

    The unemployment rate held steady at 7.6% of the workforce, according to the data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    The dollar jumped on the news, the euro falling two-thirds of a cent to $1.283.

    The news was received positively on Wall Street, where the Dow, S&P 500, and Nasdaq all trended slightly higher.

    Economists had been paying close attention to the number this month due to concerns that the US Federal Reserve might begin to end its policy of propping up the US economy by keeping interest rates extraordinarily low.

    Comments by chairmen Ben Bernanke in June that indicated that positive economic data in the coming months might lead to "tapering" of the Fed's bond buying had roiled markets.

    The yield on 10-year Treasury bonds - the US government's cost of borrowing, and an indication of market expectations about the Fed's future interest rate moves - jumped as the jobs report was published.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23199688
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,416
    My own personal experience (which is limited to stories/moans from my midwife sister, attending the birth of my daughter , operation on a broken arm and visits to GPs on various riveting subjects as gout, chest pains and achilles heel and calf trouble) is that it is OK in terms of treatment and poor in terms of adminstration and politeness.

    Where it does perform better is obviously the absence of unseemley scens about getting out insurance policies/chequebooks or credit cards when you enter a hospital and also I think overall healthcare does cost less for the same treatment level than most other countries (if you factor in insurance admin ,middlemen , inflated salaries for medical staff abroad, profiteering)

    I think the tories do not appreciate the latter paragraph and Labour cannot see the former paragraph points. If woudl be good if we decided once and for all that a) the NHS is a good overall system that is here to stay and b) it is not 'wonderful nor ' full of 'angels' and that it needs to have a good look at itself from the inside and reform where necessary
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    tim said:

    Tykejohnno said:

    Labour refuses to rule out EU referendum

    William Hague mocks Labour 'confusion' as shadow foreign secretary says decision will be based on national interest

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/05/labour-refuses-rule-out-eu-referendum?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    @tim,you will look silly if labour do a U-turn on this.


    Hardly, I fully expect it.
    Your assumption that Lib Sem or Labours are bothered is where you are going wrong.
    It's only the Tory Salafists who are obsessed
    It will be fun if it happens,labour banging on about Europe,where tories go,labour follow = lol

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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    Closure, moved by Sir George Young, approved by 305-30.
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2013
    Peter Luff and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown will be tellers for the noes in the division on the second reading of the Bill in order to ensure that there is a division.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Guido Fawkes ✔ @GuidoFawkes

    Will you be declaring that you are paid by Unite to lobby on their behalf? @OwenJones8



    Owen Jones @OwenJones84

    On @BBCNews Channel at 3.30pm about the Labour / Falkirk mess


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    rodwarnerrodwarner Posts: 8
    Sod the NHS - get rid and give us a modern health system responsive to the patients not the bureacrats, messianic saps and poor old Ken (I'm looking backwards to Attlee)Loach. Re Ed Milliband's current woes - if he steps up and uses some finesse, he could possibly turn the situation round. McClusky looks what he is and could be seen off but this would require not just courage but subtlety. Let's see what Ed' made of, beyond the usual yah boos from all sides of the playground. I can remember saying that no one should underrate him when he got the job and Henry Manson and co were rending their garments and gnashing their teeth. He fits the bill both ways - surprise winner or fall guy. But the sun shines and the day beckons...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Jonathan said:

    TheWatcher said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    If you or anyone else knows of potential lawbreaking then go to the police.

    Or do you think it should remain unreported under some shady agreement between parties?

    I wonder if Labour would have bothered if they hadn't been bounced into going to Plod by a Tory's actions? Somehow I doubt it..
    If you were motivated to report a suspected crime out of a pure sense of civic duty, I would have thought you probably wouldn't write press release on the subject. Especially when you have debate to promote. Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age.
    What debate ? Labour have said nothing, there isn't a debate, just a vacuum. Vacuums don't last, it's getting filled with Ed is weak, since for want of something better there's only Labour's personalities to discuss.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    Jonathan said:

    If you were motivated to report a suspected crime out of a pure sense of civic duty, I would have thought you probably wouldn't write press release on the subject. Especially when you have debate to promote.

    Unless you have a book to promote, of course. See Watson, Tom.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited July 2013
    Alanbrooke said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheWatcher said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    If you or anyone else knows of potential lawbreaking then go to the police.

    Or do you think it should remain unreported under some shady agreement between parties?

    I wonder if Labour would have bothered if they hadn't been bounced into going to Plod by a Tory's actions? Somehow I doubt it..
    If you were motivated to report a suspected crime out of a pure sense of civic duty, I would have thought you probably wouldn't write press release on the subject. Especially when you have debate to promote. Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age.
    What debate ? Labour have said nothing, there isn't a debate, just a vacuum. Vacuums don't last, it's getting filled with Ed is weak, since for want of something better there's only Labour's personalities to discuss.
    Referring to the debate in Parliament. But never mind, keep trotting out the spoon-fed "weak" line. It's so utterly engaging. I have no doubt you will convince everyone here, perhaps even yourself.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    richardDodd said:

    SO..You and newsense think it will just fade away..heheh

    Obviously, I would not expect you to understand the point I am making. But, no, I do not think the story will fade away. I think the story is a different one: Ed v Len. As Antifrank says, it is a battle that Ed cannot afford to lose. Which tells me that he probably won't. However, if he does, as Antifrank also says, he is finished as Labour leader. And that, for me, would be a handy consolation prize.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SouthamObserver said:

    Ed v Len. As Antifrank says, it is a battle that Ed cannot afford to lose. Which tells me that he probably won't.

    What does a 'win' look like?
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    Order for the Second Reading of the European Union (Referendum) Bill agreed to by 304-0.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2013
    SO..Ed must be comforted to know he has staunch supporters like you behind him.
    Ed v Len..lets forget about possible fraud and other charges that might be brought then..just a simple battle between a Union Baron, (Labour Paymaster) and Steely jawed Ed..
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Len McCluskey and Tom Watson started their working lives by sharing a flat.

    Are there any markets available for betting that they will end their working lives sharing a cell?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    antifrank said:

    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

    What's most interesting about this is that the issue has been propelled to the status of major news story not by Ed Miliband (who might have had an interest in doing so) but by Len McCluskey with his very aggressive attack on Labour's leadership that the BBC is fairly headlining on its website: "Union boss at war with Labour Party".

    Ed Miliband has to fight this one now. I disagreed with OGH a couple of days ago about the significance of this, but he was right and I was wrong. This has now become a major news story and if it doesn't result in a clear victory for Ed Miliband, he's in desperate trouble.

    Spot on. Ed has to win. I suspect that the vast majority of union leaders, shadow ministers and Labour MPs recognise that too. There do not seem to be many people spinning on behalf of McCluskey right now. If Owen Jones is the only one prepared to do it, then Len could be in a bit of bother. He does have the threat of taking Unite's money away, but for all his bluster it is very unlikely that he would.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    richardDodd said:

    SO..Ed must be comforted to know he has staunch supporters like you behind him.

    I have never been a fan of his.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @IsabelHardman
    Hague now deep in conversation with Douglas Alexander. Presumably Alexander asking him for tips on how to U-turn on your European policy.

    Strong, swift and decisive dithering from Ed
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    @tim
    I'd say that there is now a 50% chance of this Bill being enacted. As for pointless legislation, the last Labour government specialised in it, the Fiscal Responsibility Act 2010 and the Child Poverty Act 2010 being just some of the more ludicrous examples.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    SouthamObserver said:

    richardDodd said:

    SO..You and newsense think it will just fade away..heheh

    Obviously, I would not expect you to understand the point I am making. But, no, I do not think the story will fade away. I think the story is a different one: Ed v Len. As Antifrank says, it is a battle that Ed cannot afford to lose. Which tells me that he probably won't. However, if he does, as Antifrank also says, he is finished as Labour leader. And that, for me, would be a handy consolation prize.
    The real battle for the heart of Labour is not that between Len and Ed.

    It is between Owen and Dan.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Jonathan said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    Jonathan said:

    TheWatcher said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd tactics by the Tories. When a rival party gets into this sort of internal pain, surely the best plan is to rise above it, especially when you are in government. At most tut-tut disapprovingly from afar.

    There must be the risk that all might not be perfect in their own back yard. Why open yourself up to scrutiny? What comes around goes around.

    They must be bored or lost for something better to do in CCHQ.

    If you or anyone else knows of potential lawbreaking then go to the police.

    Or do you think it should remain unreported under some shady agreement between parties?

    I wonder if Labour would have bothered if they hadn't been bounced into going to Plod by a Tory's actions? Somehow I doubt it..
    If you were motivated to report a suspected crime out of a pure sense of civic duty, I would have thought you probably wouldn't write press release on the subject. Especially when you have debate to promote. Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age.
    What debate ? Labour have said nothing, there isn't a debate, just a vacuum. Vacuums don't last, it's getting filled with Ed is weak, since for want of something better there's only Labour's personalities to discuss.
    Referring to the debate in Parliament. But never mind, keep trotting out the spoon-fed "weak" line. It's so utterly engaging. I have no doubt you will convince everyone here, perhaps even yourself.
    hmmm not your usual sharp self Jonathan. You can move away from the personality yadda yadda at any time by putting some Labour policies on the table. The focus on Ed comes about since he's not giving the UK anything else to judge him on bar personality politics. At the moment the gaps are being filled in for him and on battles not of his choosing. Sometimes sitting in the trenches just means you've become a static target.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    SO..Obviously I did not expect you to get my point, which is..Ed must be comforted to know he has staunch supporters like you behind him..poor sap.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Nadine Dorries MP @NadineDorriesMP

    Today was a great day to be an MP

    Tories united ;-)
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @EricPickles
    Just thanked a small group of Labour MPs for turning up in person to abstain in the referendum bill. Most of Lab took the day off
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Labour's supporters could not care less if Labour has been infiltrated by Unite.

    Are schoolteachers, human rights lawyers, BBC journalists, postal voters called Khan living on the sixth floor of a Sparkhill bungalow, Dundee slum tenants, and public sector employees all abruptly going to stop voting Labour because of this, this, this scandalous betrayal of their ideals and principles?

    I am prepared to find out I am wrong about this, but the whole matter strikes me as electorally completely, utterly, achingly insignificant. While it will entertain Tories, it will not cost Labour a single vote. Not one.

    This may make Miliband look and feel a bit silly in the Commons for a week or two, but he can deal with that. Blair looked silly in the Commons lying all the time, and it never harmed him electorally.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2013
    @Southam - But what do you mean by 'win'? Unite storming out of the playground and refusing to play any more (and taking their £2.5m a year pocket money with them)?

    At best they'll kiss and make up, issue a statement agreeing that Ed Miliband is leader of the Labour Party after all, and Len will promise to be a good boy in future. But that will still leave Labour looking as though the unions pull the strings, if they are still bankrolling the party.

    Alternatively, they bust-up big time and bankrupt the party. That's not much of a win.

    The truth of the matter is that Ed's Buddha-like inner calm means he's left it too late. Whatever he does now, it will look as though he was pushed into it by events outside his control. It will also leave a legacy of fraternal bitterness in the Labour movement. The party is hardly going to survive this lot without recriminations and disunity - and that's before they start getting into the nitty-gritty of difficult policy decisions.

    All highly satisfactory, from my point of view .
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Bond_James_Bond said:

    Labour's supporters could not care less if Labour has been infiltrated by Unite.

    Are schoolteachers, human rights lawyers, BBC journalists, postal voters called Khan living on the sixth floor of a Sparkhill bungalow, Dundee slum tenants, and public sector employees all abruptly going to stop voting Labour because of this, this, this scandalous betrayal of their ideals and principles?

    I am prepared to find out I am wrong about this, but the whole matter strikes me as electorally completely, utterly, achingly insignificant. While it will entertain Tories, it will not cost Labour a single vote. Not one.

    This may make Miliband look and feel a bit silly in the Commons for a week or two, but he can deal with that. Blair looked silly in the Commons lying all the time, and it never harmed him electorally.

    The *weak* thing didn't do john major much harm.

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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Those poor tea party tories. Always destined to be out of touch.

    After the most damaging and serious f**k ups imaginable the public still overwhelmingly backs the NHS.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    richardDodd said:

    SO..Obviously I did not expect you to get my point, which is..Ed must be comforted to know he has staunch supporters like you behind him..poor sap.

    Let me assure you that all your points are very easy to understand. Their lack of depth makes them immediately accessible.

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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Lord Ashcroft @LordAshcroft

    Labour offering a referendum on Europe before the next GE seems increasingly inevitable .

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    SO, I do try to keep things simple for you, glad you appreciate it.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Rob Marchant @rob_marchant

    Don't usually agree with John Harris, but today I do: Labour is leaving the political foreground dangerously empty http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/tom-watson-resignation-labour …

    @Alanbrooke,it seems you have it spot on.

This discussion has been closed.