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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Cyclefree on the perils of hubris

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Cyclefree on the perils of hubris

“It’s the economy, stupid” has been the default position for electoral campaigns for seemingly forever. It was fundamentally the basis on which Remain campaigned. It appears to be the reason why the Tories are confident that a Corbyn-led Labour party cannot win, not just because of Corbyn himself but because it will be easy to point at how Labour will ruin the economy.

Read the full story here


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    Thank you for another interesting contribution Miss Cyclefree.

    That picture still pains me, why I chose it for this thread, I'll never know.
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    If only Dave backed LEAVE!

    Thank you for another interesting contribution Miss Cyclefree.

    That picture still pains me, why I chose it for this thread, I'll never know.

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    3rd like China
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited August 2016
    What's going on in the triathlon? Everyone is wearing a processed cheese coloured swimming hat.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    British sprinters about to start the quadrennial drop-the-baton competition.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    It's a good article from Cyclefree but I take issue about the election if Corbyn remains in charge of Labour. "The economy, stupid", isn't quite right. What people really want is security, of which a sound economy forms a large part. But cultural, physical and political security also matters, which is why Remain were able to win. It's also why Labour can't win in 2020 with Corbyn in charge: because he is on the wrong side of all of those questions with the possible exception of physical security as applied to health. Someone like him cannot win unless the population feels it has nothing to lose by going down that route - and there isn't time for that to happen (and even then, I suspect that it wouldn't be to the far left that the country would necessarily turn).
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Great article, very much along the lines of what I was thinking. I'd add that Remain had the issue of their leader, Dave, calling the EU crap in recent history and has previously vetoed crap EU measures. It meant the Remain side had to accept the basic Eurosceptic argument of the EU being crap far too early and far too easily. After that it was too hard to change enough people's minds to sell a positive vision of the EU. It rang hollow for too many people and, as you point out, the positives (four freedoms) were either seen as negative by too many people or accepted as having drawbacks by the remain side.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @JosiasJessop FPT

    I try to be transparent where I have differentiated insight so people can judge for themselves. If you'd rather I wasn't then I won't be. But "friends" is often a euphemism that covers all sorts of different relationships.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    'This twit is precisely the kind of Remainer who gives Remainiacs a bad name. He is desperate for everything to collapse. And good news is discounted, or explained away. Any bad news is eagerly seized on as total vindication. Wanker. '

    What amazes me is how this complete garbage gets past the editors. Same with so much stuff I read on newspaper websites. Are they that short of people who can write balanced copy?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited August 2016
    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    3rd in triathlon right now...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    I see drafting is allowed and taking place on the bikes (Think it was back in 2012, though not for ironman). Suits the strong runners I guess.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    taffys said:

    'This twit is precisely the kind of Remainer who gives Remainiacs a bad name. He is desperate for everything to collapse. And good news is discounted, or explained away. Any bad news is eagerly seized on as total vindication. Wanker. '

    What amazes me is how this complete garbage gets past the editors. Same with so much stuff I read on newspaper websites. Are they that short of people who can write balanced copy?

    I get really irked when crap clickbait or poorly researched articles appear in the Times. It's behind a paywall FFS.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    SeanT said:

    For MAX from the last thread

    That guy Samuel Tombs from "Pantheon" - quoted in the Times piece - has form. Read his Twitter feed. It's relentlessly pro-European, near hysterical in places. He was posting crap like this a few hours before they counted the vote

    @samueltombs
    Four reasons to think the #EURef polls likely have understated #Remain support...

    A few days after, this was his position

    @samueltombs Jun 29
    The EU won't compromise. But pub. opinion will change as economy falters. A 2nd ref would yield a different response

    From then on it's been a solid Twitter-wall of histrionic REMOANIAN bed-wetting.

    This twit is precisely the kind of Remainer who gives Remainiacs a bad name. He is desperate for everything to collapse. And good news is discounted, or explained away. Any bad news is eagerly seized on as total vindication. Wanker.

    I didnt have time to look him up, but from his comments in the Times it was clear he subscribes to the worst kind of bitter remain loser brigade ideas of hoping this country will fall apart.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    I'm looking for at least 10% with a steamroller about :)
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Pulpstar said:

    I see drafting is allowed and taking place on the bikes (Think it was back in 2012, though not for ironman). Suits the strong runners I guess.

    What's this? I know nothing about this event.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880
    Charles said:

    @JosiasJessop FPT

    I try to be transparent where I have differentiated insight so people can judge for themselves. If you'd rather I wasn't then I won't be. But "friends" is often a euphemism that covers all sorts of different relationships.

    I didn't mean it in any way other than how it was written.

    But your evidence, so far, is rather weak. Again, documentation would be the best way of sorting it. I'd expect a project with any public funding would have oodles of it.
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    I agree with Cyclefree's logical article. Case well made. There is a 6th point that I would add.

    6. Wrong sales people fronting the campaign.
    Cameron became the main front man even though the key voter group (for REMAIN) was Labour GE 2015 voters. The back up front man was Osborne, who had personal ratings in the gutter, e.g. 2% of all voters rated him on Leadership. As the campaign developed, Cameron's ratings fell further, yet REMAIN stuck with these two.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    I know a chap who invested in Greek debt when it was at eye watering rates, he made out like a bandit and was up significantly on the whole lot even after the soft defaults.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good piece, Miss Cyclefree. I agree with most of it but would add a slight caveat to the hubris argument regarding the forthcoming General Election. The electoral system insulates Labour from total catastrophe and makes SDP2 harder to see happening. However, it also helps the Conservatives.

    If we had the demented drunkenness of proportional representation then both Corbyn-Labour and the Conservatives would be in rather more precarious positions.

    Even during the campaign people (most here) pointed out the idiocy of the 'Little Englander' line [democracy lesson 1: don't insult 89% of the electorate], and the potential for the 'back of the queue' line to backfire.

    Yet it never seemed to occur to Cameron or Remain more generally. This was absolutely their referendum to lose, and they set about the task with gusto.
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    Brownlee brothers giving it max power. Hopefully not doing too much too soon.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    WRT Corbyn, it's not just the economy. It's Defence, Immigration, terrorism, where he's on the wrong side of public opinion. And, his Labour opponents are on the wrong side of public opinion over the EU.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    edited August 2016
    Dutch and American women win the drop-the-baton competition!
    GB women safely though. Men up next.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Of the five points above, how many of them is Hillary getting wrong in the US at the moment. By my count at least four.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    PlatoSaid said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I see drafting is allowed and taking place on the bikes (Think it was back in 2012, though not for ironman). Suits the strong runners I guess.

    What's this? I know nothing about this event.
    If you're following someone on a bike you use about 40% less power if you can get your wheel in close due to them pushing air out the way. Migratory birds use a similiar principle.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited August 2016
    Ben Shapiro, former Breitbart editor, calls Donald Trump a "turd tornado" (start at 1.48)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-fanAsrY_s#t=1m48s

    Is there a way to get the link to work here when it has "#t=1m48s" on the end of it?

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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    I make no secret of my admiration for Ms. Cyclefree's written skills <3. Persuasive article, as usual.

    In terms of the post-EUref strategy, I feel the key ingredient is the media, who are almost uniformly awful. That's both sides - from the hysterically anti-EU Express to the comically doleful FT. I'm not sure that they are capable of mediating a sensible, adult conversation with the electorate on such a complex topic.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,214
    Fine article (as always) but, if I may ask her, how did Cyclefree eventually vote on June 23rd? She appeared totally torn before leaving for hols.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    edited August 2016
    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    You mean, the best that happens is you get your money back?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    More on TeamGB in triathlon - they've wiped every surface with disinfectant daily in training camp, taken their own nutritionist/cooks and used antibacterials all over to make sure they never got sick.

    That's how to do it. Last time one of them got sick.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    John_M said:

    I make no secret of my admiration for Ms. Cyclefree's written skills <3. Persuasive article, as usual.</p>

    You lounge lizard!

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I don't think Theresa May is the kind of person who is likely to succumb to hubris, nor can she and her ministers be in any doubt as to the massive challenges they face. Admittedly Labour seem almost completely irrelevant to the political debate at the moment, but that's a different point.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. F, that sounds mental. And makes me want to buy the book :p

    My Twitter lists [that's usually how I check things] are full of retweets of Trump's Mr. Brexit utterance, usually with a following comment about how racist and ruined the country/people within it are.

    ....

    It was a 50/50 split [well, 52/48, but you know what I mean]. Do people really think the majority of their countrymen are bigots?

    Try not to reply to such things as I prefer to keep off politics on Twitter.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    John_M said:

    I make no secret of my admiration for Ms. Cyclefree's written skills <3. Persuasive article, as usual.

    In terms of the post-EUref strategy, I feel the key ingredient is the media, who are almost uniformly awful. That's both sides - from the hysterically anti-EU Express to the comically doleful FT. I'm not sure that they are capable of mediating a sensible, adult conversation with the electorate on such a complex topic.</p>

    Agree completely with that, and of course Ms Cyclefree's thoughtful and high quality article.

    Most media seem to be in a race to the bottom when it comes to quality of their research and writing these days. The writing by amateurs on this site is a least equal to most of it.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    The first pop video out of the DPRK

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twQKilaHBro
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Oof, both US and Dutch women out of the relay. Might be a sneaky silver on offer now.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    I'm looking for at least 10% with a steamroller about :)
    Something like MedicX buys fits out and rents GP surgeries to the NHS. As close to government backed income as you'll get. Not much capital growth but you'll make 7%+ dividend yield for a pretty safe but illiquid investment.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Dromedary said:

    John_M said:

    I make no secret of my admiration for Ms. Cyclefree's written skills <3. Persuasive article, as usual.</p>

    You lounge lizard!

    I am not too old to crush on an intelligent, eloquent woman, it's the 21st century equivalent of courtly love :).
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    One vote with the Tories = Tory. Jez was rebelling against Tory Blair.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    I know a chap who invested in Greek debt when it was at eye watering rates, he made out like a bandit and was up significantly on the whole lot even after the soft defaults.
    Sure. For people with a high risk tolerance there is always money to be made. But it's never a sure bet - which is how your recommendation came across.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sean_F said:

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
    Indeed - and Sparta wasn't anyone's idea of a picnic. I was always very curious about a well known 70s brand of chocolate box named after them. They were horrible - all hard centres, but stuck around for yrs. The sort of gift to make your heart sink.

    http://www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/16-pictures-of-wonderful-old-terrys-chocolate-boxes-do-you-remember-any-of-them/
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Eagles, fine picture choice for Corbyn too.

    Mr. 1000, only watched the first half-minute or so. Worth reminding people that North Korea has actual concentration camps.

    Dialogue's a good thing, but when nuclear missiles are being developed I'm uncertain whether an inaugural pop video is the wisest move.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited August 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    More on TeamGB in triathlon - they've wiped every surface with disinfectant daily in training camp, taken their own nutritionist/cooks and used antibacterials all over to make sure they never got sick.

    That's how to do it. Last time one of them got sick.

    That's ridiculous. If its prolonged.. that's how they will get sick because their bodies are not exposed to bacteria..
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    taffys said:

    'This twit is precisely the kind of Remainer who gives Remainiacs a bad name. He is desperate for everything to collapse. And good news is discounted, or explained away. Any bad news is eagerly seized on as total vindication. Wanker. '

    What amazes me is how this complete garbage gets past the editors. Same with so much stuff I read on newspaper websites. Are they that short of people who can write balanced copy?

    Probably down to money, Mr. Taffys. Newspapers don't have a lot of it these days and so can't afford to employ good journalists anymore. For example, someone posted on here a while back that the average age of journalists at the Economist was 24. Much of the copy in the so-called quality papers these days is just rehashed press-releases accompanied by op-ed pieces from a few well paid people.

    What gets right up-my nose is the fact that there is seems to be no sub-editing done. Nobody seems to read the the stories to check that they are coherent and grammatically correct before they are published. That and the fact, with the Telegraph at least, the headline is frequently misleading.

    As, Miss Plato, says we pay for this. I wouldn't but I fear divorce would follow if I deprived Herself of her crossword.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    The main Project Fear Campaign was by Vote Leave and UKIP - Project Fear of Mass Immigration was the one which tipped the balance.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    edited August 2016
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    I know a chap who invested in Greek debt when it was at eye watering rates, he made out like a bandit and was up significantly on the whole lot even after the soft defaults.
    Sure. For people with a high risk tolerance there is always money to be made. But it's never a sure bet - which is how your recommendation came across.
    Back then it wasn't a sure bet. In today's climate it is a sure bet, the ECB are already pumping €80bn per month into EMU debt, that is probably going to increase which means bond prices will go up, over the long haul the risk of bankruptcy has to be close to nil, obviously the 3% yield reflects that, but in a world of negative rates, 3% guaranteed is pretty solid.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    You mean, the best that happens is you get your money back?
    We did very well playing an equity mandate that behaved like a debt portfolio.... my foundation's fund - which far smarter people than I invest - has equity upside, debt downside and a 4.5% cash yield thanks to canny stock selection.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    "No wonder London was the only part of England and Wales to vote convincingly for Remain."

    If you only consider the 10 aggregated regions of England and Wales, yes. But 74% voted for remain in Cambridge and 70% did in Oxford.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    edited August 2016
    Wow, the British men got the baton round!
    Both teams in the final, with the British women in with a great chance of a medal - they're probably second favourites behind the excellent Jamaicans.
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    DeClareDeClare Posts: 483
    Remain lost the argument because they failed to sell the EU in a positive light, the EU already has a terrible press, for example they issue 'directives' the leaders are unappealing foreigners, home come a Briton is never allowed to become President of the EU when we were the second largest country in it? and they are always reputed to be wasteful, undemocratic and autocratic.
    What the Remain side should have done is give us good reasons to stay in the EU, tell us what the EU is going to do for us in the future etc. Instead all they did is issue scare stories and even when these were roundly ridiculed, they continued regardless.
    Imagine a soap powder company advertising it's product not by saying how good it is but by suggesting that using anybody else's will leave your clothes dirty and make you a smelly tramp. Such a campaign would be doomed to ridicule and failure and it's the same with politics.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited August 2016
    perdix said:

    The main Project Fear Campaign was by Vote Leave and UKIP - Project Fear of Mass Immigration was the one which tipped the balance.

    It's hardly Project Fear given net migration reached 651k in the last two years. Or is there some other definition of 'mass immigration' of which I am unaware? What would constitute 'mass immigration' in your world?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited August 2016

    PlatoSaid said:

    More on TeamGB in triathlon - they've wiped every surface with disinfectant daily in training camp, taken their own nutritionist/cooks and used antibacterials all over to make sure they never got sick.

    That's how to do it. Last time one of them got sick.

    That's ridiculous. If its prolonged.. that's how they will get sick because their bodies are not exposed to bacteria..
    Rubbish - you end up with a very robust constitution from playing in dirt, eating food dropped on the floor and having the windows open as a kid. I speak from experience :lol:

    Going abroad and zapping every bug stops you getting caught by an alien lifeform. Along with not drinking the water or brushing your teeth with it.

    If I'd the foresight - I'd follow TeamGB's tactics to avoid a day or two of squits. Took me almost three weeks to be struck down in rural Morocco to get caught.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Sean_F said:

    WRT Corbyn, it's not just the economy. It's Defence, Immigration, terrorism, where he's on the wrong side of public opinion. And, his Labour opponents are on the wrong side of public opinion over the EU.

    Apart from that, Labour are in touch, though.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    For MAX from the last thread

    That guy Samuel Tombs from "Pantheon" - quoted in the Times piece - has form. Read his Twitter feed. It's relentlessly pro-European, near hysterical in places. He was posting crap like this a few hours before they counted the vote

    @samueltombs
    Four reasons to think the #EURef polls likely have understated #Remain support...

    A few days after, this was his position

    @samueltombs Jun 29
    The EU won't compromise. But pub. opinion will change as economy falters. A 2nd ref would yield a different response

    From then on it's been a solid Twitter-wall of histrionic REMOANIAN bed-wetting.

    This twit is precisely the kind of Remainer who gives Remainiacs a bad name. He is desperate for everything to collapse. And good news is discounted, or explained away. Any bad news is eagerly seized on as total vindication. Wanker.

    I didnt have time to look him up, but from his comments in the Times it was clear he subscribes to the worst kind of bitter remain loser brigade ideas of hoping this country will fall apart.
    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    For MAX from the last thread

    That guy Samuel Tombs from "Pantheon" - quoted in the Times piece - has form. Read his Twitter feed. It's relentlessly pro-European, near hysterical in places. He was posting crap like this a few hours before they counted the vote

    @samueltombs
    Four reasons to think the #EURef polls likely have understated #Remain support...

    A few days after, this was his position

    @samueltombs Jun 29
    The EU won't compromise. But pub. opinion will change as economy falters. A 2nd ref would yield a different response

    From then on it's been a solid Twitter-wall of histrionic REMOANIAN bed-wetting.

    This twit is precisely the kind of Remainer who gives Remainiacs a bad name. He is desperate for everything to collapse. And good news is discounted, or explained away. Any bad news is eagerly seized on as total vindication. Wanker.

    I didnt have time to look him up, but from his comments in the Times it was clear he subscribes to the worst kind of bitter remain loser brigade ideas of hoping this country will fall apart.
    He does seem to be desperate to argue that good economic news somehow doesn't count.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    You mean, the best that happens is you get your money back?
    We did very well playing an equity mandate that behaved like a debt portfolio.... my foundation's fund - which far smarter people than I invest - has equity upside, debt downside and a 4.5% cash yield thanks to canny stock selection.
    I'm just kidding around.
    When I meet pension fund trustees I always ask them how much they have in government bonds, aka "return free risk".
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    I wonder how many people have read the Five President's report?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258

    It's a good article from Cyclefree but I take issue about the election if Corbyn remains in charge of Labour. "The economy, stupid", isn't quite right. What people really want is security, of which a sound economy forms a large part. But cultural, physical and political security also matters, which is why Remain were able to win. It's also why Labour can't win in 2020 with Corbyn in charge: because he is on the wrong side of all of those questions with the possible exception of physical security as applied to health. Someone like him cannot win unless the population feels it has nothing to lose by going down that route - and there isn't time for that to happen (and even then, I suspect that it wouldn't be to the far left that the country would necessarily turn).

    Yes, all else being equal it's the economy stupid, but all other things are not equal.

    People do feel more physically, culturally and politically insecure than they did in the late 20th Century.

    Trying to think of other elections where this has had an effect.. Possibly 1970 (immigration control) and perhaps added a bit in 1983 (physical security, although to be honest Labour failed on the other tests as well) and in 1997 the economy was doing so well and Blair seemed so middle class it was largely discounted as an issue.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    DeClare said:

    Remain lost the argument because they failed to sell the EU in a positive light, the EU already has a terrible press, for example they issue 'directives' the leaders are unappealing foreigners, home come a Briton is never allowed to become President of the EU when we were the second largest country in it? and they are always reputed to be wasteful, undemocratic and autocratic.
    What the Remain side should have done is give us good reasons to stay in the EU, tell us what the EU is going to do for us in the future etc. Instead all they did is issue scare stories and even when these were roundly ridiculed, they continued regardless.
    Imagine a soap powder company advertising it's product not by saying how good it is but by suggesting that using anybody else's will leave your clothes dirty and make you a smelly tramp. Such a campaign would be doomed to ridicule and failure and it's the same with politics.

    Ummm. Roy Jenkins was the leader in the early 80s wasn't he?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    John_M said:

    I wonder how many people have read the Five President's report?

    About three of them.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    John_M said:

    I wonder how many people have read the Five President's report?

    I doubt more than a handful of PBers and those paid to do so.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
    Indeed - and Sparta wasn't anyone's idea of a picnic. I was always very curious about a well known 70s brand of chocolate box named after them. They were horrible - all hard centres, but stuck around for yrs. The sort of gift to make your heart sink.

    http://www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/16-pictures-of-wonderful-old-terrys-chocolate-boxes-do-you-remember-any-of-them/
    I enjoy reading about Sparta, but very much doubt that I would have enjoyed living there. The upbringing of Spartan youths sounds very much like going to Shrewsbury School in the 1970's (lots of flogging, compulsory homosexuality, lots of sports, an absence of intellectual pursuits).



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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rcs1000 said:

    When I meet pension fund trustees I always ask them how much they have in government bonds, aka "return free risk".

    They haven't been return-free over the last few years, though.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Do we have any PBers who can tell us about the strange topology of Rio. Where do those island peaks come from?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Cheers Ms Cyclefree. Another concise essay, warts and all.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    More on TeamGB in triathlon - they've wiped every surface with disinfectant daily in training camp, taken their own nutritionist/cooks and used antibacterials all over to make sure they never got sick.

    That's how to do it. Last time one of them got sick.

    That's ridiculous. If its prolonged.. that's how they will get sick because their bodies are not exposed to bacteria..
    Rubbish - you end up with a very robust constitution from playing in dirt, eating food dropped on the floor and having the windows open as a kid. I speak from experience :lol:

    Going abroad and zapping every bug stops you getting caught by an alien lifeform. Along with not drinking the water or brushing your teeth with it.

    If I'd the foresight - I'd follow TeamGB's tactics to avoid a day or two of squits. Took me almost three weeks to be struck down in rural Morocco to get caught.
    Indeed, long term you want your immune system exposed to antigens. Short-term to preserve your health for a sporting event, kill all the bugs and only drink bottled water (including for brushing teeth) and canned food.

    Despite a well-exposed immune system, Pakistan is batting 1.00* against my immune system (* apologies for baseball stat reference).
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919

    rcs1000 said:

    When I meet pension fund trustees I always ask them how much they have in government bonds, aka "return free risk".

    They haven't been return-free over the last few years, though.
    They're return free now.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    You mean, the best that happens is you get your money back?
    We did very well playing an equity mandate that behaved like a debt portfolio.... my foundation's fund - which far smarter people than I invest - has equity upside, debt downside and a 4.5% cash yield thanks to canny stock selection.
    I'm just kidding around.
    When I meet pension fund trustees I always ask them how much they have in government bonds, aka "return free risk".
    Isn't there some rule these days that pension funds must keep a certain percentage in gilts? I thought that was the main reason why so many of them are in trouble.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Reuters: Norway's PM softens stance on Britain joining EFTA https://t.co/xCh5bYo1Uy https://t.co/BEM6UxUYxK
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    When I meet pension fund trustees I always ask them how much they have in government bonds, aka "return free risk".

    They haven't been return-free over the last few years, though.
    They're return free now.
    Many are value destroying at the moment. Hopefully the Fed will fire the starter gun again and drag the world out of this odd situation.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Whilst we're on strange societies and I'm procrastinating, the Huns had weird, elongated skulls. They bound the skulls of their infants, which led to them growing in that bizarre shape, and rather terrified lots of their contemporaries.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MTimT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    More on TeamGB in triathlon - they've wiped every surface with disinfectant daily in training camp, taken their own nutritionist/cooks and used antibacterials all over to make sure they never got sick.

    That's how to do it. Last time one of them got sick.

    That's ridiculous. If its prolonged.. that's how they will get sick because their bodies are not exposed to bacteria..
    Rubbish - you end up with a very robust constitution from playing in dirt, eating food dropped on the floor and having the windows open as a kid. I speak from experience :lol:

    Going abroad and zapping every bug stops you getting caught by an alien lifeform. Along with not drinking the water or brushing your teeth with it.

    If I'd the foresight - I'd follow TeamGB's tactics to avoid a day or two of squits. Took me almost three weeks to be struck down in rural Morocco to get caught.
    Indeed, long term you want your immune system exposed to antigens. Short-term to preserve your health for a sporting event, kill all the bugs and only drink bottled water (including for brushing teeth) and canned food.

    Despite a well-exposed immune system, Pakistan is batting 1.00* against my immune system (* apologies for baseball stat reference).
    Sympathies - Rajasthan beat me after about three weeks. I can't tell if I was getting complacent or just unlucky.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Excellent article, Cyclefree.

    I touched on this the other day but, in order to win, Remain needed to make an emotional case for our EU membership to the patriotic Right. Remain knew that they had an advantage on Britain's influence as a global power but barely used it other than to brand themselves 'Britain Stronger in Europe' and occasionally nattering about a 'seat at the table'.

    Remain could have made a case that'd have appealed to Conservatives that the UK basically designed much of the single market, and that it amplified our influence globally in world affairs, and given a few example of some big (and preferably popular) wins. In other words, turned the EU flag into the British flag - "do you want the UK to stay a global power?" Etc

    They totally failed to do so. Probably because the internationalists at the heart of the campaign found such a nation-ist method anathema.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152

    I don't think Theresa May is the kind of person who is likely to succumb to hubris, nor can she and her ministers be in any doubt as to the massive challenges they face. Admittedly Labour seem almost completely irrelevant to the political debate at the moment, but that's a different point.

    She - personally - may not be. But the three Brexit Ministers are, I think, inclined to this. And the minute they start making decisions and the rest of the EU doesn't play ball then what? Without an opposition to keep the Tories on their toes there is a risk that they will assume that they can get away with pretty much anything and that, when push comes to shove, the voters will look at Labour and go "no, thank you".

    More likely than not, I grant you. But were I PM I wouldn't plan my strategy on that basis.

    Politicians of all parties have underestimated the public for too long now. The referendum should have woken them up. Lots of people - and not just the Northern WWC - are dissatisfied with what has been a pretty piss poor political class for some time now and with an economy which looks a bit too much like Richistan in the South East and Mostly-Standing-Still everywhere else. I'm not at all sure the political parties have really got this.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Brownlee brothers giving it max power. Hopefully not doing too much too soon.

    Gold & Bronze at London 2012 IIRC, an exhilarating race throughout as the two brothers battled it out around Kensington Gardens? – Hope to catch up on the event when time permits
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited August 2016
    @MTimT

    "... only drink bottled water (including for brushing teeth) ..."

    When I first went out East my step father, who had been out during WW2, advised saving some of my morning tea for brushing my teeth. Later when I married I found out that my father-in-law, whenever in a country in which he thought the water might be unreliable, used brandy for the same purpose.

    Brushing one's teeth in brandy is an acquired taste but it is a lot better than having one's bowels turn to water.
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    Whilst we're on strange societies and I'm procrastinating, the Huns had weird, elongated skulls. They bound the skulls of their infants, which led to them growing in that bizarre shape, and rather terrified lots of their contemporaries.

    I think that the Maya and Inca also did this?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    edited August 2016
    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
    Indeed - and Sparta wasn't anyone's idea of a picnic. I was always very curious about a well known 70s brand of chocolate box named after them. They were horrible - all hard centres, but stuck around for yrs. The sort of gift to make your heart sink.

    http://www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/16-pictures-of-wonderful-old-terrys-chocolate-boxes-do-you-remember-any-of-them/
    I enjoy reading about Sparta, but very much doubt that I would have enjoyed living there. The upbringing of Spartan youths sounds very much like going to Shrewsbury School in the 1970's (lots of flogging, compulsory homosexuality, lots of sports, an absence of intellectual pursuits).



    When I look back on it, there were so many things wrong with my time at boarding school: the ex-RAF WWII headmaster using the cane right up until the day it was banned in private schools, in 1990, the early morning cold showers, dormitory wide group punishments for certain misdemeanours, referring to each other by surname only (we were nine years old), the insufficient and bad food, the placing of sporting process above academic excellence, the belief that girls were a malign influence, encouraging the settling of disputes by confrontation rather than diffusing situations and reason, and the overarching belief that all of the above was 'character building'.

    I'm glad those days are gone.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    edited August 2016
    Dr. Prasannan, you may well be right, but that's a long way from my area of interest.

    One of the best Christmas presents I got out of the blue was The History of the World in 100 Objects (or similar), which is a hefty and fascinating book. Mixture of art, culture and history.

    Edited extra bit: ahem, meant to add it had a few things from that sort of era. I wasn't just randomly saying things.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Cyclefree said:

    I don't think Theresa May is the kind of person who is likely to succumb to hubris, nor can she and her ministers be in any doubt as to the massive challenges they face. Admittedly Labour seem almost completely irrelevant to the political debate at the moment, but that's a different point.

    She - personally - may not be. But the three Brexit Ministers are, I think, inclined to this. And the minute they start making decisions and the rest of the EU doesn't play ball then what? Without an opposition to keep the Tories on their toes there is a risk that they will assume that they can get away with pretty much anything and that, when push comes to shove, the voters will look at Labour and go "no, thank you".

    More likely than not, I grant you. But were I PM I wouldn't plan my strategy on that basis.

    Politicians of all parties have underestimated the public for too long now. The referendum should have woken them up. Lots of people - and not just the Northern WWC - are dissatisfied with what has been a pretty piss poor political class for some time now and with an economy which looks a bit too much like Richistan in the South East and Mostly-Standing-Still everywhere else. I'm not at all sure the political parties have really got this.
    It's not even that good. Most areas have gone backwards relative to Londonistan, including the South East.

    https://twitter.com/mcdonnelljp/status/765174072414179328
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    edited August 2016
    Cyclefree said:


    Politicians of all parties have underestimated the public for too long now. The referendum should have woken them up. Lots of people - and not just the Northern WWC - are dissatisfied with what has been a pretty piss poor political class for some time now and with an economy which looks a bit too much like Richistan in the South East and Mostly-Standing-Still everywhere else. I'm not at all sure the political parties have really got this.

    It's not just a UK problem. Western leaders, no matter their background, tend to be drawn from the group of people who benefit from globalisation and so they find it hard to empathise with those who don't.

    This quote from Susan Rice sums up the mindset:

    We are in an era where, as the president has often said, if you didn’t know who you were going to be, or whether you were going to be male or female; white, black, Asian, Native American, Latino, [or] something else; if you didn’t know if you were going to be straight or gay — if you didn’t know anything about who you were going to be and you had to pick a time in which to be born…

    You would pick this time. Because the odds of success for any individual are much higher in the aggregate than they’ve ever been.


    http://www.vox.com/2016/8/18/12387600/susan-rice-vox

    She omitted to list 'if you didn't know if you were going to be exceptionally talented or not' because it would substantially change the odds. Identity politics has obscured the more fundamental political debates.
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    Yarrrrkshire lads just out on a run on the Yorkshire moors....
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Yarrrrkshire lads just out on a run on the Yorkshire moors....

    It's not snowing...
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited August 2016
    @Richard_Nabavi - perhaps a review of your immigration paper would be interesting given what's happened since?

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/06/the-future-of-scottish-lab-and-holyrood-2016-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-podcast/

    Incidentally, our local Conservative branch is having a policy discussion next week on Refugees, Asylum and Immigration. I've been given the hot potato of preparing the briefing paper and chairing the discussion. I hope to get out alive, but if I suddenly stop posting you'll know why!

    A fascinating thread from November last year.

    And so many banned subsequently!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Urquhart, who says 'Yarrrrkshire'?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,150
    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
    Indeed - and Sparta wasn't anyone's idea of a picnic. I was always very curious about a well known 70s brand of chocolate box named after them. They were horrible - all hard centres, but stuck around for yrs. The sort of gift to make your heart sink.

    http://www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/16-pictures-of-wonderful-old-terrys-chocolate-boxes-do-you-remember-any-of-them/
    I enjoy reading about Sparta, but very much doubt that I would have enjoyed living there. The upbringing of Spartan youths sounds very much like going to Shrewsbury School in the 1970's (lots of flogging, compulsory homosexuality, lots of sports, an absence of intellectual pursuits).



    Great website of old choc boxes. I vaguely remember the Bridge mints.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2016
    Scott_P said:

    Yarrrrkshire lads just out on a run on the Yorkshire moors....

    It's not snowing...

    The way they are tipping that water over themselves, I bet they wish it were.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    I know a chap who invested in Greek debt when it was at eye watering rates, he made out like a bandit and was up significantly on the whole lot even after the soft defaults.
    Sure. For people with a high risk tolerance there is always money to be made. But it's never a sure bet - which is how your recommendation came across.
    Back then it wasn't a sure bet. In today's climate it is a sure bet, the ECB are already pumping €80bn per month into EMU debt, that is probably going to increase which means bond prices will go up, over the long haul the risk of bankruptcy has to be close to nil, obviously the 3% yield reflects that, but in a world of negative rates, 3% guaranteed is pretty solid.
    And at some point the yield curve will normalise.

    So the bet you are making is that you can anticipate correctly when the market will change it's mind on the likelihood of that happening.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
    Indeed - and Sparta wasn't anyone's idea of a picnic. I was always very curious about a well known 70s brand of chocolate box named after them. They were horrible - all hard centres, but stuck around for yrs. The sort of gift to make your heart sink.

    http://www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/16-pictures-of-wonderful-old-terrys-chocolate-boxes-do-you-remember-any-of-them/
    I enjoy reading about Sparta, but very much doubt that I would have enjoyed living there. The upbringing of Spartan youths sounds very much like going to Shrewsbury School in the 1970's (lots of flogging, compulsory homosexuality, lots of sports, an absence of intellectual pursuits).



    When I look back on it, there were so many things wrong with my time at boarding school: the ex-RAF WWII headmaster using the cane right up until the day it was banned in private schools, in 1990, the early morning cold showers, dormitory wide group punishments for certain misdemeanours, referring to each other by surname only (we were nine years old), the insufficient and bad food, the placing of sporting process above academic excellence, the belief that girls were a malign influence, encouraging the settling of disputes by confrontation rather than diffusing situations and reason, and the overarching belief that all of the above was 'character building'.

    I'm glad those days are gone.
    My friend who was at Shrewsbury in the 1970s makes it sound like Belsen.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Urquhart, who says 'Yarrrrkshire'?

    The cast of EastEnders who said Michelle moved to Nuucarrsell.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    These guys are the Williams sister of triathalon
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    @MaxPB FPT

    The problem with pennies and steamrollers is that one day you are going to get hit.

    I would look for equities that behave like debt - MediX or Assura , for instance.

    You mean, the best that happens is you get your money back?
    We did very well playing an equity mandate that behaved like a debt portfolio.... my foundation's fund - which far smarter people than I invest - has equity upside, debt downside and a 4.5% cash yield thanks to canny stock selection.
    I'm just kidding around.
    When I meet pension fund trustees I always ask them how much they have in government bonds, aka "return free risk".
    To be fair, we did have some money in US Treasuries and Singapore government debt (plus some Chuffies) ahead of Brexit :lol:
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Sean_F said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT: Mr. F, never read anything by Plato (the elder chap, not our own Miss Plato). I think his policy of executing atheists is not an endearing one.

    Plato's Republic would not have been a very nice place to live in. It was like a more hardline version of Sparta.
    Indeed - and Sparta wasn't anyone's idea of a picnic. I was always very curious about a well known 70s brand of chocolate box named after them. They were horrible - all hard centres, but stuck around for yrs. The sort of gift to make your heart sink.

    http://www.yorkmix.com/food-drink/16-pictures-of-wonderful-old-terrys-chocolate-boxes-do-you-remember-any-of-them/
    I enjoy reading about Sparta, but very much doubt that I would have enjoyed living there. The upbringing of Spartan youths sounds very much like going to Shrewsbury School in the 1970's (lots of flogging, compulsory homosexuality, lots of sports, an absence of intellectual pursuits).



    Great website of old choc boxes. I vaguely remember the Bridge mints.
    I kept all those ones with tassles and drawers. Wonderful packaging. I'd forgotten all about them.
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    Shut up commentators....
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    PlatoSaid said:

    Do we have any PBers who can tell us about the strange topology of Rio. Where do those island peaks come from?

    They are a continuation of the Serro da Mar

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_do_Mar
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    rcs1000 said:

    DeClare said:

    Remain lost the argument because they failed to sell the EU in a positive light, the EU already has a terrible press, for example they issue 'directives' the leaders are unappealing foreigners, home come a Briton is never allowed to become President of the EU when we were the second largest country in it? and they are always reputed to be wasteful, undemocratic and autocratic.
    What the Remain side should have done is give us good reasons to stay in the EU, tell us what the EU is going to do for us in the future etc. Instead all they did is issue scare stories and even when these were roundly ridiculed, they continued regardless.
    Imagine a soap powder company advertising it's product not by saying how good it is but by suggesting that using anybody else's will leave your clothes dirty and make you a smelly tramp. Such a campaign would be doomed to ridicule and failure and it's the same with politics.

    Ummm. Roy Jenkins was the leader in the early 80s wasn't he?
    Yes to 1981. But if there had been a Brit in one of the "Presidents" roles it might have helped make the EU look less foreign and remote. What if Blair had become one? Was that a key mistake of the EU?
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    I think the election is in the bag if Corbyn remains, this could be just hubris on my part but I have a really hard time thinking his vision of Labour will be voted by the general public. I just haven't seen anything to suggest the country is hard left or will shift that way.
This discussion has been closed.