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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polls might still be overstating Labour

SystemSystem Posts: 11,004
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polls might still be overstating Labour

The Ipsos-Mori poll this week contained a paradox. On the one hand, Labour’s headline voting intention share was 34%, some way up on their General Election performance. On the other, Jeremy Corbyn’s approval ratings were awful.

Read the full story here


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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    1st like the Tories!
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    silver
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    so why did the men 400m relay not qualify
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    what changes have mori made since 2015?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited August 2016
    3 fights in one day in the kicking PJ's thingy.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    nunu said:

    so why did the men 400m relay not qualify

    They got a DQ for some irregularity in a changeover. Team are appealing.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    USAIN BOLT!!!!!
    9 gold medals from 9 attempts, a perfect record.

    Great silver from Japan, beating the mighty USA down to bronze.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    ABC
    JUST IN - UPDATE: #USA Men DISQUALIFIED from the 4x100m Relay after originally winning #Bronze. https://t.co/oBA21F5jX3
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    omg U.S dq, farce.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    nunu said:

    omg U.S dq, farce.

    never, ever, ever give the games to a toliet country again.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2016
    Omnishambles Games 2016....
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    PlatoSaid said:

    ABC
    JUST IN - UPDATE: #USA Men DISQUALIFIED from the 4x100m Relay after originally winning #Bronze. https://t.co/oBA21F5jX3

    After they'd run their lap of honour as well. Looks like last change was too late.

    Anyway, it's light outside so time to rest. Morning all!
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Lutalo Muhammad has given Martyn Rooney a run for his money as most extraordinary interview of the games.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    omg U.S dq, farce.

    never, ever, ever give the games to a toliet country again.
    Aside from anything else, afaik the judges are selected by the federations and nothing to do with the host country.
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    OUTOUT Posts: 569
    Sandpit said:

    USAIN BOLT!!!!!
    9 gold medals from 9 attempts, a perfect record.

    Great silver from Japan, beating the mighty USA down to bronze.

    Not quite. He ran in Athens in 2004. 200m only. Went out in heats.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    OUT said:

    Sandpit said:

    USAIN BOLT!!!!!
    9 gold medals from 9 attempts, a perfect record.

    Great silver from Japan, beating the mighty USA down to bronze.

    Not quite. He ran in Athens in 2004. 200m only. Went out in heats.
    So about 7 runners able to tell the story of beating Bolt at the Olympics.
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    OUTOUT Posts: 569
    corporeal said:

    OUT said:

    Sandpit said:

    USAIN BOLT!!!!!
    9 gold medals from 9 attempts, a perfect record.

    Great silver from Japan, beating the mighty USA down to bronze.

    Not quite. He ran in Athens in 2004. 200m only. Went out in heats.
    So about 7 runners able to tell the story of beating Bolt at the Olympics.
    The famous four.
    Marcin Jędrusiński,Tobias Unger,Joseph Batangdon,Géza Pauer.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    OUT said:

    corporeal said:

    OUT said:

    Sandpit said:

    USAIN BOLT!!!!!
    9 gold medals from 9 attempts, a perfect record.

    Great silver from Japan, beating the mighty USA down to bronze.

    Not quite. He ran in Athens in 2004. 200m only. Went out in heats.
    So about 7 runners able to tell the story of beating Bolt at the Olympics.
    The famous four.
    Marcin Jędrusiński,Tobias Unger,Joseph Batangdon,Géza Pauer.
    Ha! Bolt would have been aged 17 in Athens.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    corporeal said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    omg U.S dq, farce.

    never, ever, ever give the games to a toliet country again.
    Aside from anything else, afaik the judges are selected by the federations and nothing to do with the host country.
    but they don't hsve the camera angles to prove or disprove.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    edited August 2016
    I hate being in a different time zone ans having to wait for people to wake up :grin:
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955
    Blue_rog said:

    I hate being in a different time zone ans having to wait for people to wake up :grin:

    PB Tories are always waiting.. lurking....
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Got to try and think of a really astute comment for my 1000th post
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955
    Blue_rog said:

    Got to try and think of a really astute comment for my 1000th post

    "First"? :D
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Blue_rog said:

    I hate being in a different time zone ans having to wait for people to wake up :grin:

    was good watching the relay at a sensible hour tho, eh?
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    Blue_rog said:

    I hate being in a different time zone ans having to wait for people to wake up :grin:

    was good watching the relay at a sensible hour tho, eh?
    Can't stream UK TV here
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Blue_rog said:

    Blue_rog said:

    I hate being in a different time zone ans having to wait for people to wake up :grin:

    was good watching the relay at a sensible hour tho, eh?
    Can't stream UK TV here
    Ah, shame. Where are you? Japanese TV only shows the sports with Japanese competitors - got lucky with the relay (amidst the monstrous tedium of a million women's ping pong, badminton and wrestling matches.. actually some of the badminton was all right)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,897
    Just woke up to see the Lutalo stuff. How completely gutting
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I'm in India but most of the TV is in Hindu
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    Just come across a speech on the origins of partisanship in US politics, and how it might be reduced, given at the American Psychological Association convention, by Dr Haidt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAE-gxKs6gM

    The speech is about 1 hour long, beginning at around 3:30, after a short introduction,
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Interesting thread, as ever Mr Herdson.

    How can anyone in Labour complain about May refusing to unconditionally guarantee the rights of Latvians (and others) in this country, when Corbyn won't guarantee to come to their defence in their own country.....

    How different, how very different from May's simple, one word answer when asked whether she'd use Trident.....
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Blue_rog said:

    I'm in India but most of the TV is in Hindu

    you'll have been getting some wrestling too, then :)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Good header DH.

    Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though.

    Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited August 2016
    I think I posted as much as soon as I saw it .Of course the polls are overstating Labour . The 34% figure is difficult to believe, we need more polls , but I think its a hell of an outlier. Tory fig is too high too imho.

    Jonathan will tell you what its really like in the Labour trenches, I suspect there are a lot of very disillusioned Labour voters who just will not vote.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited August 2016
    Got to say I much prefer the Hockey Shootout to Footballs version.

    (player kicks off from halfway line with just him v goalie and a time limit).

    It means it shifts from player being expected to score and being an idiot if he fails to player needing skill to score and the ones who do being heros.

    The bit where the goalie fouled the player and gave away a proper penalty in the penalties was a bit surreal though.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    One thing I only touched on in the header - because it was already a long piece and I didn't want to extend it further - was the current invisibility of UKIP and the Lib Dems. That's unlikely to last through the parliament and certainly won't last through an election campaign.

    In a funny way, the canard that all publicity is good publicity is not entirely untrue for Labour (except in the sense that strictly speaking, it is). But the spirit of the saying is right: the Tories and Labour are dominating media coverage at the moment to the extent that other options are not even being considered, so outside of Scotland and to a lesser extent, Wales, Labour is the only not-Tory option for those not paying attention.
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    Good header DH.

    Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though.

    Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.

    I really cant see an election before the constituency changes and after that they will want to complete brexit first so looks like 2020 to me.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Well the H2B ISA is working out well:

    http://tinyurl.com/h69qw3e
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    Huzzah for hockey girls!
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    theakestheakes Posts: 841
    Methinks we all worry too much and read too many opinion polls, which recently have hardly been helpful to good future results. Labour are doing okay considering everything. Once the leadership dust has settled they will unite and move on. By the way I am NOT a Labour supporter. We all know there cannot be a snap election under the present system, any government that produces a vote of no confidence in itself will be laughed at and seen as stupid.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited August 2016

    One thing I only touched on in the header - because it was already a long piece and I didn't want to extend it further - was the current invisibility of UKIP and the Lib Dems. That's unlikely to last through the parliament and certainly won't last through an election campaign.

    In a funny way, the canard that all publicity is good publicity is not entirely untrue for Labour (except in the sense that strictly speaking, it is). But the spirit of the saying is right: the Tories and Labour are dominating media coverage at the moment to the extent that other options are not even being considered, so outside of Scotland and to a lesser extent, Wales, Labour is the only not-Tory option for those not paying attention.

    The libdems seem to be gradually recovering their council base.

    I think parliament will take a while as they have become the 'respectable' opposition to the tories in areas that normally vote tory and would not countenance voting Labour when they get fed up with tories and won't make much inroad until the tories become unpopular in the way that they were in the 1990s again.

    The big problem for Libdems is that outside London and Manchester they have little chance of being seen in the same way by disgruntled Labour voters and with tory leaning kippers returning home after brexit solved the schism there is only one way forward for UKIP which is a socially conservative version of Old Labour.

    Historically if you go back before 1918 and the full franchise the now solid Labour seats were tory and the current tory seats were liberal. It was the tory party that is most responsible for squeezing out libs when a commentator in 1912 might have expected the full franchise to see the - party of the elite, tories - fall into third.

    I think the libdem collapse in 2015 has to be seen in that historic light.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    tlg86 said:

    Well the H2B ISA is working out well:

    http://tinyurl.com/h69qw3e

    Posted this last night too - what a shambles. Pleased Osborne is away from the treasury. Conservative Chancellors should not go tinkering with gimmicks like this. They should help to improve the life chances of poor through aspiration, lower taxes to stimulate growth and raise taxes to discourage socially questionable capitalism (like Buy to Let).
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    Good morning, everyone.

    Huzzah for hockey girls!

    Morning Mr Dancer - thanks for your VM mail. Give me a few days to reply properly?
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Huzzah for hockey girls!

    Anyone seen Tyson since the Horse Dancing gold?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Jonathan said:

    If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    You mean with hundreds of thousands of new joiners foisting someone like Phillip Hollobone on a Parliamentary Party which couldn't organise a decent coup?

    Must confess I'm struggling a bit seeing that......
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Mortimer, of course.

    Hmm. Seems the British relay team was disqualified again, although this time the reason is a mystery.

    Fortunately, the Brazilian team are ready to take their place in the final.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Pulpstar said:
    There really is a solution to this. Why no-one has tried baffles me. Far more votes from aspirant homeowners than Buy to Letters.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited August 2016
    What is going on at Notts Police?

    http://dailym.ai/2b7166T.

    Isn't this the same force that have decided to Nick people for 'misogyny' and record it as a hate crime even though it is actually not a crime at all?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited August 2016
    @Mortimer

    Am I to understand you've opened an antiquarian bookshop ? .. if so ....

    Huzzah .. :smile: ....

    Better still if the female assistants are jolly hockey sticks .. :smiley:
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Bedfordshire, yes, it is.

    Nottinghamshire must be a wonderful place if the police have solved all crimes and are forced to invent new ones just for something to do.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    JackW said:

    @Mortimer

    Am I to understand you've opened an antiquarian bookshop ? .. if so ....

    Huzzah .. :smile: ....

    Better still if the female assistants are jolly hockey sticks .. :smiley:

    Correct Mr W! Thank you!

    First proper new customer yesterday - very exciting!

    I also have an c18th cellar included. Sadly it was more coal hole than burgundy filled...
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    The Tories could never find themselves where Labour is today because under the Tories' rather more practical rules, a vote of No Confidence in the leader by the parliamentary party is binding.

    Labour's problems aren't superficial; they're existential. There is a vast gaping chasm of a divide within the party about the very nature of what the party is and should be for. Is it a 'movement' to promote socialism or is it a political party dedicated to winning power and implementing a social democratic platform? Are the former Greens, trotskyites and the like infiltrators or fellow supporters? Who speaks for the party: the membership or the PLP? Who speaks for it in parliament: the leader of the MPs?

    Against which, the Tories held a leadership election where the various candidates ended up rallying round the elected leader without the need to even go to the membership, which has barely murmered a whisper of protest - because they're content with the unity and the outcome. That is an enormous difference in mindset, never mind self-discipline.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    With a majority of 12 the Tories have never been stronger.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    You mean with hundreds of thousands of new joiners foisting someone like Phillip Hollobone on a Parliamentary Party which couldn't organise a decent coup?

    Must confess I'm struggling a bit seeing that......
    Could have said the same thing about Labour five years ago.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited August 2016
    Mortimer said:

    Correct Mr W! Thank you!

    First proper new customer yesterday - very exciting!

    I also have an c18th cellar included. Sadly it was more coal hole than burgundy filled...

    A cellar might become a dungeon for recalcitrant customers .. I have some experience in the field.

    I wish your venture well. Sad to say many bookshops have closed over the decades. High rents, ebay, postal selling and the pernicious influence of Oxfam bookshops.

    It's always a joy for this musty old tome to find same on the bookshelf of a decent bookseller .... :smile:



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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited August 2016

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.
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    Pulpstar said:
    BTL landlords = scroungers leeching off the tax payers.

    The worst of it is that because capital is not assessed for tax credits or child benefit) some of these parasite landlords get benefits too (tax credit and child benefit).
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    JackW said:

    Mortimer said:

    Correct Mr W! Thank you!

    First proper new customer yesterday - very exciting!

    I also have an c18th cellar included. Sadly it was more coal hole than burgundy filled...

    A cellar might become a dungeon for recalcitrant customers .. I have some experience in the field.

    I wish your venture well. Sad to say many bookshops have closed over the decades. High rents, ebay, postal selling and the pernicious influence of Oxfam bookshops.

    It's always a joy for this musty old tome to find same on the bookshelf of a decent bookseller .... :smile:



    Thank you! I'm still a little bit in love with our window...

    http://www.sheppardsworld.com/SCEditions/SC473/SC473AntiquatesPressRelease.pdf
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    In the kicky boxing I can't understand why our guy did not do what the guy did the other day in a similar position. They poised ready to engage and the guy in the lead just ran off the combat floor and as such time ran out.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited August 2016

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    It only ever got two working majorities. One of those in 1945 was in an extraordinary situation, the other was I suspect down to Wilsons personal charisma but even this was short lived.

    Blair realised that traditional labour values would not get a majority and tried unsuccessfully to to (to the tories) what the tories did to the liberals after 1918.

    Ie absorb a good slew into your tent and tack towards their policies enough to get enough of their voters for a majority. He failed because international power went to his head and he invaded iraq discrediting the brand allowing the diminishing core to take back control. It was a close run thing though.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.
    The point was about socialism, not Labour. If Labour decided to return to the centre and had a charismatic (or even competent) leader, I'd be a lot more concerned about the Tories' ability to win.

    But Blair wasn't even a Social Democrat; he started off as a Christian Democrat and ended as a NeoCon.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    edited August 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    You mean with hundreds of thousands of new joiners foisting someone like Phillip Hollobone on a Parliamentary Party which couldn't organise a decent coup?

    Must confess I'm struggling a bit seeing that......
    Could have said the same thing about Labour five years ago.
    What's 'repeating the same process and expecting a different outcome' a definition of again....?
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Good header DH. Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though. Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.

    I really cant see an election before the constituency changes and after that they will want to complete brexit first so looks like 2020 to me.
    We must not overlook the possibility, Mr Bedfordshire, that 20 to 30 Tory MPs will become disqualified for their despicable behaviour in the 2015 general election. Then Mrs May will lose her majority and this Conservative government will fall. Her hand will be forced.

    But everything seems to have gone very quiet on this issue. Has anybody heard what is happening?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.

    But we keen being told (by Labour members, no less) that Tony Blair was a Tory

    So who is engaged in doublethink?
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    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.
    So you think Tony Blair was a socialist? Many on the left would disagree with you, some even considering him just another Tory.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    PClipp said:

    Good header DH. Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though. Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.

    I really cant see an election before the constituency changes and after that they will want to complete brexit first so looks like 2020 to me.
    We must not overlook the possibility, Mr Bedfordshire, that 20 to 30 Tory MPs will become disqualified for their despicable behaviour in the 2015 general election. Then Mrs May will lose her majority and this Conservative government will fall. Her hand will be forced.

    But everything seems to have gone very quiet on this issue. Has anybody heard what is happening?
    "despicable behaviour"? You havent been getting all labourEoin on us have you? If the line on national / local campaigning is enforced in court, expect half of parliament to be resigning.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,609
    PClipp said:

    Good header DH. Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though. Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.

    I really cant see an election before the constituency changes and after that they will want to complete brexit first so looks like 2020 to me.
    We must not overlook the possibility, Mr Bedfordshire, that 20 to 30 Tory MPs will become disqualified for their despicable behaviour in the 2015 general election. Then Mrs May will lose her majority and this Conservative government will fall. Her hand will be forced.

    But everything seems to have gone very quiet on this issue. Has anybody heard what is happening?
    last I heard turns out all parties could be accused of various breaches across many seats. Relying on the tories being uniquely criminal seems unwise.

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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited August 2016
    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Pulpstar said:
    BTL landlords = scroungers leeching off the tax payers.

    The worst of it is that because capital is not assessed for tax credits or child benefit) some of these parasite landlords get benefits too (tax credit and child benefit).
    Only in the most exceptional circumstances do landlords get housing benefit, such as the cases that their tenants may have mental illness or are vulnerable in some way. The risk of getting direct payment is that in the event of a problem with the eligibility or overpayment the landlord is at risk or having to repay.

    In the overwhelming vast cases, housing benefit is paid to tenants, not landlords.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited August 2016
    Mortimer said:

    Thank you! I'm still a little bit in love with our window...

    http://www.sheppardsworld.com/SCEditions/SC473/SC473AntiquatesPressRelease.pdf

    Very fine.

    When next in your county I shall take a turn in your direction .... clearly incognito in my clan kilt, Inverness cape and eagle feather mounted headdress.

    Rutland being my favourite English county I always enjoy visiting Uppingham with its art galleries, antique shops, fine pubs. Above all the bookshops.

    I do recall over twenty years past a wonderful Easter Saturday there. There was a tremendous bookfair in the Hall of Uppingham School - Secured some excellent items and a splendid weekend was had in glorious gluttony in fine company.

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.
    So you think Tony Blair was a socialist? Many on the left would disagree with you, some even considering him just another Tory.

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.

    But we keen being told (by Labour members, no less) that Tony Blair was a Tory

    So who is engaged in doublethink?
    If Tony Blair had renationalised everything and raise the red flag over no10 those same people on the left would still call him a Tory. They call everyone they don't like Tories. Doesn't mean they are right.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,212
    I agree with the thrust of David's post - although I suspect that, as things are, the two more dominant factors will be the 'smell test' - when voters come to take a sniff of Labour as a prospective government, rather than just a stock non-Tory preference, a good chunk of them won't like what they smell - and the likelihood that Labour's GE campaign will both be poor and mercilessly painted by the press as poor, even where it isn't.

    One small technical challenge - the tendency for Labour's voter turnout to be low in its safe seats is already allowed for in the models we all use to turn vote share into projected seats (because it happens every time and is therefore 'in the base'). Therefore it cannot be ignored as 'not mattering' when a pollster is trying to estimate actual national vote share from a set of stated voting intentions and expressed likelihood of voting statistics - to do so would be discounting the same factor twice.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    PClipp said:

    Good header DH. Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though. Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.

    I really cant see an election before the constituency changes and after that they will want to complete brexit first so looks like 2020 to me.
    We must not overlook the possibility, Mr Bedfordshire, that 20 to 30 Tory MPs will become disqualified for their despicable behaviour in the 2015 general election. Then Mrs May will lose her majority and this Conservative government will fall. Her hand will be forced.

    But everything seems to have gone very quiet on this issue. Has anybody heard what is happening?
    It's an overblown story quibbling about accounting technicalities? The public is not going to get het up about where central staff sleep.
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    notme said:

    Pulpstar said:
    BTL landlords = scroungers leeching off the tax payers.

    The worst of it is that because capital is not assessed for tax credits or child benefit) some of these parasite landlords get benefits too (tax credit and child benefit).
    Only in the most exceptional circumstances do landlords get housing benefit, such as the cases that their tenants may have mental illness or are vulnerable in some way. The risk of getting direct payment is that in the event of a problem with the eligibility or overpayment the landlord is at risk or having to repay.

    In the overwhelming vast cases, housing benefit is paid to tenants, not landlords.
    ALL BTL landlords with tenants receiving housing benefit get housing benefit.

    It is just that in most cases the tenant has to deliver the money to the Landlord on behalf of the government.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Moses_ said:

    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.

    Worth noting that the reason that Britain is tussling with China for second is because China has become relatively worse rather than Britain becoming relatively better. China won 38 golds in London.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Moses_ said:

    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.

    There are at least two silvers for TeamGB to come, and a chance of at least two more golds I think.

    China could get 3-4 more golds today and tomorrow, so it's going to be close.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,212
    edited August 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. .

    .
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.
    So you think Tony Blair was a socialist? Many on the left would disagree with you, some even considering him just another Tory.

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.

    But we keen being told (by Labour members, no less) that Tony Blair was a Tory

    So who is engaged in doublethink?
    If Tony Blair had renationalised everything and raise the red flag over no10 those same people on the left would still call him a Tory. They call everyone they don't like Tories. Doesn't mean they are right.
    Indeed. The Tories are on 40% and they are self-evidently all Tories. Add another 20% for everyone in the Labour Party from Smith through to the Blairites and you get to 60%. The LibDems are yellow Tories and UKIP are even more Tory than the Tories so that makes 85% altogether. A lot of the SNP are former Tories, there must be a few Green Tories, and the less said about Northern Ireland the better.

    With 90% of the population being Tories the wonder is that they ever lose.
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    IanB2 said:

    I agree with the thrust of David's post - although I suspect that, as things are, the two more dominant factors will be the 'smell test' - when voters come to take a sniff of Labour as a prospective government, rather than just a stock non-Tory preference, a good chunk of them won't like what they smell - and the likelihood that Labour's GE campaign will both be poor and mercilessly painted by the press as poor, even where it isn't.

    One small technical challenge - the tendency for Labour's voter turnout to be low in its safe seats is already allowed for in the models we all use to turn vote share into projected seats (because it happens every time and is therefore 'in the base'). Therefore it cannot be ignored as 'not mattering' when a pollster is trying to estimate actual national vote share from a set of stated voting intentions and expressed likelihood of voting statistics - to do so would be discounting the same factor twice.

    Out of interest, is there any evidence that when there is a serious UKIP challenge in these seats, turnout goes up significantly and is there any analysis as to how much of the increased turnout is supposed Lab supporters who don't usually bother to vote turning out for Labour?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,212

    IanB2 said:

    I agree with the thrust of David's post - although I suspect that, as things are, the two more dominant factors will be the 'smell test' - when voters come to take a sniff of Labour as a prospective government, rather than just a stock non-Tory preference, a good chunk of them won't like what they smell - and the likelihood that Labour's GE campaign will both be poor and mercilessly painted by the press as poor, even where it isn't.

    One small technical challenge - the tendency for Labour's voter turnout to be low in its safe seats is already allowed for in the models we all use to turn vote share into projected seats (because it happens every time and is therefore 'in the base'). Therefore it cannot be ignored as 'not mattering' when a pollster is trying to estimate actual national vote share from a set of stated voting intentions and expressed likelihood of voting statistics - to do so would be discounting the same factor twice.

    Out of interest, is there any evidence that when there is a serious UKIP challenge in these seats, turnout goes up significantly and is there any analysis as to how much of the increased turnout is supposed Lab supporters who don't usually bother to vote turning out for Labour?
    I guess the easy answer is to observe that you can only have evidence once something has actually happened. Labour hasn't actually been seriously threatened by UKIP anywhere at parliamentary level yet, except for that one by-election.

    I suppose the question could be considered more seriously be isolating a population of labour safe seats and seeing if there is any correlation between UKIP vote share and overall turnout. A rainy day job for someone.
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    Moses_ said:

    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.

    There are at least two silvers for TeamGB to come, and a chance of at least two more golds I think.

    China could get 3-4 more golds today and tomorrow, so it's going to be close.
    Possible Golds off the top of my head:

    Mo
    Kayak bloke
    2x boxing finals
    Tom Daley
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    edited August 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.

    But we keen being told (by Labour members, no less) that Tony Blair was a Tory

    So who is engaged in doublethink?
    If Tony Blair had renationalised everything and raise the red flag over no10 those same people on the left would still call him a Tory. They call everyone they don't like Tories. Doesn't mean they are right.
    He didn't though, did he?

    He expanded the private sector in the NHS; he increased the acadamies programme in education; he was hardline on law and order; he maintained the privatised industries other than when circumstances forced his government's hand (and added a few new privatisations); and he launched a pre-emptive war in Iraq.

    There was little that could be defined at all as socialist that his government opted to do; still less that he rather than Brown opted to do.

    In social and constitutional matters he was a liberal radical.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Scrapheap, probably get 2-3 golds from that list. May be down to silvers.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.

    There are at least two silvers for TeamGB to come, and a chance of at least two more golds I think.

    China could get 3-4 more golds today and tomorrow, so it's going to be close.
    Indeed it is going to be close. I really do feel for those overnight that came so so close to their dream and yet it wasn't to be.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:
    Why is this filed in the Education section of the BBC News website?

    As usual, middle class renters get very worked up about this. Making being a landlord more difficult would be great for them, reducing house prices and making it easier for them to buy. Reducing the number of properties available to rent would be worse for poorer tenants, tending to drive up their rents. But this is all about subsidising the middle classes.

    The only long term solution to the housing shortage is to build far more properties (which in turn would reduce the attractiveness of being a landlord). Time to start using the third dimension much more.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,212
    edited August 2016

    PClipp said:

    Good header DH. Short of a snap election we cannot know the answer though. Under Jezza I expect a GE to have Labour about 20%, but probably 150 seats, but dropping further after that.

    I really cant see an election before the constituency changes and after that they will want to complete brexit first so looks like 2020 to me.
    We must not overlook the possibility, Mr Bedfordshire, that 20 to 30 Tory MPs will become disqualified for their despicable behaviour in the 2015 general election. Then Mrs May will lose her majority and this Conservative government will fall. Her hand will be forced.

    But everything seems to have gone very quiet on this issue. Has anybody heard what is happening?
    It's an overblown story quibbling about accounting technicalities? The public is not going to get het up about where central staff sleep.
    And none of the other parties will press the issue given that they all know that the electoral expense rules are shot through with holes and none of their campaigns would stand up to detailed scrutiny. There is an unwritten understanding that only the most blatant transgressions get challenged. Plus the voters don't like a rerun for legal reasons (cf Winchester).
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited August 2016

    Moses_ said:

    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.

    Worth noting that the reason that Britain is tussling with China for second is because China has become relatively worse rather than Britain becoming relatively better. China won 38 golds in London.
    We are gold in 14 different sports the closest to us is 10 sports ( or was)

    I would say on an "away match" rather than on home turf that's a massive improvement and richly deserved irrespective of what any other team achieve or don't achieve.
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    GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    IanB2 said:

    [snip]

    One small technical challenge - the tendency for Labour's voter turnout to be low in its safe seats is already allowed for in the models we all use to turn vote share into projected seats (because it happens every time and is therefore 'in the base'). Therefore it cannot be ignored as 'not mattering' when a pollster is trying to estimate actual national vote share from a set of stated voting intentions and expressed likelihood of voting statistics - to do so would be discounting the same factor twice.

    That would be true if the pollsters had accurately factored it in. My suspicion is that they haven't - hence the consistent over-reporting of the Labour share and/or the under-reporting of the Tory one in the standard polls but the accurate reporting of opinion in the exit polls. The crucial different being that the former take those who *say* they're going to vote whereas the latter take those who actually have voted. The difference between the two may be a significant factor in explaining the difference.

    I also think that on current polling, with Labour 3:1 behind on best leader and 2:1 behind on economic competence (and also behind on other big issues like immigration), there'd be a bigger differential than usual were the election now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,897

    Moses_ said:

    Tyson look away now this post has posh flashing images


    Scores on the doors for this morning

    Team GB. 24. 22. 13
    China 22. 18. 25

    Well done to all concerned even those that made the finals and it did not turn out quite as they would have hoped.

    There are at least two silvers for TeamGB to come, and a chance of at least two more golds I think.

    China could get 3-4 more golds today and tomorrow, so it's going to be close.
    Nicola Adams + Mo Farah + Tom Daley all strongish gold chances
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    Pulpstar said:
    Why is this filed in the Education section of the BBC News website?

    As usual, middle class renters get very worked up about this. Making being a landlord more difficult would be great for them, reducing house prices and making it easier for them to buy. Reducing the number of properties available to rent would be worse for poorer tenants, tending to drive up their rents. But this is all about subsidising the middle classes.

    The only long term solution to the housing shortage is to build far more properties (which in turn would reduce the attractiveness of being a landlord). Time to start using the third dimension much more.
    Taxing second and further properties at 90% of rental value p/a would free up housing stock for those who need it...

    Property gives people a stake in society; it also improves the character of neighbourhoods. Both of which are great things.

    In this case, we need both short and long-term solutions.
  • Options
    What's happened to the much vaunted supposed re-emergence of the LibDems? Ipsos-MORI's latest survey show them stuck on a lowly 7% and it seems likely that Two Taxi Tim's yellow team is destined to remain in the doldrums for the foreseeable future.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Why is this filed in the Education section of the BBC News website?

    As usual, middle class renters get very worked up about this. Making being a landlord more difficult would be great for them, reducing house prices and making it easier for them to buy. Reducing the number of properties available to rent would be worse for poorer tenants, tending to drive up their rents. But this is all about subsidising the middle classes.

    The only long term solution to the housing shortage is to build far more properties (which in turn would reduce the attractiveness of being a landlord). Time to start using the third dimension much more.
    Taxing second and further properties at 90% of rental value p/a would free up housing stock for those who need it...

    Property gives people a stake in society; it also improves the character of neighbourhoods. Both of which are great things.

    In this case, we need both short and long-term solutions.
    Properties being rented are being used by those who need them.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,099

    He didn't though, did he?

    He expanded the private sector in the NHS; he increased the acadamies programme in education; he was hardline on law and order; he maintained the privatised industries other than when circumstances forced his government's hand (and added a few new privatisations); and he launched a pre-emptive war in Iraq.

    There was little that could be defined at all as socialist that his government opted to do; still less that he rather than Brown opted to do.

    In social and constitutional matters he was a liberal radical.

    If you accept that Grant Maintained schools were academies under another name (which they were, although slightly different rules applied) he actually abolished the academy programme before shamefacedly bringing back a heavily watered down and geographically limited version when he realised that LEAs were a major problem and not the solution.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    Despite problems with the leader, I reckon Labours problems are superficial. What Labour needs to succeed is the confidence that flows from success. Chicken and egg perhaps.What Labour needs to do to is to bootstrap that process.

    IMO that confidence is what keeps the Tories afloat. If things start going wrong, they could easily find themselves where Labour is today.

    Fundamental misunderstanding of the increasingly Conservative demographic in this country; it is getting older and more Tory. Socialism was a fad; it doesn't work and isn't popular with western democracies. Socialism hasn't won since the 1970s...
    It hasn't received a working majority since 1966.
    Loving the way the Tories edit their catastrophic defeats out of history. Orwell eat your heart out.

    But we keen being told (by Labour members, no less) that Tony Blair was a Tory

    So who is engaged in doublethink?
    If Tony Blair had renationalised everything and raise the red flag over no10 those same people on the left would still call him a Tory. They call everyone they don't like Tories. Doesn't mean they are right.
    He didn't though, did he?

    He expanded the private sector in the NHS; he increased the acadamies programme in education; he was hardline on law and order; he maintained the privatised industries other than when circumstances forced his government's hand (and added a few new privatisations); and he launched a pre-emptive war in Iraq.

    There was little that could be defined at all as socialist that his government opted to do; still less that he rather than Brown opted to do.

    In social and constitutional matters he was a liberal radical.
    Minimum wage. social chapter . Devolution.
  • Options

    Mr. Scrapheap, probably get 2-3 golds from that list. May be down to silvers.

    If so, then it's no contest!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,099


    Why is this filed in the Education section of the BBC News website?

    I think we must consider the possibility it is because the editor isn't very bright and pressed the wrong button.

    I do hope they never serve on a Trident submarine (unless Jeremy Corbyn comes to power).
This discussion has been closed.