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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov polling on the reasons LAB voters from last May who’

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited August 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov polling on the reasons LAB voters from last May who’ve now switched give for their change.

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  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    First/ Gold.
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    Second / Silver.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,846
    edited August 2016
    Third / Bronze.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited August 2016
    So people actually don't like Corbyn. Who woulda thunk it?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    As someone who has lived there, that's not how I remember it!
  • Options
    Corbynism sweeping the nation.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Sixth: Flint Axe
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited August 2016
    FPT
    Tim_B said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    John_M said:

    HYUFD said:

    The latest tourism data shows that the UK's earnings were 2% down during the 12 months to the end of June but expenditure abroad was 12% up:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/leisureandtourism/bulletins/overseastravelandtourism/provisionalresultsforjune2016

    It will be interesting to see if the anecdotes of increased foreign tourists are borne out in future data.

    Given the large numbers of tourists rushing to London because of the cheap pound and many Brits taking staycations in Blackpool and Southend and Cornwall rather than going to the Med for the same reason I expect UK tourism to be the biggest BREXIT gainer in post June figures and foreign package holiday companies amongst the biggest losers
    We're having a record-breaking season here. Partly because everywhere else looks risky.

    Forgive my lack of humility andcompassion, but I am enjoying the Remainers on my time line. Reduced to posting stories about a Gateshead architectural practice going out of business with the loss of 18 jobs.

    They just need to keep their powder dry. There will be a reckoning for Brexit, just not quite yet.
    Yes but the reckoning will hit Thomas Cook and city banks and maybe some manufacturers too, especially if it is a hard BREXIT, however Blackpool landladies and Devonshire B and B owners are winners regardless, indeed the worse BREXIT gets and the more the £ falls, the more the average holidaymaker will not be able to afford to take their family abroad hence booking with them instead. Add in a few more terrorist attacks in the Mediterrenean and the desire to stay safe at home and you could almost say the UK tourism industry ought to be praying for bad news, morbid as it sounds
    UK Tourism does not have the capacity for that - at least now. Therefore, prices will rise and will be close enough to foreign destinations.
    From what I've heard of Blackpool recently, they have plenty of excess capacity.

    What do the donkeys on Blackpool Beach get for lunch? An hour just like everyone else :smile:

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2016
    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    There is a bigger problem for Brits, the number of well paid skilled jobs that would afford them the sort of lifestyle used to in the UK aren't two a penny. Even Australia a lot of brits have got a nasty shock of cost of living vs pay. & that is somewhere where you can get a well paid skilled job fairly easily.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited August 2016
    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Just back from meeting Owen Smith this evening at a phone bank while spending a couple of hours canvassing fellow members on the phone.

    From my sample Don is right - it is certainly not going to be a walkover for Corbyn. Compared to 2015, the Burnham/Cooper/Kendall supporters were all solidly for Smith and there was a significant amount of switching from 2015 Corbyn voters. I don't think that I had that many recent sign-ups on my list though. Others there reported similar findings.

    As for Smith I was impressed by how quick witted he is as an individual, confirming the impression gained from his media appearances.

    LOL.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2016
    First, second, third........Well down the table like Australia.....
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    First.

    Once the others get DQed*.

    * I'll think of something.

  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    B sample.
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    My excuse for being well down the table...stuck in the broken lift in my Rio apartment in the athletes village....
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    I thought this word cloud summed it best

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/767808852309991425
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    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    As someone who has lived there, that's not how I remember it!
    I loved my visits to New Zealand, though New Zealand literally is Mordor.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
  • Options
    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091



    From my sample Don is right - it is certainly not going to be a walkover for Corbyn. Compared to 2015, the Burnham/Cooper/Kendall supporters were all solidly for Smith and there was a significant amount of switching from 2015 Corbyn voters. I don't think that I had that many recent sign-ups on my list though. Others there reported similar findings.

    By contrast, my circle in our CLP lent towards Burnham in 2015, but is now universally pro-Corbyn.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2016

    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The desperation from these MPs continues to get greater.

    For all Corbyn's many flaws, I don't think there's many people who would seriously believe he's a racist (or at least, not racist against anyone who isn't Jewish anyway).
  • Options
    Danny565 said:

    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The desperation from these MPs continues to get greater.

    For all Corbyn's many flaws, I don't think there's many people who would seriously believe he's a racist (or at least, not racist against anyone who isn't Jewish anyway).
    Jews don't count?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Danny565 said:

    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The desperation from these MPs continues to get greater.

    For all Corbyn's many flaws, I don't think there's many people who would seriously believe he's a racist (or at least, not racist against anyone who isn't Jewish anyway).
    Jews don't count?
    He appears to be racist against Americans too.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The desperation from these MPs continues to get greater.

    For all Corbyn's many flaws, I don't think there's many people who would seriously believe he's a racist (or at least, not racist against anyone who isn't Jewish anyway).
    Jews don't count?
    Yes, they do - unfortunately, a lot of left-wingers (Corbyn included) have a "blind spot" when it comes to racism against Jewish people, because they wrongly think by nature it's impossible to be racist against "white" people.

    However, that's neither here nor there when it comes to discussing Chi Onwurah; I don't think there's anyone who seriously believes Corbyn dismissed her because she is black. This is just yet another desperate lie from these MPs, to go on the scrapheap along with that utter nonsense one of them was spinning about John McDonnell "breaking into her office" not so long ago.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
  • Options
    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Because they know that if they get eg the Irish to vote again on a Treaty, that the don't want to leave Europe and so will at a push cave in.

    We actually DO want to leave Europe already and if we were told to vote again they would get the biggest "who the f**k do you think you are" result that would make the Winchester 1997 by-election look like a good idea.

    TL;DR it would be pointless to get us to vote again so why waste time suggesting it.
  • Options
    FPT:
    HYUFD said:

    Saying English speaking countries rather than British Empire is much more effective (and it includes the US unlike the Commonwealth)

    I’m not sure what this proves (apart from the obvious fact that I’ve got too much time on my hands), but I’ve compiled a medal table according to language. It’s not very scientific, as it’s based on the main or official language(s) of each nation, rather than of the individual competitor. In the case of countries with more than one official language, I’ve divided the medals between the two main languages (any more than two would make things too complicated, e.g. South Africa with eleven…).

    Half-medals have been rounded up to integers to make the table look neater! Only languages with a medal total of 10 or more are shown.

    Go English!
     

    Gold

    Silver

    Bronze

    Total
    English

    99

    95

    85

    279
    Chinese

    27

    18

    28

    73
    Russian

    22

    25

    28

    75
    Spanish

    19

    13

    18

    50
    German

    19

    11

    17

    47
    French

    16

    23

    25

    64
    Japanese

    12

    8

    21

    41
    Korean

    11

    6

    11

    28
    Dutch

    9

    8

    5

    22
    Italian

    8

    12

    8

    28
    Hungarian

    8

    3

    4

    15
    Portuguese

    7

    6

    7

    20
    Croatian

    5

    3

    2

    10
    Uzbek

    4

    2

    7

    13
    Danish

    2

    6

    7

    15
    Swedish

    2

    6

    3

    11
    Arabic

    2

    4

    9

    15
    Polish

    2

    3

    6

    11
    Azerbaijani

    1

    7

    10

    18
    Czech

    1

    2

    7

    10
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited August 2016
    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
    Not for the faint of heart:

    http://www.conservationinstitute.org/10-of-the-worlds-largest-spiders/

    PS Of these, I have only come face to face with a camel spider, in the Empty Quarter in Yemen.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:

    Saying English speaking countries rather than British Empire is much more effective (and it includes the US unlike the Commonwealth)

    I’m not sure what this proves (apart from the obvious fact that I’ve got too much time on my hands), but I’ve compiled a medal table according to language. It’s not very scientific, as it’s based on the main or official language(s) of each nation, rather than of the individual competitor. In the case of countries with more than one official language, I’ve divided the medals between the two main languages (any more than two would make things too complicated, e.g. South Africa with eleven…).

    Half-medals have been rounded up to integers to make the table look neater! Only languages with a medal total of 10 or more are shown.

    Go English!
     

    Gold

    Silver

    Bronze

    Total
    English

    99

    95

    85

    279
    Chinese

    27

    18

    28

    73
    Russian

    22

    25

    28

    75
    Spanish

    19

    13

    18

    50
    German

    19

    11

    17

    47
    French

    16

    23

    25

    64
    The six official language of the UN are Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish. Spot the odd one out.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Tim_B said:

    From what I've heard of Blackpool recently, they have plenty of excess capacity.

    What do the donkeys on Blackpool Beach get for lunch? An hour just like everyone else :smile:

    Hey Tim, worked out which team you are going to watch after Christmas this year yet?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited August 2016
    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    They have not always done it if they don't think they can overturn the result, eg the Swedish and Danish votes against the Euro are still standing and neither nation has yet joined the single currency
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    Rugby and sheep
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
    Not for the faint of heart:

    http://www.conservationinstitute.org/10-of-the-worlds-largest-spiders/

    PS Of these, I have only come face to face with a camel spider, in the Empty Quarter in Yemen.
    What were you doing over there ?
    Trying to find the lost city of the Queen of Sheba ?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited August 2016

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:

    Saying English speaking countries rather than British Empire is much more effective (and it includes the US unlike the Commonwealth)

    I’m not sure what this pro

    Half-medals have been rounded up to integers to make the table look neater! Only languages with a medal total of 10 or more are shown.

    Go English!
     

    Gold

    Silver

    Bronze

    Total
    English

    99

    95

    85

    279
    Chinese

    27

    18

    28

    73
    Russian

    22

    25

    28

    75
    Spanish

    19

    13

    18

    50
    German

    19

    11

    17

    47
    French

    16

    23

    25

    64
    Japanese

    12

    8

    21

    41
    Korean

    11

    6

    11

    28
    Dutch

    9

    8

    5

    22
    Italian

    8

    12

    8

    28
    Hungarian

    8

    3

    4

    15
    Portuguese

    7

    6

    7

    20
    Croatian

    5

    3

    2

    10
    Uzbek

    4

    2

    7

    13
    Danish

    2

    6

    7

    15
    Swedish

    2

    6

    3

    11
    Arabic

    2

    4

    9

    15
    Polish

    2

    3

    6

    11
    Azerbaijani

    1

    7

    10

    18
    Czech

    1

    2

    7

    10
    Yes, case proved and also goes to show why we are so lazy at learning foreign languages
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Germany plans to tell its citizens to stockpile food and water in case of an attack or catastrophe for the first time since the end of the Cold War, according to reports.
    The proposals, which Angela Merkel’s government is set to discuss at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday, have not yet been made public.
    But according to details leaked to the German press they include advice to citizens to stockpile enough food for ten days and clean drinking water for five days.
    “The population should be urged by appropriate means to keep two litres of drinking water per person per day,” Frankfurter Allgemeine Sontagszeitung quoted a government paper as saying."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/22/german-defence-plan-tells-citizens-to-hoard-food-and-water/
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Everyone else has said no to an EU proposal so they can come back with a slightly amended version and still retain forward momentum.

    We've told them we want to leave - a compromise with us would result in a reverse manouvre
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    AndyJS said:

    "Germany plans to tell its citizens to stockpile food and water in case of an attack or catastrophe for the first time since the end of the Cold War, according to reports.
    The proposals, which Angela Merkel’s government is set to discuss at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday, have not yet been made public.
    But according to details leaked to the German press they include advice to citizens to stockpile enough food for ten days and clean drinking water for five days.
    “The population should be urged by appropriate means to keep two litres of drinking water per person per day,” Frankfurter Allgemeine Sontagszeitung quoted a government paper as saying."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/22/german-defence-plan-tells-citizens-to-hoard-food-and-water/

    :open_mouth:
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,821
    Members of the leader’s office have already been quietly texting former shadow cabinet members to see if they are prepared to come back if Mr Corbyn wins the leadership contest.

    A source insisted several former frontbenchers have been receptive to the proposal.

    But one "moderate" apparently quoted as saying “I got the text. I told them to f*** off.”

  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    It's the sheep and rugby too then? Though there are more vowels in Wales - New Zealand only having the one: "euh", as in Australia sucks N Zealand seven
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    A weekly update to my 2016 average daily tracking poll:

    Hillary 46.5 nc
    Trump 41 +0.5

    Since the start on August 1st:

    Hillary 46.5 46.5 47 47 44
    Trump 41 40.5 41 41 41

    Remarkable stability since the beginning of August.
    In the state polls Trump has slumped in Florida and losing more ground in Ohio, that is more significant than the national picture.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
    Not for the faint of heart:

    http://www.conservationinstitute.org/10-of-the-worlds-largest-spiders/

    PS Of these, I have only come face to face with a camel spider, in the Empty Quarter in Yemen.
    3 out of the top 5 come from Brazil and South America, so probably best the athletes did not venture too far outside the Olympic village!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025
    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Everyone else has said no to an EU proposal so they can come back with a slightly amended version and still retain forward momentum.

    We've told them we want to leave - a compromise with us would result in a reverse manouvre
    Tsipras's referendum gambit during the debt crisis also changed the game. They don't want to give anyone the impression that a national government can use a referendum as a tactic to extract concessions.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The desperation from these MPs continues to get greater.

    For all Corbyn's many flaws, I don't think there's many people who would seriously believe he's a racist (or at least, not racist against anyone who isn't Jewish anyway).
    Jews don't count?
    Yes, they do - unfortunately, a lot of left-wingers (Corbyn included) have a "blind spot" when it comes to racism against Jewish people, because they wrongly think by nature it's impossible to be racist against "white" people.

    However, that's neither here nor there when it comes to discussing Chi Onwurah; I don't think there's anyone who seriously believes Corbyn dismissed her because she is black. This is just yet another desperate lie from these MPs, to go on the scrapheap along with that utter nonsense one of them was spinning about John McDonnell "breaking into her office" not so long ago.
    You can't be racist if ur non white or sexist if ur woman, according to the twitterati.

    Meanwhile in Sweden.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3753225/Boy-eight-dies-GRENADE-thrown-bedroom-slept-amid-gangland-feud-involving-Somali-criminals-Sweden.html
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Because they know that if they get eg the Irish to vote again on a Treaty, that the don't want to leave Europe and so will at a push cave in.

    We actually DO want to leave Europe already and if we were told to vote again they would get the biggest "who the f**k do you think you are" result that would make the Winchester 1997 by-election look like a good idea.

    TL;DR it would be pointless to get us to vote again so why waste time suggesting it.
    Quite. The Rubicon was crossed and they know it.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    PlatoSaid said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Germany plans to tell its citizens to stockpile food and water in case of an attack or catastrophe for the first time since the end of the Cold War, according to reports.
    The proposals, which Angela Merkel’s government is set to discuss at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday, have not yet been made public.
    But according to details leaked to the German press they include advice to citizens to stockpile enough food for ten days and clean drinking water for five days.
    “The population should be urged by appropriate means to keep two litres of drinking water per person per day,” Frankfurter Allgemeine Sontagszeitung quoted a government paper as saying."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/22/german-defence-plan-tells-citizens-to-hoard-food-and-water/

    :open_mouth:
    I think putting up walls around their cities to keep the refugees out might help.
    It surely did for the communities of 5th century europe.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025
    welshowl said:

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Because they know that if they get eg the Irish to vote again on a Treaty, that the don't want to leave Europe and so will at a push cave in.

    We actually DO want to leave Europe already and if we were told to vote again they would get the biggest "who the f**k do you think you are" result that would make the Winchester 1997 by-election look like a good idea.

    TL;DR it would be pointless to get us to vote again so why waste time suggesting it.
    Quite. The Rubicon was crossed and they know it.
    It's the instability caused by a British government delaying indefinitely until we get an optimal deal that they're afraid of. Triggering Article 50 is completely at Theresa May's discretion and they know.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
    Not for the faint of heart:

    http://www.conservationinstitute.org/10-of-the-worlds-largest-spiders/

    PS Of these, I have only come face to face with a camel spider, in the Empty Quarter in Yemen.
    What were you doing over there ?
    Trying to find the lost city of the Queen of Sheba ?
    No, this was about 50-100 miles east of Ma'reb (supposed home of Sheba). I was in the Embassy, a long whiles back.

    It was in the days when understanding what was going on in the country you were posted to was considered important, so I would occasionally take a week out just to drive deep into the remoter parts of the country for a shufti. On this occasion, I'd taken someone to see the marvelous ruins in the Jawf valley, including the amazing walled city on a tell - Baraqish, and we just carried on for a while once we hit the sand to see whether there was anyone out there. Found some bedu and stayed with them overnight.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    nunu said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Shadow minister accuses Jeremy Corbyn of discrimination

    Chi Onwurah says ‘in any other job, Jeremy Corbyn would have faced an industrial tribunal’ for his behaviour

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/22/ex-shadow-minister-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-of-discrimination?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The desperation from these MPs continues to get greater.

    For all Corbyn's many flaws, I don't think there's many people who would seriously believe he's a racist (or at least, not racist against anyone who isn't Jewish anyway).
    Jews don't count?
    Yes, they do - unfortunately, a lot of left-wingers (Corbyn included) have a "blind spot" when it comes to racism against Jewish people, because they wrongly think by nature it's impossible to be racist against "white" people.

    However, that's neither here nor there when it comes to discussing Chi Onwurah; I don't think there's anyone who seriously believes Corbyn dismissed her because she is black. This is just yet another desperate lie from these MPs, to go on the scrapheap along with that utter nonsense one of them was spinning about John McDonnell "breaking into her office" not so long ago.
    You can't be racist if ur non white or sexist if ur woman, according to the twitterati.

    Meanwhile in Sweden.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3753225/Boy-eight-dies-GRENADE-thrown-bedroom-slept-amid-gangland-feud-involving-Somali-criminals-Sweden.html
    I've been telling for years how bad things are in Malmo and the rest of Sweden.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,821
    If Corbyn's a racist. I'm a Thatcherite
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,633
    Charles said:

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Everyone else has said no to an EU proposal so they can come back with a slightly amended version and still retain forward momentum.

    We've told them we want to leave - a compromise with us would result in a reverse manouvre
    Indeed. It would be more immediately damaging to the project to do that, and even damaging to appear to be giving us too good a deal (which is not the same as giving us a good deal) as if they came back with an offer so good it might tempt us to stay (leaving aside the moment the political difficulty in UK politicians putting the break on Brexit even in such a scenario) then they would open themselves up to essentially blackmail. You'd get referendums to leave popping up all over, in the secure knowledge that's how you get the EU to offer you a great deal in order to stay.

    Members of the leader’s office have already been quietly texting former shadow cabinet members to see if they are prepared to come back if Mr Corbyn wins the leadership contest.

    A source insisted several former frontbenchers have been receptive to the proposal.

    But one "moderate" apparently quoted as saying “I got the text. I told them to f*** off.”

    I'm struggling to see why it'd be a good idea from either side. Ok, Corbyn gets to play the magnanimous card, but either he was crap to them before and they quit, and why would he change now so why offer them a role, or they messed with him for no reason and who's to say they won't again.

    On the other side, my recollection is one of them has already unresigned, which looks bloody silly, and it will be very hard to anyone crawling back to be credible - they said he was crap at his job, not that his ideas were bad and he couldn't win among the members, so him beating them is no reason to accept a job back, their belief he would lead them to disaster would still apply.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    If Corbyn's a racist. I'm a Thatcherite
    He certainly enjoyed Diane Abbott's company!!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited August 2016
    Speedy said:

    A weekly update to my 2016 average daily tracking poll:

    Hillary 46.5 nc
    Trump 41 +0.5

    Since the start on August 1st:

    Hillary 46.5 46.5 47 47 44
    Trump 41 40.5 41 41 41

    Remarkable stability since the beginning of August.
    In the state polls Trump has slumped in Florida and losing more ground in Ohio, that is more significant than the national picture.

    Hillary's lead has clearly narrowed a little since the DNC convention and today's Monmouth Ohio poll had Hillary ahead by 4%, Romney lost Ohio by 3%, McCain by almost 5% so Trump is presently doing a little better than McCain and a little worse than Romney (of course after Romney won the first debate he took the lead, although he failed to capitalise on it)
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Because they know that if they get eg the Irish to vote again on a Treaty, that the don't want to leave Europe and so will at a push cave in.

    We actually DO want to leave Europe already and if we were told to vote again they would get the biggest "who the f**k do you think you are" result that would make the Winchester 1997 by-election look like a good idea.

    TL;DR it would be pointless to get us to vote again so why waste time suggesting it.
    Quite. The Rubicon was crossed and they know it.
    It's the instability caused by a British government delaying indefinitely until we get an optimal deal that they're afraid of. Triggering Article 50 is completely at Theresa May's discretion and they know.
    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,363
    edited August 2016
    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
    There's more to life than weather. New Zealand has always looked magnificent to my eyes: if I wasn't British, I'd rather like to be a New Zealander. Plus, they speak English (massive plus for me and for other monoglots) and if your more into the outdoors than the cultural high life it has obvious attractions.

    However, I don't understand particularly why Britons dismayed by the vote to leave the EU would emigrate there. Surely they are aware that New Zealand isn't in the EU, either? Canada has apparently seen a similar surge of interest. I would have thought the places that most Europhiles might be keen to emigrate to should Britain leave the EU might be a tad more, er, European. But apparently not.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:

    Saying English speaking countries rather than British Empire is much more effective (and it includes the US unlike the Commonwealth)

    I’m not sure what this pro

    Half-medals have been rounded up to integers to make the table look neater! Only languages with a medal total of 10 or more are shown.

    Go English!
     

    Gold

    Silver

    Bronze

    Total
    English

    99

    95

    85

    279
    Chinese

    27

    18

    28

    73
    Russian

    22

    25

    28

    75
    Spanish

    19

    13

    18

    50
    German

    19

    11

    17

    47
    French

    16

    23

    25

    64
    Japanese

    12

    8

    21

    41
    Korean

    11

    6

    11

    28
    Dutch

    9

    8

    5

    22
    Italian

    8

    12

    8

    28
    Hungarian

    8

    3

    4

    15
    Portuguese

    7

    6

    7

    20
    Croatian

    5

    3

    2

    10
    Uzbek

    4

    2

    7

    13
    Danish

    2

    6

    7

    15
    Swedish

    2

    6

    3

    11
    Arabic

    2

    4

    9

    15
    Polish

    2

    3

    6

    11
    Azerbaijani

    1

    7

    10

    18
    Czech

    1

    2

    7

    10
    Yes, case proved and also goes to show why we are so lazy at learning foreign languages
    We don't need to.

    I've been in France for a couple of days and nearly everybody that I've spoken French to has replied in English.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,633
    Cookie said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
    There's more to life than weather. New Zealand has always looked magnificent to my eyes: if I wasn't British, I'd rather like to be a New Zealander. Plus, they speak English (massive plus for me and for other monoglots) and if your more into the outdoors than the cultural high life it has obvious attractions.

    However, I don't understand particularly why Britons dismayed by the vote to leave the EU would emigrate there. Surely they are aware that New Zealand isn't in the EU, either? Canada has apparently seen a similar surge of interest. I would have thought the places that most Europhiles might be keen to emigrate to should Britain leave the EU might be a tad more, er, European. But apparently not.
    Canada is run by a hip young liberal. In addition to being a very fine country, that will no doubt play well with many in considering options.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025

    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:

    Saying English speaking countries rather than British Empire is much more effective (and it includes the US unlike the Commonwealth)

    I’m not sure what this pro

    Half-medals have been rounded up to integers to make the table look neater! Only languages with a medal total of 10 or more are shown.

    Go English!
     

    Gold

    Silver

    Bronze

    Total
    English

    99

    95

    85

    279
    Chinese

    27

    18

    28

    73
    Russian

    22

    25

    28

    75
    Spanish

    19

    13

    18

    50
    German

    19

    11

    17

    47
    French

    16

    23

    25

    64
    Japanese

    12

    8

    21

    41
    Korean

    11

    6

    11

    28
    Dutch

    9

    8

    5

    22
    Italian

    8

    12

    8

    28
    Hungarian

    8

    3

    4

    15
    Portuguese

    7

    6

    7

    20
    Croatian

    5

    3

    2

    10
    Uzbek

    4

    2

    7

    13
    Danish

    2

    6

    7

    15
    Swedish

    2

    6

    3

    11
    Arabic

    2

    4

    9

    15
    Polish

    2

    3

    6

    11
    Azerbaijani

    1

    7

    10

    18
    Czech

    1

    2

    7

    10
    Yes, case proved and also goes to show why we are so lazy at learning foreign languages
    We don't need to.

    I've been in France for a couple of days and nearly everybody that I've spoken French to has replied in English.
    Mange tout Rodders.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Because they know that if they get eg the Irish to vote again on a Treaty, that the don't want to leave Europe and so will at a push cave in.

    We actually DO want to leave Europe already and if we were told to vote again they would get the biggest "who the f**k do you think you are" result that would make the Winchester 1997 by-election look like a good idea.

    TL;DR it would be pointless to get us to vote again so why waste time suggesting it.
    Quite. The Rubicon was crossed and they know it.
    It's the instability caused by a British government delaying indefinitely until we get an optimal deal that they're afraid of. Triggering Article 50 is completely at Theresa May's discretion and they know.
    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.
    The essential thing about such preliminary negotiations is that they are not conducted in public. I am sure the FCO has been working away for weeks - its one reason why we have embassies in this enlightened and wired world.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited August 2016
    The Brits are, apparently, the most promiscuous emigrants in the world. Over five million in our diaspora. The recent peak was ~200k in 2010, dropping to ~130k last year.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
    Not for the faint of heart:

    http://www.conservationinstitute.org/10-of-the-worlds-largest-spiders/

    PS Of these, I have only come face to face with a camel spider, in the Empty Quarter in Yemen.
    What were you doing over there ?
    Trying to find the lost city of the Queen of Sheba ?
    No, this was about 50-100 miles east of Ma'reb (supposed home of Sheba). I was in the Embassy, a long whiles back.

    It was in the days when understanding what was going on in the country you were posted to was considered important, so I would occasionally take a week out just to drive deep into the remoter parts of the country for a shufti. On this occasion, I'd taken someone to see the marvelous ruins in the Jawf valley, including the amazing walled city on a tell - Baraqish, and we just carried on for a while once we hit the sand to see whether there was anyone out there. Found some bedu and stayed with them overnight.
    If you tried to take that trip today you would be lucky to survive execution from the warlords.

    It will probably be many years or decades for a foreigner to be able to visit those places again.
    So cherish those pictures if you took any.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    MTimT said:

    As a Brexiteer, I am happy that no-one in Europe is trying to undo the result by pushing for a second referendum and are treating its results as irreversible. See this story which states that "Merkel said she regretted the "irreversible" Brexit decision."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-brexit-eu-c497aa60-686b-11e6-91cb-ecb5418830e9-20160822-story.html

    But it does get me wondering why, after time and time again urging other electorates to vote until they get the right result, the EU is not pursuing that approach with the UK. Do PBers think that it is because the Eurocrats truly believe that a USE is more achievable without the UK in the fold? But how does that account for Merkel's comments?

    Because they know that if they get eg the Irish to vote again on a Treaty, that the don't want to leave Europe and so will at a push cave in.

    We actually DO want to leave Europe already and if we were told to vote again they would get the biggest "who the f**k do you think you are" result that would make the Winchester 1997 by-election look like a good idea.

    TL;DR it would be pointless to get us to vote again so why waste time suggesting it.
    Quite. The Rubicon was crossed and they know it.
    It's the instability caused by a British government delaying indefinitely until we get an optimal deal that they're afraid of. Triggering Article 50 is completely at Theresa May's discretion and they know.
    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.
    The essential thing about such preliminary negotiations is that they are not conducted in public. I am sure the FCO has been working away for weeks - its one reason why we have embassies in this enlightened and wired world.
    Indeed. Dirty linen in public and all that. I'm sure soundings are going on over drinky poohs and Ferrero Rocher all over Europe. Otherwise what are we paying for with the embassies!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    HYUFD said:

    Saying English speaking countries rather than British Empire is much more effective (and it includes the US unlike the Commonwealth)

    I’m not sure what this pro

    Half-medals have been rounded up to integers to make the table look neater! Only languages with a medal total of 10 or more are shown.

    Go English!
     

    Gold

    Silver

    Bronze

    Total
    English

    99

    95

    85

    279
    Chinese

    27

    18

    28

    73
    Russian

    22

    25

    28

    75
    Spanish

    19

    13

    18

    50
    German

    19

    11

    17

    47
    French

    16

    23

    25

    64
    Japanese

    12

    8

    21

    41
    Korean

    11

    6

    11

    28
    Dutch

    9

    8

    5

    22
    Italian

    8

    12

    8

    28
    Hungarian

    8

    3

    4

    15
    Portuguese

    7

    6

    7

    20
    Croatian

    5

    3

    2

    10
    Uzbek

    4

    2

    7

    13
    Danish

    2

    6

    7

    15
    Swedish

    2

    6

    3

    11
    Arabic

    2

    4

    9

    15
    Polish

    2

    3

    6

    11
    Azerbaijani

    1

    7

    10

    18
    Yes, case proved and also goes to show why we are so lazy at learning foreign languages
    We don't need to.

    I've been in France for a couple of days and nearly everybody that I've spoken French to has replied in English.
    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    welsh owl said:

    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.

    What would PBers want? To me, something like this would be good:

    1. No UK payments to the EU budget period
    2. No incorporation of EU law into British law; supremacy of UK courts
    3. Modified freedom of movement (reciprocal for EU citizens in UK/UK citizens in EU)
    - grandfathering for those already in the country/EU
    - anyone with a valid job offer or intending to invest in a new business gets automatic work visa
    - other rules at discretion of EU/UK but might include fast track to residency/citizenship
    4. FTA on manufactured goods and parts
    5. Services - I am not sure what we could or should be asking for here. Clearly at least as good as the Swiss/Canadians/US.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    A weekly update to my 2016 average daily tracking poll:

    Hillary 46.5 nc
    Trump 41 +0.5

    Since the start on August 1st:

    Hillary 46.5 46.5 47 47 44
    Trump 41 40.5 41 41 41

    Remarkable stability since the beginning of August.
    In the state polls Trump has slumped in Florida and losing more ground in Ohio, that is more significant than the national picture.

    Hillary's lead has clearly narrowed a little since the DNC convention and today's Monmouth Ohio poll had Hillary ahead by 4%, Romney lost Ohio by 3%, McCain by almost 5% so Trump is presently doing a little better than McCain and a little worse than Romney (of course after Romney won the first debate he took the lead, although he failed to capitalise on it)
    National polls don't mean much, it's the state polls that matter.

    The national polls are more about morale, but the state polls say how close Trump is to winning.
    And right now he is 8-10 points behind in Pennsylvania, 4-6 in Ohio and about 4-5 in Florida.

    Pennsylvania is the key, that is why Hillary is still campaigning there and throwing money there, despite being ahead by almost double digits.

    Trump needs to win all 3, Hillary needs to win only 1.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:


    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort

    That, in itself, is a huge change from 10-20 years ago. Then, unless you spoke French, they'd sneer at you, and if you did try French, they'd speak at 200 words a minute to ensure you did not understand them.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
    There's more to life than weather. New Zealand has always looked magnificent to my eyes: if I wasn't British, I'd rather like to be a New Zealander. Plus, they speak English (massive plus for me and for other monoglots) and if your more into the outdoors than the cultural high life it has obvious attractions.

    However, I don't understand particularly why Britons dismayed by the vote to leave the EU would emigrate there. Surely they are aware that New Zealand isn't in the EU, either? Canada has apparently seen a similar surge of interest. I would have thought the places that most Europhiles might be keen to emigrate to should Britain leave the EU might be a tad more, er, European. But apparently not.
    Canada is run by a hip young liberal. In addition to being a very fine country, that will no doubt play well with many in considering options.
    Indeed and Quebec is more Francophile than France
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MTimT said:

    welsh owl said:

    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.

    What would PBers want? To me, something like this would be good:

    1. No UK payments to the EU budget period
    2. No incorporation of EU law into British law; supremacy of UK courts
    3. Modified freedom of movement (reciprocal for EU citizens in UK/UK citizens in EU)
    - grandfathering for those already in the country/EU
    - anyone with a valid job offer or intending to invest in a new business gets automatic work visa
    - other rules at discretion of EU/UK but might include fast track to residency/citizenship
    4. FTA on manufactured goods and parts
    5. Services - I am not sure what we could or should be asking for here. Clearly at least as good as the Swiss/Canadians/US.
    That's a good check list.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
    If the weather in NZ is so continuously awful how do they manage to make some really jolly good wines? We regularly take a very nice NZ Sauvignon Blanc at £6.50 a bottle, which of far better quality for the price than anything one can get from Europe or even Australia.

    I rather think that the original comment that New Zealand is "cold, miserable and it always rains." Is just plain bollocks from a serial moaner.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    And also to drink some of their wine. You couldn't grow grapes like that in the UK.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    Speedy said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London
    Could never move to Australia: :o

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zhoPtDprVU8

    That's a baby!

    There is that risk yes, though Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide are generally reasonably safe from too many unwelcome creatures
    Not for the faint of heart:

    http://www.conservationinstitute.org/10-of-the-worlds-largest-spiders/

    PS Of these, I have only come face to face with a camel spider, in the Empty Quarter in Yemen.
    What were you doing over there ?
    Trying to find the lost city of the Queen of Sheba ?
    No, this was about 50-100 miles east of Ma'reb (supposed home of Sheba). I was in the Embassy, a long whiles back.

    It was in the days when understanding what was going on in the country you were posted to was considered important, so I would occasionally take a week out just to drive deep into the remoter parts of the country for a shufti. On this occasion, I'd taken someone to see the marvelous ruins in the Jawf valley, including the amazing walled city on a tell - Baraqish, and we just carried on for a while once we hit the sand to see whether there was anyone out there. Found some bedu and stayed with them overnight.
    If you tried to take that trip today you would be lucky to survive execution from the warlords.

    It will probably be many years or decades for a foreigner to be able to visit those places again.
    So cherish those pictures if you took any.
    Even in those days the tribes in the Jawf were particularly fractious. The trip was not without its interesting moments involving heavily armed tribesmen.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    MTimT said:

    welsh owl said:

    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.

    What would PBers want? To me, something like this would be good:

    1. No UK payments to the EU budget period
    2. No incorporation of EU law into British law; supremacy of UK courts
    3. Modified freedom of movement (reciprocal for EU citizens in UK/UK citizens in EU)
    - grandfathering for those already in the country/EU
    - anyone with a valid job offer or intending to invest in a new business gets automatic work visa
    - other rules at discretion of EU/UK but might include fast track to residency/citizenship
    4. FTA on manufactured goods and parts
    5. Services - I am not sure what we could or should be asking for here. Clearly at least as good as the Swiss/Canadians/US.
    Yeah pretty much. Might add the caveat that job should be on say 80% of median earnings ( back checked by HMRC tax receipts the following year).

    Otherwise I'd be happy with your proposal. I'd even not die in the last trench about chipping in to the budget a bit. The essential is we have control of who resides here, not them, and that our courts are supreme not theirs. Had enough ECJ and ECHR for the moment thanks.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    edited August 2016

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
    If the weather in NZ is so continuously awful how do they manage to make some really jolly good wines? We regularly take a very nice NZ Sauvignon Blanc at £6.50 a bottle, which of far better quality for the price than anything one can get from Europe or even Australia.

    I rather think that the original comment that New Zealand is "cold, miserable and it always rains." Is just plain bollocks from a serial moaner.
    Maybe it was on Ozzie TV because it was unusually awful? Or the Ozzie's just enjoy making NZ out to be a wet and windy place. I wasn't there long enough to tell.

    Edit/ on the wine-making, NZ is on a latitude that means the sun will be hot, when it's out. I rather suspect they have less need for irrigation than the Australian vineyards...
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,363
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:


    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort

    That, in itself, is a huge change from 10-20 years ago. Then, unless you spoke French, they'd sneer at you, and if you did try French, they'd speak at 200 words a minute to ensure you did not understand them.
    To be fair, in my experience, that was the Parisians, rather than the French as a whole.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    And also to drink some of their wine. You couldn't grow grapes like that in the UK.
    I suppose it makes a huge difference if you're in Hawkes Bay vs Dunedin.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Cookie said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:


    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort

    That, in itself, is a huge change from 10-20 years ago. Then, unless you spoke French, they'd sneer at you, and if you did try French, they'd speak at 200 words a minute to ensure you did not understand them.
    To be fair, in my experience, that was the Parisians, rather than the French as a whole.
    True
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MTimT said:

    welsh owl said:

    Though once triggered it's two years and out. For this reason I simply cannot see that in the real world, behind the scenes, informal negotiations aren't ( or won't be soon ) going on. Both sides have much to gain by being sensible. We are going to want some inkling of their position before firing the starting gun, they are going to want to know we're going to play some kind of ball, and not go for very hard Brexit.

    What would PBers want? To me, something like this would be good:

    1. No UK payments to the EU budget period
    2. No incorporation of EU law into British law; supremacy of UK courts
    3. Modified freedom of movement (reciprocal for EU citizens in UK/UK citizens in EU)
    - grandfathering for those already in the country/EU
    - anyone with a valid job offer or intending to invest in a new business gets automatic work visa
    - other rules at discretion of EU/UK but might include fast track to residency/citizenship
    4. FTA on manufactured goods and parts
    5. Services - I am not sure what we could or should be asking for here. Clearly at least as good as the Swiss/Canadians/US.
    I'd be happy with that. With one addition, the UK gets the final say on who we let in and who we chuck out.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:


    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort

    That, in itself, is a huge change from 10-20 years ago. Then, unless you spoke French, they'd sneer at you, and if you did try French, they'd speak at 200 words a minute to ensure you did not understand them.
    Also at dinner today in Cannes, a couple of youngish student types were talking to each other in Spanish but to the waiter in English.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    Adelaide is a mini Melbourne in many ways only bit warmer. Proper Mediterranean climate.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:


    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort

    That, in itself, is a huge change from 10-20 years ago. Then, unless you spoke French, they'd sneer at you, and if you did try French, they'd speak at 200 words a minute to ensure you did not understand them.
    Also at dinner today in Cannes, a couple of youngish student types were talking to each other in Spanish but to the waiter in English.
    Tbf that happens all over - I have often been in Italy and heard Dutch, Scandinavian and Iberian tourists speaking English to the Italians.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Replying to @kle4

    You'd get referendums to leave popping up all over, in the secure knowledge that's how you get the EU to offer you a great deal in order to stay.

    IIRC, Boris Johnson actually stated that his ideal was to use a Leave decision as a lever to get a better Remain deal.


    it will be very hard to anyone crawling back to be credible - they said he was crap at his job, not that his ideas were bad and he couldn't win among the members, so him beating them is no reason to accept a job back, their belief he would lead them to disaster would still apply.

    Not so sure they wouldn't be credible. It is arguably the PLP's duty to warn the membership of their fears about GE chances. Having done so, if the members are determined to stick with Mr Corbyn, then the MPs may consider it their duty to try to make it work.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,633
    AnneJGP said:

    Replying to @kle4

    You'd get referendums to leave popping up all over, in the secure knowledge that's how you get the EU to offer you a great deal in order to stay.

    IIRC, Boris Johnson actually stated that his ideal was to use a Leave decision as a lever to get a better Remain deal.


    it will be very hard to anyone crawling back to be credible - they said he was crap at his job, not that his ideas were bad and he couldn't win among the members, so him beating them is no reason to accept a job back, their belief he would lead them to disaster would still apply.

    Not so sure they wouldn't be credible. It is arguably the PLP's duty to warn the membership of their fears about GE chances. Having done so, if the members are determined to stick with Mr Corbyn, then the MPs may consider it their duty to try to make it work.

    Except they are claiming they already tried to make it work, and when it didn't they resigned. How many more goes are they planning to try to make it work?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223
    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    Adelaide is a mini Melbourne in many ways only bit warmer. Proper Mediterranean climate.
    Adelaide was a bit pedestrian compared to Sydney and Melbourne, and with a surprising few excessively Scottish natives. But the country a few hours north of Adelaide was the most spectacular in Australia (that I saw).
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    It reminds them of Wales?
    I've not been, although it's on my list of places to visit. I was however in Australia during their Autumn, where it was almost always hot and sunny, and recall that the dreadful weather in NZ was often news on Ozzie TV
    If the weather in NZ is so continuously awful how do they manage to make some really jolly good wines? We regularly take a very nice NZ Sauvignon Blanc at £6.50 a bottle, which of far better quality for the price than anything one can get from Europe or even Australia.

    I rather think that the original comment that New Zealand is "cold, miserable and it always rains." Is just plain bollocks from a serial moaner.
    Maybe it was on Ozzie TV because it was unusually awful? Or the Ozzie's just enjoy making NZ out to be a wet and windy place. I wasn't there long enough to tell.

    Edit/ on the wine-making, NZ is on a latitude that means the sun will be hot, when it's out. I rather suspect they have less need for irrigation than the Australian vineyards...
    New Zealand is the wettest I've ever been. Got caught in a horizontal thunderstorm and ended up sheltering behind my horse on the lee side of a cairn
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    A weekly update to my 2016 average daily tracking poll:

    Hillary 46.5 nc
    Trump 41 +0.5

    Since the start on August 1st:

    Hillary 46.5 46.5 47 47 44
    Trump 41 40.5 41 41 41

    Remarkable stability since the beginning of August.
    In the state polls Trump has slumped in Florida and losing more ground in Ohio, that is more significant than the national picture.

    Hillary's lead has clearly narrowed a little since the DNC convention and today's Monmouth Ohio poll had Hillary ahead by 4%, Romney lost Ohio by 3%, McCain by almost 5% so Trump is presently doing a little better than McCain and a little worse than Romney (of course after Romney won the first debate he took the lead, although he failed to capitalise on it)
    National polls don't mean much, it's the state polls that matter.

    The national polls are more about morale, but the state polls say how close Trump is to winning.
    And right now he is 8-10 points behind in Pennsylvania, 4-6 in Ohio and about 4-5 in Florida.

    Pennsylvania is the key, that is why Hillary is still campaigning there and throwing money there, despite being ahead by almost double digits.

    Trump needs to win all 3, Hillary needs to win only 1.
    The national polls presently have Hillary up by 5% according to RCP, ie about on a par with Ohio and Florida, I agree if Hillary wins Pennsylvania she probably wins the presidency and she is now doing slightly better there than nationally. However 1 poll yesterday had Trump ahead in the state and if the race gets tighter nationally it will get tighter there too
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025
    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    Adelaide is a mini Melbourne in many ways only bit warmer. Proper Mediterranean climate.
    Really? Adelaide was the place in Australia that most confounded my expectations in a negative way (versus Brisbane in a positive way). It's flat, desolate, down-at-heel, albeit surrounded by some amazing viticulture. Not at all like the 'European' city I'd read about.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:


    Yes but that is the French for you, if you try to speak a little German or Italian or Spanish they will generally respond in their own language and will be impressed you made the effort

    That, in itself, is a huge change from 10-20 years ago. Then, unless you spoke French, they'd sneer at you, and if you did try French, they'd speak at 200 words a minute to ensure you did not understand them.
    It is just they have found another way to express their superiority, ie they speak your language while you cannot really speak theirs, hence they are the more sophisticated and cultured people
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    IanB2 said:

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    Adelaide is a mini Melbourne in many ways only bit warmer. Proper Mediterranean climate.
    Adelaide was a bit pedestrian compared to Sydney and Melbourne, and with a surprising few excessively Scottish natives. But the country a few hours north of Adelaide was the most spectacular in Australia (that I saw).
    Yeah it's small. The centre's only about a mile square but loads of restaurants, parks etc. Very civilised from what I saw. And warm.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    An update on y0kel's favourate CIA agent:

    https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/767811204479913984

    Trump still ahead in Utah.

    https://twitter.com/ppppolls/status/767810769316700160

    And he failed to get 275 signatures in the entire state of Tennessee.

    https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/767805504794099712

    As I said, only Trump can defeat Trump (and he's doing a very good job so far).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    The South Island of New Zealand generally has a better climate than the North but while its climate is not crap it is still not as sunny as Australia and as you say Australian jobs pay more
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,223

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    Adelaide is a mini Melbourne in many ways only bit warmer. Proper Mediterranean climate.
    Really? Adelaide was the place in Australia that most confounded my expectations in a negative way (versus Brisbane in a positive way). It's flat, desolate, down-at-heel, albeit surrounded by some amazing viticulture. Not at all like the 'European' city I'd read about.
    Well it is certainly flat. I remember driving up the Clare Valley, where a lot of the best wine comes from, and there's no valley there, nor any hills.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Why do Brits want to emigrate to New Zealand ? It is cold, miserable and it always rains.

    They don't, far more Brits emigrate to Australia than New Zealand, which has a higher gdp per capita and better weather than both us and the Kiwis while still keeping the same language and most of the same culture. New Zealand is basically rural and suburban UK minus London, probably the closest nation to the UK of any on earth, so whether moving there really counts as emigration is debateable
    I lived in Christchurch for a year. Best climate of anywhere that I know. Dry and sunny all year round, with hot summer days and frosty days in winter that warm up to t shirt weather by lunchtime. It rains a few days a month, but rarely more than 2 days in a row. Nelson and Gisborne are even better. Wellington is famously windy, and Auckland is nearly subtropical. More Rain but clears quickly.

    Anyone who thinks NZ has a crap climate needs to get their head examined!

    Australia is more popular for migrants as salaries are higher than the UK, while NZ are about the same as here. Of Australian cities I really rate Adelaide for climate and general ambience.
    Adelaide is a mini Melbourne in many ways only bit warmer. Proper Mediterranean climate.
    Really? Adelaide was the place in Australia that most confounded my expectations in a negative way (versus Brisbane in a positive way). It's flat, desolate, down-at-heel, albeit surrounded by some amazing viticulture. Not at all like the 'European' city I'd read about.
    Hmm not what I saw, but I wasn't there long. Maybe I got a good day. Not been to Brisbane so can't compare. That said Sydney can hold its head high in just about any company I think. The climate, the setting.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025
    MTimT said:

    3. Modified freedom of movement (reciprocal for EU citizens in UK/UK citizens in EU)
    - grandfathering for those already in the country/EU
    - anyone with a valid job offer or intending to invest in a new business gets automatic work visa
    - other rules at discretion of EU/UK but might include fast track to residency/citizenship

    That reads like an obscurantist way of saying 'no change'. For example what would a fast track to residency mean? If you're living and working in a country, you're a resident immediately. There's no need to fast-track anything.

    For mean personally, the idea that a French person would need to jump through bureaucratic hoops to acquire the right to live in the UK or vice versa is akin to barbarism.
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