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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The LAB selectorate polls don’t always get it right – remem

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  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    As an insurance broker, I naturally decry that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2016

    IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    Or polenta.....
    Polenta is dust, or almost.
    Its what I imagine Jezza has for his dinner...given he is "anti-sugar" and so doesn't have a favourite biscuit.
    The full quote was even funnier. He said he doesn't eat biscuits because he's anti-sugar, but if forced to take one he likes shortbread.
    The guy is a total tool. On evidence displayed he was very lucky to even get 2 x E's at A-level.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

    Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

    Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.
    I know...it was a joke.
    I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.
    Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.

    On the other hand one of my gaming partners and a US citizen was a few months ago diagnosed with a cancer, surgery seems to have sorted it, but none of the follow up treatment/drugs that one would expect from the NHS, as when my wife had her cancer. His life savings are now gone and he is having to hand over a significant chunk of his pension every month, probably for the rest of his life, to settle the debt because of some small print clause in his health insurance.

    I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.
    My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

    When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.
    Thanks for that Mr. T.. I have absolutely no idea what "in-network" means. However, if it is the difference between, to use your example, a maximum bill of $2,500 and an unlimited bill then I think something is very wrong.
    Think of it like car insurers having approved repair centers. A real life example - my daughter on Obamacare needed her gall bladder removed. She had a choice of surgeons you could count on one hand. On my wife's policy the choice was almost 50.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    A bank deposit?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    weejonnie said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    As an insurance broker, I naturally decry that.
    To be honest, unless legally required, I prefer to self-insure :D
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited September 2016

    IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    Or polenta.....
    Polenta is dust, or almost.
    Its what I imagine Jezza has for his dinner...given he is "anti-sugar" and so doesn't have a favourite biscuit.
    I have a bag of polenta, left over from a recipe I did ages ago (it's actually ok provided it's a side to something extremely tasty, so that its blandness is a welcome change). The only real use I have found for it is adding a spoonful to breakmaking; it gives the bread a nice yellow colour and doesn't seem to make any other difference at all.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    You can back Owen Smith at around 50s for the contest (~ 2% chance) and lay him around 16s for the leadership (6% chance)

    Quite why he has double the chance of becoming next Labour leader through not winning the contest rather than actually winning it I don't know.

    Next year's contest and the one after that.
    Do you seriously think he'll be a candidate for those if they take place.

    Yvette Cooper didn't chuck her hat in the ring this time -

    Stephen Kinnock, Maria Eagle, Benn, Jarvis and plenty of others still to have a pop.
    A flock of turkeys or a gaggle of geese, take your pick
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited September 2016
    Following Johnson putting in a strong bid for Even Worse 2016 Presidential Candidate, we've got an impressive effort by Stein, who won't sleep in hotel beds because they might have dangerou chemicals and who thinks Clinton is more dangeous than Trump.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/jill-stein-trump-may-have-memory-problem-228346

    Why isn't TimT standing? He'd be head and shoulders above this field.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Animal_pb said:


    The health insurance sector is a little different, though. You find a few bad apples scattered around the other insurance segments, but the health insurance industry seems to be built around denial/challenge of claims as part of its core business model. Much as I think there are things to improve about the NHS, it does seem a better option (and, if you want to be coldly rational about it, you can point at the reduced personal uncertainty re: health spending encouraging higher marginal rates of consumption in the populace, ergo militating towards higher overall economic growth rates).

    Rescission, the retro-active removal of cover by health insurance companies , used to be a massive problem. When buying the insurance you'd have to fill in reams of personal info and family history - the insurance companies would have teams of people ready to scour the docs to find any error no matter how trivial and revoke the insurance if you came to claim for a chronic condition. The Obamacare changes around Rescission were an important thing.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    RobD said:

    On topic: I think selectorate is a bloody awful word.

    Sounds like something that belongs in a cough medicine - or is treated by such
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited September 2016
    rkrkrk said:

    weejonnie said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    weejonnie said:

    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

    Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
    Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

    Is this a record divergence?

    (And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

    I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?
    You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)
    The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.
    Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.
    But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

    This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.
    I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.
    It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.
    If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

    Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?
    Demographics; low unemployment; Obama approval rate over 50℅; 2015 the biggest increase in median wage ever; lowest ever uninsured rate... Take your pick?
    The 'low unemployment' is basically rather a lot of people on very low incomes who have seen their standard of living fall over the last 15 years.

    I suppose Clinton can always tell them to eat Big Macs if they can't afford proper food.

    "Since 2008, the labor participation rate has fallen from a high of 67.3% in 2000 to 62.6% today. That 62.2% represents a 38-year low, which puts Bloomberg’s claim of a 42-year-low in joblessness in perspective. The jobless number is “low” only because more people are no longer considered to be participating in the workforce."
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    I thought Faro was a card game played in gambling establishments in the Old West? The Earp brothers were expert players.
    As it "Gee, Faro's an odd name for a bank, Wells"
    It was a peculiar stage...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    Or polenta.....
    Polenta is dust, or almost.
    Its what I imagine Jezza has for his dinner...given he is "anti-sugar" and so doesn't have a favourite biscuit.
    The full quote was even funnier. He said he doesn't eat biscuits because he's anti-sugar, but if forced to take one he likes shortbread.
    The guy is a total tool. On evidence displayed he was very lucky to even get 2 x E's at A-level.
    His attitude to sugar is however probably ahead of the curve.
  • Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

    Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

    Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.
    I know...it was a joke.
    I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.
    Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.


    I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.
    My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

    When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.
    Thanks for that Mr. T.. I have absolutely no idea what "in-network" means. However, if it is the difference between, to use your example, a maximum bill of $2,500 and an unlimited bill then I think something is very wrong.
    Think of it like car insurers having approved repair centers. A real life example - my daughter on Obamacare needed her gall bladder removed. She had a choice of surgeons you could count on one hand. On my wife's policy the choice was almost 50.
    On the NHS you have a choice of 1, drawn from a pool of competent surgeons, which is all you need.

    If you want James Robertson Justice to do it personally because you think he is the best then you pay him.

    Seems logical?
  • malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    You can back Owen Smith at around 50s for the contest (~ 2% chance) and lay him around 16s for the leadership (6% chance)

    Quite why he has double the chance of becoming next Labour leader through not winning the contest rather than actually winning it I don't know.

    Next year's contest and the one after that.
    Do you seriously think he'll be a candidate for those if they take place.

    Yvette Cooper didn't chuck her hat in the ring this time -

    Stephen Kinnock, Maria Eagle, Benn, Jarvis and plenty of others still to have a pop.
    A flock of turkeys or a gaggle of geese, take your pick
    More like a suicide of lemmings
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    Or polenta.....
    Polenta is dust, or almost.
    Its what I imagine Jezza has for his dinner...given he is "anti-sugar" and so doesn't have a favourite biscuit.
    The full quote was even funnier. He said he doesn't eat biscuits because he's anti-sugar, but if forced to take one he likes shortbread.
    The guy is a total tool. On evidence displayed he was very lucky to even get 2 x E's at A-level.
    His attitude to sugar is however probably ahead of the curve.
    What as he dunks his shortbread into his fair trade hemp latte....
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016

    Following Johnson putting in a strong bid for Even Worse 2016 Presidential Candidate, we've got an impressive effort by Stein, who won't sleep in hotel beds because they might have dangerou chemicals and who thinks Clinton is more dangeous than Trump.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/jill-stein-trump-may-have-memory-problem-228346

    Why isn't TimT standing? He'd be head and shoulders above this field.

    Not a citizen, not US born. Other than that, sure.

    PS Thanks for the vote of confidence, Nick.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    MTimT said:

    Following Johnson putting in a strong bid for Even Worse 2016 Presidential Candidate, we've got an impressive effort by Stein, who won't sleep in hotel beds because they might have dangerou chemicals and who thinks Clinton is more dangeous than Trump.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/jill-stein-trump-may-have-memory-problem-228346

    Why isn't TimT standing? He'd be head and shoulders above this field.

    Not a citizen, not US born. Other than that, sure.

    PS Thanks for the vote of confidence, Nick.
    We can't instruct HM to appoint you Governor?
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    RobD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    weejonnie said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    weejonnie said:

    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

    Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
    Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

    Is this a record divergence?

    (And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

    I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?
    You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)
    The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.
    Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.
    But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

    This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.
    I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.
    It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.
    If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

    Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?
    Demographics; low unemployment; Obama approval rate over 50℅; 2015 the biggest increase in median wage ever; lowest ever uninsured rate... Take your pick?
    I thought median wages (adjusted for inflation) had been stagnant for donkeys years in the US?
    Yes, median incomes are still 2.9% below 1999 levels taking into account of inflation even with these increases.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Tim_B said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    I thought Faro was a card game played in gambling establishments in the Old West? The Earp brothers were expert players.
    As it "Gee, Faro's an odd name for a bank, Wells"
    It was a peculiar stage...
    You are probably the only person who got that, highly specific, joke...
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016
    weejonnie said:

    rkrkrk said:

    weejonnie said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    weejonnie said:

    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

    Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
    Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

    Is this a record divergence?

    (And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

    I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?
    You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)
    The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.
    Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.
    But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

    This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.
    I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.
    It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.
    If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

    Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?
    Demographics; low unemployment; Obama approval rate over 50℅; 2015 the biggest increase in median wage ever; lowest ever uninsured rate... Take your pick?
    The 'low unemployment' is basically rather a lot of people on very low incomes who have seen their standard of living fall over the last 15 years.

    I suppose Clinton can always tell them to eat Big Macs if they can't afford proper food.

    "Since 2008, the labor participation rate has fallen from a high of 67.3% in 2000 to 62.6% today. That 62.2% represents a 38-year low, which puts Bloomberg’s claim of a 42-year-low in joblessness in perspective. The jobless number is “low” only because more people are no longer considered to be participating in the workforce."
    In addition, in something like 35 out of the 50 states, median income is still lower now than it was in 2008.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2016
    Organisers of Momentum Kids, which hopes to expand across the group's 150 local branches, said it would "create a space for questioning, curious children where we can listen to them and give them a voice".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37406657

    Questioning...as in as long it doesn't question why Uncle Ken doesn't like the Jews? Or why everybody not attending is Tory Scum, even Aunty Sally a life long Labour Party member...
  • Mr. G, no option for a flange of baboons?
  • Organisers of Momentum Kids, which hopes to expand across the group's 150 local branches, said it would "create a space for questioning, curious children where we can listen to them and give them a voice".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37406657

    Questioning...as in as long it doesn't question why Uncle Ken doesn't like the Jews? Or why everybody not attending is Tory Scum, even Aunty Sally a life long Labour Party member...

    It is a deeply sinister plan. Indoctrination plain and simple.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    I thought Faro was a card game played in gambling establishments in the Old West? The Earp brothers were expert players.
    As it "Gee, Faro's an odd name for a bank, Wells"
    It was a peculiar stage...
    You are probably the only person who got that, highly specific, joke...
    Me too. I presume the stage passed through North Dakota.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

    Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

    Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.
    I know...it was a joke.
    I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.
    Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery period (no more/less than she needed), all round spiffing treatment and was given a bill in exchange for which she gave her holiday insurance details and that was that. Except weeks after she got a letter from the hospital saying the insurance company were refusing to pay up, she filed the letter in File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.


    I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.
    My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

    When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.
    Thanks for that Mr. T.. I have absolutely no idea what "in-network" means. However, if it is the difference between, to use your example, a maximum bill of $2,500 and an unlimited bill then I think something is very wrong.
    Think of it like car insurers having approved repair centers. A real life example - my daughter on Obamacare needed her gall bladder removed. She had a choice of surgeons you could count on one hand. On my wife's policy the choice was almost 50.
    On the NHS you have a choice of 1, drawn from a pool of competent surgeons, which is all you need.

    If you want James Robertson Justice to do it personally because you think he is the best then you pay him.

    Seems logical?
    I'd like to choose my own surgeon thanks.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016
    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK with vets since some bright spark invented pet health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    I doubt you will find many people who have to deal with modern vets at all keen on getting rid of the NHS.
  • Alistair said:

    Animal_pb said:


    The health insurance sector is a little different, though. You find a few bad apples scattered around the other insurance segments, but the health insurance industry seems to be built around denial/challenge of claims as part of its core business model. Much as I think there are things to improve about the NHS, it does seem a better option (and, if you want to be coldly rational about it, you can point at the reduced personal uncertainty re: health spending encouraging higher marginal rates of consumption in the populace, ergo militating towards higher overall economic growth rates).

    Rescission, the retro-active removal of cover by health insurance companies , used to be a massive problem. When buying the insurance you'd have to fill in reams of personal info and family history - the insurance companies would have teams of people ready to scour the docs to find any error no matter how trivial and revoke the insurance if you came to claim for a chronic condition. The Obamacare changes around Rescission were an important thing.
    Indeed; and it's noticeable that a number of providers have withdrawn from the 'regional marketplace' arrangements that allow access to cover.

    With respect to Tim_B's point, I'm happy that you've never had a problem with your insurance, but looking at the industry from the inside, health insurers are a different breed. "Good faith", the cornerstone of the industry, is not a concept that feels terribly safe in their hands.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    I thought Faro was a card game played in gambling establishments in the Old West? The Earp brothers were expert players.
    As it "Gee, Faro's an odd name for a bank, Wells"
    It was a peculiar stage...
    You are probably the only person who got that, highly specific, joke...
    I'm so smart I make TimT look like a frigging genius. ;)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2016
    MTimT said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    I thought Faro was a card game played in gambling establishments in the Old West? The Earp brothers were expert players.
    As it "Gee, Faro's an odd name for a bank, Wells"
    It was a peculiar stage...
    You are probably the only person who got that, highly specific, joke...
    Me too. I presume the stage passed through North Dakota.
    Except in winter. That gets difficult.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    All of this would have been avoided if Hillary had instead said that Trump's supporters were a load of 'Tory scum'.

    Then the US media spotlight would have been turned on UK Labour and Momentum and she would have sailed into the White House on the back of a Corbyn inspired mass movement sweeping across the US.

    Using 'Tory XXXX' as an insult is a theme of the left in much of the English speaking world, its still common in both Canada and Australia, and for a time it was in Texas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
  • Mr. Simon, nonsense. There's nothing to fear from giving your children to Jezbollah.

    If you're good, they'll even give them back.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Mr. G, no option for a flange of baboons?

    They are not as bright as baboons MD
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Tim_B said:


    On the NHS you have a choice of 1, drawn from a pool of competent surgeons, which is all you need.

    If you want James Robertson Justice to do it personally because you think he is the best then you pay him.

    Seems logical?

    I'd like to choose my own surgeon thanks.
    Indeed, I went to a competent surgeon for my first cataract which resulted in him dropping the lens into my eye, resulting in agony for a week (interocular pressure of 55 vs a normal 14-16) until I could get a vitrectomy. I was very pleased to be able to chose a different surgeon for the other cataract.

    I guess all the kids who went through Bristol Royal Infirmary were told they were getting competent surgeons.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:

    I'm in Peru and haven't read a thread in yonks. But I'm surprised you're not (still?) discussing this. Merkel finally admits her refugee policy might have been an error.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/19/angela-merkel-admits-mistakes-asylum-seekers-election?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    I'll say. Possibly the greatest error in postwar German politics. Inter alia, it led fairly directly to Brexit.

    I read it as like Blair "I'm listening", which results in no real change. I took it that she is really just saying the Germans failed to plan well enough, not that her policy is wrong in general.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,768

    Organisers of Momentum Kids, which hopes to expand across the group's 150 local branches, said it would "create a space for questioning, curious children where we can listen to them and give them a voice".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37406657

    Questioning...as in as long it doesn't question why Uncle Ken doesn't like the Jews? Or why everybody not attending is Tory Scum, even Aunty Sally a life long Labour Party member...

    Or why am I being asked if I've ever seen a grown man naked?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    BigRich said:

    All of this would have been avoided if Hillary had instead said that Trump's supporters were a load of 'Tory scum'.

    Then the US media spotlight would have been turned on UK Labour and Momentum and she would have sailed into the White House on the back of a Corbyn inspired mass movement sweeping across the US.

    Using 'Tory XXXX' as an insult is a theme of the left in much of the English speaking world, its still common in both Canada and Australia, and for a time it was in Texas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory

    Hard to think of a worse insult
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    MTimT said:

    weejonnie said:

    rkrkrk said:

    weejonnie said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    weejonnie said:

    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    link?

    You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)
    The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.
    Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.
    But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

    This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.
    I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.
    It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.
    If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

    Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?
    Demographics; low unemployment; Obama approval rate over 50℅; 2015 the biggest increase in median wage ever; lowest ever uninsured rate... Take your pick?
    The 'low unemployment' is basically rather a lot of people on very low incomes who have seen their standard of living fall over the last 15 years.

    I suppose Clinton can always tell them to eat Big Macs if they can't afford proper food.

    "Since 2008, the labor participation rate has fallen from a high of 67.3% in 2000 to 62.6% today. That 62.2% represents a 38-year low, which puts Bloomberg’s claim of a 42-year-low in joblessness in perspective. The jobless number is “low” only because more people are no longer considered to be participating in the workforce."
    In addition, in something like 35 out of the 50 states, median income is still lower now than it was in 2008.
    If life expectancy increases faster than the retirement age does it not stand to reason that the economically active percentage will fall? Or am I missing something?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    Efficiency and effectiveness are two different things. I don't think anyone would argue that US healthcare provision is efficient.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited September 2016
    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    The same is true in the UK - When I had private insurance I was sent for all sorts of procedures and checks (one of which actually found something unrelated but serious, by accident) which you wouldn't get under the NHS.

    Your statistic boggles mine also - how can that be true?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Tim_B said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    Charles said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    UkUncut.

    Well, that's spelt wrong for a start.

    .....spelt wrongly......
    Who is Spelt and why is (s)he wrong?
    It's like quinoa.
    Or more like faro? Thanks to the wife, we have all three in the cupboard (collecting dust).
    I thought Faro was a card game played in gambling establishments in the Old West? The Earp brothers were expert players.
    As it "Gee, Faro's an odd name for a bank, Wells"
    It was a peculiar stage...
    You are probably the only person who got that, highly specific, joke...
    I'm so smart I make TimT look like a frigging genius. ;)
    :)
  • Mr. T, I did consider posting that but I was getting work done (bit rare in the last few days, what with F1) so concentrated on that.

    It's too little, too late, though.

    Mr. G, not as vicious either. After hippos and lions, baboons are the third most dangerous creatures in Africa.
  • Mr. Simon, nonsense. There's nothing to fear from giving your children to Jezbollah.

    If you're good, they'll even give them back.

    As Soldiers of Jeremy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
  • Mr. Simon, not soldiers. More like the adoptive children of Uncle Jeremy, their philosophical father.

    Even taking the piss, it's utterly ****ing horrendous.
  • BigRich said:

    All of this would have been avoided if Hillary had instead said that Trump's supporters were a load of 'Tory scum'.

    Then the US media spotlight would have been turned on UK Labour and Momentum and she would have sailed into the White House on the back of a Corbyn inspired mass movement sweeping across the US.

    Using 'Tory XXXX' as an insult is a theme of the left in much of the English speaking world, its still common in both Canada and Australia, and for a time it was in Texas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory

    Tory Scum in the USA paint their chimneys black and white:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory#United_States?wprov=sfla1.

    The use of Tory is apparently short hand for 'the abhorrers' which is not far off deplorables
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    DavidL said:

    If life expectancy increases faster than the retirement age does it not stand to reason that the economically active percentage will fall? Or am I missing something?

    Yes. In the US, immigration keeps the rise in percentage of OAPs lower than in countries without large-scale immigration. I'd be surprised if the UK has not witnessed the same since the massive increase in immigration there over the past decade.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Two quick discussion points:

    1. Anyone buying an Android phone that's not the new OnePlus 3 is a fool*.

    2. Did Diane James really say that - alongside Churchill and Thatcher - Putin was one of her heroes?

    * OK, maybe foolish, rather than a fool.

    What is so good about the OnePlus 3? I know little about it, other than they had some viral marketing campaign.
    1. Fabulous build quality. It really feels as good as an iPhone in terms of how it's made, really premium.

    2. It's got a clean Android build, with no bloat. And it has 7mb of RAM, so it absolutely flies. It's the only Android phone I know that makes my iPhone feel slow.

    3. It's £320. That's half the price of an iPhone or a Samsung or an HTC.
    I've had a OnePlus 3 for a month and it is as sensational as people say. It is the only smartphone to have 6GB RAM which makes it amazingly fast. Everything just works instantly.

    Its Dash charging system outperforms by a big margin other fast chargers..

    Its lovely to hold and the screen is a gem. Fantastic.

    Does it hiss?
    OGH one does when it gets close to Kippers....
    Oh, that sounds a good app. Can I get one?
    You had better keep it away from the Enormo Haddock!!
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:


    On the NHS you have a choice of 1, drawn from a pool of competent surgeons, which is all you need.

    If you want James Robertson Justice to do it personally because you think he is the best then you pay him.

    Seems logical?

    I'd like to choose my own surgeon thanks.
    Indeed, I went to a competent surgeon for my first cataract which resulted in him dropping the lens into my eye, resulting in agony for a week (interocular pressure of 55 vs a normal 14-16) until I could get a vitrectomy. I was very pleased to be able to chose a different surgeon for the other cataract.

    I guess all the kids who went through Bristol Royal Infirmary were told they were getting competent surgeons.
    I suspect there is an undercurrent of "government:Good - Private:Bad" here, and heaven forfend there might be a 'profit' involved. That very concept is inconceivable to some. (an inconceivable concept - what a concept!)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,768

    Mr. Simon, nonsense. There's nothing to fear from giving your children to Jezbollah.

    If you're good, they'll even give them back.

    As Soldiers of Jeremy.
    That puts me in mind of Children of the Corn.
  • IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    The comparison should not be with the US but with the rest of the first world which genetallt have far better health services which are still free at the point of delivery.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    The same is true in the UK - When I had private insurance I was sent for all sorts of procedures and checks (one of which actually found something unrelated but serious, by accident) which you wouldn't get under the NHS.

    Your statistic boggles mine also - how can that be true?
    US healthcare is massively inefficient. Hospitals being paid by dozens upon dozens of different insurance companies (and millions of individuals who are uninsured) means vast sums of money are lost to a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

    Also Medicare/aid is banned by law from negotiating with drugs companies on medication price - they just have to take the market rate.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    There's nothing remotely 'basic' about the VA.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    MTimT said:

    DavidL said:

    If life expectancy increases faster than the retirement age does it not stand to reason that the economically active percentage will fall? Or am I missing something?

    Yes. In the US, immigration keeps the rise in percentage of OAPs lower than in countries without large-scale immigration. I'd be surprised if the UK has not witnessed the same since the massive increase in immigration there over the past decade.
    The U.K. has experienced the same - not only is almost all of our recorded growth since the 2007/8 crisis down to the working age population increase from immigration (GDP per head has risen hardly at all), but our forward outlook is more positive than those countries where the level of immigration is lower and hence their populations are aging more rapidly. I believe it is roughly true that life expectancy is rising by about twenty minutes every hour. If you were born in 1916 your chance of making it to 2016 was about 3%, for this year's children it is (currently) 50/50 that they'll see 2116.
  • Mr. Brackenbury, why? The enormo-haddock are wonderful creatures.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    The same is true in the UK - When I had private insurance I was sent for all sorts of procedures and checks (one of which actually found something unrelated but serious, by accident) which you wouldn't get under the NHS.

    Your statistic boggles mine also - how can that be true?
    US healthcare is massively inefficient. Hospitals being paid by dozens upon dozens of different insurance companies (and millions of individuals who are uninsured) means vast sums of money are lost to a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

    Also Medicare/aid is banned by law from negotiating with drugs companies on medication price - they just have to take the market rate.
    Only your second point would appear to involve public money?

    What exactly is VA?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    The same is true in the UK - When I had private insurance I was sent for all sorts of procedures and checks (one of which actually found something unrelated but serious, by accident) which you wouldn't get under the NHS.

    Your statistic boggles mine also - how can that be true?
    US healthcare is massively inefficient. Hospitals being paid by dozens upon dozens of different insurance companies (and millions of individuals who are uninsured) means vast sums of money are lost to a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

    Also Medicare/aid is banned by law from negotiating with drugs companies on medication price - they just have to take the market rate.
    Only your second point would appear to involve public money?

    What exactly is VA?
    Veterans' Affairs - medical care for former military. A cesspool of incompetence.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016
    IanB2 said:



    What exactly is VA?

    Veterans' Affairs - medical care for former military. A cesspool of incompetence. A moral blot on an entire nation.

  • Mr. Brackenbury, why? The enormo-haddock are wonderful creatures.

    Of course they are, but they might react nervously to hissing apps, no?

    You would need sophisticated underwater drone technology to find them would you not??
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    The same is true in the UK - When I had private insurance I was sent for all sorts of procedures and checks (one of which actually found something unrelated but serious, by accident) which you wouldn't get under the NHS.

    Your statistic boggles mine also - how can that be true?
    US healthcare is massively inefficient. Hospitals being paid by dozens upon dozens of different insurance companies (and millions of individuals who are uninsured) means vast sums of money are lost to a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

    Also Medicare/aid is banned by law from negotiating with drugs companies on medication price - they just have to take the market rate.
    Only your second point would appear to involve public money?

    What exactly is VA?
    The public money still has to interface with a private system that is spending a huge percentage of it's income on bureaucracy making costs for medical treatment higher than if they had a leaner administration structure.

    VA is Veterans Health Administration.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Andrew Johnston - BEEF - has earned a PGA Tour card for next season. He already has a sponsor here: Arbys.

    The PGA season starts next week, after this week's Tour Championship. If you watch on TV I'm marshaling on hole 16 all 4 days. If you don't watch I'm still on 16.
  • All of this would have been avoided if Hillary had instead said that Trump's supporters were a load of 'Tory scum'.

    Then the US media spotlight would have been turned on UK Labour and Momentum and she would have sailed into the White House on the back of a Corbyn inspired mass movement sweeping across the US.

    In the US, Tory means a British loyalist.

    So they could call much of modern anglophonic Canadians "Tory Scum".
  • Mr. Brackenbury, you don't find the enormo-haddock.

    The enormo-haddock find you.

    Mr. B, hope you have a splendid time.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,768

    Mr. Simon, not soldiers. More like the adoptive children of Uncle Jeremy, their philosophical father.

    Even taking the piss, it's utterly ****ing horrendous.

    The time will come when Father Jeremy tells them to slaughter their bourgeois-deviationist parents to create a better world.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    Correct. We pay about half as much of our GDP on healthcare in total compared with the US. Bearing in mind healthcare outcomes are measurably* worse in the US than here, it's a fantastically bad value for money system.

    Public expenditure on healthcare:
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PUBL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    Total expenditure on healthcare
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    * Due to inequality of provision. The best is very good.
  • Sean_F said:

    Organisers of Momentum Kids, which hopes to expand across the group's 150 local branches, said it would "create a space for questioning, curious children where we can listen to them and give them a voice".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37406657

    Questioning...as in as long it doesn't question why Uncle Ken doesn't like the Jews? Or why everybody not attending is Tory Scum, even Aunty Sally a life long Labour Party member...

    Or why am I being asked if I've ever seen a grown man naked?
    Joey, you ever hang around the gymnasium?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MTimT said:

    IanB2 said:



    What exactly is VA?

    Veterans' Affairs - medical care for former military. A cesspool of incompetence. A moral blot on an entire nation.


    Better or worse than BARDA?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    Well I'd say that was a somewhat cynical definition of banking from you there, Mr. C.. Bugger all to do with insurance.

    Perhaps the difference is that if I pay £x p.a. into an account at your family's bank for 19 years in order to have a fund for my cat's vet bills, should he become ill. Then your family are not going to deny me access to those funds when that moggie does become crook. Insurance companies will if they can get away with it, and ,by the cringe, don't they employ some experts to weasel their way out of what people thought were insured liabilities.

    In another sphere some years ago I worked with a chap whose house burnt down while he was abroad on holiday. Because of the department he worked in we took an interest and there was not a single solitary shred of evidence that the fire was down to a malicious cause. However, his battles with the loss adjuster and the insurance company broke him.

    Insurance companies now seem to have a rule which is not to pay out on the risks they have insured unless they really, really have to.

  • malcolmg said:

    BigRich said:

    All of this would have been avoided if Hillary had instead said that Trump's supporters were a load of 'Tory scum'.

    Then the US media spotlight would have been turned on UK Labour and Momentum and she would have sailed into the White House on the back of a Corbyn inspired mass movement sweeping across the US.

    Using 'Tory XXXX' as an insult is a theme of the left in much of the English speaking world, its still common in both Canada and Australia, and for a time it was in Texas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory

    Hard to think of a worse insult
    How about Whig - a disreputable Scottish cattle driver?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    FF43 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    Correct. We pay about half as much of our GDP on healthcare in total compared with the US. Bearing in mind healthcare outcomes are measurably* worse in the US than here, it's a fantastically bad value for money system.

    Public expenditure on healthcare:
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PUBL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    Total expenditure on healthcare
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    * Due to inequality of provision. The best is very good.
    The 'half as much' includes all the private expenditure. Nevertheless our system looks very good value looking at the public spend graph. I notice the UK's fall since 2008, which seems odd, given that GDP growth has been modest and the NHS has supposedly received extra funding, if not enough to keep pace with demand.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016
    Charles said:



    Better or worse than BARDA?

    Ah! You dislike me that much? You want to get me started on BioShield? Fortunately, my heart is in reasonable shape and I have the willpower to resist.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. Brackenbury, you don't find the enormo-haddock.

    The enormo-haddock find you.

    Mr. B, hope you have a splendid time.

    Thank you Mr Dancer - I will.
  • Mr. F, delators have already made a comeback.

    Shun the politically incorrect. Shuuuun.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Sean_F said:

    Organisers of Momentum Kids, which hopes to expand across the group's 150 local branches, said it would "create a space for questioning, curious children where we can listen to them and give them a voice".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37406657

    Questioning...as in as long it doesn't question why Uncle Ken doesn't like the Jews? Or why everybody not attending is Tory Scum, even Aunty Sally a life long Labour Party member...

    Or why am I being asked if I've ever seen a grown man naked?
    Joey, you ever hang around the gymnasium?
    or see your mother get out of the shower?
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Simon, not soldiers. More like the adoptive children of Uncle Jeremy, their philosophical father.

    Even taking the piss, it's utterly ****ing horrendous.

    The time will come when Father Jeremy tells them to slaughter their bourgeois-deviationist parents to create a better world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlik_Morozov?wprov=sfla1
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    The comparison should not be with the US but with the rest of the first world which genetallt have far better health services which are still free at the point of delivery.
    That was the case before, but from the research I have seen the UK has improved its health outcomes faster than other countries while increasing health expenditure faster as well. Basically we are spending more but getting at least some of that back in the form of relatively better treatment.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    Well I'd say that was a somewhat cynical definition of banking from you there, Mr. C.. Bugger all to do with insurance.

    Perhaps the difference is that if I pay £x p.a. into an account at your family's bank for 19 years in order to have a fund for my cat's vet bills, should he become ill. Then your family are not going to deny me access to those funds when that moggie does become crook. Insurance companies will if they can get away with it, and ,by the cringe, don't they employ some experts to weasel their way out of what people thought were insured liabilities.

    In another sphere some years ago I worked with a chap whose house burnt down while he was abroad on holiday. Because of the department he worked in we took an interest and there was not a single solitary shred of evidence that the fire was down to a malicious cause. However, his battles with the loss adjuster and the insurance company broke him.

    Insurance companies now seem to have a rule which is not to pay out on the risks they have insured unless they really, really have to.

    To quote the honourable Charles, "ahem".
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016
    Animal_pb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    Well I'd say that was a somewhat cynical definition of banking from you there, Mr. C.. Bugger all to do with insurance.

    Perhaps the difference is that if I pay £x p.a. into an account at your family's bank for 19 years in order to have a fund for my cat's vet bills, should he become ill. Then your family are not going to deny me access to those funds when that moggie does become crook. Insurance companies will if they can get away with it, and ,by the cringe, don't they employ some experts to weasel their way out of what people thought were insured liabilities.

    In another sphere some years ago I worked with a chap whose house burnt down while he was abroad on holiday. Because of the department he worked in we took an interest and there was not a single solitary shred of evidence that the fire was down to a malicious cause. However, his battles with the loss adjuster and the insurance company broke him.

    Insurance companies now seem to have a rule which is not to pay out on the risks they have insured unless they really, really have to.

    To quote the honourable Charles, "ahem".
    Have to say that is not my experience in the US with non-health insurance. On two occasions, I have had people drive into my car, and twice the basement has flooded. On each occasion, the adjuster seemed to want to add things to the claim on my behalf that I would not have thought of, and proposed very generous amounts for miscellaneous expenses associated with the claim (e.g. rental cars)
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    RobD said:

    Tim_B said:

    Owen Smith says Corbyn should have been given more time before being challenged. He didn't want to challenege, but once Eagle started it he felt he had to throw his name in. Which, if it was really the case, he could have pulled out after getting the nominations of course.

    Sounds more like he's basically trying to set the way to submit to the Corbynistas after defeat, give a reason for moderates to back Corbyn, play nice and hope for no deselections.

    To me this says a split much less likely, and the PLP has chosen the proverbial shut up as its next steps.

    The man is utterly pointless.

    He has no political skills, no presentational skills, nothing to offer.
    Angela Eagle would have been better, for all her faults.
    I am not sure on that. Her only appeal seemed to be that she was a woman. "Look at me, I have a pink logo" - that is not enough to get people to vote for you.

    Plus the disaster of her launch press conference where no serious political journalists bothered to stay to the end says all you need to know about her prospects.
    More correctly when asked by Red John on R5, because I am a working class northern gay woman...and?...I am a working class northern gay woman, so I know what it is like for real people.
    Just because she had a working class background, she doesn't have the right to claim to be working class now. No Oxford PPE graduate who ends up working for the CBI can really claim to be working class.

    Identity politics - that is what is really toxic
    What a sexist, homophobic, elitist comment...you fascist like Germaine Greer....or something like that ;-)
    Sounds like a candidate for Hillary's basket of deplorables.....
    ...a word that isn't even English btw. As in 'deplorable' is an adjective and it does not have 'basket' as its collective noun.

    Though it may do by time next OED comes out of HRC wins.
    What is the collective noun? "A PB Tory of deplorables"? :D
    Surely a flotsam of Tory scum... :wink:
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

    Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

    Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.
    I know...it was a joke.
    I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.
    Well, I for one don't understand the US Health
    My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of .
    Thanks for that Mr. T.. I have absolutely no idea what "in-network" means. However, if it is the difference between, to use your example, a maximum bill of $2,500 and an unlimited bill then I think something is very wrong.
    Think of it like car insurers having approved repair centers. A real life example - my daughter on Obamacare needed her gall bladder removed. She had a choice of surgeons you could count on one hand. On my wife's policy the choice was almost 50.
    On the NHS you have a choice of 1, drawn from a pool of competent surgeons, which is all you need.

    If you want James Robertson Justice to do it personally because you think he is the best then you pay him.

    Seems logical?
    I'd like to choose my own surgeon thanks.
    Quite apart from the difficulty in knowing who is competent in a private system where systematic audit and validated publication of results is rare, there are other issues:

    May Americans are in HMO structures where they do not get to choose a doctor, and indeed the Doctor may well be acting on perverse incentives.

    The Veterans Administration hospitals are notoriously bad (an issue in this election) attracting the worst staff (due to pay and conditions) and often little choice of these.

    County and city hospitals dealing mostly with Medicare patients can be dodgy too, particularly in less salubrious parts of the States.

    For Privately insured articulate consumers the US system can work very well indeed. An old frien of mine had an Ovarian cancer removed in May at Yale MC, within 2 weeks of diagnosis and chemo starting the next week. The NHS 2 week cancer target works well but chemo is often a bit slower and the range of drugs limited by NICE.

    Her insurance doesn't cover the chemo, but fortunately she had married well into a weathy NE family. It may break her financially, but there is little point in being solvent and dead.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    The same is true in the UK - When I had private insurance I was sent for all sorts of procedures and checks (one of which actually found something unrelated but serious, by accident) which you wouldn't get under the NHS.

    Your statistic boggles mine also - how can that be true?
    US healthcare is massively inefficient. Hospitals being paid by dozens upon dozens of different insurance companies (and millions of individuals who are uninsured) means vast sums of money are lost to a Kafkaesque bureaucracy.

    Also Medicare/aid is banned by law from negotiating with drugs companies on medication price - they just have to take the market rate.
    Only your second point would appear to involve public money?

    What exactly is VA?
    The public money still has to interface with a private system that is spending a huge percentage of it's income on bureaucracy making costs for medical treatment higher than if they had a leaner administration structure.

    VA is Veterans Health Administration.
    Mr. Alistair, can I please ask what is your actual professional relationship with the US health system?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    Correct. We pay about half as much of our GDP on healthcare in total compared with the US. Bearing in mind healthcare outcomes are measurably* worse in the US than here, it's a fantastically bad value for money system.

    Public expenditure on healthcare:
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PUBL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    Total expenditure on healthcare
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    * Due to inequality of provision. The best is very good.
    The 'half as much' includes all the private expenditure. Nevertheless our system looks very good value looking at the public spend graph. I notice the UK's fall since 2008, which seems odd, given that GDP growth has been modest and the NHS has supposedly received extra funding, if not enough to keep pace with demand.
    That's probably due to the contraction of total GDP in 2009 following the credit crunch, which meant that a steady expenditure on health suddenly became a might higher percentage of GDP. GDP has gone from trough to peak since, making it look like expenditure on health has gone down. In fact GDP grew much faster than healthcare spending.
  • IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Tim_B said:

    Alistair said:

    The other thing about the NHS is that it is geared to avoid unnecessary treatment and do the treatment it has to do as cheaply as possible because they have a fixed budget and if they do too much they go into a loss.

    In countries with private healthcare the more treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you have and the more expensive treatment or prescriptions they can persuade you to have, the more they earn so costs rise inexorably (as has happened in the UK since some bright spark invented animal health insurance).

    The result is an ever higher portion of peoples income being spent on health, and an ever rising number of health workers and rising salaries.

    Eventually the health insurance system progressively collapses (as is starting to happen now with UK pet health insurance - although you obviously cant decide sod it and put people down if they get an expensive illness).

    The stat that always boggles my mind is the US spend more public money per person on healthcare than the UK does.
    That's the VA, Medicare and Medicaid
    You mean we get all our comprehensive free care for less cost than the US puts into these basic provisions?
    Correct. We pay about half as much of our GDP on healthcare in total compared with the US. Bearing in mind healthcare outcomes are measurably* worse in the US than here, it's a fantastically bad value for money system.

    Public expenditure on healthcare:
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PUBL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    Total expenditure on healthcare
    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?locations=FR-GB-DE-CH-CA-US

    * Due to inequality of provision. The best is very good.
    The 'half as much' includes all the private expenditure. Nevertheless our system looks very good value looking at the public spend graph. I notice the UK's fall since 2008, which seems odd, given that GDP growth has been modest and the NHS has supposedly received extra funding, if not enough to keep pace with demand.
    A significant part of the fall had already happened by 2010 when it was Labour Party policy to cut NHS spending. The only party to have ever cut NHS spending being Labour of course.

    As for GDP growth being modest, GDP growth has happened every year post-2010 and was actually quite significant in 2014 which is when the biggest spending/GDP fall happened. NHS spending increased, but GDP increased faster decreasing the ratio.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    RobD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    weejonnie said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    Tim_B said:

    DavidL said:

    weejonnie said:

    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    Weird - we have two National Polls on 538

    Poll 1 : Trump +7 (LV)
    Poll 2: Clinton +9 (AV)

    Is this a record divergence?

    (And a Pennsylvania - Trump +1)

    I'm totally not seeing any of these polls on 538, could you link?
    You have to refresh the 'updates page http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/updates/ the top 3 are Monday 10.30 EDT (3.30pm)
    The Pennsylvania one is interesting because it is by a Democratic leaning pollster who has Hillary ahead by 9 nationally. If Penn does become competitive, and there is no sign of that till now, the FOP that @JackW has been going on about is distinctly possible.
    Hillary has had Obama campaigning for her in PA last week.That's a sign that PA is competitive.
    But look at the polling to date: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5964.html

    This is either a very big move or a rogue poll.
    I see what the polls say, but you campaign where you need to, where it'll make a difference, not where you're safely ahead.
    It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.
    If Obama is campaigning in PA then they obviously don't think it's safe.

    Is there any metric other than polling that would suggest this will be Hillary's year?
    Demographics; low unemployment; Obama approval rate over 50℅; 2015 the biggest increase in median wage ever; lowest ever uninsured rate... Take your pick?
    I thought median wages (adjusted for inflation) had been stagnant for donkeys years in the US?
    Worse than stagnant... until last year. (Which isn't on the chart below.)

    image
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Animal_pb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    Well I'd say that was a somewhat cynical definition of banking from you there, Mr. C.. Bugger all to do with insurance.

    Perhaps the difference is that if I pay £x p.a. into an account at your family's bank for 19 years in order to have a fund for my cat's vet bills, should he become ill. Then your family are not going to deny me access to those funds when that moggie does become crook. Insurance companies will if they can get away with it, and ,by the cringe, don't they employ some experts to weasel their way out of what people thought were insured liabilities.

    In another sphere some years ago I worked with a chap whose house burnt down while he was abroad on holiday. Because of the department he worked in we took an interest and there was not a single solitary shred of evidence that the fire was down to a malicious cause. However, his battles with the loss adjuster and the insurance company broke him.

    Insurance companies now seem to have a rule which is not to pay out on the risks they have insured unless they really, really have to.

    To quote the honourable Charles, "ahem".
    Well if you pay less into an insurance company pot (cheap premiums! Cheapest car insurance! Save Money on your insurance! We guarantee you can't buy cheaper!) then there is less available to pay out claims. That is economics 101 but no-one under 35 has yet grasped it - they want a Rolls-Royce policy at Model-T Ford prices.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2016
    Oh god what have I started with my quip about David of NJ trip to the ER....

    AV, AV, PR, AV, PR^2, Latvian Homophobes, Waffen SS, Cameron spotted in Morrisons...anything something...distract, distract...
  • Animal_pb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.

    *ahem*
    Sorry, Mr. Charles. I didn't know you or your family were in the insurance business.
    What else would you call lending money to people who don't need it?
    Well I'd say that was a somewhat cynical definition of banking from you there, Mr. C.. Bugger all to do with insurance.

    Perhaps the difference is that if I pay £x p.a. into an account at your family's bank for 19 years in order to have a fund for my cat's vet bills, should he become ill. Then your family are not going to deny me access to those funds when that moggie does become crook. Insurance companies will if they can get away with it, and ,by the cringe, don't they employ some experts to weasel their way out of what people thought were insured liabilities.

    In another sphere some years ago I worked with a chap whose house burnt down while he was abroad on holiday. Because of the department he worked in we took an interest and there was not a single solitary shred of evidence that the fire was down to a malicious cause. However, his battles with the loss adjuster and the insurance company broke him.

    Insurance companies now seem to have a rule which is not to pay out on the risks they have insured unless they really, really have to.

    To quote the honourable Charles, "ahem".
    I will go "ahem" a bit here. I know the insurance world does not have always have a great reputation, but retail insurance is heavily regulated in the UK and there is a presumption of cover unless the Insurer can show grounds for exclusion or misrepresentation.

    I would be very interested to hear the details of your friend's insurance policy and his loss. It is not the case that a claim is simply turned down without reason.

    My own business is connected to the negotiation adjustment and settlement of claims in the Lloyd's and London Market.

    However, it really is useful for people to read their policy to see what is covered and what is not. If you are transferring risk to an insurance company, it is well to know what risks you are transferring and what may be excluded.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Oh god what have I started with my quip about David of NJ trip to the ER....

    AV, AV, PR, AV, PR^2, Latvian Homophobes, Waffen SS, Cameron spotted in Morrisons...anything something...distract, distract...

    Try grammar schools. That usually works ;-)
  • Oh god what have I started with my quip about David of NJ trip to the ER....

    AV, AV, PR, AV, PR^2, Latvian Homophobes, Waffen SS, Cameron spotted in Morrisons...anything something...distract, distract...

    Try grammar schools. That usually works ;-)
    Or a nice soothing AV thread?
  • Bleah, I should have read that more carefully. The dangers of posting sober...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    For those interested in the financial squueze on the NHS the graphs in this short video made a month ago are rather good:

    https://youtu.be/nsCDAp_aFEg

  • Mr Rahami's brothers once fought with an officer who had come to shut down the restaurant. The brother allegedly fled to his native Afghanistan before the case could be prosecuted.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37410115
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2016
    SeanT said:

    I'm in Peru and haven't read a thread in yonks. But I'm surprised you're not (still?) discussing this. Merkel finally admits her refugee policy might have been an error.


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/19/angela-merkel-admits-mistakes-asylum-seekers-election?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    I'll say. Possibly the greatest error in postwar German politics. Inter alia, it led fairly directly to Brexit.

    It was more Blair's refusal to agree to a break in migration of Eastern Europeans to the UK in 2004 (unlike most other EU nations) which led to Brexit. Merkel's policy made it even more likely but was not the prime cause. However she is now seeing a significant move of CDU voters to the AfD too
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    Suspect been shot and injured and being taken away in an ambulance. Police also been shot.

    Hope his medical insurance is up to date....

    Doesn't matter - if you present at ER they have to treat you regardless of insurance. One reason the ER is such an expense to hospitals.
    I know...it was a joke.
    I think a large percentage of British public think that they wouldn't see you at ER without them first swiping your credit card.
    Well, I for one don't understand the US Health system. A friend of mine, a Brit, was taken ill was on holiday in Texas. She was whipped into the local A&E, diagnosed had surgery, a short recovery periodsnip File 13 and never heard another word from anyone.


    I'll moan about the NHS with the best of them and, God knows, I have had good reason to do so, but I think I prefer it to being in the hands of the modern insurance industry. Bankers are noble citizens compared to the thieving toerags who run insurance companies.
    My guess is that your gaming friend received his treatment 'out of network'. When you do that, your co-pay is increased (depends on the policy) and there is no absolute cap on your responsibilities.

    When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, we made sure all her providers were 'in-network' so her absolute cap is $2500. Which is just as well, as the chemo drugs came to around $20,000 per session.
    Thanks for that Mr. T.. I have absolutely no idea what "in-network" means. However, if it is the difference between, to use your example, a maximum bill of $2,500 and an unlimited bill then I think something is very wrong.
    Think of it like car insurers having approved repair centers. A real life example - my daughter on Obamacare needed her gall bladder removed. She had a choice of surgeons you could count on one hand. On my wife's policy the choice was almost 50.
    On the NHS you have a choice of 1, drawn from a pool of competent surgeons, which is all you need.

    If you want James Robertson Justice to do it personally because you think he is the best then you pay him.

    Seems logical?
    I'd like to choose my own surgeon thanks.
    If you are mates with an anaesthetist at the hospital who is mates with the international superstar surgeon for the operation you want done, it can happen that you get sort of unofficially reallocated to that surgeon's NHS list. Allegedly.
  • “There is literally no excuse for what is going on there,” she said. “It’s shameful.

    “And I’m very proud to be British, and think we do great things, and it is worth remembering that we are one of the biggest donor countries.

    “But because of our inaction when it comes to 600 unaccompanied minors in Calais, it makes me ashamed to be British.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/19/it-makes-me-ashamed-to-be-british-carey-mulligan-slams-governmen/

    No words of criticism for the French?
  • On leaving the EU, stunning idiocy:
    https://twitter.com/damiengwalter/status/777511991124647936

    I assume that includes the UK's economy (between 2.5 and 3 trillion euros). And does seem to neglect that America, and maybe China are bigger, even with the UK included.

    I think most people on both sides are entirely reasonable, but I suspect the above line of thinking has many adherents in the Lords.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Bristol Labour Party having some local difficulties as 3 councillors are now suspended by The NEC.
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