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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Just how strong is Momentum? Don Brind takes a sceptical lo

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  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    JonathanD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JonathanD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Note to Farron: by definition, you can't prevent an inevitability.

    Also, the 'democrat' part of the party's name seems rather contrary to his views of preventing the UK leaving the EU.

    And his view on a second referendum, as many of us have said, makes no sense whatsoever.

    Once May triggers Art 50, the facts will have changed mind as a rejection of a deal puts us into WTO territory - or we rejoin.
    Is there not the option of just withdrawing Article 50 notification and staying in the EU?

    Utterly humiliating for the UK but still...

    Art 50 is a "no return" 2 year corridor so far as I understand, and given the EU's negotiators they have I don't think anything substantive should be left unnegotiated before Art 50 is triggered.

    There does seem to be some debate as to its reversibility

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/article-50-trigger-brexit-eu-revoke-economic-plan-legal-trade-agreement-a7231446.html

    I assume that this is the basis of Farron's position, a sort of 'in theory the people want to leave the EU but when presented with the reality they don't'
    I'm sure the thinking is that if you only start with 52% consent for any form of exit, it will be difficult to come up with any actual plan keeping 50% on board, once the empty promises are replaced with hard negotiation.

    The two difficulties are that many remain voters don't want to go through such a divisive referendum, feel the vote has to be respected and don't feel that strongly anyway, and the doubt over whether Article 50 is reversible.

    However in terms of visibility and distinctiveness for the Lib Dems it does make sense as an interim position, until there's more clarity.

    Were we to leave, and then rejoining meant Euro, Schengen and no rebate - I imagine that even the Lib Dems would baulk at that point, and move on.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784

    619 said:

    Alistair said:


    Also, he has been given some splendid ammunition. 'Secretary Clinton thinks millions of viewers watching this debate are deplorable.'

    "Mr Trump, given that you think Obama was born in the USA would you take this opportunity to tell the 60% of your supporters that think he wasn't that they are wrong?"
    "Yes".
    'Mr Trump, when did you decide Obama was born in the USA? and do you think you owe Obama and the country an apology for doubting his birthplace for all these years?'
    C'mon, he's no idiot.
    BIG assumption there...

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Well we ask the people every 5 years what government they want :)

    And I can see May delay triggering Art 50 ... indefinitely.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:

    MikeL said:

    What are views on Ashdown's suggestion there will have to be a GE as May won't be able to get Brexit through Commons - as "hardline" Eurosceptics will vote against what they see as too "soft" a deal.

    I have two thoughts:

    1) Surely the deal won't go to a vote in the Commons until the end of the process - ie deal can't go to a vote until deal is completely negotiated. Which would be early 2019 (ie just under two years after Article 50, assuming that's done say April 2017).

    2) Surely deal would likely pass Commons given support of DUP / UUP / Carswell and almost certainly about 10 Lab MPs (ie Stuart, Howey, Field etc would vote for it). That would mean about 30 Con rebels would be required to defeat it.

    Would 30 Con MPs really vote against - in the knowledge that if the vote was lost we might well end up not leaving the EU at all?

    The Brexit deal is unlikely to be "soft", so Tory Eurosceptics won't have anything to object to. A soft Brexit depends on both sides being happy to fudge, when I don't think either side is.
    The only softness about a Brexit deal will be the degree of free movement of people. The degree of free movement of people will depend on the EU's pragmatism. Of course rhetoric to date has suggested that they might not be pragmatic at all but that's a different matter to the cold hard facts presented to them by the likes of DD (with Tezza's hand shoved up his a**e of course).

    I would love to know what DD thinks is appropriate if it's not visas and an end to single market membership.
    Suppose that a deal is done that the 28 governments can agree to but it is then voted down in the EU parliament. What happens then? I'd assume that it would be back to WTO rules and all the negotiation effort would be for nothing.
    Of course. But there is an illogicality there analagous to the notion that Dave's deal would be struck down.

    You are saying that Tezza would negotiate with the EU27, reach an agreement, and then the EU Parliament would vote it down?

    Theoretically possible but bonkers and I can't see it happening.

    Perhaps we should ask Mr Sarah Vine his thoughts.
    More than theoretically possible. Poland thought they had agreed an opt-out on something - I forget what it was now - in order to pass the Lisbon Treaty, only for it to be struck down by the Parliament later. Nevertheless a nuclear option in this case, as they will have to pass or reject the agreement in its entirety.
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    Mr. Pulpstar, a referendum and an election are not the same thing, however.

    I do wonder what happens if we get to mid-2018 and May hasn't triggered Article 50. Could be a challenge to her.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814
    dr_spyn said:

    Poor old Tim Farron in the headlines for 2 minutes then Angelina Jolie files for divorce.

    Did William Hague get her to time her announcement to put the mockers on Tim?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    619 said:



    Trump needs to come across as presidential

    Does he? Seriously, this is the country that elected Jesse Ventura as Governor.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited September 2016
    619 said:

    Alistair said:


    Also, he has been given some splendid ammunition. 'Secretary Clinton thinks millions of viewers watching this debate are deplorable.'

    "Mr Trump, given that you think Obama was born in the USA would you take this opportunity to tell the 60% of your supporters that think he wasn't that they are wrong?"
    "Yes".
    'Mr Trump, when did you decide Obama was born in the USA? and do you think you owe Obama and the country an apology for doubting his birthplace for all these years?'
    "When he revealed his birth certificate. I believe I was right to ensure that the constitution was upheld."
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2016
    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    The last NC poll from that pollster (April) was adjusted by 538 from Clinton+6 to a tie

    Nate rates them B+ though.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:

    MikeL said:

    What are views on Ashdown's suggestion there will have to be a GE as May won't be able to get Brexit through Commons - as "hardline" Eurosceptics will vote against what they see as too "soft" a deal.

    I have two thoughts:

    1) Surely the deal won't go to a vote in the Commons until the end of the process - ie deal can't go to a vote until deal is completely negotiated. Which would be early 2019 (ie just under two years after Article 50, assuming that's done say April 2017).

    2) Surely deal would likely pass Commons given support of DUP / UUP / Carswell and almost certainly about 10 Lab MPs (ie Stuart, Howey, Field etc would vote for it). That would mean about 30 Con rebels would be required to defeat it.

    Would 30 Con MPs really vote against - in the knowledge that if the vote was lost we might well end up not leaving the EU at all?

    The Brexit deal is unlikely to be "soft", so Tory Eurosceptics won't have anything to object to. A soft Brexit depends on both sides being happy to fudge, when I don't think either side is.
    The only softness about a Brexit deal will be the degree of free movement of people. The degree of free movement of people will depend on the EU's pragmatism. Of course rhetoric to date has suggested that they might not be pragmatic at all but that's a different matter to the cold hard facts presented to them by the likes of DD (with Tezza's hand shoved up his a**e of course).

    I would love to know what DD thinks is appropriate if it's not visas and an end to single market membership.
    Suppose that a deal is done that the 28 governments can agree to but it is then voted down in the EU parliament. What happens then? I'd assume that it would be back to WTO rules and all the negotiation effort would be for nothing.
    Of course. But there is an illogicality there analagous to the notion that Dave's deal would be struck down.

    You are saying that Tezza would negotiate with the EU27, reach an agreement, and then the EU Parliament would vote it down?

    Theoretically possible but bonkers and I can't see it happening.

    Perhaps we should ask Mr Sarah Vine his thoughts.
    More than theoretically possible. Poland thought they had agreed an opt-out on something - I forget what it was now - in order to pass the Lisbon Treaty, only for it to be struck down by the Parliament later. Nevertheless a nuclear option in this case, as they will have to pass or reject the agreement in its entirety.
    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision
  • Options

    Incidentally, a thought on the vagueness and poor wording that Mr. Nabavi and others have raised: this may well be entirely intentional.

    Consider how much the EU likes fudge. You can't fudge when clarity reigns supreme. You need uncertainty.

    It's not fudge more probably do with treaties etc have been drafted in different languages then codified/translated into a different language
    This has made me want fudge. Thanks a lot.
    Sugar free I hope?
    Unfortunately there is no really good substitute for sugar.

    I have to agree with Jezza on this one; it's a curse. I even sort of see where he's coming from on his 'no biscuits, yes thanks I'll have a shortbread'. I don't keep biscuits or cakes in the house, but I'm damned if I can refuse them when they're sitting infront of me.

    @Morris_Dancer - quite right! I'm a fan of its crumbly Scottish cousin 'tablet' too. About the worst thing for you to eat though.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
    Pollster Start Date End Date
    Ipsos/Reuters 26/08/2016 15/09/2016
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    weejonnie said:

    We have another Nevada poll - Trump +1 and a New York poll Clinton +n where n is a large number. No surprises with either.

    You have to wonder why they bother wasting their time with New York when some battleground states like Wisconsin haven't been polled for 3 weeks
    Yes – it really is a complete waste of time and money.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    This must have been very stressful for the family, but the Home Office does seem to have bent over backwards at every turn, despite the couple taking the piss with the ECHR petition:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37421599
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    Mr. 1983, never tried this 'tablet' to which you refer.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814
    edited September 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Are these "State" polls as unreliable as marginals polls here?
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
    Pollster Start Date End Date
    Ipsos/Reuters 26/08/2016 15/09/2016
    What do you make of the ipsos/reuters state polls?

    They have a very odd projection for Vermont ;

    http://www.reuters.com/statesofthenation/
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    619 said:

    Alistair said:


    Also, he has been given some splendid ammunition. 'Secretary Clinton thinks millions of viewers watching this debate are deplorable.'

    "Mr Trump, given that you think Obama was born in the USA would you take this opportunity to tell the 60% of your supporters that think he wasn't that they are wrong?"
    "Yes".
    'Mr Trump, when did you decide Obama was born in the USA? and do you think you owe Obama and the country an apology for doubting his birthplace for all these years?'
    "When he revealed his birth certificate. I believe I was right to ensure that the constitution was upheld."
    Trump officially accepted it just a couple of weeks back. Whether anyone still cares ...
  • Options

    Incidentally, a thought on the vagueness and poor wording that Mr. Nabavi and others have raised: this may well be entirely intentional.

    Consider how much the EU likes fudge. You can't fudge when clarity reigns supreme. You need uncertainty.

    It's not fudge more probably do with treaties etc have been drafted in different languages then codified/translated into a different language
    English is the best language in the world!

    :innocent:
    it could do with a decent, logical writing system though
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
    Pollster Start Date End Date
    Ipsos/Reuters 26/08/2016 15/09/2016
    What do you make of the ipsos/reuters state polls?

    They have a very odd projection for Vermont ;

    http://www.reuters.com/statesofthenation/

    Yes I think the intern has been left alone with the spreadsheet in that particular case...
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016
    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Are these "State" polls has unreliable as marginals polls here?
    Is B+ on 538

    Average has Clinton 0.8% behind trump in this state
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
    Pollster Start Date End Date
    Ipsos/Reuters 26/08/2016 15/09/2016
    What do you make of the ipsos/reuters state polls?

    They have a very odd projection for Vermont ;

    http://www.reuters.com/statesofthenation/
    Does look a bit odd.

    I'm not one for cherry picking polls mind, and I think the debates are going to be crucial.

    No I don't think VT is going red :)
  • Options

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Brexiteers go on about 'the will of the people' and 'the people have spoken'.
    It was actually quite close you know.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    A few more news outlets picking up on the Trump foundation story.

    This one could be really bad for him if it goes to the TV news. He is paying his company's legal bills from charity donations!
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
    Pollster Start Date End Date
    Ipsos/Reuters 26/08/2016 15/09/2016
    Nearly a week old. I'd expect MI to end up safely in the blue column.

    Trump's route is as follows

    NC, CO, NV, FL, OH

    The joker in that particular pack is CO. Its high Hispanic population and liberalising demographic may do for him there. But it is nevertheless a viable route to victory that one could envisage happening.

    Rumours that both campaigns have pulled their funding as they don't believe it is in play bode badly for him however.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Incidentally, a thought on the vagueness and poor wording that Mr. Nabavi and others have raised: this may well be entirely intentional.

    Consider how much the EU likes fudge. You can't fudge when clarity reigns supreme. You need uncertainty.

    It's not fudge more probably do with treaties etc have been drafted in different languages then codified/translated into a different language
    English is the best language in the world!

    :innocent:
    it could do with a decent, logical writing system though
    Fudge is essential in international treaty negotiations. It is called 'constructive ambiguity'
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    MTimT said:

    Incidentally, a thought on the vagueness and poor wording that Mr. Nabavi and others have raised: this may well be entirely intentional.

    Consider how much the EU likes fudge. You can't fudge when clarity reigns supreme. You need uncertainty.

    It's not fudge more probably do with treaties etc have been drafted in different languages then codified/translated into a different language
    English is the best language in the world!

    :innocent:
    it could do with a decent, logical writing system though
    Fudge is essential in international treaty negotiations. It is called 'constructive ambiguity'
    From sugar to fudge.

    Is it confectionary day on PB?
  • Options

    Mr. 1983, never tried this 'tablet' to which you refer.

    It's a dry, very crumbly slab (hence the name) of basically fudge that breaks off and gives you a huge sugar hit when it melts in the mouth. Often eaten with post-dinner coffee up here. It's good - how could it not be, it's sugar held together with a bit of butter.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Jobabob said:

    MTimT said:

    Incidentally, a thought on the vagueness and poor wording that Mr. Nabavi and others have raised: this may well be entirely intentional.

    Consider how much the EU likes fudge. You can't fudge when clarity reigns supreme. You need uncertainty.

    It's not fudge more probably do with treaties etc have been drafted in different languages then codified/translated into a different language
    English is the best language in the world!

    :innocent:
    it could do with a decent, logical writing system though
    Fudge is essential in international treaty negotiations. It is called 'constructive ambiguity'
    From sugar to fudge.

    Is it confectionary day on PB?
    Oh god! Now we're going to have requests for sugar-free fudge.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Brexiteers go on about 'the will of the people' and 'the people have spoken'.
    It was actually quite close you know.
    Yes indeed, and that has been long forgotten by the eurosceptics (many of whom were saying prior to the vote that the issue wouldn't be settled were the vote 48-52 the other way).
  • Options
    An interesting fact I wasn't aware of is that Presidents are not bound by the same conflict-of-interest statute that restricts Cabinet officers and White House staff so apparently Trump could carry on as CEO of the Trump Organisation even from the Oval Office.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term
  • Options
    Off-topic:

    I was just making the little 'un some rice, when I noticed on the instructions "...Tear open, tip out and fluff with a fork."

    Now, I may be an innocent, but surely fluffing with a fork would not quite have the desired effect?

    And to think my son nearly read it. I hope in this post-Brexit world such smut would be removed from our shelves. Won't anyone think of the children?
  • Options
    Jobabob said:

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Brexiteers go on about 'the will of the people' and 'the people have spoken'.
    It was actually quite close you know.
    Yes indeed, and that has been long forgotten by the eurosceptics (many of whom were saying prior to the vote that the issue wouldn't be settled were the vote 48-52 the other way).
    And the fact that 2 fifths of Scots voted to Leave has been totally obliterated by the Remoaners' rearguard spoiling campaign. That's politics.
  • Options

    An interesting fact I wasn't aware of is that Presidents are not bound by the same conflict-of-interest statute that restricts Cabinet officers and White House staff so apparently Trump could carry on as CEO of the Trump Organisation even from the Oval Office.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term

    Presumably the White House will be renamed the Trump House.
  • Options

    An interesting fact I wasn't aware of is that Presidents are not bound by the same conflict-of-interest statute that restricts Cabinet officers and White House staff so apparently Trump could carry on as CEO of the Trump Organisation even from the Oval Office.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term

    Presumably the White House will be renamed the Trump House.
    Trumpsylvania Avn.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    More racist crap from Trump Jr, who seems 10 times worse than his dad




    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr)
    September 20, 2016

    Europe’s Rape Epidemic: Western Women Will Be Sacrificed At The Altar Of Mass Migration https://t.co/BkguApQqvQ via @BreitbartNews
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    619 said:

    More racist crap from Trump Jr, who seems 10 times worse than his dad




    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr)
    September 20, 2016

    Europe’s Rape Epidemic: Western Women Will Be Sacrificed At The Altar Of Mass Migration https://t.co/BkguApQqvQ via @BreitbartNews

    Ask the women of Cologne that question. Try and get a few facts into your rants - they do help - honestly!
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    john_zims said:

    @Morris_Dancer 'Also, why does the second referendum result matter but the first one doesn't? '
    Beacuse a few days after the referendum Farron addressed 70 people in a Church Hall in Preston who had voted Leave, but according to Farron some were having second thoughts.
    A novel way to develop policy and a massive threat to polling companies.

    Ho, ho, Mr Zims! You are a hoot!
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    An interesting fact I wasn't aware of is that Presidents are not bound by the same conflict-of-interest statute that restricts Cabinet officers and White House staff so apparently Trump could carry on as CEO of the Trump Organisation even from the Oval Office.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term

    Presumably the White House will be renamed the Trump House.
    Trumpsylvania Avn.
    And Washington DC to be renamed 'Trumpton'?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,240
    TonyE said:

    An interesting fact I wasn't aware of is that Presidents are not bound by the same conflict-of-interest statute that restricts Cabinet officers and White House staff so apparently Trump could carry on as CEO of the Trump Organisation even from the Oval Office.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term

    Presumably the White House will be renamed the Trump House.
    Trumpsylvania Avn.
    And Washington DC to be renamed 'Trumpton'?
    The staff in the West Wing could be Pugh, Hugh, Charley McGrew....
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FF43 said:

    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
    You obviously missed the announcement from Honda a couple of days ago.
  • Options
    Jobabob said:
    Is that genuine?
    "So, Donald Trump used other people’s money to pay off fines via a charitable donation from his foundation. This is the kind of thing you would not do if you were serious about running for president and thus knew that perhaps your financial records would face scrutiny, as all candidate’s do — well, except for Donald Trump who has refused to release his tax returns."

    "Trump also used the money to buy yet another portrait of himself (seriously?) and to buy advertisements for his hotels. If you had given money to the Trump Foundation for charity, you might be a little ticked off to see Trump using it to buy himself out of lawsuits, buy a portrait of himself and buy ads for his for-profit business."

    That would sink a normal candidate, but maybe not post-truth Trump.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784

    Jobabob said:
    Is that genuine?
    "So, Donald Trump used other people’s money to pay off fines via a charitable donation from his foundation. This is the kind of thing you would not do if you were serious about running for president and thus knew that perhaps your financial records would face scrutiny, as all candidate’s do — well, except for Donald Trump who has refused to release his tax returns."

    "Trump also used the money to buy yet another portrait of himself (seriously?) and to buy advertisements for his hotels. If you had given money to the Trump Foundation for charity, you might be a little ticked off to see Trump using it to buy himself out of lawsuits, buy a portrait of himself and buy ads for his for-profit business."

    That would sink a normal candidate, but maybe not post-truth Trump.
    Well the lawsuits paying thing is illegal so more than stupidity from Crooked Donald
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    FF43 said:

    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
    You're far too pessimistic. The EEA agreement is incredibly complex - any trade deal will have to be based on it for it to succeed in the two year timetable. Almost certainly that will mean EFTA memberhip.

    The first priority for the UK should be to make sure that we bring a good deal to EFTA so that we can rejoin seamlessly.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    FF43 said:

    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
    You obviously missed the announcement from Honda a couple of days ago.
    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,427

    Mr. 1983, never tried this 'tablet' to which you refer.

    It's a dry, very crumbly slab (hence the name) of basically fudge that breaks off and gives you a huge sugar hit when it melts in the mouth. Often eaten with post-dinner coffee up here. It's good - how could it not be, it's sugar held together with a bit of butter.
    Oh, tablet is a marvellous confection. Knocks fudge into a cocked hat. Jeremy Corbyn would heartily disapprove (given his reply to the biscuit question).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,240
    This is a truly surreal time in the USA. Clinton should clearly be in jail for her dishonesty and cavalier disregard of national security and now it turns out that Trump should be too. Have there ever been 2 more disreputable candidates for the White House in the same election?

    Nixon must be looking down (or possibly up) and lamenting the collapse of standards. Do you want a crook in the Whitehouse? Well, which one?

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    edited September 2016
    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
    You obviously missed the announcement from Honda a couple of days ago.
    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.
    Agree. Actually ban him; we need a safe space for Brexiteers.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
    You're far too pessimistic. The EEA agreement is incredibly complex - any trade deal will have to be based on it for it to succeed in the two year timetable. Almost certainly that will mean EFTA memberhip.

    The first priority for the UK should be to make sure that we bring a good deal to EFTA so that we can rejoin seamlessly.
    Then we are back to fudge. ie the Brexit vote was a marker. We aim to be out, but we are going to carry on more or less as at present for the time being. Both parties will need to join in the pretence. I can see the benefit of it, but I don't think anyone is in the frame of mind for it.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Afternoon all :)

    Not being able to watch Tim Farron's speech live as I have a job and a life, I've just read it (text is on libdemvoice). Good barnstorming traditional Farron stuff - indeed, some of it recycled Farron stuff but not bad nevertheless.

    On Europe, the commitment to a referendum on the A50 negotiation outcome remains but as I said this morning, I have serious doubts about this. At no point has Farron said what would happen if the public reject the A50 negotiation outcome - we would be in wholly uncharted waters.

    My view remains the A50 negotiations have to be conducted and the post-EU economic future made a lot clearer. In 2019, we formally exit the EU and the following year we have a General Election where those opposed to the A50 plan can state their alternatives whether it be a re-negotiation to change either Single Market or Freedom of Movement.

    Otherwise, we know the rest - success will be measured in terms of local Government seats gained or re-gained just as it was after 1970 and the activist base built or re-built.

    Not a game-changing speech by any means but a competent second speech after a tumultuous year. I do think the 2017 County Council elections will be significant - will we see an LD recovery and will that mask a Conservative advance on the back of a UKIP decline ?
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @PClipp

    'Ho, ho, Mr Zims! You are a hoot!'

    You obviously missed the opening part of his rant.

  • Options
    619 said:

    More racist crap from Trump Jr, who seems 10 times worse than his dad




    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr)
    September 20, 2016

    Europe’s Rape Epidemic: Western Women Will Be Sacrificed At The Altar Of Mass Migration https://t.co/BkguApQqvQ via @BreitbartNews

    Aren't the rapists the real racists?
  • Options
    Has the similarity between Guy Verhofstat and the Emperor Palpatine been pointed out?
  • Options

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Brexiteers go on about 'the will of the people' and 'the people have spoken'.
    It was actually quite close you know.
    Not as close as Quebec, 1995.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_referendum,_1995
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,240

    Has the similarity between Guy Verhofstat and the Emperor Palpatine been pointed out?

    Yes.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited September 2016
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Not being able to watch Tim Farron's speech live as I have a job and a life, I've just read it (text is on libdemvoice). Good barnstorming traditional Farron stuff - indeed, some of it recycled Farron stuff but not bad nevertheless.

    On Europe, the commitment to a referendum on the A50 negotiation outcome remains but as I said this morning, I have serious doubts about this. At no point has Farron said what would happen if the public reject the A50 negotiation outcome - we would be in wholly uncharted waters.

    My view remains the A50 negotiations have to be conducted and the post-EU economic future made a lot clearer. In 2019, we formally exit the EU and the following year we have a General Election where those opposed to the A50 plan can state their alternatives whether it be a re-negotiation to change either Single Market or Freedom of Movement.

    Otherwise, we know the rest - success will be measured in terms of local Government seats gained or re-gained just as it was after 1970 and the activist base built or re-built.

    Not a game-changing speech by any means but a competent second speech after a tumultuous year. I do think the 2017 County Council elections will be significant - will we see an LD recovery and will that mask a Conservative advance on the back of a UKIP decline ?

    The Tories are overdue a bad election. It might come in 2017. When it comes there will be serious losses and an opportunity for the Lib Dems.
  • Options
    I suspect there's a Trump Mafia story going to break between now and November.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    FF43 said:

    TonyE said:

    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:



    PS More likely Guy Verhofstadt, the Parliament's link man on Brexit will have squared any potential parliamentary objections before the Council makes its final decision

    Depends what type of negotiator he is. He may feel his hand is strongest if he only raises his 'issues' once an overall agreement has been reached subject to EP assent. Indeed, negotiation theory in one-off negotiations would suggest that as the route to take. But of course, as in all international negotiations, there is no such thing as a one-off negotiation. Bad faith in these negotiations will impact future relations.
    There's an internal dynamic as well. Verhofstadt may reckon he has most leverage with the EU negotiators by getting his favoured objectives in upfront, with a threat of vetoing the whole shebang if he doesn't get what he wants.

    As I said down thread, I think the Exit Agreement will include the uncontroversial stuff that everyone wants - a trade deal on machinery,chemicals and possibly agriculture and maybe an agreement to maintain the European Arrest Warrant. The main negotiations will be held over until later.

    They will want to hammer out a common WTO approach. British farmers stand to be clobbered by the potential removal of tariff quotas, while the UK is a very important market for EU agricultural exports that it will be reluctant to share with third countries.
    I think you'll find a lot of fightback on the EAW from Brits who want a more nuanced extradition policy put back in place - once which does not assume equivalence in terms of justice systems across the EU just because the nation in question is signed up to the charter of fundamental rights.
    Then it will be parked. Leaving just a trade deal on machinery and chemicals, which favours the EU side more than us, but it's the price we pay to keep Nissan etc on these shores for a bit longer.
    You obviously missed the announcement from Honda a couple of days ago.
    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.
    Agree. Actually ban him; we need a safe space for Brexiteers.
    Even you aren't as bad, TOPPING!
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    dr_spyn said:

    Farron mentions Newport, Sunderland & Preston as being left behind...all areas which didn't back his pro EU stance.

    Yeah and he will claim they voted like this because they were left behind and they wouldn't have voted Leave otherwise.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    I suspect there's a Trump Mafia story going to break between now and November.

    I see, after a quick gurgle, what you mean. I don't think it will make much difference though.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Well we ask the people every 5 years what government they want :)

    And I can see May delay triggering Art 50 ... indefinitely.
    My view is that May wants to delay Art 50 until the centre of political gravity within the EU comes her way on freedom of movement.

    She can then do a more balanced free trade / migration deal for the UK.

    Personally I think she'll try to hold off until Oct/Nov 2017, once many EU states national elections have subjected them to the same pressures she is under.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    This is a truly surreal time in the USA. Clinton should clearly be in jail for her dishonesty and cavalier disregard of national security and now it turns out that Trump should be too. Have there ever been 2 more disreputable candidates for the White House in the same election?

    Nixon must be looking down (or possibly up) and lamenting the collapse of standards. Do you want a crook in the Whitehouse? Well, which one?

    Nixon is probably taking credit for trailblazing.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    619 said:

    A few more news outlets picking up on the Trump foundation story.

    This one could be really bad for him if it goes to the TV news. He is paying his company's legal bills from charity donations!

    And, you know, donating to states attorneys who then declined to investigate Trump University.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,240
    edited September 2016
    Completely off topic but this is the sort of thing that drives me nuts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37418186

    The social worker who was supposed to be helping Liam Fee has been struck off. She was also accused of neglecting 15 other children in her supposed care over 33 months. That is obviously bad but what upsets me is the statement from the Council:

    ""While we cannot discuss the details of current or former employees, we would reassure that the practice highlighted in this case is historic in nature and was dealt with robustly at the time.

    "The case was first reported by the council to the SSSC, over three years ago and this week's hearing is the conclusion of that referral.

    "This case does not reflect our current practice or the high standard of professionalism which we expect and receive from our social work staff."

    "Robustly at the time?" Does that mean her line manager was sacked, her line manager's supervisor demoted as clearly being incompetent or explain how she was able to accrue such a collection of chaos over an extended period without anyone apparently noticing? I suspect not.

    This woman was 60. For just how long was she incompetent and putting children at risk? And what did her managers do about it?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    DavidL said:

    This is a truly surreal time in the USA. Clinton should clearly be in jail for her dishonesty and cavalier disregard of national security and now it turns out that Trump should be too. Have there ever been 2 more disreputable candidates for the White House in the same election?

    Nixon must be looking down (or possibly up) and lamenting the collapse of standards. Do you want a crook in the Whitehouse? Well, which one?

    Nixon is probably taking credit for trailblazing.
    Nixon has had a remarkable career since office. The subject of so many movies. Remarkable.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,110
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Not being able to watch Tim Farron's speech live as I have a job and a life, I've just read it (text is on libdemvoice). Good barnstorming traditional Farron stuff - indeed, some of it recycled Farron stuff but not bad nevertheless.

    On Europe, the commitment to a referendum on the A50 negotiation outcome remains but as I said this morning, I have serious doubts about this. At no point has Farron said what would happen if the public reject the A50 negotiation outcome - we would be in wholly uncharted waters.

    My view remains the A50 negotiations have to be conducted and the post-EU economic future made a lot clearer. In 2019, we formally exit the EU and the following year we have a General Election where those opposed to the A50 plan can state their alternatives whether it be a re-negotiation to change either Single Market or Freedom of Movement.

    Otherwise, we know the rest - success will be measured in terms of local Government seats gained or re-gained just as it was after 1970 and the activist base built or re-built.

    Not a game-changing speech by any means but a competent second speech after a tumultuous year. I do think the 2017 County Council elections will be significant - will we see an LD recovery and will that mask a Conservative advance on the back of a UKIP decline ?

    Poor LibDems. Give their Leader's speech on the day Brad and Angelina split....
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    DavidL said:

    This is a truly surreal time in the USA. Clinton should clearly be in jail for her dishonesty and cavalier disregard of national security and now it turns out that Trump should be too. Have there ever been 2 more disreputable candidates for the White House in the same election?

    Nixon must be looking down (or possibly up) and lamenting the collapse of standards. Do you want a crook in the Whitehouse? Well, which one?

    Nixon is probably taking credit for trailblazing.
    Nixon has had a remarkable career since office. The subject of so many movies. Remarkable.
    Perhaps Hillary's legacy will be providing roles for over-the-hill actresses.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    I suspect there's a Trump Mafia story going to break between now and November.

    His supporters don't care. They think America is on the decline because Mexicans and Muslims they will vote for him no matter what. Hillary needs to enthuase the Obama coalition or she loses. Simple as that.
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    edited September 2016

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    I see you've erased the US and South Africa from your club. Progress.

    Counting Canada twice won't work though. ;)
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Doesn't matter much - but Maine is split 50-50: The state is a tie and the two districts are 1 each.
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    Excellent article. I could have written it myself! The unions are, of course, key. They will do for Corbyn in the end. I am looking at 2018, unless there is a general election before that.

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    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/
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    Excellent article. I could have written it myself! The unions are, of course, key. They will do for Corbyn in the end. I am looking at 2018, unless there is a general election before that.

    Yes, I think the men in grey boiler suits will arrive, once it is clear their members and their own dreams of having a say over union legislation, workers rights etc are all dust under a new forthcoming Tory landslide.

    Unions vs momentum - will be fascinating come 2018/19.
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    Mr. 1983, sound tasty.

    Mr. Borough, I'm perplexed by this view that white Americans and Britons are basically the same, and non-white Americans and Britons are basically the same.

    I'm also unsure why skin colour matters when it comes to voting on the EU.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    Interestingly blinkered view on his part that he takes it as a given that white/non white ratio is critical. Overall I think he is right though - the USA is far too different from us to read across from one to the other, and the shared language just obscures that fact.
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    nunu said:

    I suspect there's a Trump Mafia story going to break between now and November.

    His supporters don't care. They think America is on the decline because Mexicans and Muslims they will vote for him no matter what. Hillary needs to enthuase the Obama coalition or she loses. Simple as that.

    I no longer make bold predictions about US politics, having learned my lesson last time around. All I'll say is that Trump does look like a real possibility now. That may turn out to be his biggest problem as however dedicated his true believers are, they are a minority. Trump needs to make it all about Hillary. She needs to do the opposite. She has more ammunition, he is better at deploying what he does have. What a mess. If Trump wins, I think the US is worth avoiding for a few months until things settle down. The streets are going to be very angry in a lot of cities.

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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    Maybe common themes of anti-globalisation and alienation. The big difference is in personalities. If Donald Trump wins, it will be because Middle America decided, here's someone who cares about me, who is dealing with things that matter to me, is on my side, and will make America great again.

    Berlusconi on steriods.
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    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    I see you've erased the US and South Africa from your club. Progress.

    Counting Canada twice won't work though. ;)
    Places like South Africa and Singapore will join in due course but a bit of a stretch on day 1.

    If you use the existing instution of the commonwealth then they would be already in- sort of.

    But all states would be free to be members of whichever new commonwealth institutes they wish to join providing others dont object.

    So COFMA (Commonwealth Free Movement Area) will likely have rules limiting benefits unless equivalent reciprocal in place and can only move to other countries if appointed to a suitable job) etc so probably just places like CANZUK, Singapore, Malaysia and possibly SA

    However COTFA (Commonwealth Tariff Free Area) will likely have quite wider membership.

    COSC (Commonwealth Single Currency) wont be happening as it would destroy the institution.

    Sumilarly CC and CP (Commonwealth Commission and Commonwealth Parliament) wont either as not only would it be a disaster but it would create a bureaucratic monolith. Commonwealth is a free association of Sovereign States not a bossy proto superstate.

    As the EU becomes ever more of a basket case, other EU members may wish to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth instead. As we are currently sharing soveriegnty with them they would qualify.

    I think we will need a more Dynamic Sectretary General though. Boris Perhaps.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    edited September 2016

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    I see you've erased the US and South Africa from your club. Progress.

    Counting Canada twice won't work though. ;)
    So COFMA (Commonwealth Free Movement Area) will likely have rules limiting benefits unless equivalent reciprocal in place and can only move to other countries if appointed to a suitable job) etc so probably just places like CANZUK, Singapore, Malaysia and possibly SA
    How about a single currency - the Commonwealth Monetary Area, or COMA?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    I see you've erased the US and South Africa from your club. Progress.

    Counting Canada twice won't work though. ;)
    Places like South Africa and Singapore will join in due course but a bit of a stretch on day 1.

    If you use the existing instution of the commonwealth then they would be already in- sort of.

    But all states would be free to be members of whichever new commonwealth institutes they wish to join providing others dont object.

    So COFMA (Commonwealth Free Movement Area) will likely have rules limiting benefits unless equivalent reciprocal in place and can only move to other countries if appointed to a suitable job) etc so probably just places like CANZUK, Singapore, Malaysia and possibly SA

    However COTFA (Commonwealth Tariff Free Area) will likely have quite wider membership.

    COSC (Commonwealth Single Currency) wont be happening as it would destroy the institution.

    Sumilarly CC and CP (Commonwealth Commission and Commonwealth Parliament) wont either as not only would it be a disaster but it would create a bureaucratic monolith. Commonwealth is a free association of Sovereign States not a bossy proto superstate.

    As the EU becomes ever more of a basket case, other EU members may wish to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth instead. As we are currently sharing soveriegnty with them they would qualify.

    I think we will need a more Dynamic Sectretary General though. Boris Perhaps.
    Will the British government allow visa free travel to the UK for Commonwealth countries like India is demanding ? Or, will it just be for Canada, Australia, New Zealand for obvious reasons.
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    Mr. 43, jein. It's not a referendum on liking Trump, but a choice between him and Clinton. Were he facing someone who wasn't so lacking in trust the Democratic candidate would likely be miles ahead.
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    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    I see you've erased the US and South Africa from your club. Progress.

    Counting Canada twice won't work though. ;)
    So COFMA (Commonwealth Free Movement Area) will likely have rules limiting benefits unless equivalent reciprocal in place and can only move to other countries if appointed to a suitable job) etc so probably just places like CANZUK, Singapore, Malaysia and possibly SA
    How about a single currency - the Commonwealth Monetary Area, or COMA?
    No No No
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,332



    Poor LibDems. Give their Leader's speech on the day Brad and Angelina split....

    I did think it was a bit unfair that Farron didn't make any of the 6 o'clock headlines - the LibDems are still one of the 4 main parties.But at least Brangelina (whoever they might be) were bottom of the list...
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited September 2016
    Will Martin✔@willmartin19
    Tim Farron "Defeat and disappointment are in my blood." Good new slogan for the Lib Dems, that is
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited September 2016

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
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    Mr. Betting, Farron and Corbyn are going to get Conservative strategists made redundant at this rate.
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    Excellent article. I could have written it myself! The unions are, of course, key. They will do for Corbyn in the end. I am looking at 2018, unless there is a general election before that.

    Yes, I think the men in grey boiler suits will arrive, once it is clear their members and their own dreams of having a say over union legislation, workers rights etc are all dust under a new forthcoming Tory landslide.

    Unions vs momentum - will be fascinating come 2018/19.
    2019 is shaping up to be a very interesting year. End of 2 year Art50 period, implementation of all the new boundaries, mass deselections and a possible recession (normal cycle).
This discussion has been closed.