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  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    Though may need to subtract Quebec from Canada
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709

    Mr. 43, jein. It's not a referendum on liking Trump, but a choice between him and Clinton. Were he facing someone who wasn't so lacking in trust the Democratic candidate would likely be miles ahead.

    I'm not sure about that, actually. Donald Trump saw off quite a few Republican challengers who were much better bedded into the system than he was. People will vote for him because they like him.

    I never really understood what people saw in Berlusconi either, and he certainly had a dire effect on Italy. Like all charlatans he tells people what they want to hear. Nobody is more charlatan than Donald Trump.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Ishmael_X said:

    Interestingly blinkered view on his part that he takes it as a given that white/non white ratio is critical. Overall I think he is right though - the USA is far too different from us to read across from one to the other, and the shared language just obscures that fact.

    Non-white groups make up 12% of the UK population, how come Ashcroft's poll — which is where that 6% figure comes from — is out by a factor of two? Am I missing something obvious?

  • Options
    Potentially very big news coming out of today's Labour NEC meeting.

    Rumour is that Scottish and Welsh Labour have both been given NEC seats. If that is the case, and no other places are created on top, Corbyn will almost certainly not have an NEC majority post-Labour conference, as both places are very likely to be filled by non-Corbyn supporters. That will make rule changes far harder for him to achieve.
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016
    geoffw said:
    I think that the key to this is that insulting words has recently been removed from the public order offence so only abusive (or threatening) words is now criminal.

    He changed his plea to guilty during the trial. Judging by the district judges words (note they got a district judge in to Dudley Magistrates Court and didnt risk a magistrate), he didnt stand a cats chance of being found not guilty in the magistrates court and would have had to expensively and stressfully had to go to the appeal court (with presumably the CPS appealing to the Supreme Court if they lost there)

    I'm not a lawyer but I dont think it sets a precedent as he pleaded guilty.

    However the Speccie is right, it is not a good day for freedom of speech and quite chilling.

    I wont repeat what he said here (its in the speccie article) and it was probably insulting (which is no longer illegal) but personally I cant see how it was abusive.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    Though may need to subtract Quebec from Canada
    Quebec voted to stay in Canada by 51% to 49% in 1995. I take it no real movement for a second third referendum?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Alistair said:
    Lol. I hate Trump as much as u. But stop exaggerating every Trump tweet like it has lost him the election. Calm down, do something positive. Donate to the Voto Latino or other voter registration campaigns.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    Though may need to subtract Quebec from Canada
    Quebec voted to stay in Canada by 51% to 49% in 1995. I take it no real movement for a second third referendum?
    Murray won the men's final this year by 115 points to 102. A win's a win.
    Alistair said:
    :lol:

    That is definitely a non-spoof account is it?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I hadn't realised that being an asthma sufferer was an important part of being a successful athlete / cyclist.

    The proportion of asthma sufferers amongst these elite sportspersons must be ten times that of the general population.
  • Options

    Excellent article. I could have written it myself! The unions are, of course, key. They will do for Corbyn in the end. I am looking at 2018, unless there is a general election before that.

    Yes, I think the men in grey boiler suits will arrive, once it is clear their members and their own dreams of having a say over union legislation, workers rights etc are all dust under a new forthcoming Tory landslide.

    Unions vs momentum - will be fascinating come 2018/19.
    2019 is shaping up to be a very interesting year. End of 2 year Art50 period, implementation of all the new boundaries, mass deselections and a possible recession (normal cycle).
    Indeed, but we won’t know how bad it will be until OGH announces his holiday plans. :lol:
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Complete Trump meltdown could be close

    The one that has the most retweets today is this:

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 3h
    Hillary Clinton is taking the day off again, she needs the rest. Sleep well Hillary - see you at the debate!
  • Options
    Looks like Tom Watson has been on manouevres, but this is hard to argue against:
    https://twitter.com/lukeakehurst/status/778284046774304768
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Clipp, the Lib Dems want the moon on a stick, and are asking for a referendum where the choices are a ham sandwich and slight knee ache.

    Their preferred option is nowhere to be seen. Their desire for a referendum is nonsensical.

    Once Article 50 is invoked, a deal is negotiated, then we leave after 2 years or agree an extension to negotiations.

    A party with the word 'Democrats' in the title should have more respect for the will of the people instead of asking them to vote again. It's particularly stupid when the two options on offer will be what the Lib Dems don't want, and what the Lib Dems *really* don't want.

    Well we ask the people every 5 years what government they want :)

    And I can see May delay triggering Art 50 ... indefinitely.
    My view is that May wants to delay Art 50 until the centre of political gravity within the EU comes her way on freedom of movement.

    She can then do a more balanced free trade / migration deal for the UK.

    Personally I think she'll try to hold off until Oct/Nov 2017, once many EU states national elections have subjected them to the same pressures she is under.
    If she's really lucky then Renzi might lose his own referendum, call a general election, and be replaced by Beppe Grillo. At that point the rest of the Eurocracy would be panicking too much to waste time telling Theresa May to get on with it.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    nunu said:

    Alistair said:
    Lol. I hate Trump as much as u. But stop exaggerating every Trump tweet like it has lost him the election. Calm down, do something positive. Donate to the Voto Latino or other voter registration campaigns.
    Trump very clearly has good days and bad days and as the Khan episode shows he can go completely off the rails on Twitter if the right buttons are pushed.

    I don't find it significant, I just find it funny.
  • Options

    Looks like Tom Watson has been on manouevres, but this is hard to argue against:
    https://twitter.com/lukeakehurst/status/778284046774304768

    Looks like Watson is Indulging in a spot of gerrymandering.
  • Options
    surbiton said:


    Will the British government allow visa free travel to the UK for Commonwealth countries like India is demanding ? Or, will it just be for Canada, Australia, New Zealand for obvious reasons.

    English is the majority language in:

    UK
    USA
    Canadia
    NZ
    Australia
    Ireland

    to which we can add the other Commonwealth Realms, as Lizzie's already Head of State:

    Papua New Guinea
    Jamaica
    Solomon Islands
    Bahamas
    Belize
    Barbados
    St Lucia
    St Vincent and the Grenadines
    Grenada
    Antigua and Barbuda
    Saint Kitts and Nevis
    Tuvalu

    and, for the same reason, the Crown Dependencies:

    Guernsey and Alderney
    Jersey
    Man

    also, the UK's current external territories:

    Akrotiri and Dhekelia (Cyprus bases)
    Anguilla
    Bermuda
    British Indian Ocean Territory
    British Virgin Islands
    Cayman Islands
    Falkland Islands
    Gibraltar
    Montserrat
    Pitcairn
    St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
    South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
    Turks and Caicos

    and the USA's current external territories:

    Puerto Rico
    US Virgin Islands
    American Samoa
    Guam
    Northern Mariana Islands
    plus the "Minor Outlying Islands"

    the USA's "associated states":

    Palau
    Micronesia
    Marshall Islands

    Australia's external territories:

    Norfolk Island
    Christmas Island
    Cocos (Keeling) Islands
    Coral Sea and other minor islands

    New Zealand's external territory:

    Tokelau

    New Zealand's "associated states":

    Cook Islands
    Niue

    And last, but not least, Australia and New Zealand's de facto protectorates:

    Kiribati
    Nauru
    Samoa

    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Interesting that Farron this afternoon made a clear pitch for voters disillusioned with hard Brexit Tories and UKIP threatening to take the UK out of the single market as well as moderate Labour voters, praising some aspects of Blair's premiership and saying he could work with Owen Smith but distancing himself from Corbyn. However his poll rating is flatlining, with a net satisfaction of -23% which is even lower than the LDs -13%
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tim-farrons-leadership-flatlining-among-voters-poll-reveals-a3349046.html
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961


    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.

    Are you suggesting we deport @kle4 to this supposed neutral zone? :D
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited September 2016
    Not all LDs seem to have taken on board Farron's warm words for Smith. This is a song which has been doing the rounds at the LD glee club (sung to the tune of Robin Hood) 'Owen Smith, Owen Smith/ Always on TV/ Owen Smith, Owen Smith,/ Who the hell is he?/ Hated by the Left, loathed by the Right/ What a shite, what a shite, what a shite.'
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/londoners-diary-corbyn-and-his-curious-bond-with-joyce-a3349271.html
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,261
    edited September 2016
    RobD said:


    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.

    Are you suggesting we deport @kle4 to this supposed neutral zone? :D
    Yes, on the Kobayashi Maru, naturally :)
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Lots of people in the USA are going to get a whole lot more disenchanted over the next decade so politicians of any flavour should start producing serious answers. Exhibits A and B for this suggestion would be.

    Chinese factory replaces 90% of humans with robots, production soars
    http://www.techrepublic.com/article/chinese-factory-replaces-90-of-humans-with-robots-production-soars/

    New McDonald’s In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots
    http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    We on our own perhaps but a bloc of UK, Canada, Australia, Canada and all dependent territories (which would be bigger than Russia and have a similar population) less so.

    Though may need to subtract Quebec from Canada
    Quebec voted to stay in Canada by 51% to 49% in 1995. I take it no real movement for a second third referendum?
    May be if the next vote is to join a Federation with the Anglosphere as a rival to the EU (a majority of French speaking Quebecois voted to leave Canada in 1995)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited September 2016
    Indigo said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Lots of people in the USA are going to get a whole lot more disenchanted over the next decade so politicians of any flavour should start producing serious answers. Exhibits A and B for this suggestion would be.

    Chinese factory replaces 90% of humans with robots, production soars
    http://www.techrepublic.com/article/chinese-factory-replaces-90-of-humans-with-robots-production-soars/

    New McDonald’s In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots
    http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/
    Not just people in the USA, people in China too, if we end up with mass unemployment as a result of automation, we end up with one of two results, either a vastly expanded welfare state or a world revolution!
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    RobD said:


    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.

    Are you suggesting we deport @kle4 to this supposed neutral zone? :D
    Yes, on the Kobayashi Maru, naturally :)
    If we're heading for Adromeda, we need to beware of the barrier at the edge of the galaxy
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:


    Will the British government allow visa free travel to the UK for Commonwealth countries like India is demanding ? Or, will it just be for Canada, Australia, New Zealand for obvious reasons.

    English is the majority language in:

    UK
    USA
    Canadia
    NZ
    Australia
    Ireland

    to which we can add the other Commonwealth Realms, as Lizzie's already Head of State:

    Papua New Guinea
    Jamaica
    Solomon Islands
    Bahamas
    Belize
    Barbados
    St Lucia
    St Vincent and the Grenadines
    Grenada
    Antigua and Barbuda
    Saint Kitts and Nevis
    Tuvalu

    and, for the same reason, the Crown Dependencies:

    Guernsey and Alderney
    Jersey
    Man

    also, the UK's current external territories:

    Akrotiri and Dhekelia (Cyprus bases)
    Anguilla
    Bermuda
    British Indian Ocean Territory
    British Virgin Islands
    Cayman Islands
    Falkland Islands
    Gibraltar
    Montserrat
    Pitcairn
    St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
    South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
    Turks and Caicos

    and the USA's current external territories:

    Puerto Rico
    US Virgin Islands
    American Samoa
    Guam
    Northern Mariana Islands
    plus the "Minor Outlying Islands"

    the USA's "associated states":

    Palau
    Micronesia
    Marshall Islands

    Australia's external territories:

    Norfolk Island
    Christmas Island
    Cocos (Keeling) Islands
    Coral Sea and other minor islands

    New Zealand's external territory:

    Tokelau

    New Zealand's "associated states":

    Cook Islands
    Niue

    And last, but not least, Australia and New Zealand's de facto protectorates:

    Kiribati
    Nauru
    Samoa

    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.
    You do lead a sad life.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    The EU is only a superpower in its relations with powers lesser than itself. Its dealings with Russia demonstrate how far from superpower status it is.

    To be a superpower requires:

    - economic power (and for superpowers on the rise, balance of payments surplus)
    - ability to project military power globally
    - a world view
    - political will

    The EU lacks all but the first qualification of a superpower (except in its dealings with Brexit, where it may have the fourth also).
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:


    Will the British government allow visa free travel to the UK for Commonwealth countries like India is demanding ? Or, will it just be for Canada, Australia, New Zealand for obvious reasons.

    English is the majority language in:

    UK
    USA
    Canadia
    NZ
    Australia
    Ireland

    to which we can add the other Commonwealth Realms, as Lizzie's already Head of State:

    Papua New Guinea
    Jamaica
    Solomon Islands
    Bahamas
    Belize
    Barbados
    St Lucia
    St Vincent and the Grenadines
    Grenada
    Antigua and Barbuda
    Saint Kitts and Nevis
    Tuvalu

    and, for the same reason, the Crown Dependencies:

    Guernsey and Alderney
    Jersey
    Man

    also, the UK's current external territories:

    Akrotiri and Dhekelia (Cyprus bases)
    Anguilla
    Bermuda
    British Indian Ocean Territory
    British Virgin Islands
    Cayman Islands
    Falkland Islands
    Gibraltar
    Montserrat
    Pitcairn
    St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
    South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
    Turks and Caicos

    and the USA's current external territories:

    Puerto Rico
    US Virgin Islands
    American Samoa
    Guam
    Northern Mariana Islands
    plus the "Minor Outlying Islands"

    the USA's "associated states":

    Palau
    Micronesia
    Marshall Islands

    Australia's external territories:

    Norfolk Island
    Christmas Island
    Cocos (Keeling) Islands
    Coral Sea and other minor islands

    New Zealand's external territory:

    Tokelau

    New Zealand's "associated states":

    Cook Islands
    Niue

    And last, but not least, Australia and New Zealand's de facto protectorates:

    Kiribati
    Nauru
    Samoa

    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.
    You do lead a sad life.
    Says the person posting on PB.com ;)
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:


    Will the British government allow visa free travel to the UK for Commonwealth countries like India is demanding ? Or, will it just be for Canada, Australia, New Zealand for obvious reasons.

    English is the majority language in:

    UK
    USA
    Canadia
    NZ
    Australia
    Ireland

    to which we can add the other Commonwealth Realms, as Lizzie's already Head of State:

    Papua New Guinea
    Jamaica
    Solomon Islands
    Bahamas
    Belize
    Barbados
    St Lucia
    St Vincent and the Grenadines
    Grenada
    Antigua and Barbuda
    Saint Kitts and Nevis
    Tuvalu

    and, for the same reason, the Crown Dependencies:

    Guernsey and Alderney
    Jersey
    Man

    also, the UK's current external territories:

    Akrotiri and Dhekelia (Cyprus bases)
    Anguilla
    Bermuda
    British Indian Ocean Territory
    British Virgin Islands
    Cayman Islands
    Falkland Islands
    Gibraltar
    Montserrat
    Pitcairn
    St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
    South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
    Turks and Caicos

    and the USA's current external territories:

    Puerto Rico
    US Virgin Islands
    American Samoa
    Guam
    Northern Mariana Islands
    plus the "Minor Outlying Islands"

    the USA's "associated states":

    Palau
    Micronesia
    Marshall Islands

    Australia's external territories:

    Norfolk Island
    Christmas Island
    Cocos (Keeling) Islands
    Coral Sea and other minor islands

    New Zealand's external territory:

    Tokelau

    New Zealand's "associated states":

    Cook Islands
    Niue

    And last, but not least, Australia and New Zealand's de facto protectorates:

    Kiribati
    Nauru
    Samoa

    NB. I have excluded UK's and NZ's Antarctica claims, as it's basically only penguins living there! But more seriously, I think the whole of Antarctica should be one large neutral zone.
    You do lead a sad life.
    "We must be SAD, literally SAD!" :lol:
  • Options
    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    The EU is only a superpower in its relations with powers lesser than itself. Its dealings with Russia demonstrate how far from superpower status it is.

    To be a superpower requires:

    - economic power (and for superpowers on the rise, balance of payments surplus)
    - ability to project military power globally
    - a world view
    - political will

    The EU lacks all but the first qualification of a superpower (except in its dealings with Brexit, where it may have the fourth also).
    By those criteria, Russia is only a superpower because of its nuclear arsenal. Even in the Cold War, its ability to project conventional forces globally was restricted, especially compared to the US.

    Projecting political power is another matter, and generally much cheaper.
  • Options
    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited September 2016
    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Lots of people in the USA are going to get a whole lot more disenchanted over the next decade so politicians of any flavour should start producing serious answers. Exhibits A and B for this suggestion would be.

    Chinese factory replaces 90% of humans with robots, production soars
    http://www.techrepublic.com/article/chinese-factory-replaces-90-of-humans-with-robots-production-soars/

    New McDonald’s In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots
    http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/
    Not just people in the USA, people in China too, if we end up with mass unemployment as a result of automation, we end up with one of two results, either a vastly expanded welfare state or a world revolution!
    I am currently weighing up coming back to the rat race in the UK and trying to pick up in Corporate IT again, or staying here in the Philippines and living an incredibly relaxed (although in western terms, rather basic) life near the sea and making ends meet by renting motorcycles to tourists ;) Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)
  • Options
    Mr. Jessop, Ukraine, Georgia and Syria would probably disagree on Russia's ability to project military power.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2016
    Monmouth just popped out a Hilary +5 in Florida, which is down from their Hilary +9 last month.
    https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/778279042093023232
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Indigo said:

    Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)

    Get a job as a robo-burger technician, it's the next big thing!
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Looks like Tom Watson has been on manouevres, but this is hard to argue against:
    https://twitter.com/lukeakehurst/status/778284046774304768

    Scottish Labour permanently under the thumb of London then.

    TM wee Malkie
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Indigo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Lots of people in the USA are going to get a whole lot more disenchanted over the next decade so politicians of any flavour should start producing serious answers. Exhibits A and B for this suggestion would be.

    Chinese factory replaces 90% of humans with robots, production soars
    http://www.techrepublic.com/article/chinese-factory-replaces-90-of-humans-with-robots-production-soars/

    New McDonald’s In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots
    http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/
    Not just people in the USA, people in China too, if we end up with mass unemployment as a result of automation, we end up with one of two results, either a vastly expanded welfare state or a world revolution!
    I am currently weighing up coming back to the rat race in the UK and trying to pick up in Corporate IT again, or staying here in the Philippines and living an incredibly relaxed (although in western terms, rather basic) life near the sea and making ends meet by renting motorcycles to tourists ;) Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)
    Sounds a good deal if you have some capital set aside too and of course the cost of living is much cheaper in the Philippines. However the average Filipino could ultimately be just as threatened by automation as the average Brit
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    glw said:

    Indigo said:

    Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)

    Get a job as a robo-burger technician, it's the next big thing!
    Funny you should say that, since I have been out of IT for 6-7 years my skills are so rusty as to be almost useless, so retraining as an electrician (with possibly specialisation in robotic burger flipping tech) might not be out of the question ;)
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    Mr. Jessop, Ukraine, Georgia and Syria would probably disagree on Russia's ability to project military power.

    Globally. They are all very regional for Russia (and Syria forces are minor).

    We're talking about the sort of forces the US put into Vietnam or Iraq, which the USSR could only muster in Eastern Europe or the Far East.

    Basically expeditionary warfare.
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    Alistair said:

    Monmouth just popped out a Hilary +5 in Florida, which is down from their Hilary +9 last month.
    https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/778279042093023232

    The sample is 400. Seems low to me, but gets an A+ from 538.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    I am currently weighing up coming back to the rat race in the UK and trying to pick up in Corporate IT again, or staying here in the Philippines and living an incredibly relaxed (although in western terms, rather basic) life near the sea and making ends meet by renting motorcycles to tourists ;) Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)

    Sounds a good deal if you have some capital set aside too and of course the cost of living is much cheaper in the Philippines. However the average Filipino could ultimately be just as threatened by automation as the average Brit
    True enough, but its going to be a long time. I went to the cemetery a couple of weeks ago to refresh flowers etc, and was reminded of the army of teenage boys running around with shears cutting the lawns, because paying them with their shears costs the owners substantially less than buying a lawn mower. If its not economical to buy a lawnmower its going to be some time before people look at robo-burgers!

    Cost of living here in the remote islands is seriously cheap, the living costs for me and my daughter comes to around £800-900 per month which includes my monthly flight to go and buy more westerner friendly food supplies in the City ;)
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    edited September 2016
    Indigo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    I am currently weighing up coming back to the rat race in the UK and trying to pick up in Corporate IT again, or staying here in the Philippines and living an incredibly relaxed (although in western terms, rather basic) life near the sea and making ends meet by renting motorcycles to tourists ;) Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)

    Sounds a good deal if you have some capital set aside too and of course the cost of living is much cheaper in the Philippines. However the average Filipino could ultimately be just as threatened by automation as the average Brit
    True enough, but its going to be a long time. I went to the cemetery a couple of weeks ago to refresh flowers etc, and was reminded of the army of teenage boys running around with shears cutting the lawns, because paying them with their shears costs the owners substantially less than buying a lawn mower. If its not economical to buy a lawnmower its going to be some time before people look at robo-burgers!

    Cost of living here in the remote islands is seriously cheap, the living costs for me and my daughter comes to around £800-900 per month which includes my monthly flight to go and buy more westerner friendly food supplies in the City ;)
    You fly all the way to EC1 to buy supplies?

    :smile:

    Seriously, though - when I was in Honkers, I missed much about the UK, mainly Radio 4, and any serious debate about anything other than the HSI in the papers. Now, of course, with the internet those would be trivial issues. Not many Old Maids cycling hither and thither in the Philippines, that said.

    But I think there is a limit to how much someone can be away from their homeland so my vote (on your behalf) would be Remain. I mean Leave.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Indigo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    I am currently weighing up coming back to the rat race in the UK and trying to pick up in Corporate IT again, or staying here in the Philippines and living an incredibly relaxed (although in western terms, rather basic) life near the sea and making ends meet by renting motorcycles to tourists ;) Starting to feel quite tempted by some major downshifting and leaving all the robo-burger angst to you guys ;)

    Sounds a good deal if you have some capital set aside too and of course the cost of living is much cheaper in the Philippines. However the average Filipino could ultimately be just as threatened by automation as the average Brit
    True enough, but its going to be a long time. I went to the cemetery a couple of weeks ago to refresh flowers etc, and was reminded of the army of teenage boys running around with shears cutting the lawns, because paying them with their shears costs the owners substantially less than buying a lawn mower. If its not economical to buy a lawnmower its going to be some time before people look at robo-burgers!

    Cost of living here in the remote islands is seriously cheap, the living costs for me and my daughter comes to around £800-900 per month which includes my monthly flight to go and buy more westerner friendly food supplies in the City ;)
    Mind you you can get teenagers in the UK who will cut your grass for less than the price of a lawnmower. However glad to see you are enjoying life in the Philippines, my mother's cousin is married to a Filipino and has certainly enjoyed his trips out there
  • Options
    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    edited September 2016
    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Not actually in the UK, with a -73 favourability rating gap he wouldn't. Thankfully the people of Britain can sense a fraud when they see one, even if a group of Americans can't. Shockingly, his popularity is even lower than Putin's, Corbyn being a relatiively stratospheric -25.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/theresa-may-more-popular-jeremy-corbyn-among-tradi/
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Pulpstar said:

    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    619 said:

    NC poll:

    Trump 44
    Clinton 43

    Tie in a must win for Trump

    MI Poll

    Trump 44
    Clinton 44

    Tie in a must win for Clinton
    Old poll?
    Pollster Start Date End Date
    Ipsos/Reuters 26/08/2016 15/09/2016
    What do you make of the ipsos/reuters state polls?

    They have a very odd projection for Vermont ;

    http://www.reuters.com/statesofthenation/
    Does look a bit odd.

    I'm not one for cherry picking polls mind, and I think the debates are going to be crucial.

    No I don't think VT is going red :)
    Vermont used to be a strong Republican state. Nixon won it easily in both 1960 and 1968.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    IanB2 said:

    "Theresa May did so little in the Remain campaign that she actually made it look like Jeremy Corbyn pulled a shift "

    Brilliant ...,, !!!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Not actually in the UK, with a -73 favourability rating gap he wouldn't. Thankfully the people of Britain can sense a fraud when they see one, even if a group of Americans can't. Shockingly, his popularity is even lower than Putin's, Corbyn being a relatiively stratospheric -25.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/theresa-may-more-popular-jeremy-corbyn-among-tradi/
    What has that got anything to do with it? Trump is not running in the UK (though UKIP voters are far more favourable towards him). However his anti immigration, anti globalisation message was pivotal to the Leave victory in the UK, which was why he invited Farage to his rally
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Alistair said:

    @Alistair The debates are quite likely to prove very confusing because the two candidates will be trying to do very different things. Hillary Clinton will be trying to win a conventional political debate. Donald Trump will be trying to give a spellbinding theatrical performance.

    Both might well succeed in their aims. But it is unclear which is going to be clinching in the ballot box.

    Trump is all over the shop when it comes to presentation. If you watch the video of his 'Obama was born in America. Period' "press conference" his delivery was stilted, slow, breathy - like someone with health problems.

    When he gets to do some rambly free association at the rallies then his delivery improves dramatically but his content meanders dangerously -what odds he does 15 minutes on why Hispanic judges should be disbarred from hearing his case at the debates.
    "Trump is all over the shop when it comes to presentation. If you watch the video of his 'Obama was born in America. Period' "press conference" his delivery was stilted, slow, breathy - like someone with health problems."

    Seriously... Someone with "health problems" . I know you ramp for HRC all the time but FFS?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807

    MTimT said:

    FF43 said:

    MaxPB said:



    He's outed himself as a delusional EUphile already with his "middle rank" comments earlier today. His comments can be safely ignored from now on.

    I thought my comments were interesting. Maybe they didn't quite hold up when tested, but I learnt something from the reaction they generated. A more sophisticated point perhaps is that as a country we don't deploy well the power and influence we do have. We really dislike multilateralism but that's the context a middle ranking power like us can influence the most. Bilateralism is for superpowers like the US, China and the EU in its eternal relations: Your choice: (a) Take it. (b) Leave it. When dealing with those three we are at the receiving end of that choice.
    The EU is only a superpower in its relations with powers lesser than itself. Its dealings with Russia demonstrate how far from superpower status it is.

    To be a superpower requires:

    - economic power (and for superpowers on the rise, balance of payments surplus)
    - ability to project military power globally
    - a world view
    - political will

    The EU lacks all but the first qualification of a superpower (except in its dealings with Brexit, where it may have the fourth also).
    By those criteria, Russia is only a superpower because of its nuclear arsenal. Even in the Cold War, its ability to project conventional forces globally was restricted, especially compared to the US.

    Projecting political power is another matter, and generally much cheaper.
    I'm not sure there are any superpowers now, although the US and China rank as great powers. Beneath that level, I'd say Russia, France, the UK, India, Japan, Iran, Turkey, Germany, Brazil, rank as significant powers.

    But, it's hard to be a significant power on the basis of soft power only. One has to be prepared to take casualties and sometimes put guns before butter.
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Not actually in the UK, with a -73 favourability rating gap he wouldn't. Thankfully the people of Britain can sense a fraud when they see one, even if a group of Americans can't. Shockingly, his popularity is even lower than Putin's, Corbyn being a relatiively stratospheric -25.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/theresa-may-more-popular-jeremy-corbyn-among-tradi/
    What has that got anything to do with it? Trump is not running in the UK (though UKIP voters are far more favourable towards him). However his anti immigration, anti globalisation message was pivotal to the Leave victory in the UK, which was why he invited Farage to his rally
    So it's not demographics, it's just the mindset that a number of Americans have that gives him a chance.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Not actually in the UK, with a -73 favourability rating gap he wouldn't. Thankfully the people of Britain can sense a fraud when they see one, even if a group of Americans can't. Shockingly, his popularity is even lower than Putin's, Corbyn being a relatiively stratospheric -25.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/theresa-may-more-popular-jeremy-corbyn-among-tradi/
    What has that got anything to do with it? Trump is not running in the UK (though UKIP voters are far more favourable towards him). However his anti immigration, anti globalisation message was pivotal to the Leave victory in the UK, which was why he invited Farage to his rally
    So it's not demographics, it's just the mindset that a number of Americans have that gives him a chance.
    Nope, it is exactly the same mindset as over here ie opposition to more immigration and globalisation which gives him a chance, just Boris was better at selling that message over here than Trump would be
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited September 2016
    .
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Moses_ said:

    Alistair said:

    @Alistair The debates are quite likely to prove very confusing because the two candidates will be trying to do very different things. Hillary Clinton will be trying to win a conventional political debate. Donald Trump will be trying to give a spellbinding theatrical performance.

    Both might well succeed in their aims. But it is unclear which is going to be clinching in the ballot box.

    Trump is all over the shop when it comes to presentation. If you watch the video of his 'Obama was born in America. Period' "press conference" his delivery was stilted, slow, breathy - like someone with health problems.

    When he gets to do some rambly free association at the rallies then his delivery improves dramatically but his content meanders dangerously -what odds he does 15 minutes on why Hispanic judges should be disbarred from hearing his case at the debates.
    "Trump is all over the shop when it comes to presentation. If you watch the video of his 'Obama was born in America. Period' "press conference" his delivery was stilted, slow, breathy - like someone with health problems."

    Seriously... Someone with "health problems" . I know you ramp for HRC all the time but FFS?
    Trumpers are so easy to wind up.

    But seriously, watch the video. It was not the speech pattern of a healthy individual.
  • Options
    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Not actually in the UK, with a -73 favourability rating gap he wouldn't. Thankfully the people of Britain can sense a fraud when they see one, even if a group of Americans can't. Shockingly, his popularity is even lower than Putin's, Corbyn being a relatiively stratospheric -25.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/theresa-may-more-popular-jeremy-corbyn-among-tradi/
    What has that got anything to do with it? Trump is not running in the UK (though UKIP voters are far more favourable towards him). However his anti immigration, anti globalisation message was pivotal to the Leave victory in the UK, which was why he invited Farage to his rally
    So it's not demographics, it's just the mindset that a number of Americans have that gives him a chance.
    Nope, it is exactly the same mindset as over here ie opposition to more immigration and globalisation which gives him a chance, just Boris was better at selling that message over here than Trump would be
    Trump is an extremist, Boris is not.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited September 2016
    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    HYUFD said:

    I know some PBers have been interested in parallels between Trump and Brexit. Larry Sabato's not so convinced:

    "Brexit isn’t necessarily a great parallel for our election, both because it was a ballot issue while ours is a choice among candidates, and because the British Brexit electorate (6% nonwhite) and the U.S. presidential electorate (approaching 30% nonwhite) are dramatically different."

    Part of an interesting article on changes to toss-up states in recent week. Still HRC, but less certain:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-trump-surge/

    The big issue in both campaigns is anti immigration and anti globalisation and especially the disenchantment of the white working class which was capitalised on by Leave and is being exploited by Trump. It may be demographics which allow Hillary to scrape over the line in the US, with UK demographics Trump would now almost certainly win
    Not actually in the UK, with a -73 favourability rating gap he wouldn't. Thankfully the people of Britain can sense a fraud when they see one, even if a group of Americans can't. Shockingly, his popularity is even lower than Putin's, Corbyn being a relatiively stratospheric -25.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/15/theresa-may-more-popular-jeremy-corbyn-among-tradi/
    What has that got anything to do with it? Trump is not running in the UK (though UKIP voters are far more favourable towards him). However his anti immigration, anti globalisation message was pivotal to the Leave victory in the UK, which was why he invited Farage to his rally
    So it's not demographics, it's just the mindset that a number of Americans have that gives him a chance.
    Nope, it is exactly the same mindset as over here ie opposition to more immigration and globalisation which gives him a chance, just Boris was better at selling that message over here than Trump would be
    Trump is an extremist, Boris is not.
    Boris may have presented himself as a multilingual intellectual but his message on immigration was as clear as Trump's, he attacked Cameron in the campaign for failing to control immigration from the EU as Trump attacks Hillary and Obama for failing to control it from Mexico in the US
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/669468/Boris-Johnson-David-Cameron-immigration-Brexit-Vote-Leave-EU-referendum
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    There is a clear difference in terms of Boris having also made many liberal decisions as mayor and beyond; you are correct that Boris has made some extremist remarks though, as is his wont regarding putting his foot in it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Thrak said:

    There is a clear difference in terms of Boris having also made many liberal decisions as mayor and beyond; you are correct that Boris has made some extremist remarks though, as is his wont regarding putting his foot in it.

    Trump was once a Democrat and a liberal New Yorker, so what we are talking about the campaigns this year which are all that are relevant. The Leave campaign, led by Boris and Farage and the Trump campaign were and are both driven by opposition to immigration and resentment at the global elite and focused on the white working class above all
  • Options
    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    HYUFD said:

    Thrak said:

    There is a clear difference in terms of Boris having also made many liberal decisions as mayor and beyond; you are correct that Boris has made some extremist remarks though, as is his wont regarding putting his foot in it.

    Trump was once a Democrat and a liberal New Yorker, so what we are talking about the campaigns this year which are all that are relevant. The Leave campaign, led by Boris and Farage and the Trump campaign were and are both driven by opposition to immigration and resentment at the global elite and focused on the white working class above all
    Trump is the elite with bells on. His policies are designed to benefit the elite to a great degree. The biggest con in politics is to say you are for the people when you are just using them.

    He is a deeply evil man.
This discussion has been closed.