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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s local by-election woes continue

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  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.
  • Jews for Jezza campaign started well...

    Anger as Jeremy Corbyn campaign video dismisses antisemitism accusations

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/163605/anger-jeremy-corbyn-campaign-video-dismisses-antisemitism-accusations
  • nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
  • MP_SE said:

    Are there approved Leaver and Remainer whiskies and wines? Just so that I can make sure that I don't slip up accidentally.

    Art disclosure: I rather like the bricks but have a complete blind spot on Cy Twombly. And I reserve the right to enjoy Turner, Constable and Stubbs.

    All whiskies are out because of the jocks.
    Wines have to be from South Africa or NZ.
    Australian wines are OK too, so long as covered by Robert Parker's "points-based system".

    Of your art choices, I'm afraid Twombly is beyond the pale. Only Constable and Stubbs truly pass muster - Turner shows dangerous abstract tendencies.
    Scotland is not the only place that produces whisky.
    The trouble is finding a whisky made in Brexitland. I believe there is a Welsh one, perhaps that's ok, with appropriate permission from the Brexit authorities of course.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    So Islam is hundreds of years younger .
    Younger than what? Muslims use all the modern Western gadgets and technology
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    Are there approved Leaver and Remainer whiskies and wines? Just so that I can make sure that I don't slip up accidentally.

    Art disclosure: I rather like the bricks but have a complete blind spot on Cy Twombly. And I reserve the right to enjoy Turner, Constable and Stubbs.

    All whiskies are out because of the jocks.
    Wines have to be from South Africa or NZ.
    Australian wines are OK too, so long as covered by Robert Parker's "points-based system".

    Of your art choices, I'm afraid Twombly is beyond the pale. Only Constable and Stubbs truly pass muster - Turner shows dangerous abstract tendencies.
    Scotland is not the only place that produces whisky.
    The trouble is finding a whisky made in Brexitland. I believe there is a Welsh one, perhaps that's ok, with appropriate permission from the Brexit authorities of course.
    How about Japan. Only little Europeaners are incapable of seeing beyond the EU for top whisky.
  • I have no idea why Merkel isn't doing so well in the polls...

    A 16-year-old refugee has been arrested at a migrant home in Germany after he was seen 'praying for ISIS' amid fears he was plotting a terror attack.

    Officers from the SEK anti-terror unit seized the Aghan teenager, called Mohammad, at a refugee shelter in Cologne - the fifth such arrest in Germany within a week

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3800193/Afghan-boy-plotting-terror-attack-arrested-German-refugee-centre-seen-praying-ISIS.html
  • MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    Are there approved Leaver and Remainer whiskies and wines? Just so that I can make sure that I don't slip up accidentally.

    Art disclosure: I rather like the bricks but have a complete blind spot on Cy Twombly. And I reserve the right to enjoy Turner, Constable and Stubbs.

    All whiskies are out because of the jocks.
    Wines have to be from South Africa or NZ.
    Australian wines are OK too, so long as covered by Robert Parker's "points-based system".

    Of your art choices, I'm afraid Twombly is beyond the pale. Only Constable and Stubbs truly pass muster - Turner shows dangerous abstract tendencies.
    Scotland is not the only place that produces whisky.
    The trouble is finding a whisky made in Brexitland. I believe there is a Welsh one, perhaps that's ok, with appropriate permission from the Brexit authorities of course.
    How about Japan. Only little Europeaners are incapable of seeing beyond the EU for top whisky.
    Japan - a constitutional monarchy wot drives on the Left!
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited September 2016

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    So Islam is hundreds of years younger .
    Younger than what? Muslims use all the modern Western gadgets and technology
    And don't know what points ur trying to make, my point was both Quran and bible talk about slavery then u linked me to some unrelated bs wiki link.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    test
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    So Islam is hundreds of years younger .
    Younger than what? Muslims use all the modern Western gadgets and technology
    And don't know what points ur trying to make, my point was both Quran and Islam talk about slavery then u linked me to some unrelated bs.
    What is BS? The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery being all Muslim-majority?
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    So Islam is hundreds of years younger .
    You're straying into Trump territory with that argument.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    So Islam is hundreds of years younger .
    You're straying into Trump territory with that argument.
    Lol. I was being sarcastic as Sunil was annoying me.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
  • Fascinating though the detour into the history of Abrahamic religions has been, it is unlikely that the 20% of Trump supporters who regret the abolition of slavery are Muslims.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The trouble is finding a whisky made in Brexitland. I believe there is a Welsh one, perhaps that's ok, with appropriate permission from the Brexit authorities of course.

    https://www.englishwhisky.co.uk/
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    So Islam is hundreds of years younger .
    You're straying into Trump territory with that argument.
    Lol. I was being sarcastic as Sunil was annoying me.
    :innocent:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @eyespymp: Lord Kinnock currently meeting a series of Labour moderate MPs very publicly in the PCH atrium.
  • Bushmills is in deep Leaver territory.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
  • Bushmills is in deep Leaver territory.

    Yeah but NI voted to stay. So, not kosher.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    edited September 2016

    Bushmills is in deep Leaver territory.

    Yeah but NI voted to stay. So, not kosher.
    North Antrim voted to LEAVE!

    62% v 38%
  • COMPLETELY off topic:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/21/family-of-murdered-child-beauty-queen-jonbenet-ramsey-vow-to-sue/

    A forthcoming doco is due to suggest that Jon Benet Ramsay may have been murdered by her brother.

    In my opinion, the creepiest and most mysterious murder case of the last 25 years.
  • Fascinating though the detour into the history of Abrahamic religions has been, it is unlikely that the 20% of Trump supporters who regret the abolition of slavery are Muslims.

    How many Trump supporters back Sharia?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Three cheers for Virginia Raggi for withdrawing Rome's bid for the 2024 Olympics.

    I note that Hamburg also withdrew last year after a referendum won by the spookily familiar majority of 51.6%. I imagine the 48.4% are complaining that yebbut they didn't know what sort of not having the Olympics they were voting for.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Sahil Kapur
    New Bloomberg poll has Clinton winning $100,000+ income earners by 4 points. Romney won them by 10 points. https://t.co/rqIzdXWGyq

    But

    "Higher-income voters do pick Trump over Clinton as the candidate they think would be best for their own investments, 45 percent to 36 percent. Among those who say Trump would be better for their holdings, 17 percent aren’t supporting him. The poll’s overall margin of error is plus or minus 4 percentage points, and is higher in subgroups like those.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    One of the reasons why yours truly self-identifies as an atheist. Other reasons include reincarnation and astrology.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    And for the morally indignant Lib Dems on here

    http://heatst.com/world/revealed-liberal-democrat-councils-take-no-syrian-refugees/

    "So what moral lead have the Lib Dem councils given? How many of the 2,800 Syrian refugees have been made welcome by that Party’s local authorities? The answer, according to the latest set of official figures, is nil.

    Tim Farron’s own Lib Dem-run council of South Lakeland is among them. As the local MP does he not speak to the council leader Cllr Giles Archibald? Has the subject not cropped up?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Test!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    Yes, among other abuses. It needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    One of the reasons why yours truly self-identifies as an atheist. Other reasons include reincarnation and astrology.
    A total non-answer.
  • On topic - Was Farron's defence of Tony Blair's domestic record meant as a naked appeal to the PLP to defect?
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    One of the reasons why yours truly self-identifies as an atheist. Other reasons include reincarnation and astrology.
    A total non-answer.
    Why is it a non-answer? Why would I want to be part of a religion with a so-called "caste" "system"?
  • Modern slavery is low paid jobs, where ppl can never better themselves. Obv not as bad as some forms of slavery in the past.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Kevin Schofield
    Jeremy Corbyn: "Michael Foot did a great job and did his best. We are going to do even better."

    He's reaching for the skies here
  • On topic - Was Farron's defence of Tony Blair's domestic record meant as a naked appeal to the PLP to defect?

    Very interesting idea.
    Worth it, if you thought the Labour Party and perhaps your own seat, is doomed.

    Did we have the discussion yet about Blair closing his consultancy? Could it be, the King returneth?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    edited September 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Kevin Schofield
    Jeremy Corbyn: "Michael Foot did a great job and did his best. We are going to do even better."

    He's reaching for the skies here

    Even Ed did better than Michael Foot!

    Foot only won 209 seats in 1983, while courageous, indefatigable Ed won 232 seats in 2015!

    #YesWeCan!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048
    edited September 2016
    TOPPING said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Toppig.

    You are rather proving my point. Subjective views may differ and I will tease you for yours. But that doesn't make you an idiot. Misguided? That's the nature of subjective views.

    If we ran a double-blind trial, do you believe you could identify your "art" against a selection of random objects. Could you explain why it's art? Or is it a metaphysical thing that I'm not privy to?

    Oh, and have a good day.

    you didn't answer my question about War and Peace. So I'll give you the shorthand version of the answer. Of course the first point to make is that if someone says something is art, then it is art. It just is.

    So also, War and Peace is a work of art. I think we should all be able to agree on that. But it is written in a special language, Russian in this case. Hence, if a non-Russian speaker is to read and enjoy the book, they will need it to be translated. Into English, say.

    Look at modern art in the same way. It uses a vocabulary that many people don't understand. Geometric patterns, found objects, installations, etc. And why should they? There is no innate sense which lets you interpret one of, say, Mondrian's intersecting line paintings.

    So just because you don't understand a work of art, for the entirely understandable reason that you don't know its vocabulary...doesn't mean it is not a work of art. You are in effect saying that if you give an English speaker two books, one in English and one in Russian, he can legitimately say that only the one written in English is art.

    Whether modern art is all good or bad is of course a separate issue.

    Your welcome.
    I think you mean 'You're welcome'.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There is a virtually everything in Maine - they seem to have barely an original name in the whole state. I drove around there a few years back, I seem to recall driving through places like Berlin and Norway, as well as most of the provincial English towns....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964
    PlatoSaid said:

    Kevin Schofield
    Jeremy Corbyn: "Michael Foot did a great job and did his best. We are going to do even better."

    He's reaching for the skies here

    Yep, with a fair wind, catastrophic failure is within Corbyn's reach. Of course, if he underperforms....
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Kevin Schofield
    Jeremy Corbyn: "Michael Foot did a great job and did his best. We are going to do even better."

    He's reaching for the skies here

    From the donkey jacket to the ass-hat.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048
    edited September 2016

    On topic - Was Farron's defence of Tony Blair's domestic record meant as a naked appeal to the PLP to defect?

    Very interesting idea.
    Worth it, if you thought the Labour Party and perhaps your own seat, is doomed.

    Did we have the discussion yet about Blair closing his consultancy? Could it be, the King returneth?
    It's surely more that the work has dried up now that everyone knows our Tony is about as popular as a sick milkshake.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    This is the most entertaining election evah

    CBS
    Don King just dropped the n-word while introducing @realDonaldTrump at a pastors event https://t.co/4eiWzySa1M https://t.co/nUxUMO2zo9
  • On topic - Was Farron's defence of Tony Blair's domestic record meant as a naked appeal to the PLP to defect?

    Very interesting idea.
    Worth it, if you thought the Labour Party and perhaps your own seat, is doomed.

    Did we have the discussion yet about Blair closing his consultancy? Could it be, the King returneth?
    It's surely more that the work has dried up now that everyone knows our Tony is about as popular as a sick milkshake.
    Poor Tony.

    The only man I can think of to have suffered such a fall from grace is Jimmy Savile, and that was only after he karked it.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    One of the reasons why yours truly self-identifies as an atheist. Other reasons include reincarnation and astrology.
    A total non-answer.
    Why is it a non-answer? Why would I want to be part of a religion with a so-called "caste" "system"?
    Because caste is not just about religion and Hinduism - hence why some Christian Indian friends of ours were affected to a small degree. It's a cancer running throughout Indian society.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians

    A simple 'yes' or 'no' would have sufficed, but was seemingly beyond you. Not for the first time.
  • On topic - Was Farron's defence of Tony Blair's domestic record meant as a naked appeal to the PLP to defect?

    Good thought. The singalong session may have harmed the Mirror readers that were Blairites . "Fuc* off and die".
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jobabob said:

    A quick word about 'elites' and 'plebs'.

    Among many PBers it is now considered 'elitist' to:

    • Say that leaving the EU was bad for Britain
    • Dislike Trump and his supporters
    • Live in London
    • Live in Manchester
    • Consider Jeremy Kyle awful TV
    • Like the BBC
    • Call racists racists



    Voted to leave.

    Live in London.

    Not a huge fan of Trump (but sympathise with his supporters in a lot of cases).

    Find daytime TV awful. Jeremy Kyle is surely the worst of the lot.

    Ambivalent about the BBC. Think a subscription model would suit it better and allow it to be more like HBO.

    I guess I'm a minority, but most people think Indians (and Jews) are far too successful to be considered a minority group in the traditional sense of needing protection from the majority. I also think the definition of racism is far too wide and shouldn't include people who make the choice to believe in some kind of wizard who lives in space and tells them to kill other people.
    @Max, you are a member of the elite, you just don't know it yet.
    Oh I don't doubt that I'm a member of the elite. 10 year old me from the council estate is probably pretty amazed, 15-19 year old me is probably disgusted!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    PlatoSaid said:

    Kevin Schofield
    Jeremy Corbyn: "Michael Foot did a great job and did his best. We are going to do even better."

    He's reaching for the skies here

    From the donkey jacket to the ass-hat.
    There's also a hint of trying to re-write history. Obviously that's a thing which has been a theme in some extreme left-wing states.

    Corbyn's 'come back, and all will be forgiven' has these echoes too.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    "August trashing Donald Trump.

    The AP reported:

    Hillary Clinton spent $645,000 more a day than her opponent Donald Trump last month, but even with her $50 million campaign outlay, she has not been able to pull away from him in the race for the White House.

    It didn’t do any good.
    Hillary dropped 10 points in the last month against Donald Trump.

    Hillary was up 46.3 to 41.6 on August 14th.
    Today Donald Trump is up 46.3 to 42.2

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/09/hillary-clinton-blows-50-million-anti-trump-ads-august-drops-10-points-polls/#st_refDomain=&st_refQuery=
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Scott_P said:

    Perhaps Mr Smithson could set up a Brexiters only PB.com where you can pretend 48% of the country have disappeared?

    Already exists

    http://brexitcentral.com/
    Thanks for that.
    Patrick Minford argues convincingly for "full Brexit".
    He concludes:
    "So, in sum, the only action that guarantees we meet what consumers voted for in the Brexit referendum, which was control of our borders and our laws, is that we leave the EU cleanly and rapidly; and the optimal economic way for us to do that is to go to unilateral free trade with all countries including the EU."
    I hope the three amigos take that on board.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    619 said:
    Good poll for Clinton. There are definite hints that Trump has plateaued and is possibly even falling back a smidgeon. Still close though.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    PlatoSaid said:

    And for the morally indignant Lib Dems on here

    http://heatst.com/world/revealed-liberal-democrat-councils-take-no-syrian-refugees/

    "So what moral lead have the Lib Dem councils given? How many of the 2,800 Syrian refugees have been made welcome by that Party’s local authorities? The answer, according to the latest set of official figures, is nil.

    Tim Farron’s own Lib Dem-run council of South Lakeland is among them. As the local MP does he not speak to the council leader Cllr Giles Archibald? Has the subject not cropped up?

    Two faced bast@rds - it's poor cities like where I live that these well off middle classes dump them.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Bushmills is in deep Leaver territory.

    Yeah but NI voted to stay. So, not kosher.
    Penderyn? From deepest Brecon.
  • nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    One of the reasons why yours truly self-identifies as an atheist. Other reasons include reincarnation and astrology.
    A total non-answer.
    Why is it a non-answer? Why would I want to be part of a religion with a so-called "caste" "system"?
    Because caste is not just about religion and Hinduism - hence why some Christian Indian friends of ours were affected to a small degree. It's a cancer running throughout Indian society.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians

    A simple 'yes' or 'no' would have sufficed, but was seemingly beyond you. Not for the first time.
    Well of course it's an unnecessary evil.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
    I went on a day trip to Bangor. A lovely time.
  • DavidL said:

    619 said:
    Good poll for Clinton. There are definite hints that Trump has plateaued and is possibly even falling back a smidgeon. Still close though.
    Yes, it is a good poll. But it's a small sample - just 400 LVs. So some caution is called for.
  • geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:

    Perhaps Mr Smithson could set up a Brexiters only PB.com where you can pretend 48% of the country have disappeared?

    Already exists

    http://brexitcentral.com/
    Thanks for that.
    Patrick Minford argues convincingly for "full Brexit".
    He concludes:
    "So, in sum, the only action that guarantees we meet what consumers voted for in the Brexit referendum, which was control of our borders and our laws, is that we leave the EU cleanly and rapidly; and the optimal economic way for us to do that is to go to unilateral free trade with all countries including the EU."
    I hope the three amigos take that on board.

    Is there a single country on Earth that practices unilateral free trade?

    Minford is certifiable. But, according to Brexitcentral, he argues "convincingly".
  • nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There is a virtually everything in Maine - they seem to have barely an original name in the whole state. I drove around there a few years back, I seem to recall driving through places like Berlin and Norway, as well as most of the provincial English towns....
    Maine is named after the eponymous region of France.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    edited September 2016
    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:

    Perhaps Mr Smithson could set up a Brexiters only PB.com where you can pretend 48% of the country have disappeared?

    Already exists

    http://brexitcentral.com/
    Thanks for that.
    Patrick Minford argues convincingly for "full Brexit".
    He concludes:
    "So, in sum, the only action that guarantees we meet what consumers voted for in the Brexit referendum, which was control of our borders and our laws, is that we leave the EU cleanly and rapidly; and the optimal economic way for us to do that is to go to unilateral free trade with all countries including the EU."
    I hope the three amigos take that on board.
    (Edit: above here is a quote)

    It's hardly convincing stuff.

    "Professor Patrick Minford is one of the UK’s leading macroeconomists and holds the chair of Applied Economics at Cardiff University."

    It's just not true.

    I'll give him 'very good', maybe even 'outstanding', but 'leading'? He's not at Cardiff (sorry Cardiff) because he's unequivocally wonderful.

    Recent book in the article too? Complete coincidence.


  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2016
    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
    I went on a day trip to Bangor. A lovely time.
    Groan. Another joke like that and it’s the ConHome naughty step for you sonny.

    (OK, I chuckled abit)
  • weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
    I went on a day trip to Bangor. A lovely time.
    I might have been on the same trip - it cost me under a pound, you know.
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    weejonnie said:

    It looks as if PA is safely HRC - so Trump's reduced to the Colorado/ Michigan/ Wisconsin / New Hampshire route (Nevada has gone pink). But the thing is - he needs the others (North Carolina/ Florida/ Ohio/ Iowa), none of which are gimmees.

    If he wins North Carolina, Florida and Ohio, then taking Michigan will give him the presidency even if he fails to take either Iowa or Nevada. (Corrections welcome.)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
    I went on a day trip to Bangor. A lovely time.
    I might have been on the same trip - it cost me under a pound, you know.
    Was that the day you went to Bangor?
  • Omnium said:

    It's hardly convincing stuff.

    "Professor Patrick Minford is one of the UK’s leading macroeconomists and holds the chair of Applied Economics at Cardiff University."

    It's just not true.

    I'll give him 'very good', maybe even 'outstanding', but 'leading'? He's not at Cardiff (sorry Cardiff) because he's unequivocally wonderful.

    Recent book in the article too? Complete coincidence.

    The economics may or may not be sound, but the politics is awful. What government is going to say to companies and workers 'Sorry, we are going to let all and sundry undercut you with zero tariffs, and, no, we're not going to insist that they give tariff-free access for your goods in their markets in return'?

    Ain't gonna happen. He's suggesting throwing away all negotiating power before we start. Even by his own calculations, it would wipe out manufacturing here.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784

    DavidL said:

    619 said:
    Good poll for Clinton. There are definite hints that Trump has plateaued and is possibly even falling back a smidgeon. Still close though.
    Yes, it is a good poll. But it's a small sample - just 400 LVs. So some caution is called for.
    clinton + 3 in the four way in WI, which is tight but still hers to lose ok average
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited September 2016

    Omnium said:

    It's hardly convincing stuff.

    "Professor Patrick Minford is one of the UK’s leading macroeconomists and holds the chair of Applied Economics at Cardiff University."

    It's just not true.

    I'll give him 'very good', maybe even 'outstanding', but 'leading'? He's not at Cardiff (sorry Cardiff) because he's unequivocally wonderful.

    Recent book in the article too? Complete coincidence.

    The economics may or may not be sound, but the politics is awful. What government is going to say to companies and workers 'Sorry, we are going to let all and sundry undercut you with zero tariffs, and, no, we're not going to insist that they give tariff-free access for your goods in their markets in return'?

    Ain't gonna happen. He's suggesting throwing away all negotiating power before we start. Even by his own calculations, it would wipe out manufacturing here.
    Of course it is not going to happen, for every tariff and trade restriction the EU puts on UK goods and services May will almost certainly put an equal tariff or restriction on EU goods and services, UKIP would be the same, maybe even Corbyn. Only Orange Book LDs, Blairites and perhaps Osborne and Hannan would be different
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt
  • PlatoSaid said:

    And for the morally indignant Lib Dems on here

    http://heatst.com/world/revealed-liberal-democrat-councils-take-no-syrian-refugees/

    "So what moral lead have the Lib Dem councils given? How many of the 2,800 Syrian refugees have been made welcome by that Party’s local authorities? The answer, according to the latest set of official figures, is nil.

    Tim Farron’s own Lib Dem-run council of South Lakeland is among them. As the local MP does he not speak to the council leader Cllr Giles Archibald? Has the subject not cropped up?

    Two faced bast@rds - it's poor cities like where I live that these well off middle classes dump them.
    That fact that liberal-democrat-councils-take-no-syrian-refugees is a shocker and needs to be thrown into every interview with a Lib Dem. How come the broadcast media have not done this? Andrew Neil where are you?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph

    She's up three, ahead by three, or both?
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph

    She's up three, ahead by three, or both?
    Ahead by 3 - these polls show the difference as most Democrats can't subtract.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited September 2016

    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
    I went on a day trip to Bangor. A lovely time.
    I might have been on the same trip - it cost me under a pound, you know.
    Your nickname Jack? - you owe me that bottle of cider.
  • PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
  • Omnium said:

    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    Just seen there is a Bangor in Maine.

    There are two in the UK:

    Bangor, Wales
    Bangor, Northern Ireland.
    I went on a day trip to Bangor. A lovely time.
    I might have been on the same trip - it cost me under a pound, you know.
    Was that the day you went to Bangor?
    Well, she was a good friend of mine. ;)

    I'll get my coat.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    edited September 2016
    geoffw said:


    I hope the three amigos take that on board.

    I like the unilateral free trade in theory, but I think in practice it's a disaster.

    China - for example - would likely say. "Thank you so much for allowing our goods into the UK without tariffs. Sadly, we won't be able to offer UK goods and services access to our market on terms other than those we offer to other countries."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2016
    Calais camp: Sarkozy says UK must take responsibility

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37428424

    Alright, the French want to give Calais back to us!

    Oh, wait, no, it's the usual whining. I do love it though, as it is a handy reminder that politicians the world over love to grandstand when they are in campaigning mode.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Omnium said:

    It's hardly convincing stuff.

    "Professor Patrick Minford is one of the UK’s leading macroeconomists and holds the chair of Applied Economics at Cardiff University."

    It's just not true.

    I'll give him 'very good', maybe even 'outstanding', but 'leading'? He's not at Cardiff (sorry Cardiff) because he's unequivocally wonderful.

    Recent book in the article too? Complete coincidence.

    The economics may or may not be sound, but the politics is awful. What government is going to say to companies and workers 'Sorry, we are going to let all and sundry undercut you with zero tariffs, and, no, we're not going to insist that they give tariff-free access for your goods in their markets in return'?

    Ain't gonna happen. He's suggesting throwing away all negotiating power before we start. Even by his own calculations, it would wipe out manufacturing here.
    I'd agree completely. What do I know!? It seems to me somewhat economically illiterate anyway.

    I voted Leave (after much soul searching), and when I did so I hoped it'd be a pretty serious break with the EU. It doesn't take a genius to work out what the best course for the UK is outside of the EU - take a big step back (metaphorically) and re-engage as we choose.



  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    PlatoSaid said:

    And for the morally indignant Lib Dems on here

    http://heatst.com/world/revealed-liberal-democrat-councils-take-no-syrian-refugees/

    "So what moral lead have the Lib Dem councils given? How many of the 2,800 Syrian refugees have been made welcome by that Party’s local authorities? The answer, according to the latest set of official figures, is nil.

    Tim Farron’s own Lib Dem-run council of South Lakeland is among them. As the local MP does he not speak to the council leader Cllr Giles Archibald? Has the subject not cropped up?

    Two faced bast@rds - it's poor cities like where I live that these well off middle classes dump them.
    It's much worse than that. They wait for the first indication of resentment towards mass asylum seeker dumping and then use it as proof that the provincials are backward and thick. The inevitable cacophony of wailing about racism, and how this all demonstrates how virtuous the metro left are and how evil the rest of the country is, then ensues.

    The Government ought to consider buying up blocks of houses in areas where lots of upper middle class progressives live and converting them into refugee hostels, rather than shipping all the poor buggers to places like Stoke and Middlesbrough that struggle to cope with them. It would be expensive, but worth it. You have to wonder how long the torrent of hectoring, holier-than-thou, "let them all in" lobbying would survive an encounter with the resultant heady mix of state-enforced social engineering and nose-diving property prices.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Ishmael_X said:

    The Bible also includes guidance on the use of slaves (OK to enslave non-Israelites, not OK to enslave Israelites). For some reason the rightwing headbangers always alight on the Koran when looking for scriptural authority for such behaviour.

    It should be baffling but it really isn't.

    Meanwhile, I see we are enjoined downthread not to be beastly to kippers.

    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.
    Genocide was frequently practised in the ancient world. Enslavement was the humane alternative.

    The Greeks basically argued non-Greeks were servile by their very nature. Greek slaves were rarely freed, and even more rarely given citizenship.

    The Roman outlook was different. Roman slaves were often freed, and acquired citizenship if their master or mistress was Roman. No one could seriously argue that some peoples were naturally servile when so many of their fellow citizens (some of them very wealthy) had been slaves. Romans justified slavery on the basis of prisoners of war, and their families, having their lives spared in return for a period of servitude, or people who were hopelessly indebted having to pay off their debts through their labour.

    The The Transatlantic and Arab slave trades were, as you say, vastly worse.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited September 2016
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph

    She's up three, ahead by three, or both?
    Nate 'Adjusted' the last Marquette University from Clinton +3 to tie

    Edit - sorry that was this one - it is 31st August.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
    The point is Mr Sunil is that something happens and people automatically assume that its terror related, its a sort of knee jerk reaction.. like that guy with mental health problems who stabbed someone in London.

    These things often ARE terrorist related but its best to FIND OUT FIRST before screaming terrorist.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Ishmael_X said:



    There's a persuasive theory that in classical/biblical times enslaving the conquered was the humane alternative to killing them. I think there is something in that and that some flavours of ancient slavery were by orders of magnitude less evil than the European and Arab African slave trade of modern history.

    But Muslims use that exact same reason for why slavery was a fact if life then as well.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
    Why are you linking me this. People justified slavery in the slave trade by the Bible then they justified its abolition by the same Bible. Doesn't take away what I wrote in the previous post.
    The last half-dozen or so countries to abolish slavery are all Muslim-majority
    Do you count India in that? Whilst not slavery per se, the caste system is an evil abomination that often leads to de facto slavery.
    You are of course correct. De jure abolition was in 1843:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Slavery_Act,_1843

    Though there was also "indenturement" which was abolished in aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, in 1860.
    Do you see the caste system as an evil that essentially leads to slavery?
    One of the reasons why yours truly self-identifies as an atheist. Other reasons include reincarnation and astrology.
    A total non-answer.
    Why is it a non-answer? Why would I want to be part of a religion with a so-called "caste" "system"?
    Because caste is not just about religion and Hinduism - hence why some Christian Indian friends of ours were affected to a small degree. It's a cancer running throughout Indian society.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians

    A simple 'yes' or 'no' would have sufficed, but was seemingly beyond you. Not for the first time.
    When the UK government introduced anti-caste legislation there was quite a row in Birmingham between Sikh atheists (pro the new law) and Hindu atheists (anti the new law).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
    The point is Mr Sunil is that something happens and people automatically assume that its terror related, its a sort of knee jerk reaction.. like that guy with mental health problems who stabbed someone in London.

    These things often ARE terrorist related but its best to FIND OUT FIRST before screaming terrorist.
    Has anything with a bomb in a public place ever not been terrorist related?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    Calais camp: Sarkozy says UK must take responsibility

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37428424

    Alright, the French want to give Calais back to us!

    Oh, wait, no, it's the usual whining. I do love it though, as it is a handy reminder that politicians the world over love to grandstand when they are in campaigning mode.

    The wine producing bits around Bordeaux would be nice too!
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
    The point is Mr Sunil is that something happens and people automatically assume that its terror related, its a sort of knee jerk reaction.. like that guy with mental health problems who stabbed someone in London.

    These things often ARE terrorist related but its best to FIND OUT FIRST before screaming terrorist.
    Someone planted a skip bomb in a busy street. That's a terrorist attack.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph

    PPP North Carolina

    Trump 45
    Clinton 43
    Johnson 6
    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_NC_92116.pdf
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited September 2016

    Omnium said:

    It's hardly convincing stuff.

    "Professor Patrick Minford is one of the UK’s leading macroeconomists and holds the chair of Applied Economics at Cardiff University."

    It's just not true.

    I'll give him 'very good', maybe even 'outstanding', but 'leading'? He's not at Cardiff (sorry Cardiff) because he's unequivocally wonderful.

    Recent book in the article too? Complete coincidence.

    The economics may or may not be sound, but the politics is awful. What government is going to say to companies and workers 'Sorry, we are going to let all and sundry undercut you with zero tariffs, and, no, we're not going to insist that they give tariff-free access for your goods in their markets in return'?

    Ain't gonna happen. He's suggesting throwing away all negotiating power before we start. Even by his own calculations, it would wipe out manufacturing here.
    Well that was pretty much Cameron's policy for his term of government.

    He let workers wages slump through mass immigration and multinats paid bugger all tax.

    In return we got no progress on service single market and bigger bills to fund the EU.

    Blair did the same except he added no progress on CAP reform.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    weejonnie said:

    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph

    She's up three, ahead by three, or both?
    Ahead by 3 - these polls show the difference as most Democrats can't subtract.
    A bad poll for Clinton.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Dromedary said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
    The point is Mr Sunil is that something happens and people automatically assume that its terror related, its a sort of knee jerk reaction.. like that guy with mental health problems who stabbed someone in London.

    These things often ARE terrorist related but its best to FIND OUT FIRST before screaming terrorist.
    Someone planted a skip bomb in a busy street. That's a terrorist attack.
    Either that or someone with refusecontainerphobia. Of course jumping to the wrong conclusion as to which terrorists caused the attack can have serious political consequences.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2016
    Dromedary said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
    The point is Mr Sunil is that something happens and people automatically assume that its terror related, its a sort of knee jerk reaction.. like that guy with mental health problems who stabbed someone in London.

    These things often ARE terrorist related but its best to FIND OUT FIRST before screaming terrorist.
    Someone planted a skip bomb in a busy street. That's a terrorist attack.
    Yup but when it went off people didn't know initially what it was, it could have been an accidental propane cylinder going off .. Best to take a deep breath before saying terrorist or even have some FACTS,.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Senior,

    At the next local election, I will probably vote LD.

    I voted Leave so that makes me a bigot, but I don't see the point of voting Ukip now. Brexit is coming and Ukip is now a national party.

    But for local affairs, we can safely let the yellow peril back.

    Unless May takes the UK out of the single market and completely ends freedom of movement and immigration has fallen significantly by 2020 UKIP will still have a purpose for many Leave voters
    How exactly? Are UKIP going to unravel whatever deal gets agreed with the EU? Just how many folks do you think are going to risk letting in Corbyn for the sake of maybe getting a chance to have another nibble at the EU? Not many. Maybe a fringe with Surrey on top....
    It is not just some Tory voters who want a complete end to free movement post Brexit, many Leave voting Labour voters do too so fear of Corbyn is not really an issue
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    nunu said:

    weejonnie said:

    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #Wisconsin @MULawPoll (LV's):

    Clinton 41 (+3)
    Trump 38
    Johnson 11
    Stein 2

    https://t.co/TN5zFbFYph

    She's up three, ahead by three, or both?
    Ahead by 3 - these polls show the difference as most Democrats can't subtract.
    A bad poll for Clinton.
    But, as I said below - it's an old one. It is still bad as it covered the period before the Hillary Hobble.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    ABC
    US Attorney Preet Bharara: Evidence shows NY bombing a "premeditated act of terrorism" https://t.co/lUZAMfs2m8 https://t.co/v6WOMF6gLt

    Well you would be. You had already decided it was a terrorist attack as have/had so many others when these sorts of things have proved to be nothing of the kind.
    Has there ever been a "non-premeditated" terror attack?
    The point is Mr Sunil is that something happens and people automatically assume that its terror related, its a sort of knee jerk reaction.. like that guy with mental health problems who stabbed someone in London.

    These things often ARE terrorist related but its best to FIND OUT FIRST before screaming terrorist.
    Has anything with a bomb in a public place ever not been terrorist related?
    When there was an explosion, how certain was it at that moment that it was a bomb?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited September 2016
    kle4 said:

    Calais camp: Sarkozy says UK must take responsibility

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37428424

    Alright, the French want to give Calais back to us!

    Oh, wait, no, it's the usual whining. I do love it though, as it is a handy reminder that politicians the world over love to grandstand when they are in campaigning mode.

    Sarkozy is also threatening to completely overhaul Schengen
    https://www.ft.com/content/aa006380-3397-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153

    The latest poll for the LR nomination has Sarkozy and Juppe tied on 37% each in round 1 and Juppe ahead by just 52% to 48% in round 2. If Sarkozy wins the nomination he will likely be Le Pen's opponent in the run-off and probably return to the Elysee
    http://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2016/09/Rapport-Harris-Intentions-de-vote-à-la-primaire-de-la-droite-et-du-centre-France-TV.pdf

    Hollande also leads Montebourg by just 32% to 30% in round 1 of the Socialist Primary
    http://www.ifop.com/media/poll/3465-1-study_file.pdf
This discussion has been closed.