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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on WH2016 & Witney plus prospects for a “LD fightba

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on WH2016 & Witney plus prospects for a “LD fightback”- all looked at in latest PB/Polling Matters TV Show/ Podcast

With the first WH2016 TV debate due to take place next Monday Keiran Pedley (@KeiranPedley), Matthew Shaddick (@Shadsy) of Ladbrokes, and Leo Barasi (@leobarasi ) look at where the race stands and what the mass of polling is suggesting. In the UK the team look at the LDs who’ve just finished their conference and try to assess the chances of a fightback.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,249
    First like Corbo?
  • John Mann article. Top stuff. Definitely worth a read.
  • Although Mann makes no mention of Ed Balls. I may be going bonkers, but I personally think he is someone to keep an eye on wrt bets. Making some very interesting moves (and not just on the dance floor).
  • Mortimer said:

    First like Corbo?

    Not sure why you need a question mark there :-)
  • Keiran looking slightly ghetto there.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,249
    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190
    Seventh like UkIp
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,484
    edited September 2016
    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
  • FPT
    IanB2 said:
    Labour loves staying inside its comfort zone, battling for irrelevant positions, talking to itself, sympathising with those living in poverty, articulating outrage. But it is terrified of the working class because it might say things they don't want to hear.

    emphasis added

    Thanks - excellent read.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 51,003

    Although Mann makes no mention of Ed Balls. I may be going bonkers, but I personally think he is someone to keep an eye on wrt bets. Making some very interesting moves (and not just on the dance floor).

    If Balls becomes a Marxist he might well have a chance!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,844
    edited September 2016
    From Ashcroft's book:

    "From the beginning, the Remain camp found it difficult to make a positive case for staying in Europe.

    Cooper remembers asking several key figures in the campaign to name the five most powerful facts showing the UK was better off staying in. ‘They struggled to come up with any,’ he recalls."

    And then some prat timetabled the Referendum for a couple of weeks after the immigration numbers were to be released.

    Gongs all round!


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801172/From-cocky-jokes-calamity-Dave-s-big-gamble-blew-face-Told-newly-updated-biography-inside-story-Cameron-s-downfall-LORD-ASHCROFT-ISABEL-OAKESHOTT.html#ixzz4KyCfyPPI
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    As @computerweekly turns 50, editor @bryanglick reveals how it learned to thrive in the digital age https://t.co/Zh4UIKbxng https://t.co/RT1jUkOcI8
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Hmm

    Dead thug #KeithLamontScott was previously charged with carrying a concealed weapon, and assault with a deadly weapon. #CharlotteProtests
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    If you missed MidLifeMason parody twitter.com account - it's a hoot

    Life goals https://t.co/ZM5ZeRtnbd
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 16,989
    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,847

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,238
    edited September 2016
    Pep back to his old tricks, Man City implicated in recruiting players younger than 16 from overseas. Could end in a transfer ban like it did for Barca, Real and Athletico.
  • Mr. F, quite.

    Caesar committed a holocaust [I use the precise word TA Dodge uses, writing around 1900], killing half a million Germanian tribesmen who were trying to negotiate a peace deal.

    Alexander pacified a rebellion in Bactria and Sogdiana (modern day Afghanistan, roughly) by killing most of the people there.

    Imposing modern moral and legal norms on the past is drunken madness, the sort of tosh that leads people to beg for money because their ancestors got the rough end of the stick. Perhaps I should pay myself reparations, as I have Viking, Saxon and Celtic ancestors.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,238
    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Sean, in my experience it is the same group that find everything offensive. They live in a perpetual state of outrage.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin.

    Only numpties could find something contentious about them.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,844
    IanB2 said:
    This was very telling about Brexit:

    "Very few MPs actually knocked on doors in the referendum. Hence the shock at the result."
  • RobDRobD Posts: 36,065
    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It is not only said on here, far from it.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Yeah - I want the statues of Gandhi and Mandela removed. Bloody trouble makers! ;-)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,373
    edited September 2016
    Deleted.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Indeed – take that St George chap, killed an endangered species.. #thebastard
  • Mr. Bob, 'pre-prepared'. 'Learn the lessons'. There must be others.

    Virtue-signalling's a handy phrase for those prancing about on the horse of self-righteousness, parading their own moral superiority. It's also useful for explaining the shy Conservative vote, as people generally were wary of expressing themselves openly for fear of being castigated.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    FPT

    IanB2 said:
    Labour loves staying inside its comfort zone, battling for irrelevant positions, talking to itself, sympathising with those living in poverty, articulating outrage. But it is terrified of the working class because it might say things they don't want to hear.

    emphasis added

    Thanks - excellent read.
    Mann has not a shred of evidence that Tories voted Remain en masse and Labourites voted Leave. He is making that up.
  • TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.

    I have a feeling a deal will be done with EIRE where Dublin hosts aspects of financial services firms that have to be based inside the single market/eurozone, but still English speaking, and a stronger more symbiotic relationship with London as the primary global finance centre. U.K. might pump up the London-Dublin transport links (rail/road/sea) via Pembroke/Holyhead.

    In exchange, EIRE will cooperate on customs and migration.
  • http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-21/deplorables-who-we-are-and-what-we-want

    I think that PC has had its day and a new normal will emerge. Maybe Brexit has burst a bit of a bubble and we can return to having open unbounded discussions about things without one side feeling its OK to drown out the other.
  • Mr. Patrick, maybe. The battle between iconoclasts and iconodules went on rather a long time, though.

    I hope you're right.
  • Mr. Bob, 'pre-prepared'. 'Learn the lessons'. There must be others.

    Virtue-signalling's a handy phrase for those prancing about on the horse of self-righteousness, parading their own moral superiority. It's also useful for explaining the shy Conservative vote, as people generally were wary of expressing themselves openly for fear of being castigated.

    "... prancing about on the horse of self-righteousness, parading their own moral superiority" applies just as much to Brexiters. In fact, it applies to many (most?) people.

    An example on here are the 'crime corespondents'.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190
    Jobabob said:

    FPT

    IanB2 said:
    Labour loves staying inside its comfort zone, battling for irrelevant positions, talking to itself, sympathising with those living in poverty, articulating outrage. But it is terrified of the working class because it might say things they don't want to hear.

    emphasis added

    Thanks - excellent read.
    Mann has not a shred of evidence that Tories voted Remain en masse and Labourites voted Leave. He is making that up.
    He is referring to ballot box sampling - something I have done many times - which can't tell you how individual people voted. What he is suggesting is that within areas it was the more 'leafy' or middle class (or 'Tory', in Lab-speak) polling districts that were more for remain with the housing estates more for leave. I didn't do any sampling at the referendum so can't add any evidence, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in what he says.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Sean, in my experience it is the same group that find everything offensive. They live in a perpetual state of outrage.
    Imagine how exhausting it is...

    There's a simpering news lady on Sky who's always trying to handwring/be conciliatory/yummy and I find her really annoying. Not looking forward to life after Eamonn.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Indeed – take that St George chap, killed an endangered species.. #thebastard
    Well Saint George was a Jonny Foreigner, you'd expect that sort of behaviour from foreigners, now if he had been an Englishman, he would never have done that.

    Let's take back control and make Saint Edmund our patron saint once more.
  • MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Increasing convinced the last section on Today each day is designed to rile.

    Gandhi must fall? What a load of total and utter tosh.

    The natural logic of the RhodesMustFall movement is that it ends with the removal of all statues of any historic figure who ever did something that a highly vocal group find objectionable, no matter what the context or other merits.

    For instance, Churchill in Parliament Square because of his advocacy of bombing the Kurds in the 20s/30s, or his scepticism towards new Commonwealth immigration after the war.
    It's hard to think of a single historical figure of any significance, who did not say or do something that some group would not find contentious today.
    Sean, in my experience it is the same group that find everything offensive. They live in a perpetual state of outrage.
    UKIPpers? ;)
  • IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    FPT

    IanB2 said:
    Labour loves staying inside its comfort zone, battling for irrelevant positions, talking to itself, sympathising with those living in poverty, articulating outrage. But it is terrified of the working class because it might say things they don't want to hear.

    emphasis added

    Thanks - excellent read.
    Mann has not a shred of evidence that Tories voted Remain en masse and Labourites voted Leave. He is making that up.
    He is referring to ballot box sampling - something I have done many times - which can't tell you how individual people voted. What he is suggesting is that within areas it was the more 'leafy' or middle class (or 'Tory', in Lab-speak) polling districts that were more for remain with the housing estates more for leave. I didn't do any sampling at the referendum so can't add any evidence, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in what he says.
    But is he talking about Bassetlaw only?
  • glwglw Posts: 4,822

    This was very telling about Brexit:

    "Very few MPs actually knocked on doors in the referendum. Hence the shock at the result."

    I wonder if we will be reading similar things next spring about the Presidential election?

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 16,989

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.

    I have a feeling a deal will be done with EIRE where Dublin hosts aspects of financial services firms that have to be based inside the single market/eurozone, but still English speaking, and a stronger more symbiotic relationship with London as the primary global finance centre. U.K. might pump up the London-Dublin transport links (rail/road/sea) via Pembroke/Holyhead.

    In exchange, EIRE will cooperate on customs and migration.
    Would make a lot of sense. I think that more likely than a euro derivs market in London (although I haven't seen the Moody's paper, but how do they hedge?).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,075
    edited September 2016
    Mr. Jessop, if I were a terrorist, I could've killed you all :D

    It is fair to say that being blinkered and self-righteous isn't the sole preserve of one part of society, but it's undeniable that more of it happens on the left than right, simply because the left is more emotional [which is also, probably, why it's better at using language and why it's often considered more acceptable to have leftwing views].

    On the old EU business, there are dicks on both sides.

    Edited extra bit: also, the left are more likely than the right to buy into both identity politics and internationalism over national interests.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190
    edited September 2016

    Mr. F, quite.

    Caesar committed a holocaust [I use the precise word TA Dodge uses, writing around 1900], killing half a million Germanian tribesmen who were trying to negotiate a peace deal.

    Alexander pacified a rebellion in Bactria and Sogdiana (modern day Afghanistan, roughly) by killing most of the people there.

    Imposing modern moral and legal norms on the past is drunken madness, the sort of tosh that leads people to beg for money because their ancestors got the rough end of the stick. Perhaps I should pay myself reparations, as I have Viking, Saxon and Celtic ancestors.


    Boudicca burned down London, yet has her statue outside the Commons. OK she burned down Colchester too, making space for the ring road and shopping centre, but that is hardly much by way of mitigation.
  • Mr. Eagles, in my forthcoming and splendid book Kingdom Asunder, I used a white dragon as the crest of Penmere largely because of the old English white dragon.

    Mr. B2, be fair. London was mostly Roman. Those foreigners had invaded our safe space. That's even worse than a micro-aggression.
  • Mr. Jessop, if I were a terrorist, I could've killed you all :D

    It is fair to say that being blinkered and self-righteous isn't the sole preserve of one part of society, but it's undeniable that more of it happens on the left than right, simply because the left is more emotional [which is also, probably, why it's better at using language and why it's often considered more acceptable to have leftwing views].

    On the old EU business, there are dicks on both sides.

    Or perhaps you might see more of it on the left because you are (slightly) more right-wing than left-wing, and therefore agree with more of the right-wing POVs?

    As for the left being more emotional, just look at the staunch Europhobes.

    If there is a difference, then it might be that the left-wingers are more likely to take to the streets and be noisy. That might be because they don't have jobs to go to unlike the rest of us

    Ooops, that's me being blinekred and self righteous. Hypocritical as well, as I'm not working. :)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,234
    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It says more about the people using it than their targets. What they are actually implying is, they aren't virtuous, I am.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,847

    Mr. F, quite.

    Caesar committed a holocaust [I use the precise word TA Dodge uses, writing around 1900], killing half a million Germanian tribesmen who were trying to negotiate a peace deal.

    Alexander pacified a rebellion in Bactria and Sogdiana (modern day Afghanistan, roughly) by killing most of the people there.

    Imposing modern moral and legal norms on the past is drunken madness, the sort of tosh that leads people to beg for money because their ancestors got the rough end of the stick. Perhaps I should pay myself reparations, as I have Viking, Saxon and Celtic ancestors.

    Plenty even of those we consider the good guys said and did things that would be considered wrong today. Abraham Lincoln was a racist; FDR overthrew unfriendly governments in Central America; Gladstone's government criminalised homosexuality; etc. But then, many things we take for granted will be seen as stupid or immoral in the future, perhaps even in our own lifetimes.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.

    I have a feeling a deal will be done with EIRE where Dublin hosts aspects of financial services firms that have to be based inside the single market/eurozone, but still English speaking, and a stronger more symbiotic relationship with London as the primary global finance centre. U.K. might pump up the London-Dublin transport links (rail/road/sea) via Pembroke/Holyhead.

    In exchange, EIRE will cooperate on customs and migration.
    Would make a lot of sense. I think that more likely than a euro derivs market in London (although I haven't seen the Moody's paper, but how do they hedge?).
    I haven't seen it either. I'm following the politics and I find it interesting that David Davis and Theresa May have prioritised visits to EIRE in recent weeks.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. F, quite.

    Caesar committed a holocaust [I use the precise word TA Dodge uses, writing around 1900], killing half a million Germanian tribesmen who were trying to negotiate a peace deal.

    Alexander pacified a rebellion in Bactria and Sogdiana (modern day Afghanistan, roughly) by killing most of the people there.

    Imposing modern moral and legal norms on the past is drunken madness, the sort of tosh that leads people to beg for money because their ancestors got the rough end of the stick. Perhaps I should pay myself reparations, as I have Viking, Saxon and Celtic ancestors.

    Plenty even of those we consider the good guys said and did things that would be considered wrong today. Abraham Lincoln was a racist; FDR overthrew unfriendly governments in Central America; Gladstone's government criminalised homosexuality; etc. But then, many things we take for granted will be seen as stupid or immoral in the future, perhaps even in our own lifetimes.
    Such as the European Union ;-)
  • Mr. Jessop, oh, aye, there are some headbanging nutcases in the blue corner.

    I'd argue that the problem vis-a-vis right and left is that the right is happier to see the all the guilty condemned if that means some innocents being caught, and the left is happier to see all the innocent untroubled if that means some guilty chaps getting a free ride.

    [I use guilt/innocence broadly, of course].

    We see it with Corbyn, taken to a fine degree. Those who have a differing view aren't merely of a varying opinion, by virtue of not agreeing with the most left of perspectives, they're inherently wicked. Not merely wrong, but bad.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    FPT

    IanB2 said:
    Labour loves staying inside its comfort zone, battling for irrelevant positions, talking to itself, sympathising with those living in poverty, articulating outrage. But it is terrified of the working class because it might say things they don't want to hear.

    emphasis added

    Thanks - excellent read.
    Mann has not a shred of evidence that Tories voted Remain en masse and Labourites voted Leave. He is making that up.
    He is referring to ballot box sampling - something I have done many times - which can't tell you how individual people voted. What he is suggesting is that within areas it was the more 'leafy' or middle class (or 'Tory', in Lab-speak) polling districts that were more for remain with the housing estates more for leave. I didn't do any sampling at the referendum so can't add any evidence, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in what he says.
    But is he talking about Bassetlaw only?
    He is making a general comment, which might be based on shared experience but, like many politicians, is probably an extrapolation based on his local experience. Nevertheless similar voting patterns do crop up in similar areas, and extrapolation from a small sample is reasonable (as the basis, of course, of all opinion polling).
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Matthew Bailey
    'Free speech under attack' - The Times on 'an alien' turn in political discourse in the Labour Party, 35 years ago today. https://t.co/bK3qqDkVRr
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,844
    Patrick said:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-21/deplorables-who-we-are-and-what-we-want

    I think that PC has had its day and a new normal will emerge. Maybe Brexit has burst a bit of a bubble and we can return to having open unbounded discussions about things without one side feeling its OK to drown out the other.

    Good to see Ken Livingstone signing up to your view. No risk of him being drowned out about Hitler....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,847

    Mr. Jessop, if I were a terrorist, I could've killed you all :D

    It is fair to say that being blinkered and self-righteous isn't the sole preserve of one part of society, but it's undeniable that more of it happens on the left than right, simply because the left is more emotional [which is also, probably, why it's better at using language and why it's often considered more acceptable to have leftwing views].

    On the old EU business, there are dicks on both sides.

    Or perhaps you might see more of it on the left because you are (slightly) more right-wing than left-wing, and therefore agree with more of the right-wing POVs?

    As for the left being more emotional, just look at the staunch Europhobes.

    If there is a difference, then it might be that the left-wingers are more likely to take to the streets and be noisy. That might be because they don't have jobs to go to unlike the rest of us

    Ooops, that's me being blinekred and self righteous. Hypocritical as well, as I'm not working. :)
    The self-righteous left are probably more able to enforce their moral views than the self-righteous right are because more of them are in positions of authority.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    @RobD @CarlottaVance

    I didn't say it didn't appear elsewhere on the internet, I said I had never heard it in speech. It's awful internet patois - not English. The new "colour me..." - please give over.
  • Patrick said:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-21/deplorables-who-we-are-and-what-we-want

    I think that PC has had its day and a new normal will emerge. Maybe Brexit has burst a bit of a bubble and we can return to having open unbounded discussions about things without one side feeling its OK to drown out the other.

    If it puts an end to righties whining about being gagged and censored while endlessly expounding their world view, that can only be a good thing.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,196

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.

    I have a feeling a deal will be done with EIRE where Dublin hosts aspects of financial services firms that have to be based inside the single market/eurozone, but still English speaking, and a stronger more symbiotic relationship with London as the primary global finance centre. U.K. might pump up the London-Dublin transport links (rail/road/sea) via Pembroke/Holyhead.

    In exchange, EIRE will cooperate on customs and migration.
    Would make a lot of sense. I think that more likely than a euro derivs market in London (although I haven't seen the Moody's paper, but how do they hedge?).
    I haven't seen it either. I'm following the politics and I find it interesting that David Davis and Theresa May have prioritised visits to EIRE in recent weeks.
    I think that will be more to do with the Northern Ireland Peace Process rather than any City implications.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Bassetlaw is not typical of the UK as a whole. Polling vs John Mann anecdote.
  • Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 16,989
    Jobabob said:

    @RobD @CarlottaVance

    I didn't say it didn't appear elsewhere on the internet, I said I had never heard it in speech. It's awful internet patois - not English. The new "colour me..." - please give over.

    ...me duck.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Fox
    Trump is helped by strong support from working-class white voters, while Clinton is hurt by a lackluster performance among younger voters and women.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/09/21/fox-news-poll-trump-tops-clinton-in-battlegrounds-nevada-n-carolina-ohio.html
  • Mr. Jessop, oh, aye, there are some headbanging nutcases in the blue corner.

    I'd argue that the problem vis-a-vis right and left is that the right is happier to see the all the guilty condemned if that means some innocents being caught, and the left is happier to see all the innocent untroubled if that means some guilty chaps getting a free ride.

    [I use guilt/innocence broadly, of course].

    We see it with Corbyn, taken to a fine degree. Those who have a differing view aren't merely of a varying opinion, by virtue of not agreeing with the most left of perspectives, they're inherently wicked. Not merely wrong, but bad.

    I think that's a fairy good summation. However your last paragraph also applies to the right-wing, who (as an example) are happy to lambast anyone who might try to put in a good word for immigration and/or multiculturism. Anyone doing so is mad, wrong and bad, however good their point is.

    We also see it about the EU: some will hear no bad about it, and some no good. As such, the debate gets polarised by ridiculous claims where the truth often lies in the middle ground.

    In some ways, Corbyn's ascendance might be a direct reaction to UKIP: as some have turned to the middle- and far-right, so some on the left have moved far to the left. As such, British politics' see-saw remains, as ever, well-balanced. :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190
    JonathanD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.

    I have a feeling a deal will be done with EIRE where Dublin hosts aspects of financial services firms that have to be based inside the single market/eurozone, but still English speaking, and a stronger more symbiotic relationship with London as the primary global finance centre. U.K. might pump up the London-Dublin transport links (rail/road/sea) via Pembroke/Holyhead.

    In exchange, EIRE will cooperate on customs and migration.
    Would make a lot of sense. I think that more likely than a euro derivs market in London (although I haven't seen the Moody's paper, but how do they hedge?).
    I haven't seen it either. I'm following the politics and I find it interesting that David Davis and Theresa May have prioritised visits to EIRE in recent weeks.
    I think that will be more to do with the Northern Ireland Peace Process rather than any City implications.
    And the related matter that the EU is a legal guarantor and party to the Good Friday Agreement.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 22,305

    Mr. Jessop, oh, aye, there are some headbanging nutcases in the blue corner.

    I'd argue that the problem vis-a-vis right and left is that the right is happier to see the all the guilty condemned if that means some innocents being caught, and the left is happier to see all the innocent untroubled if that means some guilty chaps getting a free ride.

    [I use guilt/innocence broadly, of course].

    We see it with Corbyn, taken to a fine degree. Those who have a differing view aren't merely of a varying opinion, by virtue of not agreeing with the most left of perspectives, they're inherently wicked. Not merely wrong, but bad.

    The right responds to crimes of action. The left priortises motives/thought crime

    It's the difference between doing wrong and being wrong.
  • Mr. Bob, 'pre-prepared'. 'Learn the lessons'. There must be others.

    Virtue-signalling's a handy phrase for those prancing about on the horse of self-righteousness, parading their own moral superiority. It's also useful for explaining the shy Conservative vote, as people generally were wary of expressing themselves openly for fear of being castigated.

    "... prancing about on the horse of self-righteousness, parading their own moral superiority" applies just as much to Brexiters. In fact, it applies to many (most?) people.

    .
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
    Yes I'd sssumed that that was the childish reason it was used. Thanks for confirming!
  • Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
    Yes I'd sssumed that that was the childish reason it was used. Thanks for confirming!
    Personally I think sanctimonious does the job perfectly well.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Jessop, if I were a terrorist, I could've killed you all :D

    It is fair to say that being blinkered and self-righteous isn't the sole preserve of one part of society, but it's undeniable that more of it happens on the left than right, simply because the left is more emotional [which is also, probably, why it's better at using language and why it's often considered more acceptable to have leftwing views].

    On the old EU business, there are dicks on both sides.

    Or perhaps you might see more of it on the left because you are (slightly) more right-wing than left-wing, and therefore agree with more of the right-wing POVs?

    As for the left being more emotional, just look at the staunch Europhobes.

    If there is a difference, then it might be that the left-wingers are more likely to take to the streets and be noisy. That might be because they don't have jobs to go to unlike the rest of us

    Ooops, that's me being blinekred and self righteous. Hypocritical as well, as I'm not working. :)
    The self-righteous left are probably more able to enforce their moral views than the self-righteous right are because more of them are in positions of authority.
    You might be right at that; on the other hand, it might be that the self-righteous right are generally in certain positions of authority (e.g. in the private sector), whilst the self-righteous left are in others that are more pubic facing, e.g. the public sector.
  • JonathanD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Back on Brexit, eh?

    Interesting news from Lloyds. They've been doing some planning.

    Depending on outcomes they might need one office in the EU, or 27. Staff will be recruited locally or sent to those offices. Cost might be up to 4% of revenue/profit (didn't hear which) but households unlikely to notice in terms of premia (!).

    Exactly corresponds with my view that we will be in an imperceptibly worse position than previously. But a worse position nevertheless.

    Of course we might get passporting, that said.

    I have a feeling a deal will be done with EIRE where Dublin hosts aspects of financial services firms that have to be based inside the single market/eurozone, but still English speaking, and a stronger more symbiotic relationship with London as the primary global finance centre. U.K. might pump up the London-Dublin transport links (rail/road/sea) via Pembroke/Holyhead.

    In exchange, EIRE will cooperate on customs and migration.
    Would make a lot of sense. I think that more likely than a euro derivs market in London (although I haven't seen the Moody's paper, but how do they hedge?).
    I haven't seen it either. I'm following the politics and I find it interesting that David Davis and Theresa May have prioritised visits to EIRE in recent weeks.
    I think that will be more to do with the Northern Ireland Peace Process rather than any City implications.
    I expect both subjects came up.

    Money talks.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
    An easy right-and left of tyson and Jobabob, then:

    virtue-signalling :lol:
  • Jobabob said:

    @RobD @CarlottaVance

    I didn't say it didn't appear elsewhere on the internet, I said I had never heard it in speech. It's awful internet patois - not English. The new "colour me..." - please give over.

    Pet
  • Mr. Charles, an interesting suggestion.

    Also plays into trying to close down 'wrong speech' and having such stupid finickity terms that Benedict Cumberbatch, not renowned for being a raging right winger, apologised profusely after saying 'coloured person' rather than 'person of colour'.

    Mr. Jessop, jein. An issue with immigration/multi-culturalism is that sensitivity over it has led in the recent past to multiple claims [eventually proven correct] of sexual molestation of children simply not being investigated, and those against large scale migration being attacked as racist. So, right wingers being strident over such things have an understandable reaction to that.

    Whilst not in favour of the EU, I agree it's not wholly black or white, though I think it's mostly horrendous, and the economic gains [if there are any] more than off-set by loss of democratic accountability and freedom to determine our own course.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,484
    edited September 2016
    Jobabob said:

    @RobD @CarlottaVance

    I didn't say it didn't appear elsewhere on the internet, I said I had never heard it in speech. It's awful internet patois - not English. The new "colour me..." - please give over.

    A lot it about though. Had a company do last night focussed on "dreaming big" for 2025 where - on presenting back to the 30-40 in the room, including the Board - feminism came up (talent not trousers) Brexit, and doing everything we can to bring migrants in.

    I bit my tongue. Largely.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    LA times poll has Trump with +2.4, and with 5.2% of the black vote.

    Definite swing toward Hillary being picked up there.
  • Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, oh, aye, there are some headbanging nutcases in the blue corner.

    I'd argue that the problem vis-a-vis right and left is that the right is happier to see the all the guilty condemned if that means some innocents being caught, and the left is happier to see all the innocent untroubled if that means some guilty chaps getting a free ride.

    [I use guilt/innocence broadly, of course].

    We see it with Corbyn, taken to a fine degree. Those who have a differing view aren't merely of a varying opinion, by virtue of not agreeing with the most left of perspectives, they're inherently wicked. Not merely wrong, but bad.

    The right responds to crimes of action. The left priortises motives/thought crime

    It's the difference between doing wrong and being wrong.
    The left believes the right are bad people

    The right believes the left have bad ideas

    Gross generalisation of course etc. etc. but a nugget of truth in there....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,418
    Jobabob said:

    Bassetlaw is not typical of the UK as a whole. Polling vs John Mann anecdote.

    John Mann’s hypothesis is very reasonable, and it is easy to get evidence to support it.

    In Wales, every Welsh Labour seat voted Leave, except for Cardiff.

    The Remain areas were Ceredigion (LibDem), Monmouthshire/Vale of Glamorgan (both Tory),
    Arfon/Dwyfor Meirionnydd (both PC).

    Bassetlaw is much more typical of the rest of England & Wales than the London constituency of Jobabob Central.

    The EU created many more losers than winners. And most of the losers were already poor.
  • Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, oh, aye, there are some headbanging nutcases in the blue corner.

    I'd argue that the problem vis-a-vis right and left is that the right is happier to see the all the guilty condemned if that means some innocents being caught, and the left is happier to see all the innocent untroubled if that means some guilty chaps getting a free ride.

    [I use guilt/innocence broadly, of course].

    We see it with Corbyn, taken to a fine degree. Those who have a differing view aren't merely of a varying opinion, by virtue of not agreeing with the most left of perspectives, they're inherently wicked. Not merely wrong, but bad.

    The right responds to crimes of action. The left priortises motives/thought crime

    It's the difference between doing wrong and being wrong.
    The left believes the right are bad people

    The right believes the left have bad ideas

    (Snip)
    Whilst both believe that liberals are a joke. ;)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 4,889
    Jobabob said:

    Bassetlaw is not typical of the UK as a whole. Polling vs John Mann anecdote.

    My highly marginal area of Newham voted 52-48 for REMAIN (my local MP Stephen Timms is barely hanging on to his 34,000 majority). Given the overwhelming majority of those who vote at GE and local contests vote Labour, we can assume plenty of Labour supporters voted both REMAIN and LEAVE (no, not at the same time) so it's hardly monolithic.

    As to what the much smaller numbers of Conservative, Liberal Democrat, UKIP and Green voters did, I've no way of knowing and frankly it doesn't matter but there's evidence that other parties were split as well. It's one of those ridiculous myths (like the 1997 election being all about Conservatives staying at home) that become accepted if not challenged quickly.

    As to whether the 2016 Referendum will have the same profound consequences that the 1975 Referendum did for Labour, that remains to be seen. As to whether the 2016 Referendum is the 21st century equivalent of tariff reform for the Conservatives, that also remains to be seen.

    Three months on and a lot of people seem to have decided the whole event is history - far from it, the ramifications of June 23rd have barely started.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 43,800
    Ch4 paid millions of pounds (taxpayer money) for a tent

    @BBCBreaking: UK TV cook Mary Berry quits Great British Bake Off, saying she will stay with the BBC out of "loyalty" bbc.in/2cSTMQG
  • Mary Berry won't be joining Channel 4 for the GBBO.

    It's the end of the world as we know it.
  • As a 'right winger' (right and left aren't really satisfactory categorisations to me), I think left wingers are deeply misguided on the solutions to societies ills - often (to me) bizarrely pig-headedly so, in the face of manifold evidence. However, I don't think that being left wing is the result of a moral deficiency. That's the difference. Left wingers to a man insist that right wingers must be callous and malevolent and enjoy causing suffering. We are not - we want to achieve broadly the same rather banal and innoffensive things that most left wingers want - peace, plenty, etc., but have different beliefs about how to get them.
  • Mr. Charles, an interesting suggestion.

    Also plays into trying to close down 'wrong speech' and having such stupid finickity terms that Benedict Cumberbatch, not renowned for being a raging right winger, apologised profusely after saying 'coloured person' rather than 'person of colour'.

    Mr. Jessop, jein. An issue with immigration/multi-culturalism is that sensitivity over it has led in the recent past to multiple claims [eventually proven correct] of sexual molestation of children simply not being investigated, and those against large scale migration being attacked as racist. So, right wingers being strident over such things have an understandable reaction to that. (Snip)

    Left-wingers reaction to things are equally understandable, e.g. to racism and homophobia.

    Some of the reaction to the awful cases in Rotherham, Oxford et al has been racist, especially when people extend what happened to broad groups. Not all of it, of course, but there has been a heavy undercurrent of racism. Oddly, we do not see such reactions when it is the churches, or white people performing abuses. Or even when it is Muslim girls being abused - it is only the white girls that matter (tm).
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    As a 'right winger' (right and left aren't really satisfactory categorisations to me), I think left wingers are deeply misguided on the solutions to societies ills - often (to me) bizarrely pig-headedly so, in the face of manifold evidence. However, I don't think that being left wing is the result of a moral deficiency. That's the difference. Left wingers to a man insist that right wingers must be callous and malevolent and enjoy causing suffering. We are not - we want to achieve broadly the same rather banal and innoffensive things that most left wingers want - peace, plenty, etc., but have different beliefs about how to get them.

    The better-off right wing votes to preserve its assets and reduce its tax burden, with any other benefits being strictly collateral to the main aim.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
    Yes I'd sssumed that that was the childish reason it was used. Thanks for confirming!
    Personally I think sanctimonious does the job perfectly well.
    Indeed. Quite so. Why use nerdy internet garbage-speak when we have a perfectly good word in English?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Scott_P said:

    Ch4 paid millions of pounds (taxpayer money) for a tent

    @BBCBreaking: UK TV cook Mary Berry quits Great British Bake Off, saying she will stay with the BBC out of "loyalty" bbc.in/2cSTMQG

    Any decent negotiator would have insisted on a lock-in for the presenters. As you suggest, the stars are the show - not a load of ovens and a few whisks.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    619 said:

    LA times poll has Trump with +2.4, and with 5.2% of the black vote.

    Definite swing toward Hillary being picked up there.

    Polling moving back towards Hillary. Even Fox had her -2 in NC, which she does not need...
  • As a 'right winger' (right and left aren't really satisfactory categorisations to me), I think left wingers are deeply misguided on the solutions to societies ills - often (to me) bizarrely pig-headedly so, in the face of manifold evidence. However, I don't think that being left wing is the result of a moral deficiency. That's the difference. Left wingers to a man insist that right wingers must be callous and malevolent and enjoy causing suffering. We are not - we want to achieve broadly the same rather banal and innoffensive things that most left wingers want - peace, plenty, etc., but have different beliefs about how to get them.

    " Left wingers to a man insist that right wingers must be callous and malevolent and enjoy causing suffering."

    LOL. You really need to get out more.
  • Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
    Yes I'd sssumed that that was the childish reason it was used. Thanks for confirming!
    Personally I think sanctimonious does the job perfectly well.
    Indeed. Quite so. Why use nerdy internet garbage-speak when we have a perfectly good word in English?
    Because it doesn't mean the same thing?

    Virtue Signalling: Saying you love or hate something to show off what a virtuous person you are, instead of actually trying to fix the problem. (Urban Dictionary)

    Sanctimonious: Holier-than-thou: Making an exaggerated show of holiness or moral superiority. ibid.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190

    As a 'right winger' (right and left aren't really satisfactory categorisations to me), I think left wingers are deeply misguided on the solutions to societies ills - often (to me) bizarrely pig-headedly so, in the face of manifold evidence. However, I don't think that being left wing is the result of a moral deficiency. That's the difference. Left wingers to a man insist that right wingers must be callous and malevolent and enjoy causing suffering. We are not - we want to achieve broadly the same rather banal and innoffensive things that most left wingers want - peace, plenty, etc., but have different beliefs about how to get them.

    I would suggest it is the balance between concern about misdeeds and concern about misfortune.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,822
    Jobabob said:

    Any decent negotiator would have insisted on a lock-in for the presenters. As you suggest, the stars are the show - not a load of ovens and a few whisks.

    Hmmm that sounds like something we heard before but that fell on deaf ears.

  • Mr. Bob, sanctimonious is quite a nice word, must be said.

    Mr. Jessop, I feel that's an unfair view. Church abuse tends to be white on white. The Rotherham abuse (incidentally, a third of victims were boys) was almost exclusively Pakistani men on whites, some of whom were taunted as 'kaffirs'. The racial aspect only applies in one instance.

    When a Polish man was recently murdered there was an outcry about racism, before it emerged the gang that apparently did it is of mixed race. The outcry over Rotherham took decades of ignored pleas for help. The former was mistaken, it seems, the latter was not.
  • If this lad is being constrained by the authoritarian liberal elite, I'd hate/love to hear the uncensored stuff.


  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Jobabob said:

    619 said:

    LA times poll has Trump with +2.4, and with 5.2% of the black vote.

    Definite swing toward Hillary being picked up there.

    Polling moving back towards Hillary. Even Fox had her -2 in NC, which she does not need...
    But Trump seems to be holding up in the Swing states (And I make it Trump +5 in NC, Ohio and +3 in Nevada by Fox). This latest black rioting and Trump suggesting Stop & Search as a means of reducing crime may cost him votes in Florida, though.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Is there anymore annoying phrase than "virtue signalling" - I have never heard a normal person utter it, yet read it often on here. Please, please, stop it.

    It annoyies lefties? Good, I shall use it more then.
    Yes I'd sssumed that that was the childish reason it was used. Thanks for confirming!
    Personally I think sanctimonious does the job perfectly well.
    Indeed. Quite so. Why use nerdy internet garbage-speak when we have a perfectly good word in English?
    Because it doesn't mean the same thing?

    Virtue Signalling: Saying you love or hate something to show off what a virtuous person you are, instead of actually trying to fix the problem. (Urban Dictionary)

    Sanctimonious: Holier-than-thou: Making an exaggerated show of holiness or moral superiority. ibid.
    Virtue signalling doesn't meant ANYTHING to most normal people. It exists only as a weird internet phrase.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,139
    IanB2 said:


    I would suggest it is the balance between concern about misdeeds and concern about misfortune.

    If someone has committed a misdemeanour, they should be punished.
    If someone has misfortune, let them be aided.
  • Jobabob said:
    If you move in circles of kindred spirits that would not surprise me.

    You may, of course, have witnessed it without realising.....or indeed done it yourself....

    Ever wore a 'Never Kissed a Tory' badge?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,139
    weejonnie said:

    Jobabob said:

    619 said:

    LA times poll has Trump with +2.4, and with 5.2% of the black vote.

    Definite swing toward Hillary being picked up there.

    Polling moving back towards Hillary. Even Fox had her -2 in NC, which she does not need...
    But Trump seems to be holding up in the Swing states (And I make it Trump +5 in NC, Ohio and +3 in Nevada by Fox). This latest black rioting and Trump suggesting Stop & Search as a means of reducing crime may cost him votes in Florida, though.
    I'd have thought the rioting would help Trump in North Carolina most specifically.
This discussion has been closed.