@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
1) No, only of being lied to the same as everyone else.
2) She meant it at the time and regretted it later.
3) I accept the first point. Do you see what I meant about what actually happened in 1992 being a case of Eurofanaticism (of the pro- variety) getting in the way of sane government?
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Oh come off it, by the end of her reign it was clear she was deeply eurosceptic. No no no. The Bruges speech. Etc
She wanted a trading bloc and single market (so do I) she hated the political stuff (like most Brits).
By the end of her reign it was clear she was losing her marbles and had delusions of regency.
1) You cannot plausibly remain a member of the customs union and have your own trade deals. Enough Leavers have said they want WTO rules rather than remain in the custom unions.
Someone should tell Turkey, which is part of the customs union but has still managed to sign 19 free trade agreements, has 14 under negotiation and 13 planned.
Page 2
Dr Peter Holmes: First, you have to be careful about talking about ‘being in the Customs Union’ as a non-EU country. I do not think that that is a possibility. Andorra, Vatican City, San Merino and Monaco are physically inside it and are effectively part of it, but the only country that is linked to the EU in a Customs Union relationship which is not a member is Turkey. It is not a member of the Customs Union; it is a country that has a Customs Union with the Customs Union. That is quite different, because the coverage of the customs union with Turkey is different from that of the EU Customs Union. . As you point out, it does not cover services or agriculture, and, very strikingly, anti-dumping is still possible between the EU and Turkey. There was a WTO case some years ago involving relations between India and Turkey—I can perhaps send you the details—which highlights the incomplete nature of the EU-Turkey Customs Union.
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Counterfactuals are interesting but one has to rely on the facts. Speculatively though...one wonders if early stage Alzheimer's affected her analysis. I genuinely don't know but if nothing else her political faculties had collapsed even before she was defenestrated.
1) You cannot plausibly remain a member of the customs union and have your own trade deals. Enough Leavers have said they want WTO rules rather than remain in the custom unions.
Someone should tell Turkey, which is part of the customs union but has still managed to sign 19 free trade agreements, has 14 under negotiation and 13 planned.
Page 2
Dr Peter Holmes: First, you have to be careful about talking about ‘being in the Customs Union’ as a non-EU country. I do not think that that is a possibility. Andorra, Vatican City, San Merino and Monaco are physically inside it and are effectively part of it, but the only country that is linked to the EU in a Customs Union relationship which is not a member is Turkey. It is not a member of the Customs Union; it is a country that has a Customs Union with the Customs Union. That is quite different, because the coverage of the customs union with Turkey is different from that of the EU Customs Union. . As you point out, it does not cover services or agriculture, and, very strikingly, anti-dumping is still possible between the EU and Turkey. There was a WTO case some years ago involving relations between India and Turkey—I can perhaps send you the details—which highlights the incomplete nature of the EU-Turkey Customs Union.
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Oh come off it, by the end of her reign it was clear she was deeply eurosceptic. No no no. The Bruges speech. Etc
She wanted a trading bloc and single market (so do I) she hated the political stuff (like most Brits).
By the end of her reign it was clear she was losing her marbles and had delusions of regency.
When accompanied by her marbles she was great. I can't make head or tail of your 'regency' comments.
How trolled can you get if you're a rocket fanboi !!
Elon's always late.
I'm very sceptical about Elon. He's proved me wrong in the past though, and I like his vision.
Someone needs to be doing this. Why? Well, because we can.
I like the fact that Jeff Bezos is in the background (A bit like Lex Luther) always plotting to outdo him too - when you have as much money as those two then ego must pretty much be the only driver.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
1) No, only of being lied to the same as everyone else.
2) She meant it at the time and regretted it later.
3) I accept the first point. Do you see what I meant about what actually happened in 1992 being a case of Eurofanaticism (of the pro- variety) getting in the way of sane government?
She was fully aware of what the EEC was about as was any well-informed person at the time.
Watch Ted Heath here at 1:26:30 from the 1975 campaign - "What really divides us is that those who are opposing this motion are content to remain with the past development and institutions and organisation of the nation state and those on this side are those who want to move forward into a new organisation which is going to have greater success in meeting the needs of its peoples than the nation state has done in the past. That is what clearly divides us."
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Oh come off it, by the end of her reign it was clear she was deeply eurosceptic. No no no. The Bruges speech. Etc
She wanted a trading bloc and single market (so do I) she hated the political stuff (like most Brits).
By the end of her reign it was clear she was losing her marbles and had delusions of regency.
When accompanied by her marbles she was great. I can't make head or tail of your 'regency' comments.
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Oh come off it, by the end of her reign it was clear she was deeply eurosceptic. No no no. The Bruges speech. Etc
She wanted a trading bloc and single market (so do I) she hated the political stuff (like most Brits).
By the end of her reign it was clear she was losing her marbles and had delusions of regency.
When accompanied by her marbles she was great. I can't make head or tail of your 'regency' comments.
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Oh come off it, by the end of her reign it was clear she was deeply eurosceptic. No no no. The Bruges speech. Etc
She wanted a trading bloc and single market (so do I) she hated the political stuff (like most Brits).
By the end of her reign it was clear she was losing her marbles and had delusions of regency.
When accompanied by her marbles she was great. I can't make head or tail of your 'regency' comments.
How trolled can you get if you're a rocket fanboi !!
Elon's always late.
I'm very sceptical about Elon. He's proved me wrong in the past though, and I like his vision.
Someone needs to be doing this. Why? Well, because we can.
I like the fact that Jeff Bezos is in the background (A bit like Lex Luther) always plotting to outdo him too - when you have as much money as those two then ego must pretty much be the only driver.
I'm not sure Musk is that rich. He has a lot of assets, but that's mainly shares in things like SolarCity and Tesla. If one of those goes down, then he's in trouble. It nearly happened nine or so years ago.
Bezos's money is tied up in Amazon, but that seems much more secure.
Good luck to both of them, though. We need to look outwards as a race.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal. .
I still cannot see how an unexit would become politically viable (even though, with a good enough deal, I personally am persuadable - it was the lack of belief the EU was capable of genuine reform because it clearly didn't believe it was needed, even if they occasionally said it was, that drove my feelings of Brexit) even in that situation, but I will hold my hand up and admit to being just plain wrong if the EU as a group does indeed offer a fresh deal - I really don't see how it is in the institution's best interests to cave on that issue, even if they would indeed regret us leaving.
Time is running out though - his 'offer' is surely a bit like Owen Smith's, something he can say knowing that he won't have to act on it as things will have moved on by the time he can?
How trolled can you get if you're a rocket fanboi !!
Elon's always late.
I'm very sceptical about Elon. He's proved me wrong in the past though, and I like his vision.
Someone needs to be doing this. Why? Well, because we can.
I like the fact that Jeff Bezos is in the background (A bit like Lex Luther) always plotting to outdo him too - when you have as much money as those two then ego must pretty much be the only driver.
I'm not sure Musk is that rich. He has a lot of assets, but that's mainly shares in things like SolarCity and Tesla. If one of those goes down, then he's in trouble. It nearly happened nine or so years ago.
Bezos's money is tied up in Amazon, but that seems much more secure.
Good luck to both of them, though. We need to look outwards as a race.
Absolutely. The two of them will also push each other to succeed, as happened with the first space race 70 years ago.
1) Well that would be a turn-up. Though a) he's not really in a position to offer anything right now, and by the time he is it may be too late, and b) we'll see (or not) what he manages to offer in the face of the French Euro-machine. It could be the compromise between the 52% and the 48% that we need.
2) How have we - in the face of everything going on in the Labour party and the US presidential election - managed to basically devote the last four hours to discussing Brexit?
Trump is now just putting together larger and later collages of the internet voodoo polls on his Twitter now. Genuinely sad.
when obama lost the first debate, he admitted he lost and moved on.
Trump is going crazy on voodo polls, calling a woman too fat in public whilst being obese homself, and teaming up with rudy 'dumped his wife during a live press conference' gulliani to say how clinton is stupid for taking her husband back.
He really hates being shown up publically. and showing his calm temperment
Nate's 'Now Cast' is back in Hillary's favour, but it's still ridiculously close.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
@williamglenn It's worth elaborating on my previous post, which was typed on my phone whilst walking, I feel.
Thatcher was forced out as Tory leader and PM by the odious Michael Heseltine, in part because she was seen as insufficiently pro-'Europe'. John Major then entered No. 10 and took us into the ERM. He kept us there well after it became clear that it wasn't working and had to whack interest rates up to silly levels, hurting businesses and homeowners immensely in the process, in order to maintain the peg. This all ended with chaos and turmoil when we crashed out anyway.
That is a crystal clear example of sane government being undermined by Eurofanatics, but not in the way you'd like to think.
Rewriting history there. It was Thatcher as PM who took us into the ERM
Sorry, right you are. She wasn't enthusiastic about it though, and certainly wasn't there to go to ridiculous lengths to keep us in.
Thatcher was the great EU Federalist.
1) Campaigned on the Remain side in 1975
2) Signed the Single European Act
3) Took us into the ERM
1) For a trading agreement, not a political union.
2) ...and regretted it.
3) As FF43 pointed out, there was some economic rationale to that. There was no such rationale to 15% interest rates, that was pure ideology; a milder form of throwing a generation on the scrapheap in the Med to keep the euro alive. Would Thatcher have done what Major did? We'll never know for sure.
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
Oh come off it, by the end of her reign it was clear she was deeply eurosceptic. No no no. The Bruges speech. Etc
She wanted a trading bloc and single market (so do I) she hated the political stuff (like most Brits).
By the end of her reign it was clear she was losing her marbles and had delusions of regency.
When accompanied by her marbles she was great. I can't make head or tail of your 'regency' comments.
'We' are a grandmother.
Yo! "We IS a grandmother"! "We are" is American English
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal. .
I still cannot see how an unexit would become politically viable (even though, with a good enough deal, I personally am persuadable - it was the lack of belief the EU was capable of genuine reform because it clearly didn't believe it was needed, even if they occasionally said it was, that drove my feelings of Brexit) even in that situation, but I will hold my hand up and admit to being just plain wrong if the EU as a group does indeed offer a fresh deal - I really don't see how it is in the institution's best interests to cave on that issue, even if they would indeed regret us leaving.
Time is running out though - his 'offer' is surely a bit like Owen Smith's, something he can say knowing that he won't have to act on it as things will have moved on by the time he can?
I can't believe that there wouldn't be a way around 'rules' relating to Article 50 if the EU and Britain at some point in the future wanted to do a deal then they would do it. I'm not saying that this is at all likely.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
And the British public too.
If Sarkozy wins the Prez, and if he can persuade Merkel on a reformed EU to which we can sign up -- then this country will have helped shape Europe for the better for the third or fourth occasion in little over a century.
I voted Remain, but I'll gladly wear sack-cloth and ashes if at the end of this, a reformed EU is the outcome.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal. .
I still cannot see how an unexit would become politically viable (even though, with a good enough deal, I personally am persuadable - it was the lack of belief the EU was capable of genuine reform because it clearly didn't believe it was needed, even if they occasionally said it was, that drove my feelings of Brexit) even in that situation, but I will hold my hand up and admit to being just plain wrong if the EU as a group does indeed offer a fresh deal - I really don't see how it is in the institution's best interests to cave on that issue, even if they would indeed regret us leaving.
It's in the economic interests of nearly all the member states to prevent Brexit. The small gains from feasting on London are entirely outweighed by the damage to the EU's stability, the threat to trade, the general chaos - and the potential loss of the UK's contributions, financial and otherwise.
What's more, the EU isn't working as it is, and the far right is rising across the continent.
Sarko sees this, and says it. He is quite likely to win the French presidency.
The problem will be the eurocrats, who will hate the idea of giving Britain more, and equally, they will hate the idea of a curb on their powers.
I can conceive of the member states considering the issue, although I would have thought some would share the eurocrat justifiable fear that to give us more now would be to open themselves up to a catalogue of blackmailing 'out' votes.
Where I struggle is, in the sorts of timeframes we are talking about, such a plan gaining traction, being made and then being taken up on this side - sure, the Tory MPs and vote were more split than the membership, but May hasn't been saying 'Brexit is Brexit' like a malfunctioning automaton for her health.
It is through fear of just such an option, to prevent Brexit, that there will be hell to pay if A50 is not declared early 2017. I'm a Leaver who can accept that a wholly new offer from the EU would be a change of circumstance at least worth pausing our actions on, so might you be, but we are probably a minority. Not least since the main problem has been people believing what the EU and our government might promise, even if it sounds good.
And of course, the EU accepting such a plan involves the EU accepting, genuinely accepting, that it has gone down the wrong path and needs to change direction. But of course they've claimed to acknowledge that they need to change so many times before, and yet when the immediate danger passes out comes the same old EU. Even if we find this idea, should it be taken up, enticing, would it really change anything?
1) You're accusing her of remarkable ignorance. 2) She deepened the union after having been PM for over 5 years. Not much evidence of regret there. 3) The domestic rationale was that it gave cover for a harsh regime to target inflation which was successful. Whether Thatcher wouldn't have acted differently during the crisis of 1992 is of purely academic interest.
1) No, only of being lied to the same as everyone else.
2) She meant it at the time and regretted it later.
3) I accept the first point. Do you see what I meant about what actually happened in 1992 being a case of Eurofanaticism (of the pro- variety) getting in the way of sane government?
She was fully aware of what the EEC was about as was any well-informed person at the time.
Watch Ted Heath here at 1:26:30 from the 1975 campaign - "What really divides us is that those who are opposing this motion are content to remain with the past development and institutions and organisation of the nation state and those on this side are those who want to move forward into a new organisation which is going to have greater success in meeting the needs of its peoples than the nation state has done in the past. That is what clearly divides us."
People - naively perhaps - probably interpreted this kind of thing as pro-international co-operation, not pro-countries gradually being rubbed off the map. Thatcher saw what the EU was about towards the end of her premiership and changed her tune accordingly.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
France have a habit of making offers like that when they are in a tight corner. I recall they asked to join the UK in 1940 with the King becoming king of France restoring his ancient titles and they also tried to join the Commonwealth in the 50s.
Not sure how seriously to take it but certainly an interesting move. Pity the story is behind a firewall.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
"Can Sarko really deliver that?" No. Sadly.
Agreed. It would require the French Govt, the German Govt, a majority of the rest of the EU govts and the Presidents of the EU bodies to push for it. Too many blocks, fiefdoms and barriers to change. When they chose Juncker they killed of hope of sensible reform for his term in office.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
And the British public too.
If Sarkozy wins the Prez, and if he can persuade Merkel on a reformed EU to which we can sign up -- then this country will have helped shape Europe for the better for the third or fourth occasion in little over a century.
I voted Remain, but I'll gladly wear sack-cloth and ashes if at the end of this, a reformed EU is the outcome.
Dont expect us to be within it though without an EU version of the Balfour Declaration and statute of Westminster though. May wants to get a Majority in 2020.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
And the British public too.
If Sarkozy wins the Prez, and if he can persuade Merkel on a reformed EU to which we can sign up -- then this country will have helped shape Europe for the better for the third or fourth occasion in little over a century.
I voted Remain, but I'll gladly wear sack-cloth and ashes if at the end of this, a reformed EU is the outcome.
I don't think May would be able to sell continued UK membership of the EU. But they could simply disguise continued UK membership of a truly REFORMED EU under a different name - associate membership, special status, etc
Like I said earlier: a fudge.
Indeed, but the article mentions a tighter Eurozone. I do not and the U.K. does not want to be part of the Euro. Happy if that's to be considered "associate membership" with a curtailed commission.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal. .
I still cannot see how an unexit would become politically viable (even though, with a good enough deal, I personally am persuadable - it was the lack of belief the EU was capable of genuine reform because it clearly didn't believe it was needed, even if they occasionally said it was, that drove my feelings of Brexit) even in that situation, but I will hold my hand up and admit to being just plain wrong if the EU as a group does indeed offer a fresh deal - I really don't see how it is in the institution's best interests to cave on that issue, even if they would indeed regret us leaving.
Time is running out though - his 'offer' is surely a bit like Owen Smith's, something he can say knowing that he won't have to act on it as things will have moved on by the time he can?
I can't believe that there wouldn't be a way around 'rules' relating to Article 50 if the EU and Britain at some point in the future wanted to do a deal then they would do it. I'm not saying that this is at all likely.
Oh, I can conceive of a fudge where the process is halted somehow. Who's going to say that was illegal, the ECJ 10 years from now?
But to my mind reversing Brexit requires conditions that are mututally exclusive. It has to be far enough down the line that a sclerotic EU is able to come up with such a plan, sell it to us, and for pre-Brexit jitters be so bad that the Leaver core is weakened, but it has to be soon enough that we are not practically out and many will feel committed, in particular politicians committed to the point they cannot back away now (and many are at that stage already).
If Sarkozy can a)win the Republican nomination b) win the French presidency and c) prevent Brexit through a reformed EU, he will surely be the greatest statesmen of our time and one would have thought so amazing he would never have lost to Francois Hollande, Monsieur Flambe, in the first place.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
1) Well that would be a turn-up. Though a) he's not really in a position to offer anything right now, and by the time he is it may be too late, and b) we'll see (or not) what he manages to offer in the face of the French Euro-machine. It could be the compromise between the 52% and the 48% that we need.
2) How have we - in the face of everything going on in the Labour party and the US presidential election - managed to basically devote the last four hours to discussing Brexit?
Sarkozy: well good luck to him at least on the principle ( no idea on the details ). A genuinely reformed EU would've been/would be great. However, I don't think he has a prayer of overcoming the inertia, the almost certain downright opposition of the likes of Juncker, or doing it in a timetable that allows for German elections and us alonst certainly having triggered Art 50 in Q1 next year, so being " out out " by Q1 2019. The EU wasn't interested in reform so Brexit was the result. In the real world Sarkozy is too little too late.
Brexit: is the geopolitical event of probably the last 50 or even 70 years in the UK. The Labour Party is a side show in a stripey booth with an old man, with sausages, a crocodile, and a rolling pin.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
It can do, in moments of great national, or continental, crisis.
If there is an opportunity to make Europe safer for freedom, and safer for prosperity --- we should grab it, and who gives a shit what Leadson thinks?
May would go down in history.
To be clear, this is all highly unlikely. But it's tantalising.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Mentally the UK has checked out of the EU and simply won't believe any promise of reform. Also it would split the Tory party as the Leadbangers can smell freedom and won't give that up. May is not going to lose her leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
How Boris was slated by remainiacs for suggesting exactly something like this would happen in February lol.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal. .
I still cannot see how an unexit would become politically viable (even though, with a good enough deal, I personally am persuadable - it was the lack of belief the EU was capable of genuine reform because it clearly didn't believe it was needed, even if they occasionally said it was, that drove my feelings of Brexit) even in that situation, but I will hold my hand up and admit to being just plain wrong if the EU as a group does indeed offer a fresh deal - I really don't see how it is in the institution's best interests to cave on that issue, even if they would indeed regret us leaving.
Time is running out though - his 'offer' is surely a bit like Owen Smith's, something he can say knowing that he won't have to act on it as things will have moved on by the time he can?
I can't believe that there wouldn't be a way around 'rules' relating to Article 50 if the EU and Britain at some point in the future wanted to do a deal then they would do it. I'm not saying that this is at all likely.
Oh, I can conceive of a fudge where the process is halted somehow. Who's going to say that was illegal, the ECJ 10 years from now?
But to my mind reversing Brexit requires conditions that are mututally exclusive. It has to be far enough down the line that a sclerotic EU is able to come up with such a plan, sell it to us, and for pre-Brexit jitters be so bad that the Leaver core is weakened, but it has to be soon enough that we are not practically out and many will feel committed, in particular politicians committed to the point they cannot back away now (and many are at that stage already).
If Sarkozy can a)win the Republican nomination b) win the French presidency and c) prevent Brexit through a reformed EU, he will surely be the greatest statesmen of our time and one would have thought so amazing he would never have lost to Francois Hollande, Monsieur Flambe, in the first place.
Mind you if the EU ends up losing free movement from the UK but gaining free movement from Turkey I can't see too many EU citizens being too satisfied with that deal
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
How Boris was slated by remainiacs for suggesting exactly something like this would happen in February lol.
And other Leavers. Though let us not forget 'the EU' has not offered anything of the sort yet, and in fact quite the opposite, so it may well yet prove to have been a silly suggestion, merely one that a potential candidate has taken up.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
x 1,000,000.
We are leaving. But it is wholly legitimate to discuss what flavour of leaving we are going to get, and why.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
I cannot copy and paste the salient details, but it talks of a curtailed commission, a no to Turkey accession, a tighter Eurozone, and a reformed Schengen.
I also agree with SeanT that it's not actually in any country's long term strategic interests for Britain to exit.
Yes, France becomes relatively more influential, but within a relatively less powerful bloc. The big game is global stature and clout.
Also, the EU is dysfunctional; everybody knows it; and if someone like Sarkozy doesn't call for it, then eventually a Le Pen will.
I don't much like Sarkozy, but he is a Gaullist, and they're quite good at getting the big picture.
Aside from anything else, I'm surprised while trying to win the Republican nomination Sarkozy would even think to suggest he would try to prevent Brexit - is it really an issue of concern even among the French right that will win him votes? Is it just to balance out his comments on Calais?
Despite the talk from Sarkozy, the only deal I would accept would be a devolved EU back into the EEC before Maastricht, minus the Commission which should be abolished.
Effectively a return to the status before 1992 but without the pressure group in Brussels.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
Aside from anything else, I'm surprised while trying to win the Republican nomination Sarkozy would even think to suggest he would try to prevent Brexit - is it really an issue of concern even among the French right that will win him votes? Is it just to balance out his comments on Calais?
It is more in tune with his demands to end Schengen as it now is, reform free movement and take a tough line on immigration. A Sarkozy v Le Pen run off would be ideal for May
Aside from anything else, I'm surprised while trying to win the Republican nomination Sarkozy would even think to suggest he would try to prevent Brexit - is it really an issue of concern even among the French right that will win him votes? Is it just to balance out his comments on Calais?
He's juxtaposing it with pursuing accession talks with Turkey which he regards as madness. Framing it as, "Do you want an EU fit for the Brits or fit for the Turks?" is a way to concentrate minds.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
There are certain times and circumstances and manners of leaving when it's better to give the coat up.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would ha
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
leadershipolitical advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When m up with the greats.
How Boris was slated by remainiacs for suggesting exactly something like this would happen in February lol.
And other Leavers. Though let us not forget 'the EU' has not offered anything of the sort yet, and in fact quite the opposite, so it may well yet prove to have been a silly suggestion, merely one that a potential candidate has taken up.
He's not just any old European politico tho, is he?
There's a very good chance he will be French president by next May. The second most powerful politician in the entire EU.
Not worthless, but still not of huge worth if the rest are not amendable, particularly if May and others are pressed into saying they won't be considering any such revised deal.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified. Brussels' powers restricted.
Can Sarko really deliver that?
If he can, he could save the continent. Quite a prize.
leadership on the off chance that Sarkozy might be doing anything more than just posturing for French political advantage.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
How Boris was slated by remainiacs for suggesting exactly something like this would happen in February lol.
And other Leavers. Though let us not forget 'the EU' has not offered anything of the sort yet, and in fact quite the opposite, so it may well yet prove to have been a silly suggestion, merely one that a potential candidate has taken up.
If he told Junckers and co in no uncertain terms that if they didnt agree he would do what his 50s predecessor wanted to do ie leave the EU, join the Commonwealth and set up a Commonwealth free trade area with Britain they would have little choice.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
It's also fair to go back if a depressing party with no music suddenly turns into a coke-fuelled orgy with lots of nice wine
Sarkozy might bring the coke, but Merkel will confine it to the bathroom, not off the hookers tits which is what we want.
The idea that the EU can be reformed is for the birds.
"With Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and the London boroughs among the Labour authorities that will have all out local elections in May 2018, there will be a ripple effect. Selections for those contests will take place in summer 2017. At which time, members who have joined the Labour Party in support of Mr Corbyn over the last two years will be eligible to vote, including those blocked by the High Court in August.
It is for this reason that many moderate Labour leaders are now working on the assumption that they and their cabinets will be deselected. Many other Labour councillors are simply planning to walk away. It will be the Momentum wing of the Labour Party that fills the gap.
Couple that with the political polarisation of the country post-Brexit, lack of information about who runs councils and lack of engagement and turn out for local elections, and it is highly likely that areas with a strong Labour vote will turn out Labour councils anyway.
We could therefore see Corbynites taking over town halls as early as May next year and leading some of our major cities by 2018."
With all the talk of the ructions at the top of the Labour Party and in Parliament, the effect of leftist radicalisation on local government has been somewhat overlooked. It's entirely possible, perhaps likely, that Loony Left councils will be back before long and itching to pick fights with the Government. The litany of profligacy and of extremist and politically correct absurdities that will subsequently be revealed to a horrified wider public may help to increase the Con/Lab gap in the national opinion polls even further - not to mention offering Theresa May the chance to act tough and take a free swing at hapless amateur revolutionaries all over the Labour heartlands.
It looks like Labour is going to keep on eviscerating and slowly torturing itself to death for the whole of the rest of this Parliament. There may not be enough Champagne in the country to keep the needs of Tory HQ and the Local Associations supplied by the time this is all over.
Despite the talk from Sarkozy, the only deal I would accept would be a devolved EU back into the EEC before Maastricht, minus the Commission which should be abolished.
Effectively a return to the status before 1992 but without the pressure group in Brussels.
Sounds reasonable- would need freedom of movement tweaking for the realities of 21st century ease if travel and wildly different wage rates in different countries too. We both know it'll never happen, of course, because it's heresy to "ever closer union", but sounds reasonable nevertheless.
No suprise, the SNP are way more corrupt that even scottish Labour.
When would the by-election be, assuming a conviction ?
For the laughs, I'd like to see an MP convicted and sentenced to less than 12 months, and follow the letter of the rules by not .
Also, I like how Glascow East is described as a 'key battleground' from 2015. SNP majority of 10000, if that's a battle it was one like Agincourt. Or Cannae.
No suprise, the SNP are way more corrupt that even scottish Labour.
When would the by-election be, assuming a conviction ?
For the laughs, I'd like to see an MP convicted and sentenced to less than 12 months, and follow the letter of the rules by not .
Also, I like how Glascow East is described as a 'key battleground' from 2015. SNP majority of 10000, if that's a battle it was one like Agincourt. Or Cannae.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
There are certain times and circumstances and manners of leaving when it's better to give the coat up.
Well sure, if you stumbled out drunk and broke a window maybe, but this scenario involved saying goodbye, so I think the circumstances were amicable.
No suprise, the SNP are way more corrupt that even scottish Labour.
When would the by-election be, assuming a conviction ?
For the laughs, I'd like to see an MP convicted and sentenced to less than 12 months, and follow the letter of the rules by not .
Also, I like how Glascow East is described as a 'key battleground' from 2015. SNP majority of 10000, if that's a battle it was one like Agincourt. Or Cannae.
If he told Junckers and co in no uncertain terms that if they didnt agree he would do what his 50s predecessor wanted to do ie leave the EU, join the Commonwealth and set up a Commonwealth free trade area with Britain they would have little choice.
I fully support that idea, we can have 2 major free trade areas in europe which would compete with each other to see who is best.
We can name ours the European Economic Community and see the EU froth with our more succesful system (and trolling).
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
It's also fair to go back if a depressing party with no music suddenly turns into a coke-fuelled orgy with lots of nice wine
Sarkozy might bring the coke, but Merkel will confine it to the bathroom, not off the hookers tits which is what we want.
The idea that the EU can be reformed is for the birds.
Probably, Eastern Europe may also veto it but it does show France at least is willing to be flexible on freedom of movement and if France why not Germany too with the growth of the Afd, or Holland with the rise of Wilders etc
"With Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and the London boroughs among the Labour authorities that will have all out local elections in May 2018, there will be a ripple effect. Selections for those contests will take place in summer 2017. At which time, members who have joined the Labour Party in support of Mr Corbyn over the last two years will be eligible to vote, including those blocked by the High Court in August.
It is for this reason that many moderate Labour leaders are now working on the assumption that they and their cabinets will be deselected. Many other Labour councillors are simply planning to walk away. It will be the Momentum wing of the Labour Party that fills the gap.
Couple that with the political polarisation of the country post-Brexit, lack of information about who runs councils and lack of engagement and turn out for local elections, and it is highly likely that areas with a strong Labour vote will turn out Labour councils anyway.
We could therefore see Corbynites taking over town halls as early as May next year and leading some of our major cities by 2018."
With all the talk of the ructions at the top of the Labour Party and in Parliament, the effect of leftist radicalisation on local government has been somewhat overlooked. It's entirely possible, perhaps likely, that Loony Left councils will be back before long and itching to pick fights with the Government. The litany of profligacy and of extremist and politically correct absurdities that will subsequently be revealed to a horrified wider public may help to increase the Con/Lab gap in the national opinion polls even further - not to mention offering Theresa May the chance to act tough and take a free swing at hapless amateur revolutionaries all over the Labour heartlands.
It looks like Labour is going to keep on eviscerating and slowly torturing itself to death for the whole of the rest of this Parliament. There may not be enough Champagne in the country to keep the needs of Tory HQ and the Local Associations supplied by the time this is all over.
I warned about this the other day. Shits and giggles if you're Tory HQ, but rather depressing if a bunch of Trots seize control of your local city council.
Thank sweet jesus for the coalition's education reforms.
It's a real test for May. It would be a failure of statecraft not to keep the door open to such an offer: here's the likely President of France saying, Yes, Britain, you CAN have your cake and eat it.
And yet the hardcore sceptics in her party will turn on her if she looks amenable.
Incidentally this blows out the water the idea the EU won't negotiate before A50 is triggered. You don't get a much bigger negotiation than the probable next president of France offering an entirely new EU after a new Treaty
True enough. And though I would have to know more details of a new deal before I could say I would support it, it would be very interesting to see if May were strong and able enough to at least hear it out.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
There are certain times and circumstances and manners of leaving when it's better to give the coat up.
Well sure, if you stumbled out drunk and broke a window maybe, but this scenario involved saying goodbye, so I think the circumstances were amicable.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
Silvio Berlusconi is running the EU renegotiations with us???
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
It's also fair to go back if a depressing party with no music suddenly turns into a coke-fuelled orgy with lots of nice wine
Sarkozy might bring the coke, but Merkel will confine it to the bathroom, not off the hookers tits which is what we want.
The idea that the EU can be reformed is for the birds.
Probably, Eastern Europe may also veto it but it does show France at least is willing to be flexible on freedom of movement and if France why not Germany too with the growth of the Afd, or Holland with the rise of Wilders etc
No reason for Eastern Europe to veto. He proposes reforming Schengen, not FOM. I rather think they'd be for it, it it means controlling movement of refugees properly.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
There are certain times and circumstances and manners of leaving when it's better to give the coat up.
Everyone needs to read that Sarkozy story. Could change everything
It is, of course, what Boris predicted. The EU would return with a better deal.
If nothing else, it shows absolutely unpredictable this is. Entirely dynamic, chaotic. The EU is as divided as the UK.
Can't get behind FT paywall to see details, but I would take a LOT of convincing that this presages anything meaningful, and even more that the public could be persuaded to do a U-turn (let alone the very large Brexit faction within the Parliamentary Conservative Party.)
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
Jesus I don't want to go back. We have left. That would be saying goodbye to everyone at the party and then going back for your coat.
I don't think that analogy quite works - it is very reasonable to go back if you left your coat behind.
It's also fair to go back if a depressing party with no music suddenly turns into a coke-fuelled orgy with lots of nice wine
Sarkozy might bring the coke, but Merkel will confine it to the bathroom, not off the hookers tits which is what we want.
The idea that the EU can be reformed is for the birds.
Probably, Eastern Europe may also veto it but it does show France at least is willing to be flexible on freedom of movement and if France why not Germany too with the growth of the Afd, or Holland with the rise of Wilders etc
No reason for Eastern Europe to veto. He proposes reforming Schengen, not FOM. I rather think they'd be for it, it it means controlling movement of refugees properly.
Though if no FOM reform is offered I cannot see the UK electorate agreeing, Merkel too needs to agree to any Schengen reform
"With Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and the London boroughs among the Labour authorities that will have all out local elections in May 2018, there will be a ripple effect. Selections for those contests will take place in summer 2017. At which time, members who have joined the Labour Party in support of Mr Corbyn over the last two years will be eligible to vote, including those blocked by the High Court in August.
It is for this reason that many moderate Labour leaders are now working on the assumption that they and their cabinets will be deselected. Many other Labour councillors are simply planning to walk away. It will be the Momentum wing of the Labour Party that fills the gap.
Couple that with the political polarisation of the country post-Brexit, lack of information about who runs councils and lack of engagement and turn out for local elections, and it is highly likely that areas with a strong Labour vote will turn out Labour councils anyway.
We could therefore see Corbynites taking over town halls as early as May next year and leading some of our major cities by 2018."
It looks like Labour is going to keep on eviscerating and slowly torturing itself to death for the whole of the rest of this Parliament. There may not be enough Champagne in the country to keep the needs of Tory HQ and the Local Associations supplied by the time this is all over.
I warned about this the other day. Shits and giggles if you're Tory HQ, but rather depressing if a bunch of Trots seize control of your local city council.
Thank sweet jesus for the coalition's education reforms.
On the contrary. If thatcher had not done things like rate capping and abolishing the metropolitan councils the loony left would have ensured a continuous Tory government from then to now.
Not much fun if you live in the Loony Left Wing Borough of Lambeth or wherever but, paraphrasing Lenin some very useful rope to let the useful (to Tories) idiots of the loony left metaphorically play with on the stairs and end up hanging themselves on the bannister.
No suprise, the SNP are way more corrupt that even scottish Labour.
When would the by-election be, assuming a conviction ?
For the laughs, I'd like to see an MP convicted and sentenced to less than 12 months, and follow the letter of the rules by not .
Also, I like how Glascow East is described as a 'key battleground' from 2015. SNP majority of 10000, if that's a battle it was one like Agincourt. Or Cannae.
Amazingly Labour had a 10k majority in 2010!
Could the Conservatives come second this time?
In Glasgow East ? If Kezia Dugdale selects the Labour candidate and Corbyn stays away they might.
Yes, and this is why their are higher stakes to play for than 'soft-Brexit'. We have a chance to be the catalyst to true reform of the EU itself, and should aim for this as the best case outcome of the vote to abandon the status quo.
I would happily vote REMAIN if it was a truly reformed Europe. Freedom of Movement would have to be qualified.
If May has any sense, she'll be on the phone to Sarko now.
It's called statesmanship.
Does statesmanship trump party management and the ultra brigade?
Yes. When they write the history books, no-one says that a PM may have missed a strategic opportunity for the nation but keeping Joe Headbanger on board puts them up with the greats.
How Boris was slated by remainiacs for suggesting exactly something like this would happen in February lol.
And other Leavers. Though let us not forget 'the EU' has not offered anything of the sort yet, and in fact quite the opposite, so it may well yet prove to have been a silly suggestion, merely one that a potential candidate has taken up.
If he told Junckers and co in no uncertain terms that if they didnt agree he would do what his 50s predecessor wanted to do ie leave the EU, join the Commonwealth and set up a Commonwealth free trade area with Britain they would have little choice.
Of course we did not actually join the EEC/EU in the first place but EFTA. We were one of the founder members of EFTA along with Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Portugal, Sweden and Austria. Interestingly, though a majority of those nations have now joined the EU, a majority are still not in the Eurozone
Comments
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a3862271/bill-clinton-melania-trump-presidential-debate-2016/
Will and Grace election special, Karen comes out for her 'oldest friend' Donald Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXBL0C7bx5M
2) She meant it at the time and regretted it later.
3) I accept the first point. Do you see what I meant about what actually happened in 1992 being a case of Eurofanaticism (of the pro- variety) getting in the way of sane government?
I'm very sceptical about Elon. He's proved me wrong in the past though, and I like his vision.
Someone needs to be doing this. Why? Well, because we can.
Dr Peter Holmes: First, you have to be careful about talking about ‘being in the Customs Union’ as a non-EU country. I do not think that that is a possibility. Andorra, Vatican City, San Merino and Monaco are physically inside it and are effectively part of it, but the only country that is linked to the EU in a Customs Union relationship which is not a member is Turkey. It is not a member of the Customs Union; it is a country that has a Customs Union with the Customs Union. That is quite different, because the coverage of the customs union with Turkey is different from that of the EU Customs Union. . As you point out, it does not
cover services or agriculture, and, very strikingly, anti-dumping is still possible between the
EU and Turkey. There was a WTO case some years ago involving relations between India and
Turkey—I can perhaps send you the details—which highlights the incomplete nature of the
EU-Turkey Customs Union.
http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/eu-internal-market-subcommittee/brexit-future-trade-between-the-uk-and-the-eu/oral/38491.pdf
Or an engineer.
Watch Ted Heath here at 1:26:30 from the 1975 campaign - "What really divides us is that those who are opposing this motion are content to remain with the past development and institutions and organisation of the nation state and those on this side are those who want to move forward into a new organisation which is going to have greater success in meeting the needs of its peoples than the nation state has done in the past. That is what clearly divides us."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2jUYryRYII
Bezos's money is tied up in Amazon, but that seems much more secure.
Good luck to both of them, though. We need to look outwards as a race.
Time is running out though - his 'offer' is surely a bit like Owen Smith's, something he can say knowing that he won't have to act on it as things will have moved on by the time he can?
Ooh, starting now.
2) How have we - in the face of everything going on in the Labour party and the US presidential election - managed to basically devote the last four hours to discussing Brexit?
http://elabe.fr/presidentielle-2017-intentions-de-vote-a-7-mois-scrutin-sondage-elabe-echos-radio-classique/
Juppe narrowly leads Sarkozy 37% to 33% for the LRs nomination though in the latest poll there
http://www.datapressepremium.com/rmdiff/2008641/Rapport_Ipsos_SopraSteria_EEF2017_Vague6_sept_2016.pdf
No.
Sadly.
"I can’t accept to lose Europe’s second-largest economy while we are negotiating with Turkey over its EU membership."
France and the UK are the indispensable Western European democracies. We need to make more of the relationship, whatever the ultimate outcome.
I'm not saying that this is at all likely.
If Sarkozy wins the Prez, and if he can persuade Merkel on a reformed EU to which we can sign up -- then this country will have helped shape Europe for the better for the third or fourth occasion in little over a century.
I voted Remain, but I'll gladly wear sack-cloth and ashes if at the end of this, a reformed EU is the outcome.
It's called statesmanship.
Watch this. It might be a *moment* of history:
http://www.spacex.com/mars
The mood globally is one of disruption. He'll ride that wave then pivot to beat Le Pen.
Where I struggle is, in the sorts of timeframes we are talking about, such a plan gaining traction, being made and then being taken up on this side - sure, the Tory MPs and vote were more split than the membership, but May hasn't been saying 'Brexit is Brexit' like a malfunctioning automaton for her health.
It is through fear of just such an option, to prevent Brexit, that there will be hell to pay if A50 is not declared early 2017. I'm a Leaver who can accept that a wholly new offer from the EU would be a change of circumstance at least worth pausing our actions on, so might you be, but we are probably a minority. Not least since the main problem has been people believing what the EU and our government might promise, even if it sounds good.
And of course, the EU accepting such a plan involves the EU accepting, genuinely accepting, that it has gone down the wrong path and needs to change direction. But of course they've claimed to acknowledge that they need to change so many times before, and yet when the immediate danger passes out comes the same old EU. Even if we find this idea, should it be taken up, enticing, would it really change anything?
Simple - if we are happy to do whatever he wants - we can do it - but do it outside the EU.
Not sure how seriously to take it but certainly an interesting move. Pity the story is behind a firewall.
http://i.imgur.com/eC42oIph.png
But to my mind reversing Brexit requires conditions that are mututally exclusive. It has to be far enough down the line that a sclerotic EU is able to come up with such a plan, sell it to us, and for pre-Brexit jitters be so bad that the Leaver core is weakened, but it has to be soon enough that we are not practically out and many will feel committed, in particular politicians committed to the point they cannot back away now (and many are at that stage already).
If Sarkozy can a)win the Republican nomination b) win the French presidency and c) prevent Brexit through a reformed EU, he will surely be the greatest statesmen of our time and one would have thought so amazing he would never have lost to Francois Hollande, Monsieur Flambe, in the first place.
Brexit: is the geopolitical event of probably the last 50 or even 70 years in the UK. The Labour Party is a side show in a stripey booth with an old man, with sausages, a crocodile, and a rolling pin.
If there is an opportunity to make Europe safer for freedom, and safer for prosperity --- we should grab it, and who gives a shit what Leadson thinks?
May would go down in history.
To be clear, this is all highly unlikely.
But it's tantalising.
The European Commission and all of the member state governments have already accepted we are going, and Brexit can only increase the strength of France in the architecture of the continuing EU. The UK was an ally of Germany, Holland and the Nordics in the (relatively) open market side of the economic argument. Britain's removal significantly increases the strength of the somewhat more protectionist and less austere Latin bloc.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/27/glasgow-east-mp-natalie-mcgarry-charged-fraud-women-for-independence
x 1,000,000.
We are leaving. But it is wholly legitimate to discuss what flavour of leaving we are going to get, and why.
http://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-uk-will-help-turkey-join-the-eu/?utm_content=bufferad56f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
I also agree with SeanT that it's not actually in any country's long term strategic interests for Britain to exit.
Yes, France becomes relatively more influential, but within a relatively less powerful bloc. The big game is global stature and clout.
Also, the EU is dysfunctional; everybody knows it; and if someone like Sarkozy doesn't call for it, then eventually a Le Pen will.
I don't much like Sarkozy, but he is a Gaullist, and they're quite good at getting the big picture.
Effectively a return to the status before 1992 but without the pressure group in Brussels.
When would the by-election be, assuming a conviction ?
The idea that the EU can be reformed is for the birds.
"With Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and the London boroughs among the Labour authorities that will have all out local elections in May 2018, there will be a ripple effect. Selections for those contests will take place in summer 2017. At which time, members who have joined the Labour Party in support of Mr Corbyn over the last two years will be eligible to vote, including those blocked by the High Court in August.
It is for this reason that many moderate Labour leaders are now working on the assumption that they and their cabinets will be deselected. Many other Labour councillors are simply planning to walk away. It will be the Momentum wing of the Labour Party that fills the gap.
Couple that with the political polarisation of the country post-Brexit, lack of information about who runs councils and lack of engagement and turn out for local elections, and it is highly likely that areas with a strong Labour vote will turn out Labour councils anyway.
We could therefore see Corbynites taking over town halls as early as May next year and leading some of our major cities by 2018."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/27/how-jeremy-corbyns-followers-could-seize-control-of-your-town-ha/
With all the talk of the ructions at the top of the Labour Party and in Parliament, the effect of leftist radicalisation on local government has been somewhat overlooked. It's entirely possible, perhaps likely, that Loony Left councils will be back before long and itching to pick fights with the Government. The litany of profligacy and of extremist and politically correct absurdities that will subsequently be revealed to a horrified wider public may help to increase the Con/Lab gap in the national opinion polls even further - not to mention offering Theresa May the chance to act tough and take a free swing at hapless amateur revolutionaries all over the Labour heartlands.
It looks like Labour is going to keep on eviscerating and slowly torturing itself to death for the whole of the rest of this Parliament. There may not be enough Champagne in the country to keep the needs of Tory HQ and the Local Associations supplied by the time this is all over.
I don't think the EU needs any outside help to achieve a state self-buggeration!
Also, I like how Glascow East is described as a 'key battleground' from 2015. SNP majority of 10000, if that's a battle it was one like Agincourt. Or Cannae.
I demand total applicability in all analogies.
We can name ours the European Economic Community and see the EU froth with our more succesful system (and trolling).
Shits and giggles if you're Tory HQ, but rather depressing if a bunch of Trots seize control of your local city council.
Thank sweet jesus for the coalition's education reforms.
He proposes reforming Schengen, not FOM. I rather think they'd be for it, it it means controlling movement of refugees properly.
Been in one or two of those myself.
Not much fun if you live in the Loony Left Wing Borough of Lambeth or wherever but, paraphrasing Lenin some very useful rope to let the useful (to Tories) idiots of the loony left metaphorically play with on the stairs and end up hanging themselves on the bannister.
If Kezia Dugdale selects the Labour candidate and Corbyn stays away they might.