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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Chancellor Philip Hammond is said to believe that for the mome

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited October 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Chancellor Philip Hammond is said to believe that for the moment he is unsackable

Chancellor Phillip Hammond – said by @jameskirkup to be as emerging as the "Real leader of the opposition" – listening to his leader pic.twitter.com/KXeZwo3zN3

Read the full story here


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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    edited October 2016
    Farron 2020.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited October 2016
    Why do I get discussion ID required when the thread is new?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited October 2016
    Wonder who has Hammond in their sights and why. Friends would not call him unsackable.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited October 2016
    Arrogant to say unsackble...
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    Moses_ said:

    Why do I get discussion ID required when the thread is new?

    I only get it sometimes...

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    May chose Hammond because he's even more grey, boring and uncharismatic than herself. He's safe.

    "Philip Hammond has yet to find a room he cannot empty, and once news of his arrival in the chamber had been confirmed, barely a dozen Conservatives bothered to join him.

    That figure went steadily down the longer Hammond spoke. Forty minutes into his hour-long speech – at exactly the moment the foreign secretary declared himself a prominent and charismatic leader of the remain campaign – a door banged. A pistol shot quickly followed. Such events are not uncommon when Hammond is at the dispatch box."
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715
    Sorry. Keep reposting this. Now caught the end of the thread. Philip Hammond is supposedly in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. I am interested in what we would get by staying in and by leaving.

    ---

    ADVANTAGES of REMAINING in CUSTOM UNION
    1. Tariff -free transit of industrial goods with the EU/EEA (but not services or agriculture)
    2. Ready-made set of free trade agreements with third party countries already negotiated by the EU. DIY will result in a long gap while the new deals are negotiated. The EU has more market clout than the UK to get better deals
    3. Much lower burden of red tape as exporters with supply chains don’t require origination certification for the components nor for finished products
    4. UK negotiators can concentrate on the key EU and WTO arrangements. They are spread too thin to take on third country negotiations as well.
    5. Early commitment to a Customs Union would remove uncertainty for investment in UK industrials (think Nissan in Sunderland).
    6. BONUS advantage! Possible redundancy for Liam Fox. The UK would still be able to negotiate Free Trade Agreements with third countries, but is presumably constrained to the import tariffs already set by the EU.

    ADVANTAGES of LEAVING the CUSTOM UNION
    1. The UK can unilaterally reduce its import duties allowing them to compete better with EU countries on price for finished products to third countries
    2. The UK may be more flexible in negotiating deals with third countries and so have a higher chance of success than the EU does.

    Is that a fair summary? If so, an early commitment to the EU Customs Union is compelling, because there are more advantages and more immediately useful ones. The politics may say otherwise of course. What do people think?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613
    I thought only Clarkson was sacked, and May and Hammond resigned?

    Oh, sorry - wrong thread!

    I wonder if Hammond is kicking himself for not running for the leadership? Hammond v May in a members' ballot would have been interesting - he could certainly have portrayed himself as the safe pair of hands to lead the Brexit negotiations. Back in the real world, we have an autumn statement coming up - let's see how it squares with the rhetoric from conference.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998
    Interesting news on Heathrow: it is not expected that expansion will cause EU pollution standards to be exceeded - I think NO2. The reason is that although the airport's pollution will increase, this will be countered by more efficient and less polluting road traffic.

    Does this mean that the final barrier in front of Heathrow expansion has been demolished?

    (The research was apparently independent of both the government and airport. As it was done by Cambridge University, it is obviously utterly correct and immune to criticism).
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I thought only Clarkson was sacked, and May and Hammond resigned?

    Oh, sorry - wrong thread!

    I wonder if Hammond is kicking himself for not running for the leadership? Hammond v May in a members' ballot would have been interesting - he could certainly have portrayed himself as the safe pair of hands to lead the Brexit negotiations. Back in the real world, we have an autumn statement coming up - let's see how it squares with the rhetoric from conference.

    The Autumn statement is when we find out if our new government is really going to look after the working man, or whether it will just dole out sweeties to its voters.

    I quite like Hammond. He doesn't have the narrow minded self-righteousness of the Vicar's daughter.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jonathan said:

    Wonder who has Hammond in their sights and why. Friends would not call him unsackable.

    Hammond is not a Brexiteer.

    I suspect the headbangers would rather he was replaced with someone like John Redwood
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Interesting take on May speech by ex Blair speech man Phil Collins

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-s-speech-unspun-t6kbmc5ds
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613

    Interesting news on Heathrow: it is not expected that expansion will cause EU pollution standards to be exceeded - I think NO2. The reason is that although the airport's pollution will increase, this will be countered by more efficient and less polluting road traffic.

    Does this mean that the final barrier in front of Heathrow expansion has been demolished?

    (The research was apparently independent of both the government and airport. As it was done by Cambridge University, it is obviously utterly correct and immune to criticism).

    Based on assumptions, suppositions and extrapolations. Maybe they still think that the tram system along Uxbridge Road is going ahead to reduce pollution from buses?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    Perhaps. Mind you, they said the Titanic was unsinkable.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: Mercedes to run their engines at a lower mode in Japan:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37571364
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Scott_P said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wonder who has Hammond in their sights and why. Friends would not call him unsackable.

    Hammond is not a Brexiteer.

    I suspect the headbangers would rather he was replaced with someone like John Redwood
    No but we would rather you were replaced by a tub of lard, this cheap point scoring is a fatuous waste of time.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Indigo said:

    this cheap point scoring is a fatuous waste of time.

    And yet you persist with it. Have a break. Have a Kit-Kat
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216

    Good morning, everyone.

    Perhaps. Mind you, they said the Titanic was unsinkable.

    One of my clear impressions of the speech was she called time on "libertarian right'. Surely Fox will be the one who is sacked first in that case: he is a prime example.
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    Jonathan said:

    Wonder who has Hammond in their sights and why. Friends would not call him unsackable.

    An excellent observation Jonathan. No friend of Hammond would say he was " unsackable ". It's negative briefing and comes alongside the Sun piece @Carlottavance helpfully posted on the last thread. " Unsackable " is also a clearly conscious reference to " unassailable " which was used the last time a female PM fell out with her Chancellor over European policy. It's a careful crafted strike *against* Hammond hidden in plain sight.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    David Eckhoff
    I don't normally read Me and My Spoon in @PrivateEyeNews but the Corbyn one is superb. https://t.co/rxDALou0Vl
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    Jonathan said:

    Wonder who has Hammond in their sights and why. Friends would not call him unsackable.

    Quite. One of Osborne's little helpers?

    Anyway it's good if PMs have ministers who stand up to them - or they end up like Thatcher.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016

    I quite like Hammond. He doesn't have the narrow minded self-righteousness of the Vicar's daughter.

    As a LibDem I thought you approved of sanctimony and self-righteousness ;)

    If what she is true to what she has set forward, and I agree we have to wait and see if the action matches the words on that one, it feels refreshing to have a leader that is attempting to inject some sort of moral dimension into politics rather just the short termist tactical game playing we got from the likes of Osborne. It will be interesting to see how the nation reacts to a move from a Liberal Conservative leader to one who appears to be at heart a Christian Democrat.

    My sense is she will be extremely popular in the rural and provincial areas, could be very popular in the Blue Labour areas if she delivers even half of what she has promised, and is going to be very unpopular in the metropolitan and guardian reading circles because they are too right-on and impressed with their own cleverness to take kindly to other people, never mind a Tory, suggesting a moral direction to them.

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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Scott_P said:

    Indigo said:

    this cheap point scoring is a fatuous waste of time.

    And yet you persist with it. Have a break. Have a Kit-Kat
    Anyway, we scored the points that matter.

    17.4 million - 16.1 million
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited October 2016
    For reasons we need not discuss, I was checking 'Allo 'Allo's Wikipedia page, and saw this:
    "In early August 2016, the BBC announced that plans to remake the series had been scrapped due to the possibility of viewers complaining about Gestapo officer Herr Flick, despite regularly showing the original episodes on its channels"

    If accurate, sounds bonkers to me. But there we are.

    Edited extra bit:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Allo_'Allo!#Allo_Allo_remake_cancelled
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,603

    Arrogant to say unsackble...

    It might be had he said it himself. Which he didn't.
    Being in a strong enough position to debate policy with the PM is hardly arrogance.

    And it's not as though he's publicly trying to bounce the PM into a particular direction on Europe, unlike the absurd Liam Fox...
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2016
    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    There is a double advantage to this:

    By re-creating the great Victorian Agricultural Depression*, we would need far fewer East European farm labourers, and all the disused agricultural land would become availible for housing.

    If May is serious about helping the (urban) working classes then this is what she should do.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture?wprov=sfla1
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302
    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The benefits of Brexit trade deals could take nearly two decades to emerge and the Treasury may lose more than £20 billion a year in tax, some ministers believe amid cabinet splits on the issue.

    Other ministers who supported Remain also said that they were nervous of speaking out about their fears for the future in front of the enthusiastic pro-Brexit audiences. “It feels like we’ve rewound the clock 20 years. All they really want to know is what John Redwood thinks about it.”


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ad865022-8b3b-11e6-a2fd-acf8ba5605c0

    Oh...
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    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    There is a double advantage to this:

    By re-creating the great Victorian Agricultural Depression*, we would need far fewer East European farm labourers, and all the disused agricultural land would become availible for housing.

    If May is serious about helping the (urban) working classes then this is what she should do.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture?wprov=sfla1
    Don't worry Fox. The globalising Brexiters will discover the NFU in due course.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    It is, so the advantage of leaving one is we dont have to abide by those limits and can drop the tariffs to suit our own business and social requirements. Notably we can drop tariffs on imported food from North Africa which is being disgraceful priced out to keep French farmers in business (so nothing new there).
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    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Guardian readers?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. HYUFD, indeed, though there's a risk that the split is observed by the EU, they take a harder line but instead of going along with it, May opts for WTO conditions.

    [Just begun re-reading Nicias' line to the Athenians about the Sicilian expedition. Hammond's at risk of repeating that error].
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Scott_P said:

    The benefits of Brexit trade deals could take nearly two decades to emerge and the Treasury may lose more than £20 billion a year in tax, some ministers believe amid cabinet splits on the issue.

    Other ministers who supported Remain also said that they were nervous of speaking out about their fears for the future in front of the enthusiastic pro-Brexit audiences. “It feels like we’ve rewound the clock 20 years. All they really want to know is what John Redwood thinks about it.”


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ad865022-8b3b-11e6-a2fd-acf8ba5605c0

    Oh...

    John Redwood, another dry as dust, fully paid-up member of the 'libertarian right'. Did these folks not listen to the speech, nor be aware of who they have selected as PM? I like Tim Stanley's summary in DT:

    "May, by contrast, has a provincial, WI, prayer book, round table, civic conservatism that is parochial but also instinctively compassionate."

    Note that Angela Merkel is another daughter of a cleric/vicar.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    This is a few days old - but really read on attitudes from Janet Daley

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/01/donald-trump-may-be-dangerously-ignorant-but-i-understand-why-am/
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Nonsense, they voted Brexit because they were overawed by Dr Liam Fox's vision of a bucaneering and Glabal Britain trading with the world. And because they wanted HMY Brittania back so the global elite could sign trade deals on her while sipping champagne.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    There is a double advantage to this:

    By re-creating the great Victorian Agricultural Depression*, we would need far fewer East European farm labourers, and all the disused agricultural land would become availible for housing.

    If May is serious about helping the (urban) working classes then this is what she should do.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture?wprov=sfla1
    Don't worry Fox. The globalising Brexiters will discover the NFU in due course.
    Sounds like producer interest to me, rather than providing cheaper food to the British people (sourced from developing economies that need the money).
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    It is why Hammond as next to leave the cabinet at 25/1 with Ladbrokes offers a bit of value. He may not win.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Not much of a democrat are you ? Or should uneducated people have a special vote card indicating that it should count for less ?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,849
    JonathanD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Nonsense, they voted Brexit because they were overawed by Dr Liam Fox's vision of a bucaneering and Glabal Britain trading with the world. And because they wanted HMY Brittania back so the global elite could sign trade deals on her while sipping champagne.
    All sorts of explanations are put forward for the Brexit vote. The simplest and likeliest is that people think the EU is a bit crappy.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    There is a double advantage to this:

    By re-creating the great Victorian Agricultural Depression*, we would need far fewer East European farm labourers, and all the disused agricultural land would become availible for housing.

    If May is serious about helping the (urban) working classes then this is what she should do.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture?wprov=sfla1
    Don't worry Fox. The globalising Brexiters will discover the NFU in due course.
    Sounds like producer interest to me, rather than providing cheaper food to the British people (sourced from developing economies that need the money).
    More likely to be US Beef, Canadian grain, NZ dairy. North Africa may sell us more fruit and veg.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302
    Indigo said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    It is, so the advantage of leaving one is we dont have to abide by those limits and can drop the tariffs to suit our own business and social requirements. Notably we can drop tariffs on imported food from North Africa which is being disgraceful priced out to keep French farmers in business (so nothing new there).
    Ah yes sorry was thinking you meant staying. For some reason!!
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    Nobody is "unsackable"

    Just ask David Cameron (who was essentially "sacked" by the electorate)
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613
    GIN1138 said:

    Nobody is "unsackable"

    Just ask David Cameron (who was essentially "sacked" by the electorate)

    As I often say, us Labour Leavers totally won the referendum - got rid of Cam and Ozzy as well as getting Brexit.
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    HIstorically, the entire point of Conservatism was to 'keep the social order' - by making sure that the lower orders did not follow their French counterparts to revolution. Their means of doing it was to try to govern in a way that persuaded them that they were better off under patrician rule than by wrestling the reins of power away from the ruling classes.

    It would appear that nothing much has changed.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I thought only Clarkson was sacked, and May and Hammond resigned?

    Oh, sorry - wrong thread!

    I wonder if Hammond is kicking himself for not running for the leadership? Hammond v May in a members' ballot would have been interesting - he could certainly have portrayed himself as the safe pair of hands to lead the Brexit negotiations. Back in the real world, we have an autumn statement coming up - let's see how it squares with the rhetoric from conference.

    Can we please have a moratorium on Top Gear jokes? They've been done...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    It is why Hammond as next to leave the cabinet at 25/1 with Ladbrokes offers a bit of value. He may not win.

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    It is why Hammond as next to leave the cabinet at 25/1 with Ladbrokes offers a bit of value. He may not win.
    I doubt he will leave, he is resigned to not getting full single market access, he just wants the best deal he can get
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715
    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    I think Indigo has this as an advantage for leaving the Customs Union (thanks for that by the way). Unilaterally reducing import tariffs makes us wealthier as we pay less for our imports.

    There is a potential downside in that it could bankrupt farmers across the board. Unlike finance, agriculture has hardly been discussed in the Brexit context. It's a very difficult area and it impacts our WTO negotiations as well as those directly with the EU. There's a real risk of UK farmers being wiped out as they see their gate prices plummet by more than 30%.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TonyE said:

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    HIstorically, the entire point of Conservatism was to 'keep the social order' - by making sure that the lower orders did not follow their French counterparts to revolution. Their means of doing it was to try to govern in a way that persuaded them that they were better off under patrician rule than by wrestling the reins of power away from the ruling classes.

    It would appear that nothing much has changed.
    It appears to be the Liberal Centre/Left who are sneering at the lower orders because they dared to get of their sofas and vote for BrExit against the advice of their betters. BrExit was a revolution, but a revolution largely against the Liberal Centre/Left Europhile consensus that has been running this country for the last thirty years.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2016

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Or alternatively they are fed up with having their wages undercut by the decision Blair made to allow unrestricted migration from Eastern Europe without even the break most other EU nations imposed and are concerned about terrorism and want control of their country's borders. Yet the left wonders why it is losing elections!
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613

    I thought only Clarkson was sacked, and May and Hammond resigned?

    Oh, sorry - wrong thread!

    I wonder if Hammond is kicking himself for not running for the leadership? Hammond v May in a members' ballot would have been interesting - he could certainly have portrayed himself as the safe pair of hands to lead the Brexit negotiations. Back in the real world, we have an autumn statement coming up - let's see how it squares with the rhetoric from conference.

    Can we please have a moratorium on Top Gear jokes? They've been done...
    Are we allowed Hammond Organ jokes?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    I was a 'remainer', and I certainly don't ignore the people at the bottom, or treat them with contempt.

    If anything, as PB shows, leavers do that: their general support for grammar schools being a good example. Leave used these people, and cares little for them.

    IMO the main reason why the referendum was lost is simple: the EU had an offering that was unsaleable, before and after Cameron's reforms. They thought that decades of putting signs up: "This project funded by the EU." would win them love. MEPs remained faceless and unconnected with their electorate (with one or two notable good exceptions).

    In contrast, leave could play on every prejudice and problem faced by people and blame them on the EU, whether the EU was the problem or not.

    Your child doesn't have a job? Well, it's obviously the fault of the immigrants, not the fault that he is functionally illiterate and innumerate due to the UK government's failure in education over many generations.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    Watch the discussion on the polling on this in latest PB Polling Matters TV Show. It is not as clear cut as that and depends on the question wording

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Mr. HYUFD, indeed, though there's a risk that the split is observed by the EU, they take a harder line but instead of going along with it, May opts for WTO conditions.

    [Just begun re-reading Nicias' line to the Athenians about the Sicilian expedition. Hammond's at risk of repeating that error].

    May will go for WTO terms if required
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613
    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    I think Indigo has this as an advantage for leaving the Customs Union (thanks for that by the way). Unilaterally reducing import tariffs makes us wealthier as we pay less for our imports.

    There is a potential downside in that it could bankrupt farmers across the board. Unlike finance, agriculture has hardly been discussed in the Brexit context. It's a very difficult area and it impacts our WTO negotiations as well as those directly with the EU. There's a real risk of UK farmers being wiped out as they see their gate prices plummet by more than 30%.
    So they'll see the same impact as has happened to British miners, shipbuilders and steel workers. Why should Conservative-voting farmers be insulated from these international challenges?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    I thought only Clarkson was sacked, and May and Hammond resigned?

    Oh, sorry - wrong thread!

    I wonder if Hammond is kicking himself for not running for the leadership? Hammond v May in a members' ballot would have been interesting - he could certainly have portrayed himself as the safe pair of hands to lead the Brexit negotiations. Back in the real world, we have an autumn statement coming up - let's see how it squares with the rhetoric from conference.

    Can we please have a moratorium on Top Gear jokes? They've been done...
    And on that bombshell...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    If that was the case, then surely her reign at the Home Office should have ended in 2012?
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Sean_F said:

    JonathanD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Nonsense, they voted Brexit because they were overawed by Dr Liam Fox's vision of a bucaneering and Glabal Britain trading with the world. And because they wanted HMY Brittania back so the global elite could sign trade deals on her while sipping champagne.
    All sorts of explanations are put forward for the Brexit vote. The simplest and likeliest is that people think the EU is a bit crappy.
    According to the graphics half way down the page below, the overwhelming reason for voting leave was to enable the UK to regain control of its decision making.

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    I was a 'remainer', and I certainly don't ignore the people at the bottom, or treat them with contempt.

    If anything, as PB shows, leavers do that: their general support for grammar schools being a good example. Leave used these people, and cares little for them.

    IMO the main reason why the referendum was lost is simple: the EU had an offering that was unsaleable, before and after Cameron's reforms. They thought that decades of putting signs up: "This project funded by the EU." would win them love. MEPs remained faceless and unconnected with their electorate (with one or two notable good exceptions).
    The EU was trying to make people identify as European and most Brits not only don't, but are deeply sceptical of the agenda that was being pushed.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989

    Interesting news on Heathrow: it is not expected that expansion will cause EU pollution standards to be exceeded - I think NO2. The reason is that although the airport's pollution will increase, this will be countered by more efficient and less polluting road traffic.

    Does this mean that the final barrier in front of Heathrow expansion has been demolished?

    (The research was apparently independent of both the government and airport. As it was done by Cambridge University, it is obviously utterly correct and immune to criticism).

    The researchers made the heroic assumption that, over the next decade, we move from having something like 57% of London's vehicles being diesel to having ultra-clean electric vehicles throughout the capital.

    The study is allegedly independent. But the timing is suspicious. There are many objections to Heathrow. The environmental objection is just one. But it has been highlighted as the major objection and then apparently demolished just before the decision. It does remind me of "Witness for the Prosecution".
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The poem that David Blunkett liked about the Indispensable Man springs to mind:

    Sometime when you're feeling important;
    Sometime when your ego 's in bloom;
    Sometime when you take it for granted,
    You're the best qualified in the room:
    Sometime when you feel that your going,
    Would leave an unfillable hole,
    Just follow these simple instructions,
    And see how they humble your soul.

    Take a bucket and fill it with water,
    Put your hand in it up to the wrist,
    Pull it out and the hole that's remaining,
    Is a measure of how much you'll be missed.
    You can splash all you wish when you enter,
    You may stir up the water galore,
    But stop, and you'll find that in no time,
    It looks quite the same as before.

    The moral of this quaint example,
    Is to do just the best that you can,
    Be proud of yourself but remember,
    There's no indispensable man.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    If that was the case, then surely her reign at the Home Office should have ended in 2012?
    How about 'MayPoles' - then again, maybe not. Or "Buds of May"?
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    Mayflies?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,435
    edited October 2016
    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Gadfly said:

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    Mayflies?
    Do they only live a day?
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    I was a 'remainer', and I certainly don't ignore the people at the bottom, or treat them with contempt.

    If anything, as PB shows, leavers do that: their general support for grammar schools being a good example. Leave used these people, and cares little for them.

    IMO the main reason why the referendum was lost is simple: the EU had an offering that was unsaleable, before and after Cameron's reforms. They thought that decades of putting signs up: "This project funded by the EU." would win them love. MEPs remained faceless and unconnected with their electorate (with one or two notable good exceptions).

    In contrast, leave could play on every prejudice and problem faced by people and blame them on the EU, whether the EU was the problem or not.

    Your child doesn't have a job? Well, it's obviously the fault of the immigrants, not the fault that he is functionally illiterate and innumerate due to the UK government's failure in education over many generations.
    You live near Cambridge? The University did very well out of the EU, and the city as a whole was one of the big EU-winners.

    How much of the money spilled out into the Kings Hedges estate? What did they get out of the EU?

    It is not difficult to find huge resentment against the EU in Cambridge (even though the city was a Remainer stronghold). Go to the council estates in the east & north of the City.

    And that is because the benefits of being in the EU were not shared with them. Instead, the booming population caused housing shortages and soaring rents.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998
    edited October 2016
    Barnesian said:

    Interesting news on Heathrow: it is not expected that expansion will cause EU pollution standards to be exceeded - I think NO2. The reason is that although the airport's pollution will increase, this will be countered by more efficient and less polluting road traffic.

    Does this mean that the final barrier in front of Heathrow expansion has been demolished?

    (The research was apparently independent of both the government and airport. As it was done by Cambridge University, it is obviously utterly correct and immune to criticism).

    The researchers made the heroic assumption that, over the next decade, we move from having something like 57% of London's vehicles being diesel to having ultra-clean electric vehicles throughout the capital.

    The study is allegedly independent. But the timing is suspicious. There are many objections to Heathrow. The environmental objection is just one. But it has been highlighted as the major objection and then apparently demolished just before the decision. It does remind me of "Witness for the Prosecution".
    Hasn't it been timed as independent research to feed into the decision?

    It is a conclusion that tallies broadly with previous research for the government, but that research relied on estimates, whereas this latest work used more accurate, real-world measurements.

    Anyway, we shall see.
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Gadfly said:

    Incidentally, did we ever get a decision on what to call the Followers of May?

    I suggest Mayans.

    Mayflies?
    Do they only live a day?
    Maybees or Mayhems could perhaps be better options :-)
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    Nigelb said:

    Arrogant to say unsackble...

    It might be had he said it himself. Which he didn't.
    Being in a strong enough position to debate policy with the PM is hardly arrogance.

    And it's not as though he's publicly trying to bounce the PM into a particular direction on Europe, unlike the absurd Liam Fox...
    I understand that Hammond is very close to May, and also has no ambition to replace her unlike most recent Chancellors. Puts him in a strong position.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Jonathan said:

    Wonder who has Hammond in their sights and why. Friends would not call him unsackable.

    It's this plotline, isn't it?
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0720702/quotes?item=qt0245704
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,849

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2016

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    "Watch the discussion on the polling on this in latest PB Polling Matters TV Show. It is not as clear cut as that and depends on the question wording"

    Most voters would like a free trade deal and control of freedom of movement but given a forced choice prefer the latter
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    There is a double advantage to this:

    By re-creating the great Victorian Agricultural Depression*, we would need far fewer East European farm labourers, and all the disused agricultural land would become availible for housing.

    If May is serious about helping the (urban) working classes then this is what she should do.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_of_British_Agriculture?wprov=sfla1
    Don't worry Fox. The globalising Brexiters will discover the NFU in due course.
    Sounds like producer interest to me, rather than providing cheaper food to the British people (sourced from developing economies that need the money).
    Like the USA
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    You live near Cambridge? The University did very well out of the EU, and the city as a whole was one of the big EU-winners.

    How much of the money spilled out into the Kings Hedges estate? What did they get out of the EU?

    It is not difficult to find huge resentment against the EU in Cambridge (even though the city was a Remainer stronghold). Go to the council estates in the east & north of the City.

    And that is because the benefits of being in the EU were not shared with them. Instead, the booming population caused housing shortages and soaring rents.

    I do indeed live near Cambridge. And you are right: there are less well-off (and even deprived) areas of the city. Many of those people would not have been directly helped by EU projects - I cannot name any for that ward directly, but it's not an area I've researched.

    However intangibles will have helped them. Many will travel into the city for work, and some of those jobs will have been aided by EU funding - even if it is 'humble' jobs such as cleaning.

    You are right: the upward pressure on housing costs is a big problem in Cambridge, and has probably negated the intangibles.

    However, most of the problems facing people in that area are little to do with the EU, but much more to do with UK government policy.
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    Re: Heathrow "independent" research

    "This latest, million-pound research was funded by the Natural Environment Research Council and alongside Cambridge, experts from the universities of Manchester and Hertfordshire, Imperial College London, CERC Limited and the National Physics lab were involved.
    Heathrow helped them put the sensors up and British Airways provided some flight data, but neither handed over any money or were involved in the actual work."

    Independent?
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    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    Scott_P said:
    The grown ups are back in charge’ was a refrain heard frequently in Birmingham this week.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I have to say that I'm quite tickled by the emergence in British politics of a new breed: the champagne nativist.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304
    edited October 2016
    Sounds as if we're going back to grand old British tradition of PM and Chancellor forever being at loggerheads, with acrimony and paralysis as the end result. (The Dave and Ozzy years will be regarded as the refreshing but brief exception.)
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    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    It's certainly marvellous to see those who warmly applauded Osborne's speech scapegoating those on benefits lurking behind closed blinds transformed into born-again defenders of the underclass. Hallelujah.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    Can I refer to you the insightful posts of FF43 last night --

    “If Remainers had generally shown more interest in those that were left behind we would probably still be in the EU. The result was close enough that there were several factors that made the difference between remaining and leaving. That was one of them.”

    If you ignore and treat with contempt the people at the bottom, then you can’t expect them to help you when it comes to a referendum.

    I was a 'remainer', and I certainly don't ignore the people at the bottom, or treat them with contempt.

    If anything, as PB shows, leavers do that: their general support for grammar schools being a good example. Leave used these people, and cares little for them.

    IMO the main reason why the referendum was lost is simple: the EU had an offering that was unsaleable, before and after Cameron's reforms. They thought that decades of putting signs up: "This project funded by the EU." would win them love. MEPs remained faceless and unconnected with their electorate (with one or two notable good exceptions).
    The EU was trying to make people identify as European and most Brits not only don't, but are deeply sceptical of the agenda that was being pushed.
    Indeed, and that is one of the big failings of both the EU and the hardline EUphiles IMO. Their dream of a unified Europe has outmatched the desire of the populations of their member nations, and has been poorly sold. Some might say the dream is such a mess that it's impossible to sell well ...
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    Yes, she hasn't started well in my view. I said I'd wait until the conference, and it's made her government look worse.

    Such a shame.
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    Kirkup misses the growing concern about Mrs May's "big state" leanings.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/theresa-mays-first-tory-conference-as-pm-was-a-love-in-for-the-right/
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited October 2016

    HYUFD said:

    The country clearly backs freedom of movement control over the single market in most polls so that view will in the end win out but Hammond is clearly pushing May to try and get the best deal for UK business she can

    You mean that uneducated people who have no idea how trade, or any other aspect of a capitalist economy, works hate & despise anyone who isn't exactly like themselves in all respects.

    What a revolting post; I had to read it more than once to assure myself it was not a satire of someone else's opinion. First. very few people are uneducated since at the latest the Education Act of 1944. Secondly, even if they are, they get a vote. Thirdly, I am almost certainly better educated than you by a greater margin than you are better educated than the people you are sneering at, (first at Oxford, PhD, and any amount of money you like on an evens bet that those claims are true, if you want to query them) but (1) I had to google to discover how a customs union differs from a free trade area and (2) I would not dream of sneering at you, either expressly or even privately, for your obvious relative lack of education. I think you are projecting all the hating and despising here.
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    The opposition to Mrs May from the right starts. Probably down to the soggy bright blue George Freeman influence.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/05/no-prime-minister-the-government-doesnt-always-know-whats-best/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    Re: Heathrow "independent" research

    "This latest, million-pound research was funded by the Natural Environment Research Council and alongside Cambridge, experts from the universities of Manchester and Hertfordshire, Imperial College London, CERC Limited and the National Physics lab were involved.
    Heathrow helped them put the sensors up and British Airways provided some flight data, but neither handed over any money or were involved in the actual work."

    Independent?

    Urrrrm, are you saying the NERC are not independent ? If not, who should have funded the research?

    And where do you expect them to get flight data from, or to put sensors on Heathrow's land?
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    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,
    Don't forget the Le Pen seal of approval.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    What plan to "deport foreign Doctors"?

    You shouldn't believe everything you read in the Guardian!

    And what's wrong with having time limits on work permits?

    Or is the US the sink of depravity too?
    I'm waiting for the 3-5% speech bounce, the kind which makes seats 50-100 in Con targets look obtainable - the anti-May spin will be a sight to behold....
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    I think Indigo has this as an advantage for leaving the Customs Union (thanks for that by the way). Unilaterally reducing import tariffs makes us wealthier as we pay less for our imports.

    There is a potential downside in that it could bankrupt farmers across the board. Unlike finance, agriculture has hardly been discussed in the Brexit context. It's a very difficult area and it impacts our WTO negotiations as well as those directly with the EU. There's a real risk of UK farmers being wiped out as they see their gate prices plummet by more than 30%.
    So they'll see the same impact as has happened to British miners, shipbuilders and steel workers. Why should Conservative-voting farmers be insulated from these international challenges?
    Especially as farmers by and large voted for Brexit?

    However, they didn't vote to get rid of pesky foreigners just for those to flood the market and put them out of business. Rural Conservative MPs will be under a lot of pressure on this. The countryside is genuinely facing the end of a way of life
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    Yes, she hasn't started well in my view. I said I'd wait until the conference, and it's made her government look worse.

    Such a shame.
    Her target was not liberal upper middle-class PB readers but lower middle-class and working class Sun and Mail readers. On that front it went well
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    3. The UK can unilaterally drop tariffs on imported good from non-EU countries making food from non-EU countries 30% cheaper and cars from (for example) US and Japan 10% cheaper. We also will not be bound by VAT regulations so we can choose to reduce or zero rate VAT on any good imported or sold that we feel so inclined. We also get to keep ALL the duty we do collect rather than given the vast majority of it to Brussels.

    I thought that the whole essence of a Customs Union was the same (common) external tariff to countries outside it?
    I think Indigo has this as an advantage for leaving the Customs Union (thanks for that by the way). Unilaterally reducing import tariffs makes us wealthier as we pay less for our imports.

    There is a potential downside in that it could bankrupt farmers across the board. Unlike finance, agriculture has hardly been discussed in the Brexit context. It's a very difficult area and it impacts our WTO negotiations as well as those directly with the EU. There's a real risk of UK farmers being wiped out as they see their gate prices plummet by more than 30%.
    So they'll see the same impact as has happened to British miners, shipbuilders and steel workers. Why should Conservative-voting farmers be insulated from these international challenges?
    Especially as farmers by and large voted for Brexit?

    However, they didn't vote to get rid of pesky foreigners just for those to flood the market and put them out of business. Rural Conservative MPs will be under a lot of pressure on this. The countryside is genuinely facing the end of a way of life
    It really isn't. Rural areas buy local produce. Post-war mass farming might be changing, but it is not facing the end.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    ONS
    106,800 fall in Civil Service workforce since 2008 – a drop of 20.3% https://t.co/d3gpTtqIUi
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Sean_F said:

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    You really don't like Theresa May, do you?
    When Patrick O'Flynn and Arron Banks have been tweeting that the Tory conference was like UKIP's or enacting UKIP's manifesto then I'm not best pleased,

    Coupled with her plans to effectively deport from Doctors she's a pretty shitty person in my eyes.
    And yet....others are saying she has stolen Ed Miliband's clothes. To me, rather than going UKIP lite, that looks rather like somebody grabbing those elements of policy that the voters want enacted by all parties.

    As far as "effectively deporting foreign* Doctors" - oh c'mon, stop with the histrionics - she's hardly lining them up at Heathrow for the next plane out. It has long been something that has sat uncomfortably, that we have basically gone around plundering the world's medical staff, to the detriment of their domestic medicine. If we can train and retain those who enter the profession in the UK, that is a win all round in my book. But it is a policy that is going to take the best part of a decade to bear fruit.

    * I presume that "from" was a predictive text error?
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    You stick to your guns Philip and put Liam Fox in his place, you'll be a good bulwark against our unelected Prime Minister and some of her more batshit crazy appointments, David Davis & Stewart Jackson at the Brexit Department!

    I can see why Dave was considering making Hammond Chancellor if Remain had won.

    My hasn't your tone changed since you were waving flags for May a few weeks ago.

    I gather you wanted the election after all so you could have had Leadsom then, would her appointments have been less batshit crazy ? Fairly sure the good people of Maidenhead elected her as well.
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