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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s not neo-fascism, it’s the classic variety

Trump being sworn in — political cartoon gallery pic.twitter.com/bAlxBrbv2d

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williamglenn

On topic, a more measured assessment from Chris Matthews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxGPDBRUzs

MarqueeMark

That cartoon has Trump speechifying off to a tee.

Sean_F

Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

tlg86

Very good thread David. What I'd say is, don't underestimate how grown up normal people are. There is a tendency to think of people who vote for Brexit or for Trump as an angry mob. That's probably true of some, but not most. I'd suggest Trump owes his victory to his opponent(s).

Malmesbury

Hmmm. On the other hand Trump hasn't shown any interest in a private paramilitary organisation and didn't run on the platform of ending democracy.

It is worth considering that on your analysis, Hugo Chavez was a ravening Fascist...

SirNorfolkPassmore

Good article, and I broadly agree albeit I think the only response at this stage is to congratulate Trump on winning what was, after all, a democratic election... and to remain extremely vigilant for what will be a very bumpy four years at least.

Interesting to note that the present trend - of which Trump and Le Pen are both a part - comes at a time when the generation (in the West) that has any memory of what fascism was in practice has essentially died out. We are doomed to learn the lessons of history by (to some extent) repeating them.

MaxPB

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

Malmesbury

Sean_F said:

Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

F1: third practice is in about 20 minutes, with qualifying at 4pm.

MaxPB

On Le Pen. The French are now taking her very seriously where they weren't before. It has, IMO, set France down a path which leads to Frexit.

MTimT

“There are many millions of people who did not vote for Donald Trump because of the bigotry and hate that fueled his campaign rallies,” Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) said Thursday in a speech at the AFL-CIO. “They voted for him despite the hate. They voted for him out of frustration and anger — and also out of hope that he would bring change.”

My estimation of Warren has gone up leaps and bounds with this.

justin124

Did anyone notice the Opinium voting intention poll in last Sunday's Observer? It completely passed me by - perhaps being too focussed on the US election at the time. I came across it last night on Wilkipedia.
The figures were - Con 40 Lab 32 UKIP 13 LD 6 Grn 4 -a Con lead of 8 points compared with 9 points two weeks earlier.

rogerh

We have to go wider than Trump himself and ask why there are so many people who not only feel they have been left behind but also have actually been economically disadvantaged.
The culprit is the so called free market.Rather than producing "trickle down it has produced suck up with wealth shifting from the poorer to the richer".Put another way the free market maybe good at producing economic growth but it fails lamentably to distribute the rewards fairly.
We need a new world economic order that combines the advantages of free markets with mechanisms that gives a fair share to those who have been left behind.
Without this the result will be more power to right wing parties and ultimately a return to facism.

nielh

Good article. Didn't mention Poland, Hungary etc. Won't be long until a majority of countries are fascist in the classical definition.
If there was a tipping point it was the failure of the liberal west to contain Islamic fundamentalists.
Which type of tyranny do we prefer? Isis or trump? That's how people see it. That and ignorance of history.

Theuniondivvie

https://twitter.com/kenobarnes/status/796830778885713920

Of course old wooden teeth may be uncomfortable seeing a black man as POTUS.

williamglenn

rogerh said:

We have to go wider than Trump himself and ask why there are so many people who not only feel they have been left behind but also have actually been economically disadvantaged.
The culprit is the so called free market.Rather than producing "trickle down it has produced suck up with wealth shifting from the poorer to the richer".Put another way the free market maybe good at producing economic growth but it fails lamentably to distribute the rewards fairly.
We need a new world economic order that combines the advantages of free markets with mechanisms that gives a fair share to those who have been left behind.
Without this the result will be more power to right wing parties and ultimately a return to facism.

To paraphrase Gandhi, what do I think about free markets? I think they would be a good idea.

Much of the political climate now is a delayed reaction to the prevention of the operation of free markets in the 2007-8 crash. People feel a visceral unfairness that, at all levels of society, the responsible were expected to bail out the irresponsible.

MTimT

Blimey, looks like Hameed's test average is about to overtake Root's!

nielh

Of course we should try and work with trump but be careful to avoid being over enthusiastic about his victory. We just have to accept it for what it is and of course we have to work together. The days of lecturing other countries about domestic affairs are over.

YellowSubmarine

It's an excellent piece David H for which I'm very grateful. It puts it's finger on an immediate problem which is creeping normalcy. American Presidential campaigns are very long. If we couple how long we've had to get used to his behaviour with the fact it's just been endorsed in a democratic election we can forget it's abnormal. His campaign was not normal. It was entirely outside the norms of Western liberal democracies. It certainly meets a number of criteria of the normal usage of " fascist ". If it's too early to tell if Trump is a fascist or not it's clear imho he's capable if sustained fascistic behaviour. Weather isn't automatically Climate but weather can turn out to be in keeping with Climate.

In short too many folk ( especially on here ) are arguing thatvthe fact he won shows he campaign behaviour wasn't fascistic. That's a non sequitur. It may just be that a fascistic campaign has now won.

kjohnw

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.

Cookie

Good article. Particularly liked this bit:

"Fascist. It’s a word that could have been designed to be spat out as an insult. The first syllable invites you to screw up your face and the second is little more than a glorified hiss. And a very good insult it is, one that’s easily thrown at anyone seeking to implement liberty-curtailing or discriminatory policies.

The problem is that’s it’s been so readily used as an insult for so long that it’s easy to miss the real thing when it rears its ugly head. "

I'd argue that the same is true of the words 'racist' and 'sexist'. These words have been banded around so carelessly and to describe, in many cases, such innocuous behaviour that they have been rendered meaningless - they essentially mean behaviour of which the user of the word disapproves. The words have lost their power; the first reaction to them is an eye-roll: what are the terminally outraged outraged about now? - so when they get used about behaviour which maybe people genuinely should take note of, people tune out.

Sean_F

Malmesbury said:

Sean_F said:

Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.

Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.

IanB2

"Populists are not fascists. They prefer trade wars to actual wars; administrative border walls to more defensible fortifications. The maladies they seek to cure are not imaginary: uncontrolled rising immigration, widening inequality, free trade with “unfree” countries, and political cronyism are all things that a substantial section of the electorate have some reason to dislike. The problem with populism is that its remedies are wrong and, in fact, counterproductive."

http://www.cirsd.org/en/horizons/horizons-autumn-2016--issue-no-8/populism-as-a-backlash-against-globalization

AnneJGP

A thought-provoking thread header, David, and if I may say so, one to be given the more thought because you are the author. Experience suggests you don't throw such observations around lightly.

(Edited to add: good afternoon, everyone)

foxinsoxuk

kjohnw said:

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.

Those Leavers who hold the High Court in contempt are certainly acting in a Fascistic way.

Richard_Tyndall

MTimT said:

Blimey, looks like Hameed's test average is about to overtake Root's!

Absolutely but it doesn't count until he has played 20? Test innings.

nielh

YellowSubmarine said:

It's an excellent piece David H for which I'm very grateful. It puts it's finger on an immediate problem which is creeping normalcy. American Presidential campaigns are very long. If we couple how long we've had to get used to his behaviour with the fact it's just been endorsed in a democratic election we can forget it's abnormal. His campaign was not normal. It was entirely outside the norms of Western liberal democracies. It certainly meets a number of criteria of the normal usage of " fascist ". If it's too early to tell if Trump is a fascist or not it's clear imho he's capable if sustained fascistic behaviour. Weather isn't automatically Climate but weather can turn out to be in keeping with Climate.

In short too many folk ( especially on here ) are arguing thatvthe fact he won shows he campaign behaviour wasn't fascistic. That's a non sequitur. It may just be that a fascistic campaign has now won.

It is creeping normalcy - well put.
People are asleep. My colleagues reaction to crimea in 2014 was " shit I don't want to go to war"
Syria - shit I don't want to get called up.
Not difficult to see how this ends

SirNorfolkPassmore

Interesting to review Umberto Eco's 14 general principles of fascism. Many, but not all, are pretty clearly checked:

1. Action for action's sake. Check - wall, Muslim ban etc.

2. Disagreement is treason. Check - that's certainly been the tone, and indeed the terminology for many.

3. Fear of difference. No argument this is central.

4. Obsession with "plots". Check - birtherism; belief election was being stolen; all this nonsense about the Khans and various beauty queens.

5. Frustrated middle class. Absolutely - worked on fear both of the "inner cities" (blacks) and elites.

6. Enemies BOTH too strong and too weak. Check - Clinton was apparently BOTH an evil criminal genius and a physical wreck.

7. Machismo/misogyny. Well, quite.

8. Contempt for the weak. This is a big part of Trump's rhetoric - constantly evoking supposed weakness of people he disagrees with.

9. Selective populism. This is the idea there is a common will of "the People" which is invoked against any individual views - certainly seems to be some element of this in Trump, especially in approach to violence against protesters at his rallies.

10. Newspeak. This is absolutely part of Trumpism - he is actually quite a smart guy, but deliberately impoverishes his language to the extent that the transcripts of his speeches are frequently meaningless.

11. Everyone is a hero/cult of death. To a degree - the references to people taking it into their own hands if Hillary won. But less so than other elements.

12. Permanent warfare. To a degree - let's see who the new enemy is post-Clinton. He's more conciliatory on some aspects of actual war though.

13. Rejection of modernism. There's certainly some of this in the rhetoric, although in a sense his own well known moral weaknesses mean he hasn't really played up the idea of the moral descent of man that much.

14. Cult of tradition. Maybe less so than other elements.

Theuniondivvie

Sean_F said:

Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

Speaking of Huey..

"If fascism ever comes to America, it will come wrapped in an American flag."

Dadge

Trump's platform had fascist overtones, e.g. massive infrastructure programme, build-up of the military. It surprises me when Britons defend Trump even though they disagree with those policies and beliefs that are somewhat fascistic.

Scott_P

Interesting line up

@RobBurl: @jeremycorbyn on Trump and more, Marine Le Pen, @crispinbluntmp and Sir Stuart Peach, Chief of The Defence Staff

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, Miss JGP.

AnneJGP

Morris_Dancer said:

Good afternoon, everyone.

F1: third practice is in about 20 minutes, with qualifying at 4pm.

Mr Dancer, I do love your F1 interjections. They are so reassuring as they crop up at regular intervals, like those marker-poles at the side of snow-drifted roads. Or the slow beat of a bass drum, keeping us in touch with sanity.

rottenborough

The trouble is, as Kevin Passmore (prof and author of books on Fascism) writes in the Guardain:

"Yet whatever the similarities, we should think twice before interpreting the present as a re-enactment of the past.

For one thing, fascism is notoriously hard to define. Decades of research have not enabled academics to agree on a definition."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/07/donald-trump-nigel-farage-fascists-intolerance

Note that the Guardian published this article - not all their contributors are jumping on the lazy idea that this is just a rerun of 1930s German all over again.

Other contributors to this debate:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/absurd-call-trump-fascist/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/02/is_donald_trump_a_fascist_an_expert_on_fascism_weighs_in.html

Morris_Dancer

Miss JGP, the melodic milestones of motorsport are a reassuring presence.

YellowSubmarine

We called it racism, now it’s nativism. The anti-migrant sentiment is just the same

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/12/nativism-racism-anti-migrant-sentiment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Richard_Tyndall

I am a long way from a lefty and I don't like the knee jerk labelling of people as fascist but I must admit if my views have changed at all this week it is simply from believing I was right and Trump is genuinely dangerous to fervently hoping I was wrong and have misjudged him because of all the media hype. So far I have clung to a few straws but not really seen anything to change my view of him.

Personally I don't view populism as a fundamentally bad thing as long as it is tempered by compassion and tolerance. It is on that score that I believe Trump completely fails.

foxinsoxuk

IanB2 said:

"Populists are not fascists. They prefer trade wars to actual wars; administrative border walls to more defensible fortifications. The maladies they seek to cure are not imaginary: uncontrolled rising immigration, widening inequality, free trade with “unfree” countries, and political cronyism are all things that a substantial section of the electorate have some reason to dislike. The problem with populism is that its remedies are wrong and, in fact, counterproductive."

http://www.cirsd.org/en/horizons/horizons-autumn-2016--issue-no-8/populism-as-a-backlash-against-globalization

A truly excellent and erudite article. Thanks for the link.

HYUFD

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

IanB2

nielh said:

Good article. Didn't mention Poland, Hungary etc. Won't be long until a majority of countries are fascist in the classical definition.
If there was a tipping point it was the failure of the liberal west to contain Islamic fundamentalists.
Which type of tyranny do we prefer? Isis or trump? That's how people see it. That and ignorance of history.

Mmm. I am not convinced they are that worried about muslim immigrants or muslim terrorism in Rustville, Ohio. It's (mostly) 'the economy, stupid'.

Pong

AnneJGP said:

A thought-provoking thread header, David, and if I may say so, one to be given the more thought because you are the author. Experience suggests you don't throw such observations around lightly.

(Edited to add: good afternoon, everyone)

I agree.

It's a powerful piece. I really respect David for writing it.

TheWhiteRabbit

I've written a thread header on the French primary race, but since I don't know when, an update:

75% of the French oppose Trump.

The effect of the second primary debate (and/or Trump - the fieldwork was Wednesday onwards) was to move votes from Juppé to Fillon, i.e. one centre-right to another (Juppé 36%, Sarkozy 26%, Fillon 20%). Most of these votes come home to Juppé in the second round (now 57 v 43 among all voters).

I can't see an updated overall 2017 presidential election poll but I can't see any justification on these figures for believe Le Pen will add anything more than a point or two to her 30-32%.

PlatoSaid

Cookie said:

Good article. Particularly liked this bit:

"Fascist. It’s a word that could have been designed to be spat out as an insult. The first syllable invites you to screw up your face and the second is little more than a glorified hiss. And a very good insult it is, one that’s easily thrown at anyone seeking to implement liberty-curtailing or discriminatory policies.

The problem is that’s it’s been so readily used as an insult for so long that it’s easy to miss the real thing when it rears its ugly head. "

I'd argue that the same is true of the words 'racist' and 'sexist'. These words have been banded around so carelessly and to describe, in many cases, such innocuous behaviour that they have been rendered meaningless - they essentially mean behaviour of which the user of the word disapproves. The words have lost their power; the first reaction to them is an eye-roll: what are the terminally outraged outraged about now? - so when they get used about behaviour which maybe people genuinely should take note of, people tune out.

There's an excellent intv with Milo on how the Left - having captured *gays* they aren't interested in them anymore. Despite his colourful behaviour, I find it very hard to disagree with much of what he says.

Wind forward to 39mins in - before that bit it's still fascinating about GamerGate and other stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FvADt-mJ_o

weejonnie

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

The storm-troopers seem to be Hillary Clinton Supporters - just a point.

MaxPB

YellowSubmarine said:

We called it racism, now it’s nativism. The anti-migrant sentiment is just the same

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/12/nativism-racism-anti-migrant-sentiment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

It's not so much anti-foreigner so much as it is looking after our own first. Until you liberals understand that people want to look after number one before they take in the world's underpaid, then you'll be on the losing side of elections.

HYUFD

weejonnie said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

The storm-troopers seem to be Hillary Clinton Supporters - just a point.

The protestors, the storm-troopers would presumably come after Trump's inauguration (not that I think Trump actually is a Fascist but nonetheless some interesting comments from the late author)

Malmesbury

Dadge said:

Trump's platform had fascist overtones, e.g. massive infrastructure programme, build-up of the military. It surprises me when Britons defend Trump even though they disagree with those policies and beliefs that are somewhat fascistic.

Dadge said:

Trump's platform had fascist overtones, e.g. massive infrastructure programme, build-up of the military. It surprises me when Britons defend Trump even though they disagree with those policies and beliefs that are somewhat fascistic.

It might interest you to know that FDR worried many on the same score - massive government expansion - in the Democratic Party!. An interesting what-if would be if the court packing plan had succeeded....

MaxPB

Richard_Tyndall said:

I am a long way from a lefty and I don't like the knee jerk labelling of people as fascist but I must admit if my views have changed at all this week it is simply from believing I was right and Trump is genuinely dangerous to fervently hoping I was wrong and have misjudged him because of all the media hype. So far I have clung to a few straws but not really seen anything to change my view of him.

Personally I don't view populism as a fundamentally bad thing as long as it is tempered by compassion and tolerance. It is on that score that I believe Trump completely fails.

This is pretty much along the lines of what I think as well, but the issue is that we have to deal with the reality of President Trump. Even if he does turn out to be the kind of leader we hope he isn't, we still need to find a way of working with him and bending his will on NATO, ensuring that he doesn't throw up protectionist barriers against UK trade which is perpetually in surplus with the US like China or Mexico.

GeoffM

AnneJGP said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Good afternoon, everyone.

F1: third practice is in about 20 minutes, with qualifying at 4pm.

Mr Dancer, I do love your F1 interjections. They are so reassuring as they crop up at regular intervals, like those marker-poles at the side of snow-drifted roads. Or the slow beat of a bass drum, keeping us in touch with sanity.

Agree. After a ridiculous header and a thread full of supportive virtue signalling of the most depressing kind it's great to see the occasional oasis of reality.

Mr Herdson; you need to give your head a wobble.

IanB2

HYUFD said:

weejonnie said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

The storm-troopers seem to be Hillary Clinton Supporters - just a point.

The protestors, the storm-troopers would presumably come after Trump's inauguration (not that I think Trump actually is a Fascist but nonetheless some interesting comments from the late author)

Last night's earlier-than-usual Newsnight did interview some volunteer militia folk on training with their automatic weapons in the woods last week for the violent aftermath to the election that they were expecting. But it was clear they are just another small part of America's well developed lunatic fringe.

perdix

foxinsoxuk said:

kjohnw said:

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.

Those Leavers who hold the High Court in contempt are certainly acting in a Fascistic way.

Nonsense.

HYUFD

TheWhiteRabbit said:

I've written a thread header on the French primary race, but since I don't know when, an update:

75% of the French oppose Trump.

The effect of the second primary debate (and/or Trump - the fieldwork was Wednesday onwards) was to move votes from Juppé to Fillon, i.e. one centre-right to another (Juppé 36%, Sarkozy 26%, Fillon 20%). Most of these votes come home to Juppé in the second round (now 57 v 43 among all voters).

I can't see an updated overall 2017 presidential election poll but I can't see any justification on these figures for believe Le Pen will add anything more than a point or two to her 30-32%.

Most Brits oppose Trump too, they still voted for Brexit because Trump was an American expression of the same forces, just Boris and Le Pen are better exponents of it in their own countries. In some ways Le Pen would prefer to face Juppe than Sarkozy, Sarkozy at least is listening to some of these forces and made a measured response to Trump's election and Brexit, Juppe is the Clinton and Cameron of France, he is the epitome of the privileged elite, like Clinton he has a shady past and lacks charisma and he has condemned Trump's election and is very much a creature of the old Europhile establishment. I think Le Pen could beat him in round 1, in round 2 I expect Juppe would scrape home but the French establishment would be given a massive fright. As for polls, as recent elections and Brexit showed, there is probably a 'shy Le Pen' vote so you should add at least a couple of points to whatever she is polling

GeoffM

perdix said:

foxinsoxuk said:

kjohnw said:

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.

Those Leavers who hold the High Court in contempt are certainly acting in a Fascistic way.

Nonsense.

To be fair - this whole thread is a tsunami of nonsense so it fits in quite nicely.

PlatoSaid

I'm clearly living in a parallel universe. Fascist?

Nope. It's silly OTTness worthy of the cry bullies demanding the overturn of a democratic election.

IanB2

perdix said:

foxinsoxuk said:

kjohnw said:

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.

Those Leavers who hold the High Court in contempt are certainly acting in a Fascistic way.

Nonsense.

Attacking a legal judgement for the background and personal lives of the judges - as the Daily Mail did - and trying to incite a mob to march upon their homes - as a handful of UKIP voices did - are certainly features of history that we should endeavour to avoid repeating.

Jonathan

PlatoSaid said:

I'm clearly living in a parallel universe.

Yup

PlatoSaid

Pew Research
Voters saw little progress made since 2008 in jobs, security, immigration and crime https://t.co/b9FkKcVBCp https://t.co/mMmlSiYPLn

FrancisUrquhart

That cartoon misses out...its going to be hugggggeeeeee....also "WROOOOONG".....

Jonathan

FrancisUrquhart said:

That cartoon misses out...its going to be hugggggeeeeee....also "WROOOOONG".....

It's gonna be beautiful.

weejonnie

"But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

MikeK

Good Afternoon all.

Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

Trump has done the following:
1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

I could go on, but you get my drift.

So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

Who are the real Fascists here?

Stark_Dawning

An utterly convincing piece - Trump and his supporters are definitely fascists. The only thing I find curious is the reluctance of his supporters to admit that they're fascists. This can only be a tactical ploy - they don't want to give their opponents a stick to be them - or a simple queasiness about the term. I've not heard the Trump supporters cite a single fact to falsify the notion that they're fascists. Yes, they bleat on a lot about the PC consensus, but that's a distraction rather than a refutation.

FrancisUrquhart

Jonathan said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

That cartoon misses out...its going to be hugggggeeeeee....also "WROOOOONG".....

It's gonna be beautiful.

Bigly Beautiful....

PlatoSaid

Jonathan said:

PlatoSaid said:

I'm clearly living in a parallel universe.

Yup

I called it right months in advance. It's pointless asking the opinions of UK voters what they think since they've no effing idea about US culture, and fed a horror movie diet by all the MSM.

GeoffM

IanB2 said:

perdix said:

foxinsoxuk said:

kjohnw said:

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.

Those Leavers who hold the High Court in contempt are certainly acting in a Fascistic way.

Nonsense.

Attacking a legal judgement for the background and personal lives of the judges - as the Daily Mail did - and trying to incite a mob to march upon their homes - as a handful of UKIP voices did - are certainly features of history that we should endeavour to avoid repeating.

This "mob" ... which didn't happen. Was it bigger or smaller than the smoke-bomb throwing scum outside Boris Johnsons house in July?

The Foreign Secretary was not at home at the time but one protester remarked that if Boris were to return, he would 'probably be killed'.

MaxPB

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/11/tesco-criticised-after-refusing-to-allow-young-mother-free-parki/

EU gets in the way of free parking at Tesco.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Dawning, how are you defining supporter? Do you think just under half of voting Americans are fascist?

weejonnie

HYUFD said:

weejonnie said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

The storm-troopers seem to be Hillary Clinton Supporters - just a point.

The protestors, the storm-troopers would presumably come after Trump's inauguration (not that I think Trump actually is a Fascist but nonetheless some interesting comments from the late author)

Oh I agree - the thing is, it is one author and his words are interpreted as you wish.

FWIW - IMHO the 'storm troopers' etc were probably only effective because Germany Government was so weak, with its armed forces being castrated after World-War 1. Any 'organised' storm trooping would meet the USA National Guard, who are not known for pussyfooting around.

In the meantime Democrats are trying to storm Trump Towers.

GeoffM

MikeK said:

Good Afternoon all.

Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.
[snip]
Who are the real Fascists here?

Have a Like for an excellent post.

HYUFD

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

weejonnie said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

The storm-troopers seem to be Hillary Clinton Supporters - just a point.

The protestors, the storm-troopers would presumably come after Trump's inauguration (not that I think Trump actually is a Fascist but nonetheless some interesting comments from the late author)

Last night's earlier-than-usual Newsnight did interview some volunteer militia folk on training with their automatic weapons in the woods last week for the violent aftermath to the election that they were expecting. But it was clear they are just another small part of America's well developed lunatic fringe.

I think they were more expecting a Clinton victory as you suggest

Theuniondivvie

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

weejonnie said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/796830155666812928

The storm-troopers seem to be Hillary Clinton Supporters - just a point.

The protestors, the storm-troopers would presumably come after Trump's inauguration (not that I think Trump actually is a Fascist but nonetheless some interesting comments from the late author)

Last night's earlier-than-usual Newsnight did interview some volunteer militia folk on training with their automatic weapons in the woods last week for the violent aftermath to the election that they were expecting. But it was clear they are just another small part of America's well developed lunatic fringe.

Yep, saw that. It's certainly a different mindset that sees heavily armed amateurs skulking about in unforms as the antidote to fascism.

At the end there was a discussion involving the Spectator US editor, Emmett Tyrrell. He was SPECTACULARLY stupid.

Paristonda

TheWhiteRabbit said:

I've written a thread header on the French primary race, but since I don't know when, an update:

75% of the French oppose Trump.

The effect of the second primary debate (and/or Trump - the fieldwork was Wednesday onwards) was to move votes from Juppé to Fillon, i.e. one centre-right to another (Juppé 36%, Sarkozy 26%, Fillon 20%). Most of these votes come home to Juppé in the second round (now 57 v 43 among all voters).

I can't see an updated overall 2017 presidential election poll but I can't see any justification on these figures for believe Le Pen will add anything more than a point or two to her 30-32%.

Most Americans saw Trump unfavourably, and voted for him anyway. There's a difference between opposing Trump the candidate (a narcissistic mysognist/racist etc) and opposing his policy proposals / what he wants to achieve.

What's the fundamental difference between French people and Brits/Americans that they won't vote for an anti-globalist/populist candidate/referendum?

The electoral system has held against the FN so far, but MLP knows that her route to power is to convince ordinary socialist party voters that they are better off backing her in round 2 than Juppé - accordingly her campaign will focus strongly on protectionism/frexit, and less on anti-Muslim policies

IanB2

MikeK said:

Good Afternoon all.

Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

Trump has done the following:
1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

I could go on, but you get my drift.

So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

Who are the real Fascists here?

TBF there was likely to be some trouble in America whichever the result, and I suspect the potential violence had Clinton won would have been more dangerous. US society is more sharply divided and with a deeply concerning racial dimension than ours.

I do prefer Ferguson's take on it in the article I linked below - populism has a few things in common with but is not fascism; it lacks its militarism, violence and racial scapegoating - but is equally misguided and, when it fails, dangerous, all the same

Richard_Nabavi

A powerful and beautifully-written piece by David; clearly it is written from the heart.

Is he right, though? I don't think so. I can see that in the right (or perhaps I should say 'wrong') circumstances, a Trump-style victory and presidency could develop into fascism, but there are lots of reasons to be confident that that won't happen in twenty-first-century America. As David concedes in his penultimate paragraph, there are hugely powerful institutional protections in the US which will prevent a crazy populist victory morphing into something much darker. As others have said, Trump seems to be more Berlusconi than Mussolini.

PlatoSaid

weejonnie said:

"But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

He also said with regard to the Mexican heritage judge that he would be potentially biased in adjudicating in a case about Mexicans. That seems to me like an entirely legitimate legal defence position.

If we substitute a Scottish heritage judge making a decision on a golf course case - he'd have made the same argument. It's not racist FFS - it's about the emotional pressure a judge may experience if they go against the expectations of their family/cultural diaspora.

Stark_Dawning

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Dawning, how are you defining supporter? Do you think just under half of voting Americans are fascist?

Yes, that's what you'd have to conclude. I suppose you could argue that a willing enabler of fascism need not be a fascist himself, but that seems to me a philosophical quibble.

IanB2

Richard_Nabavi said:

A powerful and beautifully-written piece by David; clearly it is written from the heart.

Is he right, though? I don't think so. I can see that in the right (or perhaps I should say 'wrong') circumstances, a Trump-style victory and presidency could develop into fascism, but there are lots of reasons to be confident that that won't happen in twenty-first-century America. As David concedes in his penultimate paragraph, there are hugely powerful institutional protections in the US which will prevent a crazy populist victory morphing into something much darker. As others have said, Trump seems to be more Berlusconi than Mussolini.

Even to the extent that some, both inside and beyond Italy, said that Berlusconi was fascist!

Charles

Sean_F said:

Malmesbury said:

Sean_F said:

Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.

Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.

Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.

David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Dawning, you could argue, even if you believe Trump's a fascist, that if they believe Clinton is a criminal, it's a choice of two knaves.

Jonathan

Maybe it's too early to say what Trump is gicen he has not done anything yet, but it's pretty clear what he is not.

He is not a socialist (obviously)
He is not a conservative
He is not a liberal
He is not a democrat (having said he will accept the result if he wins)

So what's left?

A pragmatist?
A nihilist?
A nationalist?
A demagogue?

Maybe. Maybe it goes further. We'll see soon enough.

MaxPB

Jonathan said:

Maybe it's too early to say what Trump is gicen he has not done anything yet, but it's pretty clear what he is not.

He is not a socialist (obviously)
He is not a conservative
He is not a liberal
He is not a democrat (having said he will accept the result if he wins)

So what's left?

A pragmatist?
A nihilist?
A nationalist?
A demagogue?

Maybe. Maybe it goes further. We'll see soon enough.

I think he is a populist demagogue.

IanB2

MaxPB said:

Jonathan said:

Maybe it's too early to say what Trump is gicen he has not done anything yet, but it's pretty clear what he is not.

He is not a socialist (obviously)
He is not a conservative
He is not a liberal
He is not a democrat (having said he will accept the result if he wins)

So what's left?

A pragmatist?
A nihilist?
A nationalist?
A demagogue?

Maybe. Maybe it goes further. We'll see soon enough.

I think he is a populist demagogue.

He could just be ambitious, self-interested, cynical, and somewhat cleverer than initially appears to be the case?

Edit/ All these labels assume he has some big agenda for the US and the world; we just need to work out what it might be.

Maybe he just wants the job and the profile for himself?

Twice he is on record as saying he will leave the domestic policy and foreign affairs mostly to his deputy.

MTimT

Richard_Tyndall said:

MTimT said:

Blimey, looks like Hameed's test average is about to overtake Root's!

Absolutely but it doesn't count until he has played 20? Test innings.

Yep. I was not being entirely serious, but it is great to see a youngster start off so well.

Richard_Nabavi

MaxPB said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/11/tesco-criticised-after-refusing-to-allow-young-mother-free-parki/

EU gets in the way of free parking at Tesco.

I think that's the funniest story for weeks.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. B2, people can surprise when they get the top job. Julian the Apostate exceeded all expectations. Galba did not.

taffys

I think he is a populist demagogue.

I think there's a bit more to it than that. Trump is smarter than the average populist demagogue.

Stark_Dawning

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Dawning, you could argue, even if you believe Trump's a fascist, that if they believe Clinton is a criminal, it's a choice of two knaves.

'Opt for the lesser of two evils' is a surprisingly maligned ethical position.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Dawning, quite, especially when you consider the alternative (who would opt for the greater of two evils?).

PlatoSaid

ICYMI

Sweary but funny

https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs

Stark_Dawning

Richard_Nabavi said:

MaxPB said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/11/tesco-criticised-after-refusing-to-allow-young-mother-free-parki/

EU gets in the way of free parking at Tesco.

I think that's the funniest story for weeks.

Yes, that was headlining the Daily Mail too. Whatever will they do when their beloved EU is no longer around?

Theuniondivvie

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Dawning, how are you defining supporter? Do you think just under half of voting Americans are fascist?

Only 0.001%.
Apparently.

MTimT

MaxPB said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

I am a long way from a lefty and I don't like the knee jerk labelling of people as fascist but I must admit if my views have changed at all this week it is simply from believing I was right and Trump is genuinely dangerous to fervently hoping I was wrong and have misjudged him because of all the media hype. So far I have clung to a few straws but not really seen anything to change my view of him.

Personally I don't view populism as a fundamentally bad thing as long as it is tempered by compassion and tolerance. It is on that score that I believe Trump completely fails.

This is pretty much along the lines of what I think as well, but the issue is that we have to deal with the reality of President Trump. Even if he does turn out to be the kind of leader we hope he isn't, we still need to find a way of working with him and bending his will on NATO, ensuring that he doesn't throw up protectionist barriers against UK trade which is perpetually in surplus with the US like China or Mexico.

I think the thing that has been missing from David's header and most of the comments to it is that Trump is not operating in a vacuum as the sole source of political power in the country. The USA is not Italy or Germany in the 30s. Yes, there is a dysfunctional Congress, but its dysfunction arises from the fact that each House and the Judiciary take their civic responsibilities under the Constitution very seriously and fiercely protect them.

If Trump starts to act fascistically once inaugurated, there will be no end of people on both the left and right, from each House, the judiciary, and civil society, lining up to bring him down.

DavidL

Malmesbury said:

Sean_F said:

Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.

I would say that Huey Long had very strong fascist tendencies. Trump? Not so much.

williamglenn

IanB2 said:

Twice he is on record as saying he will leave the domestic policy and foreign affairs mostly to his deputy.

He is on record?

Alistair

Clucking heck, I know it's only rugby league but Scotland drew with New Zealand.Stunned

ThreeQuidder

I take this seriously because it's David, but one of my "good things about Trump winning" (I never did get round to writing out the full list) is that Trump is going to get a whole lot more scrutiny than Clinton would have, and so is paradoxically less likely to cause major damage.

david_herdson

MaxPB said:

Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

And your evidence for that is?

I'm not looking at this through the liberal group think. That was why I opened by dismissing the description as insult.

What we shouldn't do is rule out of hand descriptions simply because they're beyond the normal discourse. The fact is that Trump is beyond normal politics.

Admittedly, as Malmesbury has said, he doesn't have a paramilitary organisation and isn't explicitly aiming to overturn democracy. But then the former doesn't change what he is; it just makes him less effective in implementing it. And his unwillingness to commit himself to accept the result suggests at least an inclination to ignore democracy, due process and the rule of law - and that wasn't his only such comment: 'jail Hillary' was of the same nature.

Did he mean it? In a sense it doesn't matter. His willingness to play to that gallery defines what he sees as acceptable limits.

FrancisUrquhart

Silly factoid....all those stories on website issues, traffic on Canadian immigration website was higher in 2008 than 2016.

HYUFD

Paristonda said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

I've written a thread header on the French primary race, but since I don't know when, an update:

75% of the French oppose Trump.

The effect of the second primary debate (and/or Trump - the fieldwork was Wednesday onwards) was to move votes from Juppé to Fillon, i.e. one centre-right to another (Juppé 36%, Sarkozy 26%, Fillon 20%). Most of these votes come home to Juppé in the second round (now 57 v 43 among all voters).

I can't see an updated overall 2017 presidential election poll but I can't see any justification on these figures for believe Le Pen will add anything more than a point or two to her 30-32%.

Most Americans saw Trump unfavourably, and voted for him anyway. There's a difference between opposing Trump the candidate (a narcissistic mysognist/racist etc) and opposing his policy proposals / what he wants to achieve.

What's the fundamental difference between French people and Brits/Americans that they won't vote for an anti-globalist/populist candidate/referendum?

The electoral system has held against the FN so far, but MLP knows that her route to power is to convince ordinary socialist party voters that they are better off backing her in round 2 than Juppé - accordingly her campaign will focus strongly on protectionism/frexit, and less on anti-Muslim policies

Yes, in round 2 Juppe would win a landslide in Paris, just as Clinton won New York and California by a landslide and Remain won London comfortably. However Le Pen will focus her campaign against Juppe on industrial areas in the north, especially around the Pas de Calais, working class socialist areas, rural, traditionalist parts of the south and the Cote d'Azur which is Sarkozy country

MonikerDiCanio

MikeK said:

Good Afternoon all.

Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

Trump has done the following:
1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

I could go on, but you get my drift.

So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

Who are the real Fascists here?

Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.