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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » … Meanwhile back in Richmond Park there could be a new poll in

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited November 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » … Meanwhile back in Richmond Park there could be a new poll in next day or so

Zac's anti LHR3 by-election campaign gets weirder. He's recruited pro-3rd runway, fellow Etonian, Jacob Rees Mogg, as one of his advocates pic.twitter.com/giawR2P462

Read the full story here


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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week
  • Options
    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited November 2016
    This is the Big One. The US government vs the global scientific consensus, the global environmental movement, China, the EU and what PB would call the global ' liberal elite ' * It'll dwarf the War on Terror as a global Kulturkampf. At least the War on Terror had initial provocation in 9/11. The anti globalised will provoke the first globalised political campaign in History. Buckle up.

    * Oxfam, Big Tech, the Pope, the WEF. Fellow travellers like those. >

    Trump looking at quickest way to quit Paris climate agreement, says report

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/13/trump-looking-at-quickest-way-to-quit-paris-climate-agreement-says-report?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Fascinating that the betting on the presidential election continues. The Trump vote %age market is still active - the money is on him slipping under 47% - and so is the turnout market.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.125798504
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited November 2016
    Fifth like Labour, and toilet paper

    Hopefully the good people of Richmond will want to make a stand against the global march of populism.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    The Women's equality party has decided not to stand, in favour of the LibDem.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited November 2016
    Andrew Rawnsley is worried: consoling ourselves that Trump is a liar is no consolation. And that the Uk's mid-pond alternative to Europe will be an illusion.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/13/donald-trump-election-terrifying-president-global-economy-security
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2016
    I'm glad someone is having a good time in New York:

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/797584449047265281

    How the heck did Hillary Clinton and the Democrats managed to lose the working class to a man covered with gold ?
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    @Speedy I'm pleased we've got to the Golden Lift picture. Leave were extremely careful to keep Farage in his box during the referendum and wisely so. He is now out of his box. Brexiters are also keen to deny Trump and Brexit are linked. It's extremely helpful and considerate of Farage to helpfully tweet an iconic image showing that Brexit/Trumpism are interlinked projects of the transatlantic right. One to keep handy.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    @Speedy I'm pleased we've got to the Golden Lift picture. Leave were extremely careful to keep Farage in his box during the referendum and wisely so. He is now out of his box. Brexiters are also keen to deny Trump and Brexit are linked. It's extremely helpful and considerate of Farage to helpfully tweet an iconic image showing that Brexit/Trumpism are interlinked projects of the transatlantic right. One to keep handy.

    I don't think I've seen people on here denying that the two are linked.. they quite clearly are!
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    The RP by-election is all about ZG's ego. End of story.
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    Appears to be little gold: Just shyte lighting. Over-the-top, yes: As illuminating as a Lib-Dhimmie bar-chart.
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    The RP by-election is all about ZG's ego. End of story.

    It's a con. He's fulfilled his promise of resigning only to stand again as an Independent In Name Only. He's still a Tory, they're not standing against him and his local party and Tory friends are backing him.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    If Zac's good enough for the Moggster, he's good enough for me.
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    If Zac's good enough for the Moggster, he's good enough for me.

    So, no change there.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    The RP by-election is all about ZG's ego. End of story.

    It's a con. He's fulfilled his promise of resigning only to stand again as an Independent In Name Only. He's still a Tory, they're not standing against him and his local party and Tory friends are backing him.
    I imagine that was always the intention, it's a by the letter not the spirit kind of promise. A shame, as It'd be an interesting contest otherwise.
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    @Speedy I'm pleased we've got to the Golden Lift picture. Leave were extremely careful to keep Farage in his box during the referendum and wisely so. He is now out of his box. Brexiters are also keen to deny Trump and Brexit are linked. It's extremely helpful and considerate of Farage to helpfully tweet an iconic image showing that Brexit/Trumpism are interlinked projects of the transatlantic right. One to keep handy.

    And, as we know, where Farage goes Theresa May and the Tory right will follow. Brexit is inevtiably all about cuddling up to anyone out there who will give us a hearing. The problem with Trump, though (apart from all the obvious ones) is that he wants less free trade, not more.

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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    edited November 2016
    IanB2 said:

    The Women's equality party has decided not to stand, in favour of the LibDem.

    Game changer?
  • Options
    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Still significantly better than what sits opposite them in the Commons.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Still significantly better than what sits opposite them in the Commons.
    When, in your opinion, was that last not so?

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Still significantly better than what sits opposite them in the Commons.

    Beyond Hammond, I no longer think that's true. Corbyn is a firewall, of course, but the quality of the cabinet is extraordinarily low. The Tories are more presentable, but in terms of intellect and vision they are utterly mediocre.

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    IanB2 said:

    Andrew Rawnsley is worried: consoling ourselves that Trump is a liar is no consolation. And that the Uk's mid-pond alternative to Europe will be an illusion.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/13/donald-trump-election-terrifying-president-global-economy-security

    Oh dear, how sad, an opinion from one of the lost generation of the commentariat.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Still significantly better than what sits opposite them in the Commons.
    When, in your opinion, was that last not so?

    You mean you disagree with me? I was just winding up SO (who I genuinely feel sorry for), that no matter how rubbish the Tories are, there is no danger of them losing power at the next election.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970

    The RP by-election is all about ZG's ego. End of story.

    It's a con. He's fulfilled his promise of resigning only to stand again as an Independent In Name Only. He's still a Tory, they're not standing against him and his local party and Tory friends are backing him.
    Absolutely. And I hope the voters of Richmond Park will also recognise it as such and give him the kicking he deserves. Unlikely, however ...
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.
    Climate Change will itself crush the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, and the damage to the global economy will be profound, causing "our own" (as you so quaintly put it) to suffer too.

    Inconveniently for your argument this was all set out years ago in the Stern Review. Nicholas Stern has said recently that he underestimated the negative economic effects of Climate Change.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Review

    If Trump tries to resile from hard-won international agreements he will have global public and political opinion against him. He's powerful, but not that powerful.
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    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Still significantly better than what sits opposite them in the Commons.
    When, in your opinion, was that last not so?

    You mean you disagree with me? I was just winding up SO (who I genuinely feel sorry for), that no matter how rubbish the Tories are, there is no danger of them losing power at the next election.
    I wouldn't bother to feel sorry for other Peebies. We're a tough bunch.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.
    Climate Change will itself crush the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, and the damage to the global economy will be profound, causing "our own" (as you so quaintly put it) to suffer too.

    Inconveniently for your argument this was all set out years ago in the Stern Review. Nicholas Stern has said recently that he underestimated the negative economic effects of Climate Change.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Review

    If Trump tries to resile from hard-won international agreements he will have global public and political opinion against him. He's powerful, but not that powerful.
    Stern has been widely discredited.

    I'm not a climate scientist, but while climate change has always happened and and will continue to happen, it seems likely that human activity plays a part in that. However, expensive energy is not the way forward - that has a deleterious economic impact on the lives of people today. Far better to focus on mitigation and on developing new sources of protein*. Clearly supporting the trend towards cleaner fuels - whether shale gas, nuclear or renewable sources has a role as well, but the government has approached it in the wrong way.

    (*The reason why governments are worried about global temperatures, by the way, is nothing to do with the sort of weather events that the Daily Mail likes to write about. It's entirely driven by rice production in South East Asia. "Feed The Nine" is a big enough challenge as it is - if rice production fails then we are a world of sh1t).
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    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    The findings of the ICM poll will please the growing number of MPs and peers calling for the government to clarify the terms of the exit – a demand that puts them on a collision course with Theresa May, who has made it clear that she is determined to begin the departure process in March.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/12/brexit-article-50-parliament-eu-farron-may
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    Billy Knolls are down. Cricket betting related?
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    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardshipging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.
    Climate Change willwill be profound, causing "our own" (as you so quaintly put it) to suffer too.

    Inconveniently for your argument this was all set out years ago in the Stern Review. Nicholas Stern has said recently that he underestimated the negative economic effects of Climate Change.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Review

    If Trump tries to resile from hard-won international agreements he will have global public and political opinion against him. He's powerful, but not that powerful.
    Stern has been widely discredited.

    I'm not a climate scientist, but while climate change has always happened and and will continue to happen, it seems likely that human activity plays a part in that. However, expensive energy is not the way forward - that has a deleterious economic impact on the lives of people today. Far better to focus on mitigation and on developing new sources of protein*. Clearly supporting the trend towards cleaner fuels - whether shale gas, nuclear or renewable sources has a role as well, but the government has approached it in the wrong way.

    (*The reason why governments are worried about global temperatures, by the way, is nothing to do with the sort of weather events that the Daily Mail likes to write about. It's entirely driven by rice production in South East Asia. "Feed The Nine" is a big enough challenge as it is - if rice production fails then we are a world of sh1t).

    Climate change - whatever its causes - will also lead to wars and lead to huge population movements. Without water people cannot live, so they will fight over it and move to places where it continues to flow. A couple of degrees of extra warmth turns the UK into a nicer place to be in the winter. It turns much of southern Europe and north Africa into a desert.

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Weather forecast suggests it'll be dry in Sao Paulo.

    Rosberg will be pleased.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    But I’ll let you into a little secret. All the words I cannot use any more in this newspaper. All those jokes no one can say any more on television. All those phrases that are no longer socially acceptable in Notting Hill and the home counties. Well, up north you will hear all of them, all the time. Political correctness simply does not exist in a Doncaster pub. Because there’s no time to worry about the correct word for “cross-dresser” when you haven’t got any money.

    In parts of America there are people who spend all day in the cold, freezing half to death in a queue for the food bank. Many have no warm clothes or teeth and, forgive my language, but exactly how much of a shit do you think they give about transgender issues or the effing polar bear?


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news-review/pipe-down-and-come-with-me-on-a-tour-of-trumps-britain-2rgj2ws9h
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Both parties have supported free-trade deals because of the net positive GDP gains, overlooking the blue-collar workers who lost work as jobs left for Mexico or Vietnam. These are precisely the voters in the crucial swing states of Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania that Democrats have so long ignored. Excuse me. Who’s stupid?

    One key message is that trade deals are far more expensive than we’ve treated them, because sustained job development and training programs need to be counted as part of their costs.

    At a deeper level, both parties need an economic program that can deliver middle-class jobs. Republicans have one: Unleash American business. Democrats? They remain obsessed with cultural issues. I fully understand why transgender bathrooms are important, but I also understand why progressives’ obsession with prioritizing cultural issues infuriates many Americans whose chief concerns are economic.


    https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Whatever natural climate change does the Human Species is in for a torrid time. Malthus' prediction in the 19th century of mass starvation for a growing population didn't come to pass owing to scientific led agricultural achievements in the latter part of the 20th century; now the the billions of excess humans is a threat to themselves and the planet.

    The problem is twofold, overcrowding and lack of fresh water. It is the lack of space that is one main cause of friction; you only have to look in the packed buses and tube trains in London and other big cities to see the snarls on the faces of the travellers. But the main threat is the lack of fresh drinking and wash water, first in the desert areas and now in Europe and America. This will bring on wars of survival; very ugly indeed .
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.
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    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.

    Yep, she did. She is desperate to keep in with the Tory right. And if that means a cabinet packed with dimwitted mediocrities so be it. Career before country.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    Climate Change willwill be profound, causing "our own" (as you so quaintly put it) to suffer too.

    Inconveniently for your argument this was all set out years ago in the Stern Review. Nicholas Stern has said recently that he underestimated the negative economic effects of Climate Change.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Review

    If Trump tries to resile from hard-won international agreements he will have global public and political opinion against him. He's powerful, but not that powerful.

    Stern has been widely discredited.

    I'm not a climate scientist, but while climate change has always happened and and will continue to happen, it seems likely that human activity plays a part in that. However, expensive energy is not the way forward - that has a deleterious economic impact on the lives of people today. Far better to focus on mitigation and on developing new sources of protein*. Clearly supporting the trend towards cleaner fuels - whether shale gas, nuclear or renewable sources has a role as well, but the government has approached it in the wrong way.

    (*The reason why governments are worried about global temperatures, by the way, is nothing to do with the sort of weather events that the Daily Mail likes to write about. It's entirely driven by rice production in South East Asia. "Feed The Nine" is a big enough challenge as it is - if rice production fails then we are a world of sh1t).

    Climate change - whatever its causes - will also lead to wars and lead to huge population movements. Without water people cannot live, so they will fight over it and move to places where it continues to flow. A couple of degrees of extra warmth turns the UK into a nicer place to be in the winter. It turns much of southern Europe and north Africa into a desert.

    It is the population movements (and by implication potential for wars) that is the issue with rice. One billion people without a reliable food source is not good.

    But water also matters. Obviously :)
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.

    Yep, she did. She is desperate to keep in with the Tory right. And if that means a cabinet packed with dimwitted mediocrities so be it. Career before country.

    Do you think Theresa May KNOWS Brexit is doomed to failure?

    When she went around saying, "Brexit is Brexit and we'll make it a success" she presumably thought it was going to be a success. She hasn't said that for a while but that's when she appointed Liam Fox. Maybe she would appoint differently now. Safe pairs of hands would be more attractive I suspect.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    PlatoSaid said:
    Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing. I thought this bit was particularly good:

    "Nothing that happens outside the city matters!" they say at their cocktail parties, blissfully unaware of where their food is grown. Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

    But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    PlatoSaid said:
    David Wong can at times be surprisingly cutting and insightful for the editor of a comedy website.

    The rural folk with the Trump signs in their yards say their way of life is dying, and you smirk and say what they really mean is that blacks and gays are finally getting equal rights and they hate it. But I'm telling you, they say their way of life is dying because their way of life is dying. It's not their imagination

    We've seen some commentary before along these lines, but it seems to be getting more and more relevant, where people like Wong or, say, Samuel Dale in this recent Uncut article, are at least trying to grapple with the fact that they do truly believe societal changes have been for the better, they recognise dark and unpleasant aspects of those they oppose who have just won (so do I in fact), but are realizing something is wrong with how they and others are opposing it which means they are failing.

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2016/11/11/identity-politics-and-snobbery-are-destroying-liberalism/

    This was the complete embodiment of the failure of American liberalism. An impotent march in a bastion of liberalism shouting about fringe issues among ourselves. Completely and utterly pointless...

    Identity politics is growing in the UK too as Labour shrinks under Corbyn. We see it in Sadiq Khan’s London where his Muslim faith is held up as an intrinsic virtue. No, it isn’t. It’s great to have a Muslim mayor in an era of Islamophobia but we should assess his policies first and not his identity. We have lost sight of that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a middle aged white man. And there is nothing inherently virtuous about being a female ethnic minority. This left liberal stridency on identity has to end now.


    Having recently read The Road to Wigan Pier for the first time, I am reminded of Orwell's rage in that it seemed he felt victory for the Left was absolutely necessary for the country, but was being put forth in the wrong way by the wrong people, belittling things important for ordinary people and losing potential converts as a result.

    Wong in that article doesn't think his liberal view is incorrect, nor do I, he hasn't had some epiphany where he will switch to a non-liberal position, but he hits the nail on the head in terms of understanding that it was the dismissal of all concerns due to a sense of superiority that has so undermined the liberal message.


    1 of 2
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046
    I get that Theresa May has to engage in party management. However she also needs to lead. Not standing in Richmond Park is a sign of weakness. Allowing the three Brexiteers to wander around unaided is a sign of weakness. The more restless members on the backbenches will be taking notice. They may all have united around Matron when they were lost but if she doesn't enforce discipline there'll eventually be mayhem.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.
    Of course she believes it, as do I.

    But fundamentally pre actual Brexit the decision to engage is a prime ministerial one with our partner countries. I am sure that many will do so in private. Once they decide to engage the work is done by the professionals.

    There's just not much of a real role for Liam Fox ;)
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.

    Yep, she did. She is desperate to keep in with the Tory right. And if that means a cabinet packed with dimwitted mediocrities so be it. Career before country.

    Southam, you are getting very bitter and twisted. Is it because you have re-joined the Labour party and seen just how bad it really is?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I get that Theresa May has to engage in party management. However she also needs to lead. Not standing in Richmond Park is a sign of weakness. Allowing the three Brexiteers to wander around unaided is a sign of weakness. The more restless members on the backbenches will be taking notice. They may all have united around Matron when they were lost but if she doesn't enforce discipline there'll eventually be mayhem.

    Zac is a little child stamping his feet.. same as David Davis did,..
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    I get that Theresa May has to engage in party management. However she also needs to lead. Not standing in Richmond Park is a sign of weakness.

    Tactical decision I guess. Allowing someone to stand as an 'Indy' deemed better than risking a by-election loss which, since the LDs are the most likely beneficiaries in that seat, would be played up by them as a Brexit issue, and would cause some jitters/encourage Soft Brexiters in the Tories.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    This is most entertaining re the hypocrisy of the media re which party won

    http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-just-made-10-things-cool/
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.

    Yep, she did. She is desperate to keep in with the Tory right. And if that means a cabinet packed with dimwitted mediocrities so be it. Career before country.

    A little unfair surely?

    If she loses the Tory right then she would end up no longer being PM- and probably someone much less capable would end up taking over. That's hardly good for the country also.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining re the hypocrisy of the media re which party won

    http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-just-made-10-things-cool/

    In fairness it does have a point re Obstruction and Executive power, it's something even John Stewart occasionally pointed out re changing tune once they were in power.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871
    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.
    That just highlights how crap she and the Tories are, Fox being among their best and we are down to begging India to trade with us. How times have changed.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    Running behind schedule perhaps?
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    I get that Theresa May has to engage in party management. However she also needs to lead. Not standing in Richmond Park is a sign of weakness. Allowing the three Brexiteers to wander around unaided is a sign of weakness. The more restless members on the backbenches will be taking notice. They may all have united around Matron when they were lost but if she doesn't enforce discipline there'll eventually be mayhem.

    Sometimes one has to recognise that one's position is weak, and make the best of it, rather than engaging in empty bravado.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    I would never give ‘unconditional’ support to anything, so I agree that the number seems high.

    To make any sense of it, the pollster should have calibrated. E.g., By asking, do you give unconditional support to the EU, or the police, or the Labour Party, or the NHS ?

    It actual looks like a question a pollster would ask when they desired to get a majority saying No, and so provide material for the Guardian article.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    It could simply be that they won.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    Unfortunately for you, they're mainly switching to the Conservatives.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited November 2016
    kle4 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    David Wong can at times be surprisingly cutting and insightful for the editor of a comedy website.

    The rural folk with the Trump signs in their yards say their way of life is dying, and you smirk and say what they really mean is that blacks and gays are finally getting equal rights and they hate it. But I'm telling you, they say their way of life is dying because their way of life is dying. It's not their imagination

    We've seen some commentary before along these lines, but it seems to be getting more and more relevant, where people like Wong or, say, Samuel Dale in this recent Uncut article, are at least trying to grapple with the fact that they do truly believe societal changes have been for the better, they recognise dark and unpleasant aspects of those they oppose who have just won (so do I in fact), but are realizing something is wrong with how they and others are opposing it which means they are failing.

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2016/11/11/identity-politics-and-snobbery-are-destroying-liberalism/

    This was the complete embodiment of the failure of American liberalism. An impotent march in a bastion of liberalism shouting about fringe issues among ourselves. Completely and utterly pointless...

    Identity politics is growing in the UK too as Labour shrinks under Corbyn. We see it in Sadiq Khan’s London where his Muslim faith is held up as an intrinsic virtue. No, it isn’t. It’s great to have a Muslim mayor in an era of Islamophobia but we should assess his policies first and not his identity. We have lost sight of that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a middle aged white man. And there is nothing inherently virtuous about being a female ethnic minority. This left liberal stridency on identity has to end now.


    Having recently read The Road to Wigan Pier for the first time, I am reminded of Orwell's rage in that it seemed he felt victory for the Left was absolutely necessary for the country, but was being put forth in the wrong way by the wrong people, belittling things important for ordinary people and losing potential converts as a result.

    Wong in that article doesn't think his liberal view is incorrect, nor do I, he hasn't had some epiphany where he will switch to a non-liberal position, but he hits the nail on the head in terms of understanding that it was the dismissal of all concerns due to a sense of superiority that has so undermined the liberal message.


    1 of 2
    I watched this last night re safe spaces/GamerGate/feminism - the lady intv'd is a liberal Prof on campus and thinks it's poisonous stuff - she's well plugged in. Worth a looksee.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RNaspc5Ep4
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    edited November 2016
    Jezza looking and sounding scarily unscary on Marr.

    Talking tommy rot (higher wages will bring down immigration etc) but no more than any other bonkers politician these days; this could be his time...
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    Unfortunately for you, they're mainly switching to the Conservatives.
    Evidence ?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    Running behind schedule perhaps?
    It's lazy thinking. It encourages the belief that you don't need to win over voters. It ignores the fact that lots of peoples' voting behaviour changes as their circumstances change.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    IanB2 said:

    Andrew Rawnsley is worried: consoling ourselves that Trump is a liar is no consolation. And that the Uk's mid-pond alternative to Europe will be an illusion.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/13/donald-trump-election-terrifying-president-global-economy-security

    Rawnsley -> Public School -> Head Boy -> Oxbridge -> Varsity and the Cambridge Union -> BBC -> Blair -> Big North London House -> Observer -> Guardian

    So, the worst possible commentator to provide any insight into what we are facing.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    Unfortunately for you, they're mainly switching to the Conservatives.
    Evidence ?
    http://tinyurl.com/z9osghj
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    TOPPING said:

    Jezza looking and sounding scarily unscary on Marr.
    .

    Doesn't he usually seem 'unscary'? Apart from those moments he loses his rag ("Can we have a question on the NHS, please?") he has an understated, soothing demeanour I find, which makes it harder to pick up what I personally would regard as some of his least credible statements.

    I suppose it is the opposite of Trump, where his outrageous style means its hard to pick up when he says something sensible.
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    F1: just working through the pre-race piece. Perplexed as to why all the markets aren't up yet (not likely to bet on it, but the lap 1 leader market isn't up on Ladbrokes).
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    FF43 said:



    When she went around saying, "Brexit is Brexit and we'll make it a success" she presumably thought it was going to be a success. She hasn't said that for a while but that's when she appointed Liam Fox. Maybe she would appoint differently now. Safe pairs of hands would be more attractive I suspect.

    My canvass reports are all anecdotal and should be treated as non-scientific, but FWIW I'm picking up some respect for May even among classic Labour voters - they are reserving judgment on what she actually does, but they like a cautious tone in these difficult times. I think that yesterday's poll reflects that - people feel that a boring PM and a boring Chancellor are rather welcome just now, exactly because they're seen as a safe pair of hands. The honeymoon is continuing and will last until events force her hand on Brexit and other matters.

    The other things I'm picking up are continuing dislike of the LibDems among people who voted for them in the past, two-way movement on Corbyn (some attracted for the first time, some defecting for the first time), a degree of exasperation among UKIP voters who still want to vote for them but feel they're just a mess, and above all a lot of people who don't think much about politics and are just planning to vote as they usually do.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The Guardian seems to spend every day rummaging through the dustbins of Europe trying to find something new to gripe about with Brexit.
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    Unfortunately for you, they're mainly switching to the Conservatives.
    Evidence ?
    http://tinyurl.com/z9osghj
    A link to an opinion poll ??? ROFL
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    @Speedy I'm pleased we've got to the Golden Lift picture. Leave were extremely careful to keep Farage in his box during the referendum and wisely so. He is now out of his box. Brexiters are also keen to deny Trump and Brexit are linked. It's extremely helpful and considerate of Farage to helpfully tweet an iconic image showing that Brexit/Trumpism are interlinked projects of the transatlantic right. One to keep handy.

    And, as we know, where Farage goes Theresa May and the Tory right will follow. Brexit is inevtiably all about cuddling up to anyone out there who will give us a hearing. The problem with Trump, though (apart from all the obvious ones) is that he wants less free trade, not more.

    Trump plans to inhibit free trade and stackup tariffs, but also a major programme of tax cuts and infrastructure. This is likdly to depress Americas savings rate further and worsen its trade deficit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    Running behind schedule perhaps?
    It's lazy thinking. It encourages the belief that you don't need to win over voters. It ignores the fact that lots of peoples' voting behaviour changes as their circumstances change.
    I was just joking - certainly the idea that a demographic, age or racial or whatever, will always proceed down a certain path has to be nonsense, even where we find it hard to conceive of how and why it would change. There is indeed no such thing as destiny.
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    Billy Knolls gave me a miserly 8/1 on an England win @ 0-1.Was going to cover with Zachary in RP. But that was then....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    FF43 said:



    When she went around saying, "Brexit is Brexit and we'll make it a success" she presumably thought it was going to be a success. She hasn't said that for a while but that's when she appointed Liam Fox. Maybe she would appoint differently now. Safe pairs of hands would be more attractive I suspect.

    ... above all a lot of people who don't think much about politics
    Ah, you mean weirdos, right?

    A good day to all.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited November 2016
    TOPPING said:

    Jezza looking and sounding scarily unscary on Marr.

    Talking tommy rot (higher wages will bring down immigration etc) but no more than any other bonkers politician these days; this could be his time...

    How the hell do higher wages bring down immigration in an open system?!? Has Marr trashed him on this?
  • Options
    Miss Plato, not that into the politics of videogames, but was amused when there was an outcry from bedwetters about killing women in an FPS (first person shooter) some months ago. Because all the men killed are a-ok. And people had complained about a lack of female characters beforehand.

    Some people just like whining.

    As an aside, one reason I'm not getting Mass Effect Andromeda (as well as disliking the DLC approach of Bioware) is that one of the people working on it has posted anti-white stuff, which seems bizarrely acceptable to some people.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    Unfortunately for you, they're mainly switching to the Conservatives.
    Evidence ?
    http://tinyurl.com/z9osghj
    A link to an opinion poll ??? ROFL
    While there have been some high profile polling misses recently, I'd suggest the current Westminster VI polls are quite good for the Tories.
  • Options

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tpfkar said:

    First, although Richmond Park feels less of a big deal given the past week

    Arguably it's now an even bigger deal. We need a realignment more than ever. I've donated to the Lib Dem By-election fund in my first act of support for the party since I left over 4 years ago. The Lib Dems don't deserve to win so early in their long recovery arc but needs must. The twin pillars of Human well-being , liberty and ecology, deserve a Lib Dem win so clothes peg time.
    Liberty is absolutely something which is critical - but which the LibDems have failed to serve, They put the state above the individual

    Ecology - stewardship and dominion - is at the core of human existence: but the LibDems have made it a false god to be worshiped. Careful husbanding of the world's resources doesn't mean crushing the aspirations of millions of impoverished people in emerging markets, nor does it mean causing our own to suffer by transporting jobs overseas.

    The Lib Dems might have the right questions, but they sure as heck don't have the answers.

    The right questions is a start. The Tories these days don't even have enquiring minds to offer us; merely absurd, dimwitted non-entities like Liam Fox.

    Don't fret.

    Most Tories know that Fox is an absurd dimwitted non-entity.

    Worse than that he's boring.

    International trade secretary isn't that important a post: it is time consuming drudgery with most of the work being done by the professional negotiators. He just has to run around and look busy.
    I don't think Theresa May went through the humiliation of her recent trip to India with Liam Fox to demonstrate, Canute style, she doesn't control the tides after all. She went because she shares a belief with her trade secretary that Britain can initiate a new international order to substitute the one it had with the EU. She chose Liam Fox as the right man for the job.

    Yep, she did. She is desperate to keep in with the Tory right. And if that means a cabinet packed with dimwitted mediocrities so be it. Career before country.

    Southam, you are getting very bitter and twisted. Is it because you have re-joined the Labour party and seen just how bad it really is?

    The Labour party's undoubted awfulness gives the Tories an electoral firewall. It doesn't make them any good.

  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    edited November 2016
    tlg86 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing. I thought this bit was particularly good:

    "Nothing that happens outside the city matters!" they say at their cocktail parties, blissfully unaware of where their food is grown. Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

    But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.
    Epitome of the straw man argument. As a liberal metropolitan who moves in liberal metropolitan circles, I have never heard anyone say such a palpably stupid thing as 'Nothing that happens outside the city matters!'.
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jezza looking and sounding scarily unscary on Marr.

    Talking tommy rot (higher wages will bring down immigration etc) but no more than any other bonkers politician these days; this could be his time...

    How the hell do higher wages bring down immigration in an open system?!? Has Marr trashed him on this?

    There's a reason politicians like being interviewed by Andrew Marr and not Andrew Neil.

  • Options

    tlg86 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing. I thought this bit was particularly good:

    "Nothing that happens outside the city matters!" they say at their cocktail parties, blissfully unaware of where their food is grown. Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

    But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.
    Epitome of the straw man argument. As a liberal metropolitan who moves in liberal metropolitan circles, I have never heard anyone say such a palpably stupid thing as 'Nothing that happens outside the city matters!'.
    No but have you heard them say it does matter? Have you seen them demonstrate how it matters?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Like many I wouldn't have voted for Trump, but since the vote there have been a number of different reactions. Anger, even to the level of protest, although who exactly people are angry at is more awkward, since it is hard to be angry at near half your country. Denial, where people just don't want to confront why Trump one, or why so many people backed him - I've seen countless 'jokes' on various YouTube content I watch opening with 'just enjoy this in case you need to get away from certain other things happening, wink wink', which while understandable I think is in a way worse than showing anger, it's being passive aggressive about your anger, not wanting to confront it and deal with the issues, but unwilling to genuinely ignore it (that's fine, you're just a youtuber, but obliquely referencing things is not ignoring it). And finally, analysis, genuinely trying to understand what happened so it can be fought.

    The latter is clearly the best option to take, but it is never easy, admittedly.

    Only a third of UK voters support Brexit unconditionally, according to a poll that suggests a widespread wish for the government to share the terms of the UK’s departure from Europe before it embarks on the process.

    I'm genuinely surprised 'unconditional' support is that high, that seems quite promising for the government.

    2 of 2
    One idea that will hopefully be buried now is that Demographics = Destiny. Remember how the Coalition of the Ascendant would give the Democrats a hammer-lock on the Presidency? Or demographic change would produce a voting majority for a United Ireland? Or support for the Conservatives and UKIP would decline as older voters died off? How did all those predictions work out?
    UKIP support is certainly declining whether that is caused by older voters dying off or that they are simply crap is a moot question .
    Unfortunately for you, they're mainly switching to the Conservatives.
    Evidence ?
    http://tinyurl.com/z9osghj
    A link to an opinion poll ??? ROFL
    Polling can be out by 3% or so, but it's a handy guide to national trends.

    What pollsters can't do accurately is call very close binary races, or pick up different voting patterns in types of constituencies or States. In the case of the latter, good and honest canvassing is essential. I can only assume that either the quality of Clinton's canvassing in Wisconsin and Michigan was terrible, or that she wasn't being told what they were picking up on the ground.

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jezza looking and sounding scarily unscary on Marr.

    Talking tommy rot (higher wages will bring down immigration etc) but no more than any other bonkers politician these days; this could be his time...

    How the hell do higher wages bring down immigration in an open system?!? Has Marr trashed him on this?
    He's giving him a very easy ride.
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    Mr. Observer, however, as Clinton may observe, firewalls do not come with a guarantee.
  • Options

    Mr. Observer, however, as Clinton may observe, firewalls do not come with a guarantee.

    The Corbyn one does.

  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jezza looking and sounding scarily unscary on Marr.

    Talking tommy rot (higher wages will bring down immigration etc) but no more than any other bonkers politician these days; this could be his time...

    How the hell do higher wages bring down immigration in an open system?!? Has Marr trashed him on this?
    He's giving him a very easy ride.

    That's the Marr way.

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    Off topic, the PB anti-Oatibixers will be comforted to know that I am having porridge this morning.

    Still off topic, making a UK analogy of the US, Labour and the Conservatives got knocked out in the primaries and voters were left with a choice of UKIP or LibDems. If that was the choice on the ballot here, we wouldn't be surprised if WWC voters either stayed at home or voted for the populist.

    Labour needs to learn and learn fast from Hillary's defeat.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Miss Plato, not that into the politics of videogames, but was amused when there was an outcry from bedwetters about killing women in an FPS (first person shooter) some months ago. Because all the men killed are a-ok. And people had complained about a lack of female characters beforehand.

    Some people just like whining.

    As an aside, one reason I'm not getting Mass Effect Andromeda (as well as disliking the DLC approach of Bioware) is that one of the people working on it has posted anti-white stuff, which seems bizarrely acceptable to some people.

    I didn't understand the soup of GamerGate until this week. It's a load of whiny identity politics about games that supposedly make men more sexist. Seriously - who are these saddos?

    It's in the same category as making Spiderman a lesbian.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    tlg86 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing. I thought this bit was particularly good:

    "Nothing that happens outside the city matters!" they say at their cocktail parties, blissfully unaware of where their food is grown. Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

    But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.
    Epitome of the straw man argument. As a liberal metropolitan who moves in liberal metropolitan circles, I have never heard anyone say such a palpably stupid thing as 'Nothing that happens outside the city matters!'.
    Actually, I have heard American academics say only the East and West Coasts matter, and we fly over the other states.

    Just a few weeks ago in Princeton.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    PlatoSaid said:

    Miss Plato, not that into the politics of videogames, but was amused when there was an outcry from bedwetters about killing women in an FPS (first person shooter) some months ago. Because all the men killed are a-ok. And people had complained about a lack of female characters beforehand.

    Some people just like whining.

    As an aside, one reason I'm not getting Mass Effect Andromeda (as well as disliking the DLC approach of Bioware) is that one of the people working on it has posted anti-white stuff, which seems bizarrely acceptable to some people.

    I didn't understand the soup of GamerGate until this week. It's a load of whiny identity politics about games that supposedly make men more sexist. Seriously - who are these saddos?

    It's in the same category as making Spiderman a lesbian.
    It was brave (by US media standards) for Breaking Bad to make its main villain a gay black man (and Gus Fring really was outstanding).
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Good to see Andrew Marr holding to account one of his guests on the topic of antisemitism. Too bad he doesn't do that with all his guests.
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    Miss Plato, it's a lot of tangled web stuff. There is some sexism in videogames (Naughty Dog had to fight to put Ellie on the cover (along with Joel) of The Last of Us, and she's integral to the plot) but then you have muppets like Anita Sarkeesian who go completely over the top, so any sensible and legitimate complaints get lost in her banshee-shrieking.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046

    IanB2 said:

    Andrew Rawnsley is worried: consoling ourselves that Trump is a liar is no consolation. And that the Uk's mid-pond alternative to Europe will be an illusion.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/13/donald-trump-election-terrifying-president-global-economy-security

    Rawnsley -> Public School -> Head Boy -> Oxbridge -> Varsity and the Cambridge Union -> BBC -> Blair -> Big North London House -> Observer -> Guardian

    So, the worst possible commentator to provide any insight into what we are facing.
    He's an excellent commentator, one of the best in the media. And judging from the polls his hostility to Trump seems in line with the electorate. Neither was he a Blair-toady. He wrote two pretty critical books about new labour.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970

    tlg86 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing. I thought this bit was particularly good:

    "Nothing that happens outside the city matters!" they say at their cocktail parties, blissfully unaware of where their food is grown. Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

    But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.
    Epitome of the straw man argument. As a liberal metropolitan who moves in liberal metropolitan circles, I have never heard anyone say such a palpably stupid thing as 'Nothing that happens outside the city matters!'.
    Actually, I have heard American academics say only the East and West Coasts matter, and we fly over the other states.

    Just a few weeks ago in Princeton.
    Well, perhaps they might be rethinking that now. And the last time I looked at a map Florida was on the East Coast.
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    Mr. F, a ruthless gay character would definitely be indicative of a heroic writer.
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    Marr apologising for his interview with Marine le Pen on remembrance sunday.
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