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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After his Strictly successes it’s hard to imagine Ed Balls not

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited November 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After his Strictly successes it’s hard to imagine Ed Balls not making a return to mainstream politics

One of the great distractions this autumn has been the extraordinary run that ex-LAB cabinet minister and shadow chancellor, Ed Balls, has had on Strictly. I don’t follow the show myself but every weekend I’ve been hunting out the video clips of his Saturday night performances which have been stunning.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Glorious first!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2016
    Taps microphone...sniff sniff.... WROOOOOOOONGGG
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Voted Balls in 2010. Would do so again.

    Maybe he has too much sense to get back into politics.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @tpfkar

    FPT

    See what happens when you try to create an AV thread...
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    "He’s a class act politically"

    Yeah, such a class act that he lost a safe Labour seat.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Jonathan said:

    Voted Balls in 2010. Would do so again.

    Maybe he has too much sense to get back into politics.

    I think so. If he goes back into politics then maybe as mayor of South Yorkshire.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    He was been on the bake off subplot shows as well wasn't he ?

    He'd have a real shot at 2020 if he was Labour leader (May isn't really pulling up any trees), but not sure

    a) He wants to head back in
    b) Can beat Corbyn.
  • Options
    Balls by name, Balls by nature :lol:
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Balls by name, Balls by nature :lol:

    Balls had more balls than most.
  • Options
    Already on Ed as next Labour leader at 100/1.

    Come on, Ed.
  • Options
    I would imagine he's now having too much fun and earning too much money to want to be leader of a bombed out party.
  • Options
    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Voted Balls in 2010. Would do so again.

    Maybe he has too much sense to get back into politics.

    I think so. If he goes back into politics then maybe as mayor of South Yorkshire.
    No, Hartlepool.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Balls by name, Balls by nature :lol:

    Balls had more balls than most.
    Talked more balls than most.
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Charles said:

    @tpfkar

    FPT

    See what happens when you try to create an AV thread...

    Lesson learned!

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    shiney2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    shiney2 said:

    He's really going to do it:

    "Within minutes of his comments CBS released an excerpt from its interview with Mr Trump, however, in which he made clear that the mass deportations will be going ahead. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/13/donald-trump-vows-to-immediately-deport-3million-illegal-immigra/

    President Le Pen, and esp PrimeMinister Wilders, are looking more and more likely.

    Let's assume that the PVV gets 25%, that still probably doesn't lead to PM Wilders given the perfectly proportional nature of the Dutch electoral system.
    Didn't say certain or even probably, just more likely. But that likelihood looks set to grow as the USA does the 'impossible' and of course the President reaps the popularity. It's usually easier to follow..
    I think we over do spillover between countries; it is more the case that the circumstances that lead the rise of insurgent political movements (i.e. stagnant real wages since 1999) are true across much of the developed world (the UK, the US, Japan), and therefore the political response is similar.

    I suspect that the two round nature of elections in France makes it less likely Mme Le Pen makes it there.

    In the Netherlands, while I assumed that the PVV was likely to top the polls (and they were a long way clear earlier this year and last year), they are now lagging the VVD meaningfully. It may be that there are understated; but even if they are, the proportional nature of the Dutch political system, which ensures that they would need to partner with at least one (and probably two) of D66 (Eurofanatics who topped the Euroelection polls), the Greens, Labour Party, the Socialists, and the Christian Democrats. That severely restrains their ability to do anything.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited November 2016

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Joe Scarborough
    Democrats Under Barack Obama

    -11 seats in Senate
    -60 seats in House
    -14 governorships
    -900 state legislative seats

    Worst since 1922.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2016
    I notice that the Donald now says he is targeting the illegals with criminal records. As with the border wall fence , despite the horror and outrage, it isn't exactly new. I want to say bush snr (could be wrong on which president) had a huge push on deporting even those born in the us to illegals "back" to central America if they had committed serious crimes.

    The down side is that is credited with the strengthening of the gangs in places like guatemala.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.
  • Options

    Already on Ed as next Labour leader at 100/1.

    Come on, Ed.

    Yes, as a major player in the party, he has to be worth £2 or £3 at those odds, but it's really just hope money.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    I notice that the Donald now says he is targeting the illegals with criminal records. As with the border wall fence , despite the horror and outrage, it isn't exactly new. I want to say bush snr (could be wrong on which president) had a huge push on deporting even those born in the us to illegals "back" to central America.

    The down side is that is credited with the strengthening of the gangs in places like guatemala.

    And your problem with that is??
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    PlatoSaid said:

    Joe Scarborough
    Democrats Under Barack Obama

    -11 seats in Senate
    -60 seats in House
    -14 governorships
    -900 state legislative seats

    Worst since 1922.

    The Senate and House changes (-11/-60) are identical to Clintion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses
  • Options
    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    How will they pay, if not in dollars?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Joe Scarborough
    Democrats Under Barack Obama

    -11 seats in Senate
    -60 seats in House
    -14 governorships
    -900 state legislative seats

    Worst since 1922.

    The Senate and House changes (-11/-60) are identical to Clintion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses
    It's the gubernatorial losses that hurts them the most IMO. It really gives the GOP the chance to gerrymander the House.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2016
    weejonnie said:

    I notice that the Donald now says he is targeting the illegals with criminal records. As with the border wall fence , despite the horror and outrage, it isn't exactly new. I want to say bush snr (could be wrong on which president) had a huge push on deporting even those born in the us to illegals "back" to central America.

    The down side is that is credited with the strengthening of the gangs in places like guatemala.

    And your problem with that is??
    Reread required...I said despite the outrage, this has been done before. But there is a downside, as countries already with poor government, rule of law and ability to hold them get a load of more bad hombres.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    I notice that the Donald now says he is targeting the illegals with criminal records. As with the border wall fence , despite the horror and outrage, it isn't exactly new. I want to say bush snr (could be wrong on which president) had a huge push on deporting even those born in the us to illegals "back" to central America if they had committed serious crimes.

    The down side is that is credited with the strengthening of the gangs in places like guatemala.

    Bush Senior on illegal immigrants:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixi9_cciy8w
  • Options
    shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    rcs1000 said:

    shiney2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    shiney2 said:

    He's really going to do it:

    "Within minutes of his comments CBS released an excerpt from its interview with Mr Trump, however, in which he made clear that the mass deportations will be going ahead. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/13/donald-trump-vows-to-immediately-deport-3million-illegal-immigra/

    President Le Pen, and esp PrimeMinister Wilders, are looking more and more likely.

    Let's assume that the PVV gets 25%, that still probably doesn't lead to PM Wilders given the perfectly proportional nature of the Dutch electoral system.
    Didn't say certain or even probably, just more likely. But that likelihood looks set to grow as the USA does the 'impossible' and of course the President reaps the popularity. It's usually easier to follow..
    I think we over do spillover between countries; it is more the case that the circumstances that lead the rise of insurgent political movements (i.e. stagnant real wages since 1999) are true across much of the developed world (the UK, the US, Japan), and therefore the political response is similar.

    I suspect that the two round nature of elections in France makes it less likely Mme Le Pen makes it there.

    In the Netherlands, while I assumed that the PVV was likely to top the polls (and they were a long way clear earlier this year and last year), they are now lagging the VVD meaningfully. It may be that there are understated; but even if they are, the proportional nature of the Dutch political system, which ensures that they would need to partner with at least one (and probably two) of D66 (Eurofanatics who topped the Euroelection polls), the Greens, Labour Party, the Socialists, and the Christian Democrats. That severely restrains their ability to do anything.
    The 'spillover' is greater with the cultural affinity of the populations. Not so much between Japan and UK, lots more between France and Netherlands (wage stagnation, unemployment, terrorists etc). Nothings certain but that little 'wave coming up the beach' sure looks bigger now than it did on 7/11. Next year it could wash away the EU..
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Found an article that manages to capture my thoughts well. Warning: does contain some swearing (which I think is necessary)

    https://medium.com/@SnoozeInBrief/an-analysis-of-donald-trumps-election-win-and-the-prospects-for-his-presidency-f6a87eef6d70#.uo4mhhtx3
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    I think Yvette Cooper might benefit from the Ed surge.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    Of course. That is why isn't an effective policy to stop illegal immigration.

    The biggest joke in US is everybody knows where the bulk of illegals are hired and a blind eye is turned eg Go to southern California & everybody knows the vast majority of those in the fields are illegal, etc etc etc.
  • Options
    Hope he wins Strictly, I am on at 300/1
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    shiney2 said:

    The 'spillover' is greater with the cultural affinity of the populations. Not so much between Japan and UK, lots more between France and Netherlands (wage stagnation, unemployment, terrorists etc). Nothings certain but that little 'wave coming up the beach' sure looks bigger now than it did on 7/11. Next year it could wash away the EU..

    Yes it could.

    But my money is against it. Why? Because politics usually follows the path of least resistance. And, really, all that has happened in the world in the last year is that we - who have never been happy in the EU, and where polls have had us in favour of leaving for around half of the last 20 years - voted to leave the EU, and Donald Trump sneaked a victory against the least inspiring Democratic candidate in 50 years.

    Look around, and there are at least as many signs of swings to the status quo as against it. The PVV has seen its poll leads go from 15 seats to a deficit of 5 seats. In Greece, New Democracy is now miles ahead of SYRIZA. In Spain, Rajoy's PP gained share and won seats, while Podemos remained stuck in third.

    Why should France and the Netherlands not follow Spain's lead rather than the US?
  • Options

    Already on Ed as next Labour leader at 100/1.

    Come on, Ed.

    :+1:
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    New fencing is going up. The Obama legacy.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Joe Scarborough
    Democrats Under Barack Obama

    -11 seats in Senate
    -60 seats in House
    -14 governorships
    -900 state legislative seats

    Worst since 1922.

    The Senate and House changes (-11/-60) are identical to Clintion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses
    It's the gubernatorial losses that hurts them the most IMO. It really gives the GOP the chance to gerrymander the House.
    That's very true.
  • Options
    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2016
    Just following from my point below...

    The US have got themselves in a ridiculous situation. 11m+ illegals, and now huge number of businesses have grown up where their business model depends on being able to hire them normally on terrible terms and conditions.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,242
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    All of the above is comic.

    If there was any real interest in stopping employment of illegals, it could be done in a matter of days -

    Make employment of an illegal a $100,000 fine for the employer. Half goes to the INS budget, half to the general treasury. And the employer also has to pay for a 1st class flight home for the illegal and his/her entire family. Business class not allowed.

    Suddenly every INS agent would be checking everything and everyone....

    Suggest that. Giggle as the tumbleweed rolls by in silence as the anti-immigration types look at their shoes. And wonder about their gardener....


  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Voted Balls in 2010. Talking balls since birth.

    Free edit. ;)
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    How will they pay, if not in dollars?
    Coke.
  • Options
    wasdwasd Posts: 276
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    How will they pay, if not in dollars?
    The US seems to use it's military engineering corps. for far more civil engineering work than we do over here. It's not unusual to see a sign saying that some dam or national park highway has been build by the XXXth company of the US Army Engineers.
  • Options
    shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    shiney2 said:

    The 'spillover' is greater with the cultural affinity of the populations. Not so much between Japan and UK, lots more between France and Netherlands (wage stagnation, unemployment, terrorists etc). Nothings certain but that little 'wave coming up the beach' sure looks bigger now than it did on 7/11. Next year it could wash away the EU..

    Yes it could.

    But my money is against it. Why? Because politics usually follows the path of least resistance. And, really, all that has happened in the world in the last year is that we - who have never been happy in the EU, and where polls have had us in favour of leaving for around half of the last 20 years - voted to leave the EU, and Donald Trump sneaked a victory against the least inspiring Democratic candidate in 50 years.

    Look around, and there are at least as many signs of swings to the status quo as against it. The PVV has seen its poll leads go from 15 seats to a deficit of 5 seats. In Greece, New Democracy is now miles ahead of SYRIZA. In Spain, Rajoy's PP gained share and won seats, while Podemos remained stuck in third.

    Why should France and the Netherlands not follow Spain's lead rather than the US?
    Yes, I'm not expecting the EU to join Austria-Hungary next year.

    But the opportunity is finally here (elex/ref: Ne, Ge, Fr, It). Plus the anti-globalisation and islamist waves are growing.

    We only have to be lucky once.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    All of the above is comic.

    If there was any real interest in stopping employment of illegals, it could be done in a matter of days -

    Make employment of an illegal a $100,000 fine for the employer. Half goes to the INS budget, half to the general treasury. And the employer also has to pay for a 1st class flight home for the illegal and his/her entire family. Business class not allowed.

    Suddenly every INS agent would be checking everything and everyone....

    Suggest that. Giggle as the tumbleweed rolls by in silence as the anti-immigration types look at their shoes. And wonder about their gardener....


    I seemed to remember one state in the past couple of years severely increased the fines for employing illegals and also ability for law enforcement to ask people to produce their documentation and if people couldn't they could be deported...and there was massive uproar about this.
  • Options

    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
    106 years since the LibDems won a general election :lol:

    *runs and hides*
  • Options
    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,242

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    All of the above is comic.

    If there was any real interest in stopping employment of illegals, it could be done in a matter of days -

    Make employment of an illegal a $100,000 fine for the employer. Half goes to the INS budget, half to the general treasury. And the employer also has to pay for a 1st class flight home for the illegal and his/her entire family. Business class not allowed.

    Suddenly every INS agent would be checking everything and everyone....

    Suggest that. Giggle as the tumbleweed rolls by in silence as the anti-immigration types look at their shoes. And wonder about their gardener....


    I seemed to remember one state in the past couple of years severely increased the fines for employing illegals and also ability for law enforcement to ask people to produce their documentation and if people couldn't they could be deported...and there was massive uproar about this.
    The massive uproar was because it would actually work. Bit like the fury over Byron Burger cooperating with Immigration in the UK.
  • Options

    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
    He deserves a dukedom.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    What use is farage now to Trump?
    hes just a tool either way.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Just following from my point below...

    The US have got themselves in a ridiculous situation. 11m+ illegals, and now huge number of businesses have grown up where their business model depends on being able to hire them normally on terrible terms and conditions.

    Yes, which is why the Republican Congress won't pay for a deportation force, big business will lobby against it.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited November 2016

    Just following from my point below...

    The US have got themselves in a ridiculous situation. 11m+ illegals, and now huge number of businesses have grown up where their business model depends on being able to hire them normally on terrible terms and conditions.

    As Audrey2 says "Tough Titty"

    One thing though - the price of some goods and services for the 'liberal elite' will go up. That is a consequence I am willing to bear.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
  • Options
    shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672

    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
    He deserves a dukedom.
    Could install him in TRUMP Castle (edin).
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
    106 years since the LibDems won a general election :lol:

    *runs and hides*
    Yebbut only 5 months since they got defeated in a referendum on their sacred cow.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @realDonaldTrump: Jeb Bush just talked about my border proposal to build a "fence." It's not a fence, Jeb, it's a WALL, and there's a BIG difference!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    nunu said:

    Just following from my point below...

    The US have got themselves in a ridiculous situation. 11m+ illegals, and now huge number of businesses have grown up where their business model depends on being able to hire them normally on terrible terms and conditions.

    Yes, which is why the Republican Congress won't pay for a deportation force, big business will lobby against it.
    Trump will only have to call out the legislators who have cold feet and 'operation purge cucks' will swing into action.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    edited November 2016

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us. He gives the impression Britain is swooning over Trump when, in fact, he is deeply unpopular here.

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting it. He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited November 2016
    Ed to win Strictly at 20-1 more like 200,000-1 (no bet offers please).
    Mr Smithson thinks he is a smooth operator.. As soon as Strictly is over and (if serious about a return) Ed has to say the unsayable, his popularity will revert to what it was before.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

    I think they'll regret it for more reasons that that. Trump is about America first Realpolitik. If people like Farage start assuming he owes them favours they will find themselves out of favour in short order.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    @realDonaldTrump: Jeb Bush just talked about my border proposal to build a "fence." It's not a fence, Jeb, it's a WALL, and there's a BIG difference!

    Donald's got control of his twitter back again I see....Its going to be BIG, its going to be BEAUTIFUL,....
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    He won't win strictly - sooner or later the fact that he is forcing the elimination of people who can actually dance will catch up with him, as it did John Sergeant. Like Sergeant, he may well have to pull out voluntarily when he reaches the point where he is alienating as much as entertaining.

    As a politician it will take a little time to persuade me that the childish know-it-all who sat arrogantly gurning and gesticulating during PMQs is fit for a return to front-line politics. That we are speculating at all is more a comment on the abject state of Labour than a compliment to Balls.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Just following from my point below...

    The US have got themselves in a ridiculous situation. 11m+ illegals, and now huge number of businesses have grown up where their business model depends on being able to hire them normally on terrible terms and conditions.

    Sounds familiar...
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    edited November 2016
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.

    Isn't the point about Chinese investment that it comes with no strings, except that deals are honoured?

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I think Yvette Cooper might benefit from the Ed surge.

    That was not an image I wanted.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    All of the above is comic.

    If there was any real interest in stopping employment of illegals, it could be done in a matter of days -

    Make employment of an illegal a $100,000 fine for the employer. Half goes to the INS budget, half to the general treasury. And the employer also has to pay for a 1st class flight home for the illegal and his/her entire family. Business class not allowed.

    Suddenly every INS agent would be checking everything and everyone....

    Suggest that. Giggle as the tumbleweed rolls by in silence as the anti-immigration types look at their shoes. And wonder about their gardener....


    I seemed to remember one state in the past couple of years severely increased the fines for employing illegals and also ability for law enforcement to ask people to produce their documentation and if people couldn't they could be deported...and there was massive uproar about this.
    The Supreme Court under both Roberts and Renquist repeatedly blocked moves that would affect illegal immigrants. For example, post 9/11 there was a law that required documentation proving you had a right to be in America before opening a bank account that was struck down.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    I think Yvette Cooper might benefit from the Ed surge.

    Hard to see that, if people switch from wondering how such a pleasant woman ended up with such a boorish oaf, to wondering how such a boring woman ended up with such a fun-filled fellow?
  • Options

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us. He gives the impression Britain is swooning over Trump when, in fact, he is deeply unpopular here.

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting it. He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

    Trump is paying homage to Farage, his guide and friend.
    Blair's craven attitude towards Bush was genuinely humiliating and worse for Britain.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.

    Isn't the point about Chinese investment comes with no strings, except that deals are honoured?

    In a sell your soul to the devil sort of way, I guess.
  • Options

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

    I think they'll regret it for more reasons that that. Trump is about America first Realpolitik. If people like Farage start assuming he owes them favours they will find themselves out of favour in short order.

    Yes, that too. There will come a time soon after 20th January when Nigel finds Donald will not return his calls.

  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.

    Isn't the point about Chinese investment comes with no strings, except that deals are honoured?

    In a sell your soul to the devil sort of way, I guess.

    That's international trade and investment for you. It's how it works. China is already pouring money into Brazil. It will happily do the same in Mexico if NAFTA ceases to be a barrier.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    All of the above is comic.

    If there was any real interest in stopping employment of illegals, it could be done in a matter of days -

    Make employment of an illegal a $100,000 fine for the employer. Half goes to the INS budget, half to the general treasury. And the employer also has to pay for a 1st class flight home for the illegal and his/her entire family. Business class not allowed.

    Suddenly every INS agent would be checking everything and everyone....

    Suggest that. Giggle as the tumbleweed rolls by in silence as the anti-immigration types look at their shoes. And wonder about their gardener....


    I seemed to remember one state in the past couple of years severely increased the fines for employing illegals and also ability for law enforcement to ask people to produce their documentation and if people couldn't they could be deported...and there was massive uproar about this.
    The Supreme Court under both Roberts and Renquist repeatedly blocked moves that would affect illegal immigrants. For example, post 9/11 there was a law that required documentation proving you had a right to be in America before opening a bank account that was struck down.
    This was what I was thinking of....

    http://nation.time.com/2012/09/07/immigration-update-arizona-police-can-now-ask-papers-please/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.
    I guess my point is that Pax Americana brought the US many advantages that they may throw away without really thinking about it.

    Take European NATO members. Yes, they all spent too little on defence, and relied on the US. But the corollary of that is that they had to defer to the US and the US had an effective veto on their foreign policies. That will change.
  • Options
    shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.
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    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. At this moment new parts of the existing fencing is going up. Will a solid high wall follow, I don't know, but it's easier to do than you think; just ask the Israelis.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.


    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.
    I guess my point is that Pax Americana brought the US many advantages that they may throw away without really thinking about it.

    Take European NATO members. Yes, they all spent too little on defence, and relied on the US. But the corollary of that is that they had to defer to the US and the US had an effective veto on their foreign policies. That will change.
    Another aspect of this weird Rembrance Sunday. In just a few months we might be actively persuading the Germans to rearm.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    That's international trade and investment for you. It's how it works. China is already pouring money into Brazil. It will happily do the same in Mexico if NAFTA ceases to be a barrier.


    Of course, why so you think I've always been so opposed to Chinese investment or any kind of free trade deal with China that depends on the UK opening up investment without the reverse being true.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    If David Herdson hadn't been so adept at defenestration, we would have been spared the sight of Ed Balls Gangnam Style.

    On the other had he could have been leading Labour.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    FPT
    In answer to rcs1000 question on the Mexican border wall:

    The Mexican government will be made to pay. It may not all be in dollars, but pay they will. is.

    The wall policy has got the most incredulous reaction, when it is the least unrealistic trump policy. If you can send a man to the moon or monitor every persons electronic communications, you can build a wall. If it is effective is another matter.
    And there is a wall/fence along the parts of the wall.

    There is nothing ridiculous, as you say, about building a wall.

    But it is worth remembering that more than 95% of the 11m illegals in the US did not get there by walking across the Rio Grande. They did it by crossing the border legally and the not returning.
    I think visa deposits will be enforced for Mexicans, maybe $10-15k per person. Plus the wall/fence and visa charges it could be an effective deterrent for overstays as well as people smuggling.
    A middle class family of five will not be going to Disney on holiday then!

    Truth be told, as in the UK, the most useful thing would be to crack down on undocumented workers. People come foe work. Make it harder to work, fewer people come. (See Switzerland.)
    Well yes, but I don't think Mexican tourism is worth that much for the US economy. They will probably just live without it.
    The biggest impact would surely be that Latin American countries (and you'd probably have to include all of them, otherwise you'll just swap Guatamalans and Mexicans) would fall under the influence of China.

    If the US left NAFTA and imposed swingeing restrictions on the ability of Mexicans to visit the US, could you see any other outcome?
    The question is whether the US will care. I think the US is in an isolationist mood. I also think the Chinese sphere of influence comes with many more strings attached than US influence, so countries may not fall in line as easily.
    I guess my point is that Pax Americana brought the US many advantages that they may throw away without really thinking about it.

    Take European NATO members. Yes, they all spent too little on defence, and relied on the US. But the corollary of that is that they had to defer to the US and the US had an effective veto on their foreign policies. That will change.
    Exactly. America paying 75% of the bill for 85% of the power doesn't seem such a bad deal. If they want to pay say 50% then, fine, but will newly Great America ever settle for just 50-60% of the power?
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    shiney2 said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.
    Farage is the most popular and respected British political figure amongst Italians by a great distance. Senza paragone.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    rcs1000 said:

    I guess my point is that Pax Americana brought the US many advantages that they may throw away without really thinking about it.

    Take European NATO members. Yes, they all spent too little on defence, and relied on the US. But the corollary of that is that they had to defer to the US and the US had an effective veto on their foreign policies. That will change.

    Question for you: Given President Trump is now a reality, do you still see Brexit as a fundamental national interest for the UK or should we recognise that there is now a fundamentally different set of circumstances?
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    shiney2 said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.
    Is he ? Brexit means Brexit is one thing. Brexit means NAFTA is quite another. Farage has always enjoyed being a Moon pulling the Tides in the Tory Party. And a Brexit so extreme the backlash keeps us in the eurosphere suits Farage well in many ways.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    edited November 2016

    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
    106 years since the LibDems won a general election :lol:

    *runs and hides*
    1906 and 1945 (and perhaps 1979) were our great reforming governments. Labour has had plenty more goes; surely it will soon be time that the Liberals were given a second chance? Walking up the populist cul-de-sac won't take forever.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    I guess my point is that Pax Americana brought the US many advantages that they may throw away without really thinking about it.

    Take European NATO members. Yes, they all spent too little on defence, and relied on the US. But the corollary of that is that they had to defer to the US and the US had an effective veto on their foreign policies. That will change.

    Yes I agree with that, but as I said, America doesn't seem to give a shit about the rest of the world. However, China is more interested in hollowing out the countries in which they invest, it seems if the US is moving to that model then it's not guaranteed that all nations will throw their lot in with China.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited November 2016

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us. He gives the impression Britain is swooning over Trump when, in fact, he is deeply unpopular here.

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting it. He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

    Le Pen never really cosied up to Trump like Farage did, she made one congratulatory tweet after he won and that was it. No appearances at Trump rallies or post-victory trips to Trump Tower for her. Her anti immigration, anti globalisation populism is very French, just as Trump's was very American and Boris' and Farage's very British. I expect Le Pen would go down as badly in America as Trump does in France but it is the same forces driving their rise. While Trump is unpopular here nonetheless as Comres today shows a plurality of Britons think his victory makes it easier for the UK to get a trade deal with the US so realpolitik is not far below the surface here either
  • Options
    shiney2 said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.

    No, he's making himself and us look ridiculous. Obviously, some people won't have a problem with that.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    shiney2 said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.
    Farage is the most popular and respected British political figure amongst Italians by a great distance. Senza paragone.
    If the Italians have a predominant fault it is that they value the wrapping almost more than the contents.
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    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    IanB2 said:

    nielh said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Telegraph: Exclusive: Nigel Farage reveals Donald Trump's team has 'reservations' about Theresa May's Government. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwzYmwtTA

    bye bye Boris?
    Its just a shitty photoshoot. Farage is nothing more than a tourist as he admits himself and he's trying to milk it for everything it is worth.
    Farage changed history, but in the manner of an arsonist or one of Eric Pickles shitty armchair auditors.
    He doesn't have any interest in actually running anything or being a serious politician.
    Indeed. Farage failed SEVEN times to become an MP
    106 years since the LibDems won a general election :lol:

    *runs and hides*
    1906 and 1945 (and perhaps 1979) were our great reforming governments. Labour has had plenty more goes; surely it will soon be time that the Liberals were given a second chance? Walking up the populist cul-de-sac won't take forever.
    But someone's built a temple at the end of it....
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    IanB2 said:

    shiney2 said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.
    Farage is the most popular and respected British political figure amongst Italians by a great distance. Senza paragone.
    If the Italians have a predominant fault it is that they value the wrapping almost more than the contents.
    I find the cowardice, spite and dishonesty more dominant.
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    HYUFD said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us. He gives the impression Britain is swooning over Trump when, in fact, he is deeply unpopular here.

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting it. He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

    Le Pen never really cosied up to Trump like Farage did, she made one congratulatory tweet after he won and that was it. No appearances at Trump rallies or post-victory trips to Trump Tower for her. Her anti immigration, anti globalisation populism is very French, just as Trump's was very American and Boris' and Farage's very British. I expect Le Pen would go down as badly in America as Trump does in France but it is the same forces driving their rise. While Trump is unpopular here nonetheless as Comres today shows a plurality of Britons think his victory makes it easier for the UK to get a trade deal with the US so realpolitik is not far below the surface here either
    'Networking'

    'Le Pens to work with Trump’s campaign manager as Front National support surges'

    http://tinyurl.com/jlb4drs
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    shiney2 said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us.


    Ok, I accept he is humiliating you.

    But, me - not so much.

    He's doing a fine job of sticking it to the know alls who demonstrably know very little - and enjoying every moment.

    No, he's making himself and us look ridiculous. Obviously, some people won't have a problem with that.

    What really made us look ridiculous is second-raters like Cameron and Javid (and a first-rater, Boris) slagging off Trump to win short-term popularity. Not wise for those in government to insult a potential and now actual world leader.
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    HYUFD said:

    I see that May's humiliation at the hands of Farage continues apace. Farage can plausibly argue that he's now Britain's most powerful human being. Surely it won't be long before we learn that Theresa has requested a meeting with Nigel, at a time and place of his choosing. In some ways I feel sorry for May, but there's also a salutary lesson: you must always confront people like that; try to accommodate them and they'll destroy you with relish.

    Farage is humiliating all of us. He gives the impression Britain is swooning over Trump when, in fact, he is deeply unpopular here.

    Longer term, European politicians cosying up to Trump may end up regretting it. He is not a favourite in Europe. Le Pen, for example, could well suffer as her rivals stir up the latent anti-Americanism that does not lie too far below the surface in France.

    Le Pen never really cosied up to Trump like Farage did, she made one congratulatory tweet after he won and that was it. While Trump is unpopular here nonetheless as Comres today shows a plurality of Britons think his victory makes it easier for the UK to get a trade deal with the US so realpolitik is not far below the surface here either

    We'll see what actually happens, but polls suggest Trump is not well liked here. As for Le Pen, the FN and her family are hugging Trump close:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2016/11/09/25001-20161109ARTFIG00037-election-americaine-le-fn-applaudit-trump-avant-meme-le-resultat.php
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Danny Mac and Oti will surely win Strictly in the end, though Ed Balls will likely continue his run for a while yet (he is the John Sergeant, Ann Widdecombe figure this year)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    shiney2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    shiney2 said:

    He's really going to do it:

    "Within minutes of his comments CBS released an excerpt from its interview with Mr Trump, however, in which he made clear that the mass deportations will be going ahead. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/13/donald-trump-vows-to-immediately-deport-3million-illegal-immigra/

    President Le Pen, and esp PrimeMinister Wilders, are looking more and more likely.

    Let's assume that the PVV gets 25%, that still probably doesn't lead to PM Wilders given the perfectly proportional nature of the Dutch electoral system.
    Didn't say certain or even probably, just more likely. But that likelihood looks set to grow as the USA does the 'impossible' and of course the President reaps the popularity. It's usually easier to follow..
    I think we over do spillover between countries; it is more the case that the circumstances that lead the rise of insurgent political movements (i.e. stagnant real wages since 1999) are true across much of the developed world (the UK, the US, Japan), and therefore the political response is similar.

    I suspect that the two round nature of elections in France makes it less likely Mme Le Pen makes it there.

    In the Netherlands, while I assumed that the PVV was likely to top the polls (and they were a long way clear earlier this year and last year), they are now lagging the VVD meaningfully. It may be that there are understated; but even if they are, the proportional nature of the Dutch political system, which ensures that they would need to partner with at least one (and probably two) of D66 (Eurofanatics who topped the Euroelection polls), the Greens, Labour Party, the Socialists, and the Christian Democrats. That severely restrains their ability to do anything.
    Of the 3 polls this month, 2 have the VVD ahead and 1 has the PVV and VVD tied and we all know the polls have underestimated the populists' so far
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Dutch_general_election,_2017
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