politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB 7 points ahead in new Populus online poll

System

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB 7 points ahead in new Populus online poll

It has done a lot of work for the Conservative party and Michael Ashcroft over the years and, indeed, the former boss, Andrew Cooper, now works at Number 10.

Read the full story here

MaxPB

I think Populus are being fair. During the election campaign, the Tories and other main parties are going to drown out UKIP, especially with the Tories going in with a referendum manifesto pledge and hard immigration reforms as their central planks of policy (we are talking about a Lynton Crosby campaign after all).

In that sense it will be a case of UKIP out of sight, out of mind, and treating them like that for GE polling makes sense. For EU elections polling they should get a prompt though.

TGOHF

Has anyone tried not prompting for any party ?

OblitusSumMe

MaxPB said:

I think Populus are being fair. During the election campaign, the Tories and other main parties are going to drown out UKIP, especially with the Tories going in with a referendum manifesto pledge and hard immigration reforms as their central planks of policy (we are talking about a Lynton Crosby campaign after all).

In that sense it will be a case of UKIP out of sight, out of mind, and treating them like that for GE polling makes sense. For EU elections polling they should get a prompt though.

When the voter has the ballot paper in hand they will find a UKIP candidate in pretty much every constituency, just as in 2010. I would think that using the [party] candidate list from the last election would be the best way of deciding this, as it would also go some way to weed out those people who might want to vote Green, but wouldn't have a candidate.

Given that the polling company has your postcode, this wouldn't be hard to set up.

RichardNabavi

Populus is a serious polling company with a good record on political polling in the UK, so it's best to assume that they know what they're doing. In particular, they say they have calibrated their new on-line methodology so that the results are as comparable as possible with their traditional phone-based polls.

In fact this poll doesn't show much change from their last telephone poll of 16 December 2012, which was Con 29, Lab 40, LD 11.

MarkSenior

Not prompting for UKIP does not seem to have hit the number of respondents saying they would vote UKIP in this poll . Populus did some drastic weighting adjustments reducing the number saying they would vote UKIP from 256 to 143 . This was because their sample contained 169 UKIP identifiers compared to the 20 it should have contained .
Yougov always shows similar oversampling of UKIP IDers in it's online samples . Whether this is caused by UKIP supporters stacking online polling panels or being keener to respond to polls when asked or some other reason I do not know but it is surely worth some investigation of this phenomenon . .

Quincel

Polling is about accuracy, not fairness. Until we have data to show that prompting for UKIP gives more accurate figures it is wrong to criticise pollsters for not doing so. Speaking of the local elections, wasn't there that ComRes poll which predicted their strong showing very accurately? Do we know if it prompted?

OblitusSumMe

Populus say this about prompting for UKIP:

One final point. There has been much debate recently about whether to include UKIP at the first stage of asking people’s voting intention by offering the party as an answer option in its own right alongside the three main parties rather than only presenting it as a possible answer to those who choose “Another Party” at the first time of asking (known as the primary prompt).

Different pollsters do these things differently and Populus will continue to keep the matter under review; however until such time as there is convincing evidence that Populus polls are systematically understating the number of people who say they would vote UKIP at a General Election, Populus will continue its current practice of offering the party as an answer option only to those saying they would vote for another party if there was a General Election tomorrow.

It looks as though Populus are willing to let the next general election judge whether they should prompt for UKIP.

As we know, the pesky realities of actual votes cast and counted, can make a mockery of even the most golden of rules.

Quincel

We need an election before the GE to test both theories on, polls with and without prompting to see which is closest. Really we could have done with a good amount of polling for the 2013 locals, but now it is the 2014 Euros or bust. Which is problematic, because they are more different from a GE in terms of UKIP than a local election is. So 2015 will involve some guesswork. Exciting, but unnerving.

isam

Owen Jones, patroniser of the working class, the song "Common People" could have been written about him (if he was a girl!)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100226457/to-owen-jones-and-other-middle-class-leftists-horny-handed-working-people-are-an-exotic-tribe-to-be-fawned-over-and-photographed/

RichardNabavi

MarkSenior said:

. Whether this is caused by UKIP supporters stacking online polling panels or being keener to respond to polls when asked or some other reason I do not know but it is surely worth some investigation of this phenomenon . .

The latter (keenness) surely; it's a well-known phenomenon. Peter Kellner gives a good example here in relation to the polling shift when Romney appeared to get the better of Obama in the first debate last year:

YouGov’s data indicates that Republicans were slightly keener than Democrats to respond to the second survey. This is consistent with other occasions when polls have tended to show movement after specific events, notably post-convention bounces. The figures for Republican ID tend to rise after Republican conventions, and for Democratic ID to rise after Democratic conventions. Past panel-based surveys indicate that this reflects shifts in response rates among Democrat and Republican voters, not significant changes in voters’ attitudes to each party.

http://today.yougov.com/news/2012/10/23/obama-stays-ahead-just/

Incidentally, it seems unlikely that the following are both true:

1) UKIP supporters are fired up and excited
2) Not prompting for UKIP means they are being hugely under-represented.

MaxPB

MarkSenior said:

Not prompting for UKIP does not seem to have hit the number of respondents saying they would vote UKIP in this poll . Populus did some drastic weighting adjustments reducing the number saying they would vote UKIP from 256 to 143 . This was because their sample contained 169 UKIP identifiers compared to the 20 it should have contained .
Yougov always shows similar oversampling of UKIP IDers in it's online samples . Whether this is caused by UKIP supporters stacking online polling panels or being keener to respond to polls when asked or some other reason I do not know but it is surely worth some investigation of this phenomenon . .

Mark, go and read the comments section of the Telegraph and it might make you think the whole country is going to vote for UKIP!

MarkSenior

RichardNabavi said:

MarkSenior said:

. Whether this is caused by UKIP supporters stacking online polling panels or being keener to respond to polls when asked or some other reason I do not know but it is surely worth some investigation of this phenomenon . .

The latter (keenness) surely; it's a well-known phenomenon. Peter Kellner gives a good example here in relation to the polling shift when Romney appeared to get the better of Obama in the first debate last year:

YouGov’s data indicates that Republicans were slightly keener than Democrats to respond to the second survey. This is consistent with other occasions when polls have tended to show movement after specific events, notably post-convention bounces. The figures for Republican ID tend to rise after Republican conventions, and for Democratic ID to rise after Democratic conventions. Past panel-based surveys indicate that this reflects shifts in response rates among Democrat and Republican voters, not significant changes in voters’ attitudes to each party.

http://today.yougov.com/news/2012/10/23/obama-stays-ahead-just/

Incidentally, it seems unlikely that the following are both true:

1) UKIP supporters are fired up and excited
2) Not prompting for UKIP means they are being hugely under-represented.

Richard , thanks for that link , I was not aware of that research .

Plato

RT @MarkReckons: I've just found a note in my drawer from Liam Byrne. It reads "There's no policy differentiation left". < LOL

MarkSenior

MaxPB said:

MarkSenior said:

Not prompting for UKIP does not seem to have hit the number of respondents saying they would vote UKIP in this poll . Populus did some drastic weighting adjustments reducing the number saying they would vote UKIP from 256 to 143 . This was because their sample contained 169 UKIP identifiers compared to the 20 it should have contained .
Yougov always shows similar oversampling of UKIP IDers in it's online samples . Whether this is caused by UKIP supporters stacking online polling panels or being keener to respond to polls when asked or some other reason I do not know but it is surely worth some investigation of this phenomenon . .

Mark, go and read the comments section of the Telegraph and it might make you think the whole country is going to vote for UKIP!

I don't need to go to the Telegraph comments a visit to the comments sections of Conservativehome gives the same picture !!!!

surbiton

Add 5 to UKIP, take away 4 from the Tories and 1 from Labour and there you have it.

It is silly not to prompt for UKIP. After all, the ballot paper and General Election publicity will prompt them.

MarkSenior

surbiton said:

Add 5 to UKIP, take away 4 from the Tories and 1 from Labour and there you have it.

It is silly not to prompt for UKIP. After all, the ballot paper and General Election publicity will prompt them.

There you have what ??

As I have already posted prompting or not prompting did not effect the UKIP figures in this poll . The weighting for Party ID did effect it greatly .

frpenkridge

There's hardly a story in the DT, from kings in the car park to mammoths' DNA that doesn't elicit a call to vote for ukip and worship St Nigel.

Plato

OUCH

"At the weekend Mr Jones spoke at the Durham Miners’ Gala, and the whole thing revealed how anthropological the modern radical Left has become, the extent to which youthful Leftists now treat working-class people as exotic creatures in a political zoo to be photographed and patted. The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

They’re the salt of the earth, these rough-handed northerners, and no mistake! According to a Sky News report, Mr Jones “spoke for the people”. What people? The London-based media professionals he hobnobs with?

...Mr Jones and his media friends treated Durham’s miners the same way other middle-class youngsters treat villagers they happen upon in a rural bit of Rwanda: as intriguingly and effortlessly decent, noble creatures who one must simply be photographed standing next to. They tweeted pics of themselves with these cute creatures. In his speech, Mr Jones referred to the miners as “ordinary working people” (ordinary: “regular, normal, customary” – OED) and said these poor, grafting folk are often “faceless, forgotten, ignored”. Not any more – now they’re all over Twitter and Facebook and are having their nobility celebrated in the Guardian, courtesy of their middle-class, Dickensian patrons down in London.

It’s so extraordinarily patronising. "

isam said:

Owen Jones, patroniser of the working class, the song "Common People" could have been written about him (if he was a girl!)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100226457/to-owen-jones-and-other-middle-class-leftists-horny-handed-working-people-are-an-exotic-tribe-to-be-fawned-over-and-photographed/

AndreaParma_82

The man headbutted in front of Hampstead and Kilburn Labour selection meeting was apparently wearing a Unite t-shirt

OblitusSumMe

In the data tables one can see that the Greens pick up as many 2010 Lib Dem voters as the Conservatives, putting them on 4%.

TGOHF

tim said:

"there ain't no devil there's just god when he's drunk"
Tom Waits

Most UKIP'ers are drunk Tories, how many will Dave manage to get sober and into the polling booth?

What we do know is that giving them stronger liquor marked Immigration and Europe just encourages them.

What is the Faragian version of a cyber nat ?

Netkipper ?

isam

Plato said:

OUCH

"At the weekend Mr Jones spoke at the Durham Miners’ Gala, and the whole thing revealed how anthropological the modern radical Left has become, the extent to which youthful Leftists now treat working-class people as exotic creatures in a political zoo to be photographed and patted. The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

They’re the salt of the earth, these rough-handed northerners, and no mistake! According to a Sky News report, Mr Jones “spoke for the people”. What people? The London-based media professionals he hobnobs with?

...Mr Jones and his media friends treated Durham’s miners the same way other middle-class youngsters treat villagers they happen upon in a rural bit of Rwanda: as intriguingly and effortlessly decent, noble creatures who one must simply be photographed standing next to. They tweeted pics of themselves with these cute creatures. In his speech, Mr Jones referred to the miners as “ordinary working people” (ordinary: “regular, normal, customary” – OED) and said these poor, grafting folk are often “faceless, forgotten, ignored”. Not any more – now they’re all over Twitter and Facebook and are having their nobility celebrated in the Guardian, courtesy of their middle-class, Dickensian patrons down in London.

It’s so extraordinarily patronising. "

isam said:

Owen Jones, patroniser of the working class, the song "Common People" could have been written about him (if he was a girl!)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100226457/to-owen-jones-and-other-middle-class-leftists-horny-handed-working-people-are-an-exotic-tribe-to-be-fawned-over-and-photographed/

If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi

TGOHF

AndreaParma_82 said:

The man headbutted in front of Hampstead and Kilburn Labour selection meeting was apparently wearing a Unite t-shirt

No jury could convict him given that evidence.

MikeK

No prompting for the party advancing in peoples minds and thoughts - UKIP, means that from now on Populus is next to useless as front rank pollster.

TOPPING

TGOHF said:

AndreaParma_82 said:

The man headbutted in front of Hampstead and Kilburn Labour selection meeting was apparently wearing a Unite t-shirt

No jury could convict him given that evidence.

No, I am Spartacus.

SouthamObserver

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

Financier

OblitusSumMe said:

In the data tables one can see that the Greens pick up as many 2010 Lib Dem voters as the Conservatives, putting them on 4%.

The Sunday polls were similar. COMRES showed 7% of 2010 LDs to Green whilst YouGov showed 6%.

isam

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

taffys

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

TGOHF

MikeK said:

No prompting for the party advancing in peoples minds and thoughts - UKIP, means that from now on Populus is next to useless as front rank pollster.

Quite right - and of course any other pollster which puts Ukip on less than the 88% they achieve in the gold standard Telegraph comments.

isam

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

Life_ina_market_town

The draft The Court of Appeal (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2013 has now been laid before Parliament, pursuant to section 32 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013. To come into force, it must be approved by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament, and crucially must have the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice. Filming of all hearings in the Civil Division, barring family proceedings will be permitted. Filming of all hearings in the Criminal Division, bar appeals against findings of mental disability and applications for writs of venire de novo, will also be allowed. Providing Parliament approves the draft Order, and the Chief concurs, we may see the televising of the Senior Courts of England and Wales for the first time in history by October.

SouthamObserver

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

AlastairMeeks

Surely the UKIP online contingent are the Purple Nasties.

isam

tim said:

TGOHF said:

tim said:

"there ain't no devil there's just god when he's drunk"
Tom Waits

Most UKIP'ers are drunk Tories, how many will Dave manage to get sober and into the polling booth?

What we do know is that giving them stronger liquor marked Immigration and Europe just encourages them.

What is the Faragian version of a cyber nat ?

Netkipper ?

The Gaarden Meinoff

Could you give examples of what you would consider acceptable evidence of a lack of assimilation by immigrants? Or is it a question you ask because there is no answer you would accept?

isam

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

I know you were not.

You & tim seem to disagree on this one.

But I agree with you about Owen Jones,

Plato

isam said:

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

I am delighted whenever Mr Jones is given yet more airtime on the BBC - its like nails on the electoral blackboard.

SouthamObserver

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Looks like we agree that the government was wrong to take away benefits paid to the working poor and to imply that those on benefits are idle scroungers when most of them are either pensioners or in work.

isam

Plato said:

isam said:

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

I am delighted whenever Mr Jones is given yet more airtime on the BBC - its like nails on the electoral blackboard.

I am torn between hating him, & feeling sorry for him/worrying that I was like that when I was younger.

Same with Russell Brand

So I switch over!

taffys

Smart Tories like David Skelton get it.

Skelton seems to advocate freezing or cutting fuel duty and jacking up the lower band tax thresholds ever higher.

It wouldn;t surprise me at all if the government did just that before we get to 2015.

SouthamObserver

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

I know you were not.

You & tim seem to disagree on this one.

But I agree with you about Owen Jones,

I imagine me and Tim are in agreement about Owen Jones, and about the meat of Skelton's article. One of the defining aspects of working class life in much of the UK was the trade union movement, as Skelton recognises. In parts of the UK it still is.

TGOHF

taffys said:

Smart Tories like David Skelton get it.

Skelton seems to advocate freezing or cutting fuel duty and jacking up the lower band tax thresholds ever higher.

It wouldn;t surprise me at all if the government did just that before we get to 2015.

Excellent ideas.

Plato

isam said:

Plato said:

isam said:

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

I am delighted whenever Mr Jones is given yet more airtime on the BBC - its like nails on the electoral blackboard.

I am torn between hating him, & feeling sorry for him/worrying that I was like that when I was younger.

Same with Russell Brand

So I switch over!

Mr Jones makes Rik from the Young Ones seem a plausible Lefty!

isam

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

I know you were not.

You & tim seem to disagree on this one.

But I agree with you about Owen Jones,

I imagine me and Tim are in agreement about Owen Jones, and about the meat of Skelton's article. One of the defining aspects of working class life in much of the UK was the trade union movement, as Skelton recognises. In parts of the UK it still is.

My apologies, I thought you were reacting to Tories on here slagging Jones by quoting Skelton, with the intention of showing that both he and Jones were patronising the Durham miners.

"Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield."

Roger

@MarkSenior

"Whether this is caused by UKIP supporters stacking online polling panels or being keener to respond to polls when asked or some other reason I do not know but it is surely worth some investigation of this phenomenon . . "

Surely the most likely is the average age of a UKIPer. Most are likely to have retired so have plenty of time to answer online polls and those that haven't are so curmudgeonly that they like nothing more than a good moan to a pollster that doesn't answer back.

[Deleted User]

The Sun's editorial:

WHAT a damning indictment of standards in the NHS that more than ten hospitals are being put in “special measures”.

Horrific as the Mid Staffordshire scandal was, it’s almost impossible to comprehend the scale of up to 13,000 excess deaths at 14 hospitals since 2005.

The NHS is meant to be our pride and joy. It should not be killing us.

Jeremy Hunt is right to take tough measures. Nothing is more important than making sure that hospitals are safe.

So it’s especially shocking that, according to Professor Sir Brian Jarman, Labour health ministers were more concerned with spin than doing their job.

It makes the party’s attacks on the Coalition’s handling of the NHS very hollow.

Ouch!

Plato

taffys said:

Smart Tories like David Skelton get it.

Skelton seems to advocate freezing or cutting fuel duty and jacking up the lower band tax thresholds ever higher.

It wouldn;t surprise me at all if the government did just that before we get to 2015.

Mr Skelton has been a voice of sound reason for quite a while but only recently seems to be getting into the spotlight.

This pdf from 40 MPs has some interesting thoughts as well - its got an intro from the PM so its clearly being smiled on

http://www.platform10.org/2013/07/forty-from-the-forty/

http://www.platform10.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/40-from-the-40-Booklet.pdf

taffys

'Looks like we agree that the government was wrong to take away benefits paid to the working poor and to imply that those on benefits are idle scroungers when most of them are either pensioners or in work.'

I would certainly agree that low paid people should be better off than they have been in the last 10 years.

I would prefer to to it by slashing their direct and indirect taxes rather than redistributing money already collected (partly) from them. Still, the effect remains the same I suppose.

SouthamObserver

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

I know you were not.

You & tim seem to disagree on this one.

But I agree with you about Owen Jones,

I imagine me and Tim are in agreement about Owen Jones, and about the meat of Skelton's article. One of the defining aspects of working class life in much of the UK was the trade union movement, as Skelton recognises. In parts of the UK it still is.

My apologies, I thought you were reacting to Tories on here slagging Jones by quoting Skelton, with the intention of showing that both he and Jones were patronising the Durham miners.

"Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield."

I was. But I still imagine I agree with Tim about Owen Jones and the meat of Skelton's article.

Gerry_Mander

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

I know you were not.

You & tim seem to disagree on this one.

But I agree with you about Owen Jones,

I imagine me and Tim are in agreement about Owen Jones, and about the meat of Skelton's article. One of the defining aspects of working class life in much of the UK was the trade union movement, as Skelton recognises. In parts of the UK it still is.

The trade union movement certainly was for us, when I was growing up. However, since my parents were in businesses that weren't unionised (self employed decorator / shop assistant), we didn't look back on the unions with fond memories.

Life_ina_market_town

The Notices of Amendments given up to and including Friday 12 July 2013, to the European Union (Referendum) Bill, contain the Labour Party's approach to a future referendum on continuing British membership of the European Union. There are a lot of wrecking amendments tabled by Mike Gapes (Lab-Illford South), but the important amendments stand in the name of Emma Reynolds (Lab-Wolverhampton North East), the Shadow Minister for Europe.

Her amendments would remove the mandatory duty to hold a referendum by 31 December 2017, and substitute therefor, a power to hold a referendum if there is a transfer of power (fairly narrowly defined) to the European Union at any date in the future, and ensure that the only question on the ballot paper in such a referendum was ''Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?', as opposed to the questionable phrasing of the question in the current Bill. Her amendments would also significantly increase the level of Parliamentary scrutiny required to make the necessary Statutory Instruments to enable the referendum to take place, and impose a duty to consult with the Electoral Commission.

Is it enough of a policy, and in any event, does it even matter?

isam

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

The gala was embarrassingly described by that high priest of chattering-class values, Giles Fraser, as being all about “the banners, the bands and the beer”, a means for former mining communities “colourfully to proclaim [their] nobility”.

Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10179042/Heres-how-the-Conservatives-can-win-back-the-working-class.html

"I went to the Durham Miners’ Gala on Saturday, as I’ve done most years since I was a child growing up in nearby Consett..."

Could Owen Jones say the same I wonder?

I wasn't referring to Owen Jones, who I believe to be a complete prat. I was merely observing that writers of both the left and right refer to the bright banners and brass bands of the Durham Miners Gala.

I know you were not.

You & tim seem to disagree on this one.

But I agree with you about Owen Jones,

I imagine me and Tim are in agreement about Owen Jones, and about the meat of Skelton's article. One of the defining aspects of working class life in much of the UK was the trade union movement, as Skelton recognises. In parts of the UK it still is.

My apologies, I thought you were reacting to Tories on here slagging Jones by quoting Skelton, with the intention of showing that both he and Jones were patronising the Durham miners.

"Yup, that kind of language is unbelievably embarrassing ...

IInstead, the beating heart of the occasion is in the parade of banners and brass bands through the most beautiful city in the country, each representing one of the pits in the once-mighty Durham coalfield."

I was. But I still imagine I agree with Tim about Owen Jones and the meat of Skelton's article.

Oh right.

What did tim say about Owen Jones that you agree with?

Cyclefree

I thought that the last deep coal mines in county Durham had been closed. Are there any actual working miners left in Durham?

Cyclefree

Since unions seem to be a bit more in the news these days, perhaps we should have a completely unscientific poll as to how many PB-ers are or ever have been union members?

I shall start by saying that I was once a TGWU member.

I assume Nick P has union membership. Anyone else?

Plato

Unison, CWU and STE for a total period of about 12yrs

Cyclefree said:

Since unions seem to be a bit more in the news these days, perhaps we should have a completely unscientific poll as to how many PB-ers are or ever have been union members?

I shall start by saying that I was once a TGWU member.

I assume Nick P has union membership. Anyone else?

Life_ina_market_town

Theresa May is hopelessly trying to justify conferring on the Court of Justice and European Commission criminal jurisdiction in the United Kingdom for the first time in history as an act of Euroscepticism. The Minister is a charlatan.

richardDodd

CF Union membership AEU..NUM..ACTT..BECTU.

Plato

Just reading that O'Neill article again - it isn't often a single piece can have me LOL, grimacing and thinking 'you're kidding' in the space of so few words.

"Of course, Mr Jones isn’t the only young Leftist who looks upon working people as ordinary yet heroic, savage as well as noble. Who can forget when the radical anti-tax dodging collective UK Uncut invited its impeccably middle-class members to attend one of its demos “dressed as a worker” – a PC version of blacking up. Or when a Royal College of Art Student designed “Arthur Scargill chic” clothes, including a green donkey jacket and tatty bobble hats, for youths to dress up in. It seems that for the new generation of Leftists, born after the political defeat of working-class movements, workers are just odd creatures from a bygone era, whose hilarious styles we should copy and whose sad, little villages we should visit and check into on Facebook.

The thrill modern Leftists get from shoulder-rubbing with working tribes might explain why they’re so hostile to any attempt by working people to move up the social ladder, to stop being working class. Mr Jones heaps opprobrium on these folk in his book, accusing them of having been won over by Thatcherite “dog-eat-dog individualism” and failing to celebrate their “working classness” (oh, Jesus)."

Gerry_Mander

taffys said:

'Looks like we agree that the government was wrong to take away benefits paid to the working poor and to imply that those on benefits are idle scroungers when most of them are either pensioners or in work.'

I would certainly agree that low paid people should be better off than they have been in the last 10 years.

I would prefer to to it by slashing their direct and indirect taxes rather than redistributing money already collected (partly) from them. Still, the effect remains the same I suppose.

The effect might remain the same to the people who are having money taken away and then given back. However, for the people who administer this, it is their livelihood, and a reason to be thankful to big government.

Plato

richardDodd said:

CF Union membership AEU..NUM..ACTT..BECTU.

Back when I was at college - the AEU HQ was just round the corner and it had IIRC quite a dishy Gen Sec - do you recall who that was? - I'm thinking mid 80s. He came across on the telly as a very sensible fellow but he disappeared without trace in the morass of the Loony Left.

Plato

I read an article earlier that said Gordon's tax credits were recycling £171bn in 6yrs - what an enormous create-work exercise that was.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100226375/the-left-has-lost-its-moral-compass-on-welfare/

Gerry_Mander said:

taffys said:

'Looks like we agree that the government was wrong to take away benefits paid to the working poor and to imply that those on benefits are idle scroungers when most of them are either pensioners or in work.'

I would certainly agree that low paid people should be better off than they have been in the last 10 years.

I would prefer to to it by slashing their direct and indirect taxes rather than redistributing money already collected (partly) from them. Still, the effect remains the same I suppose.

The effect might remain the same to the people who are having money taken away and then given back. However, for the people who administer this, it is their livelihood, and a reason to be thankful to big government.

Mick_Pork

Plato said:

isam said:

Plato said:

isam said:

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

I am delighted whenever Mr Jones is given yet more airtime on the BBC - its like nails on the electoral blackboard.

I am torn between hating him, & feeling sorry for him/worrying that I was like that when I was younger.

Same with Russell Brand

So I switch over!

Mr Jones makes Rik from the Young Ones seem a plausible Lefty!

Spoken like a true "serial labour voter".

*tears of laughter etc.*

richardDodd

PLATO My time as an AEU member was short lived..I was an apprentice boilermaker after I left school, worked a 45 hour week for one pound nine shillings and eleven pence, stamp and tax took that down to 1pound and ten shillings I got ten bob and my mother took the rest I quickly left for the mining industry.. 3 times more money.That was in the fifties.

isam

UKIP to broadcast a series of 50 minute PPBs on BBC1 each Saturday evening from 3rd August

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/stars-insist-bbcs-patriotic-show-i-love-my-country-isnt-a-ukip-advert-8709615.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Mick_Pork

Same old nasty party.

Disability Rights UK ‏@DisRightsUK 4m

Some councils tenfold increase in discretionary housing payment applications since bedroom tax.... http://fb.me/2weYdd3Nv

John Coster ‏@citizenseye 4h

Bedroom tax: Carers facing debt, eviction and food poverty: New Carers UK research shows Government failing to... http://bit.ly/15wN5qi

Crisis ‏@crisis_uk 4h

Why are so many more people becoming homeless? #BedroomTax, 1%benefits uprating, council tax benefit cuts + many more http://www.crisis.org.uk/news.php?id=624

Barnet Alliance ‏@BarnetAlliance 1h

What disabled victims of the bedroom tax are cutting from. http://buff.ly/1bga3bk pic.twitter.com/Eup8tqj8Rh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzzkYhp0Q8

Gerry_Mander

Plato said:

isam said:

Plato said:

isam said:

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

I am delighted whenever Mr Jones is given yet more airtime on the BBC - its like nails on the electoral blackboard.

I am torn between hating him, & feeling sorry for him/worrying that I was like that when I was younger.

Same with Russell Brand

So I switch over!

Mr Jones makes Rik from the Young Ones seem a plausible Lefty!

My first thought was Mr Jones of this parish. My second thought was perhaps the midday sun is affecting Plato.

Aha, now I realise we're talking about Owen Jones ;-)

isam

But what about the scrutiny?!!!

Matthew Goodwin ‏@GoodwinMJ 4m

When #Ukip caused an upset at 2009 Euro elections, they had 16,000 members. Ahead of the 2014 Euros, they now have almost twice that number

Mick_Pork

"But why oh why no prompts for UKIP?

Populus is back doing voting intention surveys which is good news for poll watchers.

The firm built up a strong reputation with its series for the Times which was finally dropped by the paper last year.

It has done a lot of work for the Conservative party and Michael Ashcroft over the years and, indeed, the former boss, Andrew Cooper, now works at Number 10."

I'd presume it's doing this to raise it's profile and help try to get back big customers so it will be doing so with one eye on what the potential buyers of such polling want. In this case populous seems to think polling with no kipper prompt is most useful to that end.

Plato

Some young Lefties probably wouldn't quite see the joke these days... like Yes, Minister - the Young Ones had some excellent and timeless caricatures. Though I never got Mike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZnnkJxoC8

Gerry_Mander said:

Plato said:

isam said:

Plato said:

isam said:

taffys said:

''If Owen Jones turned up talking his usual patronising rubbish in any working class pub I know he'd get his head flushed down the khazi''.

Jones book 'chavs' shows he utterly fails to understand (deliberately? ) a difference between working class people and the workless.

Yet to me the gulf between the working and the workless is massive.

Personally I have a huge respect for people who work for low pay. I have a thousand times more respect for the person who cleans the toilets at waterloo than a family of long term workless.The low paid working class are a world away from the 'workless' for me.

Indeed, I have more respect for the cleaner than I do for the person who runs railtrack.

And this is where the left is going wrong. Just today we hear the TUC say most of the jobs created by the tories are 'low paid' jobs. Ie not jobs at all really. Not worthy of respect. Only mugs would take them.

And yet for me the people doing these jobs are worthy of the maximum respect. And they deserve to be represented, helped and rewarded.

Of course.

Ed Miliband should be putting as much distance as possible between his party and the views of Owen Jones if he wants to win back working class voters.

I am delighted whenever Mr Jones is given yet more airtime on the BBC - its like nails on the electoral blackboard.

I am torn between hating him, & feeling sorry for him/worrying that I was like that when I was younger.

Same with Russell Brand

So I switch over!

Mr Jones makes Rik from the Young Ones seem a plausible Lefty!

My first thought was Mr Jones of this parish. My second thought was perhaps the midday sun is affecting Plato.

Aha, now I realise we're talking about Owen Jones ;-)

JohnO

Plato said:

richardDodd said:

CF Union membership AEU..NUM..ACTT..BECTU.

Back when I was at college - the AEU HQ was just round the corner and it had IIRC quite a dishy Gen Sec - do you recall who that was? - I'm thinking mid 80s. He came across on the telly as a very sensible fellow but he disappeared without trace in the morass of the Loony Left.

This chap? He was Gen Sec of AUEW-TASS

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/ken-gill-trade-union-leader-who-put-the-interests-of-his-members-before-his-communist-politics-1695321.html

Mick_Pork

More from intellectual powerhouse and TV and flim obsessive Philomena Cunk. ;^ )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQafqIufnNw

Plato

Not him - imagine more like Andy Burnham with less mascara. This is going to bug me now ... I only really remember him as most TU bosses seemed to be like Eric Heffer.

JohnO said:

Plato said:

richardDodd said:

CF Union membership AEU..NUM..ACTT..BECTU.

Back when I was at college - the AEU HQ was just round the corner and it had IIRC quite a dishy Gen Sec - do you recall who that was? - I'm thinking mid 80s. He came across on the telly as a very sensible fellow but he disappeared without trace in the morass of the Loony Left.

This chap? He was Gen Sec of AUEW-TASS

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/ken-gill-trade-union-leader-who-put-the-interests-of-his-members-before-his-communist-politics-1695321.html

Mick_Pork

David Cameron warned arming Syrian rebels could embroil Britain in all-out war

David Cameron abandoned plans to arm the Syrian rebels after being warned by military chiefs that it could embroil British forces in an all-out war.

Senior military figures have warned the Prime Minister that with the momentum on the side of President Assad's regime, sending small arms and missiles is unlikely to make a difference.

There are also growing concerns that arms sent to Syria could end up in the hands of extremists rather than moderate rebels, potentially presenting a long-term threat to British security.

More significant military intervention, such as introducing a no-fly zone over Syria, could mire Britain in a conflict for months because of the strength of the regime's air defences.

The move represents a significant climb-down by Mr Cameron. He and his Foreign Secretary, William Hague, have been keen to act. In May he demanded an end to the EU arms embargo to give him more options.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10179226/David-Cameron-warned-arming-Syrian-rebels-could-embroil-Britain-in-all-out-war.html

Though on the other hand.

David Jack ‏@DJack_Journo

David Cameron is being urged to do more to intervene in Syria by his wife, Samantha, senior gov't figures say. Our splash in @thetimes

Let's hope Hague is a bit more diplomatic this time.

JackW

The HoL have just passed the Same Sex Marriage Bill at third reading without a division.

Plato

£81k?

Richard Elvin @globalrichard
Labour spend £81,000 on South Shields by election defending one of their safest seats. UKIP must have had them worried.

john_zims

@Mick_Pork

'Same old nasty party.'

Where were you when the other nasty party was implementing identical cuts in the private housing rental sector?

Mick_Pork

Big tobacco has got its way – now let's find what big alcohol is up to

The coalition has dropped plans for plain packaging amid murky circumstances. Public health measures such as this and minimum alcohol pricing deserve better than death by lobbyist

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/15/tobacco-alcohol-public-health-minimum-alcohol-pricing

Another 'lefty' railing against lobbying money.

*chortle*

Pulpstar

Mick_Pork said:

Same old nasty party.

Disability Rights UK ‏@DisRightsUK 4m

Some councils tenfold increase in discretionary housing payment applications since bedroom tax.... http://fb.me/2weYdd3Nv

John Coster ‏@citizenseye 4h

Bedroom tax: Carers facing debt, eviction and food poverty: New Carers UK research shows Government failing to... http://bit.ly/15wN5qi

Crisis ‏@crisis_uk 4h

Why are so many more people becoming homeless? #BedroomTax, 1%benefits uprating, council tax benefit cuts + many more http://www.crisis.org.uk/news.php?id=624

Barnet Alliance ‏@BarnetAlliance 1h

What disabled victims of the bedroom tax are cutting from. http://buff.ly/1bga3bk pic.twitter.com/Eup8tqj8Rh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzzkYhp0Q8

It REALLY irks me that this is continually and constantly referred to as a "tax" when it is no such thing. Do people trying to make a 'point' place little or no value on accurate language to describe their grievance ?!?!?!

Mick_Pork

tim said:

Douglas Carswell MP ‏@DouglasCarswell
Remind me, why is Theresa May, Home Secretary, transfering 30 powers over to Brussels? #BogusEuroScepticism

Doesn't that transfer of powers trigger a referendum?

Under the triple lock? Perhaps it's made of cast iron?
Gullible tory euroscreptics only care when the kippers make them care.

Mick_Pork

Pulpstar said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzzkYhp0Q8

It REALLY irks me that this is continually and constantly referred to as a "tax" when it is no such thing.

Indeed. Compared to the suffering inflicted on that family of a disabled child I can see why such word games would be of more pressing concern.

TGOHF

Pulpstar said:

It is an excellent name - you pay TAX , they get a BEDROOM - which they couldn't otherwise afford.

Life_ina_market_town

tim said:

Douglas Carswell MP ‏@DouglasCarswell
Remind me, why is Theresa May, Home Secretary, transfering 30 powers over to Brussels? #BogusEuroScepticism

Doesn't that transfer of powers trigger a referendum?

An interesting question. The government claims not. As the decision to opt back in would be governed by Protocols 19 and 20 to TFEU rather than the main amending provisions (TFEU , article 48(6)) or new treaty, it would appear not. The European Union Act 2011 seems a little hollow. I wonder why?

Life_ina_market_town

In fact, looking at Protocols 19 and 20 to TFEU and section 6(5)(k) in particular, and sections 7 to 10 in general of the 2011 Act, it would appear that Her Majesty's Government does not even need Parliamentary approval to confer criminal jurisdiction on the CJEU and European Commission. Extraordinary if true.

Mick_Pork

The health minister, the tobacco lobby, and a major campaign to derail a cigarette ban

Leaked emails reveal how a Tory peer canvassed lobbyists for Marlboro maker Philip Morris – and became a willing partner in its bid to thwart legislation that would have banned its products from display in shops

http://m.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/31/health-minister-tobacco-lobby-display-ban


Guardian news ‏@guardiannews 16h

Tory strategist Lynton Crosby chaired tobacco meeting last year, says Labour http://gu.com/p/3habc/tf


Lynn Hamer ‏@evilbluebird 33s

How MPs took free tickets to Chelsea Flower Show and the opera worth £17,000 from tobacco firm http://dailym.ai/13Jn0Zf via @MailOnline


en goldacre ‏@bengoldacre

Woah, I didn't realise Linton Crosby only took on tobacco clients AFTER he became Cameron advisor. That's really bad. http://gu.com/p/3ha4c

Cammie will get to the bottom of it though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBvsGmnPq18

TGOHF

Oh gawd - return of the Bilderberg tobacco lizards ....

taffys

Those PB Tories who believed Cameron on the EAW are looking pretty dim aren't they?

Judging by the torrent of bile that follows most articles on Cam in the Mail and the Telly, I've come to the conclusion that UKIP want to destroy what's left of the conservative party before they even bother about taking on labour....

Mick_Pork

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Mick_Pork

tim said:

Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP 1m
Incredibly disappointing performance by the Home Secretary today. The European Arrest Warrant is incompatible with civil liberty.

Those PB Tories who believed Cameron on the EAW are looking pretty dim aren't they?

Another 'closet kipper' seems unimpressed.

Douglas Carswell MP ‏@DouglasCarswell 7m

Impression I get from this debate is that the Home Office seems to be run by securocrats. They want the EAW.

Cyclefree

tim said:

TGOHF said:

Pulpstar said:

It is an excellent name - you pay TAX , they get a BEDROOM - which they couldn't otherwise afford.

Of course it'd work out a lot cheaper in PB Tory world if these people selfishly using a spare bedroom to look after a disabled relative just gave up and let the state take the strain.
Just imagine the savings.

Is there any information on what happened when the same policy was enacted a few years ago for those renting in the private sector? Genuinely interested.

TGOHF

Mick_Pork said:

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Have you tried the David Icke website - or the Tap's blog ?

Mick_Pork

TGOHF said:

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Have you tried the David Icke website - or the Tap's blog ?




I somehow doubt Cameron bothers with your favourite swivel-eyed loon websites, why?

TGOHF

Mick_Pork said:

TGOHF said:

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Have you tried the David Icke website - or the Tap's blog ?

I somehow doubt Cameron bothers with your favourite swivel-eyed loon websites, why?


I misremember - is Cameron a lizard - or just controlled by the lizards ? And do the lizards smoke or just make mankind smoke ? Do tell - perhaps with a you tube link - everyone clicks on those - no they do really.

Mick_Pork

Yet more 'closet' kippers breaking cover.

T Portilho-Shrimpton ‏@Selkie 13m

John Redwood says objection to the EAW and other measures is that ECJ will be used as instrument to create criminal law in Brussels.

Mick_Pork

TGOHF said:

Mick_Pork said:

TGOHF said:

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Have you tried the David Icke website - or the Tap's blog ?

I somehow doubt Cameron bothers with your favourite swivel-eyed loon websites, why?

I misremember - is Cameron a lizard - or just controlled by the lizards ? And do the lizards smoke or just make mankind smoke ? Do tell - perhaps with a you tube link - everyone clicks on those - no they do really.

Bit early to be on the sauce so heavily isn't it 'arry?
Maybe you should clam down dear and take off the tinfoil hat.

OllyT

@ Partrick

Seriously, why would anybody bother to quote a Sun editorial as evidence of anything. It's bad enough when the PB Tories trot out Telegraph stuff as though it were the gospel truth - but the Sun, really?

Alanbrooke

tim said:

Cyclefree said:

tim said:

TGOHF said:

Pulpstar said:

It is an excellent name - you pay TAX , they get a BEDROOM - which they couldn't otherwise afford.

Of course it'd work out a lot cheaper in PB Tory world if these people selfishly using a spare bedroom to look after a disabled relative just gave up and let the state take the strain.
Just imagine the savings.

Is there any information on what happened when the same policy was enacted a few years ago for those renting in the private sector? Genuinely interested.

Councils have a legal duty to house people.
Anyone disabled who needed the extra space for a carer and couldn't afford the rent had the social housing sector as a fallback position.

This policy is deliberately targeted at disabled people (pensioners are exempt, no matter what their circumstances) who have nowhere else to go, who do not have the money and who are most likely to have had a building adapted for their needs.
And the smaller houses and flats simply don't exist to move them into.

Yeah but Labour have signed up to it so what are you bitching about ? Liam Byrne's now saying IDS is a wuss on benefits. If you want to complain start with Ed Miliband. The point of being in opposition is to oppose not just accept all the government's policies carte blanche.

Pointless Labour strikes again.

Mick_Pork

Retiring Violet ‏@RetiringViolet 39m

Every quip from Yvette Cooper saying she is "glad the Home Secretary has ignored the Eurosceptic voices" drives the knife in a bit deeper

Nonsense. Gullible tory eurosceptics believed Cammie over the flounce that wasn't and his Cast Iron IN/OUT referendum so why would they doubt him now?

TGOHF

Mick_Pork said:

TGOHF said:

Mick_Pork said:

TGOHF said:

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Have you tried the David Icke website - or the Tap's blog ?

I somehow doubt Cameron bothers with your favourite swivel-eyed loon websites, why?

I misremember - is Cameron a lizard - or just controlled by the lizards ? And do the lizards smoke or just make mankind smoke ? Do tell - perhaps with a you tube link - everyone clicks on those - no they do really.

Bit early to be on the sauce so heavily isn't it 'arry?
Maybe you should clam down dear and take off the tinfoil hat.



Have you forgotten in your frothing that you were the one bringing out the grassy knoll theories ?

I see Eck has rediscovered his love of golf - and leapt out of the gorse to molest big Phil Mickelson as soon as he'd won the McOpen (and collected his fat appearance fee - the only reason he was there ). Only surprise was he wasn't twirling a saltire over his head at the same time..

Pity Salmond is back to hypocrisy writ large at Muirfield this weekend..

taffys

Pointless Labour strikes again.

Shadow cabinet minister: The coalition's measures on this issue are totally wrong
Interviewer: Does this mean you'll reverse them if elected?
Shadow cabinet minister: Erm.............

Mick_Pork

TGOHF said:

Mick_Pork said:

TGOHF said:

Mick_Pork said:

TGOHF said:

Oh gawd - it's all a lizard Bilderdberg conpiracy is wot it is. Derp, derp.

David Cameron: We have a 'problem' with lobbyists

David Cameron has admitted that Parliament has “a problem” with lobbyists in the wake of the latest scandal to engulf the Commons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10100735/David-Cameron-We-have-a-problem-with-lobbyists.html

Have you tried the David Icke website - or the Tap's blog ?

I somehow doubt Cameron bothers with your favourite swivel-eyed loon websites, why?

I misremember - is Cameron a lizard - or just controlled by the lizards ? And do the lizards smoke or just make mankind smoke ? Do tell - perhaps with a you tube link - everyone clicks on those - no they do really.

Bit early to be on the sauce so heavily isn't it 'arry?
Maybe you should clam down dear and take off the tinfoil hat.

Have you forgotten in your frothing that you were the one bringing out the grassy knoll theories ?

No 'arry the only one who brought up lizards and grassy knolls is you. Either through hilariously transparent desperation or perhaps you really are seeing things. Maybe a period of sober abstention would be best for you as you seem to be getting quite shrill and hysterical.