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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The biggest cheer shadow chancellor McDonnell got was when he declared “…in conclusion”

Something's got to give here. It's getting silly. Democracy needs an Opposition. pic.twitter.com/R5VAJ8tF8m

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Jonathan

More MSM bias!

brokenwheel

On the positive side there isn't much further you can fall below 7%.

Sunil_Prasannan

I said Labour were "irrelevant" way back during the Referendum campaign!!

SouthamObserver

2018.

SquareRoot

.. and that's why Labour on 29% in the polls is utter tosh.

Jonathan

Weird poll. 36+7+26 doesn't equal 100. What's the gap? Lib Dems?

FF43

I find these small percentages fascinating. Who are the 7% who trust McDonnell on the economy? Have they even HEARD of of McDonnell or are they just ticking boxes at random to get the survey done?

dr_spyn

Sky have a clip of John McDonnell's speech, with a large number of Labour MPs looking at the news on their mobile phones - the screen reads Mair found guilty.

TheScreamingEagles

Jonathan said:

Weird poll. 36+7+26 doesn't equal 100. What's the gap? Lib Dems?

Don't know on 30%

rural_voter

JosiasJessop said:

rural_voter said:

MP_SE said:

bigjohnowls said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

Afternoon all. One thing that I have discovered today is that if you attended a hospital appointment while wearing a hi viz coat. Numerous people will confuse you as a member of staff from the moment you arrive.

If you're an Asian heritage chap in a suit and you attend a hospital appointments, numerous people will also confuse you as a Doctor.

True but more will think your a health tourist and ask for your passport, due to Tory dog whistle politics

My sister who has been referred to a specialist cancer hospital has been asked to provide two forms of identification. The only people who have anything to worry about are those who are not entitled to care in the first place. And liberal types who think the NHS is an international health service.

Of course they have cause for worry. They may have no driving licence and no up to date passport. The proposed measure risks costing more in admin. than it saves ... as Nye Bevan pointed out.

Perhaps the government wants us to focus on 'greedy' foreigners and ignore the political decision to starve the NHS of funds versus other developed countries (percent of GDP basis).

My MP won't say if the aim is to encourage the well off to take out private insurance, setting up a de facto two-tier system, only that 'the NHS will stay free at the point of use'. Well that's true of Medicaid, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid, but you wouldn't want to use it.

"The proposed measure risks costing more in admin. than it saves"

I've heard this before, but I'm not sure how it could be. Surly administrative systems aren't that borken?

[Sorry for slow reply; I tried on last thread but the system seemed to shut me out and lose my username and password, then I discovered a new thread had started, so I'm trying here ...]

If it employs similar calibre staff to council tax, that costs ~£25/house to collect but processing the exceptions and rebates to people not liable to pay appears to cost another ~£70/house in England/Wales
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2006/11/06105402/13
Pricing of health procedures is more complex than sticking a property into A-?G council tax bands.

Suing non-payers would incur more costs; some debts would be written off. So the admin. might well be comparable in cost to the amount due on simpler procedures. I don't know how many treatments are simple and how many are very complex. Some costs will also be incurred to deal with UK-resident patients registering with a new practice, who needn't prove much.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/kambiz-boomla/nhs-and-dog-whistle-politics

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, Hammond's in a close contest with an empty chair. McDonnell's far behind an unoccupied piece of furniture.

brokenwheel

FF43 said:

I find these small percentages fascinating. Who are the 7% who trust McDonnell on the economy? Have they even HEARD of of McDonnell or are they just ticking boxes at random to get the survey done?

They are the people who misread the question as "Who do you trust more to ruin the economy?".

SimonStClare

the only assertion from McDonnell that got any response was when he said “..inconclusion”

Harsh, but fair. – 7% trust in the economy must represent the lunatic fringe…!

MP_SE

https://twitter.com/transition2017/status/801489495338188800

Morris_Dancer

Mr. StClare, the lunatic fringe is the Labour Party leadership.

Subs without nukes. An aim to disband MI6. The desire to abolish the armed forces. Friends of Hamas.

Jonathan

Interesting that Hammond does not command the confidence of a decent chunk of Tory voters.

David_Evershed

brokenwheel said:

On the positive side there isn't much further you can fall below 7%.

7% in fact

Jonathan

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. StClare, the lunatic fringe is the Labour Party leadership.

Subs without nukes. An aim to disband MI6. The desire to abolish the armed forces. Friends of Hamas.

Tories like aircraft carriers and without aircraft.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Jonathan, who signed off on that deal?

[All parties have been poor on Defence for as long as I can remember].

SandyRentool

Jonathan said:

Interesting that Hammond does not command the confidence of a decent chunk of Tory voters.

Fans of the near-perfect former chancellor.

MikeL

Can anyone explain the following? Per BBC:

"The other big figure is £220bn - the amount by which total government debt is forecast to increase before the end of this Parliament in 2019/20. The total goes up from £1.73 trillion to £1.95 trillion.

The difference between the figures is due to the amount of money the Bank of England is borrowing to support the economy via its asset purchase facility (APF)."

The table is then headed "Net Debt"

I can see that the above affects Debt, but surely not Net Debt?

Does this mean that the QE up to now - ie £425bn - is in the £1.95 trillion figure? If so, £425bn of that is offset by assets.

This all means that if the Bank of England ever starts selling any of these assets then Debt is going to start falling rapidly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-38028907

Tim_B

It's the busiest travel day of the year in the US today.

To all US posters, Happy Thanksgiving, and if you're traveling, be safe.

SandyRentool

OK, I'm puzzled by this one:

If the borrowing forecast has increased by £122 bn, how come the forecast for total debt has increased by £210 bn?

Edit: Mr L got there first!

Sunil_Prasannan

Tim_B said:

It's the busiest travel day of the year in the US today.

To all US posters, Happy Thanksgiving, and if you're traveling, be safe.

Happy Thanksgiving!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDY1z6ezqO4

MikeL

SandyRentool said:

OK, I'm puzzled by this one:

If the borrowing forecast has increased by £122 bn, how come the forecast for total debt has increased by £210 bn?

See my post at 6.31pm and link within.

The difference is changes to the Asset Purchase Facility (ie QE).

theakes

Hmmm. Suppose Olney wins Richmond, say on a landslide, the side effects propel the Lib Dem vote at Sleaford into 2nd place with say 18 -20%. Will that make a difference to the scenario, will the opinion polls come into line with the way people have been actually voting?.
Probably a fantasy, yeah or no.

glw

Jonathan said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. StClare, the lunatic fringe is the Labour Party leadership.

Subs without nukes. An aim to disband MI6. The desire to abolish the armed forces. Friends of Hamas.

Tories like aircraft carriers and without aircraft.

It was the last Labour government that scrapped the Sea Harrier long before the replacement was ready. Now the Tories have dithered a bit about how to put the mess right before finally deciding to press ahead with the F-35B, but they didn't actually get us in that mess in the first place.

Pulpstar

MikeL said:

Can anyone explain the following? Per BBC:

"The other big figure is £220bn - the amount by which total government debt is forecast to increase before the end of this Parliament in 2019/20. The total goes up from £1.73 trillion to £1.95 trillion.

The difference between the figures is due to the amount of money the Bank of England is borrowing to support the economy via its asset purchase facility (APF)."

The table is then headed "Net Debt"

I can see that the above affects Debt, but surely not Net Debt?

Does this mean that the QE up to now - ie £425bn - is in the £1.95 trillion figure? If so, £425bn of that is offset by assets.

This all means that if the Bank of England ever starts selling any of these assets then Debt is going to start falling rapidly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-38028907

Yes but what are these "assets" ?

Jonathan

glw said:

Jonathan said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. StClare, the lunatic fringe is the Labour Party leadership.

Subs without nukes. An aim to disband MI6. The desire to abolish the armed forces. Friends of Hamas.

Tories like aircraft carriers and without aircraft.

It was the last Labour government that scrapped the Sea Harrier long before the replacement was ready. Now the Tories have dithered a bit about how to put the mess right before finally deciding to press ahead with the F-35B, but they didn't actually get us in that mess in the first place.

Nope screwing up the aircraft carriers was one of his earliest mistakes. He went on to bigger cock ups.

dr_spyn

Jonathan said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. StClare, the lunatic fringe is the Labour Party leadership.

Subs without nukes. An aim to disband MI6. The desire to abolish the armed forces. Friends of Hamas.

Tories like aircraft carriers and without aircraft.

Tories like RN destroyers without anti-ship missiles, until 2030.

MikeL

Pulpstar said:

MikeL said:

Can anyone explain the following? Per BBC:

"The other big figure is £220bn - the amount by which total government debt is forecast to increase before the end of this Parliament in 2019/20. The total goes up from £1.73 trillion to £1.95 trillion.

The difference between the figures is due to the amount of money the Bank of England is borrowing to support the economy via its asset purchase facility (APF)."

The table is then headed "Net Debt"

I can see that the above affects Debt, but surely not Net Debt?

Does this mean that the QE up to now - ie £425bn - is in the £1.95 trillion figure? If so, £425bn of that is offset by assets.

This all means that if the Bank of England ever starts selling any of these assets then Debt is going to start falling rapidly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-38028907

Yes but what are these "assets" ?

I think they are primarily Government stocks - though I'm sure someone here will know more.

I know it's all a bit bizarre but my understanding is that the Government sells them again before maturity so they then get redeemed again as normal on maturity.

But of course the Government then has to buy more stocks with later redemption dates to offset such sales.

But the big picture is that the Government is holding a total of £425bn of such stocks as of today (or as of a few months ago before the latest QE started).

rogerh

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

MikeL

Of course the other option is that the Government just cancels some of the bonds it holds.

That will also reduce the debt (whilst leaving the government's net position unchanged).

dr_spyn

POJMWAS.

https://twitter.com/DailyMirror/status/801497887100338177

MP_SE

theakes said:

Hmmm. Suppose Olney wins Richmond, say on a landslide, the side effects propel the Lib Dem vote at Sleaford into 2nd place with say 18 -20%. Will that make a difference to the scenario, will the opinion polls come into line with the way people have been actually voting?.
Probably a fantasy, yeah or no.

Let's be realistic, the Lib Dems won't be winning Richmond.

glw

Jonathan said:

Nope screwing up the aircraft carriers was one of his earliest mistakes. He went on to bigger cock ups.

The Sea Harriers were scrapped in 2006.

The issue with the carriers and the type of deck/catapult was that we would have to use an electromagnetic catapult (which the US Navy is working on) to go with the F-35C (which is the variant with the most problems). So even if we had changed plans it would have been very expensive, very risky, and no earlier into service.

Basically the last government was completely screwed by BAE, and left a hell of a mess behind. The carrier procurement is the best example of how bad MOD procurement was in the past.

Jonathan

glw said:

Jonathan said:

Nope screwing up the aircraft carriers was one of his earliest mistakes. He went on to bigger cock ups.

The Sea Harriers were scrapped in 2006.

The issue with the carriers and the type of deck/catapult was that we would have to use an electromagnetic catapult (which the US Navy is working on) to go with the F-35C (which is the variant with the most problems). So even if we had changed plans it would have been very expensive, very risky, and no earlier into service.

Basically the last government was completely screwed by BAE, and left a hell of a mess behind. The carrier procurement is the best example of how bad MOD procurement was in the past.

Cameron is culpable. He thought he knew better when he didn't. Not the last time that was to happen..

SouthamObserver

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

The unions will pull the plug in 2018 after the Unite leadership election.

AndyJS

Latest Swedish opinion poll:

SD 25.0%
S 20.8%
M 20.5%
V 9.1%
C 8.1%
L 4.8%
KD 3.4%
Fi 3.4%
MP 3.0%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2018

AndyJS

dr_spyn said:

POJMWAS.

https://twitter.com/DailyMirror/status/801497887100338177

At least they're fully in touch with most of the population in terms of being addicted to their phones.

glw

Jonathan said:

Cameron is culpable. He thought he knew better when he didn't. Not the last time that was to happen..

That's only partly true, the previously claimed cost of conversion doubled, and the timeline was as bad or worse than proceeding with what we are doing now. But it doesn't change the facts that we are where we are because the initial procurement, under the last government, was extremely shortsighted and ill prepared for problems.

I remember Labour hammering the Tories for the Nimrod AEW cancellation, but the carriers project is Nimrod times ten or more.

Labour are great at spending money, but they haven't a bloody clue about planning, reducing risk, or getting value for money.

dr_spyn

@AndyJS +1.

rcs1000

AndyJS said:

Latest Swedish opinion poll:

SD 25.0%
S 20.8%
M 20.5%
V 9.1%
C 8.1%
L 4.8%
KD 3.4%
Fi 3.4%
MP 3.0%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2018

There's a wonderfully wide spread of support for the Swedish Democrats: are they on 15% or 25%?

Charles

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Latest Swedish opinion poll:

SD 25.0%
S 20.8%
M 20.5%
V 9.1%
C 8.1%
L 4.8%
KD 3.4%
Fi 3.4%
MP 3.0%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2018

There's a wonderfully wide spread of support for the Swedish Democrats: are they on 15% or 25%?

Pah! Only 1 digit different!

kle4

dr_spyn said:

POJMWAS.

htps://twitter.com/DailyMirror/status/801497887100338177

Presumably he sent round a copy of his speech to the party just before he delivered it, maybe they were reading along?

dr_spyn

I see that BBC Question time has one of John McDonnell's economic advisers trying to help hm out tomorrow night.

"David Dimbleby presents topical debate from London.

On the panel are Conservative chief secretary to the Treasury David Gauke MP, Labour's shadow home secretary Diane Abbott MP, leader of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron MP, businessman and chief executive of the Timpson chain of shoe repair shops John Timpson, and professor of economics at the University of Sussex Mariana Mazzucato."

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/129975218774/labour-announces-new-economic-advisory-committee

dr_spyn

kle4 said:

dr_spyn said:

POJMWAS.

htps://twitter.com/DailyMirror/status/801497887100338177

Presumably he sent round a copy of his speech to the party just before he delivered it, maybe they were reading along?

Fact checking or making sure he stuck to the script.

brokenwheel

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Latest Swedish opinion poll:

SD 25.0%
S 20.8%
M 20.5%
V 9.1%
C 8.1%
L 4.8%
KD 3.4%
Fi 3.4%
MP 3.0%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2018

There's a wonderfully wide spread of support for the Swedish Democrats: are they on 15% or 25%?

Sifo is the only pollster consistently giving them the lows of ~15%, with the Social Dems a corresponding high score. On the other hand It's only Yougov and Sentio that is giving them the highs of ~25%.

Who to believe?

kle4

SquareRoot said:

.. and that's why Labour on 29% in the polls is utter tosh.

That's why it should be tosh. We shall see.

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

Never say never, but I don't see that as compelling personally. There will always be excuses for poor performance in locals. Last time around they performed better than expected, and they did a very good of preparing everyone for a horror show and the result in Scotland. Time is also surely against better candidates of a non-Corbynite bent - the Corbynites are in control now, they are in the ascendancy now; they might crash and burn, or split, but for now they are able to spread and expand, influence the later contests if they occur.

Maybe a loyal Corbynite with a better public image may appear pre GE.

Paristonda

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

It would be incredible if Blair actually came back as leader of the labour party. Assuming he somehow managed it, I wonder if he could actually beat the tories under May or not?

SimonStClare

kle4 said:

dr_spyn said:

POJMWAS.

htps://twitter.com/DailyMirror/status/801497887100338177

Presumably he sent round a copy of his speech to the party just before he delivered it, maybe they were reading along?

It was a very dull speech, more likely playing CandyCrush...

MikeK

So, because the heated forecasts of disaster by Remainers if the voters voted for Brexit never came about, the surviving Remaining Chancellor is about to bring a recession on Britain to prove that those forecasts were right all along. So there; put that in your pipe and smoke it!

This Tory Government will never have the skill or desire to make Brexit work. Their heart is not in it; T. May is getting squashed by her own inactivity and inability to show national leadership. I believe that she will voluntarily resign, pleading exhaustion, by next summer.

Britain needs a new political party, with doers desperately, if Britain is to survive as a sovereign nation beyond 2030. A great pity that UKIP is not up to the job.

Paristonda

kle4 said:

SquareRoot said:

.. and that's why Labour on 29% in the polls is utter tosh.

That's why it should be tosh. We shall see.

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

Never say never, but I don't see that as compelling personally. There will always be excuses for poor performance in locals. Last time around they performed better than expected, and they did a very good of preparing everyone for a horror show and the result in Scotland. Time is also surely against better candidates of a non-Corbynite bent - the Corbynites are in control now, they are in the ascendancy now; they might crash and burn, or split, but for now they are able to spread and expand, influence the later contests if they occur.

Maybe a loyal Corbynite with a better public image may appear pre GE.

Are there any? I would have said Clive Lewis but he seems to have been excommunicated from Corbyn's Inner Circle after his Trident speech...

foxinsoxuk

@josiasjessop and @ruralvoter

NHS charging for emergencies is problematic, but charging for elective outpatients is not a problem. We have a well worked system where our receptionists confirm personal details on arrival, a d our overseas patient officer assesses eligibility. The problem is actually getting paid as many do not pay. Occasionally I treat such patients probono on my own time, though they still need to pay for investigations. Does the money pay for the admin? probably not in the short term, but this is about altering behaviour.

I suspect that if we toughened up and applied the rules strictly thecworst affected would be British Expats.

kle4

Paristonda said:

kle4 said:

SquareRoot said:

.. and that's why Labour on 29% in the polls is utter tosh.

That's why it should be tosh. We shall see.

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

Never say never, but I don't see that as compelling personally. There will always be excuses for poor performance in locals. Last time around they performed better than expected, and they did a very good of preparing everyone for a horror show and the result in Scotland. Time is also surely against better candidates of a non-Corbynite bent - the Corbynites are in control now, they are in the ascendancy now; they might crash and burn, or split, but for now they are able to spread and expand, influence the later contests if they occur.

Maybe a loyal Corbynite with a better public image may appear pre GE.

Are there any? I would have said Clive Lewis but he seems to have been excommunicated from Corbyn's Inner Circle after his Trident speech...

Well, none are readily apparent right now, but I think I'm optimistic that MPs are better, in general, than many appear. They cannot all be Diane Abbots.

MarkSenior

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

2017 local elections will be poor for Labour in Scotland and Wales but they are defending relatively few seats in the English counties . The 2018 local elections are mainly in London where Labour are doing relatively better so again a massive loss of councillors is again unlikely .

chestnut

foxinsoxuk said:

I suspect that if we toughened up and applied the rules strictly thecworst affected would be British Expats.

That depends on how the rules are defined.

I know that a straightforward nationality rule was verboten on social security because of our EU membership, and we ended up with the ludicrous Habitual Residence Test. Does that apply in the health service?

Returning expats were indeed barred from the welfare system in the same way as new arrivals with this test.

Post Brexit, it must be a rule that becomes an obvious candidate for abolition.

kle4

MikeK said:

So, because the heated forecasts of disaster by Remainers if the voters voted for Brexit never came about, the surviving Remaining Chancellor is about to bring a recession on Britain to prove that those forecasts were right all along. So there; put that in your pipe and smoke it!

I find it hard to believe someone would be so committed to justifying their previous position they would deliberately sabotage themselves and the country now to avoid embarrassment. Politicians will u-turn and weather embarrassment perfectly well rather than face a difficult choice, or face difficult consequences. You may think Hammond is wrong about what he intends to do, and you may be right, but it would be irrational to think he is doing it because for any other reason than he thinks it is the best option available (though it is possible he still believes Brexit was a mistake, but recognises politically the die is cast and he has to make the best of it). Why would he invite trouble on himself if he didn't think it the best approach for the country?

kle4

MarkSenior said:

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

2017 local elections will be poor for Labour in Scotland and Wales but they are defending relatively few seats in the English counties .

Four whole seats in Wiltshire to defend (up from 2 in the previous cycle), one of which has a majority of 1 vote!

not_on_fire

chestnut said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I suspect that if we toughened up and applied the rules strictly thecworst affected would be British Expats.

That depends on how the rules are defined.

I know that a straightforward nationality rule was verboten on social security because of our EU membership, and we ended up with the ludicrous Habitual Residence Test. Does that apply in the health service?

Returning expats were indeed barred from the welfare system in the same way as new arrivals with this test.

Post Brexit, it must be a rule that becomes an obvious candidate for abolition.

Why should expats who may not have paid any UK tax in decades be able to use the NHS and welfare system from day 1?

chestnut

not_on_fire said:

chestnut said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I suspect that if we toughened up and applied the rules strictly thecworst affected would be British Expats.

That depends on how the rules are defined.

I know that a straightforward nationality rule was verboten on social security because of our EU membership, and we ended up with the ludicrous Habitual Residence Test. Does that apply in the health service?

Returning expats were indeed barred from the welfare system in the same way as new arrivals with this test.

Post Brexit, it must be a rule that becomes an obvious candidate for abolition.

Why should expats who may not have paid any UK tax in decades be able to use the NHS and welfare system from day 1?

Maybe they shouldn't.

However, if they have worked for 45 years and paid in and then become ill a year later should they be barred?

It's something worthy of discussion. Perhaps they should make an annual payment from abroad if they wish to come back and access the system?

Perhaps we should have an NHS 'Licence' fee? Is it more justifiable than a TV one?

A combination of birthright and contribution should underpin our social welfare systems.

PAW

I am not sure that OAPs pay NI anyway, so people retiring abroad won't have skipped any payments.

felix

not_on_fire said:

chestnut said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I suspect that if we toughened up and applied the rules strictly thecworst affected would be British Expats.

That depends on how the rules are defined.

I know that a straightforward nationality rule was verboten on social security because of our EU membership, and we ended up with the ludicrous Habitual Residence Test. Does that apply in the health service?

Returning expats were indeed barred from the welfare system in the same way as new arrivals with this test.

Post Brexit, it must be a rule that becomes an obvious candidate for abolition.

Why should expats who may not have paid any UK tax in decades be able to use the NHS and welfare system from day 1?

Errr ... this expat has lived abroad for 9 years and has paid tax on his main income to the UK government for every one of those years - I lost entitlement to the UK system from day 1 and have covered myself in Spain with private insurance ever since. Maybe you should stop making assumptions about those whom you know nothing about.

foxinsoxuk

chestnut said:

not_on_fire said:

chestnut said:

foxinsoxuk said:

I suspect that if we toughened up and applied the rules strictly thecworst affected would be British Expats.

That depends on how the rules are defined.

I know that a straightforward nationality rule was verboten on social security because of our EU membership, and we ended up with the ludicrous Habitual Residence Test. Does that apply in the health service?

Returning expats were indeed barred from the welfare system in the same way as new arrivals with this test.

Post Brexit, it must be a rule that becomes an obvious candidate for abolition.

Why should expats who may not have paid any UK tax in decades be able to use the NHS and welfare system from day 1?

Maybe they shouldn't.

However, if they have worked for 45 years and paid in and then become ill a year later should they be barred?

It's something worthy of discussion. Perhaps they should make an annual payment from abroad if they wish to come back and access the system?

Perhaps we should have an NHS 'Licence' fee? Is it more justifiable than a TV one?

A combination of birthright and contribution should underpin our social welfare systems.

Such a person would be very likely to be eligible under the habitual residance test, but there are 10 million British citizens living abroad. Many have not paid UK tax for decades (for examle emigrating to South Africa in the 1970's), or indeed having married a UK National living abroad.

Of course if we simply had a contribution based welfare state like so many other countries, thrn this would be much simpler, and quite likely have satisfied a good part of Leavers grievances.

Pulpstar

rcs1000 said:

AndyJS said:

Latest Swedish opinion poll:

SD 25.0%
S 20.8%
M 20.5%
V 9.1%
C 8.1%
L 4.8%
KD 3.4%
Fi 3.4%
MP 3.0%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2018

There's a wonderfully wide spread of support for the Swedish Democrats: are they on 15% or 25%?

Judging by recent elections, its either 5% or 35%.

MarkSenior

kle4 said:

MarkSenior said:

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

2017 local elections will be poor for Labour in Scotland and Wales but they are defending relatively few seats in the English counties .

Four whole seats in Wiltshire to defend (up from 2 in the previous cycle), one of which has a majority of 1 vote!

3 safe and 1 marginal as you say , does not justify saying massive loss .

williamglenn

SimonStClare said:

kle4 said:

dr_spyn said:

POJMWAS.

htps://twitter.com/DailyMirror/status/801497887100338177

Presumably he sent round a copy of his speech to the party just before he delivered it, maybe they were reading along?

It was a very dull speech, more likely playing CandyCrush...

Or playing Pokemon go? They wanted to catch a rare one standing at the despatch box.

rogerh

Slight narrowing of the odds from Ladbrokes for Richmond Park by election.
Zac moves from 3/10 to 1/3,Lib Dems from 5/2 to 9/4

bigjohnowls

kle4 said:

SquareRoot said:

.. and that's why Labour on 29% in the polls is utter tosh.

That's why it should be tosh. We shall see.

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

Never say never, but I don't see that as compelling personally. There will always be excuses for poor performance in locals. Last time around they performed better than expected, and they did a very good of preparing everyone for a horror show and the result in Scotland. Time is also surely against better candidates of a non-Corbynite bent - the Corbynites are in control now, they are in the ascendancy now; they might crash and burn, or split, but for now they are able to spread and expand, influence the later contests if they occur.

Maybe a loyal Corbynite with a better public image may appear pre GE.

I still think Clive Lewis myself

rogerh

MarkSenior said:

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

2017 local elections will be poor for Labour in Scotland and Wales but they are defending relatively few seats in the English counties . The 2018 local elections are mainly in London where Labour are doing relatively better so again a massive loss of councillors is again unlikely .

Thanks for the 2017 correction Mark.However as well as London in 2018 there are 1/3 up for 34 Met boroughs,17 unitary and 65 district so Labour losses could still be large

Pulpstar

Paristonda said:

kle4 said:

SquareRoot said:

.. and that's why Labour on 29% in the polls is utter tosh.

That's why it should be tosh. We shall see.

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

Never say never, but I don't see that as compelling personally. There will always be excuses for poor performance in locals. Last time around they performed better than expected, and they did a very good of preparing everyone for a horror show and the result in Scotland. Time is also surely against better candidates of a non-Corbynite bent - the Corbynites are in control now, they are in the ascendancy now; they might crash and burn, or split, but for now they are able to spread and expand, influence the later contests if they occur.

Maybe a loyal Corbynite with a better public image may appear pre GE.

Are there any? I would have said Clive Lewis but he seems to have been excommunicated from Corbyn's Inner Circle after his Trident speech...

Lewis has the support of the "bridges" between the hardcore Corbynites and the PLP, Thornberry (yes I know) is a pretty big beast that will support him I think for one.
I think Lewis will have the support of the membership too.

MarkSenior

rogerh said:

MarkSenior said:

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

2017 local elections will be poor for Labour in Scotland and Wales but they are defending relatively few seats in the English counties . The 2018 local elections are mainly in London where Labour are doing relatively better so again a massive loss of councillors is again unlikely .

Thanks for the 2017 correction Mark.However as well as London in 2018 there are 1/3 up for 34 Met boroughs,17 unitary and 65 district so Labour losses could still be large

Outside London the biggest losers in 2018 will be UKIP , Labour may even end up gaining a few seats in the Mets .

Monksfield

Well, one of the few things that made me shed tears this year was the murder of Jo Cox, so I'm ecstatic that the nazi scumbag that killed her has been locked up for life. Good riddance. Hopefully the security services will focus a bit more attention on these morons.

As for Labour, in view of their problems up front could they put in a big money bid for Caroline Lucas?

MikeL

"Hillary Clinton urged to call for election vote recount in battleground states"

"Alleged irregularities in key states of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin prompt demands for audit amid concerns over ‘foreign hackers’"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/23/hillary-clinton-election-vote-recount-michigan-pennsylvania-wisconsin

Saltire

MikeL said:

"Hillary Clinton urged to call for election vote recount in battleground states"

"Alleged irregularities in key states of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin prompt demands for audit amid concerns over ‘foreign hackers’"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/23/hillary-clinton-election-vote-recount-michigan-pennsylvania-wisconsin

Mike this was the subject of the thread this morning. The general consensus is that this is pretty weak and is going nowhere.

Speedy

MikeL said:

"Hillary Clinton urged to call for election vote recount in battleground states"

"Alleged irregularities in key states of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin prompt demands for audit amid concerns over ‘foreign hackers’"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/23/hillary-clinton-election-vote-recount-michigan-pennsylvania-wisconsin

We covered that before.

Downtown Milwaukee uses paper ballots, the rest uses electronic voting, so Trump doing better in rural non-Milwaukee areas is a foregone conclusion regardless of the voting method.

And there are no irregularities in Pennsylvania or Michigan.

File it under Fake News.

Speedy

On an unrelated note, Trump has committed himself into destroying the education system of the USA by picking Betsy DeVos as education secretary:

https://twitter.com/_jeffguo/status/801494891306090497
https://twitter.com/_jeffguo/status/801496729430458374

Basically DeVos wants to make America into Detroit, not a good idea.

kle4

MarkSenior said:

kle4 said:

MarkSenior said:

rogerh said:

I would challenge Mike's assertion that there is not likely to be a new Labour leadership this side of the next GE.
Why?.Because there are three rounds of local elections before the GE Contests will take place in 2017& 2018 will be against high points for Labour in 2013 and 2014 where Labour opinion poll ratings were in the high thirties.We will therefore see a massive loss of council seats and councils.This will be sufficient to produce leadership contests with stronger candidates(who knows Mr Blair ) with the ammunition of dire local election results.

2017 local elections will be poor for Labour in Scotland and Wales but they are defending relatively few seats in the English counties .

Four whole seats in Wiltshire to defend (up from 2 in the previous cycle), one of which has a majority of 1 vote!

3 safe and 1 marginal as you say , does not justify saying massive loss .

I wasn't the one saying it (in fact I was backing up your point - try to take things less seriously), but if you go by percentages it would be massive at least (also if they only had 2 in 2009, I don't know that 3 can be assured of being safe)

FluffyThoughts

dr_spyn said:

0Tories like RN destroyers without anti-ship missiles, until 2030.

Harpoon was piggy-backed from T22 to T45. Harpoon no longer meets requirements. And your point is caller...?

MP_SE

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

TheScreamingEagles

It dawned on me, if Corbyn stood down before a general election, Diane Abbott might be Corbyn's replacement.

TheScreamingEagles

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

TheScreamingEagles

Twenty three days too late for Halloween

https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/801523084008325120

MP_SE

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

No, those are where the grain is stored. There would be no room for homeless people.

chestnut

Monksfield said:

Well, one of the few things that made me shed tears this year was the murder of Jo Cox, so I'm ecstatic that the nazi scumbag that killed her has been locked up for life. Good riddance. Hopefully the security services will focus a bit more attention on these morons.

As for Labour, in view of their problems up front could they put in a big money bid for Caroline Lucas?

Labour could do with someone who can speak a foreign language - working class.

The working class really don't give a toss about climate change, carbon footprints, transgender issues, fox hunting and the troubles in Palestine.

foxinsoxuk

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

TheScreamingEagles

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Monksfield

chestnut said:

Monksfield said:

Well, one of the few things that made me shed tears this year was the murder of Jo Cox, so I'm ecstatic that the nazi scumbag that killed her has been locked up for life. Good riddance. Hopefully the security services will focus a bit more attention on these morons.

As for Labour, in view of their problems up front could they put in a big money bid for Caroline Lucas?

Labour could do with someone who can speak a foreign language - working class.

The working class really don't give a toss about climate change, carbon footprints, transgender issues and the troubles in Palestine.

What they will give a toss about, however is when the clusterfuck that is Brexit leaves them thousands of pounds worse off. Of course they'll forget they voted for it st that point and blame the eejits who lied to them. Ho ho ho.

FrancisUrquhart

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

It is really hard to believe he was a proper brain surgeon!

foxinsoxuk

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

foxinsoxuk

Monksfield said:

chestnut said:

Monksfield said:

Well, one of the few things that made me shed tears this year was the murder of Jo Cox, so I'm ecstatic that the nazi scumbag that killed her has been locked up for life. Good riddance. Hopefully the security services will focus a bit more attention on these morons.

As for Labour, in view of their problems up front could they put in a big money bid for Caroline Lucas?

Labour could do with someone who can speak a foreign language - working class.

The working class really don't give a toss about climate change, carbon footprints, transgender issues and the troubles in Palestine.

What they will give a toss about, however is when the clusterfuck that is Brexit leaves them thousands of pounds worse off. Of course they'll forget they voted for it st that point and blame the eejits who lied to them. Ho ho ho.

No, Brexit will still be the fault of metropolitan hipsters. Somehow.

Pulpstar

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

This is why when push came to shove I'd have voted Clinton in the election !

TheScreamingEagles

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

For comedy value, I used to follow some creationists, nothing will ever top this

Monksfield

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

For comedy value, I used to follow some creationists, nothing will ever top this

I nearly spat wine over my ipad there

FrancisUrquhart

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

For comedy value, I used to follow some creationists, nothing will ever top this

Dave Gorman does a great bit about them in his Google whack show.

edmundintokyo

Jill Stein requesting recounts in the places with the alleged voting machine anomalies. Nice solution that keeps Hillary from looking like a bad loser while helping Stein fundraise.

TheScreamingEagles

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

For comedy value, I used to follow some creationists, nothing will ever top this

Dave German does a great bit about them in his Google whack show.

Yup, I saw his googlewhack tour years ago.

MarqueeMark

Monksfield said:

chestnut said:

Monksfield said:

Well, one of the few things that made me shed tears this year was the murder of Jo Cox, so I'm ecstatic that the nazi scumbag that killed her has been locked up for life. Good riddance. Hopefully the security services will focus a bit more attention on these morons.

As for Labour, in view of their problems up front could they put in a big money bid for Caroline Lucas?

Labour could do with someone who can speak a foreign language - working class.

The working class really don't give a toss about climate change, carbon footprints, transgender issues and the troubles in Palestine.

What they will give a toss about, however is when the clusterfuck that is Brexit leaves them thousands of pounds worse off. Of course they'll forget they voted for it st that point and blame the eejits who lied to them. Ho ho ho.

But even if we accept your premise that Brexit will be a fuck up, they won't be worse off, in terms of seeing less money in their pocket. The just won't have as much as some smart arse Remainers will tell them they could have had. And those Remainers will have as much of a hearing from the working class as they had in the summer of 2016.....

Pulpstar

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

For comedy value, I used to follow some creationists, nothing will ever top this

All Abrahamic extremists seem to be raging homophobes !

TheScreamingEagles

Monksfield said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MP_SE said:

Ben Carson has accepted HUD secretary role. I am sure he will quickly be smeared with allegations of being a white nationalist anti-Semite...

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/801532341718044674

Oh God, he's going to start putting America's homeless in pyramids isn't he?

Nah. They are full of grain from the seven good harvests.

Holy feck sticks, Ben Carson is an evolution denier, and thinks Charles Darwin came up with evolution thanks to Satan.

That's the same moronic thinking that creationists come up with to deny gravity by saying flowers grow upwards.

Ceationism is fascinating.

It is best seen as the prototype conspiracy theory, about which any facts can be twisted or ignored. It is why it is so common amongst alt.right types. Believe that bunkum and you are a sucker for the remainder of their post truth politics.

For comedy value, I used to follow some creationists, nothing will ever top this

I nearly spat wine over my ipad there

Sorry