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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Defection watch. Betting on Jacob Rees-Mogg to defect to UKIP

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Defection watch. Betting on Jacob Rees-Mogg to defect to UKIP

Paddy Power have a market up whether some politicians will defect by 2018. On initial glance this looks like a market designed to solely enrich Paddy Power, I did think of backing Douglas Carswell doing a Churchill and defecting back, but given the precedent he has set, he won’t wish to inflict another by election on the voters of Clacton, so that’s that bet ruled out.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    edited December 2016
    First like Farron and Fillon
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    edited December 2016
    Carswell looks like the good bet from that list

    But none of the odds are great; defections aren't nearly as common as they used to be.

    And I cannot see JRM fitting in very well with UKIP's emerging core demographic.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Would the Tories want Zac back?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2016
    Find it hard to believe Rees-Mogg would ever defect from the Conservatives. I, for one, hope he has his eye on the Speaker's chair after Bercow retires.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Would the Tories want Zac back?

    Why in God's name would they do that?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    RobD said:

    Find it hard to believe Rees-Mogg would ever defect from the Conservatives. I, for one, hope he has his eye on the Speaker's chair after Bercow retires.

    He may have too much ambition for that... But he would definitely be entertaining in that position... Probably also a tourist draw for parliament!
  • Hasn't the government just thrown a few million quid at an historic Rees-Mogg property - or one owned by his wife's family - for restoration? That's quite a bung to stay onside.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Hasn't the government just thrown a few million quid at an historic Rees-Mogg property - or one owned by his wife's family - for restoration? That's quite a bung to stay onside.

    News to me. Do you have a link to a story on it?
  • Why would JRM or anyone defect to UKIP given the likelihood of election defeat and/or being shafted by Nigel ?
  • It comes as no surprise to me that Jacob Rees-Mogg is soft-boiled.

    He's not exactly the image that the new UKIP leader is trying to project.
  • RobD said:

    Hasn't the government just thrown a few million quid at an historic Rees-Mogg property - or one owned by his wife's family - for restoration? That's quite a bung to stay onside.

    News to me. Do you have a link to a story on it?

    https://www.google.com.vn/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d5efd3a0-b32f-11e6-a37c-f4a01f1b0fa1
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2016

    RobD said:

    Hasn't the government just thrown a few million quid at an historic Rees-Mogg property - or one owned by his wife's family - for restoration? That's quite a bung to stay onside.

    News to me. Do you have a link to a story on it?

    https://www.google.com.vn/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d5efd3a0-b32f-11e6-a37c-f4a01f1b0fa1
    Paywall, but the headline speaks for itself!

    Ah, thanks to google I can read it. Do the Rees-Moggs still live there?
  • Morning all.

    Some pretty daft defection bets from Paddy imho, although Carswell to Tory is a possibility.
    Rees-Mogg to UKIP seems unlikely but, as post A50 negotiations unfurl only time will tell.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    "Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel?". How could a journalist who had the wisdom to lead the charge against Mick Jagger's prison sentence on a minor drugs charge have produced such an oaf as Jacob?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Brexit strategy is all about saving the Tories and little to do with doing what's best for our future. Like the Corn Laws famine is seemingly a small price to pay as party is put before country.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine
  • On the Brexit thing I'd be sceptical of any claim that the government has strategy X. We get a different story every couple of weeks. They clearly have absolutely no idea WTF to do and right now they're just throwing various different helmets up in the air and seeing how many bullet holes they have when they land.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Speaking of Guardian readers this Christmas

    Prick with a Fork
    These people must be so much fun at parties. https://t.co/ai5hzwCTT1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    IanB2 said:

    Carswell looks like the good bet from that list

    But none of the odds are great; defections aren't nearly as common as they used to be.

    And I cannot see JRM fitting in very well with UKIP's emerging core demographic.

    A more likely possibility is that Carswell does an exact Churchill - resigns the whip and sits as an independent for a bit. Who could forget his famous campaign as an 'Anti-Socialist Constitutionalist' in 1922? Yet two years later he was Chancellor of the Exchequer under Baldwin.

    Would the bet still be valid in that case? Or does it have to be a formal defection between parties?
  • Stephen Kinnock to UKIP, surely not, On the other hand Zac Goldsmith to the Conservatives at evens looks good, but I expect the small print would make it difficult to claim.
  • Stephen Kinnock to UKIP, surely not, On the other hand Zac Goldsmith to the Conservatives at evens looks good, but I expect the small print would make it difficult to claim.

    The small print might stipulate being an MP, IIRC, Zac Goldsmith isn’t one.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    If there was any possibility whatsoever of Rees Mogg defecting to UKIP surely he would have done so already? Looking at the wider base of the conservative party which is now pro brexit it is much more likely to me that someone on the liberal side of the party would defect.
    100/1 would be good odds but not 12/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited December 2016
    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Rees-Mogg needs to drop his gritty man of the people act.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited December 2016
    ydoethur said:



    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.

    Agreed.

    Another superb article on Brexit is the one in The Guardian by Stephen Hawking.

    http://tinyurl.com/gpeggry

    "I’m sad about the result, but if I’ve learned one lesson in my life it is to make the best of the hand you are dealt. Now we must learn to live outside the EU, but in order to manage that successfully we need to understand why British people made the choice that they did. I believe that wealth, the way we understand it and the way we share it, played a crucial role in their decision. "

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    PlatoSaid said:

    Speaking of Guardian readers this Christmas

    Prick with a Fork
    These people must be so much fun at parties. https://t.co/ai5hzwCTT1

    Not half as much fun as the Macedonian teenagers you've been linking to for the last several months. Must have been excruciatingly embarrassing when you found out.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/how-macedonia-became-a-global-hub-for-pro-trump-misinfo?utm_term=.rs5BR2A2B#.wyYwY767w
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Stephen Kinnock to UKIP? Have I missed something?
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism.

    The SWP's time has come at last.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    A remarkably unpleasant post.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited December 2016
    Good morning, everyone.

    Staying in the customs union, as suggested, would be flaccid, not merely soft. It seems Mr. Eagles' forecast of a departure in name only may come true.

    Well, it'd certainly make my decision of who to vote for at the next election an interesting one.

    Edited extra bit: there's a trailer for The Last of Us - Part 2 up on Youtube for those interested.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited December 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I think its the same with Trump in the States See https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/11/29/another-clinton-trump-divide-high-output-america-vs-low-output-america/ . Less than 500 counties representing 64% of total economic output
    voted for Clinton, over 2600 counties producing just 36% of output voted Trump.

    It seems that those doing well out of the status quo vote for the status quo, the rest are currently protesting for change.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Speaking of the state recounts Trump has lawsuits in in WI and MI to prevent them from happening MI one is heard on Monday.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Essexit said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    A remarkably unpleasant post.
    A pity you couldn't answer it with the wit and the intelligence of ydoethur then.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited December 2016


    Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism.

    The SWP's time has come at last.

    No, because that wouldn't be fair sharing (google 'Leonid Brezhnev dacha' if you don't believe me). What we do need to ensure however is that serious market problems - for example the payment of wages in this country that are below subsistence level in Britain but lead to an excellent lifestyle in Poland - are not allowed to happen, fuelling resentment and unemployment. The minimum wage was a rather clumsy attempt to do this, but for various reasons it hasn't worked. Restrictions on migration are in other ways problematic but may be part of a solution. That is why 52% of the people were at least willing to try them.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Essexit said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    A remarkably unpleasant post.
    Yes, us Deplorables are remarkably lazy, aways in our cups and stupid to boot.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The Remainers are the Deplorables now.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Roger said:

    Essexit said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    A remarkably unpleasant post.
    A pity you couldn't answer it with the wit and the intelligence of ydoethur then.
    What is there to say? Your maths is ludicrous for a start, and the sentiment is nasty.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I am not too bothered about healing the divisions in our society. That is doomed to fail as another bit of futile social engineering.

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited December 2016

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:


    Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism.

    The SWP's time has come at last.

    No, because that wouldn't be fair sharing (google 'Leonid Brezhnev dacha' if you don't believe me). What we do need to ensure however is that serious market problems - for example the payment of wages in this country that are below subsistence level in Britain but lead to an excellent lifestyle in Poland - are not allowed to happen, fuelling resentment and unemployment. The minimum wage was a rather clumsy attempt to do this, but for various reasons it hasn't worked. Restrictions on migration are in other ways problematic but may be part of a solution. That is why 52% of the people were at least willing to try them.
    Oh I see. Go for hard Brexit, get rid of the Romanians and the UK will cease to be the sixth most unequal country in the OECD?

    Worth a try I guess. What could possibly go wrong?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    Amongst me and my friends and associates, that's wrong. Amongst probably a few dozen people I've discussed it with (yes, small biased sample size) there is no obvious correlation in the way they voted in either income or intelligence. A couple of foreign-born friends voted leave (and surprised me in doing so), and so did some friends who work for companies based in the EU.

    One of the reason remain lost might be that people's rationale for voting either way was much more complex than they thought.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Staying in the customs union, as suggested, would be flaccid, not merely soft. It seems Mr. Eagles' forecast of a departure in name only may come true.

    Well, it'd certainly make my decision of who to vote for at the next election an interesting one.

    Edited extra bit: there's a trailer for The Last of Us - Part 2 up on Youtube for those interested.

    You really do hate your country and fellow countrymen not only do you want to make the country poorer you also want Jeremy Corbyn as PM.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

  • Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    Amongst me and my friends and associates, that's wrong. Amongst probably a few dozen people I've discussed it with (yes, small biased sample size) there is no obvious correlation in the way they voted in either income or intelligence. A couple of foreign-born friends voted leave (and surprised me in doing so), and so did some friends who work for companies based in the EU.

    One of the reason remain lost might be that people's rationale for voting either way was much more complex than they thought.
    There is simply no cross section of wealth, income, intelligence, or anything which voed as much as 90/10 in favour of Remain.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I am not too bothered about healing the divisions in our society. That is doomed to fail as another bit of futile social engineering.

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?
    Why would you not want to help out those less fortunate than yourself?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:

    Hasn't the government just thrown a few million quid at an historic Rees-Mogg property - or one owned by his wife's family - for restoration? That's quite a bung to stay onside.

    News to me. Do you have a link to a story on it?

    https://www.google.com.vn/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d5efd3a0-b32f-11e6-a37c-f4a01f1b0fa1
    Nothing to do with Rees Mogg - it's a jab at Labour. Manny Shinwell's desecration of the house (against the protests of the local unions) was done purely as a spiteful class-based statement.

    I suspect Corbyn would have been a strong supporter.
  • ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Yes. At the risk of repeating myself while leaving the EU may be a bad idea attempting to subvert the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea
  • Mr. Eagles, terribly sorry, I didn't realise I was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Conservative Party. I was under the impression I had a choice as to where I cast my vote.

    [It's possible I'll vote Conservative (still need to see how negotiations go), although I'd suggest you alter your rhetoric when trying to persuade people that's a good idea, even if they do have the temerity to indicate they might vote elsewhere if they're unhappy with how the Government handles the single biggest issue facing the country today].

    I'd guess/hope that post of yours was tongue in cheek, but it came across as rather genuine.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    edited December 2016

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Yes. At the risk of repeating myself while leaving the EU may be a bad idea attempting to subvert the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea
    And by "subvert" you mean arguing for an outcome that differs from the one you wish to see, of course.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I am not too bothered about healing the divisions in our society. That is doomed to fail as another bit of futile social engineering.

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?
    Why would you not want to help out those less fortunate than yourself?
    Brendan O'Neill, as always, says it best.

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/805124315494645760
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Essexit said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    A remarkably unpleasant post.
    Indeed but a very revealing view of the "liberal" mindset
  • The only half decent value in TSE's table of odds in the thread header is the 8/1 against Carswell re-joining the Tories, if they'd accept him back .... he must now realise that he's going nowhere fast with UKIP and is in grave danger of losing his seat at the next GE.
    The miserable odds of just evens against Zac Goldsmith re-joining the Tories is a complete NoNo in my view. He's let the party down very badly and deserves a good spanking.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited December 2016
    Once again the vacuum at the heart of our politics causes division.

    No-one had a clue what post EU Britain looks like.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751

    ydoethur said:


    Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism.

    The SWP's time has come at last.

    No, because that wouldn't be fair sharing (google 'Leonid Brezhnev dacha' if you don't believe me). What we do need to ensure however is that serious market problems - for example the payment of wages in this country that are below subsistence level in Britain but lead to an excellent lifestyle in Poland - are not allowed to happen, fuelling resentment and unemployment. The minimum wage was a rather clumsy attempt to do this, but for various reasons it hasn't worked. Restrictions on migration are in other ways problematic but may be part of a solution. That is why 52% of the people were at least willing to try them.
    Oh I see. Go for hard Brexit, get rid of the Romanians and the UK will cease to be the sixth most unequal country in the OECD?

    Worth a try I guess. What could possibly go wrong?
    I'll make one last attempt at getting through to you, and then I'll leave it, because in addition to your rudeness and arrogance you are also clearly uninterested in understanding why people disagree with you, despite the fact that you are in a minority.

    I personally don't think migration controls will work. Nor do I necessarily think they're desirable. But I live a comfortable lifestyle and my job is not under threat from it.

    If you are unemployed, and the only job you can get is depressed to minimum wage (which employers often ignore, incidentally) because they can hire Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians etc for that money and make bigger profits, then wouldn't you be in favour of making it at the very least more difficult and expensive to hire those people so wages would go up?

    And if your city has been trashed by generations of remote politicians making decisions that will advance their careers and sod the cost, wouldn't you genuinely believe regardless of the facts that this was happening because they don't care and not because actually there are in the real world limits to what they can do?

    And above all, if the EU is blamed for all of this as a convenient scapegoat, and elects a bunch of people who in this country would be in prison to run themselves - wouldn't you link the two and vote against it?

    I didn't appreciate the depth of feeling in the country over the issue - that's a bad miss on my part given I worked in schools in these areas for a long time and knew what was being said. But you don't even want to hear in the first place and shout insults at anyone who challenges your version of events.

    And then you wonder why half the country ignored you.
  • Miss Vance, whilst we had differing views over how to vote, I agree entirely that an attempt to subvert the result would have a dramatically ugly effect on politics.

    If we leave properly (and there's a pretty broad range of how we can do that, I was quite relaxed about Davis' single market comments) then things will gradually improve. If we don't, and staying in the customs union would be one such example, they'll only get more bitter.
  • Mr. Eagles, terribly sorry, I didn't realise I was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Conservative Party. I was under the impression I had a choice as to where I cast my vote.

    [It's possible I'll vote Conservative (still need to see how negotiations go), although I'd suggest you alter your rhetoric when trying to persuade people that's a good idea, even if they do have the temerity to indicate they might vote elsewhere if they're unhappy with how the Government handles the single biggest issue facing the country today].

    I'd guess/hope that post of yours was tongue in cheek, but it came across as rather genuine.

    It was more a indicator of the next general election campaign from the Tories that people like you in the marginals are going to be subjected to. 'If you don't vote Tory, then Corbyn become PM'
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Good morning, everyone.

    Staying in the customs union, as suggested, would be flaccid, not merely soft. It seems Mr. Eagles' forecast of a departure in name only may come true.

    Well, it'd certainly make my decision of who to vote for at the next election an interesting one.

    Edited extra bit: there's a trailer for The Last of Us - Part 2 up on Youtube for those interested.

    You really do hate your country and fellow countrymen not only do you want to make the country poorer you also want Jeremy Corbyn as PM.
    How does Corbyn become PM with UKIP most seats?

    I am amazed at how well my bet is staying alive
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I am not too bothered about healing the divisions in our society. That is doomed to fail as another bit of futile social engineering.

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?
    Gosh there is a real and nasty hostility to democracy from "liberals" when it produces the 'wrong' result.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    I think you missed my point. They were effectively asked to bail us out by voting for the EU, despite blaming it for trashing things they cared about, like their jobs.

    They refused to do so, and if we are ever to get this sorted we do have to work on helping them out and bringing them back into the mainstream. That won't be easy, but it's terrifying to think of what could happen if we don't at least try.
  • Mr. Eagles, do you remember how well haranguing the electorate worked for David 'Little Englander' Cameron?

    If the Conservatives tell me I *have to* vote one way, my visceral response will be to tell them to sod off. I'm not being bullied into voting for a party, particularly if it's one that has us staying in the customs union. I've said all along that's practically the only area where I have a firm view on what should happen, and staying in is not it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    Mr Dancer, the whole thing has already had a phenomenally ugly effect. Look at this thread for starters.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the people who have been utterly hammered by it that voted out, which unfortunately represented the majority of England and all of Wales.



    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I am not too bothered about healing the divisions in our society. That is doomed to fail as another bit of futile social engineering.

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?
    Gosh there is a real and nasty hostility to democracy from "liberals" when it produces the 'wrong' result.
    Yes. There is a growing danger that our national discourse is going to be disfigured by an ugly culture war, just like the US. Does anyone really want this?
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism.

    The SWP's time has come at last.

    No, because that wouldn't be fair sharing (google 'Leonid Brezhnev dacha' if you don't believe me). What we do need to ensure however is that serious market problems - for example the payment of wages in this country that are below subsistence level in Britain but lead to an excellent lifestyle in Poland - are not allowed to happen, fuelling resentment and unemployment. The minimum wage was a rather clumsy attempt to do this, but for various reasons it hasn't worked. That is why 52% of the people were at least willing to try them.
    Oh I see. Go for hard Brexit, get rid of the Romanians and the UK will cease to be the sixth most unequal country in the OECD?

    Worth a try I guess. What could possibly go wrong?
    I'll make one last attempt at getting through to you, and then I'll leave it, because in addition to your rudeness and arrogance you are also clearly uninterested in understanding why people disagree with you, despite the fact that you are in a minority.

    I personally don't think migration controls will work. Nor do I necessarily think they're desirable. But I live a comfortable lifestyle and my job is not under threat from it.

    If you are unemployed, and the only job you can get is depressed to minimum wage (which employers often ignore, incidentally) because they can hire Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians etc for that money and make bigger profits, then wouldn't you be in favour of making it at the very least more difficult and expensive to hire those people so wages would go up?

    And if your city has been trashed by generations of remote politicians making decisions that will advance their careers and sod the cost, wouldn't you genuinely believe regardless of the facts that this was happening because they don't care and not because actually there are in the real world limits to what they can do?

    And above all, if the EU is blamed for all of this as a convenient scapegoat, and elects a bunch of people who in this country would be in prison to run themselves - wouldn't you link the two and vote against it?

    I didn't appreciate the depth of feeling in the country over the issue - that's a bad miss on my part given I worked in schools in these areas for a long time and knew what was being said. But you don't even want to hear in the first place and shout insults at anyone who challenges your version of events.

    And then you wonder why half the country ignored you.
    And almost half of the country ignored you.

    What's important now is what to do next. I suggested that hard Brexit would not address the sorry plight of the people you seem to be concerned about.

    Do you agree?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Essexit said:



    Brendan O'Neill, as always, says it best.

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/805124315494645760

    Is it the poor who did that or people on a reasonable wage who wanted to defend what they had?

    Genuine question. People are trying to paint the Trump win as the poor rebellion against the Dems but Clinton easily won the poorest sections of society. It was the block from 50,000 to 100,000 that trump won bigely with. 100,000 a year is not poor by any stretch of the imagination
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    Neither Washington nor Moscow but International Socialism.

    The SWP's time has come at last.

    No, because that wouldn't be fair sharing .
    Oh I see. Go for hard Brexit, get rid of the Romanians and the UK will cease to be the sixth most unequal country in the OECD?

    Worth a try I guess. What could possibly go wrong?
    I'll make one last attempt at getting through to you, and then I'll leave it, because in addition to your rudeness and arrogance you are also clearly uninterested in understanding why people disagree with you, despite the fact that you are in a minority.

    I personally don't think migration controls will work. Nor do I necessarily think they're desirable. But I live a comfortable lifestyle and my job is not under threat from it.

    If you are unemployed, and the only job you can get is depressed to minimum wage (which employers often ignore, incidentally) because they can hire Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians etc for that money and make bigger profits, then wouldn't you be in favour of making it at the very least more difficult and expensive to hire those people so wages would go up?

    And if your city has been trashed by generations of remote politicians making decisions that will advance their careers and sod the cost, wouldn't you genuinely believe regardless of the facts that this was happening because they don't care and not because actually there are in the real world limits to what they can do?

    And above all, if the EU is blamed for all of this as a convenient scapegoat, and elects a bunch of people who in this country would be in prison to run themselves - wouldn't you link the two and vote against it?

    I didn't appreciate the depth of feeling in the country over the issue - that's a bad miss on my part given I worked in schools in these areas for a long time and knew what was being said. But you don't even want to hear in the first place and shout insults at anyone who challenges your version of events.

    And then you wonder why half the country ignored you.
    Brexit is not going to cure the ills of globalisation. The potteries and steel mills are not returning.

    Pandering to a tantrum is never a good response. I shall just stand aside and watch.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751

    And almost half of the country ignored you.

    What's important now is what to do next. I suggested that hard Brexit would not address the sorry plight of the people you seem to be concerned about.

    Do you agree?

    I voted Remain...
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:

    And almost half of the country ignored you.

    What's important now is what to do next. I suggested that hard Brexit would not address the sorry plight of the people you seem to be concerned about.

    Do you agree?

    I voted Remain...
    You seem to be stuck in reverse. Try answering the question.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Let's hope Brexit is the answer to poverty.

    What if it isn't? What if making the nation poorer has an adverse effect? What do we do then?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    felix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    The first seems possible - after all, the people who have done well out of the EU, like you and I, voted in. It was the

    The second one is not possible, as Jeremy Corbyn and George Osborne were both remainers. :wink: However given the more limited educational opportunities in those areas (bearing in mind that is essentially what IQ scores measure despite the claims of its creators) I wouldn't be surprised to find on average Leavers did score worse than remainers.

    What this whole thing has exposed is a really nasty fault line in politics and society. Under Blair, and to a great extent Thatcher as well, small cliques of corrupt and narcissistic self interest groups dominated politics and distracted attention from the real problems (e.g. the NUT claiming that GM schools were the real problem in education, allowing Labour to ignore the real problems of understaffing and bureaucracy that were at least partly the NUT's fault and which has throttled education ever since). Anyone who was not in those groups was simply ignored.

    To misquote David Wong's superb article on Trump, Brexit is a brick through our windows: 'Are you assholes listening now?' I'm willing to. What worries me is that so many remainers are so sore and shocked that they are devoting all their energy to mudslinging, insults and trying to get round the result without addressing these fundamental problems. Which is going to end badly for all of us.
    Very good post.

    As some of us have previously argued, we have forgotten as a society to ask - in relation to globalisation and immigration and similar - who enjoys the benefits and who pays the costs.

    Until we do - and we will need to do this for Brexit, whatever version we end up with - and ensure that the costs and benefits are more fairly shared, we will have no chance of healing the divisions in our society.
    I am not too bothered about healing the divisions in our society. That is doomed to fail as another bit of futile social engineering.

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?
    Gosh there is a real and nasty hostility to democracy from "liberals" when it produces the 'wrong' result.
    Vernon Bogdanor has pointed out that all the old arguments that were made against extending the franchise are now being aired again, from the left.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Jonathan said:

    Let's hope Brexit is the answer to poverty.

    What if it isn't? What if making the nation poorer has an adverse effect? What do we do then?

    It won't be.
  • Mr. Doethur, I agree, but the Crisis of the Third Century was already worthy of the name before the Gallic and Palmyrene Empires split away. Things can always get worse.

    Dr. Foxinsox, I agree. The challenges posed by globalisation will not be solved (excepting perhaps at the edges) by leaving the EU. The challenges of having foreign bureaucrats dictate laws may be, although given how floppy the Government stance appears to be I'm beginning to suspect you'll be rather happier with the deal than I will be.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    "Muslims in some parts of the country are so cut off from the rest of society that they believe the majority of Britons share their faith, according to a shock new report.

    The major review by the Government’s integration tsar Dame Louise Casey has found that thousands of Muslims live in enclaves with their own housing estates, schools and television channels.

    Some rarely, if ever, leave their neighbourhoods, and believe that Britain is a Muslim country in which up to three-quarters of the population follow Islam, according to sources who have seen the report.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3998166/Isolated-British-Muslims-cut-rest-society-UK-75-cent-Islamic-shock-report-reveals.html#ixzz4RrIImmTu
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Roger said:

    It would be interesting to know how much of the UK's GDP is produced by 'Remainers' as opposed to 'Leavers' Must be well over 90%.....

    Only marginally less than the share of the country's IQ I'd imagine

    Eddie Izzard, Bob Geldof, and Mike Hancock would drag down the average.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    The culture of entitlement I see is one in the City and the professions which service it who seem to think that they are entitled to be in highly paid jobs and live in ludicrously expensive houses regardless of whether this is good for society as a whole. Too many of them apparently don't care about people outside their own social class or geographical area or feel much obligation to contribute to the society in which they live.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2016
    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:



    Brendan O'Neill, as always, says it best.

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/805124315494645760

    Is it the poor who did that or people on a reasonable wage who wanted to defend what they had?

    Genuine question. People are trying to paint the Trump win as the poor rebellion against the Dems but Clinton easily won the poorest sections of society. It was the block from 50,000 to 100,000 that trump won bigely with. 100,000 a year is not poor by any stretch of the imagination
    Poor African Americans and Latinos did not vote Trump, but in Clay County Ky 86% voted Trump. It is one of the poorest counties in the USA:

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a50874/clay-county-kentucky-healthcare-trump/

    If people walk into a polling station and say "fu*k your status quo", the why shouldn't I respond with two fingers when they come with their begging bowl?
  • I take the point about the by-election precedent, but Carswell's seat is likely to get faffed around with by the Boundary Commission and I think the result will be less UKIP-friendly? If that's the case maybe he'll re-rat. The hitch is that it might make more sense to leave it until later.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751

    ydoethur said:

    And almost half of the country ignored you.

    What's important now is what to do next. I suggested that hard Brexit would not address the sorry plight of the people you seem to be concerned about.

    Do you agree?

    I voted Remain...
    You seem to be stuck in reverse. Try answering the question.
    I did. Unfortunately as you lack both intelligence and good manners, you were unable to work it out from what I thought was a fairly plain statement and became abusive, as you always do, which is why I hold you in contempt.

    I will spell it out for you. I do not think Brexit will help the poor - I agree with the good @doctorfoxinsoxuk that the jobs are not coming back - but I am taking the trouble to understand why it's happened to try and sort the mess out. You don't care about that, so unfortunately you are doomed to wander through life in a bubble of your own confusion at why the world seems all wrong to you. I feel sorry for you because all bubbles ultimately burst.
  • It's a rubbish article- half the growth is down to inflation- and the other half is a roaring 2% a year....
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    The culture of entitlement I see is one in the City and the professions which service it who seem to think that they are entitled to be in highly paid jobs and live in ludicrously expensive houses regardless of whether this is good for society as a whole. Too many of them apparently don't care about people outside their own social class or geographical area or feel much obligation to contribute to the society in which they live.
    Now let's see. Which party cut the top rate of tax? And which party opposed it?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    A superb series of posts, Y Doethur.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    The culture of entitlement I see is one in the City and the professions which service it who seem to think that they are entitled to be in highly paid jobs and live in ludicrously expensive houses regardless of whether this is good for society as a whole. Too many of them apparently don't care about people outside their own social class or geographical area or feel much obligation to contribute to the society in which they live.
    The true culture of entitlement is one in which there are no penalties for failure at a senior level, which exist in both the public and private sectors.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited December 2016

    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:



    Brendan O'Neill, as always, says it best.

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/805124315494645760

    Is it the poor who did that or people on a reasonable wage who wanted to defend what they had?

    Genuine question. People are trying to paint the Trump win as the poor rebellion against the Dems but Clinton easily won the poorest sections of society. It was the block from 50,000 to 100,000 that trump won bigely with. 100,000 a year is not poor by any stretch of the imagination
    Poor African Americans and Latinos did not vote Trump, but in Clay County Ky 86% voted Trump. It is one of the poorest counties in the USA:

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a50874/clay-county-kentucky-healthcare-trump/

    If people walk into a polling station and say "fu*k your status quo", the why shouldn't I repond with two fingers when they come with their begging bowl?
    So this is what the LibDems really think !

    I voted LibDem in 2015 in a hyper-marginal that the LibDems lost.

    When their candidate comes round in 2017 or 2020, I'll have my two fingers ready.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    My main account appears to have been banned over a month ago. No one told what the ban was for, or how long it lasted. I have emailed both RCS and OGH to pursue this and sofar got no progress. I would not usual go in for creating second accounts, but have run out of ideas, it might be good for an email address for the Mods to appear on the site somewhere ?
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    And almost half of the country ignored you.

    What's important now is what to do next. I suggested that hard Brexit would not address the sorry plight of the people you seem to be concerned about.

    Do you agree?

    I voted Remain...
    You seem to be stuck in reverse. Try answering the question.
    I did. Unfortunately as you lack both intelligence and good manners, you were unable to work it out from what I thought was a fairly plain statement and became abusive, as you always do, which is why I hold you in contempt.

    I will spell it out for you. I do not think Brexit will help the poor - I agree with the good @doctorfoxinsoxuk that the jobs are not coming back - but I am taking the trouble to understand why it's happened to try and sort the mess out. You don't care about that, so unfortunately you are doomed to wander through life in a bubble of your own confusion at why the world seems all wrong to you. I feel sorry for you because all bubbles ultimately burst.
    I'll resist the ad hominem attacks you seem to delight in.

    What pray is your solution? I'm all ears.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited December 2016

    A superb series of posts, Y Doethur.

    Diolch yn fawr iawn.

    Alas, I am getting disillusioned by the tone this morning which seems to have become thoroughly unpleasant, and I worry I am getting dragged down myself. I shall head off to play some nice advent hymns instead.

    Have a good morning everyone.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Alistair said:

    Essexit said:



    Brendan O'Neill, as always, says it best.

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/805124315494645760

    Is it the poor who did that or people on a reasonable wage who wanted to defend what they had?

    Genuine question. People are trying to paint the Trump win as the poor rebellion against the Dems but Clinton easily won the poorest sections of society. It was the block from 50,000 to 100,000 that trump won bigely with. 100,000 a year is not poor by any stretch of the imagination
    Poor African Americans and Latinos did not vote Trump, but in Clay County Ky 86% voted Trump. It is one of the poorest counties in the USA:

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a50874/clay-county-kentucky-healthcare-trump/

    If people walk into a polling station and say "fu*k your status quo", the why shouldn't I respond with two fingers when they come with their begging bowl?
    Instead they should be properly and humbly grateful for whatever charity you choose to bestow upon them.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Hasn't the government just thrown a few million quid at an historic Rees-Mogg property - or one owned by his wife's family - for restoration? That's quite a bung to stay onside.

    News to me. Do you have a link to a story on it?

    https://www.google.com.vn/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d5efd3a0-b32f-11e6-a37c-f4a01f1b0fa1
    Paywall, but the headline speaks for itself!

    Ah, thanks to google I can read it. Do the Rees-Moggs still live there?
    No. It was sold almost 30 years ago. In fact they never lived there as the house was sold by the Trust when Rees-Moggs' father in law died. The link made by the papers is just a rather sophisticated smear.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    ydoethur said:

    A superb series of posts, Y Doethur.

    Diolch yn fawr iawn.

    Alas, I am getting disillusioned by the tone this morning which seems to be getting thoroughly unpleasant. I shall head off to play some nice advent hymns instead.

    Have a good morning everyone.
    It's most upsetting when people challenge your worldview. Enjoy the hymns.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PlatoSaid said:

    "Muslims in some parts of the country are so cut off from the rest of society that they believe the majority of Britons share their faith, according to a shock new report.

    The major review by the Government’s integration tsar Dame Louise Casey has found that thousands of Muslims live in enclaves with their own housing estates, schools and television channels.

    Some rarely, if ever, leave their neighbourhoods, and believe that Britain is a Muslim country in which up to three-quarters of the population follow Islam, according to sources who have seen the report.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3998166/Isolated-British-Muslims-cut-rest-society-UK-75-cent-Islamic-shock-report-reveals.html#ixzz4RrIImmTu
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    To be fair believing 75% of the nation follows Islam just matches up with the belief of the average Daily Mail reader.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited December 2016
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    I think you missed my point. They were effectively asked to bail us out by voting for the EU, despite blaming it for trashing things they cared about, like their jobs.

    They refused to do so, and if we are ever to get this sorted we do have to work on helping them out and bringing them back into the mainstream. That won't be easy, but it's terrifying to think of what could happen if we don't at least try.
    Interesting how some REMAINers appear to prioritize marginally different economic performance over fundamental questions of democracy.....if they don't like this answer, but find a workaround- they really won't like the next answer they get...

    As it happens, I think "the people got it wrong" - but their right to get it wrong is orders of magnitude more important than EU membership.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    I take the point about the by-election precedent, but Carswell's seat is likely to get faffed around with by the Boundary Commission and I think the result will be less UKIP-friendly? If that's the case maybe he'll re-rat. The hitch is that it might make more sense to leave it until later.

    As I recall the proposed Harwich and Clacton has a notional Ukip majority of 2,000 or so. Less friendly than Clacton, and there's the possibility of Labour/Lib Dem tactical voting.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    The culture of entitlement I see is one in the City and the professions which service it who seem to think that they are entitled to be in highly paid jobs and live in ludicrously expensive houses regardless of whether this is good for society as a whole. Too many of them apparently don't care about people outside their own social class or geographical area or feel much obligation to contribute to the society in which they live.
    You know the City better than me, but a culture of entitlement is one of the most universal British values. It is present everywhere, and not particularly new.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Why would I want to bail out people who trash things that I care about?

    That was unfortunately the question asked by the redundant potters of Stoke and the unemployed steelworkers of Redcar, both of whom blame (a) the EU and (b) urban middle classes especially in London for their plight, before they voted out.

    Until we at least make the effort to try and understand each other, we're doomed to stay in a vicious circle of misunderstanding and suspicion consisting of a dialogue of the deaf (please excuse the mixed metaphor). Your post doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we can sort this mess out.
    The unemployed potters of Stoke and steel workers of Redcar are not bailing anyone out, on the contrary they are insulting the people who can bail them out. It is a culture of entitlement.

    The culture of entitlement I see is one in the City and the professions which service it who seem to think that they are entitled to be in highly paid jobs and live in ludicrously expensive houses regardless of whether this is good for society as a whole. Too many of them apparently don't care about people outside their own social class or geographical area or feel much obligation to contribute to the society in which they live.
    You may not realise that downsizing is a doctor - they don't get much more entitled I fear.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mr. Doethur, I agree, but the Crisis of the Third Century was already worthy of the name before the Gallic and Palmyrene Empires split away. Things can always get worse.

    Dr. Foxinsox, I agree. The challenges posed by globalisation will not be solved (excepting perhaps at the edges) by leaving the EU. The challenges of having foreign bureaucrats dictate laws may be, although given how floppy the Government stance appears to be I'm beginning to suspect you'll be rather happier with the deal than I will be.

    No, I am in favour of Hard Brexit. Nothing less than a decade or so of it will teach the nessecary lesson, that the EU is not the cause of what ails British society.

    I can survive it quite well, and in a globalised yet atomised world, turn my back on it to a large extent.
This discussion has been closed.