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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Guido says the Tories are bracing themselves for charges over

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Guido says the Tories are bracing themselves for charges over Thanet South

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    First!
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    £200k on one seat......does that mean another by-election (or a re-run) seeing what happened in Winchester (where M Oaten increased his majority by 20000) I still reckon it would stay Tory - I cannot help but feel that UKIP running out of steam
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    Second ..... grrh!

    I've just noticed that it's possible to back Labour at 510 to win Sleaford and Hykeham; that's equivalent to 483/1 in old money net of their 5% commission which must be something of a record for a major UK party. Worth printing off and sticking in the scrapbook methinks!
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    edited December 2016
    The Prime Minister [David Cameron] says he is confident the Conservative party will be cleared of any wrong-doing over allegations about election expenses in South Thanet.

    On a visit to Kent to campaign for the UK to remain in the EU at this month’s referendum, he said he believed the party could answer all the questions being asked.


    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/we-can-answer-questions-on-96913/
  • Options
    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....
  • Options
    If true, this demonstrates a willful lack of control from Conservative Central Office and Mrs May owes a duty to ensure that heads roll and no mistake.
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    "PB sources have also reported concern within the Tory HQ about other seats"....any idea which ones, I had heard rumblings about Torbay and then the local Police and Crime Commissioner story got in the way...so it went quiet
  • Options

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
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    A few days ago I backed the LibDems at evens with Laddies to finish ahead of Labour in Sleaford & Hykeham. Judging by the latest crazy odds against an overall Labour victory (as per my post below), the Yellow Team might still be value at the somewhat shorter odds of 4/7, but DYOR.
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    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    How exactly do you define a "belter"? Or putting it another way, what possible penalties lie in store against the Tories?
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    Guido needs a good story, perhaps this is it!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    If the LibDems and Labour have been punished for not declaring spend that would not, if declared, have otherwise put them in any difficulty in relation to electoral law and spending limits, it is hard to see how or why the Conservatives should escape from the consequences of spending that puts them clearly in breach?
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    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
  • Options

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    How exactly do you define a "belter"?
    One that plays to the narrative that 'the establishment elite are out to stop the ordinary folk' - in this case in the unlikely form of Nigel Farage.....
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    To get at least three steps ahead of ourselves looking at those 2015 figures there should be a Tatton style Independent in any Thanet South By-election with Lab/Lib/Green standing down. The other factor would be whether the incumbent would be a candidate. But as I say three steps ahead. Entirely hypothetical.

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    If true, this demonstrates a willful lack of control from Conservative Central Office and Mrs May owes a duty to ensure that heads roll and no mistake.


    Feldman & Shapps are gone - McLoughlin became Chairman 14 months after the GE....
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    I'd have thought this was another reason to back #Mayday. I can't think of worse peacetime circumstances for a government to have it's narrow majority chipped away by By-elections than 2017.
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    If true, this demonstrates a willful lack of control from Conservative Central Office and Mrs May owes a duty to ensure that heads roll and no mistake.

    Is that the case for the defence? CCHQ is innocent -- it was those nasty oiks in Thanet?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Yet another reason to roll the clock back to 1 Jan 2014.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    If true, this demonstrates a willful lack of control from Conservative Central Office and Mrs May owes a duty to ensure that heads roll and no mistake.


    Feldman & Shapps are gone - McLoughlin became Chairman 14 months after the GE....
    Isn't Shapps a Minister?
    Could he go to prison?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    If this is true, it shows that David Cameron was more concerned with stopping Farage than winning the General Election itself. I'm sure PB Tories will be delighted with that.
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    Strange coincidences of our time: police about to move on Thanet and the police sex abuse scandal hits the news. What would the Donald tweet?
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited December 2016

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
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    rkrkrk said:

    If true, this demonstrates a willful lack of control from Conservative Central Office and Mrs May owes a duty to ensure that heads roll and no mistake.


    Feldman & Shapps are gone - McLoughlin became Chairman 14 months after the GE....
    Isn't Shapps a Minister?
    Could he go to prison?
    No, he's a back bencher - stood down over the bullying allegations a year ago.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    rkrkrk said:

    If true, this demonstrates a willful lack of control from Conservative Central Office and Mrs May owes a duty to ensure that heads roll and no mistake.


    Feldman & Shapps are gone - McLoughlin became Chairman 14 months after the GE....
    Isn't Shapps a Minister?
    Could he go to prison?
    No, he's a back bencher - stood down over the bullying allegations a year ago.
    Thanks
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    OT Betfair has "overrule" out to 5.4 for buttons in its extremely illiquid market. I'm not sure what happens if the case is withdrawn.
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    Betfair now have a second place market for Sleaford ( the power of PB ? but only £20 has been matched. Might be worth checking during the day.
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    Good. It's a disgrace that parties seem to have been ignoring the law just because it's inconvenient.
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    On Sleaford etc, I expect Labour to do ok. I took 11/8 yesterday on them getting 10-20% of the vote share and I'm happy with that.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Morning. So all three parties are in big trouble over election expenses. Clearly either the rules are too restrictive or the punishments for breaking them too lenient.
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    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    Sandpit said:

    Morning. So all three parties are in big trouble over election expenses. Clearly either the rules are too restrictive or the punishments for breaking them too lenient.

    One of the points made by the EC itself in its recent reports is that the maximum £20000 fine is no longer sufficient disincentive in this era of big money politics.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    On Sleaford etc, I expect Labour to do ok. I took 11/8 yesterday on them getting 10-20% of the vote share and I'm happy with that.

    I think so too. The Labour vote held up well there in 2010, they have a candidate who is pro Brexit and WWC, and there are big issues with the Lincs NHS.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    It's also surprising given the huge effort Labour put into local campaigns, leafleting, canvassing and phoning, all of which are expensive, and few of which used local activists. Heck, they even boasted about it repeatedly on the national news.

    If the Tories are in breach, Labour undoubtedly will be as well. However, it isn't much of a story as it won them half a dozen seats at best (given the message from Miliband boiled down to 'vote for me because I'm not as weird as I come across and slightly less rich than the other guy' that's hardly surprising).
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

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    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The northernmost point of Ireland is not in Northern Ireland.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232

    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The northernmost point of Ireland is not in Northern Ireland.
    In fairness, that was also decided by a Boundary Commission in the 1920s (or to be exact, accepted following its collapse after disagreements between the UK and the Irish Free State).
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    ydoethur said:

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    It's also surprising given the huge effort Labour put into local campaigns, leafleting, canvassing and phoning, all of which are expensive, and few of which used local activists. Heck, they even boasted about it repeatedly on the national news.

    If the Tories are in breach, Labour undoubtedly will be as well. However, it isn't much of a story as it won them half a dozen seats at best (given the message from Miliband boiled down to 'vote for me because I'm not as weird as I come across and slightly less rich than the other guy' that's hardly surprising).
    This does take you into a grey area relating to the boundary between personal expenditure and party expenditure. For candidates and agents there are some rules on personal expenditure, and some declarations that can be made (rarely fully observed IMO). For volunteer helpers it is a grey area.

    For example I can drive to a distant by-election, spend a lot of money in petrol and hotel expenses whilst helping out, and this expenditure doesn't count as it is considered voluntary and personal to me.

    A party can do what the Tories did, and provide incentive for people to do exactly the same but by hiring a coach, booking a hotel, and laying on free Transport and accommodation for the helpers (including some paid staff). Clearly an election expense under current rules, but one the Tories tried to argue was national expenditure despite it clearly being aimed at a small number of key locations.

    Then there are grey areas like the Torbay Tory direct mail, which the Tories claim was national because it didn't actually mention Torbay or the local candidate's name, but was sent to lots of individual voters in the constituency and made references along the lines of 'in your area'. Personally I would see spending that can only influence a voter in one constituency as obviously local, but that isn't how the Tories have been arguing it.


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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280

    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The northernmost point of Ireland is not in Northern Ireland.
    I guess a pedant might argue that it is only North-ern and not actually Ireland North? But fair point.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    edited December 2016
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    Which tells me, apart from anything else, that this is a dud law that needs changing (especially in light of @IanB2's most informative reply - thank you).

    Will it be changed? I hear the vote in turkey farms this year was for there to be no Christmas, so I'm guessing not!
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    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    Which tells me, apart from anything else, that this is a dud law that needs changing (especially in light of @IanB2's most informative reply - thank you).

    Will it be changed? I hear the vote in turkey farms this year was for there to be no Christmas, so I'm guessing not!
    There are plenty of laws that I consider duds. I don't break them just because I think that they're stupid. But politicians seem to think that different rules apply to them.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning. So all three parties are in big trouble over election expenses. Clearly either the rules are too restrictive or the punishments for breaking them too lenient.

    One of the points made by the EC itself in its recent reports is that the maximum £20000 fine is no longer sufficient disincentive in this era of big money politics.
    Very much so. The rules also existed before national phone banks and social media teams, much blurring of the lines between local and national spending, more precise targeting of marginal and winnable seats etc.

    All parties had their battle buses (battle helicopter, in one case - hi Nicola!) and trying to tie them to arcane rules such as staying in the next town obviously isn't going to work.

    The EC should really take a good look at the rules of election spending - I'd favour looser rules on targeted campaigning but with serious penalties (10x the offence?) for offenders, as well as more personal liability for candidates, agents and key party officials. That said, we shouldn't be jailing politicians for electoral offences short of stuffing ballot boxes, that's not how democracy should work.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    One answer might be to scrap the national/local distinction in relation to campaign spending limits, and require all spending to be attributed locally, either to the particular locality if it only affects voters in that area, or pro-rata spread across multiple constituencies for spending that is genuinely national or regional.

    It might be more tricky in accounting terms (although not hugely so given that most parties budget in some detail for their campaigning in advance) but would at least reduce the scope for disguising obviously targeted spend within the much more generous national spending limits.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    Which tells me, apart from anything else, that this is a dud law that needs changing (especially in light of @IanB2's most informative reply - thank you).

    Will it be changed? I hear the vote in turkey farms this year was for there to be no Christmas, so I'm guessing not!
    There are plenty of laws that I consider duds. I don't break them just because I think that they're stupid. But politicians seem to think that different rules apply to them.
    Mr Meeks, you suffer as ever from your generosity of spirit.

    You have just implied that politicians think at least some rules apply to them. I would be more cynical than that.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    Which tells me, apart from anything else, that this is a dud law that needs changing.

    Will it be changed? I hear the vote in turkey farms this year was for there to be no Christmas, so I'm guessing not!
    Clearly the law is not being followed but which party wants to step up and say 'I think parties should be able to spend more in an election'? No matter if it's justified or not it would be seen as trying to buy elections. Like infant class size rules or motorway speed limits, maybe it should change but it looks too bad to suggest it.

    New 'guidance' on national vs local spend, all parties saying that is helpful while only making minor comments about their opponents being the worst offenders?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,294
    Section 81 is concerned with the election agent who has to provide the "true return" of expenses. Section 82 is a declaration by the candidate and s84 states failure to comply is an "illegal practice". Section 112 is also interesting in that it provides that anyone knowingly providing money for expenditure not allowed under the Act is guilty of an illegal payment. It seems to me that this is the provision which is going to bring this to CCHQ. Interestingly, Westlaw indicates that there have been no reported cases to date under this legislation. The word "knowingly" is often quite a barrier for prosecutors.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    It's amusing to note some people are petrified the government is seeking (or will have no choice but to accept) hard Brexit, while others are equally convinced they are pushing for soft Brexit. I'm in the former category, unfortunately, but it's still funny how worried people are by what they think the government are pushing for, when my perception of the same is so different.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    Not really, the Tories were clearly throwing the dog, the cat, the kitchen sink and the brick outbuilding at these marginals. It was the modern equivalent of flying pickets. Certainly needed some exploration.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    may have missed it upthread, but what, specifically, were the LD's fined for?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,121

    "PB sources have also reported concern within the Tory HQ about other seats"....any idea which ones, I had heard rumblings about Torbay and then the local Police and Crime Commissioner story got in the way...so it went quiet

    As someone very active on the inside of the Torbay campaign, I can say the only issue I have heard about was in relation to the "BattleBus", which appeared in Torquay for half a day and which the LibDem candidate mocked as being a group of people wandering around not knowing where they were or what they were doing. They were hardly the reason he went from a majority of over four thousand to losing by over three thousand....

    If Torbay was affected by serious electoral issues then I would be highly surprised.

    I'd reckon the only seat that the battlebus might have had any impact on the final result was The Gower. Oh, and at his lunch, OGH might like to inform Crick that regarding the battlebus, the volunteers paid for their own accommodation. His reporting suggested he didn't know this....
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    Tories are bent as three bob bits
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    edited December 2016
    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
    I don't think so. I wasn't contesting your point at all for a start. That's why I said 'less egregious breaches', showing the difference between the two. They probably were up to no good, but not as much,not as organised and not as effectively. its not really much to write home about- cheats less (but not not at all) than the opponent.

    That labour haven't made as big a deal of this as they could is proof, if any were needed, that even if they behaved better than the tories, they know they have behaved badly.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    edited December 2016
    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
    I think the bottom line is that most parties' national effort and national staff are likely to be focused principally on the their target seats, but the Tories have brought about the current controversy by formalising this into a minor industry with centrally funded mass-mailshots and free travel and accommodation for bus loads of helpers.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    "Pfizer fined record £84.2m for overcharging NHS"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38233852

    On the face of it, seems rather grubby behaviour by Pfizer.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
    I think the bottom line is that most parties' national effort and national staff are likely to be focused principally on the their target seats, but the Tories have brought brought about the current controversy by formalising this into a minor industry with centrally funded mass-mailshots and free travel and accommodation for bus loads of helpers.
    Agreed. Do you know why there is a national vs. local distinction? Wouldn't it be easier to just have one overall budget and let parties spend it as they see fit?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,294

    may have missed it upthread, but what, specifically, were the LD's fined for?

    Is being LDs not enough?
  • Options
    Suppose there were a referendum on abolishing election expense limits. How do we think that would play out?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    India appear to be unhappy about England finally finding a batsman who knows which way up to hold the bat. They've just knocked out the umpire.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,121
    If there was a re-run in Thanet South, would Farage stand and risk being kicked in the teeth by the voters for - what would it be - an eighth time?
  • Options
    @kle4 I think nobody knows, Hard and Soft Brexit are perhaps unhelpful terms and noone can know because it's a negotiation between 28 governments buffeted by God knows what over the next few years. I shared the link because I've found Charles Grant to be a nuanced and constructive voice over the last five months. That doesn't make him right if course.

    I think also the extraordinary and clearly exquisitely staged " West of Suez " imagery we've being seeing of the last 48 hours is a Halley's Comet sized harbnger. In my mind of Doom but that may be my biases.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232

    Suppose there were a referendum on abolishing election expense limits. How do we think that would play out?

    A referendum to abolish election expenses, and have one mail shot each paid for by the Treasury, might win by a landslide!
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, I'd always thought OGH considered Guido a bit infra dig......

    ......however, if the story is accurate - and given what's happened to the Lib Dems & Lab, and Crick's journalistic skill - there is a very good chance it's legit......in which case it's a belter.....

    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
    I don't think so. I wasn't contesting your point at all for a start. That's why I said 'less egregious breaches', showing the difference between the two. They probably were up to no good, but not as much,not as organised and not as effectively. its not really much to write home about- cheats less (but not not at all) than the opponent.

    That labour haven't made as big a deal of this as they could is proof, if any were needed, that even if they behaved better than the tories, they know they have behaved badly.
    Fair enough.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The tube line that runs furthest south? The Northern Line
    The most rural tube line? The Metropolitan Line.
    The line that runs furthest from the centre? The Central Line.....

    It's a national hobby coming up with misleading descriptors......
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,121
    DavidL said:

    may have missed it upthread, but what, specifically, were the LD's fined for?

    Is being LDs not enough?
    Should be at a minimum a jail term.....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:


    I should that PB sources have given a similar picture. I hope to be meeting Crick at a lunch later.
    I rate Crick as a journalist (known him since Uni), while he may be a Labour sympathiser he's a journalist first and foremost and if he had a similar story about Labour I've no doubt he'd run it.
    You may well be right, however I was just trying to remember the last time Crick ran a story of any size or importance against the Labour Party. That might of course simply be on account of them being as pure as the driven snow *cough*.
    OGH: "The Crick investigation has looked mostly at the GE2015 expenses in crucial battlegrounds for the Tories."
    Well there's a surprise!
    I think Crick anticipated you:
    https://www.channel4.com/news/by/michael-crick/blogs/labour-battlebus-operation

    So labour are keeping suspiciously quiet, on the whole, in the face of otherwise juicy investigations into Tory misdeeds, but initial investigations show it to likely be less egregious breaches than the tories and evidence not as strong.

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
    I don't think so. I wasn't contesting your point at all for a start. That's why I said 'less egregious breaches', showing the difference between the two. They probably were up to no good, but not as much,not as organised and not as effectively. its not really much to write home about- cheats less (but not not at all) than the opponent.

    That labour haven't made as big a deal of this as they could is proof, if any were needed, that even if they behaved better than the tories, they know they have behaved badly.
    That parties are staying very quiet while their opponents get in trouble says they all know there's plenty of skeletons in the electoral spending closet.

    Fair play to Crick, Guido and others that have actually done some good old-fashioned journalism here.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,294
    The reality is that with micro targeting, phone banks and social media campaigns the national campaigns have got very local where it is thought to matter. I think this puts the candidate and the mug persuaded to be his election agent in a very difficult situation. He or she may not even be asked or told about what the national campaign is doing on his behalf. He or she will almost certainly not be told what it cost. Indeed no one is likely to know as any allocation of the national resource will be little short of arbitrary.

    None of this excuses an utter disregard for the law as it stood but it does indicate going forward that the law is not fit for purpose and needs changed. I really don't like public bodies imposing fairly arbitrary fines on parties who are unlikely (to put it mildly) to want to fight back. it is the sort of practice that gave the EU a bad name. I think these questions are best left to courts.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    If there was a re-run in Thanet South, would Farage stand and risk being kicked in the teeth by the voters for - what would it be - an eighth time?

    Depends how involved with the frontline he still wants to be I guess.

    @kle4 I think nobody knows, Hard and Soft Brexit are perhaps unhelpful terms and noone can know because it's a negotiation between 28 governments buffeted by God knows what over the next few years. I shared the link because I've found Charles Grant to be a nuanced and constructive voice over the last five months. That doesn't make him right if course.

    I think also the extraordinary and clearly exquisitely staged " West of Suez " imagery we've being seeing of the last 48 hours is a Halley's Comet sized harbnger. In my mind of Doom but that may be my biases.

    You're right hard and soft are not firmly defined. I'm convinced now, after some hopeful noises, that it will be seen as hard because it's do much easier to achieve given it is a 28 nation negotiation, the eu will want to be able to say we got very little, and the hard Brexit gang are much more passionate and organised, so if we get anything from Europe, however small, which requires contributions or the line, the Gov will need the overall deal to look very hard to placate them.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The tube line that runs furthest south? The Northern Line
    The most rural tube line? The Metropolitan Line.
    The line that runs furthest from the centre? The Central Line.....

    It's a national hobby coming up with misleading descriptors......
    The whole point of the Metropolitan line was to create a metropolis! And it certainly opened up vast areas northwest of London to development.

    Although the Brill Tramway, a small rural backwater line 40 miles north of London, seems to have been one of London Underground's oddest lines.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Tramway
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The northernmost point of Ireland is not in Northern Ireland.
    The Northern Line in London does not serve the most northerly tube station. It does, however, serve the most southerly (Morden)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    This is going to bring a lot of people down - their whole operation was marketing rather than science, they had no product at all except the cash of their investors.
  • Options
    Another opportunity (or gaping hole in electoral law) exploited by the Conservative Party was the use of Youtube to evade broadcasting restrictions.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    edited December 2016

    IanB2 said:

    Only the boundary commission could put the northern extremity of Thanet into Thanet South.

    The northernmost point of Ireland is not in Northern Ireland.
    The Northern Line in London does not serve the most northerly tube station. It does, however, serve the most southerly (Morden)
    Under the Big Four railway companies, the London and North Eastern operated to the West Coast of Scotland, while Aberdeen on the East Coast was served by the LMS.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    kle4 said:

    If there was a re-run in Thanet South, would Farage stand and risk being kicked in the teeth by the voters for - what would it be - an eighth time?

    Depends how involved with the frontline he still wants to be I guess.

    @kle4 I think nobody knows, Hard and Soft Brexit are perhaps unhelpful terms and noone can know because it's a negotiation between 28 governments buffeted by God knows what over the next few years. I shared the link because I've found Charles Grant to be a nuanced and constructive voice over the last five months. That doesn't make him right if course.

    I think also the extraordinary and clearly exquisitely staged " West of Suez " imagery we've being seeing of the last 48 hours is a Halley's Comet sized harbnger. In my mind of Doom but that may be my biases.

    You're right hard and soft are not firmly defined. I'm convinced now, after some hopeful noises, that it will be seen as hard because it's do much easier to achieve given it is a 28 nation negotiation, the eu will want to be able to say we got very little, and the hard Brexit gang are much more passionate and organised, so if we get anything from Europe, however small, which requires contributions or the line, the Gov will need the overall deal to look very hard to placate them.
    I see no indication that we're going to come to a deal with the EU with any speed, and the longer things drag on the greater the uncertainty. Therefore I prefer any deal that can be done quickly, so we know where we stand and can start making progress.

    Though those in power might have a better idea of whether a quick deal is at all likely.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    But pretty clear that in this sort of thing the general refrain 'they're all at it' is true, the degree just varies from place to place.
    My point was that Crick did investigate labour...

    He does also say: In every single seat we’ve looked at, the costs of the Labour Express would not have pushed the candidate over the limit, even if they had been declared in full as local spending.

    So your summary perhaps underplays the scale of difference between labour and tory bus spending.
    I think the bottom line is that most parties' national effort and national staff are likely to be focused principally on the their target seats, but the Tories have brought brought about the current controversy by formalising this into a minor industry with centrally funded mass-mailshots and free travel and accommodation for bus loads of helpers.
    Agreed. Do you know why there is a national vs. local distinction? Wouldn't it be easier to just have one overall budget and let parties spend it as they see fit?
    As anyone who has ever had to fill in the forms will know - like most of British democracy - the paperwork, terminology and rules are mostly unchanged since the 19th Century.

    Originally there were only local candidates and local spending, and these were the original expenses rules that worked fine until the media age, when a much looser national limit was slapped on top to provide some constraint (not that it really does) on what the national parties could spend. I vaguely recall the latter being an innovation during the New Labour era, hoping to cap the Tory advantage in national financing.

    Unless it has changed very recently, the constituency paperwork looks like something from an historical archive; when I first started out, the party issued copious guidance on how to back-translate a modern campaign into a format that a 19th Century squire would recognise; nowadays I think most agents write something like "see attached sheet" on the form and then submit something that looks like the budgeting spreadsheet for a small enterprise.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    "Brexit: French financial regulator wooing London banks"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38245646
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    kle4 said:

    If there was a re-run in Thanet South, would Farage stand and risk being kicked in the teeth by the voters for - what would it be - an eighth time?

    Depends how involved with the frontline he still wants to be I guess.

    @kle4 I think nobody knows, Hard and Soft Brexit are perhaps unhelpful terms and noone can know because it's a negotiation between 28 governments buffeted by God knows what over the next few years. I shared the link because I've found Charles Grant to be a nuanced and constructive voice over the last five months. That doesn't make him right if course.

    I think also the extraordinary and clearly exquisitely staged " West of Suez " imagery we've being seeing of the last 48 hours is a Halley's Comet sized harbnger. In my mind of Doom but that may be my biases.

    You're right hard and soft are not firmly defined. I'm convinced now, after some hopeful noises, that it will be seen as hard because it's do much easier to achieve given it is a 28 nation negotiation, the eu will want to be able to say we got very little, and the hard Brexit gang are much more passionate and organised, so if we get anything from Europe, however small, which requires contributions or the line, the Gov will need the overall deal to look very hard to placate them.
    I see no indication that we're going to come to a deal with the EU with any speed, and the longer things drag on the greater the uncertainty. Therefore I prefer any deal that can be done quickly, so we know where we stand and can start making progress.

    Though those in power might have a better idea of whether a quick deal is at all likely.
    Only if it's a hard deal surely - it requires the least negotiation.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    ydoethur said:

    India appear to be unhappy about England finally finding a batsman who knows which way up to hold the bat. They've just knocked out the umpire.

    That looked bad, avoids joke about knocking some sense into the umps. Rule #1 in cricket, always watch the ball when it's live - whether you're player, umpire or spectator!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    "Brexit: French financial regulator wooing London banks"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38245646

    Would he be so public with it if it were not on the cards, or is it more of a pressure thing, I wonder.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    If there was a re-run in Thanet South, would Farage stand and risk being kicked in the teeth by the voters for - what would it be - an eighth time?

    Depends how involved with the frontline he still wants to be I guess.

    @kle4 I think nobody knows, Hard and Soft Brexit are perhaps unhelpful terms and noone can know because it's a negotiation between 28 governments buffeted by God knows what over the next few years. I shared the link because I've found Charles Grant to be a nuanced and constructive voice over the last five months. That doesn't make him right if course.

    I think also the extraordinary and clearly exquisitely staged " West of Suez " imagery we've being seeing of the last 48 hours is a Halley's Comet sized harbnger. In my mind of Doom but that may be my biases.

    You're right hard and soft are not firmly defined. I'm convinced now, after some hopeful noises, that it will be seen as hard because it's do much easier to achieve given it is a 28 nation negotiation, the eu will want to be able to say we got very little, and the hard Brexit gang are much more passionate and organised, so if we get anything from Europe, however small, which requires contributions or the line, the Gov will need the overall deal to look very hard to placate them.
    I see no indication that we're going to come to a deal with the EU with any speed, and the longer things drag on the greater the uncertainty. Therefore I prefer any deal that can be done quickly, so we know where we stand and can start making progress.

    Though those in power might have a better idea of whether a quick deal is at all likely.
    Only if it's a hard deal surely - it requires the least negotiation.
    I have little problem if a soft or flaccid Brexit would take six months longer. What concerns me is for the deal and the uncertainty to drag on for years afterwards despite the two year limit.

    People and business need to know where they stand.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,121
    DavidL said:

    The reality is that with micro targeting, phone banks and social media campaigns the national campaigns have got very local where it is thought to matter. I think this puts the candidate and the mug persuaded to be his election agent in a very difficult situation. He or she may not even be asked or told about what the national campaign is doing on his behalf. He or she will almost certainly not be told what it cost. Indeed no one is likely to know as any allocation of the national resource will be little short of arbitrary.

    None of this excuses an utter disregard for the law as it stood but it does indicate going forward that the law is not fit for purpose and needs changed. I really don't like public bodies imposing fairly arbitrary fines on parties who are unlikely (to put it mildly) to want to fight back. it is the sort of practice that gave the EU a bad name. I think these questions are best left to courts.

    If May should go for a snap election, it would be interesting to see if any lessons have been learnt by the national Conservative Party, or whether the same style election would be rolled out again.
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    Anything that increases the amount of money parties can spend in individual seats will increase the focus on marginals plus a few high profile decapitation efforts. Personally I think British politics needs that like a whole in the head. I imagine voters would find the issue arcane and not object to increased local limits - until the subsequent scandals generated by the parties needing to raise the extra cash.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    kle4 said:

    "Brexit: French financial regulator wooing London banks"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38245646

    Would he be so public with it if it were not on the cards, or is it more of a pressure thing, I wonder.
    They're doing exactly what we'd be doing in their circumstances, and I daresay the banks and institutions are sniffing around to see what sort of deal they could get.

    We need to make better offers, and use our advantages well. But do we have the ministerial team to do that?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,121
    kle4 said:

    "Brexit: French financial regulator wooing London banks"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38245646

    Would he be so public with it if it were not on the cards, or is it more of a pressure thing, I wonder.
    It's a French thing....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    DavidL said:

    The reality is that with micro targeting, phone banks and social media campaigns the national campaigns have got very local where it is thought to matter. I think this puts the candidate and the mug persuaded to be his election agent in a very difficult situation. He or she may not even be asked or told about what the national campaign is doing on his behalf. He or she will almost certainly not be told what it cost. Indeed no one is likely to know as any allocation of the national resource will be little short of arbitrary.

    None of this excuses an utter disregard for the law as it stood but it does indicate going forward that the law is not fit for purpose and needs changed. I really don't like public bodies imposing fairly arbitrary fines on parties who are unlikely (to put it mildly) to want to fight back. it is the sort of practice that gave the EU a bad name. I think these questions are best left to courts.

    If May should go for a snap election, it would be interesting to see if any lessons have been learnt by the national Conservative Party, or whether the same style election would be rolled out again.
    I think that would depend on what sort of punishments can be meted out and how long they take to occur. And how close they felt it would otherwise be. If they don't think those marginals need as much targeting, maybe not needed, if the worst that happens is a fine, then maybe if needed they would to the same.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :smiley:

    Christopher Snowden
    "You asked me once, Winston, what was in Room 101. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world." https://t.co/Qvr6jjs64E
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    kle4 said:

    If there was a re-run in Thanet South, would Farage stand and risk being kicked in the teeth by the voters for - what would it be - an eighth time?

    Depends how involved with the frontline he still wants to be I guess.

    @kle4 I think nobody knows, Hard and Soft Brexit are perhaps unhelpful terms and noone can know because it's a negotiation between 28 governments buffeted by God knows what over the next few years. I shared the link because I've found Charles Grant to be a nuanced and constructive voice over the last five months. That doesn't make him right if course.

    I think also the extraordinary and clearly exquisitely staged " West of Suez " imagery we've being seeing of the last 48 hours is a Halley's Comet sized harbnger. In my mind of Doom but that may be my biases.

    You're right hard and soft are not firmly defined. I'm convinced now, after some hopeful noises, that it will be seen as hard because it's do much easier to achieve given it is a 28 nation negotiation, the eu will want to be able to say we got very little, and the hard Brexit gang are much more passionate and organised, so if we get anything from Europe, however small, which requires contributions or the line, the Gov will need the overall deal to look very hard to placate them.
    I see no indication that we're going to come to a deal with the EU with any speed, and the longer things drag on the greater the uncertainty. Therefore I prefer any deal that can be done quickly, so we know where we stand and can start making progress.

    Though those in power might have a better idea of whether a quick deal is at all likely.
    Yes. While all the political rhetoric is of "Hard Brexit vs no Brexit", one assumes that when the negotiators actually sit down the discussions will be somewhat more nuanced.

    However, if that's actually the position of those around the table from the EU side as we sit down, then it would be for the best to exit quickly to avoid years of uncertainty. Business adapt to new realities more quickly than most people realise, but not knowing tomorrow's rules of the game is what kills them.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    kle4 said:

    "Brexit: French financial regulator wooing London banks"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38245646

    Would he be so public with it if it were not on the cards, or is it more of a pressure thing, I wonder.
    They're doing exactly what we'd be doing in their circumstances, and I daresay the banks and institutions are sniffing around to see what sort of deal they could get.

    We need to make better offers, and use our advantages well. But do we have the ministerial team to do that?
    I hope so.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    As a lawyer acquaintance of mine once said (paraphrasing); "the relevant laws have so many gaps that you could drive a coach and horses through them. What we need are more laws to close those gaps, so we can drive three coach and horses through!"

    How does the law currently define local spending?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    DavidL said:

    The reality is that with micro targeting, phone banks and social media campaigns the national campaigns have got very local where it is thought to matter. I think this puts the candidate and the mug persuaded to be his election agent in a very difficult situation. He or she may not even be asked or told about what the national campaign is doing on his behalf. He or she will almost certainly not be told what it cost. Indeed no one is likely to know as any allocation of the national resource will be little short of arbitrary.

    None of this excuses an utter disregard for the law as it stood but it does indicate going forward that the law is not fit for purpose and needs changed. I really don't like public bodies imposing fairly arbitrary fines on parties who are unlikely (to put it mildly) to want to fight back. it is the sort of practice that gave the EU a bad name. I think these questions are best left to courts.

    Because the limits are tightest at the local level, the bit that works well is passing expenditure upwards. If you're the agent for a council election and, say, there's a Euro election on the same day, put a piece on Europe in your leaflet or mention the euro-candidate's bio and you can offcharge a portion of the cost to the higher campaign; copy the relevant paperwork and email it off to your regional or national agent and, hey presto, job done.

    The bit that doesn't work at all is passing expenditure in the other direction, hence the Tories now have a big problem.

    One answer might be to ensure that the national limit is as constraining as the local ones are.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Very soggy today. On the plus side, the dog was a bit less hassle than has sometimes been the case when it comes to drying her.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280

    As a lawyer acquaintance of mine once said (paraphrasing); "the relevant laws have so many gaps that you could drive a coach and horses through them. What we need are more laws to close those gaps, so we can drive three coach and horses through!"

    How does the law currently define local spending?

    Something along the lines of all spending to procure the election of a particular candidate. Hence the Tories not saying Vote for Toryboy or Vote Tory in Torbay, but vote Tory where you live.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    I see Boris has been filmed saying Iran and Saudi Arabia act as puppeteers playing proxy wars in the Middle East. I guess that's something completely true which everyone knows but is not supposed to say, when foreign secretary?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Good morning, everyone.

    Very soggy today. On the plus side, the dog was a bit less hassle than has sometimes been the case when it comes to drying her.

    What's Miss Hound's name? Meg?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited December 2016
    kle4 said:

    I see Boris has been filmed saying Iran and Saudi Arabia act as puppeteers playing proxy wars in the Middle East. I guess that's something completely true which everyone knows but is not supposed to say, when foreign secretary?

    Especially not on the day the PM is guest at the GCC conference in Bahrain!
    http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/gcc-and-britain-announce-new-strategic-partnership
This discussion has been closed.