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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What Corbyn’s re-election and the huge increase in membership is doing to LAB as an electoral force

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Theuniondivvie

First, barring recounts.

TheScreamingEagles

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

GIN1138

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

rcs1000

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's almost like he wants to lose the Sunderland seats.

Dura_Ace

Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

[Deleted User]

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!

Morris_Dancer

That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

logical_song

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Could it be that he spends the next two years getting such a grip on the party that the moderates can't take it back, then steps down just before the election so a more electable left winger can beat a by then unpopular May?
Nah.

PlatoSaid

For anyone who missed Niall Ferguson in STimes, here it for free

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/12/12/was-wrong-brexit/P9xUZuE1OGjpkV1wxiZ79J/story.html?event=event25

[Deleted User]

Morris_Dancer said:

That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

That's a bar chart based on 3 by-elections including one in Richmond. It's an OGH headgasm of very very little relevance or meaning.

Pulpstar

Dura_Ace said:

Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

Tosh.

SandyRentool

On percentage change, May's Tories doing far worse than Jezza's Labour!

not_on_fire

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Or for evil?

PlatoSaid

Patrick said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!

Labour are as relevant as the Lib Dems right now. I don't even think of what they'd say.

This isn't good for democracy, but we are where we are. And it's all self inflicted via EdM

Pulpstar

Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html

JosiasJessop

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

Morris_Dancer

Miss Plato, I think Miliband deserves some blame, but the lion's share belongs to idiotic Labour MPs who failed to understand their own leadership rules.

Sandpit

FPT, for @David_Herdson

I double checked sources for UK govt fuel duty receipts and the accepted 15/16 figure is 27.6bn - 5% of total govt receipts.

Also add 5.5bn for VED revenue, for which electric cars are exempt.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/

SimonStClare

Pulpstar said:

Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html

Oh dear, this result has effectively ended the recount efforts of Green Party presidential hopeful Jill Stein in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan.

Wonder what she’ll do with all those left over $millions...

logical_song

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.

Sandpit

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

When the EU banned light bulbs a year or two ago?

MikeSmithson

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

williamglenn

JosiasJessop said:

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.

dr_spyn

Who bears the risk of installing the EV charging points, and where will the energy come from? Tesla have had serious problems with chargers and several recalls. I look forward to hearing how much extra will be needed to replace the fleets of ambulances, fire engines et al.

Cobyn and others will only be happy if consumers have the E-Trabant available.

MarkHopkins

Pulpstar said:

Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html

Perhaps Trump should start asking for a few recounts...

TheWhiteRabbit

MarkHopkins said:

Pulpstar said:

Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html

Perhaps Trump should start asking for a few recounts...

I realise that is not an entirely serious suggestion, but Trump's was by far the most efficient vote, there were several narrow wins and few if any narrow defeats.

Sandpit

logical_song said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.

The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add 10% duty and VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

Still double the price of a Focus or Golf though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3

Anorak

The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894 was mentioned on the last thread. This was a thing of which I had not heard. As ever, Google was my friend.

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/

"Horse carcasses therefore also had to be removed from the streets. The bodies were often left to putrefy so the corpses could be more easily sawn into pieces for removal." - thank goodness for Henry Ford.

williamglenn

dr_spyn said:

Cobyn and others will only be happy if consumers have the E-Trabant available.

The plan is probably to get Theresa May to give a bribe to Tesla to build a factory here, and then nationalise it once they gain power.

tyson

O/T so early......it is a given that Corbyn is a loser whichever way you look at it.

What do Trump and May have in common? I think both are finding the reality of being a leader much worse than their fantasy. Sore winners who cannot take criticism.

As much as I don't like the British public school system, it trains people for the rigours of political leadership, thickens the skin so so speak... Cameron, Blair, Johnson, Osborne and even Farage.

Despite Cameron being an unmitigated disaster delivering us the chaos of Brexit, and saddling Europe with a lawless Libya...his 2 defining policies....I miss his sunny personality.

kjh

PlatoSaid said:

Patrick said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!

Labour are as relevant as the Lib Dems right now. I don't even think of what they'd say.

This isn't good for democracy, but we are where we are. And it's all self inflicted via EdM

I was a very regular poster in the very early days of PB, but sadly through time commitments became a lurker, with a few aborted attempts to come back.

Plato, I note you say 'I don't even think of what they say'. I also note you have said the same sort of thing a lot about various commentators, media outlets, etc recently, in particular during the US election. You refer to not even reading them now. How do you get a balanced view on things if you don't read stuff you don't agree with even if you think they are talking rubbish.

TheWhiteRabbit

Sandpit said:

logical_song said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.

The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add 10% duty and VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

Still double the price of a Focus or Golf though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3

I'm interested - if you are able to sell out 2 years in advance, is that not enough time to widen your supply chain? I know cars are more complicated than most things but that does seem like a long time.

tyson

On thread...OGH...I do like your updates on Corbyn. It seems that you view his continued leadership with even more incredulity and horror by the day.....

Pulpstar

rcs1000 said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's almost like he wants to lose the Sunderland seats.

Sunderland Central

Target 136, ~ 13.4% swing needed for the Tories, ~ 15.6% for UKIP.

The split opposition will probably save Labour here.

dr_spyn

MikeSmithson said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

Don't mention diesel powered trains coming into London, or diesel engines on boats on The Thames. How many diesel ambulances, fire engines, police cars, delivery vehicles are there in use in London?

JosiasJessop

Sandpit said:

logical_song said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.

The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3

Still got a heck of a long way to go from the Tesla 3 starting price of ~£24,000 before they reach the prices of the majority best-selling cars in the UK. And subsidies should not be removed, as they are still a cost.

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/recommended/best-selling-cars

david_herdson

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Strictly speaking, that's not true. All the leaders pre-1918 engaged in electoral pacts with the Liberals, where Labour was the junior partner and contested a relatively small number of seats. Labour sought to exercise power by influencing the Liberals via their parliamentary delegation (particularly when the Libs didn't have an overall majority, as after 1910), and by influencing the political debate by raising issues they cared about. But they didn't adopt winning elections outright as a strategy until the back end of WWI, when the Liberals were (1) hopelessly split and (2) in coalition with the Conservatives.

Floater

Xmas joke I heard on planet rock.

What's different about xmas dinner post Brexit?



No Brussels.................

JosiasJessop

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.

Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.

dr_spyn

St. Nicola's big issue.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon/nicola-sturgeon-tempted-to-let-snp-candidates-stand-in-england-1-4316088

david_herdson

On topic, what we really need to see is a contest in a close Con/Lab seat. Batley would have been fascinating had the Tories contested it, as they should have done.

Labour's performance has been poor (and says something about their ground game as well as their strategy) but only in years like 1995 might they have been in with a genuine chance of winning Sleaford or Witney. They should, however, have (1) stayed in second, (2) increased their vote share and (3) cut the Tory percentage lead.

Sandpit

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Sandpit said:

logical_song said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.

The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add 10% duty and VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

Still double the price of a Focus or Golf though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3

I'm interested - if you are able to sell out 2 years in advance, is that not enough time to widen your supply chain? I know cars are more complicated than most things but that does seem like a long time.

The problem is the batteries, and the company are opening a new state of the art 'Gigafactory' next year in Nevada, to produce them for the 3. Very new tech, and massive investment, but if it works it will be a huge game-changer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1

Ask Samsung (and Boeing) what happens if you rush out mass-production of new technology batteries without sufficient testing!

Floater

MikeSmithson said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

I hope he is more successful with that one then some of his other pledges.

*cough* trees *cough* (for example)

TheScreamingEagles

david_herdson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Strictly speaking, that's not true. All the leaders pre-1918 engaged in electoral pacts with the Liberals, where Labour was the junior partner and contested a relatively small number of seats. Labour sought to exercise power by influencing the Liberals via their parliamentary delegation (particularly when the Libs didn't have an overall majority, as after 1910), and by influencing the political debate by raising issues they cared about. But they didn't adopt winning elections outright as a strategy until the back end of WWI, when the Liberals were (1) hopelessly split and (2) in coalition with the Conservatives.

Yeah loose on my part, I should have said, every leader since Keir Hardie wanted to see Labour in government somehow?

HYUFD

SandyRentool said:

On percentage change, May's Tories doing far worse than Jezza's Labour!

Only if you include Richmond Park where no official Tory stood

JosiasJessop

MikeSmithson said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

I can understand that, but I'm not sure how consumers are supposed to react to this new war on diesel, given just a few years ago they were being given incentives to buy them!

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?

Floater

logical_song said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Could it be that he spends the next two years getting such a grip on the party that the moderates can't take it back, then steps down just before the election so a more electable left winger can beat a by then unpopular May?
Nah.

/the shadow chancellor perchance?

oh god, let them try that one

Floater

Morris_Dancer said:

That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

nah, the scale looks about right :-)

Pulpstar

JosiasJessop said:

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.

Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.

I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...

Jonathan

What happens if you put the London mayoral election in there.

Scott_P

JosiasJessop said:

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?

When they start hitting pedestrians who can't hear them coming

Floater

Dura_Ace said:

Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

Street protests and strikes will be the new elections.

Voters just have false consciousness, best not to worry about them.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Jessop, indeed. People will be very pissed off having been encouraged to buy diesels that they're now seen as horrendous.

Mr. Herdson, I agree the Conservatives should have contested the seat but given the circumstances it would've likely still been nailed on for Labour.

Dr. Spyn, well, more people might burn to death, but least they'll do so in an environmentally sustainable way.

Jonathan

Scott_P said:

JosiasJessop said:

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?

When they start hitting pedestrians who can't hear them coming

A silent menace. Electric cars are the future. But they are only as green as the fuel that they used to generate the electricity.

dr_spyn

JosiasJessop said:

MikeSmithson said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

I can understand that, but I'm not sure how consumers are supposed to react to this new war on diesel, given just a few years ago they were being given incentives to buy them!

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?

Greens will go berserk as large areas are mined for Lithium, and ramp up environmental costs of mining, disposal et al.

williamglenn

O/T - Navalniy has said he'll contest the Russian presidential election.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. P, there's some discussion about deliberately making noise for electric cars. Hooves clopping could be one.

Scott_P

Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

Oh, wait...

JosiasJessop

Pulpstar said:

JosiasJessop said:

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.

Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.

I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...

The lifespan of electric cars (and particularly battery life) is another significant issue.

Pulpstar

JosiasJessop said:

Pulpstar said:

JosiasJessop said:

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.

Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.

I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...

The lifespan of electric cars (and particularly battery life) is another significant issue.

Ah does it wear out ?

Can it not be changed after say 7 years or w/e ?

I mean I'll probably need to replace my clutch at 90 or 100k say..

stodge

david_herdson said:

On topic, what we really need to see is a contest in a close Con/Lab seat. Batley would have been fascinating had the Tories contested it, as they should have done.

Labour's performance has been poor (and says something about their ground game as well as their strategy) but only in years like 1995 might they have been in with a genuine chance of winning Sleaford or Witney. They should, however, have (1) stayed in second, (2) increased their vote share and (3) cut the Tory percentage lead.

Not sure I wholly agree. Richmond was always going to be a Zac/LD marginal and the Labour vote was going to be squeezed so we can put that to one side.

Both Witney and S&NH survived the 1997 bloodbath so it would be a tall order for any party to take the seat even in a by election from the Conservatives. In Witney, Labour had always been second (except in 2010) but not far ahead of the LDs and the fact the LDs moved up to second isn't wholly surprising.

As for S&NH, there were in effect four groups scrapping for the anti-Conservative vote (including the Lincs Independents). Even in 1997, Labour were 10% down if memory serves but I do agree they should have done better - it was a good result for the Conservatives but had there been a clear challenger with momentum it might have been different.

I also agree the other parties should have stood candidates in Batley. Labour and the LDs stood candidates after Ian Gow was murdered by the IRA and while Jo Cox's death was no less tragic, I don't agree democracy is somehow served by not supporting the democratic process and encouraging the strongest plurality of candidates.

Jonathan

There is a Tesla operating as a standard Taxi cab in Berlin. Whilst not perfect the torque was unbelievable. Killed all cynicism I had. The fossil fuel cars we passed might has well been horses and carts.

Sandpit

Scott_P said:

Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

Oh, wait...

So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back.

Scott_P

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. P, there's some discussion about deliberately making noise for electric cars. Hooves clopping could be one.

There was some interesting research some years ago about the noises emergency vehicles make. Sirens are notoriously difficult to pinpoint directionally. So they experimented with farting noises, which are much better

williamglenn

Delivery of Kool Aid for Mr Jessop...

Scott_P

Paging Southam...

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/808567440036810752

dr_spyn

This article was amended on 9 December 2016 to clarify that there is almost no capacity to store solar and wind-generated electricity to use later.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/08/electric-car-emissions-climate-change

CarlottaVance

dr_spyn said:

St. Nicola's big issue.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon/nicola-sturgeon-tempted-to-let-snp-candidates-stand-in-england-1-4316088

I think it would be fair to say the comments in general are not supportive......

TheScreamingEagles

Bless,

Yaya Toure has apologised for his drink driving conviction, stating that he 'unintentionally consumed alcohol'.

dr_spyn

This study on EV by Aberdeen Uni is interesting.

https://www.theccc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/CCC-EV-pathways_FINAL-REPORT_17-12-13-Final.pdf

Jonathan

In the era of electric, driverless cars will trains still be a thing?

philiph

Sandpit said:

Scott_P said:

Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

Oh, wait...

So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back.

That is easy for the range of several on the market now.

JosiasJessop

Pulpstar said:

JosiasJessop said:

Pulpstar said:

JosiasJessop said:

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.

Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.

I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...

The lifespan of electric cars (and particularly battery life) is another significant issue.

Ah does it wear out ?

Can it not be changed after say 7 years or w/e ?

I mean I'll probably need to replace my clutch at 90 or 100k say..

Batteries have a certain number of charge/discharge cycles before their capacity rapiddly decreases; annoyingly, usage patterns can significantly alter them (software often limits the way devices are charged to compensate, by (say) preventing full discharge). They are also very temperature sensitive.

Basically: if you get a petrol or diesel car you can expect the same range for the majority of its lifespan. With electric cars, the batteries start to degrade immediately, although at a low initial rate if used properly.

rottenborough

Scott_P said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. P, there's some discussion about deliberately making noise for electric cars. Hooves clopping could be one.

There was some interesting research some years ago about the noises emergency vehicles make. Sirens are notoriously difficult to pinpoint directionally. So they experimented with farting noises, which are much better

I prefer the French sirens. No idea if they are easier to detect, but easier on my ears.

Sandpit

Jonathan said:

There is a Tesla operating as a standard Taxi cab in Berlin. Whilst not perfect the torque was unbelievable. Killed all cynicism I had. The fossil fuel cars we passed might has well been horses and carts.

The $120k P100D version of the Tesla Model S is an extraordinary car for acceleration. With four wheel drive it gets from 0-60mph in under three seconds, which eats most petrol-powered supercars.

Here is the old P85D model just losing a best-of-3 drag race against a $300k McLaren 650s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssSdA77GMU

Jonathan

What ringtone have to downloaded for your car?

Hertsmere_Pubgoer

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

VHS and Betamax?

Scott_P

Jonathan said:

What ringtone have to downloaded for your car?

Like

AlastairMeeks

The Conservatives have proved vulnerable in by-elections in the prosperous south. Treating Zac Goldsmith as a Conservative (which seems reasonable given how many Conservative MPs campaigned for him), both Richmond Park and Witney showed massive swings against the blue team.

Sleaford & North Hykeham tells a very different story of a rural England that so far is content with the government. The country seems to be breaking up regionally in response to Brexit.

In none of these places was Labour the alternative to the government. It has become irrelevant.

Toms

Dura_Ace said:

Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

Nice name there Dura_Ace.

I expect there must be (at least) two fables: one about how how someone who never gives up, loses, and another about how someone who is too thick to quit, wins.

Sandpit

philiph said:

Sandpit said:

Scott_P said:

Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

Oh, wait...

So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back.

That is easy for the range of several on the market now.

Most of them can do 150 miles yes, but that's not the same as getting from London to Brighton and back, including slow traffic, heating or a/c as appropriate etc. The Tesla Model S could do it, but not anything cheaper without a very nervous driver for the last few miles.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/agnes_guano/status/808613841609302016

david_herdson

Sandpit said:

FPT, for @David_Herdson

I double checked sources for UK govt fuel duty receipts and the accepted 15/16 figure is 27.6bn - 5% of total govt receipts.

Also add 5.5bn for VED revenue, for which electric cars are exempt.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/

Ah, ok. I misread and was thinking of VED (which would have made the quoted figure about an order of magnitude out, had that been what it related to).

Still, the answer, as always, to your original question - how to replace the loss of fuel duty - remains "tax something else".

rottenborough

stodge said:

david_herdson said:

On topic, what we really need to see is a contest in a close Con/Lab seat. Batley would have been fascinating had the Tories contested it, as they should have done.

Labour's performance has been poor (and says something about their ground game as well as their strategy) but only in years like 1995 might they have been in with a genuine chance of winning Sleaford or Witney. They should, however, have (1) stayed in second, (2) increased their vote share and (3) cut the Tory percentage lead.

Not sure I wholly agree. Richmond was always going to be a Zac/LD marginal and the Labour vote was going to be squeezed so we can put that to one side.

Both Witney and S&NH survived the 1997 bloodbath so it would be a tall order for any party to take the seat even in a by election from the Conservatives. In Witney, Labour had always been second (except in 2010) but not far ahead of the LDs and the fact the LDs moved up to second isn't wholly surprising.

As for S&NH, there were in effect four groups scrapping for the anti-Conservative vote (including the Lincs Independents). Even in 1997, Labour were 10% down if memory serves but I do agree they should have done better - it was a good result for the Conservatives but had there been a clear challenger with momentum it might have been different.

I also agree the other parties should have stood candidates in Batley. Labour and the LDs stood candidates after Ian Gow was murdered by the IRA and while Jo Cox's death was no less tragic, I don't agree democracy is somehow served by not supporting the democratic process and encouraging the strongest plurality of candidates.

I think what we need are a couple of Northern Labour seats. Leigh will be one. Unless there is some kind of miracle and both Corbyn and McD retire from politics and the membership awaken from their dreaming it is clear there will be no swing from Con to Lab in GE, indeed, likely to be a few % the other way on current polling.

We need some indication of whether the UKIP Northern attack has any legs.

If it does we can start to think, as betting folks, of a pincer movement and a Labour wipeout on a scale not seen before.

JosiasJessop

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

VHS and Betamax?

That was a competition between two new technologies. I'm talking about a replacement; as if DVDs had been the dominant tech for a decade and was then replaced with VHS.

PlatoSaid

kjh said:

PlatoSaid said:

Patrick said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!

Labour are as relevant as the Lib Dems right now. I don't even think of what they'd say.

This isn't good for democracy, but we are where we are. And it's all self inflicted via EdM

I was a very regular poster in the very early days of PB, but sadly through time commitments became a lurker, with a few aborted attempts to come back.

Plato, I note you say 'I don't even think of what they say'. I also note you have said the same sort of thing a lot about various commentators, media outlets, etc recently, in particular during the US election. You refer to not even reading them now. How do you get a balanced view on things if you don't read stuff you don't agree with even if you think they are talking rubbish.

I pay a lot of attention to a wide range of views from activists across the spectrum - they point me to all sorts of stuff/opinions that I try to understand - even when I want to *close tab*. That's why I was pushing Trump - the MSM didn't want to listen/was riddled with confirmation bias that Average Person saw too.

Trust is rock bottom - and without brand trust, what is the value of NBC et al?

The MSM are still shooting themselves with the #fakenews meme. In their attempt to shutdown alternative views - they've managed to create their own version of McCarthyism, and stupidly Streisanded every *fake news* scandal they've pushed.

Re research - it takes a bit of effort - or in the case of Trump, hundreds of hours of watching cable news/reading tweets/blogs/YouTube over several months. I used to work in PR because I've an instinct for which way the wind is blowing - whether it's left or right or something else. I like learning and understanding how people think, and how 50% of us believe the other 50% are wrong.

Jonathan Haidt on TED is well worth watching on moral psychology.

Toms

Sandpit said:

philiph said:

Sandpit said:

Scott_P said:

Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

Oh, wait...

So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back.

That is easy for the range of several on the market now.

Most of them can do 150 miles yes, but that's not the same as getting from London to Brighton and back, including slow traffic, heating or a/c as appropriate etc. The Tesla Model S could do it, but not anything cheaper without a very nervous driver for the last few miles.

I have found that a seasoned pair of legs and a well appointed bicycle can be good for one day distances of up to 250 miles. Food, lots of it, provides the fuel. You can carry it with you if desired.

MarqueeMark

TheWhiteRabbit said:

MarkHopkins said:

Pulpstar said:

Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html

Perhaps Trump should start asking for a few recounts...

I realise that is not an entirely serious suggestion, but Trump's was by far the most efficient vote, there were several narrow wins and few if any narrow defeats.

Them Russkies sure know how to rig a vote.....

david_herdson

Morris_Dancer said:

[snip]

Mr. Herdson, I agree the Conservatives should have contested the seat but given the circumstances it would've likely still been nailed on for Labour.

[snip 2]

Eastleigh wasn't for the Tories in 1990. I suspect it'd have been a Lab hold but with the right Con campaign - focussed on (1) the candidate and (2) the government's achievements, and not going negative on Labour - it could have been close.

JosiasJessop

Sandpit said:

philiph said:

Sandpit said:

Scott_P said:

Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

Oh, wait...

So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back.

That is easy for the range of several on the market now.

Most of them can do 150 miles yes, but that's not the same as getting from London to Brighton and back, including slow traffic, heating or a/c as appropriate etc. The Tesla Model S could do it, but not anything cheaper without a very nervous driver for the last few miles.

It's easy to get 300 miles out of our Jazz, and 600 out of our Passat.

There are other issues, such as how people with on-street parking charge their cars.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, that's rather good.

williamglenn

JosiasJessop said:

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

VHS and Betamax?

That was a competition between two new technologies. I'm talking about a replacement; as if DVDs had been the dominant tech for a decade and was then replaced with VHS.

The initial smartphones were inferior at the function of being a mobile telephone but they still put Nokia out of business.

Carolus_Rex

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

VHS and Betamax?

Early firearms and the longbow?

dr_spyn

TheScreamingEagles said:

Bless,

Yaya Toure has apologised for his drink driving conviction, stating that he 'unintentionally consumed alcohol'.

Did he have a very heavy cold.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2934092/Night-Nurse-limit-New-drug-driving-laws-mean-drivers-face-ban-counter-medicines-make-drowsy.html

MaxPB

TheScreamingEagles said:

Bless,

Yaya Toure has apologised for his drink driving conviction, stating that he 'unintentionally consumed alcohol'.

That's what I used to tell my parents!

AlastairMeeks

https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/808616624613978112

tpfkar

Mike Smithson said:

So this period since October when we’ve had Witney, Richmond Park, and Sleaford + Hykehem N is really quite unique.

Welcome to North Hykeham. Most mis-spelled by-election location in a generation. Is it famous for anything else?

Morris_Dancer said:

That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

Are you kidding? Axes starting at zero, proportional bars, equally spaced - you call that a bar chart?

Morris_Dancer

Inflation at two year high:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38300919

Or "barely half the desired rate". We should take note of the direction of travel, but it's hardly astronomical.

JosiasJessop

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

JosiasJessop said:

GIN1138 said:

Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

VHS and Betamax?

That was a competition between two new technologies. I'm talking about a replacement; as if DVDs had been the dominant tech for a decade and was then replaced with VHS.

The initial smartphones were inferior at the function of being a mobile telephone but they still put Nokia out of business.

The initial ones were inferior - including ones by Nokia AFAICR. It was the iPhone that made the other functions worthwhile over the slight loss in telephony function (e.g. battery life). Mainly as telephony became very much a subsidiary function.

But yes, that's a good answer to the question posed.

rottenborough

I have just topped up by bets on Clive Lewis being next Labour leader. Currently on BF he is just ahead of Starmer as the two favourites.