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Daily Mail

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foxinsoxuk

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what does cracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

tlg86

Second like Liverpool

MaxPB

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

murali_s

Terrible news and relieved to hear that family who are in Berlin are safe.

Speedy

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what does cracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

What we may be doing in the streets of Britain may be enough.
Looking after our own country has worked better than Germany's approach.

williamglenn

foxinsoxuk said:

But what does cracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

We could stop trying to overthrow secular strongmen for a start. From a CIA agent who interrogated Saddam Hussein after he was captured:

"Saddam had actually believed 9/11 would bring Iraq and America closer because Washington would need his secular government to help fight fundamentalism."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4044216/CIA-agent-grilled-Saddam-Hussein-says-thought-knew-man-WRONG.html

HaroldO

Something about a Swiss mosque now? Or have I misread?

weejonnie

There are far more 40-ton lorries in Europe than 747 aircraft. They can go virtually anywhere and are unstoppable. This could be a serious new development.

isam

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

Scott_P

Dated 1 month ago

The US has warned its citizens that Europe is facing a “heightened risk of terror attacks” at Christmas markets and other seasonal holiday events.

The US State Department said it had “credible information” that Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) and al-Qaeda were planning attacks and focusing on the “upcoming holiday season”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/22/us-warns-heightened-risk-terror-attacks-christmas-markets-europe/

I saw the concrete bollards in Birmingham last week and never gave them a second thought

DavidL

Taking up the point made by @Speedy it is remarkable how long we have managed to avoid this carnage. 11.5 years since the 7/7 bombings. Almost endless arrests and convictions and only poor Lee Rigby killed by two of these nutters.

Our security services deserve enormous praise and thanks. Every time I have reservations about another slightly dodgy Bill from the government about internet security I remember what they have achieved. It is remarkable and the first job of any government is to keep its people safe. If anyone from GCHQ is reading, thank you.

Cyclefree

FPT: The terrorists of 7/7 were the children of immigrants. Nice was committed by an immigrant. Bataclan and Hebdo were committed by the children of immigrants. That is one of the hard but uncomfortable facts: you may well invite in immigrants who seem to integrate and then find that the next generation does not and succumbs to extremist winds which blow in from their parents' homelands or from the epicenter of their religion/culture. So the authorities need to ask: if this is a risk - more than a theoretical risk - as France and other countries have shown, does it make sense to permit further (large scale) immigration from those groups most likely to be at risk of extremism?

In deciding whom to let into a country, surely one of the first questions the state should be considering is whether this puts the existing population in that country (the primary concern of any government) at risk of harm.

Black_Rook

It is a tribute to our security services that we've gone over a decade in the UK without a mass casualty attack. But I am afraid that it can't last forever.

Cyclefree

Speedy said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what does cracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

What we may be doing in the streets of Britain may be enough.
Looking after our own country has worked better than Germany's approach.

This is what I said on the previous thread.


I think far more could be done to confront the ideology which animates Islamists. Liberal values are better and we should say so and show how evil and horrible their world view is. When there were problems with the BNP and similar Nazi/fascist style groups in the 1970's, we had the Anti-Nazi movements and there was a vigorous - and largely successful - attempt to confront those who showed a penchant for fascism. We don't do anything like the same in relation to those who show a penchant for the Islamist version. Rather, we (or some of us, at any rate) are far too willing to explain it away or excuse it or justify it. If we do not provide a better belief system, a better account, a better story, if we do not say that what these people think and believe and do is wrong and repulsive, we can hardly be surprised if it attracts enough support to be a thorough nuisance or worse.

Yes, intelligence and prosecutions and a sensible immigration policy are essential. But bad ideas, bad ideologies are defeated by good ideas. We should have much more confidence in our virtues and values and ideas and stand up for them and promulgate them. Western Enlightenment values and what they have brought are good and better than the alternatives. Islamist thought is not good; it is horrible and dark and brings evil. in its wake. We should not appease it. We should shun it and fight it and stop it spreading its tentacles amongst our Muslim young. They are our young too and I don't want them succumbing to something which will destroy them as much as it will destroy us.

wasd

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

MaxPB

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

Not impossible, it just needs some hard decisions and tough action. Make it impossible to be a hardline Islamist in this country. Eventually they will leave of the own volition and those who don't will have more secular tendencies. I would also, as an emergency measure, put all mosques in the UK into special measures and close them. Reopen them one by one after every single employee and associated person undergoes top level intelligence vetting. Any mosque which is found to have terror or extremist links should be closed for good and the people who run it deported where possible and jailed otherwise.

Not an easy course of action by I think it's time for this country to call time on this experiment of importing millions of Muslims.

foxinsoxuk

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

Gardenwalker

Also FPT (in response to @Cyclefree)

I agree with you very strongly, then.

I fear we in the West have lost our ability to justify and defend our way of life. Why liberal democracy? Why freedom of speech? Why rule of law?

If we cannot defend it, we will lose it. If not to Islamist, then to others.

isam

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

edmundintokyo

@DavidL Terrorism doesn't happen very often. Sometimes you'll get a long streak without it by chance.

Gardenwalker

MaxPB said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

Not impossible, it just needs some hard decisions and tough action. Make it impossible to be a hardline Islamist in this country. Eventually they will leave of the own volition and those who don't will have more secular tendencies. I would also, as an emergency measure, put all mosques in the UK into special measures and close them. Reopen them one by one after every single employee and associated person undergoes top level intelligence vetting. Any mosque which is found to have terror or extremist links should be closed for good and the people who run it deported where possible and jailed otherwise.

Not an easy course of action by I think it's time for this country to call time on this experiment of importing millions of Muslims.

Trumpian hyperbole.

MaxPB

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

isam

MaxPB said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

Not impossible, it just needs some hard decisions and tough action. Make it impossible to be a hardline Islamist in this country. Eventually they will leave of the own volition and those who don't will have more secular tendencies. I would also, as an emergency measure, put all mosques in the UK into special measures and close them. Reopen them one by one after every single employee and associated person undergoes top level intelligence vetting. Any mosque which is found to have terror or extremist links should be closed for good and the people who run it deported where possible and jailed otherwise.

Not an easy course of action by I think it's time for this country to call time on this experiment of importing millions of Muslims.

We see daily examples of people refusing to accept they called anything wrong. Politicians are no different from their fans. They will never do what you say because it will mean their whole careers have been founded on a misjudgement, they'd rather people die.

Gardenwalker

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

foxinsoxuk

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

Global warming and failed states are hardly a recipe for peace! on the contrary there would be a refugee crises that makes 2015 look like a picnic.

DavidL

edmundintokyo said:

@DavidL Terrorism doesn't happen very often. Sometimes you'll get a long streak without it by chance.

Try telling the Germans that, or the French or the Belgians. Given our less than wise policies in the middle east in the early years of this century we should be a clearer target than any of these countries and yet we have gone more than a decade without this kind of insanity. We may well have been lucky but we have also been good.

foxinsoxuk

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

RoyalBlue

isam said:

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

Numbers please.

MP_SE

viewcode said:

MP_SE said:

...Blade Runner was a masterpiece. Apparently Dark City is of a similar style. I am saving it for this weekend when I can finally put my feet up.

Dark City is perhaps overrated: its plot (without giving away spoilers) was explored in other 90's movies and was a bit of a cliche (you'll know which one when you see it)

I shall approach it with an open mind. From what I have read the plot doesn't look anywhere near as interesting as Blade Runner.

I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

Y0kel

I think people who seek to debate the issue of Syrian refugees coming to Europe forget one straight fact.

Jihadists have used that refugee flood to get their own operators into Western Europe.

MaxPB

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

DavidL

MP_SE said:

viewcode said:

MP_SE said:

...Blade Runner was a masterpiece. Apparently Dark City is of a similar style. I am saving it for this weekend when I can finally put my feet up.

Dark City is perhaps overrated: its plot (without giving away spoilers) was explored in other 90's movies and was a bit of a cliche (you'll know which one when you see it)

I shall approach it with an open mind. From what I have read the plot doesn't look anywhere near as interesting as Blade Runner.

I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

The Dune film was no better than ok but the book, oh the book. I noticed that they had a 50 year edition out for Christmas. I am tempted to add to my copies. It is simply brilliant and has not dated at all in all that time.

MaxPB

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

foxinsoxuk

RoyalBlue said:

isam said:

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

Numbers please.

About 5% of the British population are Muslim, of whom around half are irreligious. 12.5% of Londoners are Muslim.

Worth noting that both the Rigby killers were of African Christian background, who converted to Islam. Should we kick out all Africans to be on the safe side?

MaxPB

foxinsoxuk said:

RoyalBlue said:

isam said:

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

Numbers please.

About 5% of the British population are Muslim, of whom around half are irreligious. 12.5% of Londoners are Muslim.

Worth noting that both the Rigby killers were of African Christian background, who converted to Islam. Should we kick out all Africans to be on the safe side?

No, just make it tough to convert in the first place. If they do want to live by Islamic ideals then they will have to migrate to a nation that allows it.

another_richard

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

There's not much point to doing that unless governments (and public services) are willing to uphold the law.

How willing have they been to uphold the law on for example FGM.

Cyclefree

Gardenwalker said:

Also FPT (in response to @Cyclefree)

I agree with you very strongly, then.

I fear we in the West have lost our ability to justify and defend our way of life. Why liberal democracy? Why freedom of speech? Why rule of law?

If we cannot defend it, we will lose it. If not to Islamist, then to others.

Yes - that Cato article I referred to earlier today makes very similar points. . https://www.cato.org/policy-report/novemberdecember-2016/new-old-challenge-global-anti-libertarianism

MTimT

@ williamglenn "Saddam had actually believed 9/11 would bring Iraq and America closer because Washington would need his secular government to help fight fundamentalism."

Saddam said an awful lot of things.

I have had the privilege of access to the Saddam Tapes, seized after the fall of Baghdad - his Nixon-like recordings of all his important policy discussions with his inner cabal - and now archived at the Conflict Records Research Center of the National Defense University at the Navy Yards in DC.

Saddam mused about many things. Taking one issue like this out of context of all the rest, I could probably find a quote from Saddam for most things. But lest we fail to remember that, we should definitely remember that it was Saddam who added the words "Alahu akbar' to the Iraqi flag. This man was absolutely ready to use religion for his purposes at the drop of a hat. What he might have mused about US-Iraqi relations on one day would, and did, change regularly.

So the idea that there was some sort of missed opportunity to have good relations with him is spurious to say the least.

MaxPB

another_richard said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

There's not much point to doing that unless governments (and public services) are willing to uphold the law.

How willing have they been to uphold the law on for example FGM.

The "tough action" part of it.

RoyalBlue

foxinsoxuk said:

RoyalBlue said:

isam said:

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

Numbers please.

About 5% of the British population are Muslim, of whom around half are irreligious. 12.5% of Londoners are Muslim.

Worth noting that both the Rigby killers were of African Christian background, who converted to Islam. Should we kick out all Africans to be on the safe side?

I more interested in the claim that 'On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two'. I don't see how that's demographically possible.

Y0kel

Who'd want to work for the Russian Foreign Office.

A head of department has been shot dead in his apartment in Moscow. Circumstance unclear.

glw

DavidL said:

Taking up the point made by @Speedy it is remarkable how long we have managed to avoid this carnage. 11.5 years since the 7/7 bombings. Almost endless arrests and convictions and only poor Lee Rigby killed by two of these nutters.

Our security services deserve enormous praise and thanks. Every time I have reservations about another slightly dodgy Bill from the government about internet security I remember what they have achieved. It is remarkable and the first job of any government is to keep its people safe. If anyone from GCHQ is reading, thank you.

Of course they are "reading" you mentioned "7/7", "bombings", "Lee Rigby", "security services" and "GCHQ".

TOPPING

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

nunu

Let us just thank Cameron for not letting many thousands of Syrian refugees from Europe. One thing he did right.

Mr Max PB stopping people from changing their religion is not at all in line British values, I hope we never go down that route. People should be freely allowed to change their religion freely including leaving Islam.

DavidL

glw said:

DavidL said:

Taking up the point made by @Speedy it is remarkable how long we have managed to avoid this carnage. 11.5 years since the 7/7 bombings. Almost endless arrests and convictions and only poor Lee Rigby killed by two of these nutters.

Our security services deserve enormous praise and thanks. Every time I have reservations about another slightly dodgy Bill from the government about internet security I remember what they have achieved. It is remarkable and the first job of any government is to keep its people safe. If anyone from GCHQ is reading, thank you.

Of course they are "reading" you mentioned "7/7", "bombings", "Lee Rigby", "security services" and "GCHQ".

LOL, that was my working assumption too.

Gardenwalker

Y0kel said:

Who'd want to work for the Russian Foreign Office.

A head of department has been shot dead in his apartment in Moscow. Circumstance unclear.

Our new bosom buddies, don'tcha know!

Seriously, how long will the UK maintain an anti-Russian foreign policy if the US pivots?

The EU is hardly a bulwark of anti-Russianism and is very divided. And Fillon looks to be softening the French position.

foxinsoxuk

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

The Burka ban in France works well that way doesn't it? And in France Halal food is banned in public places like prisons.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/france-suspends-plans-halal-prison-meals-2014716132046460534.html

No problem with Islamists there is there?

matt

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

If they hold local passports, where do you propose deporting them to?

williamglenn

MTimT said:

But lest we fail to remember that, we should definitely remember that it was Saddam who added the words "Alahu akbar' to the Iraqi flag. This man was absolutely ready to use religion for his purposes at the drop of a hat. What he might have mused about US-Iraqi relations on one day would, and did, change regularly.

So the idea that there was some sort of missed opportunity to have good relations with him is spurious to say the least.

Good relations shouldn't have been the aim, but we should have had the wisdom to realise that we would make things worse for us by getting rid of him.

As for the flag, is adding 'Dieu et mon droit' to the Royal coat of arms an example of misusing religion?

MaxPB

nunu said:

Let us just thank Cameron for not letting many thousands of Syrian refugees from Europe. One thing he did right.

Mr Max PB stopping people from changing their religion is not at all in line British values, I hope we never go down that route. People should be freely allowed to change their religion freely including leaving Islam.

They are freely allowed to change, just do it in a country which accepts Islamic cultural and religious values.

JWisemann

The UK government dropping its long term alliance with international salafism would be a good start. This is a product of extremist wahabism, as promoted by May's bezzie mates in Saudi (and our genocidal jihadi allies that just got kicked out of Aleppo), not Islam in general.

Gardenwalker

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

What evidence do you have that it would work?

As abhorrent as I find the burqa, banning it seems to me fundamentally unBritish. And in any case, it seems more likely to incite terrorism than quell it. Haven't they already banned it in France? Doesn't seem to have helped.

MP_SE

DavidL said:

MP_SE said:

viewcode said:

MP_SE said:

...Blade Runner was a masterpiece. Apparently Dark City is of a similar style. I am saving it for this weekend when I can finally put my feet up.

Dark City is perhaps overrated: its plot (without giving away spoilers) was explored in other 90's movies and was a bit of a cliche (you'll know which one when you see it)

I shall approach it with an open mind. From what I have read the plot doesn't look anywhere near as interesting as Blade Runner.

I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

The Dune film was no better than ok but the book, oh the book. I noticed that they had a 50 year edition out for Christmas. I am tempted to add to my copies. It is simply brilliant and has not dated at all in all that time.

I have heard so many people say the book is amazing and miles better than the film. Quite remarkable that the book was published back in the 60s.

Cyclefree

One quote from the above article will suffice -

"Unfortunately, the best argument that the defenders of civil society typically offer in response to those challenges is that the complex of personal liberty, the rule of law, and free markets creates more prosperity and a more commodious life than the alternatives. That’s true, but it’s not enough to deflect the damaging blows of the illiberal triumvirate of identity politics, authoritarian populism, and radical Islamism. The moral goodness of liberty needs to be upheld, not only in head-to-head encounters with adversaries, but as a means of stiffening the resistance of classical liberals, lest they continue retreating. Freedom is not an illusion, but a great and noble goal. A life of freedom is better in every respect than a life of submission to others. "

The moral goodness of liberty. That's what we need to fight for.

"It’s time for advocates of liberty to realize that some people reject liberty for others (and even for themselves) not merely because they don’t understand economics or because they will realize material benefits from undermining the rule of law, but because they oppose the principles and the practice of liberty. They don’t seek equality before the law; they reject it and prefer politics based on unequal identities. They don’t believe in your right to disagree with them and they certainly won’t defend your right to do so. They consider trade a plot of some sort. And they prefer a politics of will to one of processes. They will attack anyone for offending their sacred identities. They do not want to “live and let live.”"

Some groups - and Islamists are one example - prefer identity politics, the identity of being a "Muslim" above anything else and authoritarianism. Our failure to realize this has led us to underestimate for too long the threat we face from such ideas, especially when they take root amongst the young.

That is why we have to win - at least in our own countries - the battle of ideas.

JWisemann

(As an aside, the bizarre borderline neonazi histrionics from some of the people on here are hilariously embarrassing)

Cyclefree

JWisemann said:

The UK government dropping its long term alliance with international salafism would be a good start. This is a product of extremist wahabism, as promoted by May's bezzie mates in Saudi (and our genocidal jihadi allies that just got kicked out of Aleppo), not Islam in general.

Most mosques in Britain have links with Deobandi Islam which is prevalent in Pakistan. Equally hardline. Perhaps we should not be such bezzie mates with Pakistan, eh!

MTimT

From the Mail article on the book on Saddam, Saddam's rhetorical question "Who would use these weapons when they had not been used against us?"

Well, the answer to that is Saddam. He used them without provocation against his own people, the Kurds, in Halabja and on many other occasions, and in a first-use manner against the Iranians, again on many occasions, culminating in massive use during the al Fao campaign and on the Majnoon Islands. He is caught on the Saddam Tapes discussing when and how to use his 'special weapons' many times.

Given that Saddam was so palpably misleading in that question, why was this CIA agent so credulous of Saddam's other utterings?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4044216/CIA-agent-grilled-Saddam-Hussein-says-thought-knew-man-WRONG.html

MaxPB

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

I honestly don't care what the terrorists want and I also don't care about white liberal sensibilities. We need to look after number one, and that means cracking down on Islamists and hard line Islam in the country until it is no longer tolerated by the state. Eventually those who want to live by those ideals they will move on to countries which accept them. Those Muslims who accept secular life at much more likely to be integrated and live by our values of equality and rule of law.

glw

DavidL said:

Most mosques in Britain have links with Deobandi Islam which is prevalent in Pakistan. Equally hardline. Perhaps we should not be such bezzie mates with Pakistan, eh!

Pakistan is second to only Saudi Arabia in the sponsoring of Jihadis.

john_zims

@Gardenwalker


'Trumpian hyperbole.'


Could it be any worse than what Merkel has dumped on us ?

Cyclefree

JWisemann said:

(As an aside, the bizarre borderline neonazi histrionics from some of the people on here are hilariously embarrassing)

What's embarrassing is your failure to realize that Islamism has rather more links with Nazism than those whom you're accusing of neonazi histrionics. You might like to read Paul Berman on the subject. He has studied the subject and shows how aspects of Islamism have borrowed heavily from the Nazi propaganda of the war years in countries like Egypt and how this has seeped into the thinking behind the Islamist ideology promulgated by some of the leading Islamist thinkers.

MaxPB

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

What evidence do you have that it would work?

As abhorrent as I find the burqa, banning it seems to me fundamentally unBritish. And in any case, it seems more likely to incite terrorism than quell it. Haven't they already banned it in France? Doesn't seem to have helped.

None. But what we're doing at the moment isn't working either.

Gardenwalker

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

I honestly don't care what the terrorists want and I also don't care about white liberal sensibilities. We need to look after number one, and that means cracking down on Islamists and hard line Islam in the country until it is no longer tolerated by the state. Eventually those who want to live by those ideals they will move on to countries which accept them. Those Muslims who accept secular life at much more likely to be integrated and live by our values of equality and rule of law.

It's those white liberals again!
Max, have you moved to Switzerland yet? You seem to have gone all ein folk on us.

JWisemann

Cyclefree - and how much of this recent european terrorism has been linked to Deobandi mosques, as opposed to wahabist terror groups?

Gardenwalker

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

What evidence do you have that it would work?

As abhorrent as I find the burqa, banning it seems to me fundamentally unBritish. And in any case, it seems more likely to incite terrorism than quell it. Haven't they already banned it in France? Doesn't seem to have helped.

None. But what we're doing at the moment isn't working either.

Well we just said that maybe it *is* working.
In the U.K.

JWisemann

(although perhaps the Tories should also hang their heads in shame for their part in promoting extremist Islam in Pakistan, too)

Sunil_Prasannan

@JWisemann

But Labour created Pakistan in 1947, no?

williamglenn

IMF board votes to keep Lagarde.

Gardenwalker

john_zims said:

@Gardenwalker


'Trumpian hyperbole.'


Could it be any worse than what Merkel has dumped on us ?

Merkel hasn't dumped anything on me.
Except by proxy of her shite failure to realise the implications of an open door policy to 1m Syrians to the EU debate.

Richard_Nabavi

There was a discussion on the previous thread about how the IRA terrorism of the 70s and 80s compared with the current horrors.

The answer, as yet at least, is that as far as the UK, and especially London, was concerned, the IRA attacks were much worse. For years, you were aware every single day of the risk, the disruption to everyday life was huge. I remember multiple times where we were evacuated from a theatre or tube station because of an IRA bomb alert, and there were many deadly attacks here involving loss of life: Brighton, Warrington, Birmingham, Guildford, Harrods, and many more. In Belfast and Londonderry, course, it was much worse.

For now, despite the 7/7 murders, the murder of Lee Rigby, and other atrocities, we have thankfully been relatively less affected here in the UK by Islamic terrorism, and daily life hasn't been affected anything like as badly as it was in the IRA campaign. Let's hope we can keep it like that.

As regards Europe as a whole, the picture is different, given Barcelona, Paris, Nice, Brussels, and this latest outrage in Berlin.

glw

JWisemann said:

(although perhaps the Tories should also hang their heads in shame for their part in promoting extremist Islam in Pakistan, too)

Maybe Pakistanis should "hang their heads in shame for their part in promoting extremist Islam in Pakistan" first.

TOPPING

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

I honestly don't care what the terrorists want and I also don't care about white liberal sensibilities. We need to look after number one, and that means cracking down on Islamists and hard line Islam in the country until it is no longer tolerated by the state. Eventually those who want to live by those ideals they will move on to countries which accept them. Those Muslims who accept secular life at much more likely to be integrated and live by our values of equality and rule of law.

It's wishful thinking. And, more importantly, of course impossibly impractical outside of an Internet bulletin board fantasy.

Defeating terrorists requires a counter culture hearts and minds operation. Boring and unsatisfying as it might sound to you. You starve the terrorists of support and then you have a chance of defeating them.

Give them a recruiting sergeant and you set yourself back decades.

Cyclefree

JWisemann said:

Cyclefree - and how much of this recent european terrorism has been linked to Deobandi mosques, as opposed to wahabist terror groups?

Can I suggest you look at the links between a number of the Islamist terrorists involved in the Hebdo, Bataclan and recent Belgian terror attacks and Anjem Choudhry and their trips to Britain.

MP_SE

williamglenn said:

IMF board votes to keep Lagarde.

So the IMF Is now run by a convicted criminal? Interesting.

Shame the plebs don't have it so easy.

Tykejohnno

@MaxPB They are freely allowed to change, just do it in a country which accepts Islamic cultural and religious values.

Are you sure the freely bit here,this is not far from where I live.

Man forced to flee his home after converting from Islam to Christianity

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/06/man-flees-home-after-converting-to-christianity-from-islam-leads-to-attack-6239445/

MaxPB

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

I honestly don't care what the terrorists want and I also don't care about white liberal sensibilities. We need to look after number one, and that means cracking down on Islamists and hard line Islam in the country until it is no longer tolerated by the state. Eventually those who want to live by those ideals they will move on to countries which accept them. Those Muslims who accept secular life at much more likely to be integrated and live by our values of equality and rule of law.

It's those white liberals again!
Max, have you moved to Switzerland yet? You seem to have gone all ein folk on us.

Moving in January!

It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it.

Gardenwalker

williamglenn said:

IMF board votes to keep Lagarde.

Insane.

There are questions about the political bias of the jury in this trial (which I believe was made up of MPs).

Nevertheless, you can't have an IMF lead found guilty of fraud - by negligence or otherwise.

She should resign.

HurstLlama

@MP_SE
"I have heard so many people say the book is amazing and miles better than the film. Quite remarkable that the book was published back in the 60s"

I have never seen and will never see the film, I have however read the book many times since it was first published. The book had one great thing, it never tried to explain the technology - the physics behind an ornithopter, for example, were left blank. It was just a great story brilliantly told and like a really good play on the radio it left much to the imagination of the audience.

The sequels I have never been able to get on with. In fact to be honest I have never got beyond the first fifty pages of Dune: The Messiah - the first sequel.

Tim_B

Trump way past 270 in Electoral college voting.

isam

RoyalBlue said:

isam said:

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

Numbers please.

I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

so

1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066

MaxPB

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

I honestly don't care what the terrorists want and I also don't care about white liberal sensibilities. We need to look after number one, and that means cracking down on Islamists and hard line Islam in the country until it is no longer tolerated by the state. Eventually those who want to live by those ideals they will move on to countries which accept them. Those Muslims who accept secular life at much more likely to be integrated and live by our values of equality and rule of law.

It's wishful thinking. And, more importantly, of course impossibly impractical outside of an Internet bulletin board fantasy.

Defeating terrorists requires a counter culture hearts and minds operation. Boring and unsatisfying as it might sound to you. You starve the terrorists of support and then you have a chance of defeating them.

Give them a recruiting sergeant and you set yourself back decades.

Our system has required turning the UK into a quasi police state on surveillance. Not exactly something that we should encourage or accept in the long term.

We should win who we can win and move on those who we can't.

MTimT

@ williamglenn 'Dieu et mon droit' is a part of the royal coat of arms, not the national flag, and the person whose standard it is is also the head of the church. And, yes, English and British monarchs have frequently invoked religion in war.

Saddam added it to the flag during the Iran Iraq war specifically to rebut Iranian allegations that he and Iraq were infidels and to mobilize islamic fervor to his side. So, yes, in that case it was using religion.

JWisemann

Cyclefree - do enlighten me. Anyway, it is tangential to my point which is that Uk governments (especially Tory ones) have been allied with or promoted the activities of retrograde Salafist forces - cut from the exact cloth that the European terrorists are generally, whether that be in Pakistan and Afghanistan in the eighties, libya and syria in this decade, or the worst of all, saudi arabia for the last century.

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

MP_SE said:

viewcode said:

MP_SE said:

...Blade Runner was a masterpiece. Apparently Dark City is of a similar style. I am saving it for this weekend when I can finally put my feet up.

Dark City is perhaps overrated: its plot (without giving away spoilers) was explored in other 90's movies and was a bit of a cliche (you'll know which one when you see it)

I shall approach it with an open mind. From what I have read the plot doesn't look anywhere near as interesting as Blade Runner.

I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

The Dune film was no better than ok but the book, oh the book. I noticed that they had a 50 year edition out for Christmas. I am tempted to add to my copies. It is simply brilliant and has not dated at all in all that time.

The first book is fantastic. The endless sequels, not so much.

Pulpstar

Tim_B said:

Trump way past 270 in Electoral college voting.

He's up to 304, having lost 2 electoral votes.

Meanwhile Hillary has lost 4

Richard_Nabavi

Err,

Gardenwalker said:

Nevertheless, you can't have an IMF lead found guilty of fraud - by negligence or otherwise.

She should resign.

Ms Lagarde wasn't found guilty of fraud.

And she is not, as @MP_SE seems to think, a 'convicted criminal'. The court specifically exonerated her of any criminal offence.

But I'm sure mere facts like these won't have much potency.

surbiton

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

They will just go and buy kosher meat as they used to in the UK about 50 years ago when you could not get Halal meat everywhere. Unless, of course, you ban kosher meat too............

geoffw

Richard_Nabavi said:

There was a discussion on the previous thread about how the IRA terrorism of the 70s and 80s compared with the current horrors.

The answer, as yet at least, is that as far as the UK, and especially London, was concerned, the IRA attacks were much worse. For years, you were aware every single day of the risk, the disruption to everyday life was huge. I remember multiple times where we were evacuated from a theatre or tube station because of an IRA bomb alert, and there were many deadly attacks here involving loss of life: Brighton, Warrington, Birmingham, Guildford, Harrods, and many more. In Belfast and Londonderry, course, it was much worse.

For now, despite the 7/7 murders, the murder of Lee Rigby, and other atrocities, we have thankfully been relatively less affected here in the UK by Islamic terrorism, and daily life hasn't been affected anything like as badly as it was in the IRA campaign. Let's hope we can keep it like that.

As regards Europe as a whole, the picture is different, given Barcelona, Paris, Nice, Brussels, and this latest outrage in Berlin.

Barcelona? Do you mean Madrid?

TOPPING

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How do we seperate such people?

Perhaps an Inquisition with arbitrary powers?

No need, just ban being a hardline Islamist with small measures, I've written about this before and it would work. But would surely fall foul of discrimination laws which would need to amended.

Fuck me Max I know you're angry we all are but do you not think that such measures are both impractical and counterproductive in that the ones you describe are probably close to those the terrorists hope would be enacted as a consequence of their actions?

I honestly don't care what the terrorists want and I also don't care about white liberal sensibilities. We need to look after number one, and that means cracking down on Islamists and hard line Islam in the country until it is no longer tolerated by the state. Eventually those who want to live by those ideals they will move on to countries which accept them. Those Muslims who accept secular life at much more likely to be integrated and live by our values of equality and rule of law.

It's wishful thinking. And, more importantly, of course impossibly impractical outside of an Internet bulletin board fantasy.

Defeating terrorists requires a counter culture hearts and minds operation. Boring and unsatisfying as it might sound to you. You starve the terrorists of support and then you have a chance of defeating them.

Give them a recruiting sergeant and you set yourself back decades.

Our system has required turning the UK into a quasi police state on surveillance. Not exactly something that we should encourage or accept in the long term.

We should win who we can win and move on those who we can't.

I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

MaxPB

surbiton said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

They will just go and buy kosher meat as they used to. Unless, of course, you ban kosher meat too............

Hardliners will not find that acceptable, plus the capacity doesn't exist.

steve_garner

Richard Nabavi, do you think the IMF Board is justified in retaining full confidence in Lagarde?

Gardenwalker

@MaxPB said:

"Moving in January!

It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

I wish you the best of luck on your move.

The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
(someone will correct me).

@Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

Richard_Nabavi

geoffw said:

Barcelona? Do you mean Madrid?

Oops, yes I do.

JWisemann

Does anyone get the impression Switzerland's mountain air has sent Max quite quite mad?

williamglenn

Pulpstar said:

Tim_B said:

Trump way past 270 in Electoral college voting.

He's up to 304, having lost 2 electoral votes.

Meanwhile Hillary has lost 4

I didn't expect a vote for one of Mr Eagles' relations.

surbiton

MaxPB said:

surbiton said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

An elderly headscarved patient with daughter in similar chador wished me "Happy Christmas" this morning at the end of the consultation.

Outward expressions such as dress are meaningless, it is what goes on inside that matters. As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"

If they are comfortable to live a secular lifestyle then they would be welcome to stay, otherwise it is a risk too far.

How are you going to work that out? Ducking stool?

It's actually pretty easy, small measures like banning halal slaughter and importation of halal meat, banning the burka and measures which would not sit well with Muslims who take a harder line view on life.

They will just go and buy kosher meat as they used to. Unless, of course, you ban kosher meat too............

Hardliners will not find that acceptable, plus the capacity doesn't exist.

What do you think they did 50 years ago before the arrival of big numbers ? I am not sure what you have got about Halal meat but do not have the same reservations about Kosher meat.

Gardenwalker

Richard_Nabavi said:

Err,

Gardenwalker said:

Nevertheless, you can't have an IMF lead found guilty of fraud - by negligence or otherwise.

She should resign.

Ms Lagarde wasn't found guilty of fraud.

And she is not, as @MP_SE seems to think, a 'convicted criminal'. The court specifically exonerated her of any criminal offence.

But I'm sure mere facts like these won't have much potency.

I stand corrected.

I still don't think it's a good look though.
She should go.

MaxPB

TOPPING said:

I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.

surbiton

isam said:

RoyalBlue said:

isam said:

wasd said:

isam said:

MaxPB said:

foxinsoxuk said:

First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.

Impossible.

In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK

In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.

So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.

Numbers please.

I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

so

1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066

The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.

Y0kel

Truck driver or accomplice arrested reported to be South Asian origin.

Opens a number of possible avenues of any allegiance.